Engineering Skills (Perkins Review)

Debate between Matt Hancock and Jim Dowd

Tuesday 10th December 2013 Westminster Hall

[Matthew Hancock]

That is an important point, which is part of a wider culture change. As a Minister in the Department for Education I am also responsible for the education end of the subject, along with the other Ministers in that Department. On the question of having an impact on the need for engineers, applications to study engineering at university have increased by 20% over the past three years, and in the past year the number of people in engineering apprenticeships has increased by 10%. Things are moving in the right direction, but I do not deny that there is much more to do, hence the Perkins report.

We accept the Perkins report, and we will take forward all the Government actions within it. It is important to set it in a wider context, however. That starts at an early age with stronger computing in the national curriculum from the age of eight and more of an emphasis on maths, inspirational careers advice from 12 years old onwards, new engineering qualifications for those aged 14 to 16, the introduction of tech levels and the tech bacc for 16 to 19-year-olds, the increase in take-up of A-level physics that we have talked about—we need to do more work on that to improve the gender balance—and the increase in engineering degrees and apprenticeships, not only at level 2 and the technician end but all the way up through higher apprenticeships. Members will have heard the announcement in the autumn statement of an additional 20,000 higher apprenticeships focused on engineering and technology. Within the lifespan of education from primary school onwards there is a focus at every level on improving rigour, improving responsiveness to the needs of employers and increasing the proportion of students who go into science, technology, engineering and maths. It is in that context that the Perkins report sits.

I agree wholeheartedly on the need for better communication, and the engineering profession has come together in the realisation of the importance of communication during the past couple of years. I have had many discussions with the leaders of various engineering industries on the implementation of Perkins. There is enthusiasm for it and there are mechanisms for it, but we need to make sure that those continue. The Big Bang Fair, which came to Parliament, is funded by Government. That funding has helped it to inspire thousands, but there is undoubtedly much more that we can do.

Given the shortage of time, I will write to my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire setting out in detail the Government response to all 22 of the recommendations, and I will make public a copy of the letter. I want to ensure that we drive the recommendations forward. I have no doubt that we will continue to debate the subject so that we can maintain the cross-party, cross-Government national campaign to ensure that the shortage of engineers is dealt with and the supply chain is wide open.

[Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab)]

I applaud the Minister’s effort and his enthusiasm. When does he imagine that a Minister with responsibility for this area, from whichever party, will be from an engineering background?

[Matthew Hancock]

As a former economist, I apologise for not fitting the criteria myself. But no doubt, with more engineers coming through, there will one day be the opportunity for that to happen.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Matt Hancock and Jim Dowd

Wednesday 17th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Matthew Hancock]

In Committee, a number of questions were asked about the scope of what was then clause 56—now clause 57—on copyright. The hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), who was a Minister in the Department at the time,agreed to reflect on the clause and we have also had further discussions with interested parties.

The Government have considered this point carefully and think that amendments to clause 57 are the best way to address the concerns expressed by Committee members and industry stakeholders. I reassure hon. Members that the policy intent behind the clause remains unchanged. The clause was never intended to give the Government the ability to change copyright exceptions in ways that we cannot already change them and I hope that the amendments now make that abundantly clear.

Changes to copyright exceptions are subject to a tightly prescribed list set out in the EU information society directive. The European Communities Act 1972 provide the mechanism by which EU law is applied at a national level—in this case on copyright exceptions. The clause will permit the Secretary of State to make any changes that remove or narrow an exception without affecting the maximum criminal penalties that Parliament has set. Without the amendment, the criminal penalties might have had to be reduced and I do not think that is the aim of the Bill.

The stakeholders who had raised concerns about the clause, including the British Copyright Council, UK Music, the Publishers Association, the Creators’ Rights Alliance and the Premier League, have written to the Secretary of State confirming their support for the Government’s amendments.

[Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab)]

The Minister mentioned the enormous concern across the creative sector about the clause and, more particularly, its purpose when it was first introduced. His reference to the fact that all it does is endorse existing law will have confused many people, as they will have wondered why, if that was so, the clause was needed at all. If it is needed, and if the amendments we are discussing go some way to addressing the problem, can he give us an assurance that any exception arising from Hargreaves, the Intellectual Property Office or any other source will be treated as primary legislation? If he cannot do that, will he undertake that every piece of secondary legislation will be introduced individually and will include a comprehensive impact assessment before it is brought to this House?

[Matthew Hancock]

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that any proposed exceptions will be the subject of secondary legislation and will therefore be debated. Each separate element of a statutory instrument can be debated—that is the function of the secondary legislation procedure.

Amendment 75 would require the Secretary of State to take into account any feasibility study undertaken of which organisation is best placed to issue licences authorising the use of orphan works.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matthew Hancock]

I welcome the Opposition Front Benchers’ support for the two Government amendments in this group. I want to reiterate the value of intellectual property, which is underpinned by our copyright regime, to the UK economy not only in the past but, I imagine, increasingly in the future. A strong IP regime is vital to the creative industries, in which we thrive and are hugely successfully. Ensuring that that regime is right and strong is a crucial part of having a strong economic future. The Digital Economy Act 2010, which strengthened many areas of law, and the extension of the length of copyright in music indicate the Government’s commitment to a strong and supportive intellectual property regime.

