British Nationals in Goa

Philip Hollobone Excerpts

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Westminster Hall

[Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to raise a slightly obscure and rather distant subject. It is, however, a subject that has the potential to ruin the parents of one of my constituents and apparently affects many hundreds of western expatriates who have also invested in property in Goa. I am delighted that the Minister is responding to the debate in the absence of the Minister of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Devon (Mr Swire), who I know is abroad.

Many other Members have been involved in this issue and frustrated at the lack of action by Indian and Goan Government officials when some fairly blatant corrupt practices are at work. That is why I am raising the issue and putting it firmly on the radar. I hope that something will come from it.

I want to give a brief background on this particular case, which came to me from my constituent. Just over 13 years ago, Mr Leslie Medcroft and his wife purchased a hotel in Canacona, Goa. They were at pains to ensure—they had done extensive research—that they complied with all the rules and regulations. They complied with the money laundering laws. The funds came from legitimate sources and banks in the UK. They complied with all the residency conditions, which can be strict, and bought the business through a local company that was properly registered. They were buying an investment in an ongoing hotel business, with appropriate Government of Goa licences. They paid all the taxes due and had all the licences that were needed. Those licences were kept up over many years as they ran that hotel business.

Subsequently, it was claimed that the property had been purchased illegally because, among other things, the area was designated for agricultural usage, but no evidence for that was produced. In contrast, my constituent’s parents produced a forest of documentation to show that everything had been complied with and that the purchase and the running of the business were entirely proper and above board.

A couple of years ago, they became the subject of an investigation by the enforcement directorate. The ruling given on 12 February 2013—almost two years ago—by Mr Lotlikar, the deputy director of the enforcement directorate, was that the property of the Hotel Oceanic should be confiscated. He claimed that it had not been properly acquired, despite all the evidence produced to the contrary. My constituent’s parents understandably appealed the decision, but had a long wait, which caused them huge stress. They had given up their life savings and their jobs in the UK to start the business in India and spend their retirement years there.

Eventually, on 26 August 2014, my constituent’s parents received a letter stating that their appeal hearing was at last to be held on 22 August—four days before they received the letter. Fortunately, the advocate they had retained in Goa saw a copy of the letter in time to attend the appeal hearing. That was quite coincidental; his office happens to be next door to the enforcement directorate. The appeal hearing was further postponed to 4 September 2014.

On 2 September, the company accountant acting for Mr and Mrs Medcroft was approached by the special director of appeals in Mumbai, who said he would make a judgment in their favour if they gave him 10 lakh rupees. That is 1 million rupees, which equates to £10,800. There is a certain irony, not missed here, that the origin of the word “lakh” in the Indian numbering system is the amount of money that can be stuffed into a small suitcase, as no doubt those proceeds would have been, had they been forthcoming. It would appear that the request was made for the money not to be paid to the court, the legal system or a Government department, but directly into the pocket of said official. It was a thinly veiled threat that failure to comply with the demand for a bribe would result in a ruling against Mr and Mrs Medcroft and, ultimately, their property being confiscated.

My constituent’s parents were left in something of a dilemma, as we can imagine. Should they pay up, perhaps then getting recognition that they own the property they knew they already owned and had bought legitimately, and thereby condone corruption? Alternatively, should they pay up and risk the case not actually being resolved? As we know, blackmailers usually come back for more. Would they be charged as participants in corrupt practices for ostensibly bribing an Indian official? Should they not pay up and risk the confiscation that has been looming over them for some years? Whichever way we look at it, it appears that they cannot win.

My constituent’s parents were unable to raise the amount of money in the short term in any case, so they did not really have a choice: they did not pay the money. They were also unable to return to India—they were in the UK at the time, renewing their visas—before 17 September, but the appeal went ahead in their absence. The ruling from that appeal was that the argument they put forward was incomplete, despite their having provided comprehensive documentation in support. A further hearing date was set for 26 September, and they were subsequently told that on top of the bribe, they might have to pay an additional sum of £6,000.

“Where does it end?” you may well ask, Mr Hollobone. The case went to a further hearing and the presiding judge, Ajit Kumar, the additional income tax commissioner, very much expected my constituent’s parents to pay. In the absence of that, he deferred a ruling and apparently threatened to have them arrested in the meantime. Tape recordings of that conversation were taken as evidence. They were advised by their advocate that this process will go on indefinitely until they pay up and that they will have constant doubt and worry overhanging their business.

My constituent’s parents have invested their life savings. They were running a legitimate business that helps the Goan economy—tourism, in particular, on which Goa greatly depends. They have had to spend a lot of their money on lawyers, accountants and other professionals, first to ensure that they acquired the business legitimately and maintained all the licences and secondly to maintain their innocence against corrupt officials. If this case goes against them and their hotel is confiscated, they face ruin and a great deal more stress. They would probably have to return to the UK.

I gather, however, that my constituent’s parents are not an isolated case, and that is why I am raising the issue today. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) wanted to be here today, but she is receiving an honorary doctorate from the university of Birmingham—I am delighted to point that out, as she wanted me to. She was approached by some of her constituents who were lecturers. They took early retirement and invested through a direct foreign investment channel in a dilapidated old colonial mansion on the coast in southern Goa in 2005. They spent a fortune renovating it. It was originally set up as a business to cater for convalescing foreigners undergoing medical and dental treatment.

The project was successful and has become a general guesthouse business. In 2009, on having acquired the business, the hon. Lady’s constituents were summoned to Panjim to give assurances, initially on money laundering. In 2011, they received notices from the enforcement directorate claiming that they had illegally purchased agricultural land and that their business was illegitimate—similar circumstances to the case against my constituent’s parents. Yet they had documents to prove categorically that the land they had acquired was in a settlement zone, was listed in the Portuguese book of descriptions in 1905 as an urban dwelling and has absolutely no history of crop growth. Clearly, the charge of agricultural usage is entirely bogus. The business is properly owned by an Indian private limited company, regarded as resident in India for the purposes of FEMA, the Foreign Exchange Management Act 1999. It complies with all the regulations, but the parents of my constituent are facing a lengthy and costly court action and the threat of confiscation.

Only today, I received an e-mail from a member of the British nationals’ working party in Goa, who has been dealing with a number of other expats in similar situations. She told me that in the past two years she has been working on a number of cases and has knowledge of four in which confiscation orders have already been served on people. In one case, a confiscation order has been issued against a British couple aged 80 and 77 in relation to their studio flat. Another confiscation order was issued two years ago against a single British woman in her 70s who owns a small flat in a purpose-built complex in north Goa.

In addition, hundreds of British subjects have been prevented from registering their properties in Goa, having previously fulfilled the requisite legal processes, primarily because of restrictions on visas. In some cases, that has led to criminality and harm against foreigners when they have tried to obtain the properties, causing loss of investment. Some cases have involved extreme violence. Other people affected include those who came together to invest in Indian tourism and who have been prevented from trading due to altered interpretations of the law and, in tandem, prevented from registering their properties.

