EU Withdrawal Agreement: Legal Advice

Nick Thomas-Symonds Excerpts

Tuesday 13th November 2018 Commons Chamber

[Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)]

Throughout this well informed debate, we have rightly heard a great deal about the important principle of the confidentiality of legal advice and lawyer-client privilege. However, it also needs to be said that the Government are no ordinary client and the position of the Attorney General, a political appointment, means he is no ordinary lawyer. Let us be clear about the Law Officers convention on not disclosing legal advice and what it actually consists of.

Reference has been made to the Cabinet Office ministerial code, which states:

“The fact that the Law Officers have advised or have not advised and the content of their advice must not be disclosed outside Government without their authority.”

The 24th edition of “Erskine May”, which has been cited by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) and other Members, states:

“The purpose of this convention is to enable the government to obtain full and frank legal advice in confidence. Therefore, the opinions of the law officers of the crown, being confidential, are not usually laid before Parliament”.

Then, “Erskine May” specifically refers to the situation where

“a minister deems it expedient that such opinions should be made known for the information of the House”.

Put simply, we on this side of the House wholly respect the Law Officers convention, but it is not the case that the convention means the Government shall not disclose legal advice whatever the circumstances; the convention is not an absolute ban on releasing legal advice given. The Government should not hide behind the convention, because there is clear discretion for them to decide whether or not this is a situation when the advice should be laid before Parliament. It is for the Government to tell us why they want to keep MPs, including their own, in the dark about the full content of the legal advice on the withdrawal agreement and why this situation is not exceptional.

I listened carefully to the concessions made by the Minister for the Cabinet Office in his speech, but my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) is entirely right to say that they simply do not go far enough. First, we are told that a statement will be published. As many Government Members said, that statement is different from the legal advice. The safeguard that we have been offered—that the thrust of the two documents will be the same and that all nuances and all other things will be included—is, apparently, the resignation of the Attorney General in circumstances in which they were not the same. The Attorney General was not even present to give that assurance; the person who gave it was actually the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), in his thoughtful speech. That is the only safeguard on that that the House has been offered.

Secondly, we are told that the Attorney General will give an oral statement to the House and be questioned by Members, but that actually means that the Attorney General will have seen a document on which Members of Parliament are expected then to interrogate and forensically question him without seeing the same document themselves. That is exactly what the situation would be. The concessions do not go far enough.

There is no point in saying that the publication of the advice will somehow prejudice ongoing negotiations, because by the time it is published, in time for it to be considered before the House votes, the negotiations on the backstop will be completed—if, of course, the Prime Minister has reached a deal. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer) made clear, we are asking not for a blow-by-blow account, every step of the way, but for a specific piece of legal advice on something of profound importance. That is what is crucial.

Our constituents’ jobs, businesses, livelihoods and living standards all depend on the outcome of the negotiations. The issue is one of fundamental importance for this House and its consideration of a matter that is so vital for the future of our country. As my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd put it, the whole constitutional integrity of the United Kingdom is at stake. It is difficult to think of a more compelling case for exceptionality and for the disclosure of legal advice. The idea that disclosing it in these most exceptional of circumstances would somehow damage the Law Officers convention has no credibility at all. Indeed, in these circumstances it is right that all right hon. and hon. Members can see the whole picture—that the Government provide the fullest possible transparency. It is an issue that goes across party lines and that is of great importance to this House and its ability to take decisions on the very best evidence available at the time.

The legal basis for the Northern Ireland backstop—if there is one to be agreed—what it means now, and the implications for what it could mean in future, are central to our considerations. It should be scrutinised and interrogated, and the Government have no good reason to prevent the legal advice from being made available to right hon. and hon. Members so that that can take place. Nor should this House ever be content with edited highlights. We need to see the full consideration of the different arguments provided by the Attorney General. The House should be able to consider every sentence and every nuance.

