Protection of Freedoms Bill

Neil Carmichael Excerpts

Tuesday 1st March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Priti Patel]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments. I absolutely agree. This shows not only the extent to which we need the Bill but the extent to which some of these powers have got out of control. CCTV must be focused on the correct areas and used in the right way. In relation to CCTV and many of the other areas covered in the Bill, the state has gone too far and has too many intrusive powers. It is shameful that the UK is now regarded as the only endemic surveillance society in Europe, placing us alongside China, Russia and Malaysia.

Although there will often be a fine line between the need, on one hand, to protect the freedom and privacy of individuals and, on the other, to curtail those protections for the benefit of the wider public interest, I welcome the new safeguards on liberty in the Bill, rebalancing the law in favour of our freedoms. It creates standards for the use of CCTV through a code of practice and a surveillance camera commissioner, and that provides more transparency and accountability, which is to be welcomed. I look forward to reading the commissioner’s report in due course and seeing where local authorities, in particular, and other organisations are in breach of the code and, in effect, wasting taxpayers’ money by being far too over-zealous in their surveillance activities.

However, I also believe that CCTV has a very important role to play in the fight against crime, and these measures have the potential to strengthen its effectiveness. Can the Minister therefore give an assurance that the code will also recognise the benefits of some key and vital uses of CCTV? Perhaps that can be done under clause 29(3)(a), which relates to the provisions in the code about

“whether to use surveillance camera systems”.

In the commissioner’s report, perhaps the details on best practice could include how CCTV is being used effectively to detect and prevent crime.

I also say to the Minister that my constituents obviously do not want to move away from the use of CCTV to the point of being overly cautious and fearful of using the technology. We have heard examples from the constituencies of many right hon. and hon. Members. I trust that, in drawing up the code, the Minister will take these points into account. On Friday, when I meet Witham Industrial Watch, a group of businesses that has come together to introduce CCTV across Witham’s various industrial estates, it will want an assurance on this matter. In particular, it will want to hear that we will not create unnecessary burdens on businesses or small shopkeepers who use CCTV in the right way to protect their business interests, staff and property from theft, damage and attack.

Finally, I congratulate the Government on the provisions to restore common sense to the vetting and barring system. We have heard a great deal about that aspect of the Bill in this debate. I am interested in this matter in relation to volunteering, engagement and participation in our communities. We have heard endlessly, for years and years, about the additional cost and bureaucracy of the system, and about how it prevents people from participating in our communities. In my view, that is a bad thing. Change is long overdue to bring back some common sense. I have heard the various views this evening and although we should never water down safeguards and protections, I think that the previous system—Labour’s system—had more to do with treating everybody with a degree of suspicion and almost like criminals than with protecting children and vulnerable groups.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this issue, and I think there is another element to it. Too many employers seem to think that because CRB checks are made, they do not have to make checks themselves. We must be alert to that danger.

[Priti Patel]

I agree absolutely on that point. There is no doubt that this issue needs some rebalancing and some common sense. This system has had a devastating impact on people who have been wrongly referenced. There should be a more proportionate approach. Hopefully the mistakes will be reduced as well. I want to see measures that protect the vulnerable and our children. This Bill is a step in the right direction and it is a proportionate response in this area.

Proposed Directive (Information Systems)

Neil Carmichael Excerpts

Thursday 3rd February 2011 Commons Chamber

[James Brokenshire]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point, and, in striking the right balance, we approach those issues with the rights of the individual’s freedoms and liberties very much at the forefront of this Government’s mind. We believe that the directive is important and will add value, but we will approach those issues with liberty and freedom at the forefront of our mind.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

I have been a victim of mobile telephone fraud, so will the directive have the scope to deal with cybercrime in connection with such fraud?

[James Brokenshire]

The directive is very much focused on computers and computer systems, rather than on telephones and mobiles, but, as telephone calls and Skype add to computers’ ability to facilitate contact, such communication might be brought within the scope of the directive.

Oral Answers to Questions

Neil Carmichael Excerpts

Monday 24th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

The closure of police stations is an operational matter for the police, but the right hon. Lady should know perfectly well that under the previous Labour Government some 400 police stations closed. What responsibility does she accept for that?

