Data (Use and Access) Bill [Lords]

Polly Billington Excerpts

Wednesday 7th May 2025 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart]

The right hon. Gentleman is right to remind us about journalism. What has been notable, along with the clumsy way in which the Government have approached these issues, is the unity that exists throughout the creative sector, taking on board what is happening in journalism. We have seen some fantastic coalitions of interests emerging from all this. That is another positive development, and I just hope that the Government are satisfied when they see the outcomes.

AI and creativity can work together. I gave an example of that to the hon. Member for Mid Sussex (Alison Bennett). We have all been encouraged to think that there is a divergence between the position of those in the creative sector, such as artists, and the position of those who are involved in the tech sector and, in particular, AI. There should be an approach that works for everyone involved. The AI companies know that our content is immensely valuable. They refuse to pay for anything at present, not because they do not understand the value but because they have spotted an opportunity to hoodwink Governments around the world into believing that they should not have to pay for an essential resource.

[Ms Polly Billington (East Thanet) (Lab)]

One of my colleagues had a conversation with representatives of the AI sector. She was very enthusiastic about the idea that there would be an enormous amount of growth in this country if they were able to adopt what they wanted, so she asked, “What would you like?” They replied, “We want the BBC archive, for free.” In circumstances of this kind, we need to think not only about transparency but about the second stage, which is licensing. Without the opportunity for small creators to have the power to permit and therefore to be paid, all this will be for nothing.

[Pete Wishart]

The hon. Lady is spot on. The Minister continues to go on about licensing arrangements, and I think that is the territory we want to move this on to. We need to hear more about the Government’s ambitions right now, and about what they are planning to do. The hon. Lady should have a look at the submissions to the consultation from the big tech companies such as OpenAI—it is a horror show. An opt-out is even too far for them.

I have enjoyed working with Labour colleagues during these debates. They have said all the right things, and I think that, as usual, they recognise some of the difficulties in the sector, but I appeal to them now to support, in particular, new clause 2, if it goes to a vote. It is no good just saying all the right things; this is about voting in the right direction. There is no other chance, because this is the only opportunity. We must offer some protection to our creative sector over the next few years, because nothing else will appear during that time. We will all become involved in the consultation and we will all be taking part in the legislation when it comes here, but that is years away. This is the only thing that we can do to offer some support to the creative sector, and I urge everyone to support the new clauses.

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[Jen Craft (Thurrock) (Lab)]

I rise to support the Government’s amendments and new clauses, particularly new clause 16, which addresses the relationship between artificial intelligence and copyright and which I strongly welcome. By slightly broadening the scope of the Bill, the amendments demonstrate Ministers’ attention to this pressing detail and reflect some of the comments by colleagues and the creative sector.

The existing legal framework with regard to copyright is not fit for purpose in the face of new and developing AI technologies. Colleagues who have much greater expertise and knowledge than me have contributed to this debate, but I want to offer a reflection and draw attention to the experience of an individual—one of my constituents—as I believe it highlights the real human impact that big tech companies can have in running rampant over copyright laws.

My constituent, Susan, is an author. She has had 32 of her books and, she calculates, more than 1 million published words used by Meta without her consent. The pirating of material has serious human impacts on those in the creative industries. Susan’s life work and source of income was downgraded and devalued almost instantaneously. Her intellectual property was accessed without her permission and used to inform an AI system designed to mimic her work. Susan described that to me and said that she felt violated, as if someone had come into her house and stolen her things, and she is not alone.

I have been contacted by other professionals in the creative industries in my constituency who have also had published material used without their consent by AI. A local author has had their works harnessed through an online library of pirated books, and a local illustrator said that her work was scraped to train an AI model with images and videos taken from websites and social media without her permission. That practice is widespread and plainly wrong, even to a lay observer who is not versed in technical expertise, yet rightsholders are often impotent against big tech companies and their sizeable financial and legal assets.

[Ms Billington]

I observe that there is an issue of territoriality here. We have actually managed to get carve-outs and protect this country from deepfakes, for example; if something is made abroad, it cannot be used in this country. Does my hon. Friend agree that we should be able to have similar carve-outs for creatives, such as her constituent and my constituents, so that if AI-generated material is made elsewhere, it cannot be deployed in this country, in order to preserve a proper legislative framework to protect the rights of our creatives?

[Jen Craft]

My hon. Friend highlights a very strong issue. I agree that our current copyright laws are basically being infringed on and people who are rightsholders are unable to seek the recourse that they fully deserve under the law. There should be a carve-out, so that if there is illegal content in this country, people should have recourse to the law and be able to protect their own copyrighted material. I am pleased to see the Government commit to action on this complex issue. I hope that time will be allowed in the House for us to scrutinise this issue and to investigate properly the impact of policy options, which will be considered as part of the consultation.

I understand the complexities of legislating in this area, but those in the creative industries want to see action now, which is understandable. We must create a system that can feasibly and effectively enforce existing copyright law, bring transparency in the use of materials by AI systems, and remunerate rights holders. I support the Government’s plans to do this through primary legislation with proper scrutiny of the measures, rather than through an addendum to a broader piece of legislation. However, I appreciate that there is a balance to be struck—where growth is supported in both the creative and tech industries—but creatives must never be expected to forfeit their rights to serve that purpose.

As my constituent is at pains to point out, real people and real livelihoods are already being impacted by unregulated AI. It is crucial that we get this right, and provide much needed legal certainty to protect intellectual property in the creative industries. This must happen soon, because, while infringements of copyright law go unaddressed, it is those in our vital creative industries who are losing out.