I will go through the points that Members have made. It is simply not correct to suggest that these proposals have not been widely consulted on. Indeed, they are based on recommendations in the Hargreaves review, which itself drew on extensive evidence. The response to that review was followed by a formal consultation, which received almost 500 written responses. There has been extensive work with interested parties following that. I reiterate the Government’s willingness to engage with stakeholders including Members, many of whom have a long-standing interest in the subject. Members throughout the House share not just birthdays but interests, and their engagement must and will continue.

The Government will announce their policy intent with regard to the exceptions recommended in Hargreaves this autumn. Exceptions can be introduced, extended and updated using the existing provisions of section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972. The proposed way forward represents no change to how exceptions can be introduced and updated under the existing provisions. The problem is that the criminal penalties available in statute brought in under that Act carry a maximum penalty of two years’ imprisonment. In the case of many of the offences that we are discussing, penalties are longer than two years and can be up to 10 years. It is in the interest of those who want to ensure that their copyrights are protected to make sure that criminal penalties are that high. We do not want to have to bring them down to two years, in order to use the 1972 Act. Clause 57 is not needed to implement Hargreaves, but it allows us to do so in a way consistent with the existing, stronger criminal penalties, which I know the industry and many stakeholders support. Having received that reassurance, the British Copyright Council, UK Music, the Publishers Association and the Premier League are happy to support the Government amendments.

[Jim Dowd]

On that point, why does the Minister not do what was suggested by the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) and simply put in a tightened disciplinary regime and nothing else? Why is that so difficult for the Government to accept, if that is the sole purpose of the clause?

[Matthew Hancock]

Because we want to ensure, as and when technical amendments are considered, that we do not have to water down criminal penalties because of the way that the measures are introduced.

We are not in a position to announce a precise timetable for work on orphan works, but we expect it to be concluded during 2013 and certainly before any regulations are made. I commit the Government to discussing the details with Opposition Front-Bench Members, and others, during that process.

The Government amendments have been tabled with strong support for the IP regime on which much of our industry is based, and although the Government recognise the probing nature of the Opposition amendments, and commit to continued analysis of and engagement on those issues, we do not think that they should be included in the Bill.

Amendment 23 agreed to.

Clause 57

Power to change exceptions: copyright and rights in performances

Amendment made: 24, page 47, line 33, at end insert—

“( ) But regulations under this section may make only such provision as may be made under subsection (2) of section 2 of the European Communities Act 1972 or such provision as could be made under that subsection if paragraph 1(1)(d) of Schedule 2 to that Act did not apply.’.—(Matthew Hancock.)

Clause 68

Extent

Amendments made: 31, page 59, line 34, leave out ‘17(1)(c)’ and insert ‘17(2A)’.

Amendment 32, page 60, line 14, after ‘50,’ insert ‘[Osborne estate],’.

Amendment 33, page 60, line 14, after ‘54’ insert ‘and [Estate agency work]’.

Amendment 34, page 60, line 15, at end insert—

‘() section [Civil liability for breach of health and safety duties] extends only to England and Wales and Scotland except that it also extends to Northern Ireland so far as Parts 1 and 4 of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 extend there,’.

Amendment 35, page 60, line 16, leave out ‘section’ and insert ‘sections’.

Amendment 36, page 60, line 16, after ‘52’ insert

‘, [Equality Act 2010: third party harassment of employees and applicants] and [Equality Act 2010: obtaining information for proceedings]’.

Amendment 37, page 60, line 16, leave out ‘extends’ and insert

‘and paragraphs 1, 52 to 54, 56 and 61 of Schedule [Adjudicators: minor and consequential amendments] extend’.

Amendment 38, page 60, line 17, leave out ‘section’ and insert ‘sections’.

Amendment 39, page 60, line 17, before ‘51’ insert

‘[Listed buildings in England: agreements and orders granting listed building consent],’.

Amendment 40, page 60, line 17, before ‘51’ insert

‘[Listed buildings in England: certificates of lawfulness],’.

Amendment 41, page 60, line 17, after ‘51’ insert ‘ and [Adjudicators]’.

Amendment 42, page 60, line 17, leave out first ‘Schedule’ and insert ‘Schedules’.

Amendment 43, page 60, line 17, before ‘16’ insert

‘and [Local listed building consent orders: procedure]’.

Amendment 44, page 60, line 17, after ‘17’ insert

‘, Schedule [Adjudicators: bankruptcy applications by debtors and bankruptcy orders] and paragraphs 2 to 51, 55, 57 to 60 and 62 of Schedule [Adjudicators: minor and consequential amendments]’.

Amendment 45, page 60, line 22, at end insert

‘except that section [Power to provide for equal pay audits] extends only to England and Wales and Scotland’.—(Matthew Hancock.)



Clause 69

Commencement

Amendments made: 46, page 60, line 26, at end insert—

‘() section [Osborne estate];’.

Amendment 47, page 60, line 26, at end insert—

‘() section [Power to provide for equal pay audits];’.—(Matthew Hancock.)