Live Debate: Commons Chamber

Urgent question: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if he will make a statement on the accuracy of data used to justify the restriction of jury trials in relation to rape victim attrition rates and Magistrates’ Court capacity.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, to ask >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker, to ask the Secretary of State for justice if he will make a statement on the accuracy of data used to justify accuracy of data used to justify the restriction of jury trials in relation to rape victim attrition rates and magistrates court capacity.

15:40

Rt Hon Robert Jenrick MP (Newark, Conservative)

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No no, no. inherited an emergency in our criminal courts with record and

15:40

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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rising caseloads, leaving victims facing agonising delays, leaving many accused seeking to clear their name, wasting, facing agonising delays. While some defendants game delays. While some defendants game the system in the hope that their accusers simply give up on justice. accusers simply give up on justice. We inherited a system where, quite truly, justice delayed is justice denied. That is why we ask Sir denied. That is why we ask Sir Brian Leveson to undertake his independent review of the criminal courts. He presented us with his report.

We considered that report carefully. And on Tuesday the deputy Prime Minister announced the government's proposals in light of that report. Following many of the recommendations on Tuesday, the Deputy Prime Minister announced part of our plan to tackle that emergency and in so doing he centred victims. He commented as part of that case that victims of rape are pulling out of trials, 60% are pulling out of cases. He told LBC that 60% of victims of rape are actually pulling out of cases before they come to trial.

That statement is accurate. It is unacceptable that around 60% of victims who report rape drop out of the criminal system. And we know after speaking to victims, to campaign organisations, to those that represent those victims and support them, that for many, the fact that their trial may not come to court for several years is a key factor to them deciding to withdraw from the process, or perhaps not to even report the case at all. The system was not designed for a scenario where victims face such delays for justice.

No one in this House thinks that the system is anything other than broken, and that we are failing the British public. On the second part of the question, it remains the case that the vast majority of cases, the less serious but still important everyday cases, around 90% of all criminal trials are already heard in our magistrates court, where cases continue to be dealt with swiftly and robustly. Our magistrates hear around 1.3 million cases a year, and it is not unusual to have an open caseload of over 360,000 cases, as is currently the case in our magistrates court.

This ensures that there is around six months worth of work ready to be heard. We know that our magistrates court deal with equivalent cases those triable either way, cases that can be heard either in the magistrates or in the Crown four times faster. We are working to bring in new and diverse magistrates over the next 12 months, and will continue to recruit at high levels in future years, but ultimately, we must ensure that the Crown Court has the capacity to deal with those who commit the most serious crimes so that victims do not have to face those agonising delays and do not withdraw before their case even gets to court.

That is a situation where justice is simply not being served, and the government will not watch idly by whilst the system continues to fail those victims. It's for that reason we are bringing forward our bold proposals and reforms, coupled with record investment, to ensure that victims and the wider British public is served, and so that we

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can put to bed once and for all. Justice delayed is justice denied. Robert Jenrick.

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Robert Jenrick. Mr. speaker, the government is slashing jury trials under false slashing jury trials under false pretences. Last week, the Justice Secretary suggested that 60% of those who report being raped are now pulling out of cases because of court delays. But Home Office

15:44

Rt Hon Robert Jenrick MP (Newark, Conservative)

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court delays. But Home Office statistics show this year only 9% of rape cases were abandoned after a charge was brought. That's not good enough, but the fact is, the figure is down and the number of victims based prosecutions is near its peak. And in some parts of the country, the backlog is far, far lower and rape cases are rightly being prioritised. The Justice Secretary's plans will do next to nothing to cut backlogs for rape victims, but his claims are certain to further erode the confidence women have in the justice system.

And it wasn't just that claim that didn't stack up. The justice secretary said that he will divert cases to the magistrates courts because they do not currently have a backlog. But as of September, there is a backlog or open caseload, as the Minister now calls it, of 361,000 cases, up 25% on this government's watch. He claimed that scrapping juries will cut trial times by 20%. But Sir Brian Leveson's own review found that figure to be highly uncertain, and that further detailed analysis was required.

Mr. speaker, there's still reams of questions unanswered. He won't let the Crown Court sit around the clock. When today, 63 courtrooms sit completely empty. He won't rule out making these changes to those who are already in the court backlog. And he won't publish modelling that shows victims of rape will wait less, or indeed any modelling whatsoever, unless the Minister can answer these questions today. We can only conclude that they simply don't know if the government wants to make a major change to our Constitution, something that we have enjoyed for 800 years.

It should do so on the basis of facts, not baseless claims. This plan is already unravelling as the last attempt to do this did 20 years ago. It's not too late, I say to the Minister to avoid a humiliating defeat.

15:46

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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Minister. >> Mr. speaker, as I said a moment ago, there is not a single person who works in the system. Not the who works in the system. Not the barristers, not the prosecutors, not the judiciary, not court staff, not the judiciary, not court staff, not anyone that I have met. Not victim, not juror that has encountered the system that thinks it is working as it should. That startling defence of the status quo whilst not just women and girls, but victims of all backgrounds, continue to watch the delays creep up and up and up.

80,000 cases currently in our Crown Court backlog. Behind each and every one of those cases. An individual human story, someone waiting to clear their name. We inherited a broken system, and rather doing than doing what the previous government did, stick their head in the sand and hope that it would go away. No solutions. Years of underinvestment whilst undermining our justice system. We were not prepared to do the same. That is why it was so important to ask an independent review made up of one of our leading judges, Sir Brian Leveson.

Academics, data scientists, taking the evidence both in this country, consulting and looking at comparators across the world for a set of proposals at reform. How could we fix the system? In the meantime, the government has been gripping the crisis, making record investment in sitting days, increasing magistrates courts, sentencing powers in investing in legal aid and in the capacity of our legal community. But no responsible government worthy of its name would take receipt of an independent review, carefully considered evidence based, informed by experts and say, do you know what? We'll just ignore that.

Responsible government shows leadership. That is why last week we announced our proposals, our proposals to increase magistrates courts sentencing powers, to remove the right of a defendant, to insist on the choice of a jury trial when the case can be reasonably and proportionately and swiftly dealt with in the magistrates. We followed Sir Brian's recommendation to establish a Crown Court bench division to deal with cases more swiftly. What his report says is that, in his view, and the view of his expert team that will provide time savings of at least 20%, and on that basis, taken together, investment, modernisation and systemic reform, we will begin to see the backlog coming down.

That is government offering solutions. Evidence based, expert led solutions. Whilst all we hear from the other side is what can't be done. Letting down victims, letting down the public and ultimately undermining the faith in one of the most important institutions in this country, our justice system.

15:49

Andy Slaughter MP (Hammersmith and Chiswick, Labour)

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Chair of the Justice Select Committee. Andy Slaughter. >> Thank you. >> Very much. >> Mr. Speaker. There's no reason why the government should not consider mode of trial as part of consider mode of trial as part of its reform of the criminal courts, but they would find more support if they could better evidence the they could better evidence the effect of these changes. To what extent will the proposed changes to jury trial reduce the backlog? What proportion of cases, proportion and type of cases will no longer be eligible for jury trial? And if courts are going to be swifter and have greater sentencing powers, what effect will this have on the prison population?

15:50

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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I'm grateful to the chair of the Justice Select Committee for his Justice Select Committee for his reflection. That mode of trial is something worth worth looking at. Of course, the government will be providing an impact assessment when it brings forward the necessary legislation that will need to accompany these reforms. But I would suggest to him that we do have an evidence base. The evidence base is that provided to us by the independent review of the criminal courts. We also have the very real evidence base that at the moment, the kinds of offences that we are talking about, the kinds of evidence, the kinds of offences that we are talking about are those triable either way, offences not summary only already dealt with in the Magistrates Court, not those indictable only offences which will always have a jury trial in our Crown Court but triable either way offences.

And at the moment you can either opt for magistrates trial or you can opt for a Crown Court trial. And what we know is that where defendants opt for magistrates trial, those are being heard four times faster on average than that when they're heard in the Crown. That is a pretty strong evidence base coupled with that of the IRC. So of course we will need to present the impact assessment of the particular package that we are bringing forward. But there is no doubt that this government is taking action on an evidential basis that we have been provided by through an independent review.

15:51

Jess Brown-Fuller MP (Chichester, Liberal Democrat)

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Jess Brown-Fuller Liberal Democrat spokesperson. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Liberal Democrats agree that under the current system, victims and survivors of rape are being failed survivors of rape are being failed and far too few see justice actually served. However, for those victims that do decide to proceed through the justice system, less through the justice system, less than 10% withdraw after a charge has been made. So the Deputy Prime Minister, standing in the chamber and using the assessment of the data to justify his reasoning for removing jury trials, doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

It seems a number of the deputy prime Ministers backbenchers agree with the Liberal Democrats, including the former deputy Prime Minister herself, that the delays that plague our system will not be addressed by reducing jury trials with the government, neither diagnosing the cause of the crisis or providing the solutions to the record backlog. How does the justice how does the government justify restricting jury trials when backlog issues are caused by court mismanagement and broken private contracts, rather than the jury system itself? Identified and confirmed by those working in the system from all sides.

And will the Minister confirm which stakeholders, including victim support organisations and legal professionals, have been consulted on these reforms, and what feedback has she received?

15:53

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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Minister. your last question first, which is that all of the bodies that she refers to, victim support victims refers to, victim support victims organisations, the legal community, the Bar Council, the Law Society, all of those stakeholders have all of those stakeholders have engaged over many, many months. First with the independent review of criminal courts led by Sir Brian Leveson and indeed now with the Ministry of Justice. So that engagement is happening all the time and indeed those who represent victims, the incoming victims commissioner has said the system is broken and there is need for bold reform.

The bold reform that is recommended by Sir Brian Leveson's review is precisely the proportionate reform. Radical. Yes. Necessary, yes, that we are going to pursue. And in relation to her comment in relation to victims and the very significant figure, 60% of victims of rape that are pulling out of cases, victims pull out for many reasons. It's difficult to know exactly what is going on in a victim's head at any one time. But we know that for many, and we all know what the delays are in our courts.

We all know everyone is aware of how retraumatising the court process can be and how lengthy the delays are. We know from Rape Crisis, for example, that 1 in 3 sexual offence trials are the subject of adjournment. So not just the delay, but thinking you have a trial date only for it to be put off. No one can say that that is defensible. And for many, the fact that they might not come to court for years is key to them withdrawing from the process at whatever stage.

So it is material, and it is material to the context, and it is why action needs to be taken. One of the one of the very striking statistics why we need to do this was actually a data, a piece of data that was actually discussed at the JSC, brought forward by the CPS, that there are over 4000 cases that could have been heard in the Magistrates Court. But where our system, as it currently stands, privileged the defendant's right to insist on a jury trial at taxpayers expense, with the greater length of time that it takes such that such that the person who stolen the bottle of whisky or the bunch of flowers, the low value item has every right to insist on a jury trial being stuck in the same queue as serious crimes like rape, like murder, like kidnapping.

That is exactly how this works. And that is exactly what we are seeking. On Sir Brian's expert recommendation to take out from the queue in the system to to reassign it where it can be better and more swiftly dealt with, so that we can come on to those most serious cases in a swifter manner.

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As Sir Brian recommended. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have had a number of cases, include two recent, but when the opposition was recent, but when the opposition was was in power, a woman who came to was in power, a woman who came to me with her case, which was of historic child sexual abuse, her trial was being adjourned

15:56

Debbie Abrahams MP (Oldham East and Saddleworth, Labour)

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trial was being adjourned repeatedly, and there was risk that the perpetrator would die before the case was heard. I have now got two cases of children who are awaiting and have had repeated adjournments of their child sexual abuse cases, and I wonder if my right hon. Friend can reassure me in terms of how the proposals that the government is bringing forward might help to progress their cases because it's impacting on their lives, their.

15:57

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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Well, I'm very sorry to hear about her constituents case. It about her constituents case. It highlights very graphically precisely why reform is needed. It precisely why reform is needed. It highlights the very grave crisis in our criminal justice system, which, as Brian has told us, is on the brink of collapse. We need to take a holistic approach to this. We need reform. We need significant investment and we need modernisation. To the earlier question around efficiencies, do we need to improve the time it takes to bring prisoners from prison to court? Yes we do.

