NHS Bursary

Nic Dakin Excerpts

Monday 11th January 2016 Westminster Hall

[Paul Scully]

Absolutely.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman is spelling out the case clearly. He will recognise that the introduction of fees for the teacher training year has led to a decrease in the number of people coming forward for teacher training. Perhaps that is a lesson that needs to be learned for student nurses.

[Paul Scully]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention.

I will bring my comments to an end with a few questions. The system needs to change. Not everyone agrees with me, but a number of people, even people who want to keep a sense of the bursary system, believe that the bursary system is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. The petition, and the discussion around it, is the beginning of the process feeding into that change. Even those who are not happy with the proposed loan structure can help to shape the system over the next few months—in reality, it will have to be ready for the academic year after next—so that it is ready for students applying for the 2017-18 academic year. Whatever the final structure, student nurses must understand what they are applying for, how they will be funded and what the repercussions will be for repayments. We have a few months to work on it and to raise issues with Ministers.

I have a few specific questions for the Minister that come from the petition. How will specialist courses remain viable under the change? Podiatry, for example, tends to be undersubscribed—places on podiatry courses have to go through clearing year in, year out—so it is important that we consider how we can have viable courses for the services that we need.

Will trusts, especially foundation trusts—foundation trusts have proved that they can work through their own budgets by virtue of being given foundation status—be given the freedom to help repay student loans as part of a pay package, as was suggested by the Council of Deans of Health? As a result of that, what more can we do to retain nurses in the NHS after graduation, perhaps through contract agreements, rather than seeing them move abroad? Will there be enough placements to take on the proposed increase in the number of trainees? We spoke about that a little earlier.

--- Later in debate ---

[Wes Streeting]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that point, which I did not raise in the earlier Adjournment debate. Since that debate took place I have seen an article by Crystal Oldman in Independent Nurse magazine, which expressed concern about our ability to recruit nurses into community-based settings. If we are trying to prevent patients from presenting at accident and emergency, which is important to alleviate waiting times and the burden on A&E departments, it is vital that people can access timely care and support in the community. I do not believe the Government have fully considered that, but I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.

In my Adjournment debate I also asked the Government whether they thought it was fair that students from the most deprived backgrounds should have their grants taken away while some of the wealthiest people in our society received tax cuts. I am not surprised that I did not receive an answer to that question, but it is a fair one. A lot of people wonder how, in straitened times, it is possible for the Government to find money for tax cuts for the wealthiest, but we cannot find money to ensure that people who perform vital functions in the NHS receive the support they need to get them through their training.

I asked the Minister in that debate how much debt the Government expect to write off because those indebted by the reforms are unable to pay their debts in full. That question was not answered. However, we know that in the case of the tuition fees brought in by the coalition Government, the current Government expect that the majority of students will see their debts written off, at cost to the taxpayer, further down the line.

I wonder about the Chancellor. Following him on economic policy at the moment is a bit like following a drunk driver: one minute he tells us that things are fantastic, and then the next minute he tells us that something called “the global economy” might have an impact on our domestic economy. I am glad that he has finally got that point, but I do not believe that he is currently being straight with the House and the public about how he intends to “fix the roof”, whether the sun is shining or not. It will be no good if some poor Chancellor 30 years down the line has to find huge amounts of money for debt write-off. This Chancellor needs to be clearer about where the money is really coming from.

On that point, I asked in the Adjournment debate which Department—the Department of Health or the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills—would meet the cost of servicing the resource accounting and budgeting charge for student loan debt. That question was not answered, although I am sure the Treasury and both those Departments have a view. It seems that the Government have not reached a clear position, and they really ought to have done so before embarking on this course of action.

I also asked the Minister about the Barnett consequentials for health education budgets in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. He told the House that it was a matter for Her Majesty’s Treasury, but I am afraid that we did not get any real detail about what the impact on those nations would be.

Will the Minister also say how clinical placements will be funded under the current loans system? He tells us that he has started discussions with Universities UK about that, but we would have expected the Government to have those discussions before embarking on a policy of this nature.

