Welfare Reform and Work Bill

Peter Dowd Excerpts

Tuesday 27th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Debbie Abrahams]

The hon. Gentleman makes my point for me: that is why we need the independent review. There was enough evidence to leave real concerns about this matter. The Select Committee thought that the Minister had agreed to a review, but as paragraph 100 of the report states, unfortunately he reneged on that promise. In addition to these serious ethical issues, there were, and still are, concerns about a number of people affected, particularly in the case of ESA claimants, and about the meteoric rise in the use of sanctions.

[Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend recall that in the summer the Department for Work and Pensions was forced to admit to having invented quotes from fake benefit claimants, which meant that its sanctions leaflets had to be withdrawn pretty quickly?

[Debbie Abrahams]

My hon. Friend makes a valid point. That is one of the reasons why we need an independent review to investigate such matters.

--- Later in debate ---

[Helen Whately]

Public sector workers are getting a 1% pay rise. Over the past few years, private sector pay has, in the main, been frozen while public sector pay has continued to go up.

I will move on to the Opposition amendments on the benefits cap. The Government intend to reduce the cap to £20,000, or £23,000 in London. We should be clear that that is the net figure, so it would amount to a salary of about £25,000 before tax. We have heard some rather mixed messages from Labour Members. Their leader has said that he wants to cap benefits overall but not for individuals. I am sure that it will become clear today exactly where they stand on the amendments tabled by SNP Members, who I understand do not want any reductions in the benefits cap. Benefits should be a safety net. We need a benefits system that is sustainable and therefore affordable and fair. It cannot allow people to do better on benefits than in work. That creates the wrong incentives. It is also deeply unpopular and therefore unsustainable in its own right. Surely Opposition Members have had conversations with people who are just above the threshold that would allow them to receive most benefits. They must understand their legitimate anger when they see their taxes funding a lifestyle they cannot afford.

[Peter Dowd]

Is the hon. Lady aware that 70% of the money that the Treasury will save as a result of cuts to tax credits will come from working mums?

[Helen Whately]

It was pointed out in Committee that people who receive benefits also pay tax. I do not think we should try to parcel people up in different tribes or groups. This is about getting the right thing for the country, trying to help everybody make the most of their opportunities and making work pay.

I have certainly had difficult conversations on the doorsteps in my constituency, because the majority of employees in Faversham and Mid Kent are paid less than £20,000 per annum. At its current level the benefits cap has been working. More than 16,000 capped households have moved into work, and households subject to the cap are 41% more likely to get into work. We know that work is the best way out of poverty and I believe that everyone in this House wants to see people move out of poverty. We should make the benefits cap work harder. That is what this is about.

--- Later in debate ---

[Victoria Atkins]

I am grateful, Mr Speaker. This is a very quick point.

The concept of job quality is beguiling, but how on earth do we define it? I am conscious that I may be about to upset the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman). I am going to describe a real-life job. Someone in their early 20s worked six days a week, or seven on occasion, without a break and far beyond nine-to-five, earning so little that she did not pay income tax in her first year, with no pension, no sickness pay and no holiday pay. Some Members might think that the quality of that job was very poor, but the opinion of the person who had it was that it was a great stepping stone into a very fulfilling career. I can say that because it was my first job. The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland laughs. I do not for a moment recommend it as a first job; we must all find our own courses in life. Nevertheless, how on earth do we define the quality of a job? I fear that this new clause would be a lawyers’ paradise—and I know whereof I speak.

[Peter Dowd]

It is often my lot to be well down the batting order, although I prefer bowling.

Until last night, when they were fortunately brought down to earth by the other House, the Government were pushing on with their tax credit proposals. They are still pushing on with them, despite the fact that the Chancellor is, he tells us, in listening mode, and the fact that there is no palpable or sustainable action to move to a higher-wage economy. They are tinkering at the edges. This proposal affects working mums; as I said earlier, 70% of the burden is falling on them. It affects low-income families. It damages work incentives, despite what the hon. Member for Louth and Horncastle (Victoria Atkins) said. It affects the working poor. It will have a dire effect on those with chronic illnesses, particularly with mental health problems.

The question we have to ask is whether this proposal will make work pay and help people back into work. Many say no. Some have suggested alternatives for where the extra funding can be found. I am not saying whether I agree or disagree with them, but it gives the lie to the claim that there are no alternatives. Despite issues of phased implementation, inheritance tax, relocation of planned spending on the personal allowance, marriage allowance changes, help with childcare costs, working tax credit and universal credit, there is still no guarantee of higher wages.

The provisions on ESA and the WRAG were introduced specifically to assist with support for disabled people who were assessed as not being fit for work according to the Government’s own assessment regime. Some people, such as those with chronic mental health problems, find it difficult to work. The Work programme has supported only 9% of participants on ESA with mental and behavioural disorders into sustained employment. We have parity of esteem, but not for those on welfare. Support for those people has to be tailored to their needs. There can be a slow journey back to health. People need advisers with particular skills and they are not getting them, so how do they possibly get back into work?

As for the sanctions regime, a Church group in Scotland identified that 100,000 young people were affected by sanctions, that they were being debilitated by them and that the sanctions undermined their humanity. Yes, sanctions have existed since 1913, but they have to be humane and those under discussion are not.

[The Minister for Employment (Priti Patel)]

We have had a long and interesting debate on a range of amendments. I thank every colleague who has contributed to it, particularly my hon. Friends the Members for Faversham and Mid Kent (Helen Whately), for Beverley and Holderness (Graham Stuart), for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans), for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy), for Bury St Edmunds (Jo Churchill), for Chippenham (Michelle Donelan) and for Louth and Horncastle (Victoria Atkins).