Do we need to improve and look at things like listing and whether that can be done more efficiently? Do we need to look at productivity in our courts? Absolutely. It's why we've asked the independent Review of Criminal courts to conduct part two of its review. And it's why we're looking at these issues very intently with MoJ. There is no silver bullet, and the mountain we have to climb is illustrated by her constituents case. And it's those sorts of stories that I have in mind that motivate me to work every day to see that we get these reforms through and deliver swifter justice for victims.

15:58

Rt Hon Sir Desmond Swayne MP (New Forest West, Conservative)

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So Desmond Swayne by. >> So Desmond Swayne by. >> My teacher, sir. >> Always required. >> Us to. >> Show our.

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Workings last week. Last week, the Secretary of State told us that actually only 3% of prosecutions proceed in the in in jury trials. How can such a small proportion being reduced marginally smaller produce? The savings that have been identified. Will she publish the modelling? Yes, Minister.

15:58

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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Well, we have the IRC review. We have Sir Brian Leveson's review. And in the careful analysis, over 388 pages, he sets out how his package of reforms will begin to package of reforms will begin to bear down on the backlog. And as I've said, of course, in the ordinary way, an impact assessment will be provided. But I can tell him and assure the rest of the House that unless we were confident that the package of reform and investment that we are bringing forward was capable of bringing down the backlog, we would not be pursuing it.

And of course, and of course, that's exactly what we are aiming at to see that the backlog comes down by the end of this Parliament, so we can deliver swifter justice for victims.

15:59

John Slinger MP (Rugby, Labour)

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John Slinger Mr. recall that the right hon. Member for. Newark was chastised by the office for Statistics Regulation office for Statistics Regulation when he was Housing Secretary? And does she further agree, therefore, that we will not take lessons from him?

15:59

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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Minister. >> Minister. >> Answer that one. >> Well, I wasn't here when he was failing to show his working out. failing to show his working out. What? But what I have observed, both in my professional life before both in my professional life before I came to this house, and now since I have been the courts Minister, is the way in which the previous government presided over an absolute collapse in criminal justice. The whole the so-called party of law and order, allowing the prisons to run boiling hot and allowing collapse of confidence in our court system, backlogs spiralling out of control, a collapse in confidence not just in the legal community, but in the victim community as well.

And unlike unlike his government, not only will we do the serious work of looking at where the evidence takes us, we identify the problem. We don't stand idly by. We get out there and make the argument for how we're going to fix it.

16:00

Rt Hon Steve Barclay MP (North East Cambridgeshire, Conservative)

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Stephen Bath thank you, Mr. Speaker. The logic of the Minister's argument seems to be that the Justice Secretary was repeatedly wrong in the past to repeatedly wrong in the past to defend jury trials, that many of her colleagues are wrong to have concerns, and that her own government was wrong, not to mention this at all. In the Labour Party manifesto. She's repeatedly refused to say whether she published modelling and referred to the impact assessment. So can you clarify? Has the work in the department been done on the impact assessment and she simply won't publish it? Or have they not done that work, in which case the claims she's making are without evidence? Yeah.

Minister.

16:01

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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Well, if he had attended earlier debates, he would know that I've been very clear that the state's been very clear that the state's obligation is to guarantee everybody who comes before the court a fair trial. Now, the court a fair trial. Now, the essence of a fair trial is a swift trial, not one that might be two years away. It's not a it's not a guarantee of a jury trial, because, of course, 90%, 90% of cases in this country already take place without a jury trial.

But I've also made clear that we believe in jury trials. I don't believe in jury trials, which are delayed for a couple of years, and where witnesses pull out the system and victims pull out the system. But I do believe in jury trials as a cornerstone of British justice. And as I've said, of course, the quantitative and qualitative analyses have been happening not just within Sabine's team, but also within the Ministry of Justice. And we will be publishing an impact assessment at the requisite time.

16:02

Sally Jameson MP (Doncaster Central, Labour )

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Sally Jameson. say, I'm pleased, if not a little surprised, to see how keen that the Conservatives opposition have been on talking about issues of criminal on talking about issues of criminal justice in recent weeks, considering they've shown next to no interest when they were in no interest when they were in government and I was working in the prison system, and I believe the last government stated they would bring the Crown Court backlog back to 53,000 by March 25th. So can the Minister outline what the backlog was when we took office in July 24th? Because I think that's incredibly important when we're looking at why we need to take the bold action that's been announced by the government in the last week.

Yes, Minister.

16:03

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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Well, I thank her for her question. And as she knows, we inherited record and rising inherited record and rising backlogs. And as I've said, we have a mountain to climb. We're trying to turn around an oil tanker. And we're not going to do that simply by sitting our way out of the problem. That's what Sir Brian Leveson concludes in his report. Of course, we need additional sitting days, and we're already sitting over 5000 more sitting days than we were when we took over in government.

But he concludes, in his view, that that alone will be insufficient to turn the tide on the backlog. And that is why we need system reform coupled with the

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investment. It's that that's going to do the job to bring down the backlogs to sustainable levels. Paul Kohler thank.

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You, Mr. Speaker. I have some sympathy. For the Minister. We all know. The Tories fiddled leaving our

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The Tories fiddled leaving our criminal justice system to burn. But as the Law Society president noted earlier this year, we are noted earlier this year, we are still not using our courts efficiently despite what the Minister said. So, can the Minister tell us what steps have been taken

16:03

Mr Paul Kohler MP (Wimbledon, Liberal Democrat)

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tell us what steps have been taken to increase court sitting days, court sitting days, and better make better use of our underutilised courtrooms?

16:04

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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Minister. do is to pay tribute not just to our judges, but our court staff and our hard working prosecutors and defence lawyers, because what we do defence lawyers, because what we do know is that judges in the Crown Court are hearing almost 30% more cases than they were pre-COVID. So cases than they were pre-COVID. So in that sense, the system is working harder, as I've just indicated. We have added more sitting days. We've added over 5000 more sitting days than was being sacked when we took over in government.

And I want us to go further. We need to match the system reform with investment, and I hope that we'll be able to come back to the House at the conclusion of the concordat process, which of course, needs to take its course and assure the House that we are sitting at maximum system capacity.

16:04

Emma Foody MP (Cramlington and Killingworth, Labour )

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Emma Foody. assault waiting for years for justice is horrific, and we should never forget in these conversations or the decisions, the toll that this process takes on a victim's life. So, can the Minister please confirm that victims will be kept confirm that victims will be kept at the heart of the justice system, and that this government will deliver timely justice for survivors?

16:05

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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Minister. >> As he so often does, she's hit the nail on the head. We have in focus at the heart of everything we're doing the goal of delivering we're doing the goal of delivering swifter justice for victims. The deputy Prime Minister announced deputy Prime Minister announced last week a package of £550 million towards victim support, keeping victims engaged in the process, which, as it takes longer and longer, is harder to do. And ultimately the best thing we can do for victims is to deliver on the promise of bringing down the backlog so they're not having to face these agonising waits to see justice done, because at the moment, if they pull out and very often in these cases, victims are the only witness to the crime if they pull out.

The worst thing about it is it's not even justice delayed is justice denied. Justice simply isn't served at all. So she's absolutely right.

16:06

Caroline Voaden MP (South Devon, Liberal Democrat)

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Caroline Voaden. >> I think we would all agree that any rape victim who withdraws from the criminal justice system is it's a tragedy. But I don't buy the faux a tragedy. But I don't buy the faux outrage from the shadow Secretary of State because I was a chief executive of a rape crisis centre when his party was in government. when his party was in government. And every single day I heard victims talk about the delays in the in the system, causing them more trauma, the poor interviewing techniques of police and the lack of understanding from the criminal justice system of the effects of the trauma they had been through under their watch and nothing was improving.

Now we know that rape trials will not be affected by this decision on jury trials. So I believe the Deputy Prime Minister was wrong to use that as a justification for changing the jury trial process. But has the government given any consideration, or will it be giving any consideration to a specialist court system for rape and sexual violence offences?

16:06

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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Minister. >> Well, I thank her and I thank her for the work that she did before coming to this house. It I before coming to this house. It I respect that experience and it's not clear that that sort of experience and range of experience is shared by everyone across the is shared by everyone across the House, including those who are so quick to criticise the attempts to reform what is a failing system. As as she points out, the best thing that we can achieve for victims of sexual offences, not just rape but other sexual offences too, is bringing down the backlogs.

And what we know from charities like Rape Crisis is some 17% of cases in the backlog relate to sexual offences. So if we can get a hold, get a real grip on this problem right across the piece from the magistrates all the way through to the Crown, then that it's that more than anything that's going to deliver swifter justice for the victims that she once supported.

16:07

Paulette Hamilton MP (Birmingham Erdington, Labour)

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Paulette Hamilton thank you, Mr. >> Paulette Hamilton thank you, Mr. Speaker. Jewellery trial. Jewellery trials allow ordinary citizens to participate in the justice system, ensuring community representation ensuring community representation and transparency, which many groups just do not trust. Can the Minister explain how our citizen involvement can be continued, and we do not see additional cases of miscarriage of justice and justice because of influenced by personal bias or external pressures that can

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potentially lead to unfair outcomes. Thank you. She raises a really important

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She raises a really important question. And of course, equality before the law is a fundamental principle, but also the importance principle, but also the importance of all our communities having confidence in our justice system. One of the worst, if you like, One of the worst, if you like, symptoms of the broken system we've got is so few people do have that confidence today. And I would say

16:08

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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confidence today. And I would say to her this, first of all, we are preserving the jury trial for the most serious cases. Second of all, these proposals that we brought forward are a vote of confidence in our magistracy, our magistracy, which is increasingly diverse and needs to be more diverse. Still, in London, over 30% of magistrates are drawn from the communities that they are serving and come from BME communities in the Midlands, where I know she has a lot of experience, the numbers are getting higher and higher, 15, 16% and we want more still.

So that is how we continue to include that really important democratic and community component in our justice system, so that communities like hers can continue to have confidence in it.

16:09

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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So, Julian Lewis. treatment today, of the 60% figure only tends to confirm my belief that one's better off with the that one's better off with the common sense of 12 ordinary people than one legal professional. Can than one legal professional. Can she even she's smiling. Good for her. Can she look again at this point? Which is that. Yes, it's a disastrous statistic. If 60% of women who allege rape drop the case before it proceeds to a conclusion. But if in fact, the figure is only 9% of people who drop the case after the alleged criminal has been charged, then the overwhelming reason for them dropping the case is not the length of the trial by jury.

It is the slowness between the reporting of the allegation and the criminal being charged. So will she accept that in this case you're looking at, she is looking at the wrong target? Yes, exactly.

16:10

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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Minister. spirit in which the question is asked, and I know that it's asked in good faith. But I also say this. As well as being a lawyer, I'm also As well as being a lawyer, I'm also a member of Parliament, and I'm also a woman. And the question that also a woman. And the question that was asked earlier was put very well, a single victim of whatever crime, rape being one of the most agonising one can imagine is one too many pulling out of the system.

We don't know exactly what's going through every victim's head, and I think it's right to say that the 60% figure was accurate on its own terms. We don't know. We don't know why exactly people might pull out the system. But what we do know is that everyone is aware. Everyone is aware that the system is broken. And they're aware that when they come even to consider whether to report the crime, what that might entail, knowing the delays and the agony and the bureaucracy that lies ahead.

And quite honestly, if something were to happen to myself or a loved one today and I were advising them or asking myself, would I want to go through all of that? Knowing what I do about the

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delays, I'd have to think long and hard about it. Anna Dixon thank you, Mr.

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Anna Dixon thank you, Mr. Speaker. On Friday I met with senior detectives in Bradford who senior detectives in Bradford who investigate and bring prosecutions for historic cases of child sexual exploitation and abuse, including exploitation and abuse, including group based abuse. They do all they can to support victims to get

16:12

Anna Dixon MP (Shipley, Labour)

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justice. And in fact, West Yorkshire Police were commended by Baroness Casey for the work they do. But it was clear to me that court delays add to the trauma that victims and survivors who bravely come forward experience, and that's true from those that I have spoken to. So can the Minister explain how these reforms are going to speed up justice for victims of rape,

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serious sexual offences and these vile grooming gangs? Thank you. Minister.