The problem seems to be quite widespread, with a number of British expats suffering such consequences. It has been suggested that there are in excess of 300 similar cases that we know about. Huge stress is being caused to people who legitimately went out to invest in businesses in Goa. In most cases, they are not wealthy, but have invested their life savings. The situation is proving to be a nice little earner for the Government in Goa, and various Government officials are pretty brazen in demanding money to make the problem, which is of their making, supposedly go away. We seem to have the Goan equivalent of the mafia.

It is surely entirely inappropriate for a fast-growing democracy such as India, which attracts, and needs to attract, large amounts of foreign investment as an important UK trading partner, to allow such practices to go on under its nose. The Indian Government should be keen to find out what is going on and to intervene. In the past few months, however, I have written to the Indian law Minister, Shri Ravi Shankar Prasad, and to the Chief Minister of Goa, Shri Manohar Parrikar. The latter responded and diverted my attention instead to Dr Rajan Katoch, the director of the enforcement directorate, who has also not responded. I have written to the Minister of Finance, Arun Jaitley, who is responsible for the tax commissioners, including the judge Ajit Kumar who I mentioned earlier.

I also wrote to the high commissioner in London, His Excellency Ranjan Mathai, no fewer than three times, and chased up with several calls and e-mails. I had no reply until yesterday—after I had secured this debate, coincidentally. The response came from the first consular secretary to the high commissioner, Mr P. K. Patel, and merely stated:

“You will appreciate that the High Commission cannot intervene in administrative judicial proceedings in India. If your constituent’s parents are aggrieved by Directorate of Enforcement actions, they may seek appropriate legal redressal of their grievances.”

They have been trying that, and they have not been getting anywhere. Clearly, they will not get anywhere with the high commission in London either, which is a great pity.

The British high commission in Delhi is aware of the problem and the Business Secretary, on a visit to the Indian subcontinent, raised it with Ministers. A high commission official has been dealing with British cases, but cannot get individually involved in them. I was also able to collar the British high commissioner James Bevan when he was about to appear before the Foreign Affairs Committee on 15 October. He has been helpful and entirely sympathetic, saying that the high commission is aware of the problem. Action needs to happen, however, and things cannot be allowed to go on unchecked.

The Government need to use their good offices to impress on their Indian counterparts that that sort of practice does the reputation of Goa and India at large no service at all. It stands in the way of legitimate investment. It would be a great problem if that investment were deterred by obviously corrupt practices.

I hope that the Minister will be able to give assurances today, to my constituent’s parents and to the affected constituents of other hon. Members, that this matter will be looked into properly and further pressure will be brought to bear on the Indian Government. I also hope that His Excellency the high commissioner to London is listening intently; I am sure he would not want such practices to besmirch the reputation of the Indian Government. They are clearly doing so at the moment.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

I commend the hon. Gentleman on the interesting way in which he has presented this complex and important case. To respond, we have a Minister who is responsible for about half the world, I think.

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[Mr Ellwood]

I will certainly relay that to the Minister of State. Perhaps I can put him on the spot in his absence and suggest that he and my hon. Friend meet so that, rather than the issue lying dormant after the debate, we can move the process forward.

Consular staff are dealing with the property issue at a wider policy level, engaging with the Goa Government and local authorities directly, and that must fit in with what my hon. Friend said about the difference between taking a systemic approach and looking at individual cases. That approach, which I hope will be joined up, has been effective, with approximately 40 cases being cleared of investigation over the last year. However, as has been reiterated today, many more outstanding cases need to be looked at.

We are aware of corruption allegations against local authorities in Goa. However, the matter must be dealt with by the Indian authorities. We have always advised British nationals to report corruption complaints to the Indian law enforcement system.

Although there has been some progress, I recognise that the issue continues to cause distress to British nationals. We will continue to lobby the Goa Government and local authorities on systemic issues relating to expatriate property disputes and to work with those who have been affected to find an appropriate solution.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

I shall now suspend the sitting until 4.30 pm or until the next Minister arrives. I thank all those who took part in this important debate.

Oral Answers to Questions

Philip Hollobone Excerpts

Tuesday 20th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

As the Prime Minister has made clear, we want to see reforms to the way in which human rights are dealt with in this country. We have a very long tradition of respecting human rights—one that is embodied in our parliamentary procedures and in our legal arrangements—and we want to make sure that it is the United Kingdom courts who stand up for human rights and that it is ultimately their judgments that interpret how human rights standards are applied here.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

7. What assessment he has made of the extent to which the Turkish Government provide support to Hamas in its conflict with Israel.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood)]

We are aware of reports that Turkey maintains a dialogue with Hamas. We call on those in the region with influence over Hamas to press them to end the armed violence and to support reconciliation and peace talks with Israel.

[Mr Hollobone]

With Khaled Meshal, the exiled Hamas leader, reportedly expelled from Qatar to safe haven in Turkey, will the Minister insist that the Turkish Government, as a NATO ally, renounce any affiliation to, and support for, this internationally recognised terrorist organisation?

[Mr Ellwood]

I had an opportunity to meet President Erdogan just before Christmas. We raised the issue of what more Turkey could do to assist the peace process, and it is very much on board. I am not aware of information that Khaled Meshal has left Qatar, although I have seen the media reports as well, but wherever he is, it needs to be understood that Hamas must play a role in working with the Palestinian authorities to move the peace process forward.

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[Mr Philip Hammond]

The Boko Haram terrorist group continues to wreak havoc across north-east Nigeria, and we must see that as part of the broader challenge of militant Islam across a swathe of the globe, from west Africa to the middle east. We continue to support the Nigerians and work closely with them. We are one of the leading partners for the Nigerians, and we have provided a substantial package of UK military intelligence and development support to Nigeria. Last week, I had a meeting with the US Secretary of State to co-ordinate our response to the crisis in Nigeria with the United States, and I expect to visit Nigeria with him after the Nigerian elections.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

T3. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and I are campaigning hard for a majority Conservative Government at the next election so that we can have a referendum on our membership of the European Union. Should, heaven forfend, despite our best efforts, we fall short of our goal, does he agree that our Conservative party commitment to an EU referendum should be a red line in any coalition negotiation?

[Mr Hammond]

The Prime Minister has made it clear that any Government of whom he is Prime Minister will be committed to that referendum.

Nigeria

Philip Hollobone Excerpts

Monday 12th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Swire]

I think I said earlier that the solution should be regional. Some of those countries, such as Niger and Cameroon, are on the borders of Nigeria and are already affected. However, we cannot offer help if the country we are offering it to does not want it, so we have to hear more from the Nigerian Government about how the international community can assist, particularly locally. Hopefully, a force such as the hon. Lady suggests can come from that.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

No one can have a sensible discussion about Nigeria unless they consider its exponential population growth. In 1950 there were 33 million Nigerians, and there are now 175 million. The UN’s central estimate for 2100 is that there will be 730 million. One in five Africans is Nigerian, and half the population is under the age of 14. Against the background of that huge demographic instability, is the Minister satisfied that the Foreign Office understands the potential catastrophe for Africa of a successful Islamic insurgency in that country?