Given that time is short, I will speak very briefly to some of the amendments. On amendments 35 to 48, we introduced the benefits cap in order to increase work incentives, to promote fairness between those in work and those on benefits, and to not only help to address the deficit but to support people back to work. The benefits cap has been a key part of our reforms to the structure of the welfare system and to attitudes towards getting back into work.

It is clear from the evidence that the cap is working. Since the cap was introduced in 2013, more than 6,000 previously capped households have moved into work and more than 41% of capped households are likely to go into work. That trend did not exist before the cap, and those with higher weekly benefit payments used to be less likely to move into work. We have had some great results and we intend to build on them and to align the cap with the circumstances of many hard-working people throughout the country. We firmly believe that the new, tiered benefit cap will continue to build on those successes and that it will do more to improve work incentives throughout the country while promoting greater fairness when it comes to work and employment.

There was an extensive debate on amendments 56, 20, 57 and 31 on universal credit and the employment support allowance. The removal of the work-related activity and limited capability for work component will apply only to new claims. There will be no cash losers among claimants already receiving the rate, and clauses 13 and 14 do not affect the support group component.

In 2008, when the then Labour Government introduced ESA as a “radical reform package”, the work-related activity component was originally intended to act as an incentive to help people into work and to return quickly to work. However, the original estimates were incorrect and only 1% of people in the work-related activity group left the benefit each month. It is clear, therefore, that the existing policy is not working and that it is failing claimants.

As discussed in Committee and this afternoon, we believe that it is the duty of Government to support those who want to work to do so, particularly those with disabilities and health conditions who want to work, including the majority of ESA claimants. We know that 61% of those in the WRAG want to work. We will do everything we can to support them in that ambition, and it is right that we do so.

Universal credit supports people with small or fluctuating amounts of work. That is why it is particularly helpful that we look at the ESA component and universal credit together. It is that alignment that will help to bring people closer to work while tailoring the support they need to move into work. As part of the package of savings in the summer Budget, the Government were able to allocate new spending to ESA that would not otherwise have been available. That support is now funding up to £100 million per year to help claimants with limited work capability but who have potential, because they want to move into work, to get closer to the labour market. We will provide all the support necessary to make sure that they can get back into work.

Comments have been made about work coaches and jobcentres. May I reassure the House that all work coaches are trained to help claimants and that that is not based on the benefit they are on, but, importantly, on the actual support they require? That is particularly true for universal credit. The training for staff working with ESA claimants focuses on raising awareness of their individual circumstances and recognises that disability and health conditions affect individuals in different ways. Such factors change over time but, importantly, we will support claimants in their journey to get back into work.

We have had a debate about sanctions. Of course sanctions exist for a reason. Importantly, however, they also exist to support people into work. I recognise that many Members from both sides of the House have specific cases to which they have referred. I again extend my offer to look into such cases. The Government keep the operation of sanctions under constant review. We have clearly made a number of improvements to sanctions, including in relation to the Oakley review. Last week, we gave a very clear response to the Work and Pensions Committee report. Our response outlined the work that the Department has already undertaken to review the sanctions system and the changes we intend to make. The response was welcomed by the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Frank Field), the Chair of the Select Committee.

Our response to the Committee includes the announcement that we will trial a sanctions warning system, which will give claimants a further opportunity to work with jobcentre work coaches to provide evidence before a sanction is applied. We will consider extending the definition of at-risk groups for hardship purposes, including those with health conditions—particularly those with mental health conditions—and those who are homeless, which means that they can seek access to hardship payments from day one of the sanction.

We want the sanctions system to be clear, fair and effective in promoting positive behaviours. Importantly, however, it should also support individual claimants, which is why we will continue to keep the system under review. I will make it very clear: there are no targets for sanctions, a point made on the Floor of the House this afternoon. I say to the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) that she was wrong in her remarks not just about sanctions but about employment levels in this country and clearly about the economy.

On new clause 3, I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness, the hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Neil Coyle)—he was consistent in making points in Committee—and my hon. Friends the Members for Bury St Edmunds, for Gloucester (Richard Graham) and for Weaver Vale for their contributions. The PIP assessment is designed to treat all health conditions and impairments fairly. I assure all hon. Members that we consider the needs of those who are terminally ill in developing the assessment, and that we absolutely remain committed to providing support to disabled people and those with illnesses in all their circumstances. We know that such claimants, especially those who are terminally ill, have particular challenges.

I listened to all the contributions in Committee. As the hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark knows, I am meeting him tomorrow, with the hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield), to discuss this matter further. I look forward to working with him on the points he has made, as well as on those expressed by my colleagues. The hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark was right to refer to the fact that rules have been introduced to ensure that the PIP system handles terminally ill claimants efficiently and sensitively, reducing the need for face-to-face assessments—we discussed that at length in Committee—and the degree of intrusion on claimants and their families, while, importantly, focusing on delivering vital support to claimants as quickly as possible.

It is very clear, as we discussed in Committee, that the Government are focused on rolling out PIP in a very safe and steady manner, ensuring that the claimant experience is protected and that the PIP system is as straightforward as possible for the user, particularly those who are terminally ill. PIP has been and will continue to be subject to independent reviews—we have committed to that in legislation—which, as ever, will help us to make continued improvements to what is a dynamic benefit. We are fully committed to ensuring that there is a positive evidence base for all changes that we make and that users understand their impact so that we can deliver the best possible service for claimants.

We will continue to work with all hon. Members, as I have said in Committee and this afternoon, as PIP is rolled out. I will continue to work with colleagues and to take on board their points. I thank them for their valuable contributions. The hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark has expressed some concerns, but I will take away his points for our meeting. I look forward to taking forward such considerations.

In summary, the Bill brings forward important changes that are designed to create the right incentives within the welfare system, and I urge hon. Members to withdraw their amendments.