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Minister. Well, I'd like to start by thanking the hon. Lady for all the work that I know she does work that I know she does tirelessly for victims in her own community who have been so seriously impacted by some of the seriously impacted by some of the crimes that she outlines. My job is to take a look at the whole system

16:13

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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to take a look at the whole system and how the whole system is functioning for all victims, for those who are accused, for all participants in the system that are currently being let down. And so when you look at the whole package of measures that were announced last week, from the increase in sitting powers, the removal of the defendant's right to insist on a choice, but rather having the case triaged by the experts, namely the court itself. At the establishment of a bench division, which Sir Brian advises could be hearing cases at least 20% faster, as well as taking out cases like fraud from the list so that they can be heard by judge alone experts.

When you take that package together, all of that, we believe, can deliver swifter justice for victims, including the ones in her own community.

16:13

Rt Hon Sir Gavin Williamson MP (Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge, Conservative)

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Mr. Gavin Williamson. sides of the House we know how important these changes are and to get it right is absolutely vital. My right hon. Friend, the Member My right hon. Friend, the Member for North East Cambridgeshire, asked for specific question as to whether the department has done an whether the department has done an impact assessment. Could the Minister clarify as to whether this impact assessment has been done by the department, and will it be immediately published?

16:14

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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Mr. >> Mr. >> He's right that we need to and should have a robust debate about should have a robust debate about the best way forward to fix what is undeniably a broken system. As a undeniably a broken system. As a department, we have several sources of evidence and assessment, not least the work that was done by Leveson's review. We will bring forward the impact assessment at

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the appropriate time and the House will be able to scrutinise it then. James Wild. Thank you. Mr. Speaker. There's capacity.

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Mr. Speaker. There's capacity. For almost 2000 more court sitting days that are not being. Used for rape or.

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Used for rape or. Other trials at the moment. Why isn't the Justice Secretary prioritising funding these days to

16:14

James Wild MP (North West Norfolk, Conservative)

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help reduce the backlog, rather than trying to scrap jury trials? Minister. >> Well, we are looking where we

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Well, we are looking where we can to invest as much as possible, but I would remind him that what we've got to look at when we talk about investment in sitting days is system capacity. And that requires

16:15

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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not just judicial time, but it requires sufficient numbers of barristers, both defence and prosecution. And as my as the previous Lord Chancellor said, we previous Lord Chancellor said, we can't simply 3D print those. What we've got to do is invest in the professionals, which is exactly what we announced last week £92 what we announced last week £92 million in legal aid for criminal solicitors, an additional £34 million for the barristers. All of million for the barristers. All of that, plus, I should say match funding for criminal law pupillages to develop the talent pipeline.

All of that increases the system capacity so that when we add on the sitting days, it's not just a judge sitting there waiting for a barrister to turn up, which sometimes doesn't happen and leads to the trial being adjourned. We have enough system capacity to run at the most maximalist and most productive level possible.

16:16

Shaun Davies MP (Telford, Labour)

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Shaun Davies in Shropshire and wider West Mercia, victims of rape and other serious offences are and other serious offences are being told to wait for their jury trials into 20 2027, 2028 and even later. Meanwhile, defendants of later. Meanwhile, defendants of some other offences are opting for jury trials, having the magistrates jury trials, having the magistrates have already accepted jurisdiction. Isn't it time that we backed trust and empower our magistrates and district judges up and down this country.

16:16

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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To Minister? >> To Minister? >> Yes. And as he knows, when I came to visit the the Justice Centre in Telford with him, we spoke a lot about the role that magistrates play and I want to pay huge tribute to them. The proposals huge tribute to them. The proposals we brought forward last week are, as his question suggests, a huge vote of confidence in our magistrates, in our magistrates system to hear cases swiftly and robustly and we should back them. Mr.

16:16

Dr Luke Evans MP (Hinckley and Bosworth, Conservative)

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Can I. >> Both on her. >> Passion and her ability to get so many words in Hansard in an urgent question, in her responses. urgent question, in her responses. One bit of detail that we are missing, though, is she's been asked, and this will be the fifth asked, and this will be the fifth time about an impact assessment, she said. Again, the impact assessment will be brought forward at the appropriate time. The question was has it been written already and she's keeping hold of it, or it hasn't been written and will be brought forward at the appropriate time? I'd appreciate that clarity.

Just a simple yes or no.

16:17

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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Minister. which is that there'll be an impact assessment at the requisite moment. >> Chris Vince. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I find it heartbreaking to hear that there. Are. Victims of domestic violence, of rape and of sexual violence who feel that they are violence who feel that they are tackling a system that is absolutely broken. I can tell from a piece of paper that I've dealt with, of a young lady who was the victim of domestic violence, who had to wait so long for justice to be served. She actually returned to the perpetrator, which is not only terrifying to me, but obviously had a huge impact on her family.

Can I a huge impact on her family. Can I ask the Minister, working with my hon. Friend, the Justice Minister, to promise me that she will do everything she possibly can to ensure victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse and of rape get the justice they deserve as soon as justice they deserve as soon as they can Minister.

16:18

Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )

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I can give him that assurance that my hon. Friend and I are working incredibly hard. This is central to our government's mission to halve violence against women and girls, and we have to look at not just how the delays in our criminal justice system, but how the processes in our courts are often retraumatizing women and girls. And we are resolute in our efforts to we are resolute in our efforts to tackle exactly what he's just described.

16:18

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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Lincoln Jopp. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. respect.

16:18

Lincoln Jopp MP (Spelthorne, Conservative)

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Of jury trials. Spelthorne constituency, my mailbag is is quite full of people opposing the government's proposals. Just so the government's proposals. Just so we understand where the the Secretary of State is on this. Could could the Minister please explain to us what he's doing right now such that he couldn't come and answer this urgent question himself?

16:19

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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Minister. speech at the moment, launching the government's anti-corruption strategy. Yes. >> I hope it's been made to the

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I hope it's been made to the House first, though, Jim. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can I thank the Minister for her answers? thank the Minister for her answers? The rape victims must be paramount in all it happens for rape and sexual assault trials. This is

16:19

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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already a lengthy and very emotional process for the victims. Juries signal a public perception Juries signal a public perception of justice or highlight the importance of community and the average person. What assessment has average person. What assessment has been made on the impact that judge only trial can have on the victim of rape, and what steps will be of rape, and what steps will be taken to ensure judge only trials? Don't feel too less empowering as this step could increase victim attrition by feeling as if they don't have the support of the public.

Thank you Minister.

16:20

Sarah Sackman MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Finchley and Golders Green, Labour)

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Well, let me make very clear that for the offence of rape, there that for the offence of rape, there will always be a jury trial. And that was made clear in our proposals last week.

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proposals last week. Can I just say it's very helpful to get through the questions. And the Minister has done very well just to say justice does matter. And I think all of us are representing victims of crime. The more quickly we can get through,

16:20

Mr Speaker

the more happy we'll be. I say Chorley magistrates would love to be reopened to help. Right. We'll be reopened to help. Right. We'll

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Lewis Lewis Cocking Lewis Cocking Maccabi Lewis Cocking Maccabi Tel Lewis Cocking Maccabi Tel Aviv. If the front benches are ready for the next Urgent Question for the next Urgent Question colleagues should be seated. We can be. Marvellous. Who is waiting? UQ Nick Timothy Nick, I can't see Nick Timothy Nick Timothy.

16:21

Urgent question: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will make a statement on the adequacy of the evidence on which the West Midlands Police took decisions relating to the match between Aston Villa and Maccabi Tel Aviv.

Timothy Nick Timothy. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. So you ask the Home Secretary to make a statement on the adequacy of the evidence upon which West the evidence upon which West Midlands Police took decisions relating to the Aston Villa versus Maccabi Tel Aviv match.

16:21

Nick Timothy MP (West Suffolk, Conservative)

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Minister. concern and disappointment caused by the decision to ban away fans at Villa Park on the 6th of November. I recognise the continued strength of feeling within this house and in

16:21

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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the country more widely, and I welcome this opportunity to update members on the latest developments. The House will be aware that Chief Constable Craig Guildford, Constable Craig Guildford, Assistant Chief Constable Mike O'Hara and the Police and Crime Commissioner, Simon Foster gave evidence to the Home Affairs Select Committee last week. I am aware that Assistant Chief Constable Mike that Assistant Chief Constable Mike O'Hara has since apologised for some of his remarks in relation to Jewish community support for the decisions taken.

He will need to set out his correction to the chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee directly, and we will await, of course, the committee's conclusions. Any suggestion that the intelligence gathering and community engagement, led by West Midlands Police was anything other than of the highest standard would, of course, be a matter of profound concern. I am sure the House will understand. I remain limited in what I can say about the specific intelligence underpinning this decision whilst investigations continue. However, in my evidence to the committee last week and to this House before then, I explained that the Home Secretary had already commissioned His Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Services to review how forces in England and Wales provide risk assessment advice to local safety advisory groups and other bodies responsible for licensing high profile public events.

That wider report will be returned to the Home Secretary by the 31st of March, and before then, I can confirm that hemispheres will also provide a specific update on the intelligence gathered by the West Midlands Police on this matter, and how it was used by the end of the year. Of course, operational independence is an important principle and one we must protect. At the same time, scrutiny and accountability are essential, especially when it comes to issues with clear implications for public safety and public confidence.

It is absolutely right that West Midlands Police is asked to explain as fully as possible how this decision was reached. Sport is a source of joy and excitement for millions of people around the world. Football supporters should be able to follow their team, whatever their nationality, faith or background. That has been the clear and unequivocal stance of the government throughout this episode, and it will remain so.

16:23

Nick Timothy MP (West Suffolk, Conservative)

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Nick Timothy. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and and I thank the Minister for that response, including the news of the HMRC report by the end of of the HMRC report by the end of the year. The police intelligence used to justify the ban on Israeli fans from Villa Park has fallen apart. So has the evidence given to the select committee by Chief Constable Craig Guildford and Assistant Chief Constable Mike O'Hara. The police say their information came from the Netherlands after Maccabi Tel Aviv played Ajax last year, but the Dutch said the West Midlands Intelligence report was, quote, not true.

At the committee, the police repeated claims denied by the Dutch that the fans were militaristic. Three people in the river and targeted Muslim civilians. They even said the Dutch police had lied under political pressure from their own mayor. We are asked to believe that the Dutch police lied to their own people, the media, their justice and security inspectorates, their mayor, their government and even their king who told the truth once in a zoom call with West Midlands Police, which was never even minuted. The police again claimed the Dutch deployed 5000 officers, which is denied by the Dutch, but admitted to the committee that they made up the number themselves.

Asked if a fictional match cited in the intelligence report came from artificial intelligence, Craig Guildford told the committee not at all. But AI detection programmes conclude otherwise and the committee have already sorry, the police have already had to apologise for wrongly telling the committee the local Jewish community had supported the ban. Madam Deputy Speaker, there are many questions but I will limit myself to four. One did the Policing Minister believe the evidence the police presented to the committee? Two have the police replied to the letter she sent to them two weeks ago? Three Will she guarantee the publication of all relevant information and correspondence? And four does the Chief Constable retain her confidence as policing Minister and the confidence of the Home Secretary? The police are accused of fabricating evidence to justify a predetermined outcome demanded by Islamists.

They have had weeks to defend themselves and failed to do so. This is fatal for public confidence in the police and in justice. And in my opinion, the Chief constable must go.

16:26

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Minister Jones. >> Minister Jones. >> Can I thank the hon. Gentleman for his questions and for securing for his questions and for securing this urgent question today? I know that he will have watched the proceedings in the Home Affairs Select Committee with interest, and of course it will be for the for the Committee to draw their own conclusions. As I said in my statement, I think it's right that the police clarify the latest reports that we heard over the weekend.

Sadly, through the papers of a newspaper, rather than proactively but clarify what the situation is as regards to the engagement with the Jewish community and the conclusions that that came from those conversations. I think the the hon. Member will hopefully understand that I don't want to express judgement here when we have a very thorough process, which is ongoing, about the evidence that was gathered in order to reach the conclusion that that was reached in the case of the Villa match.

