Claim of Right for Scotland

Patrick Grady Excerpts

Wednesday 4th July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

It is quite useful for me to follow the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone), whom I congratulate on his distinction of being one of the few signatories to the claim of right who is still here. Picture the scene: the economy on the brink of recession; the Government hopelessly divided on Europe; the Labour party in turmoil; a woman Prime Minister in Downing Street; and Scotland living under yet another Conservative Government it did not vote for, pushing through damaging social policies against the will of the vast majority of Scottish people and parliamentarians. That was the situation in 1989, when the claim of right was signed and when the snowball of devolution that led to the Scottish Parliament began to gather speed. However, the more things change, the more they stay the same—but Scotland has changed and the United Kingdom has changed.

Like many others, my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) made the point that for the 15 hours when the polls were open on 18 September 2014 Scotland truly was exercising its sovereignty as a true free independent country. The future of our governance was in our hands and nobody else’s, and that is why we would have been happy to accept the amendment had it been selected by the Chair.

A decision was made, and of course we on the SNP Benches were disappointed that Scotland voted to remain in the Union, but voters were repeatedly told during the 2014 referendum that a no vote was not a vote for the status quo and that choosing to stay in the Union would bring about a new relationship in which Scotland would lead the UK, not leave the UK. A vow was made to deliver something as near to federalism as possible, and a guarantee was given that Scotland would remain a member of the European Union. Nearly four years on from that independence referendum, none of those promises has been kept.

There may have been a new status quo on the morning of 19 September 2014, but there was also a new status quo on the morning of 24 June 2016, when the United Kingdom for which people in Scotland voted ceased to exist. People in Scotland voted in 2014 for a United Kingdom that would be, and would remain, a member of the European Union; a United Kingdom that would guarantee people in Scotland freedom of movement for themselves and their goods, for their capital and their services, across the continent.

We were told by no less than Ruth Davidson herself, the leader of the Scottish Conservatives, that the way for Scotland to stay in the European Union was to vote no in 2014, and that has been ripped like a rug from under the feet of the people of Scotland. That is why there has been a material change in circumstances, and that is why it is right that this House now comes to recognise the sovereign right of the people of Scotland.

[Stephen Kerr]

I am struck by the sincerity and passion of the speech by the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone), who said he wonders why the claim of right is being discussed now and why it is being used as a peg to hang a hat on. Will the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady), who is a figure of authority in the parliamentary Scottish National party, confirm that it is not the intention of the SNP in government in Scotland to move our country to an illegal referendum, that this debate is not an excuse and that the SNP is not looking to create a pretext for an illegal referendum?

[Patrick Grady]

The fact is that the Scottish Parliament was re-elected in 2016 and a new Scottish Government were formed with a mandate to reserve the right to request an independence referendum if there is a material change in circumstances. That request was made. A request for a section 30 order was agreed by a majority of Members of the Scottish Parliament, and that request is extant—it is still there. The First Minister said the request had been put on pause as a result of the 2017 UK general election, but the result of that general election was to return a majority of Members from Scotland who support independence and who, at the very least, support the right of the people of Scotland to choose.

Something interesting has happened in this debate, because the Secretary of State for Scotland and his Conservative colleagues have said, with a shrug of the shoulders, “Of course we accept this motion,” as if it is not that big a deal. In 2012, Ruth Davidson and her Conservative colleagues were the only party actively to vote against the claim of right for Scotland when it was put to the Scottish Parliament. Although we hear from Liberal Democrat Members that the SNP did not sign the claim of right in 1989, for reasons that are well rehearsed, it was endorsed by Scotland’s Parliament in 2012 and the Scottish Conservatives actively refused to sign it at that point.

[David Mundell]

rose—

[Patrick Grady]

If the Secretary of State will tell me what has changed and why the Conservative party is now prepared to assent to the claim of right, I will be happy to take an intervention.

[David Mundell]

I will just set out the evidence that it is always a matter of grievance. The grievance now is that we are supporting their motion. If we had not supported the motion, that would have been the grievance. This is not about the claim of right; it is about building grievance so they can build their case for independence.

[Patrick Grady]

As the Government have committed to producing a statement within 30 days of an Opposition motion being carried, we will no doubt hear that the motion is not binding, and this and that and all the rest. The Government can decide whether they want to accept the motion but, if what the Secretary of State and his Conservative colleagues are saying is correct, this sovereign Parliament is going to accept the principle of the sovereignty of the people of Scotland.