[Mr Swire]

We are extremely concerned about the problem spreading—I have already said that—but let me look at the glass as being half-full, rather than half-empty as my hon. Friend sees it. Nigeria is the richest economy in Africa, and it has huge talent—we have only to look at the Nigerian diaspora in this country to recognise that. It is rich in resources, so there are huge opportunities for it. However, it has endemic problems, such as a disparity of wealth, including a north-south geographical disparity, that is far too great.

I believe that if an incoming Nigerian Government of whatever persuasion in February are determined to invite in the international community in a more open way to help rebuild a modern Nigeria, they can become a shining beacon on the African continent of what such a country can achieve.

Oral Answers to Questions

Philip Hollobone Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Swire]

My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary reminds me that such issues always are raised. He will certainly raise them. We are aware of the recent comments by Prime Minister Najib regarding the Malaysian sedition laws. We will look at his comments about the proposed legislation closely. We are clear that the Malaysian Government should conform to international standards and norms.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

11. What estimate he has made of the number of rockets in Hezbollah’s arsenal in southern Lebanon which could be deployed against Israel; and what diplomatic efforts his Department is making to seek a reduction in that number.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood)]

We are aware of continued reports of Hezbollah’s arsenal of weapons in southern Lebanon. Those weapons pose a threat to regional security and are in violation of UN Security Council resolutions.

[Mr Hollobone]

Hezbollah’s extensive arsenal contravenes UN Security Council resolutions 1559 and 1701, which call on it to disarm, yet the UN peacekeeping force in Lebanon has not stopped the re-arming of Hezbollah and rarely inspects Hezbollah-controlled villages for illicit activity. Given that every Israeli city is now within range of the rockets, will the Minister use his good offices in the UN to ensure that the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon has the resources it needs to police southern Lebanon effectively?

[Mr Ellwood]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. That matter was raised with me during my visit to Israel. We are committed to supporting peace and stability in Lebanon. Since 2012, the UK has been delivering a $31-million programme to train and equip the land border regiments to provide stability. More work needs to be done with the UN and we must ensure that Hezbollah agrees to the UN resolutions.

Palestine

Philip Hollobone Excerpts

Monday 1st December 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

I am sure that everyone in the Chamber today wants to see a prosperous Palestinian state alongside a safe and secure Israel. I am certainly a supporter of the two-state solution and I voted for the recognition of Palestine in the recent parliamentary debate. I hope it worries all of us greatly that the situation in the region is once again at risk of spiralling out of control. Renewed efforts must be made to coax both Israel and the Palestinians back to the negotiating table to secure the two-state solution, which I hope we all want.

We have heard much today about Israel’s actions and responsibilities. I am sure that all of us, whatever side of the argument we might be on, would agree that Israel is far from perfect. Some of its actions are undoubtedly counter-productive, especially and most visibly in its settlements policy, but in securing a final peace agreement the onus cannot simply be on Israel. Negotiations, as has been said, are a two-way process. It requires strong leadership from both sides and give and take, and the Palestinians have obligations to meet and fulfil as well. I suggest that what the Palestinians need and have never had is a Nelson Mandela-type figure who can unify the Palestinian cause behind a non-violent solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

The recent violence in Jerusalem cannot be seen in a vacuum. It has been fomented, I am afraid to say, by repeated, inflammatory and false allegations from the Palestinian Authority, Fatah and Hamas, accusing Israel of planning to destroy the al-Aqsa mosque and other Muslim holy sites. There has been no word at all about the fact that Jews were completely forbidden to worship at the western wall between 1948 and 1967, and a slight restriction on access to Haram al-Sharif has been inflamed out of all proportion.

President Abbas fanned those flames when he wrote a condolence letter to the family of a Palestinian terrorist, saluting him as a martyr. Palestinian Authority television opened a recent news broadcast by saying: “Good morning to you, good morning…to your hands preparing to throw stones and ignite the gasoline in the Molotov cocktails.” No peace can hope to be achieved with inflammatory statements such as that, from what is effectively a state broadcaster.

[Mr McCann]

I also want to place a point about Judaism on the record. Jewish people are particularly prohibited from taking their holy books to the original site of the holy temple for the Jews, where Jesus overturned the tables and the Prophet Mohammed rose up to heaven. The state of Israel is allowing people to go into that site and praise whatever religion they follow, but it prohibits its own people from taking their holy books there.

[Mr Hollobone]

That is in complete contrast to the Jordanian rulers between 1948 and 1967. The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely good point. How can it help the peace process when President Abbas says that Israeli Jews should be barred from the Temple Mount complex “using any means”? How can it help the peace process when President Abbas says that the Israeli moves on the Haram al-Sharif compound amount to a “declaration of war”, and when he calls for a “day of rage”? What is required in these circumstances is leadership and moderation.

In his fluent address opening the debate, the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) said that the purpose of the debate is to identify some of the obstacles to moving the peace process forward. I would contend that that incitement from the Palestinian Authority at the very highest level is not helping the peace process. Her Majesty’s Government need to tackle the Palestinian Authority so that these words of incitement and inflammation are stopped.

Iran (Nuclear Talks)

Philip Hollobone Excerpts

Tuesday 25th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

In his statement, the Foreign Secretary confirmed that the November 2013 interim agreement commits Iran to freezing certain areas of its nuclear programme in return for limited sanctions relief and the repatriation of $4 billion-worth of oil revenues. Although the sanctions relief and the oil revenues are transparent and measurable, freezing areas of its nuclear programme is not. Given that there is either limited or no inspections access to nuclear and weapons facilities at Fordow, Natanz, Arak and Parchin, how confident can he be that Iran is freezing these areas of nuclear development, and is not secretly using this extended deadline to produce enough fissile material to develop nuclear weapons?

[Mr Hammond]

We are highly confident of that. The technical representatives of the E3 plus 3 review these issues regularly. We do have access to and visibility of what is going on. The arrangements under the interim agreement for monitoring are effective, and we are confident that Iran is complying with its obligations—in some cases, complying with our interpretation of an obligation even where there may be some uncertainty in the wording of the document itself.

Iran (UK Foreign Policy)

Philip Hollobone Excerpts

Thursday 6th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Straw]

I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman. I was heavily involved after President Khatami reached out to the United States in the moment of need. Iran provided significant practical help, without which it would have been far more difficult to remove the Taliban and to retake Kabul. Iran got no thanks for that, however. It was unnecessarily rebuffed by the United States at the time, as it was during the 2003-05 nuclear negotiations. It was also rebuffed when it sought a comprehensive bargain with the west. I am afraid that that prospect was greeted in parts of the United States with suspicion. In my view, there was a worry that if a deal was struck that resulted in the normalisation of relations with Iran, the part of the American system—and, indeed, the part of the Israeli system—that always likes to define itself against some kind of enemy would have had that enemy removed.

Twenty-five years after the collapse of the Berlin wall, the metrics of the middle east have all changed. The view of the Netanyahu Government in Israel, which is echoed by many in the United States Congress, is that Iran now poses an existential threat to the state of Israel because of the doubts as to whether Iran’s nuclear programmes have a military purpose. Those programmes are the subject of the intensive negotiations that will, we hope, have reached a satisfactory conclusion by 24 November.