It is absolutely right that HMRC are looking at this and I know he is frustrated. I can hear that he is, but it's right that they go through that process. It's right that they talk to whoever they need to talk to, to get to the bottom of the pros and cons of the evidence, the way that he portrayed it, and the way that the West Midlands Police portrayed it. And we need to understand. I was also really clear that if it is the case that there is anything other than the highest standard in terms of what we would expect, that is a matter of profound concern.

And and it is also clear that mistakes have clearly been made in this process, not least the match, the the fictitious match that the hon. Gentleman referred to. So I want to get to the bottom of what happened. It's also the case that I have been on record praising West Midlands Police for things they have done in the past, and I wouldn't want to jump to those conclusions, but I do want to assure him that we will get to the bottom of this and we will act accordingly once we have that information.

He asked whether the police responded to me. Yes, they did, and. I think I can put that into the public domain should he want to see it. And he asked whether we we will publish the relevant documentation. Of course we we always want to publish what we can. And of course, the Home Affairs Select Committee have asked some some follow up points already from that committee, and we'll be very happy to provide it. And he asked whether I have confidence in the Chief constable, which I was asked last week.

And I'll repeat that, I have seen some very good work in the West Midlands across a range of issues, but we need to get issue.

16:29

Peter Prinsley MP (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket, Labour)

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So Peter Prinsley. >> So Peter Prinsley. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. So would the Minister agree with me that at the heart of this is the question of the truth and the question of whether the deliberation of the Safety Advisory deliberation of the Safety Advisory Group at the Birmingham City Council was compromised or prejudiced.

16:29

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Minister Jones. questions we're seeking to think about from the starting point that those safety advisory groups were those safety advisory groups were set up many years ago with in a different context. And it is right that we look at the way that police, that we look at the way that police, intelligence, police information is fed into those safety advisory groups. And that's what the main piece of work that the inspector is doing that is reporting by the end of March.

The piece referencing the West Midlands in particular, will report by the end of the year. The Home Secretary has also asked officials to look at Louise Casey's recommendations from 2021, that we signify events as nationally significant, and then perhaps we have a different model of looking at how we take them forward. There is also a review going on in the Cabinet Office around the guidance for safety advisory groups. All of these factors need to feed together when we have very large, significant events that have in, in this case, a globally, globally significant.

Clearly, we need to look to whether we can improve the structures that exist at the moment.

16:30

Matt Vickers MP (Stockton West, Conservative)

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Shadow Minister Matt Vickers. >> Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker, I'd like to thank my hon. Friend for securing this critical question today. It's important not to forget the context of this decision. This was a decision only weeks after the tragic events of the Heaton Park Hebrew Congregation attack. After the attack, the Prime Minister spoke to the Jewish people, and he said he would do everything in his power to guarantee them the security they deserve. But yet, when it comes to a club predominantly supported by Jewish people, they're suddenly deemed a risk to public safety.

This is not just inconsistent, it is an insult to the community still reeling from a violent anti-Semitic attack at the moment when Jewish families needed reassurance. This decision sent entirely the wrong message. It undermined confidence. It contradicted the Prime Minister's own promise and fell short of the duty we owe to the Jewish people to keep them safe. And why was this decision taken when the Minister addressed the House a couple of weeks ago? The Minister said that my colleague, the shadow Home Secretary, was jumping the gun a bit in saying that certain pieces of intelligence were just made up.

We now know that not only did imaginary matches somehow enter the intelligence picture, but officers giving evidence to Parliament were inaccurate about their dealings with the local Jewish community. That seriously undermines the integrity of this House and the vital work police forces do in securing accurate intelligence. The government have asked hemispheres to review the intelligence, but will the Minister go further and ensure the details are made public? We need full transparency, transparency and more accurate accounts than we have seen so far so that proper accountability can finally take place.

16:32

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Minister Jones. >> Minister Jones. >> Can I thank the hon. Member? I mean, just to remind the House that the Prime Minister's view and the the Prime Minister's view and the view of this government is that the decision that was taken was the wrong one. The Prime Minister was very clear about that from the outset, saying this is the wrong decision. We will not tolerate anti-Semitism on our streets. The role of police is to ensure all football fans can enjoy the game without fear of violence or intimidation, and that is our view and has been our view consistently since.

And we are trying to make sure we can avoid a situation such as this happening again. HMRC will do their report in the normal way and we we are asking them to do so in two stages, one with the first bit of information about West Midlands and the second the wider look at how police information is fed into safety advisory groups. And they will do that in the way that we would expect. I don't want to disagree with the hon. Member in what he says about the harm that this has done, and I'm very well aware and have had many conversations with Jewish colleagues and organisations since, since this incident, and hope that we can put it behind us by learning the right lessons and making sure we take the appropriate action.

16:33

Paulette Hamilton MP (Birmingham Erdington, Labour)

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Paulette Hamilton. >> Thank you. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, as someone who has had the pleasure of working with had the pleasure of working with the Chief Constable, he is a very considered man, saying that as an considered man, saying that as an MP who represents the adjoining constituency, who was given absolutely no information about what was going on. Can the Minister assure this House that lessons will be learned and the actions, the appropriate actions will be taken, that this will not happen again? Thank you Minister.

16:34

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Can I thank my hon. Friend for >> Can I thank my hon. Friend for her question? And of course, she raises an interesting point. She might not be the MP directly in the might not be the MP directly in the area, but of course, as the Member for Erdington, she's got a she has a very, very close interest. And a very, very close interest. And the SOAD committee as constructed at the moment has a couple of councillors on it. So there was representation.

But, but is that the right mix? And I think that speaks to this wider question of if there are issues of national significance, do we need to have a different, a different lens through which we view them? But I will do all I can in answer to her question.

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Yes, to make sure we get to the bottom of what happens and and learn the lessons in the appropriate way. Liberal Democrat spokesperson

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Liberal Democrat spokesperson Max Wilkinson. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. This has been a sorry saga from the This has been a sorry saga from the very beginning. First, we were told the fans had to be banned for safety reasons. Intelligence reports, we were told, said that Maccabi Tel Aviv fans were highly organised, skilled fighters with a serious desire and the will to

16:35

Max Wilkinson MP (Cheltenham, Liberal Democrat)

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serious desire and the will to fight with police and opposing groups. This was false. Last week, the West Midlands assistant chief constable told MPs the Jewish community in the local area supported the ban. This has now been found to be false too and he has rightly apologised. There are serious questions to be answered about West Midlands Police's handling of this decision. So will the Minister commit to supporting the setting up of any independent inquiries that are needed so we can get to the bottom of this? In excess of what is already going on? If that doesn't find the answers.

So those can be held to account. So anyone who is responsible can be held to account. And finally, with anti-Semitic incidents remaining at record highs in this country, the government must reassure the Jewish community of their safety. Ministers assured me last month that the Community Cohesion Strategy will be published when it is ready. They said can they assure us that the Jewish community remains part of this process, and can they give us a concrete timeline for its publication?

16:36

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Minister Jones? >> Minister Jones? >> Can I thank the hon. Gentleman? I very much hope that through the processes that I've listed, whether that's the I see FRS review into that's the I see FRS review into what happens when it comes to police intelligence and advice feeding into sags, whether it's the wider look at whether we need events of national significance or whether it's the Cabinet Office review of the role of safety advisory groups, I hope we will ensure that we don't have a situation like this ever again.

He speaks to what we would do if we don't get to the bottom of it. I very much hope we will. And of course I will come to this place. I will make sure the house has all the information it needs to see and make its own conclusion. He asks about the community cohesion strategy and absolutely, we are working hard on that. I think that I should say in the wider context of of protests and how we deal with issues where we know there will be large groups of people attending.

There is a wider piece of work that we are doing looking at the existing laws on protests that will help us navigate our way through whether the existing legislation is fit for purpose in a whole range of issues, where we have had significant concern about anti-Semitism rearing its head in, in, in protest, for example, and we are working really hard with Jewish organisations to make sure we get that right. And I can reassure him of that.

16:38

Laurence Turner MP (Birmingham Northfield, Labour)

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Laurence Turner thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I wish to associate myself with the associate myself with the sentiments expressed by my hon. Friend, the Member for Birmingham Erdington. Something has clearly Erdington. Something has clearly gone very wrong with the Safety Advisory group process in respect of Aston Villa, as the Minister to of Aston Villa, as the Minister to her credit has said from the start, I'm particularly concerned by the apparent absence of clear decision making processes and evidence and recording surrounding those processes, and I wish to know whether this is indicative of other decisions which may be made by respective police forces.

Can she confirm to the House whether, as part of her considerations, she is looking at new national minimum standards for the way that decisions are made and evidenced through safety advisory groups?

16:39

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Minister Jones. >> Can I thank my hon. Friend, the Cabinet Office is updating the guidance on safety advisory groups and is looking at exactly these and is looking at exactly these kinds of issues. I think there is a wider point about the needing to reference and account for and minute decisions when they are made and how they are made. We do that in government and we do it for a reason. It's because, you know, when when you are then questioned about your decisions, you have to have access to the right information about what was said when and to whom.

And I think that is a wider question that I definitely take away from this, this episode as well.

16:39

Rt Hon Dame Karen Bradley MP (Staffordshire Moorlands, Conservative)

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Select committee chair Dame Karen Bradley. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> I'd be grateful if the Minister could share any correspondence that she has with the committee because we are very keen to get full transparency on this issue. But could I ask her whether she shares my incredulity that the decision that was so sensitive appears to have been taken on the basis of a single zoom call that was unmonitored between a West Midlands Police officer and officers from Amsterdam, and they exercising social media scraping, which appears to led the police to believe that a match that had never taken place could be cited in the evidence for why the decision was taken to ban the way.

Thanks, Jones.

16:40

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Can I thank the right hon. Lady >> Can I thank the right hon. Lady for her question? Of course, the for her question? Of course, the mistakes that have clearly been made were played out in her select committee evidence. The mistake about that particular match. Does seem alarming, and the subsequent apology as well, the access to the intelligence and what was said. And when I I know she will find frustrating, but I will repeat I want HMRC to go through their proper process and to come to a conclusion because it wouldn't be right for me to base my conclusion on the evidence that I have before me.

It is absolutely the right thing to do that HMRC, frs come back to us on this and look at this thoroughly and we will take afterwards.

16:41

Chris Murray MP (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh, Labour)

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Mr. member Chris Murray. >> Mr. member Chris Murray. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank the Minister for her answers and her evidence at the Select Committee last week. It is Select Committee last week. It is shocking and deeply concerning that evidence from senior police officers at select Committee can officers at select Committee can fall apart within a week. This was a highly sensitive fixture and this decision has a significant impact on the Jewish community in the context of rising anti-Semitism.

Policing in this country depends on the principle of consent and the idea that all communities are treated fairly and equally. I know the Minister does not want to prejudge the outcomes of this specific case, but could you tell us her thoughts on the impact this whole issue is having on the principle of policing by consent and on different communities in the country?

16:42

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Minister Jones. >> Can I thank my hon. Friend. Policing by consent is the bedrock of of our policing. I think everybody across this House would everybody across this House would agree with that. Those peel principles that drive everything that we want our police to do. I that we want our police to do. I think there are a number of areas where that policing by consent model has been tested in recent years, and I think public order and protest is is a case in point.

It is very hard for the police and I praise them for virtually every decision that they make. When it comes to public order, most protests go ahead. Well are policed well. There are good relations between the protesters and the police, and the roots are discussed and debated and agreed. And the vast majority of protests happen in a way that we can we don't even notice because because the policing is done brilliantly. There are some absolutely excellent police who do this.

But, but, but when we get something wrong, of course, the public question what is happening and and question that confidence. And that is why it is so important that we in this place don't jump to conclusions. We get the right

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answers in a careful way, so that we can respond in a way that is the right response. Sandra Mitchell thank.

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Sandra Mitchell thank. You, Madam. Deputy Speaker, can I. Congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the urgent question today securing the urgent question today on this very important matter? Does the Minister agree with me that the Minister agree with me that it's not only the Jewish community who have been seriously let down, but all of us in the royal town of

16:43

Rt Hon Sir Andrew Mitchell MP (Sutton Coldfield, Conservative)

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but all of us in the royal town of Sutton Coldfield and across Birmingham have been let down by this sequence of events. And does she also accept that it is not right to blame the SAG who will always go on the whole with the police evidence that goes before that committee, which might well be an argument for looking again at the structure of the way these decisions are taken. Does she also agree that this looks like a maladroit political decision rather than a policy decision? And does she understand that many local people are very disappointed in the role of the police and crime commissioner, who is supposed to stand up for local communities and has not done so in this case?