I am surprised that some of the Brexiteers who want to take back control, the hon. Members for the 18th and 19th centuries, have not come along this evening to defend their cherished and beloved parliamentary sovereignty. Perhaps it is because they cannot. As we saw during the passage of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, it is not this House that is taking back control; it is the Executive who are taking back control. The power grab is not simply the one from the Scottish Parliament; it is also the power grab from this House, with the statutory instruments, the delegated authority and the ministerial fiat—

[Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP)]

Diktat.

[Patrick Grady]

And diktat. This has been grabbed and taken by the content of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill. That is the real power grab that is going on and it undermines the sovereignty not just of the people of Scotland, but of the Westminster Parliament as it has been traditionally seen. We have heard from all these different Members asking why the SNP has not brought up this, that or the next thing. We talk on a daily basis about the issues that affect our constituents and the people of Scotland. Members talk about yesterday’s estimates debate, but I say to the shadow Secretary of State that no Labour Member from Scotland was taking part in that debate, even though it was a debate on the devolution spend and the Barnett consequentials.

The hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) mentioned my Westminster Hall debate. I was proud to lead a debate on the claim of right in Westminster Hall, but that debate was on a motion saying “That this House has considered”. Today’s debate is on an actionable, votable motion and the Government have indicated, for the first time, that they are prepared to accept it.

[Ian Blackford]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech. If the Government accept this motion tonight, are they not then accepting the principle of the sovereignty of the Scottish people? If that follows, and if the Scottish Government have a majority and a mandate to ask for a referendum on a change of circumstances, are the Conservatives opposite not duty bound to follow that and make sure the Government push through a section 30 licence?

[Patrick Grady]

Precisely. [Interruption.] The Minister will have a chance to respond and sum up at the end of the debate. This is why the Government have to—

[Lesley Laird]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Gentleman has suggested that no Labour Member was present or spoke during the estimates debate. As he will of course know, I was sitting on the Front Bench and I am unable to intervene in that debate in that way.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

The hon. Lady has put that on the record and I am sure everyone in here will accept it.

[Patrick Grady]

Yes, that is a very helpful statement of fact, but it does not change the reality of the situation: nobody from the Scottish Labour Benches spoke. I simply say that some of the partisanship that has been shown in this House is not ideal, because we make no special claim to the claim—

[Hugh Gaffney (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like to point out, for the record, that I did speak in that debate yesterday—I made an intervention.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

The point of order should be addressed to me. I will respond again by saying that the hon. Gentleman has put what happened on the record and made it very clear. I will also say that the debate is coming to a close and other people wish to speak, so I urge Members not to have endless points of order.

[Patrick Grady]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. They come here and complain that we want to talk about process and that we are obsessed with individual constitutional issues, and then that is what we get.

When the Scottish Parliament debated and adopted the claim of right in 2012, it did not endorse, and it was not being asked to endorse, the principle of independence; it was asked to acknowledge the principle of deciding on independence. So the claim of right is not just an historical document, a scholarly debating point or an “obscure document”, as the hon. Member for Stirling (Stephen Kerr) said; it is a fundamental principle on which our democracy rests. The UK Government, in accepting this tonight, are making a serious and important point about maintaining the Union as a partnership of equals—they need to understand that.

In closing, we, and this Tory Government in particular, should reflect on the famous words of the convenor of the Scottish Constitutional Convention, Canon Kenyon Wright, who said at the opening of the convention:

“What if that other voice we all know so well responds by saying, ‘We say no, and we are the state’? Well, we say yes—and we are the people.”

[Several hon. Members rose—]

--- Later in debate ---

[Stuart Andrew]

Mr Speaker, I did not say that the right hon. Gentleman was disorderly. I simply said that I did not think the tone and the behaviour were appropriate for this debate—

[Patrick Grady]

claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).

Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.

Question agreed to.

Main Question accordingly put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House endorses the principles of the Claim of Right for Scotland, agreed by the Scottish Constitutional Convention in 1989 and by the Scottish Parliament in 2012, and therefore acknowledges the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of government best suited to their needs.

[Mr Speaker]

I was genuinely sorry that the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, the hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew), was not able to conclude his speech. I say that simply because he is the very embodiment of courtesy in the House, but I am afraid that is sometimes the way the cookie crumbles. No personal discourtesy is intended to the hon. Gentleman.