As it was I, along with my French and German counterparts, who began the original E3 negotiations with Iran in 2003, I offer the following observations. Iran is not an easy country to negotiate with. That is partly due to cultural and linguistic problems and partly for historical reasons, but fundamentally it is a product of Iran’s complex and opaque governmental system, in which the elected President has constantly to broker decisions with unelected elements, including those in the revolutionary guards and those in the Supreme Leader’s office.

Unlike North Korea, which pulled out of the non-proliferation treaty, or India, Pakistan and Israel—all nuclear weapons states which have never accepted the treaty’s obligations—Iran has stayed within it. The treaty protects

“the inalienable right of all the Parties to the Treaty to develop research, production and use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes”.

However, the treaty is silent on the question—critical to the outcome of the negotiations—of the enrichment of uranium. The Iranians claim a right to enrich uranium for peaceful purposes, and I hope the whole House will support them in that. The interim agreement signed last November explicitly recognised that.

The last set of negotiations, which took place between 2003 and 2005 and in which I was directly involved, ran into the ground. The Bush Administration had undermined the Khatami Administration through the “axis of evil” speech, and they did so again by refusing to offer Iran any confidence-building measures until it was too late. By that time, conservative forces in Iran had re-gathered their strength, with President Ahmadinejad the result.

When parliamentary colleagues and I met Foreign Minister Zarif in Tehran in January this year, he pointed out that when I had been negotiating with him in 2005, Iran had fewer than 200 centrifuges. After eight years of sanctions, it now has 18,800. We should be careful what we wish for. The good news about the current round of negotiations is that both sides have kept them confidential. However, it is no secret that the Iranian Government cannot do a deal unless it includes a continuation of enrichment for peaceful purposes, and unless the scale of the programme allowed does not involve the Government having to make significant numbers of its scientists redundant.

The negotiations are predicated on the basis that, because of Iran’s past failures to make full disclosures to the International Atomic Energy Agency, there remain unanswered questions about the true intent of Iran’s nuclear programmes. None of us outside the inner workings of the Iranian Government can know for certain what this is. My own instinct is that after the trauma of the Iran-Iraq war, Iran probably did begin work on a nuclear weapons system. More recently, however, a 2007 US national intelligence estimate—which has been reconfirmed by the White House in the past two years—concluded that Tehran had halted nuclear weaponisation work in 2003. If that is the case, there is no reason why, with some flexibility on both sides, a deal should not be concluded. If that happens, the gradual lifting of sanctions—which Iran so desperately needs—will help to bring Iran back fully as a partner in the international community.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

I am listening carefully to the right hon. Gentleman’s well-informed speech, and I am impressed by it. In 2004, Hassan Rouhani, who was then the chief nuclear negotiator, stated:

“While we were talking with the Europeans in Tehran, we were installing equipment in parts of the facility in Isfahan…by creating a calm environment, we were able to complete the work”.

Is not that an ominous warning for the current negotiations?

[Mr Straw]

I have seen that quotation before. One of the truths about the Iranians is that they have a history of sticking to the letter of what is agreed while trying to make that agreement as accommodating to themselves as possible. They are not the only country to do that. However, it was Hassan Rouhani—now President Rouhani—sitting across the table and leading the negotiations, and I believed that he was a man with whom we could do a deal. I am glad that the present British Government self-evidently still think that; otherwise, they would not be sitting across the table from his representatives now. There is no evidence one way or the other that what was being installed at Isfahan was related to the weaponisation of the nuclear programme. I have seen no such evidence whatever, and Iran has a right to a nuclear power programme in the same way as any non-nuclear weapons state does.

My plea to the British Government is that they do not make the best the enemy of the good in these negotiations. Just as the world changed 25 years ago with the collapse of the Berlin wall, so it is changing again before our eyes, especially in the middle east. With chaos in Iraq and in Syria, many now see the potential of Iran to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. A deal that is good for both sides would have other benefits, not least for human rights. There cannot be anyone in the House who does not share the profound concern about aspects of Iran’s human rights record, including the recent incarcerations and executions.

One of the truths about Iran’s complex and opaque system of government is that the elected Government do not control the judiciary. There are other unacceptable elements of the regime. The more we are able to do a deal—of course on acceptable terms—the more it will empower the elected Government and the better able we will be to secure a resolution of the other concerns, including those on human rights. The reverse is also true.

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[Sir Richard Ottaway]

I have great regard for my hon. Friend’s views, but there are not many countries in the region that have a human rights record quite as bad as Iran’s. None the less, he makes a valid point, and it has to be taken into account. The question I was asking was: can we trust President Rouhani? The right hon. Member for Blackburn, who has known him for many years, suggests that we can, and I hope that he is right. The question is: what if he is wrong? That is the challenge we all face.

Rather worryingly, the Supreme Leader has been interfering in Iran’s nuclear ambitions, with his call for industrial levels of centrifuges and nuclear material production, which caught the negotiators by surprise. When President Obama suggested enriching nuclear rods in the United States in 2009, the Supreme Leader pulled the rug from under that issue as well.

At the UN, President Rouhani suggested there should be a link between helping the west deal with the situation in Iraq and concessions in the nuclear negotiations. I have only one response to that, which is no, no, no. That cannot be the basis on which we proceed. To have a few more enrichment centrifuges for a bit of co-operation is exactly the wrong sort of deal.

Looking at the negotiations—the deadline is fast approaching—a number of deals have been suggested. Any settlement must have two main features. One is the break-out time. The Foreign Affairs Committee proposed a minimum of at least six months. The second is a verification programme that must be as robust as possible. That must be supported by a rigid inspections regime. It is critical that the International Atomic Energy Agency stays involved throughout the whole process and brings its professionalism to any verification and inspection. There is, in any settlement, a trade-off between reduction in capacity and the relaxation of trade sanctions as an incentive to encourage progress.

There is much talk about the number of centrifuges that can be used for peaceful production. I have been advised that the figure is somewhere in the region of 2,000 to 4,000, against the 18,000 currently in use. Obviously, the fewer centrifuges there are, the greater the time for break-out, and that has to be right at the centre of any negotiation settlement.

We also need to be satisfied that the objectives of the base at Arak, which is the home to the heavy water reactor, are peaceful. Iranians have yet to come up with a good explanation of those objectives. They argue that the facility is being used for medical research, but there is far too much capacity there for that, and no economic reason has been forthcoming.

[Mr Hollobone]

I am listening with interest to my right hon. Friend’s hugely impressive speech, particularly to the bit about the lack of inspections. I believe that the Arak facility was last visited in August 2011 and, despite repeated requests from the IAEA, no further visits have been allowed since.

[Sir Richard Ottaway]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and that goes to this question of trust. If visits are prevented, how can we trust people when they say what is going on there?

As we approach the deadline, there is little sign of a deal. There is still prevarication. The Foreign Office should be prepared to sign up to an extension of the deadline if that is what is needed. The time is on the west’s side at the moment: the sanctions have had an impact, even though they are a crude weapon; the oil price is falling; and the Iranian economy is shrinking fairly significantly. This is the right time to do the deal, but the window is narrow, as the situation has become more complicated by the mid-term election results in the United States. An increasingly confident Republican-controlled Congress is set to make life more and more difficult for President Obama as he reaches the end of his presidency. Rouhani’s time is also limited, as he is trying to fight off the hardliners. If there is no deal, Rouhani will be weakened, the hardliners will be back and they cannot wait for this deal to fail, and the hostility to the west will grow.