If a deal is reached, the House deserves to see a properly detailed political declaration, to see a full economic impact assessment that applies both nationally and regionally and covers all parts of the United Kingdom, and to have full time to debate. The legal advice is crucial in informing that debate. This debate has wide implications for our politics and affects the lives of all our constituents. It is about accountability and the Government’s willingness to subject themselves to scrutiny on the most vital of issues. I urge the Government to listen, to respect transparency and openness, and to respect Parliament on an issue of such magnitude. The Government have promised the House a meaningful vote. Such a vote requires Members of Parliament to analyse forensically any deal so that they can fully understand the implications of the Government’s position. The Opposition say publish the full advice, so that Parliament can make an informed decision for the future of this country, to secure our economy, our jobs and our future.

Oral Answers to Questions

Nick Thomas-Symonds Excerpts

Wednesday 28th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

This is an issue on which my hon. Friend has campaigned strong and hard in the interests of her constituents. The NHS in north Cumbria is working on plans for considerable investment in local health services, including the completion of the new build at West Cumberland Hospital and the creation of an academic campus. It is committed to doing all it can to maintain consultant-led maternity services at West Cumberland Hospital. Patient safety is the priority, and the NHS is doing all it can to ensure that a safe and sustainable service can be provided to her constituents and to others.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)]

Q3. There are some beautiful stately homes in this country, but our heritage is equally about the history of working people. Shortly, the all-party parliamentary group on industrial heritage, which I chair, will publish its report into how best we can use that great industrial past for the jobs of the future. Will the Prime Minister meet me to discuss how best we can implement its recommendations?

[The Prime Minister]

I would like, first, to look at the report that the hon. Gentleman’s group is providing. What he is saying would potentially fit into the modern industrial strategy that the Government have already launched. We want to build on the strengths of our economy, but also to ensure that people in the UK are skilled for the jobs of the future. I am happy to look at the report and to ensure that he can meet me or the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy to look at the results.

Oral Answers to Questions

Nick Thomas-Symonds Excerpts

Wednesday 14th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend is a great supporter of agriculture across the whole UK and he is right to highlight the importance of the agricultural sector to the Welsh economy. He will also be familiar with our manifesto commitment, as well as statements made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, to fund agriculture on a similar scale up to 2022.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)]

The US-UK trade and investment working group was set up in July last year. What representations has the Secretary of State made to that group about the impact President Trump’s tariffs would have on the Welsh steel industry?

[Alun Cairns]

I mentioned to the hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) the direct actions I have taken and the whole host of actions being taken by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Trade. This is such a priority for this Government that there is cross-Government action to support the steel industry. As someone whose father was a welder in the steelworks in Port Talbot, I recognise the importance of this industry to Wales.

UK/EU Future Economic Partnership

Nick Thomas-Symonds Excerpts

Monday 5th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Let us hear from another very well-behaved person—in fact, a cerebral academic, I think. Nick Thomas-Symonds.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)]

I am most grateful for the compliments, Mr Speaker.

The Prime Minister has said that alignment is possible in two ways, either by having the same rules or by having the same consequences flowing from different rules. Which of those two categories will the automotive sector fit into, given that so many jobs in the country depend on it, not least in my constituency?

[The Prime Minister]

It will clearly be up to Parliament to decide which rules apply in the future. As I pointed out in my speech on Friday, the automotive industry is a very good example of what I said in response to the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) about integrated supply chains. We have been clear about this. Choices will be made about the areas where it is right—where Parliament will say that it wants an identical law, and where it wants the same outcome but wants to achieve it by a different means. Many businesses have made it very clear that they want to maintain the same regulatory standards, which is why that is one of the options that will be available.

Oral Answers to Questions

Nick Thomas-Symonds Excerpts

Wednesday 17th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Penny Mordaunt]

Absolutely. The UK is leading on this matter, having put it on the G8 agenda in 2013.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)]

It is vital that developing countries have an effective tax collection system. What bilateral action are the Government taking to support countries to achieve that goal?