16:44

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Minister Jones. >> Minister Jones. >> I was in Birmingham last week to launch our winter of action where the police is work, are working the police is work, are working very closely in our town centres with our retailers and other organisations to stamp down and organisations to stamp down and prevent crime. And I was with the police and Crime Commissioner and they are doing a good job at policing their community. The 4 million people who will go through the Christmas market in Birmingham will go through, and it will be a lovely experience for them.

So I'm not going to condemn anybody in this in this place. There are questions to answer, and I know that his community will be wanting answers to those questions, just like everybody else here. I know we want to get to a point where we can celebrate the fact that Villa won at the weekend, and that is the only story in town, but unfortunately, it isn't because of because of this. And we need to get to the bottom of it and I will get to the bottom of it.

This government will get to the bottom of what happened, and we will take the appropriate response afterwards.

16:45

Gareth Snell MP (Stoke-on-Trent Central, Labour )

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Gareth Snell thank you, Madam Speaker. sorts of decisions. Having several points of information is important. So is the Minister able to confirm whether UEFA were present at the Safety Advisory Group meeting when this decision to ban the Maccabi fans was taken, and, if so, what their advice was? And on a more broader point, does the Minister able to say what's the advice from UEFA is in general about banning any fans from any match?

16:46

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Minister Jones. >> Minister Jones. >> Can I thank my hon. Friend for the question? UEFA, as far as I'm the question? UEFA, as far as I'm aware, were not in the side meeting. There would have been conversations, of course, between Villa, who were of course, between Villa, who were who have to make the ultimate decision. So it is a complicated decision making process as as the right hon. Member from Sutton Coldfield said, the stag sits and looks at the advice the police give their evidence or their sort of opinion.

He's right. The member from Sutton Coldfield to say that on the whole, the stag would take the police's advice. But there are, you know, there are other views in that in that room. It is then for the local authority to decide whether they allow the event to have the correct licence. And then it is for Villa, in this case, to decide what that means and whether they do in fact not allow the fans to come. So it is quite a complex picture.

UEFA obviously overseeing the whole the whole league are important, but the actual decision about whether this event goes ahead or not was was taken locally and that is what we're trying to get to the heart of. Is this the right

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model of events, of such national significance, or should we have a different model? Select Committee Chair Dave Caroline Dinenage, thank you very Caroline Dinenage, thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. This really is a catalogue of disaster, and it raises a whole range of and it raises a whole range of issues, some of which the Select committee will be looking at when we kick off our inquiry into major events tomorrow. But actually referring back to the last Parliament, the committee looked at safety of sporting events and

16:47

Dame Caroline Dinenage MP (Gosport, Conservative)

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safety of sporting events and concluded that safety advisory groups have at best, a fairly dubious record on seeking out and considering the necessary perspectives to inform better decision making. So can I invite the Minister to have a look at our recommendations from then, a couple of years ago, to amend the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975, so that police and safety advisory groups have no choice but to engage properly from the outset on cases like this. And when we're considering the competence of the West Midlands chief Constable, can we start by asking him to respond to his correspondence, please? Because the Select committee wrote to him, in the event of this ban of Maccabi Tel Aviv fans and have still not had a response.

16:48

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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And Mr. Jones. >> I will certainly look back and read that and very much welcome it. And I think it speaks to some of the wider questions about whether we should have nationally significant events, whether we need to look at how the Sags operate. to look at how the Sags operate. I'm sorry that there hasn't been a response to the committee. Of course, I would encourage everybody to respond as quickly as possible in that in that case. But she's right to raise the kind of wider questions about how these gangs operate.

And I think that's absolutely what we need to get to the heart of Jo White.

16:48

Jo White MP (Bassetlaw, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is a quagmire that really needs much, much greater scrutiny needs much, much greater scrutiny and bringing out into the the, the, the disinfectant of daylight. And I want to repeat the question, why want to repeat the question, why have no safety advisory group minutes been produced? I would also like to ask how many times did they meet on this issue? But I'd also like to ask the Minister to ask whether there was a UEFA representative at the Safety Advisory Group meeting and what was their advice?

16:49

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Lillian Jones yeah, I don't I, I can't answer the hon. Lady's questions and how many we talked questions and how many we talked about this at the select committee, how many times the safety advisory group was meeting was slightly group was meeting was slightly unclear to us from a Home Office point of view, because our sort of relationship into the safety advisory group is through the UK Football Organisation. So we were we were asking for information and receiving information in a slightly ad hoc way, according to when we asked for that information.

And that's one of the things that I think we need to look at. And of course, I'm very happy to go back and ask the questions as as she is as well. On on who was there.

16:50

Rt Hon Steve Barclay MP (North East Cambridgeshire, Conservative)

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Thank you. Incredulous doing the policing Minister just in the last reply to perfectly reasonable questions on her own bench around questions on her own bench around the role of UEFA, the role of the safety group, she just said she's happy to go back and ask questions. happy to go back and ask questions. She said earlier in her statement that mistakes were alarming was the phrase she used. This has been going on for weeks now. She's come to the house, she's got a letter back from West Midlands Police that she hasn't shared with the house before coming to reply to this urgent question, she's saying we won't have all the answers until the end of March.

And yet the Prime Minister is saying this is a really high priority for him. Why is it taking so long to get simple answers on something that is of concern across this house? Yes.

16:51

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Well, I completely reject the framing that the right hon. framing that the right hon. Gentleman has just made. We were clear from the minute that this decision was made, the Prime Minister was clear that we believe this to be the wrong decision and this to be the wrong decision and that we worked tirelessly from that point to try and ensure that the match went ahead with the fans present. There was a weekend of a lot of activity trying to ensure that the we enabled the match to go ahead in a safe way with whatever resources were required to do that.

Lots of conversations across government and locally as well. Of course, then Maccabi Tel Aviv took the decision that they weren't going to bring their fans. And so that decision, sort of the need for that process ended. What we then did was to ask HMRC to look at this properly so that we can absolutely shine a light on what happened and what's gone wrong, and we have been very clear about that. It is completely right that that is not me making up my mind on the hoof, but doing this through a proper process.

I hope he would agree that that is a proper process, and we are also looking at whether we need to change the wider structures so we don't make an issue like this arise again.

16:52

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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Julian Lewis it's fairly clear. >> My hon. Friend for West Suffolk is right that this was a predetermined decision and the evidence was something for which evidence was something for which West Midlands Police scrabbled about later. But whatever the outcome of her inquiries, whether outcome of her inquiries, whether it turns out, heaven forbid, that there was an anti-Semitic element to this or, in my view, more probably that the police thought they'd have a quieter life if they went down this road. Will she guarantee to the house that whatever lessons are learned from this will be communicated in the strongest terms to the chief constables of all the other police

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forces, so that they don't follow a bad example? Mr.

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Mr. Yes. I can absolutely give him that assurance that whatever lessons we need to learn, we will whatever action we need to take, we will. And of course, that applies across all forces, not just not

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across all forces, not just not just the West Midlands. Thank you. Madam Deputy. Speaker. I'd like to ask the Minister if

16:53

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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>> I'd like to ask the Minister if she's aware of any representations at all that were made by UEFA in advance of this fixture. >> Mr.

16:53

So I wasn't party to conversations that took place between Villa, UEFA, no. And nor was I party to the decision making process within, within the whole of this. And that is one of the issues that we are looking at, the way that the safety advisory group's work is, there is no political involvement from government whatsoever. We aren't we don't feed into that process at all. That is into that process at all. That is one of the questions that we are looking at, because perhaps that isn't the wrong the right model for the future.

the future.

16:53

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Gavin Williamson Madam Deputy Speaker I think right across. feels that this was a poor decision and a bad decision, and that's why it's unravelled so quickly. Can the Minister reassure the House that there was absolutely no local political interference in terms of making this decision?

16:54

Rt Hon Sir Gavin Williamson MP (Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge, Conservative)

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Midlothian.

16:54

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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So I think that's the right hon. Member knows. I cannot tell him Member knows. I cannot tell him what the motivation was for any of the decisions that were made. I, through the safety advisory decision and through the Prime Minister's view that this was the wrong decision, have been really clear that we must make sure this doesn't happen again, the way that safety advisory groups are set up. They are local groups with local representatives and the police advise them on the safety of events.

And then there is a licence that is given for that event. That's how that structure works. Perhaps that needs to be looked at, particularly for issues of national significance, where perhaps there is a role for national politicians. Operational independence of the police is really important, and we have to make sure we don't ride roughshod over that. But that said, we also have to get to the bottom of what happened in this case.

16:55

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Final question Jim Shannon. I thank the Minister for her thoughtful answers. Last week, the Chief Constable, Craig Guildford, told the Home Affairs Committee and told the Home Affairs Committee and I quote, the decision wasn't taken lightly and the police have taken a careful approach when making the careful approach when making the decision. I once again want to raise concern about how this so-called careful approach made people feel and the message that is sent about exclusion. What assessment has the Minister made on the choice that was made and the steps that should have been taken to ensure all international football fans were treated fairly, based on correct evidence and indeed correct information.

Thank you.

16:55

Sarah Jones MP, The Minister of State, Home Department (Croydon West, Labour)

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Mr. Chairman. >> Mr. Chairman. >> And can I thank him for his question? I mean, we believe this was the wrong decision. We've been was the wrong decision. We've been very clear about that all the way through. And the message that it through. And the message that it sent to the wider world risked being a message that Jews weren't welcome in the West Midlands, which is one of the most awful things that could that that could be received by Jewish people around the world.

So we want to get to the bottom of why the decision was made, what we can do to make sure this

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doesn't happen again. That is the end of the Urgent Question before we start the next Question before we start the next one, I guess members will like a few moments to swap over few moments to swap over Frontbenches. The next urgent question is on latest developments question is on latest developments concerning Ajax and other army vehicles, and I call James Cartlidge.

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Yes. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, to ask the Secretary of State for defence if he will make a statement on the latest developments concerning Ajax and other Army vehicles.

16:56

Urgent question: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the latest developments concerning AJAX and other army vehicles.

The Minister Luke Pollard.

16:56

James Cartlidge MP (South Suffolk, Conservative)

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can I thank the hon. Member for tabling this question and for Mr Speaker to allow me to provide an update on the current situation. update on the current situation. Expanding on the written ministerial statement that I laid on this issue on the 26th of November, as safety is the top priority for the ministerial team prior to Ajax initial operating capability being announced, I asked

16:57

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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capability being announced, I asked for and was given assurances in writing by senior Ministry of Defence personnel that the system Defence personnel that the system was safe. However, on the 22nd of November, around 30 service personnel operating the Ajax family of vehicles reported noise and vibration symptoms during Exercise Titan Storm. The exercise was stopped immediately in line with our safety protocols, and those affected received full medical care and attention. These personnel continue to be monitored. None of the symptoms are life threatening and there have been no hospitalisations.

The safety of our service personnel remains a top priority for the Ministry of Defence. As such, an out of abundance of caution, I directed a pause on the use of Ajax for training and exercising. While safety investigations are carried out. There are three investigations currently underway an investigation by the Defence Accident Investigation Branch, an investigation by the Army Safety Investigation Team and the ministerial review that I have directed be carried out. In addition, while investigations remain ongoing, it would be inappropriate for me to comment on the potential outcomes or speculate on the causes of these symptoms.

However, I can confirm that officials have been meeting with General Dynamics Daily since the incident on Titan Storm, and I'm meeting with General Dynamics tomorrow to ensure a collaborative approach to this issue. The safety of our people remains the top priority for myself and the ministerial team. And as such, let me be clear we will take whatever decisions are required to end this saga one way or another, where people have concerns around Ajax. I would like to invite them and remind them that each organisation involved with Ajax has its own whistleblowing processes to ensure that any concerns are addressed appropriately and, importantly, confidentially more broadly on vehicle safety.

As the hon. Gentleman asked on the issue of the Mansfield fleet or Army trucks that I mentioned in my recent appearance in front of the House of Commons Defence Select Committee, I can confirm that an issue was identified with the vehicles, a mitigation and repair schedule created and that is being rolled out. That is an example of a system working properly in relation to Mansfield.