If Iran gets a bomb, the middle east arms race will accelerate, and the security situation will get worse. Russia has a role to play. There were reports yesterday that some processing may be done in Russia, which is a great idea if it is possible and achievable. As has been said about Ukraine over recent months, we must keep the lines of communication open with Russia, mainly because they are a key player in settling the deal in Iran.

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[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

It is pleasure to follow the remarks of the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) about his constituent. Obviously, all of us in this House hope that the case can be resolved in a satisfactory way as soon as possible.

I have been hugely impressed by all the speeches I have been privileged to hear in the debate so far. We have heard from the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), my right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Sir Richard Ottaway), and my hon. Friends the Members for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon) and for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham). I am sure we will hear an excellent speech by my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex (Sir Nicholas Soames) in due course.

What we have not heard, explicitly, is anyone saying that it would be completely unacceptable for Iran to have a nuclear weapon. That is the position that I stand by. I think it would be unacceptable to this country, and to the world, for a dangerous regime such as that in Iran to have a nuclear weapon. I do not particularly want to cast aspersions, but I suspect that some Members of this House would actually be content for Iran to have a nuclear weapon; indeed, I have heard Members say that. That is a perfectly defensible position, but I have not heard it put forward today.

What we have also not heard today is the Israeli perspective. Iran, as the right hon. Member for Blackburn said, is a country of 77 million people, second only in the middle east to Egypt’s 85 million. If we stack that up against the Israeli state, with 8 million people, we can see that from the Israeli perspective Iran is the biggest bully in the playground.

As my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex said, it all comes down to a question of trust. Why should we trust Iran? I very much respect the judgment of Members of this House who know far more about this subject than I do, especially former Foreign Secretaries and hon. Members who have been to Iran and know some of these individuals. However, if I were a citizen of Tel Aviv, despite the huge respect I would have for the right hon. Member for Blackburn, I would say to myself, “Well, this gentleman obviously speaks with a huge amount of experience, and he has spoken to Hassan Rouhani and others, but what if he is wrong? What if the regime in Tehran is mad enough and bad enough to want a nuclear weapon and to use it?”

We had a similar debate when China was developing nuclear weapons and Mao Tse-tung said, “What does it matter if we lose several million Chinese people? We can take out our enemies in one go.” It would be possible to take out most of Israel with one nuclear weapon. The holocaust was not really that long ago in strategic terms. Half the Jewish population of the world was wiped out in Europe, supposedly under the safety of a Christian civilisation, so if I were an Israeli citizen, although I might respect the right hon. Gentleman’s wise words, I would be saying to myself, “What if he’s wrong? Where’s my insurance?”

That is why this House has to wake up, smell the coffee and realise that there is simply no way on earth that Israel is going to allow Iran to have a nuclear bomb. It represents an existential threat to half the Jewish population of the world. It does not really matter what we in this Chamber think about that; Israel, quite rightly, will say, “We are not going to accept this.”

The Iranians are going about things in all the wrong ways. We have heard that there are cultural aspects to that. We are told, for example, that the Iranian way of approaching the world is different from that of the west; that there are complications of language and history; that the only rules they want to stick to are those that suit them; and that we should look at this through a diplomatic prism. At the end of the day, however, we are talking about 8 million Israeli citizens who fear for their lives. They fear that Iran will get enough nuclear material to stuff into one of its Fajr-5 rockets and launch it at Tel Aviv or Jerusalem.

Iran is going about the negotiations in all the wrong ways, because it is doing all the bad things that none of us like. Iran is a major exporter of terror, not just to the middle east, but around the world. If it really wants to do a deal with the west, why has it not backed off from supporting Hamas or from stocking up an arsenal of 100,000 rockets in southern Lebanon? Another Israeli fear, of course, is not just nuclear weapons, but Hezbollah launching 100,000 rockets all in one go at the Israeli population. It does not matter how sophisticated Iron Dome is—it is not possible to take out 100,000 rockets launched in one go.

The exporter of this terror—its funder—is Tehran. These are not nice people. They might have gone to English universities and they might have an understanding with very senior Members of this House, but this regime is extremely unpleasant, not only to its own people, but to others in the region and further afield.

[Mr Mike Hancock]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that one of the most important things the right hon. Member for Blackburn said was that we should be careful what we wish for? I think that some people sometimes wish for something that cannot be delivered. I strongly support the line taken by the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone).

[Mr Hollobone]

The hon. Gentleman and I both hope that the right hon. Member for Blackburn is right, but what if he is not? That would put Israel in a really serious situation.

[Ms Abbott]

The hon. Gentleman has said that the Iranians are not nice people. Does he think it is wise to characterise an entire nation, and even an entire regime, in that light? Even within the regime there are different factions. Is it helpful to talk about them in those terms?

[Mr Hollobone]

The hon. Lady is quite right, to be fair. If I have implied that the Iranian people are not nice, I apologise. What I mean is that the regime is not pleasant. I perfectly understand that the Iranian people—the Persian people—are among the most sophisticated people in the middle east, and we have heard a lot about that in this debate. The hon. Lady is right to pick me up on that point. What I am saying is that the regime is extremely unpleasant and extremely bad and that some of its members are potentially mad. That is what worries the Israeli Government.

If I were an Iranian who wanted to impress the west with my intent and why I should be trusted, I would be keen to allow the nuclear weapons inspectors into my nuclear facilities. Despite repeated requests to access Natanz, Parchin and Fordow, inspectors have been either stopped or obstructed in undertaking their work.

Enrichment is also an issue. Iran has enough fissile material at 3.5% or 20% enrichment to be able to develop, if it has enough centrifuges, enough nuclear material at 90% enrichment for six nuclear bombs. That is the worry. The Supreme Leader has said recently that Iran has an absolute need for 190,000 centrifuges, which is 10 times the number it has at present. Any deal done on anything remotely like that basis would be a very bad one, because Iran would then have the ability to break out of any restrictions placed by any such treaty on developing the material for those six missiles. Of course, it already has the ballistic capability to deliver that material on to Israel or Saudi Arabia at very short notice.

The central question posed to all of us by my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex is: can we trust the Iranians? My answer is that I have not seen enough evidence to suggest why we should trust them. Of course, the big problem is that, if we get the answer to that question wrong and if the Iranians really are not trustworthy, it is not so much us in the United Kingdom who will pay the price, although the situation will be bad for us. The people who will really be at peril are those of Israel, Saudi Arabia and other countries in the middle east, and there will be a nuclear arms race that will add fuel to the flames in an already volatile region.