Glasgow School of Art

Patrick Grady Excerpts

Tuesday 19th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[David Mundell]

I am happy to look into the detail of that specific point, because it is relevant. I understand that several events that were due to take place have been rearranged and will go ahead at other venues in Glasgow. I am happy to take forward any specifics that flow from the hon. Lady’s question.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

The sense of devastation is felt so keenly in Glasgow because Charles Rennie Mackintosh’s work has touched our lives in many different ways—for example, I have been to the weddings of my sister and some of my best friends at the House for an Art Lover. The Charles Rennie Mackintosh Society is based in another of his masterpieces, the Queen’s Cross church, which is just around the corner from my constituency office. Will the Secretary of State make sure that the society is included in any communications or information flows that the Government initiate?

[David Mundell]

Yes, I am happy to do that. As a previous contributor said, it is a great irony that Mackintosh’s 150th anniversary was only on 7 June, when we saw, through the worldwide celebrations, how relevant he remains around the globe.

Sewel Convention

Patrick Grady Excerpts

Monday 18th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

I want to start on a consensual note by echoing the tributes that have been paid to the heroic work of the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service and Police Scotland in responding to the tragedy at the Glasgow School of Art. I send my sympathies and condolences to Professor Tom Inns and the whole community. I had the privilege of seeing some of the restoration work last year. I share the sense of devastation and hope that some legacy and restoration can be achieved.

There are two aspects to the power grab. The first was explained by my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford). Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act is very clear: if it ain’t reserved, it’s devolved. What is happening now is that powers that are not reserved to this Parliament are being stopped in their tracks from Brussels and reserved to the House of Commons, rather than being devolved to the Scottish Parliament. That is the first aspect of the grab of the 24 powers that have been spoken about so many times.

The second and more important aspect of the power grab is the contempt with which the refusal to grant a legislative consent motion is being treated. The decision of the House of Commons last Tuesday to vote through amendments to the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill that the Scottish Parliament had expressly refused its consent to is a fundamental change to the nature of the devolution settlement. It fundamentally undermines 20 years of devolution. That is the real power grab: this Parliament expressing its sovereignty in the face of the sovereignty that the people of Scotland expressed in their legitimately elected Parliament.

[Luke Graham (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He says that these powers being reserved is a fundamental challenge to devolution. Can he tell me how agricultural fertiliser regulations pose a fundamental challenge to devolution? How do powers relating to elements of reciprocal healthcare pose a fundamental challenge to devolution? Those are two of the 24 powers being reserved. This is not a challenge to devolution; it is just common sense.

[Patrick Grady]

The hon. Gentleman has a far more rural constituency than I do. Perhaps the farmers in his constituency are happy with the idea that this Parliament will simply legislate on those issues and ride roughshod, without the elected Members of the Scottish Parliament having a say, but I am not sure that the farmers in my constituency of Glasgow North would share that view.

The saddest thing is that it did not really have to come to any of this. This simply has not been on the Government’s radar. Whether that is because of a failure by the Secretary of State for Scotland to make Scotland’s voice heard in Cabinet or because Scotland is simply not important to the Tories does not really matter. The reality is that on Tuesday and Wednesday last week, we saw Government Whips running around the Benches negotiating with their rebels and Ministers at the Dispatch Box negotiating amendments to the withdrawal Bill in real time. Months of meetings in the Joint Ministerial Committee and of messages, statements, questions and debates led by Members from all the different parties in Scotland in this House seem to have had absolutely no effect on the UK Government. That is a demonstration of the contempt, of the power grab and of them riding roughshod over the views of Scotland expressed in the Scottish Parliament.

Ironically, and I have raised this before, there are still ways out for the Government, but they have so far refused to take them. On Thursday, I raised the issue of Royal Assent. It is up to the Government when the final version of the EU withdrawal Bill is put forward for Royal Assent. The Minister could stand up now and commit that they will not do so until agreement has been reached with the Scottish Government. Otherwise, presenting a Bill for Royal Assent while consent has been withheld is in blatant breach of the Sewel convention, which was put on a statutory basis in the Scotland Act after 2015—the greatest, most devolved Parliament in the entire history of the known universe snapped out and snuffed out just like that by this House of Commons after a paltry 19 minutes of debate, or one minute of debate for every year of devolution.