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

T4. In my constituency, there is a healthy appetite for more policemen actually on the beat. Will the Minister join me in welcoming the fact that the chief constable of Gloucestershire has reorganised his force and has increased the number of policemen on the beat, from 563 to 661?

[Nick Herbert]

I welcome the action taken in Gloucestershire. The chair of its police authority has said that

“we are making sure that what we do is increase our capacity to police and not increase our costs.”

That shows that it can be done. Other forces are either protecting neighbourhood policing or even increasing it. I note that the chair of Gloucestershire police authority is also the chairman of the Association of Police Authorities.

Drugs Policy

Neil Carmichael Excerpts

Thursday 16th December 2010 Westminster Hall

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

My name is Neil Carmichael, in case there is any doubt about my being anonymous.

I welcome this important debate. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth) not only on securing it, but on having the courage to say something different from what he has said before. I do not agree with him, but it is right and proper to have such a debate from time to time, because in respect of the current drugs strategy we are looking back to the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. Time has marched on. This is a good opportunity to review the situation.

Decriminalising drugs and drug use will not be helpful. Instead, what do we do about people who are on drugs? That is the more important and immediate issue.

Colleagues have mentioned the use of methadone, which is one of the big issues that we have to confront. Methadone is not a satisfactory solution to the problem, and we simply have to state that. Let me give hon. Members an interesting statistic. When the Labour Government’s programme kicked off back in 2000 or 2001, it was spending £60 million on methadone. By the time it had finished, the figure was more than £400 million, which is an astonishing amount to spend on something that really is not solving the problem. The first key point, therefore, is to recognise that the methadone strategy is the wrong one and that we need to look much more carefully at getting people off drugs altogether.

Another startling statistic is that fewer than 5% of people are in a form of drugs treatment whose task it is to get them off drugs altogether. We are therefore not only pursuing a methadone strategy with wild abandon, but being very reckless, given that we know that there are glittering examples of good practice, where people are treated for drug addiction and leave the system—usually very speedily—with a satisfactory outcome.

We have one of those glittering examples in Gloucestershire. The Nelson Trust was visited by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and its work has won an award from the Centre for Social Justice. That is quite right, too, because a huge number of people go to the trust with a drug addiction and a large proportion come out completely free of drugs. That is the direction of travel that we should be encouraging, and the Government have actually signalled that that is the direction of travel. We need to be sure that we get resources to organisations such as the Nelson Trust so that they can deal with the problem.

As a result of a question to the Secretary of State for Health, the right hon. Gentleman discovered that most of the money that we spend on treatment is being spent on methadone. We need to transfer resources away from methadone and towards taking people off drugs altogether. It is important that we flag up to the Minister right now the fact that organisations such as the Nelson Trust really need to be seen, examined and then supported, because there is clear evidence that they work—and that they work well.

My right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice is also signalling an interest in dealing with drugs. He has noted that too many people are on drugs in prison; indeed, it is probably easier to get drugs in prison than it is on the outside, which is an astonishing fact. Of course, if we are talking about comparisons, we should remember that it costs about £675 a week to treat somebody and take them off drugs, but, as we know, it costs more than £800 to keep somebody in prison. We need to act on that, and the Secretary of State for Justice is doing just that in the prison reforms in his recent Green Paper.

It is really important that we start supporting organisations such as the Nelson Trust with finance and Government policy, because it is essential that we tackle this question rigorously. The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence has pointed out that nearly half of all crime is related in some way or other to drug use and abuse. That is a staggering fact, which signals not only the scale of the problem, but the gains that we could make if we simply tackled addiction in the way that the Nelson Trust does and other organisations can. We really need to focus on a strategy that moves us away from methadone and towards getting people 100% off drugs.

The Nelson Trust recognises, as we all should, that this is about more than just the immediate issue of getting someone off drugs. We need to provide family support and opportunities for people to transfer into work. We also need to sort out what can sometimes be pretty difficult housing circumstances. When somebody is on drugs, of course, all those things and more become very problematic. To get somebody off drugs, therefore, we also need to tackle some of those surrounding issues. The Nelson Trust has pioneered some really good work on that, and that is the direction of travel that we should take. I finish with a strong appeal that we think less about methadone and more about getting people off drugs for ever.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Neil Carmichael Excerpts

Monday 13th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

I begin by paying tribute to the police in my constituency, who have been helping to deal with the protests over tuition fees. We have had a few minor actions and in each case the police have demonstrated fantastic support.