16:59

James Cartlidge MP (South Suffolk, Conservative)

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Fleet. can I thank you for granting this urgent question. Can I begin by stating how shocking it was to hear of the Army exercise, which took of the Army exercise, which took place on the 22nd of November that resulted in over 30 casualties among soldiers operating Ajax, with among soldiers operating Ajax, with reports of symptoms ranging from sickness to hearing loss. The priority here, as the Minister said, must be the safety of our personnel and we wish all of those affected a swift recovery.

But this is particularly disturbing for me. Madam Deputy Speaker, as these renewed incidents with noise and vibration sound strikingly similar to the problems that I was assured as Minister for Defence Procurement had been resolved, the Minister confirmed in the Defence Committee that he had received similar assurances when he agreed to announce Ajax had reached the key milestone of initial operating capability on November 6th. Speaker, the Minister and I may have our political differences, but on this can I suggest we have something in common? We have both been misled about the viability of the Ajax programme.

After all, it's not just the recurrence of extremely worrying noise and vibration vibration problems, but over the weekend we have seen reports of serious allegations from anonymous General Dynamics employees suggesting systemic flaws with the Ajax platform. This includes a disgraceful incident where a General Dynamics employee publicly belittled the injured soldiers. This is utterly unacceptable, correct? Now, given all of this, and contrary to assurances given to successive Ministers and accepted in good faith, and including by myself, surely the only possible conclusion is that the Ajax vehicle is fundamentally flawed.

Does the Minister agree that the manufacturer, General Dynamics, must have been aware of this for years and must be held to account as such? And remembering that the procurement reform I launched in February 2024 stressed the need for a second opinion. Can I ask if he will bring in a completely independent organisation or company steeped in engineering excellence from outside the MoD, with no skin in the game to pronounce on? The one question we all need answered is Ajax viable without a fundamental redesign? And if not, how much will it cost? How much more will it cost to remedy to finish? Madam Deputy Speaker, on a personal note, I imagine the Minister is as furious as I am at having been repeatedly given what now turn out to be false assurances responsible for the Ajax programme.

But surely he is now left with a binary choice fix it or fail it.

17:01

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Well done, Mr. Pollard. >> Well done, Mr. Pollard. >> Can I thank the hon. Gentleman for his questions and the tone in for his questions and the tone in which he made them? I too, was disgusted when I heard the news of the injuries to our service the injuries to our service personnel, especially after a point where the vehicle was assured to be safe. It is for that very reason that I am not going to speculate, and I hope he understands the reason why, until the results of these investigations have reported, so we can understand what is the cause of these noise and vibration injuries, and then a decision can be made based on that information.

I share his concern that I want to make sure that information given to Ministers, be it to me or any other Minister in this government or any other, is accurate and timely. So it's appropriate that that is gotten to the bottom of. I share his concern around the particular issue with one GD employee that he raises here, and I confirm that General Dynamics have written to the department to apologise for those recent social media posts from a member of their staff, and that was the right thing to do.

He also asked around independent review of the platforms themselves. So while we have the Defence Accident Investigation Branch and also the British Army's teams investigating it, I've asked for a external organisation with experience of noise and vibration to be able to be brought in. We're building together a team of experts of a number of organisations outside the usual GD production plane, to add expertise and external challenge to that work. Hopefully I'll be in a situation to add more to the house in my next update, which I hope to table a written ministerial statement ahead of the Christmas recess to keep the House informed about progress.

But I share his concern for our service personnel. It is not good enough for our service personnel to sustain injuries in this fashion on a platform that they were reassured were safe, just as I was. That's why getting to the bottom of this is a priority for me, and I await the reports of those three independent, those three investigations to understand what happened and therefore what

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decisions that we will take as a result of those things. Thank you very much, Madam

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Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. What an absolute shambles. And the Minister should be livid at And the Minister should be livid at how things have transpired with the billions of pounds of British taxpayer money spent over the years taxpayer money spent over the years on the Ajax programme, and now the injuries sustained by our brave service personnel. And now, in

17:04

Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi MP (Slough, Labour)

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service personnel. And now, in addition to problems with Ajax, the boxer mechanised infantry vehicle is years late into service and the 6000 or so man SSP support vehicles are currently grounded due to broken parts. So, Minister, is there a wider systemic problem with land vehicle procurement and sustainment? And where exactly does this leave us? With the British Army's readiness at a time of such increased international tensions? Yeah.

17:04

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Well, can I thank him for his question and also the questions question and also the questions that he asked me in front of his select committee last week, providing an opportunity for me to provide an update to his committee provide an update to his committee and the public on the investigations. When it comes to the Navy fleet, it is a system that is working properly in terms of is working properly in terms of there being problems identified with a vehicle that is nearly 20 years old.

When problems are identified, it is right that fix is identified and rectification is put in place. That is what is happening with the fleet, which should return to full capabilities early in the new year. Duty holders have the ability to operate those vehicles under strict parameters. In the meantime, to make sure that army tasks can continue to be carried out. But he will know that the defence procurement system that we inherited is in need of quite significant reform. We've started that process already, but there's more work to be done because we need to move to warfighting readiness for all our forces to be able to deter aggression and defeat it if necessary.

To do that, we have to get on top of these. What could be quite significant issues with the number of platforms? That is what we're intending to do.

17:05

James MacCleary MP (Lewes, Liberal Democrat)

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Liberal Democrat spokesperson James McCleary. comments of the Minister and the Shadow Minister regarding the service personnel injured in the recent training incident with the Ajax vehicles. Recent revelations Ajax vehicles. Recent revelations about the Ajax programme raise questions that go far beyond this single family of vehicles. They go to the heart of how the MoD manages major defence projects, our ability to meet our NATO obligations and the safety of the men and women who serve so bravely. Men to enter service in 2017.

The Ajax is now getting on for nine years behind schedule after more than 6 billion spent Ministers still cannot give a cast iron guarantee that Ajax is safe to operate. So can the Minister confirm whether the department has prepared any contingency plan? Should the Ajax ultimately be deemed unsafe or unviable, and if further delays or design overhauls are needed, what assessment has been made on the impact on our NATO commitments, particularly our contribution to the UK's armoured capability? Our allies will be watching closely, as will our enemies.

And finally, given that this programme has been allowed to drift for so many years, eye watering cost is the MoD considering an internal investigation into how these failings were able to progress this far without detection, and could that investigation, if it were to be undertaken, be expanded further to touch on the issues already raised by the chairman of the Select committee around the boxer tank, the Boeing E-7 reconnaissance plane and other MoD acquisition failures in recent years? Taxpayers deserve answers and value for money, and our armed forces deserve equipment they can trust.

17:07

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Yes. >> Yes. >> Can I thank him for his words around our service personnel? Every one of them should know that the one of them should know that the vehicles or equipment they've been asked to operate are safe to do so, and that is why it is important and that is why it is important that we get to the bottom of what has happened here, to wait those reports so we can provide confidence to our people that what we ask them to do, albeit with the level of risk that we know that they carry, that they know that they carry, can be done there.

In relation to the costs of the Ajax programme, it remains at £6.3 billion for the entire program. That price has not changed since 2014. To reassure the hon. Gentleman there, however, we will be able to make next steps once we understand what what is the cause of this? But the Defence Secretary has been very clear on this. We are bringing this saga to an end one way or another, and a decision will be made once it can be properly informed by the evidence of what has happened here.

Thomas.

17:08

Fred Thomas MP (Plymouth Moor View, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Chair, to scrap the Ajax programme, to to scrap the Ajax programme, to scrap it completely would be a very bold move considering that the UK has sunk, as we've just heard, over has sunk, as we've just heard, over £6 billion and it's nine years late. It's still getting soldiers ill every time that they get in it. And Ministers, current and former, as we've just been told, have been repeatedly briefed that it's good to go, it's not good to go, but to decide that it never will be would be very brave.

Does the Minister think that this Labour government, considering its being the first UK government to increase defence spending since the Cold War, a very ambitious defence reform agenda, and finally, confidence in the armed forces and the attitude of serving personnel morale going back up, certainly since way before I was in the military. Does the Minister think we've got enough confidence to take a bold decision like that?

17:09

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I thank him, my constituency neighbour, for his question? A taking bold decisions are the hallmark of this government because we inherited a situation where simply tinkering with some of the simply tinkering with some of the procurements that we inherited, or the necessity increase in our capabilities to meet the threats would not be enough. So the Defence Investment Plan, when it is published, will set out bold decisions, but in particular in relation to this, getting to the bottom of what has happened in this, in this incident on Titan, storm is really important because the Ajax vehicle has completed 42,000km of testing without those injuries taking place.

So we need to understand what has happened with those vehicles that have caused these injuries. Not all the vehicles on their exercise did cause injuries, which also needs to be taken into account as part of these investigations. And that's why I'm looking forward to those results when they come, so we can make a clear and bold decision one way or another to bring this saga to an end. Jopp.

17:09

Lincoln Jopp MP (Spelthorne, Conservative)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, the I think the Procurement Minister will know that his predecessor once answered a question from that despatch box question from that despatch box where I said that when we get the National Armaments Director, will they have carte blanche to tear up the book when it comes to defence procurement? And she answered me, not only will they have the ability to do it, but they will be held to account for so doing.

I very much could we? Obviously the Defence Committee do not want them coming in front of us in a year's time, saying we wanted to change things, but they wouldn't let us. So will you, now that he's in that role, give us his reassurance that that remains the policy that the national armaments director for their £600,000 a year will be given carte blanche to tear up the book when it comes to procurement.

17:10

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Minister Rupert Pearce already has. It is already making substantial changes in the way that substantial changes in the way that we procure and is delivering a programme of change, defence reform within DNOs and the wider National within DNOs and the wider National Armaments Director Group. That is absolutely essential if we are to achieve warfighting readiness. So not only does he have a very clear not only does he have a very clear policy steer in the Defence Industrial Strategy and the Strategic Defence Review, in only the few weeks that he has been in place, the substantial change that I'm witnessing, that I hope his committee will be able to hear from him shortly is really quite impressive, but there is a lot more to do if we are to get on top of a procurement system that is too slow, too expensive and doesn't yield the results for our people that they need to, there's a lot more work to do.

But he is making a very good start in that respect.

17:11

Ruth Jones MP (Newport West and Islwyn, Labour)

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Ruth Jones thank you, Madam >> Ruth Jones thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Minister for his comments this afternoon. I am aware that the problems with the Ajax system have problems with the Ajax system have existed for years, and the party opposite duck the issues when they were in government. Given the workers at the Oakdale site in my constituency are diligent and hard working and Christmas is fast approaching. What assurances can the Minister give me that defence jobs associated with this programme in Newport, western and across South Wales are safe for the long term?

17:11

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Well, can I thank her for her >> Well, can I thank her for her question? When I was in Merthyr, speaking to the members of the team, speaking to the members of the team, I recognise the importance of the economic contribution that General Dynamics makes, not just to Merthyr but to the wider community as well. It is really important that we look at what has happened, what lessons can be learned. But as a government, we're increasing defence spending and we are supporting businesses large and small across the country.

I'll be very happy meeting her and her South Wales colleagues to discuss this further, if that would be useful.

17:12

Sir Bernard Jenkin MP (Harwich and North Essex, Conservative)

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Bernard Jenkin. can I very much welcome the cross-party tone that the both front benches have have adopted in front benches have have adopted in these exchanges, because this problem reflects a systemic and very long term problem in MoD defence acquisition. And while there are glimmerings of light and some brilliant people in the department who want to do things differently, and the response to Ukraine shows that we can do things differently, but there is the need for a very big culture change in the mod in order to achieve this.

And will the Minister undertake to make sure that people involved in defence acquisition are sent on the courses where these lessons are properly learned and the change in behaviour and attitude actually takes place? Because if that radical organisational culture transformation is not implemented, no reform will work unless you throw out all the people and start again. And I suggest that's rather impractical. We've got to change the way these people think and operate in order to change the system, to avoid things like this happening again.

17:13

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Well, can I thank him? I think, you know, one of the hallmarks, I you know, one of the hallmarks, I think, of a good defence debate in this House, certainly since I was elected in 2017, is that across elected in 2017, is that across parties we have more in common. And a desire to get to the right solution is that. And actually, I'm solution is that. And actually, I'm pleased that in defence debates there's often less party politics because it is so important that we get to the right solution, not seek to blame or attack.