Let me say this on devolution and the Scottish National party—I say it with the greatest of respect to the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael). In 1997, when I was 17 years old, I was out on the streets of Inverness knocking on doors for the yes, yes campaign. I do not remember that many Liberal Democrat activists joining us, and that was a Liberal Democrat seat at the time. The reality is that the Scottish National party helped, on a cross-party basis, to deliver devolution and it has consistently delivered success in devolution, and the only people isolated throughout that period have been the Scottish Conservatives.

[Mr Carmichael]

Will the hon. Gentleman remind us of the role in the constitutional convention, building the blueprint that created the Scottish Parliament, of the SNP?

[Patrick Grady]

Of course, in the early days the Scottish National party had an interest in the process of the constitutional convention, but the constitutional convention decided that it would not consider independence. There was a founding document of the constitutional convention—I am very happy to discuss it, because this is of fundamental importance to the Conservatives. I defy any of the Scottish Conservatives to get up now and say that they will endorse the claim of right for Scotland; it is one of the founding documents. The claim of right for Scotland says that it is the fundamental sovereignty of the people of Scotland to determine their own constitutional future. The only party that has never signed the claim of right for Scotland—it refused to sign it in 1989 and it refused to endorse it when it was put to the Scottish Parliament in 2012—is the Scottish Conservatives. If one of the Scottish Conservatives wants to get up now and say that they endorse the claim of right for Scotland, I will be very glad to hear it. No? And a silence fell upon the assembly.

Of course, the great irony in all of this—this is the question which the Minister for the Cabinet Office must answer—is the fundamental damage that is being done to the UK constitution as a whole. We regularly have the farce of the English votes for English laws procedure in the House of Commons, when the English Grand Committee—the English Parliament—is asked to grant a legislative consent motion to whatever it has already debated and already consented to. What is the point of that EVEL procedure now if legislative consent motions from the Scottish Parliament—and potentially from the Welsh Assembly and, indeed, the Northern Ireland Assembly—are not even going to be paid attention to?

The reality is that the Government have completely failed to respect the outcomes of both the independence and the Brexit referendums. They have refused to respect the differential result in Scotland, Northern Ireland, London and Gibraltar. This goes beyond the simple question of the Sewel convention as it applies to Scotland; it is about how it applies across the whole of the United Kingdom. The Government are so determined simply to cling on to office that they do not seem interested in the consequences of the decisions they are making and the constitutional havoc they are wreaking.

Whether by accident or design, things have changed. The 20th anniversary of the Scotland Act heralds a new era of devolution and it is not the era that was promised by the no campaign in 2014. I am very fond of Alasdair Gray’s saying that we should

“Work as if you live in the early days of a better nation”.

There is another saying that the darkest hour comes just before the dawn. This is a very dark hour for devolution, but perhaps that means the new dawn of an independent Scotland, where full powers are in our own control, is on the way and those really will be the early days of a better nation.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill: Sewel Convention

Patrick Grady Excerpts

Thursday 14th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[David Mundell]

I do respect the decision of the Scottish Parliament. I have made it clear that I am disappointed by it. I was particularly disappointed by the Scottish Labour party’s approach to that decision. We respect the decision, but what happens next is determined by the Sewel convention and we are acting in accordance with that.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

The Secretary of State says that the situation is not normal, but he is establishing a new normal. He is establishing that this place can and will override the Scottish Parliament whenever, or if ever, the Scottish Parliament chooses to disagree. That is the opposite of the Sewel convention. The way he could demonstrate that he is not in defiance of the Sewel convention is by standing at the Dispatch Box now and confirming that the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill will not be sent for Royal Assent until agreement is reached.

Referendum on Scottish Independence

Patrick Grady Excerpts

Monday 13th November 2017 Westminster Hall

[Stephen Kerr (Stirling) (Con)]

It is an honour to serve here under your chairmanship, Sir Roger, and to take part in this debate, which is inspired by two public petitions that we have received. It bears testimony to the public’s ability to influence agendas in this Parliament and to this Parliament’s openness that so many of us are here in Westminster Hall, engaged as we are.

Let no one doubt that the people remain concerned about the Scottish Government’s obsession with independence. We have just seen evidence of that. In my constituency, more than 3,000 people signed the petition against a second referendum, and people have indicated in vast numbers and with strong feeling that they are fed up with the uncertainty and want a second independence referendum taken off the table.