[Penny Mordaunt]

As I just said, I think we need to do something more hands-on and more practical, so I am dedicating some resource and a team within my Department to focus on that for every nation we work with.

European Council

Nick Thomas-Symonds Excerpts

Monday 18th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)]

On workers’ rights, the Prime Minister promised in her Lancaster House speech that she would ensure

“that the voices of workers are heard by the boards of publicly-listed companies for the first time.”

Why, in the past year, has she not introduced the changes to company law that would make that happen?

[The Prime Minister]

As the hon. Gentleman will know, the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy has published proposals to do exactly that.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Nick Thomas-Symonds Excerpts

Committee: 4th sitting: House of Commons
Monday 4th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart]

Absolutely, but that is not the intention of the new clause.

It is shame we are in this position, because the Scottish Government and Welsh Assembly amendments, which all appear in the name of the hon. Member for Edinburgh South, were very clear in their focus and direction. Why Labour Front Benchers felt they had to come along and table new clause 64, I will never understand, but I leave it up to them. I have explained to them why we cannot support it this evening and I think they understand that reason. Let us leave it at that.

Lastly, I turn to my Scottish Conservative colleagues, ever so gently. [Interruption.] No, I think they have entered into this debate with a degree of consensus. The speech by the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Paul Masterton) was very thoughtful and well delivered. However, this is a big test for them tonight. The devolution settlement is at stake. These are critical decisions that we must take. They can believe Ministers, but I do not know what reassurances they have received that this will be resolved. I have worked with Scottish Government colleagues and they have told me that progress has been made, but nothing is decided. The best way to get progress and to ensure that there is total focus from Ministers is to vote for the amendments. That will tell them clearly that all of us across this House say that something has to be done.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Pete Wishart]

I was starting winding up, but I give way one last time.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds]

I want to be absolutely clear about the new clause, because it says clearly:

“Ministers of the Crown shall only create UK-wide frameworks if they have consulted with, and secured the agreement of, the affected devolved administrations.”

It is very, very clear. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that we should be working across parties as much as possible, but there is really no need to split hairs. That is very, very clear.

[Pete Wishart]

I do not know what part of that line the hon. Gentleman does not understand:

“Ministers of the Crown shall only create UK-wide frameworks”.

It does not talk about anybody else. I will leave that there. It is unfortunate. I do not know why Labour Front Benchers could not have come to us and had a conversation about it. We could have put forward our concerns. We could have come together consensually, as we have been doing quite a lot, and worked something out, but unfortunately that was not the approach they wanted to adopt. That was up to them.

Back to my friends in the Scottish Conservative party—I feel like I have neglected them now. This evening is a test for them. The future and the principles of the devolution settlement are up for grabs this evening. They can trust these guys here—the Ministers—trustworthy though they may be, to do the right thing. Perhaps they have received assurances that the Government are going to do all these things and that everything is going to be all right.

But what is not acceptable—I know most of my Scottish Conservative colleagues and friends are new to this place—is for this to go to the unelected House of Lords to be amended. That is what increasingly this Government are doing. They do not like to accept amendments in this place, which is a democratic outrage. This House, which we are all elected to by our constituents, should be the exclusive place in which these things are resolved and fixed down. If those Tories think that we should resolve these really important issues in a place that is full of unelected donors and cronies and failed Members of Parliament—I am thinking about the guy who opposed me in the Scottish Parliament and who managed to get himself in there and a role in the legislature—then that is their view, not mine. When we have debates about such critical issues, we owe it to our constituents to ensure that it is we who decide and determine them and not those in another place, which is unelected.