That doesn't mean there's not party politics takes place. But certainly on this issue, I think we are united in wanting to get to the right solution in respect to the culture change point that he mentions, I entirely agree it is not enough just to change process. I speak frequently in the mod about the necessity of having culture change, to adjust our approach, our processes, to learn the lessons from Ukraine to be faster and more agile. There's things that we can do, we are undertaking, but there's more to be done and respect of the senior responsible officer recommendations that in particular featured in the Sheldon review into previous problems with the Ajax they have been implemented, there have been big improvements in the leadership provided in single programmes by the SRO.

Reform by. I won't be able to speculate what happens here until we get the results of those investigations, but I'll update the house when that happens.

17:14

Gerald Jones MP (Merthyr Tydfil and Aberdare, Labour)

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Gerald Jones. I fully recognise the serious of seriousness of the situation and the need to fully investigate, which has to be the priority, and I fully agree with the Minister's comments about the need to keep our personnel safe. Ajax DNOs are assembled at my constituency of General Dynamics and located in Aberdare, where over 700 dedicated employees are working on the programme. I thank the Minister for visiting last month to mark the initial Operating capability ceremony by the British Army.

After many months and even years of robust testing, can I seek his reassurance that we will keep the employees at General Dynamics in his thoughts and offer as much reassurance as possible? And in addition, will he agree to meet with myself and the staff and trade unions at General Dynamics once the initial findings are known?

17:15

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I thank him for his question? It is important that as we look It is important that as we look into what has happened that everyone, including General Dynamics employees, have the Dynamics employees, have the opportunity to be able to share any concerns. That's why the appropriate whistleblowing structures exist within General Dynamics within the British Army, Defence Equipment and Support, and elsewhere in the supply chain. I will be very happy to meet with him and staff representatives, including the trade unions, who I met when I visited his constituency.

It is important when we look at this, not just that we look at the Ajax, but also the other vehicles that are maintained in his constituency as well, to make sure that we can learn the lessons appropriately based on evidence. And that's why I'm deliberately not jumping to any conclusions at this stage. I'm waiting for those reviews to come back, as I know many of those people in his constituency will be eager to see the results of them as well.

17:16

Ian Roome MP (North Devon, Liberal Democrat)

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Mr. member Ian Roome. >> Mr. member Ian Roome. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, the former First Sea Lord of the the former First Sea Lord of the Royal Navy, Lord West, also a former Labour security Minister, former Labour security Minister, has said in the Other place that the Ajax programme, no matter how much one dresses it up as being a complete and utter disaster. Does the Minister agree? No.

17:16

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Well, I always enjoy hearing from Lord West and his unique take from Lord West and his unique take on defence policies, but he does have considerable experience and so he uses his words wisely. I'm sure he uses his words wisely. I'm sure I'm not going to be jumping to any conclusions about what has happened in this particular instance on Titan Storm, until I have seen the results of those investigations, because I want to understand what has happened with those vehicles that caused injuries to our service personnel, and why other vehicles from the same family of vehicles produced around the same time did not cause injuries to other service personnel.

That is something that is being looked at as part of this review. And once we have that, I'll be reporting back to the House.

17:17

Carolyn Harris MP (Neath and Swansea East, Labour)

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Carolyn Harris. Thank you, Madam. >> Carolyn Harris. Thank you, Madam. >> Deputy Speaker. These concerns. >> Are. >> Indeed very worrying and no less so for those employed in this sector in South Wales. Will the Minister work with defence companies in Wales and with Welsh companies in Wales and with Welsh MPs to offer reassurances to the staff, and, more widely, to continue to ensure that Wales is at the forefront of retaining and growing job opportunities in the defence sector?

17:17

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Thank you for your question. She's right to talk about the staff and I think there is an important, particular, important role that they can play in helping us understand what has happened to these vehicles and and why that is these vehicles and and why that is the case. As a government, we are committed to the defence sector in Wales. Indeed, we're in discussions Wales. Indeed, we're in discussions with the Welsh Labour Government about a defence growth zone for Wales, taking a share of £250 million.

There are opportunities in South Wales, in particular using some of the floor plates and infrastructure around the General Dynamics site to do that, and I'm happy talking to her about it. More.

17:18

Ben Obese-Jecty MP (Huntingdon, Conservative)

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Ben Obese-Jecty speaker. armoured infantry, but I want to touch on the wider issue of Ajax as it relates to three UK div. If Ajax it relates to three UK div. If Ajax can't be fixed then potentially we will not have a formation capability and as it stands, we currently don't have one because the vehicle isn't deployable. If it can't be fixed later on, that will go on to be a longer term issue, particularly as we've. Scimitar is now out of service. Warrior goes out of service in 2027.

Bulldog goes out of service in 2030 with no replacement identified. The question I would have is around the Aries platform. It is fundamentally not an infantry fighting vehicle, and those who had assurances from the Minister before the armoured inf capability to three UK div. It is not a like for like replacement, so have a look at the current orbat for an armoured infantry battalion and how the Aries cannot replace warrior because currently a Non-stabilised 50 calibre machine gun does not replace a 30mm cannon.

This is something that urgently needs to be looked at, because currently the army seems to be chopping and changing its mind and doesn't seem to know what it wants from its armoured capability.

17:19

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Minister. >> Thank you. I think he does himself a disservice and he's saying he has a keen interest. He's by far the best parliamentary questioner of the Ministry of questioner of the Ministry of Defence, and that keen interest is felt upon my desk in 30 PQs every single day. So I appreciate his his very keen interest in the area. But he does raise a serious issue in in reshaping the Army's capabilities, which the Chief of General Staff is seeking to do to increase its lethality.

There is a necessity to replace old platforms with new, and to adjust the way that the Army fights. That is in particular using a greater combination of deeper fires, drones and other capabilities. There is a role, though, for armour and the different variations of of armour from light to heavy, and that will be what we will be buying, will be set out in the defence investment course.

17:20

Mr Luke Charters MP (York Outer, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Speaker. therefore, could I place on record our thanks as a house, hopefully to Army Medical. And therefore would my hon. Friend agree with me that my hon. Friend agree with me that when it comes to the forthcoming Defence Investment plan, Army Medical, of which two med Group is headquartered in my constituency, will stand to benefit from that defence investment plan and that we learn the lessons from this Ajax incident.

17:20

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Mr. group in particular. The Strategic Defence Review set out how we need to invest in our enablers, and that includes defence medical, making includes defence medical, making sure that in the as we move towards warfighting readiness, we maintain the ability to treat any of our personnel that may be injured or need medical attention. That work is ongoing, and he should expect to see investment in the defence investment plan.

17:21

Dave Doogan MP (Angus and Perthshire Glens, Scottish National Party)

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Duggan. It's not the minister's fault, but it is the minister's responsibility. This has gone from Labour to a coalition government to a Tory coalition government to a Tory government. It is now back to Labour and we still have a system Labour and we still have a system now that is nine years late, £6 billion and is just injured. A further 930 of our service personnel. Does the Minister think for one second that G-d being a US prime, the US would allow themselves to get messed around by a UK prime in the same way? And does he have any indication that he can share with the House about Defence's contingency planning, about what might happen if he does have to press the button to cancel this project? In terms of Cv90 or Rheinmetall likes?

17:21

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I thank him for his question? He's right that we need to end this saga. It has gone on for too long and I. I'm not happy with any of our equipment being used by our our equipment being used by our service personnel. It is not if it is not safe. Since I've become a Minister, I've taken a number of decisions to pause the use of certain equipment because I had safety concerns with it. I did so again with Ajax here because the priority, the safety of our people is a priority for me.

It's something I feel strongly as a representative of a military city and coming from a military family. But it's too early at this stage until I see the reports to look at what may happen next. But I can reassure him that when we get to house.

17:22

Alex Ballinger MP (Halesowen, Labour)

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Alex Ballinger. vehicle was ordered in 2014, due to be delivered in 2017. It's now been delivered eight years late in a state of service that is completely unusable by our personnel. This is a catastrophic failure by MoD procurement. As we're increasing the amount of spending we're doing the amount of spending we're doing as we respond to the war in Ukraine. How is the Minister ensuring that MoD procurement is fit for service? And we don't have another disaster like we have here?

17:23

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Yes. I thank him for his >> Yes. I thank him for his question. It is important that we look at what particularly happened with Ajax and the Ajax family of vehicles in this case, to to look at what lessons we need to learn and what decisions we need to take as a result. However, the wider as a result. However, the wider point he raises about defence reform is a valid one. Defence procurement takes too long. That was a system that we inherited from in 2014, 2024.

It's too expensive and it doesn't allow for spiral development in the way it needs to. The procurement of Ajax was a novel form, where the platform was procured and brought into service, and iterations then retrofitted onto each platform. That is an area that I am looking at to see whether that model, that type of procurement is, is right for the platforms that we're looking to buy.

17:23

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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Julian Lewis. >> It's hard to think of a comparable disaster without going back to perhaps the early 1960s and back to perhaps the early 1960s and the cancellation successively of Blue Streak and Skybolt. I really Blue Streak and Skybolt. I really worry that if and when the decision has to be taken, that this platform is not fit to be issued to our armed forces, there is going to be a huge legal stand off between the MoD and the company as to who is responsible for picking up the bill has thought been given to sharpening the pencils of the MoD.

Lawyers are.

17:24

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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He's inviting me to speculate on >> He's inviting me to speculate on what could be a decision that would be taken after this report comes back. The Defence Secretary and I back. The Defence Secretary and I are very clear that all options remain on the table in respect of this. We are looking at what are this. We are looking at what are the causes of this and what lessons can be learned based on those three reviews that I outlined to the House earlier.

And I hope the contribution of people that work in the sector that may currently be sharing with members of the media, I would welcome them sharing their their insights and their experiences with the ministerial review so we can look at those, take on board their concerns and make sure that when a decision is made once this review, once these reviews have reported, it is the right decision for our armed forces, but perhaps most importantly, for the safety of our service personnel.

17:25

Johanna Baxter MP (Paisley and Renfrewshire South, Labour)

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Johanna Baxter Madam Deputy >> Johanna Baxter Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank the Minister for his response to the question and also his unshakeable commitment to also his unshakeable commitment to putting service personnel safety first. I wonder if the Minister could confirm when the Ajax could confirm when the Ajax programme was last paused prior to this incident.

17:25

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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The Ajax programme was paused under the last government when there were a problems with Ajax there were a problems with Ajax identified in relation to noise and vibration. It was right that I think the last government took the think the last government took the decision to pause to understand what had happened, and then they commissioned work to understand what had gone wrong and therefore what mitigations were required. It is on the basis of of a lot of that work that I was given an assurance that the platform was safe, given the injuries sustained to our service personnel.

We are looking at, at what has been provided to us, the accuracy and the timeliness of that, but also to understand what has happened in relation to this incident here. And I'll be able to say more in due course when the reports when the review reports.

17:26

Cameron Thomas MP (Tewkesbury, Liberal Democrat)

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Cameron Thomas. >> Thank you, Madam Speaker. In the last government, the conservative side and contract for £1.5 billion side and contract for £1.5 billion with Boeing to order five E-7 wedgetail aircraft. The order reportedly circumvented the MoD's reportedly circumvented the MoD's established procurement system and the RAF is still without an operational platform. The Ajax scandal has dragged on even longer, and last week a General Dynamics manager used social media to ridicule Army leadership and those personnel who had suffered from excessive noise and vibration whilst using the Ajax platform.

If this £6.3 billion investment collapses, what is the government's contingency? And regardless, will the government launch an inquiry into both platforms? Thank you.

17:27

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I thank him for his questions in relation to Wedgetail? questions in relation to Wedgetail? There was a very good debate in Westminster Hall only a few months ago around wedgetail, where a ago around wedgetail, where a number of the issues in relation to the Wedgetail procurement were set out, and also its first flight in test flight happened very shortly after that as well. However, in relation to Ajax in particular here, it's right that we look at what has happened to have an evidence based approach with that systematically looks at the experience of those vehicles that were both causing injuries potentially, but also those that did not.