The uncertainty caused by the First Minister’s threat of an independence referendum is holding Scotland back. It is background noise, like the din of an overly loud sound system in a busy pub. It makes it harder for us to hear each other and make rational, informed decisions. It makes it hard for businesses in my constituency—I have had many representations from business owners in Stirling—to make decisions about investment. It makes it hard for families and communities divided by the first referendum to settle down and build the bridges needed to make better choices, and it makes it hard for Scotland to have a decent conversation about anything. That lack of a decent conversation and a functional debate affects all of us.

Societies are by nature diverse. Collections of individuals, families and free associations of people exist in a community where compromise is the only way that things can happen and betterment can take place. Without dialogue, there can be no compromise. Divisions can be a destructive influence on our country, and I am sad when people cannot work together due to positions taken during the 2014 referendum. That happens when nationalist ideology pervades our political culture and a “for us or against us” mentality grows. It also happens when Unionists cannot trust the intentions of nationalists.

We were promised that the referendum would be a once in a lifetime event, and many people tell me we need to heal the wounds caused by that referendum with a period of constitutional stability. Nationalists have a responsibility to respect the outcome of the 2014 referendum, as they committed to do in the Edinburgh agreement referred to earlier. We need a Government in Scotland—our Government in Scotland—to get on with the job of governing, but the SNP Government are crippled by inactivity. The only thing that holds them together is the combined effort for independence, which occupies their thinking and their effort. That nationalist ideology, which has been rejected by the overwhelming majority of Scots, is the only thing holding the Scottish Government together.

Scotland is part of the United Kingdom. We decided that in 2014. Nationalism has been firmly rejected. We are a part of a united kingdom, not a mere member of an association. Scotland is at the heart of the United Kingdom. The nationalists’ pursuit of a second referendum is not conducive to experiencing the full benefit of our place in the United Kingdom.

I say again that nationalism is holding us back as a country. Business growth in Scotland was the lowest of any region or nation of the United Kingdom. The number of businesses in Scotland grew by just 1.6%, less than a quarter of the growth in the east of England alone. Investment dropped by 3% after the SNP doubled the large business supplement—another nail in the coffin for business in Scotland as the Scottish Government relentlessly push on to making Scotland the highest taxed part of the United Kingdom.

It should concern us all that the UK’s growth is not enjoyed across all its parts—its nations and regions. I wonder whether the SNP lacks the ability or the will; is it somehow doing it on purpose? Nationalists wallow in that divergence: they react with grievance rather than action when faced with problems and prefer to blame other people than to get on with the job of governing. They obsess about the eradication of our sense of Britishness. The majority of Scots see themselves as British as well as Scottish—as do I—but the nationalist ideology at the Scottish Government’s heart seeks to eradicate all British elements. Whether in removing Union flags, sidelining Her Majesty the Queen at the opening of the Queensferry crossing, or going after the British Transport police for political reasons, their motives are obvious to us all.

Nationalism is an unpleasant and divisive ideology that we do our bit to challenge today. The strength of feeling from the petition is obvious to all.

[Patrick Grady]

The hon. Gentleman says that British identity is good but that nationalism is a divisive ideology. I assume that he is not a British nationalist.

[Stephen Kerr]

In the context that the hon. Gentleman refers to British nationalism, I am not a British nationalist. I am a Scot and I am British. It is a question of identity and of patriotism.

From the people of Scotland to the politicians of Scotland, the petitions’ message is clear. They should put ideology to the side, get on with the job of building a better country and focus on the issues that matter to people, such as a strong economy, a well-educated workforce, a healthy population, a working national infrastructure, streets that are safe to walk on, and dignity and respect for all. The SNP’s obsession about the debate on Scottish independence helps to secure those objectives not one jot.

It is time for our politics to become positive and to focus on the priorities that people expect us to focus on. Ending the background noise—[Interruption.]—thank you for providing it—of nationalist ideology in our national debate will create the dialogue and the stability needed for Scotland to get the full benefits of its place in the United Kingdom and the world.

Scotland’s Fiscal Framework

Patrick Grady Excerpts

Wednesday 24th February 2016 Commons Chamber

[David Mundell]

I acknowledge that people have those feelings. A number of people on both sides of the House have raised issues about the Barnett formula. That is their job as representatives of different parts of the United Kingdom. My position is clear: the Barnett formula is good for Scotland, and this Government are keeping the Barnett formula.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

Can the Secretary of State name some of the devolved assemblies around the world that will now be less powerful than the Scottish Parliament?