I also asked the Government whether they were at all concerned that applications from mature students might fall, given the detrimental impact that the coalition Government’s student finance reforms had on mature and part-time student numbers. The Minister did not give a reply, but we have heard in interventions this afternoon that that is a legitimate concern. We keep being told that all has been well since the coalition introduced the new tuition fees regime, and that student numbers in higher education are excellent. It is true that overall student numbers have gone up, but I do not think that there has been the necessary level of analysis about whether people are being deterred from applying. It is all very well saying that the numbers have gone up, but that does not tell me whether the regime deterred people from applying. However, we know for certain that it has had a particularly detrimental impact on the numbers of mature and part-time students. The issue of mature students ought to weigh heavily on the Government’s mind before they decide to proceed down this course on nursing bursaries, because it is clear that there will be big problems for the nursing profession if mature student numbers fall.

[Nic Dakin]

On that point, it is important for areas such as north Lincolnshire, which struggle to attract new graduates, to be able to grow our own graduates, and mature students are a major part of that. A fall in their number will particularly affect areas such as ours, which new graduates do not see as particularly attractive.

[Wes Streeting]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend, and I have another concern. In my Adjournment debate I asked the Minister to confirm whether mature students would be eligible to apply for a second loan, and he confirmed that they would be able to do so. However, that does not reassure me that the change to bursaries will not have a detrimental impact. If a mature student has already taken out a significant loan for a first undergraduate degree and still has some of that loan debt outstanding, given that they are closer to retirement than the stereotypical 18-year-old entrant, will they really want to take on additional debt? There are major question marks about that, and again, the Government ought to have done the research and analysis on it before embarking on this policy direction.

I am conscious of the time and the number of Members who wish to speak, so I turn finally to the question of process. This Thursday, a Delegated Legislation Committee will be convened to debate the abolition of student grants for all students, including the cohort we are talking about today. It is absolutely appalling that the Government are seeking to use the device of delegated legislation to put through such a major change to student finance. Whatever disagreements I had with previous Labour Governments about their higher education policy, at least they were courageous enough to bring their policies to the House of Commons, put them through the House of Lords, justify them and put them in the full light of scrutiny by right hon. and hon. Members.

This use of a Delegated Legislation Committee is part of a wider pattern of behaviour by this Government, who seek to ignore scrutiny. They seem to believe that a majority of 12 on a minority of the vote gives them carte blanche to do whatever they like. The level of public outcry, not to mention the concern expressed by Members from all parties in the House, means that the Government ought to behave far more transparently.

I asked the Minister in my adjournment debate to give the House an assurance that students studying nursing, midwifery and allied health subjects would not see their tuition fees and debts hiked up even further than has been suggested, but I was not answered. We know from newspaper speculation that the Government are considering increasing tuition fees above inflation, and we also know that the Cabinet Office is trying to find ways of avoiding a vote in both Houses, which is shameful.

Similarly, I asked the Minister to give the House an assurance that we would have a full debate and a vote if the Government chose to extend tuition fees to nursing, midwifery and allied health subject courses. The Minister told the House that he could not give us a definite answer to that question yet. I hope that he can do so this afternoon, and that he will confirm that we will have a full debate in the House of Commons and in the House of Lords, and that right hon. and hon. Members and noble peers will have the chance to make their voices heard and to put the issue to a vote.

Finally, I asked the Minister to commit to meeting student representatives to discuss their concerns, and he said that he was happy to do so. I spoke this weekend to one of the organisers of the protest, Danielle Tiplady, who has done a remarkable job in campaigning on this issue and in raising awareness among her colleagues. I hope the Minister will commit today to meeting her and other student representatives, so that he can hear at first hand the powerful testimony that we heard at the demonstration at the weekend.

We should all be concerned about the direction of this policy, and I am glad to see so many right hon. and hon. Members here this afternoon. Given that there are other debates taking place, including on Syria, which is a really big matter that concerns all of us, it is great that we have had such a big turnout this afternoon. I hope that helps to encourage the Government to think again.