It has been a great pleasure listening to the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears). She is heading in the right direction, though not far enough and certainly not fast enough. It is right that we consider the question of accountability in the policing of Britain.

Let us talk first about the commissioners. It is important that they are elected, that there is just one of them, and that they are responsible for planning, as outlined in the Bill. The electorate want an interface with a single person who will speak on their behalf and deal with the issues that arise in everyday policing. My one concern about the disqualification list is whether a recently retired chief constable is the right person to be elected as a commissioner. That needs to be discussed in Committee.

I listened carefully to the shadow Home Secretary. He mentioned Councillor Rob Garnham, the chairman of my police authority in Gloucestershire. Councillor Garnham is well known, probably because he has launched a campaign to save police authorities, not because of the work he did as chairman of the police authority. I believe that the membership and function of police authorities are not properly understood by the electorate. We could test that by asking people who they think is on their police authority. Some people would look rather surprised. They certainly would not be able to provide an answer, because the police authority is just not recognised as the equipment for maintaining police accountability.

It is right to introduce commissioners, and it is right to get rid of police authorities. It is also necessary to improve value for money in our police forces, because police authorities have just not exercised that function terribly well. I heard only today just how many police forces buy the same equipment from the same old firm, without going through proper competitive tendering, driving down the price or saying, “If you don’t do a better price, we’ll go somewhere else.” The process is too sloppy, and it needs to be tightened up.

The Bill includes some other interesting areas, one of which is licensing and the role of local communities and local authorities, because it is important to ensure that decisions are properly enforced locally. That is one of the key things. Local authorities already have a useful set of powers, but the question is about ensuring that they are deployed and that the decisions are made to stick.

The Localism Bill will enhance the role of the community, so we need to link it to the Bill before us. We have to engineer a change not just in powers, but in culture, so that local authorities are keen to make decisions properly, to be ambitious, to work hard for their communities and to be ready to make different decisions from their neighbours’ and more interesting decisions for themselves.

On the cost of drink, I am sympathetic to higher prices, because it is important that we deal with binge drinking. One can go to France to buy cheap beer—there it is, at LeClerc, the local supermarket. One can also buy lots of cheap wine, so other countries have cheap drink, but the French, for example, do not have much binge drinking. That is something to be discussed, and we need to look at the causes of binge drinking, because it is a cultural issue.

[Andrew Griffiths]

My hon. Friend knows that 70% of all alcohol sold in this country is sold through supermarkets. Is not the danger that all the measures before us put extra burdens on pubs, which have to deal with the consequences? The Minister will say that supermarkets can be controlled within the late-night levy, but the problem is clearly not supermarkets selling alcohol after 12 o’clock, but people buying alcohol at 6 o’clock in the evening and drinking it before they go out. The pubs and clubs then have to deal with the consequences. Do we not need to tackle binge drinking and supermarkets’ irresponsible pricing if we are to tackle the problem of alcohol-fuelled violence?

[Neil Carmichael]

That is why I am sympathetic to dealing with the problems in supermarkets. My hon. Friend is right: we do have cheap booze; it is bought in bulk; it is consumed in a bingey way, which does cause huge problems; and we have to address the issue.

We had a debate about pubs last week, but let us repeat the point that we must recognise the pub as a useful, controlled environment in which people can drink.

[Robert Halfon]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech, but following the previous intervention does he not agree that alcohol sold in supermarkets is often bought by people who cannot otherwise afford it? Surely, the only restrictions should therefore be on so-called alcopops and drinks like that.

[Neil Carmichael]

I thank my hon. Friend and appreciate all the interventions—the two of them, at least—that I have had. He makes a good point about alcopops, and we need to think about that, because we can be too draconian, but I shall make three general points about drinks. First, we have to think about binge drinking and its causes; secondly, we need to look at the role of supermarkets in supplying the drink; and, thirdly, we need to bear in mind the strength of the drink.

[Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making some very important points about the balance of responsibility for binge drinking. Does he agree that the burden of the balance of responsibility is placed unduly on the pubs and not sufficiently on the supermarkets? Regulation focuses on the pubs and there is insufficient regulation of the supermarkets. Does he think that this is an opportunity to redress that balance?

[Neil Carmichael]

Funnily enough, my hon. Friend is absolutely right. When one considers the number of regulations and bureaucratic requirements that a pub has to fulfil, we wonder why people want to be landlords. They do so because they enjoy the job and do a great thing for communities, but they are often discouraged from getting on with the job because of all the work that they have to do. My hon. Friend is right about supermarkets. If we consider the abolition of resale price maintenance and the relentless march of supermarkets in number and size over the past few years, we realise that supermarkets are not controlled as much as they should be. We need to consider some sort of ombudsman system to ensure that supermarkets have a more responsible approach to drinking.

The other thing about supermarkets is that they are quite powerful. They are able to control price, and supply and demand. We must recognise that. As a farmer, I remember being told what prices my products would be simply because the group of five supermarkets concerned knew in advance how much they would pay. Let us remember that supermarkets have power and let us be prepared to address the question of binge drinking with that in mind. However, we should also have in mind the restrictions and problems that pubs have been confronting over the past few years.

In summary, let us be confident about the role of the commissioners. Government Members think that they are a great thing and one Labour Member obviously supports that direction of travel. We must accept that our police authorities do not set the world on fire in discussing policing policy, and we must think very carefully about value for money and ensuring that police forces are much more responsive to people’s needs. Is it not simply right for local communities to feel that they are being listened to? Sometimes just the act of listening can lift a huge amount of confusion and alarm from local communities, who are often bewildered by other more complicated arrangements for expressing themselves. The Bill is good. It is the right kind of measure and it is consistent with localism and with law and order. Above all, it is consistent with setting a useful agenda for responsible behaviour in our society.

Anti-Slavery Day

Neil Carmichael Excerpts

Thursday 14th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern), who made an important point about the anger and determination of people 200 years ago to do something about slavery, and about how we need a similar fury now about the outrages we are aware of here. Funnily enough, my constituency played a major part in the abolition of slavery in so far as one of my predecessors promoted legislation to abolish it in the 1830s, and an archway was erected to celebrate the end of slavery—it is one of the few such archways still remaining. The sad thing is that it celebrates the end of something that has not quite ended, and we need to bear that in mind in this very important debate. We need to excite that sense of fury and anger about slavery.

I want to make several points. The first is that we have to get a measure of the problem, and my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) did exactly that. The fact that 27 million people across the globe are in slavery is simply outrageous. We cannot tolerate it.

My second point is about the importance of border control. I hope that the Minister will highlight how that will be strengthened. It is critical that we tackle border control issues, and it is very important that we deliver meaningful results.

The Chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), put his finger on an important point. It is not just that they have come here that matters; where they came from and how they got here also matter. That international dimension needs a focus too, because we cannot just sit here on an island and say, “We’re doing okay. How about the rest of you?” We need to take an international attitude. At the end of the day, as recipients of the problem, even if we deal with specific cases more satisfactorily, a threat will still remain, because people will still be trafficking from other places. We therefore need to use our influence to tackle the source of the problem and those who traffic.

That brings me to the EU directive against trafficking mentioned by several people today. As I understand it, we will be reviewing our position once that directive is confirmed. Furthermore, of course, we are signatories to the Council of Europe convention on action against trafficking, which is robust in its attitude. However, I hope that the Minister will look carefully at the EU directive, because if we are serious about taking action, we need to consider its impact.

I want to talk about the rule of law. A lot of people have talked about the legislation and measures already in place. Yes, they probably are in place, and we may need to strengthen some of them, but in this case the rule of law is being flagrantly abused by many. It is, therefore, a question of enforcement as well. We have to get the question of enforcement right, because, at the end of the day, a country such as ours should be able to pack a punch in that respect.

[Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that we should applaud an initiative by the Metropolitan police to press for legislation that would allow editors who continue to publish sex adverts that can then be linked to trafficking to be arrested and tried in court? Does he agree with the words of the deputy Mayor for London responsible for policing? He said:

“We don’t allow drug dealers to advertise in newspapers so why should we allow traffickers to advertise prostitution?”