[David Mundell]

I can produce a list and send it to the hon. Gentleman. I am not focused on other assemblies around the world. I am focused on the Scottish Parliament and making it a powerhouse Parliament with the powers that make a difference in Scotland. That is the state of the debate. The hon. Gentleman’s constituents will not want to hear about Parliaments in South America and other parts of the world: they will want to hear about what his party intends to do on income tax and welfare.

Scotland Bill

Patrick Grady Excerpts

Monday 9th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Wayne David]

I could not agree more. In my book, devolution is not about divorce, separation or schism. It is not about balkanising Britain. It is about establishing a new partnership, so that the people of Britain can work together in a constructive and harmonious way.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Wayne David]

I will, for the third time.

[Patrick Grady]

I may have misheard the hon. Gentleman, but it sounded as if he said that the Scottish Parliament had the power to call a referendum. The Scottish Parliament explicitly does not have the power to call a referendum, which is why we want to give it that power by means of our amendment.

[Wayne David]

What the amendment seeks to do is take away caveats that are essential in defining the partnership and the harmonious discussions that must take place. It is not simply a question of the Scottish Parliament deciding by itself what it wants to do.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Whiteford]

I really wish that the shadow Secretary of State had voted against the tax credit proposals when they came before this House on 20 July, because that would have killed them dead. Labour Members did not, however, and that is why we are back where we are. Nicola Sturgeon has made it crystal clear that she intends to bring forward costed, credible plans once the autumn statement has been made.

For low-paid working families, tax credits are an essential source of income. They put food on the table and shoes on the feet of children. They heat homes during winter. By the end of this Parliament, the Government’s proposed tax credit cuts would take £3.2 billion out of the Scottish economy from the pockets of the poorest families. That will undermine economic recovery. The austerity measures already enacted are set to push 100,000 more children in Scotland into poverty by 2020. Under the tax credit measures, 350,000 Scottish youngsters are set to lose out further. No wonder the Tories have abandoned any attempt at measuring child poverty.

There is a broad consensus in Scotland that cutting tax credits is the wrong thing to do. Even the leader of the Tory party in Scotland has called for a rethink and said that it is wrong for low-paid workers to lose out. It is recognised that the proposals will disincentivise work, hit children who are already disadvantaged and punish those in lower paid jobs.

The House of Lords put a proper spanner in the works of the proposals the other week, when it forced the Government back to the drawing board on their tax credit plans. Like millions of families across the UK who are facing uncertainty, we are all in a degree of limbo at the moment. We will have to wait until the autumn statement to learn what the Government intend to bring forward to make their plans more palatable to their own Back Benchers, who seem rather thin on the ground tonight.

We in the SNP have been very consistent in our opposition to tax credit changes. We have made the case at every single opportunity for alternatives to regressive austerity cuts. We will continue to fight tax credits tooth and nail in this House to force the Government into a climbdown. I hope we can rely on the support of other Opposition parties to stand firm, too. Labour abstained on 20 July, when we debated the general principles of the Welfare Reform and Work Bill that ushered in these proposals. The Government’s new clause 34, tabled last Wednesday, represents some progress. I am grateful for that, because it acknowledges that there was a veto and it manages to deal with that to some extent. New clause 34 would partially mitigate the impact of the tax credit cuts, but our new clause 18 is much stronger. It would fully devolve control of our tax credits to the Scottish Parliament, including eligibility thresholds and tapers. Government new clause 34 will give the Scottish Parliament the power to top up benefits. That is fine as far as it goes, but it will be no help whatever to those people who have lost their tax credits entirely as a consequence of the changes. If someone is not in receipt of a benefit, it cannot be topped up.

[Patrick Grady]

Is my hon. Friend aware that in Committee the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions refused to give a guarantee that, if the Scottish Government did top up benefits, especially tax credits, that money would not be taken away as if it was extra earned income?

[Dr Whiteford]

My hon. Friend makes a critical point. We have not had clarity from the Government that they will not means-test the top-ups. I am looking forward to clarification from the Secretary of State for Scotland tonight. [Interruption.] I am glad he is nodding and confirming that that is the case.

About 80,000 families in Scotland are going to lose entitlement altogether under the existing proposals. That is roughly the same number as were affected by the bedroom tax in Scotland. The Scottish Parliament may have the power to create a new benefit, but that seems an inordinately complex way to go about things. It is theoretically possible but, like the bedroom tax mitigation, the money would have to be found from other devolved budgets. It would be an admission from the Government that their proposals have not worked.