I hope that the Scottish Tories are right—I am looking round now and can see that they have full confidence that this will be resolved and fixed down—but the one way that they can definitely guarantee that they will get their way is to vote. That is what we do in this House: we vote on issues that we agree on and support. For the sake of the devolution settlement and to ensure that we get some sort of solution to everything that we need to get fixed, they should back us tonight, stand up for Scotland and make sure that these amendments are passed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab)]

In the past few weeks, we have spelled out many reasons why this Bill will leave the UK worse off in terms of human rights, workers’ rights, animal rights and environmental protections. However, it is designed to leave our devolved Governments and Parliaments worse off too.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds]

I entirely agree with the speech my hon. Friend has made so far. [Laughter.] I am sure I will agree even more as it develops further. She talks about the devolved Administrations, but is the truth not that this Bill also denudes this Parliament of powers through a number of Henry VIII clauses?

[Anna McMorrin]

I thank my hon. Friend, and I completely agree.

Wales voted for a devolved Government 20 years ago. I was part of that campaign, and I was proud to see the then UK Labour Government bring that about. We now see a more successful and confident Wales than we did two decades ago, but I fear that we are about to go backwards. The Tories have made it clear that, when it comes to devolution, they just do not get it. Anyone who understands the basics of devolution can tell you that this Bill is taking us backwards. The powers devolved to Wales must stay in Wales.

Clearly, the issue is one of trust—trust to exercise devolved powers responsibly, trust to carry out measures that represent the people of Wales and trust to provide meaningful scrutiny of legislation. However, why should we in Wales trust a UK Government that are leading us to such a shambolic Brexit? As it stands, after Brexit, the devolved Governments will be at the mercy of Whitehall.

Oral Answers to Questions

Nick Thomas-Symonds Excerpts

Wednesday 29th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Alistair Burt]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and he is absolutely right. Eradicating polio will be one of the great global public health success stories. United Kingdom taxpayer support since 1988 has helped prevent 1.5 million childhood deaths, and 16 million people are walking today who would otherwise be paralysed. People across the UK can be proud—not least those who support the Rotary movement, because the Rotary movement worldwide has played an important part, and I thank my colleagues in the Sandy Rotary club for their efforts in this regard.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that what has marked out the fight against polio is its international nature, and that we should be pressing this same approach to tackling other diseases at the Commonwealth summit next year?

Northern Ireland

Nick Thomas-Symonds Excerpts

Monday 26th June 2017 Commons Chamber

[Damian Green]

I am very pleased that, as the hon. Gentleman will know, talks have already started on the Belfast city deal, which I hope can be concluded as fast as possible so that Belfast can enjoy the benefits that other cities, including Glasgow and Cardiff, already have. Apart from anything else, it would be a good symbol of the United Kingdom Government acting in the interests of all parts of the United Kingdom.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)]

The hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) mentioned an extra £1.5 billion for Northern Ireland, and under the Barnett formula that should mean an extra £2.5 billion for Wales. Does the First Secretary of State agree that if the Welsh Secretary refuses to find that money for Wales around the Cabinet table, once again the Tories will have betrayed the people of Wales?

[Damian Green]

The new money of £1 billion in this deal is of course outside the Barnett formula. As I explained to the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts), under the Barnett formula every person in Wales receives approximately £120 for every £100 of public spending for every person in England. It is clear from the figures that Wales is not doing badly out of this formula.

European Council

Nick Thomas-Symonds Excerpts

Monday 26th June 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The Home Office is well able to deal with the issues that it will be addressing, and it will be ensuring, as I indicated in an earlier response, that the process that people will go through will be streamlined and light-touch.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)]

I recently visited a manufacturer in my constituency that exports to the EU. It informed me that it now has to include the risks of Brexit in its export contracts. What advice does the Prime Minister have for manufacturers, such as those in my constituency, that today have to assess the risk that they might end up paying tariffs after we leave the EU?

[The Prime Minister]

What I say to those manufacturers is that I hope they will work with the Government to ensure that we understand the needs of every part of industry in this country as we go forward into the negotiation on the comprehensive free trade agreement. We want to see a tariff-free ability to trade with the European Union, and we will be considering the views and interests of British industry as we do that.