--- Later in debate ---

[Neil Carmichael]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for—Enfield?

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

Ealing—always Ealing!

[Neil Carmichael]

Oh, yes, and I know where the hon. Gentleman comes from too.

I shall finish with this point. None of us in this House can be confident of our own dignity while others are entrapped or enslaved and therefore do not have theirs.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

Crime and Policing

Neil Carmichael Excerpts

Wednesday 8th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Graham Evans]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. They went on to talk about backroom staff and how they can reduce significant labour costs among the back office, civilian staff whom the police employ. They also discussed putting back on to the beat those policemen who, for whatever reason, undertake back-office duties.

Unnecessary paperwork also keeps front-line police officers in the station, and the two chief constables talked about ways of reducing it, as the House has discussed over the past few hours, and ensuring that officers return to front-line services. I do not try to paint a pretty picture, however, because there are some difficult decisions to make. Those chief constables have to make them, but they are going to do their utmost to ensure that front-line services are not affected.

I come from a business background and have personal experience of trying to cut costs while adding value and ensuring that, at the front end, customers do not see the consequences of those cuts. The police are in a very good position to do something similar. Time will tell, but I hope that it bears out my belief that the situation is not as gloomy as some people say it is. However, there are some difficult decisions to make.

Having spent some time with the two chief constables, I visited Runcorn police station, where a new inspector was in town. He told me that he was bringing a new broom out of the cupboard and going through the police station. He had managed to increase the clear-up rate in that area by 20% within a few short weeks. I asked him what sorts of things he did to enable him to achieve that, and he said that he had found that there was misinterpretation of correct procedures and of who are the best people to clear up the casework. I was struck by the fact that there are examples of best practice that can be shared between divisions and, indeed, police forces. Many police forces do not communicate with one another. If cases of best practice were communicated between one constabulary and another, efficiency savings could be made.

A lot of it can be down to leadership and management. A sergeant in Runcorn who had been in the Cheshire constabulary for 25 years told me that he had spent most of his career arresting members of the same family. I found it quite disturbing that one could spend a 25-year career arresting the grandfathers and fathers of the same family. I cannot help feeling that we do not go to the core of the problem of continuous crime. Antisocial behaviour orders have a lot of merit. However, unless we get in to see the families who have blighted the community of the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears), and so many communities in my constituency, and stop them repeating these crimes, it goes on and on, with three generations of the same family being unemployed, facing social deprivation, and causing unnecessary and disproportionate problems within their communities. If we could get into these families, one by one, their communities would not have these problems.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

Of course we must keep our eye on the public sector deficit, but I hope that my hon. Friend will join me in celebrating the fact that the Gloucestershire constabulary will end up with more policemen out and about as a result of reforms driven by the recent expenditure announcements. That is good news for the good people of Stroud, Dursley, Cam and elsewhere. There are more policemen out and about compared with last year, which is great news.

[Graham Evans]

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s contribution.

If we keep on arresting and dealing with the same families within the same communities, we will keep on going round in circles and having these conversations time and again in years to come.

I pay tribute to some of the good work that was done by right hon. and hon. Members on the Opposition Benches during their time in government, with measures such as Sure Start, which gets into families at a very early stage to try to give them the best start in life, so that as the children grow older they should become responsible citizens. In my experience as a police officer, and when speaking to the police officers in the Cheshire constabulary, I have found that too many young people go off the rails too soon. That is why I would like some of the good work of Sure Start to be followed up. Other agencies, working with the police, need to get involved in getting individuals off drug and alcohol abuse. Jobcentre Plus should get involved with these people to try to get them making a proactive and genuine contribution to the communities that they have blighted. I appreciate that this is a long-term thing that was started by the previous Government during the past 13 years, but an awful lot of work still needs to be done in certain communities in my constituency.

I will be supporting the amendment, because something has to change. Directly elected commissioners may or may not be a good idea that may or may not work. In my experience as a police constable, having worked in these communities, I have seen that the Cheshire constabulary is doing a good job, but I believe it could do better, and I would like directly elected commissioners to be given at least a fighting chance.