As I have said, Nicola Sturgeon has made it absolutely clear that she will bring forward proposals. Labour Members need to be clear tonight: will they back our new clause 18? Will they once again cosy up with the Tories, or will they sit on their hands in the face of crushing austerity cuts coming down the line?

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Murray]

I echo the Secretary of State in thanking everyone who has been involved in the Bill’s passage, including his officials and the people who have been so supportive to Labour Members. I thank my Parliamentary Private Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Ruth Smeeth), and, of course, my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David), who has spoken on many parts of the Bill, but I also thank the Clerks in the Public Bill Office, who have been incredibly helpful in putting the Bill together. It has been like wading through treacle at times, but they have always been courteous, and their advice has always been well received.

Let me be absolutely clear at the outset about the Labour party’s position. We fully support the Bill and all that it seeks to achieve. [Interruption.] One would think that SNP Members would just stop for two minutes during the Third Reading debate. When the Conservative Secretary of State spoke, there was complete silence, but when the Labour party speaks, the braying mob starts. That tells us all that we need to know about this place.

With the amendments that have been accepted this evening, the vow has been delivered in full. The Bill delivers on the powers promised and agreed by all parties, including the SNP, in the Smith commission.

In 1998 Donald Dewar said:

“There shall be a Scottish Parliament”—[Official Report, 12 January 1998; Vol. 304, c. 25.],

and it was Labour, with the consent of the Scottish people, that delivered that Parliament. This Bill will make the Scottish Parliament one of the most powerful devolved legislatures in the world. It meets not only the terms of the vow, but the timetable laid out by Gordon Brown last year. We promised a process by the end of October; it was delivered. We promised it would conclude by St Andrew’s day; it was delivered. Draft legislation was promised by January; it was delivered. Second Reading of the Scotland Bill was promised straight after the election, regardless of who won; that was delivered. We promised that, no matter what parties formed the Government after the election, we would deliver a Bill to meet what the Smith commission set out; and thanks to the Secretary of State’s amendments put forward on Monday, that has been delivered. It is absolutely clear that this Bill, as amended, will place at the Scottish Government’s disposal the powers to make Scotland the fairer and more equal country that we all aspire for it to be.

[Patrick Grady]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Ian Murray]

I am not going to take interventions because I want the SNP opposition spokesman to speak, and if I take interventions he will be talked out.

From the establishment of the Scottish Parliament to the Calman commission to the Scotland Act 2012, Labour has supported more powers for the Scottish Parliament, but we are absolutely clear about what we stand for: we believe in devolution, not separation. That is what the people of Scotland voted for last year, and we respect the sovereign will of the Scottish people. They said they wanted to remain part of the United Kingdom but with a strong Scottish Parliament. They said they wanted to continue to pool and share resources across these islands. They said that they wanted the continued security that being part of a bigger union of nations and family of nations brought.

The Bill provides an historic opportunity for our politics in Scotland to turn from talking about the constitution to talking about the country, and about what we can do to make Scotland the fairest nation on earth, instead of what we cannot. Let’s grasp that opportunity. Let’s build that fairer nation. Let’s give the people across Scotland the politics they deserve. In the words of Donald Dewar, there shall be a powerful Scottish Parliament.

Scotland Bill (Programme) (No.2)

Patrick Grady Excerpts

Monday 9th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart]

I do not want to take up time, but I want the House to understand the rage that my hon. Friends and I feel about the limited amount of time that we have been given today.

I also want to reassure the House that we are not looking to have the Bill certified as English only, even though the Government consider the Scotland Bill to be an English-only Bill. We do not even want it to be certified as Scotland only, even though every single bit of the Bill applies exclusively to Scotland. I just hope that in the few short hours we have for debate that English Members will remember that when they make their contributions and vote. I hope that they listen to the voices of Scottish Members of Parliament on the Bill. It is not good enough to turn up and decide to have their say on Scottish business in this new age of English votes for English laws, but we will not have the Bill certified today.

We want the Bill to be discussed and debated properly, although it is way behind what the Scottish people require. We will not press the programme motion to a Division, even though the House knows how angry we feel about the limited time, because that would take further time from the debate.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the real irony is that after today’s truncated debate, the Bill will move to the House of Lords for weeks, possibly even months, of scrutiny with no democratic mandate from any voter in Scotland?