ISIL: Iraq and Syria

Philip Hollobone Excerpts

Thursday 16th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

The hon. Gentleman’s intervention just goes to underline how complex the situation is. We are not dealing with a conflict; we are dealing with a number of conflicts that interact with each other and mean that some of the participants have multiple considerations that they are dealing with when they decide how to act. Progress was being made—has been made—in Turkey over the last couple of years in resolving differences between the Turkish state and its Kurdish population. Significant progress has been made. I am afraid that what is going on now across the region is not helpful to that process and is not taking it forward. I think it is probably premature at this stage to speculate on the end outcome, but clearly the relationship between the different Kurdish groups in the four different countries is a crucial part of the overall conflict.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has used strong language in his statement. He says that Islamic State is “an evil which is a direct threat to our national security.” He says that it is possessed of a “poisonous ideology”. He says that it is “a barbaric force that has no place in human civilisation in the 21st century”; and he says that it “represents a major threat to us, here at home, particularly at the hands of returning foreign fighters”. Given that, with the assent of this House, Her Majesty’s armed forces are now engaged in military action against Islamic State, given that we have all witnessed on television the beheading by a British jihadist of British and American aid workers, and given that the offence of treason still exists, but has not been used since 1946, will the Foreign Secretary ensure that British jihadists who return from Iraq and Syria are prosecuted for the offence of treason? Their actions are treachery against Her Majesty, and aiding and abetting enemies of Her Majesty is one of the greatest offences a British citizen can commit. The message should go out from this House—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman has been in the House a long time. He knows that this is not an opportunity to make a speech. He has made his point very powerfully and I am sure the Foreign Secretary will respond equally powerfully.

Government Strategy Against IS

Philip Hollobone Excerpts

Friday 12th September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

I think the answer is considerably more complex than the hon. Gentleman allows. This kind of perverted Islamist ideology has been around for a considerable time and is found not just in Iraq but in parts of the world where there has not been the kind of intervention that the previous Government undertook in 2003. It is also the case that in Iraq ISIL seized the opportunity presented by the loss of support for the Baghdad Government among the Sunni population in central Iraq. One of the key tasks for the new Government in Baghdad will be to win back mainstream Sunnis to support the democratic Government.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Is it the assessment of Her Majesty’s Government that the 10 Arab countries that have signed up to the coalition so far are unable to co-ordinate effective air strikes between them without the assistance of the United States and the United Kingdom?

[Mr Lidington]

The first step has been to rally as many countries as possible to form a broad-based coalition. What is now happening and will continue at the Paris meeting is detailed consideration of the part that each country can play. We saw in Libya that a number of allies from the Arab world were prepared to play a very active role indeed.

Kashmir

Philip Hollobone Excerpts

Thursday 11th September 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

I welcome all Members to today’s extremely important debate on the political and humanitarian situation in Kashmir.

[Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone.

It would be completely wrong to start this debate without reference to the recent devastating floods in Kashmir. Much of the area either side of the line of control has been devastated. The press reports that are coming in on an hourly basis paint a grim picture. We hear of substantial loss of life on both sides of the line of control. The press reports I have received recently discuss the loss of life and the 1 million people who are deprived of basic services, but then refer quite hopefully to the Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan offering at the weekend to help each other to deal with the disaster, which I am pleased to say temporarily diverted attention away from fighting along the border. Alas, that was not to be for long.

The latest we heard on Wednesday was that violence had again flared up on the line of control, with two dozen soldiers fighting militants even as flood rescue operations were under way elsewhere. Three militants were shot dead by Indian troops in Kashmir after a gun battle. Similarly, on the other side, we heard comments from a prominent Islamist in Pakistan who accused India of water terrorism. Can anyone believe that? He accused India of causing flooding across the border by discharging dam water downstream. In such a short space of time, we have seen the seriousness of the issue, as well as the despair that many, many people here and across the world must feel when they consider the conflict in Kashmir.

I want to give a little more detail. The latest information from the European Commission’s humanitarian office states that, in Pakistan-administered Kashmir, the flooding has caused 231 deaths—undoubtedly, there will have been more by now—injured 401 people and affected 580,000 people in 1,460 villages, with 5,400 houses partly damaged and 2,400 destroyed. In India, more than 200 people have been killed and 50,000 have been rescued with help from the Indian army. As I mentioned, more than 1 million people have been affected because the flooding has cut off basic services. In addition to the Minister’s response to today’s general debate on the long-standing conflict between India and Pakistan, will he comment on the Government response to the humanitarian crisis currently faced on both sides of the line of control?

I thank the hon. Members for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) and for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) for supporting my application for this debate, and I thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting it. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) could not support my application because he is a member of that Committee, but I know that he supports the debate. I also thank the Jammu Kashmir Self Determination Movement (Europe) for supporting the debate, for supporting me and for galvanising support throughout the country, by helping to get many thousands of signatures on the petition that demanded a parliamentary debate.

I have spoken to a lot of groups and organisations— I will refer to some of them later in my speech—but I found the contribution from the Kashmir Development Foundation to be of real help and value, particularly in terms of the importance of the Indian, Pakistani and Kashmiri diasporas, both in this country and internationally, and the positive impact that they could have on the situation in Kashmir.

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[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

Order. This is clearly an important debate that has attracted a lot of interest. We have until 4.30 pm and 13 hon. Members wish to speak; my humble role is to try to make sure that you all speak. If the Front Benchers start their remarks just after 4 o’clock, that will give them 10 to 15 minutes each. If the 13 Members speak for eight minutes, with no extra time for interventions—you may take interventions, but no extra time will be added—you will all get in. That eight minutes is a maximum, not an optimum.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

In exactly a week’s time, the people of Scotland will go to the polls in a referendum to decide the future of our country. The debate has been hotly contested and not without its ill temper; but imagine the outrage on both sides of that debate if the Indian Parliament, the Lok Sabha, were today debating the merits or demerits of Scottish independence and passing judgment upon what we in the United Kingdom see as a matter for us, and us alone, to decide.

The Simla agreement between Pakistan and India is actually quite specific upon this point: it requires the two countries to deal with Kashmir bilaterally and without the involvement or interference of any other state. India and Pakistan have both signed that agreement; it is therefore disingenuous for any politician here to claim that this is somehow a matter in which they have a legitimate role or voice.

Certainly, it is the role of all hon. Members to represent the concerns of their constituents. I do not doubt that or disparage the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) for seeking to do so. But I believe that it is still the custom for every Member, on first entering this House, to be sent a copy of the speech of that great parliamentarian Edmund Burke, in which he speaks to the electors of Bristol in the following manner:

“it ought to be the happiness and glory of a representative to live in the strictest union, the closest correspondence and the most unreserved communication with his constituents. Their wishes ought to have great weight with him; their opinion high respect; their business unremitted attention… But his unbiased opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living. These he does not derive from your pleasure, no, nor from the law and the constitution. They are a trust from Providence, for the abuse of which he is deeply answerable. Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.”

I would ask all hon. Members who contribute to this debate to have the humility to reflect upon and cast their judgment over the following salient fact. Earlier this year, the people of India conducted the largest exercise in democracy and expression of the public will that has ever been concluded in the history of humanity, when 550 million free Indians—7 million of them living in Jammu and Kashmir—voted in peaceful elections. Nobody was assassinated; nobody refused to leave office. The world witnessed an orderly transition of power, as one Prime Minister gave way to the democratic will and passed the levers of state to a new Prime Minister with a different political vision for his country.