[Pete Wishart]

That is exactly what will happen. The minute the Bill leaves this House it goes to the unelected Chamber of donors and cronies who will seek to impose their views on the business of Scotland. It is an utter disgrace.

If the Secretary of State thinks that the Bill puts a line under the ambition of the people of Scotland, he is gravely mistaken. Scotland has a fuller vision for itself now. Scotland is a more confident, assertive nation and it will never stop asking for more responsibility. The Scottish people know that it is better that they are in charge of their nation’s affairs, instead of a Conservative Government that we did not vote for, with a solitary Scottish Member of Parliament.

Scotland Bill

Patrick Grady Excerpts

Monday 15th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Ian Murray]

Let me give this commitment: if the hon. Lady brings forward an amendment on parking on pavements, we will sign it.

Let me explain why we tabled new clause 2 in terms of the constitutional convention and the practical steps we need to take so that, where appropriate and desirable, decisions are taken as close to communities as possible. Our new clause proposes that members of the constitutional convention must include members of the public, which is the key part of any constitutional convention, elected representatives across all levels of government, including this place and local government, representatives of civic society organisations and, in an advisory role, academia. What we cannot have is a Prime Minister and Government cooking up a devolution settlement in a back room of the Cabinet Office without proper recourse to the public. As I said on Second Reading, the Prime Minister’s cack-handed approach to the way he dealt with the post-Scottish referendum landscape has in itself threatened the very viability of the UK that Scots voted to maintain.

Let us have a wide-ranging discussion on the constitutional settlement of the whole of the UK. The recommendations by the constitutional committee would include, but not be restricted to, matters that we have already discussed today—the role and voting rights of Members in this Chamber, democratic reform of the House of Lords, further sub-national devolution to England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland, votes at 16 and codification of the constitution, the absence of a proper written constitution being one of the problems we have when discussing the Bill.

Our amendment 37 and 38 are very similar in substance to those tabled by the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael). The opening lines of the vow declared that

“The Scottish parliament is permanent and extensive new powers of the Parliament will be delivered”.

Equally, the Smith commission agreement said that

“UK legislation will state that the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government are permanent institutions”.

As I have said, the centre of political power in Scotland is the Scottish Parliament. It has powers over most things that affect the day-to-day lives of most Scots, but as things stand and as was noted by the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, the Scotland Act 1998 stated:

“There shall be a Scottish Parliament”,

but did not provide that it be permanent, nor does it set out any special procedures or grounds on which it could be dissolved. Would there be a simple repeal of the Scotland Act?

There has been agreement among legal experts that the clause could be made clearer, more concise and more in keeping with the overall spirit and tenor of the Smith recommendations. For example, the Law Society of Scotland—I thank it and particularly Michael Clancy for all his advice on the legalities of these clauses—stated:

“The phrasing in the draft clause does not literally implement the terms of Paragraph 21 of the Smith Report. The use of the phrase ‘recognised as’ permanent has a different nuance from a statement that the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government are permanent institutions.”

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

Given that the Scottish Parliament, at the insistence of the Labour party, was founded through the process of a referendum, will the hon. Gentleman support our clause to ensure that it cannot be abolished without a referendum?

[Ian Murray]

I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman has raised that point. That is exactly what our amendment does as well. We are very happy for SNP Members to sign our amendment, given that ours was tabled before theirs. We agree on this; there is no division on this. We need a robust devolution architecture. That means making sure that the legal restrictions in the Bill are removed so that we have a permanent Scottish Parliament in statute as well as in spirit.

Amendment 16 would alter clause 1 by exchanging the indefinite article for the definite article in reference to the Scottish Parliament. There is only one Scottish Parliament, after all, so there is no need for a double reference. Amendment 38 would add to clause 1 the stipulation that the Scottish Parliament and the Act on which it is predicated can be abrogated only with the consent of the Scottish people given effect by an Act of the Scottish Parliament. That is the referendum section of our amendment. I believe that amounts to what is known in constitutional law as contingent entrenchment. Given the limited time available, I will not go through the other issues relating to contingent entrenchment, but I am sure that the Secretary of State realises the desire of all three opposition parties to strengthen clause 1 and include a referendum requirement so that permanency is determined by the Scottish people. Amendments 58 and 59 make similar proposals.