In the last elections to the 89 seats in the Legislative Assembly of the state of Jammu and Kashmir, 61.23% of the electorate—a total of 6.479 million citizens— expressed their confidence in the democratic structures of the state of India by voting. They also expressed their faith that the choices they made would find proper expression through their elected representatives under the constitution of India. It is worth recalling that 74.9% of the population of Jammu and Kashmir is of the Muslim faith, because simple mathematics then gives the lie to those who would claim that this is not true for the overwhelming majority of Muslims in Jammu and Kashmir.

The fact is that millions of Muslims in Jammu and Kashmir will make their way to the polls later this year, just as they did in 2008, but there is a significant difference this year. In the general election earlier this year, three of the six Lok Sabah seats from Jammu and Kashmir were won not by the traditional parties of power, but by the Bharatiya Janata party, which actually took the largest share of the vote in Jammu and Kashmir despite having promised to scrap article 370, which gives Jammu and Kashmir special status under the Indian constitution. It won 32.4% of the popular vote ahead of the National Congress party, ahead of the Peoples Democratic party and ahead of the Jammu and Kashmir National Conference party, which finished on 11.1%.

The significance of those statistics cannot be lost on anyone with any understanding of Indian politics. The Bharatiya Janata party—the Hindu nationalist party, led by Narendra Modi—is regarded as the no-nonsense scourge of cross-border Pakistani-sponsored terrorism and topped the poll in Jammu and Kashmir. What should that tell the world? Perhaps that the people of Jammu and Kashmir want the constant cross-border interference from Pakistan to stop.

The border between India and Pakistan that lies along the state of Jammu and Kashmir is 1,125 km long. Jihadi terrorists have been infiltrating along that length for more than 40 years and the construction of underground tunnels and the cover fire provided by the Pakistan military has been a constant means of undermining India’s security and integrity.

More than 20,000 people have already been killed by terrorists in Jammu and Kashmir, and it is no use hon. Members here in this Chamber of all places condemning the radicalisation of young Muslim men in their own constituencies, while ignoring the fact that those young men are trained in the terror camps that are operating on the Pakistan border with Jammu and Kashmir. Those who continue to argue to undermine the legitimate sovereignty of India might do better to reflect that the people of India live in a relatively transparent and well-functioning democracy where the economy is growing.

Those who point to the presence of the Indian army in the state of Jammu and Kashmir might reflect that it is not Indians who have seen successive Governments overthrown by military coups, and that if it were not for the constant cross-border attacks the Indian army would not need to be there with such a strong presence. It is there to guarantee the country’s border integrity, nothing more.

Many of the victims of the cross-border terror have been Muslims. That is, of course, particularly so in the Kashmir valley, where by far the overwhelming majority of people are followers of Islam. I welcome the fact that on his recent visit Prime Minister Modi spoke of the need to give specific help to those bereaved families. Another group from the Kashmir valley who deserve specific attention is, of course, the Kashmiri Pandits, who for so long have been displaced from their homes because of the fighting and live in the sort of refugee camps that, were they elsewhere in the world, would be a constant item in our evening news.

I welcome the fact that Prime Minister Modi’s first intervention after his election to office was to ask Nawaz Sharif to come from Pakistan to attend his inauguration. I welcome the fact that, as Prime Minister, he visited Jammu and Kashmir just last month, not to engage in political rhetoric against Pakistan’s continuing border violations, but to inaugurate a new hydroelectric power project. To my mind, he seems to be doing as he did in Gujarat and focusing on bringing prosperity and development to people in the belief that votes will follow. It is right that peace in the subcontinent over the issue of Jammu and Kashmir will come only when people living on both sides of the line of control see their quality of life and standard of living improve. With that in mind, it is ill-judged for British politicians to be debating the history and status of people who are currently facing the most devastating floods in 50 years.

Our attention should surely be on the human plight of the people of Jammu and Kashmir and the humanitarian crisis of the people affected by the bursting of the banks of the Jhelum river. At least 200 people are known to have died and thousands have been stranded. Against that background and while politicians here have been raising questions alleging human rights abuses by the Indian army, the Indian army itself has mounted an enormous relief operation that has already saved the lives of 76,500 people in the flood-affected area. It has deployed 30,000 troops for rescue and relief operations, the vast majority of them—244 columns—deployed in the Srinagar region and the Kashmir valley. Eighty transport aircraft and helicopters have been mobilised, and almost 1,000 helicopter sorties have taken place, dropping almost 1,000 tonnes of relief materials. Eighteen relief camps have been established to deal with the appalling aftermath of this natural disaster.

Perhaps those who have shown themselves so keen to decry the actions—

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

Order.

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[Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab)]

It is always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I welcome my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley (Mr Spellar), who will respond on behalf of the Opposition. I also welcome Barrister Sultan Mahmood, who is in the Public Gallery. He has been working on the matter for about 30 years—as long as I have been—and he has always tried to convey a fair perspective on the situation, which is what we need in order to resolve it. We need more people like him to do that.

After the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) opened the debate, my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) spoke about Edmund Burke. I will try to plough a furrow through the middle of those contributions and see if I can achieve some sort of balance. I think that we are somewhat sidestepping the real problem by talking about self-determination. The real problem is that, for the past 70 years, while we have talked about whether we want self-determination, whether we want to be with India, whether we want to be with Pakistan or whether somebody wants to go off with China, the people of Kashmir—particularly Jammu Kashmir—have been suffering. They have suffered an immense amount of difficulty, torture and instability. As my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) has said, rather than trying to take sides in the debate, we need to look at the people who currently have no rights.

Members have raised significant issues, including the size of the Indian army in Jammu and Kashmir. We need to consider how many armed forces personnel are there, what their duties are and what they are about to do. Why is it that, when a male member of a family leaves his home in Jammu Kashmir, his wife, sisters and mother are left wondering whether he will come back, whether he will ever be found again or whether he will return having been tortured and perhaps maimed for life? Why is it that, when a female member of a family leaves home, the rest of the family is left wondering whether she will return with her dignity fully intact, if indeed she manages to return at all? People face those significant issues day in, day out. We must support those people, as they are the ones who most deserve our support.

As has been mentioned, mass graves are a significant issue. There is not enough time to talk about that. Amnesty International and a number of Indian non-governmental organisations have looked at that issue and say that 10,000 people have been buried in mass graves. A barrister, Parvez Imroz, has been working hard on the issue. He estimates that at least 8,000 non-combatants have disappeared.

People have said that India is a democracy, but democracies should be open to investigation. Why has there still been no investigation by the Indian Government to try to address the issue? As has been mentioned, the Indian armed forces have special powers in Jammu and Kashmir. Why have no military personnel been tried in that area? In 2012, the United Nations said that the Indians have draconian laws, which is not acceptable in a democratic state. India professes to be democratic, so it should act as a democratic state and not have such laws.

If we want to support people in Jammu and Kashmir, they must be allowed the right to a health service that looks after them. They need a proper education service in order to grow and move forward. They need a proper structure of devolved government. Scotland has been given the right to hold a referendum. Such a referendum can take place in Kashmir only if the people of Kashmir have those basic, natural rights. They also need a transparent and accountable political structure. A lot has been said about the forthcoming elections in Jammu and Kashmir. Will proper United Nations, European Union and Inter-Parliamentary Union observers go there to see the transparency and openness of those elections for themselves so that we can stand in this place and quote the figures openly and honestly? It is important for us to look at such things.

We must provide a stable economic structure for the people of Kashmir so that they are able to deal with those things. People keep talking about the armies of Pakistan and India, but the real issue is that there have been a number of serious skirmishes on the border, and if we allow those skirmishes to continue, what happened in 2003 will happen again. There will be brinkmanship followed by a state of war between two regional nuclear powers, which is not what we want.

In order to move forward on these serious issues, we need to address the human rights and civil liberties of the people who are stuck in the region through no fault of their own and who only want to have a proper, decent life. They want to be able to move forward, so we need to do that. It has already been tried. When General Pervez Musharraf was President of Pakistan, a number of confidence-building measures were put in place between India and Pakistan. We need to put some of those measures back in place, but above all we need to consider the people of Kashmir. We must speak to them and let their voices be heard. Ultimately, whatever their religion, they are Kashmiri, and we should support them and ensure that they have the civic right to live their own life in that country.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

As a reward for those Members who have not yet been called, rather unusually, I accept, I will raise the time limit to nine minutes.

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[Gregory Barker]

I would not say middle-aged either, but I get the gist.

Over many years in the House I have had the great pleasure of listening to a number of speeches by the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), and I must say that the one he gave today was the best I have ever heard from him, not least because he quoted so approvingly a great Tory philosopher and statesman. If he wants to improve the tone of his speeches in the Chamber more generally, perhaps he should quote approvingly great historical Tory figures at greater length in future.

I understand the emotions that this debate has given rise to. Everyone present agrees that, wherever in the world and by whomever they are committed, human rights abuses will never be condoned by anyone in the House. We all want Kashmir to live in peace and prosperity.

However, there is a difference between us. There are those who are much more concerned that the British legacy in India means that we should tread much more carefully in seeking to express views on, let alone intervene in, the internal politics of that great democracy, and there are those who seem to presume that we have some enduring legacy that gives us the right to interfere. British insertion into what I see as an explicitly domestic issue for India and Pakistan is deeply unhelpful. We should be mindful not to insert ourselves. With the greatest respect to my hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths), as much as I see no role for the United Kingdom, I see no role for the United States either.

Unlike many other people who have spoken in a very informed way this afternoon, I am not an expert on Jammu and Kashmir—I have visited India many times, but never that region. However, in my time in the Government, I was privileged to get to know a tremendous politician who is a former Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir, my former opposite number in the Indian Government under the previous Administration, Mr Farooq Abdullah. It is just wrong to pretend that people from Jammu and Kashmir are not playing a vibrant role in the life of the world’s biggest and greatest democracy.

I know that others have mentioned it already, but we must remind ourselves that the recently concluded Indian elections were the largest exercise in democracy in the history of the world: 550 million free Indians, including 7 million from Jammu and Kashmir, voted in peaceful elections and witnessed the orderly transition of power to a new Government with a new vision. We should not cease to celebrate that. As we look around at a globe with so many troubles and so much strife, we must ensure that we praise and single out a triumph of humanity such as democracy in India. Elections for the legislative assembly of the state of Jammu and Kashmir had a turnout of more than 61% in 2008, which is significantly higher than in presidential elections in the United States. I expect that the turnout will be very substantial in the elections later this year.

It is worth reminding ourselves that the place we are discussing is not England. It is a beautiful part of the world, but it is very different. India’s land border with Pakistan in that state is 1,200 km long. Jihadi elements and terrorists are infiltrating into India from Pakistan as part of a terror campaign. The border is porous and must be protected. Soldiers are there not simply to intimidate but to protect the integrity of not only Jammu and Kashmir but the whole Indian nation, which has been subject to vile terrorist attacks, just like we have in the west and in the UK. Obviously, on 9/11 we remember in particular the attacks on the United States. It is important that wherever democracies stand up against terrorism around the world, we stand shoulder to shoulder with them.

I do not want to labour my points any further. Although I understand that Members wish to speak up in defence of their constituents and articulate their concerns, particularly those of constituents who are of Kashmiri origin, we must nevertheless look forward, not back. We must be mindful of India in the 21st century, rather than look back to a role that we may have played in the 20th century. We in Westminster should concern ourselves with forging a new relationship that looks firmly to the future, not with the internal affairs of that great democracy.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

We have a late entry into the debate: hot off the plane, Mr Gavin Shuker is going to speak until 4 o’clock.

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am extremely grateful that you have allowed me to speak, Mr Hollobone, and I will keep my remarks short. As you mentioned, I have just got off a plane at Heathrow and so missed the early contributions to this debate, for which I feel greatly the poorer.

I want to make two specific points. First, from listening to the debate I understand that there seems to be a question about the legitimacy of the topic for discussion and whether we should restrict our contributions. We want the region of Kashmir to be a flourishing area for democracy. I am reminded of Bill Clinton’s comment that it is not only about majority rule but minority rights as well. When we talk about the region, it is vital that we understand that it is about not only who gets to vote and how, but the conditions in which that vote takes place.

There is damage and death on all sides in the ongoing conflict. That leads to a great sense of anger and frustration among many people who live in this country and want their voices to be heard in Parliament, and it also drives broader trends in the UK. I do, therefore, think that it is a legitimate topic of conversation. Fundamentally, it is an issue not of India or Pakistan, but of justice. We need to talk about the region and its future ongoing success, which can come only from the resolution of this issue, from justice and from security.

Secondly, I want to make a series of specific recommendations relating to the concern expressed by some Members that we should stay out of this area of conflict. I know from my role as a shadow Department for International Development Minister that we are a major donor to both India and Pakistan through our international development work. I believe that through that engagement we could do a great deal to help the people of Kashmir to resolve the issue.

First is the issue of democratic strengthening. We spend significant amounts of money in-country and know that allowing democratic structures to flourish makes a real difference. A number of leading organisations have identified concerns about the rights not only of political parties but of ordinary citizens to get justice.

Secondly, there is a greater role for the diaspora community in this country to play in helping to shape our response across the whole region, not only in individual areas and countries. I hope that we will be able to say more on that in the coming months because it is important that we feel a sense of ownership and recognise the historic ties in the region.

Thirdly, there are a number of cross-regional priorities. Currently, DFID cannot even tell us what we are spending in particular areas. We know that the resolution to this conflict can come only when there is an alignment and a recognition from great nations—they are possibly becoming superpowers—in the region that, without resolving this issue, they will be held back. They stand right on the edge of stepping up in our generation to become great nations and great influences in the world. That is why it is right for us to continue to ask these questions and to keep this debate going.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

I will now call the Front-Bench spokesmen. If the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs can conclude his remarks at 4.27 pm, that will give Mr David Ward three minutes to wind up the debate.