So we can understand what has happened here, and therefore we'll make a decision on the back of that about how to proceed. I think that is the right approach here, to take it calmly and coolly, but professionally. I want those engineering reports to be the priority, and I want those engineering reports to have the time they need to produce a thorough set of recommendations about what has happened and what needs to happen next.

17:27

Alan Strickland MP (Newton Aycliffe and Spennymoor, Labour)

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Alan Strickland thank you. >> Alan Strickland thank you. >> Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Minister for the action he's taken on Ajax. As hon. Members he's taken on Ajax. As hon. Members have said, this speaks not only to issues in this program, but long running issues in defence procurement, which I know from procurement, which I know from businesses in my constituency is too often too slow, too expensive and fails to deliver the effective kit our men and women in uniform deserve.

So once the investigations are concluded, as mentioned by the Minister, can he set out to the House how the lessons will be taken forward into the implementation of the Defence Industrial Strategy and other action to make sure that, moving forward, our courageous service people get the right kit, at the right price, at the right time.

17:28

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I thank him for his question? >> Can I thank him for his question? Can I also give him the reassurance that we're not waiting just for the output of these reviews to be making substantial reforms to our procurement system? We know it is too slow, we know it is too too slow, we know it is too expensive, and as a result, with the Defence Industrial Strategy that we published a few months ago, we set out our ambition to cut our contracting timelines, to have more iterative development, to invest more in skills and to deliver more of that increasing defence Budget to British companies.

We will, of course, look at what the reviews say and if decisions are required, let me reassure the House that Secretary of State and I will be making them Rebecca Smith.

17:29

Rebecca Smith MP (South West Devon, Conservative)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, given the issues around Ajax and the operational gap which this the operational gap which this leaves the army, is the Minister confident that there will be no issues with boxer or the project Hunter alternative individual Hunter alternative individual weapon systems which could come out of the woodwork with regards to capability and usability. I met with a local defence business on Friday who shared some concerns that they have with me. Minister.

17:29

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I thank my constituency Labour for that? If there's a local defence business in her constituency, it's not far from constituency, it's not far from mine. In that case, I'll be very happy speaking to her in relation to those. Certainly we are looking at what has happened, first of all, at what has happened, first of all, and then making a decision based on the evidence. I think that is the right approach here, but I'm very happy looking at this. But boxer is a good platform that hasn't had the issues that Ajax has.

I've seen boxer under construction in Stockport and in Telford, and I've seen the dedicated workforce that are delivering that and the potential potentially for more to happen there.

17:30

Rt Hon Steve Barclay MP (North East Cambridgeshire, Conservative)

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Steve Barclay Madam Deputy Speaker whilst the problems with Speaker whilst the problems with this programme are familiar, what we've heard today is quite extraordinary because both the Minister and the Shadow Minister Minister and the Shadow Minister have said from the Dispatch Box that they have been misled by their officials and that in turn, Madam Deputy Speaker raises questions for this House, because we should be able to rely on what is said by Ministers in good faith from the Dispatch Box. So has the Minister discussed this with the Cabinet Secretary? I agree with the chair of the Defence Select Committee.

I think across the House we don't think these problems only apply to this programme. They're more systemic. But what he has said and what the shadow defence secretary has said is extremely important to how this House operates and whether individuals are held to account. So what action will he take with the Cabinet Secretary to address that?

17:31

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. I didn't use the same words as the Shadow Defence Secretary has deliberately, because Secretary has deliberately, because I haven't seen the evidence of what has happened in this case. Here. I'm reserving judgement about the I'm reserving judgement about the advice given to me, but I am asking for a review into the accuracy and timeliness of that to ensure that that information given to me is the right one. However, I am aware of the Sheldon review that highlighted concerns in the past.

I've spoken to the right hon. Gentleman opposite, and I seek to speak to further members across the House and indeed, former members that have had experience in this respect, because it is absolutely vital that we can have confidence in the equipment that we're asking our men and women in our armed forces to use and to make a decision on the use of that equipment. We need to have absolute certainty that it is safe to do so. That is the decisions that I'll be taking with the Secretary of State once we've seen the reports of these ones here.

But I'm very happy to have further conversations on a cross-party basis to understand the concerns, to make sure that our defence procurement system is, is accurate, timely and importantly, keeps our people safe.

17:32

Chris Coghlan MP (Dorking and Horley, Liberal Democrat)

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Chris Coghlan defence innovation is vital both for adapting our is vital both for adapting our armed forces to the drone age and the war in Ukraine, but also rightly for the government's rightly for the government's economic strategy. What confidence can the country have in the MoD's ability to deliver? Given the debacle with Ajax?

17:32

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Every single day, brilliant people in defence companies, large and small, deliver incredible capabilities for the UK armed forces and indeed, in many cases using faster procurement and and new permissions for our friends in Ukraine as well. So there are Ukraine as well. So there are lessons that we are learning from the experience of UK support for our friends in Ukraine, speeding up the delivery of systems, but also looking at how we can reduce the contracting time and also enable platforms that can be developed faster than the ones that we have today.

So there are lessons to be learned. The Defence Industrial Strategy sets out a number of those, but we will be looking carefully at the reviews here to see what lessons can be applied to the Ajax platform, but also if any wider lessons need to be learned as well, if they will. If they are wider lessons that do need to be learned, they will be and will be taking them on seriously.

17:33

John Cooper MP (Dumfries and Galloway, Conservative)

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John Cooper thank you, Madam. >> Civilians talk tactics and veterans talk logistics. So while the man trucks might not be as sexy as Ajax, their loss, however as Ajax, their loss, however temporary, will be keenly felt. Can the Minister outline what practical steps are being taken to ensure steps are being taken to ensure that the wheels, so to speak, are not coming off any other mission critical equipment? Preston.

17:33

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I thank him for his question? He's absolutely right of the importance of logistics. And I'm importance of logistics. And I'm reminded without Colonel James Sunderland, who previously sat on the conservative benches, who was a logistics colonel, that we are slightly light on that expertise in the House, perhaps at the moment, but I think it is important that we look at a system working properly, and that is when faults are identified with the vehicle that the correct mitigations were put in place and they're being rolled out.

And I think I would make a clear distinction between where we understand what has happened, what mitigations are required and how we will roll those out, which is should be a system working properly compared to the what's happening with Ajax, where we are not yet certain what has happened, but we have a number of investigations that will hopefully provide us with the clarity and the answers that we require soon.

17:34

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Jim Shannon can I thank the Minister very much for his answers, Minister very much for his answers, and also for his clear commitment to do better and to solve the problems? We appreciate that in problems? We appreciate that in this House is honesty. It is understood that some 6000 vehicles, some of which have been in service for two decades, are being fitted with replacement parts in. Some were fitted incorrectly. These vehicles are used to get food, fuel and supplies to the troops.

What steps will the Minister take to look at other army vehicles? To ensure that there are no improper parts in them, so this doesn't create a knock on effect on getting essential supplies to those troops who are in the battle zone.

17:35

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I thank him for his question? >> Can I thank him for his question? The Army has a number of vehicles that, as we've heard from the discussion already in this Urgent discussion already in this Urgent Question have been in service for a very long period of time in refreshing our capabilities. It's refreshing our capabilities. It's not just the Ajax platform that we're as a nation seeking to update, it's the Land Rovers and it's a whole host of other platforms as well.

We're seeking to do so to provide the men and women in our forces with the equipment that they need to increase our warfighting readiness. As part of that, we need to have systems that sit behind them that procure faster and better than we've seen in the past, that provide more value for the taxpayer, even though we are spending more on defence than ever before, because I want to see increased value for the taxpayer, but also making sure that we deliver a safe working environment for all our service personnel, because when we ask them to do extraordinary things, I want to have the confidence that the equipment and the vehicles I'm asking them to do those things in

**** Possible New Speaker ****

are as safe as they possibly can be. The Minister for his responses

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The Minister for his responses this afternoon, and I will allow a few moments for the frontbench to few moments for the frontbench to few moments for the frontbench to swap over. Brings us to a statement on the Child Poverty Strategy. Strategy. Secretary of State Bridget Phillipson.

17:36

Ministerial statement: Child Poverty Strategy

Are here. permission, I will make a statement on the government's child poverty strategy. Tackling child poverty is a proud Labour tradition. It goes

17:36

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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to the heart of the values that we have and the beliefs we share. Above all, the barrier must be no Above all, the barrier must be no back, must background, must be no barrier to success. That opportunity is for every child, and opportunity is for every child, and that the freedoms which for too long few of our children enjoyed must today be extended to them all. This government sees child poverty not simply as the absence of material goods from the lives of material goods from the lives of our young people, but it adds the absence of their agency, of their freedom in the decisions which shape their worlds.

And as members on this side of the House know well, it is not merely wealth and opportunity, but power which must be in the hands of the many, not the few. That clear political principle lay behind not merely the determination, but the success of the last Labour government in lifting 600,000 children out of poverty between 1997 and 2010. But after Gordon Brown left office, that progress was reversed by a combination of deliberate cuts to public services, economic stagnation and a deep cost of living crisis, there are now 4.5 million children in poverty, 900,000 more than in 2010.

This means in a typical classroom of 30 children, there will be around ten who are experiencing poverty and 2 million children are in deep material poverty, lacking even the basic essentials such as a warm home, healthy food which no child should grow up without. And we know that growing up in poverty has enormous consequences for children's health, for their education, and, more broadly, for their life chances. And it is equally damaging for our country, not merely for our public services, social cohesion, our chances of economic growth, but for the sort of society that we wish to build and the sort of future we can promise our people.

That's why we made a manifesto commitment to develop an ambitious child poverty strategy. And shortly after the election, the Prime Minister announced a child poverty task force to deliver this, which I have been proud to co-chair. This has been a cross-government task force recognising that the causes of child poverty are wide ranging and deep rooted. The task force has visited towns and cities across the UK, talked to over 180 stakeholders including charities, academics and think tanks and most importantly, listen directly to the experiences of children and families living in poverty, putting them at the heart of our work.

And I am proud that the reduction in the number of children living in poverty because of this strategy will be the biggest than any reduction in child poverty recorded by any government in a single parliament. Ever. Our strategy sets out the action that we are taking and will take to help families by boosting incomes, saving money on essentials and strengthening local support. This will build on the urgent action we have already taken since entering government to tackle both the root causes and the symptoms of child poverty, including the best start for every child through our Best Start Family hubs that will deliver the early intervention support that new parents need to set up their children for future success in life.

Along with our extension of the holiday activities and Food Programme, our expansion of free school meals, announced in July, will lift 100 and thousand children out of poverty by the end of this parliament, reaching half a million families who receive Universal Credit. And our new Crisis and Resilience Fund, worth 842 million a year, will reform crisis support by enabling local authorities to provide immediate support to those on low incomes who encounter a financial shock. And these commitments come on top of the wider change our government is bringing to the lives of families in our country, including expanding free breakfast clubs, boosting the national minimum wage for those on the lowest incomes, and supporting 700,000 of the poorest families through our new fair repayment rate on Universal Credit deductions.

But Madam Deputy Speaker, we had to go further on this side of the House. We believe that the Social Security system should be at once a springboard for opportunity and a safety net. When times are tough, any of us can fall on hard times. Any of us can become unwell, fall out of work or lose a loved one. The security for working people of knowing that when things go wrong, the state will be there for you and your family. It is one of the greatest achievements of the labour movement, not just here in Britain, but around the world, and that belief that motivates that struggle against insecurity applies above all to our children.

Our system of support for families should never penalise children for the actions, not even necessarily the choices of their parents. That third child in the family has just the same value and worth as the second and the first. What we believe is the right support for the first in the family is right for her sisters and brothers unto this last. None of us, none of our children, should lose out simply for the number of our siblings. And failing to act on child poverty will cost Britain far more than investing.

Now, every pound we spend lifting children out of poverty saves much more in future health, education and welfare costs and builds a stronger economy. We cannot afford to sit on our hands and pick up the greater costs of failure further down the line, because poorer children are more likely to have serious mental health difficulties, they're more likely to have poorer employment outcomes and to earn less. And by age five, children eligible for free school meals are already five months behind. By age 16, that gap has widened to over 19 months, and no one has felt these consequences more than the children themselves.

And that is why we announced that we will remove the two child limit in Universal Credit from April 2026. Reinstating support for every child will alone lift 450,000 children out of poverty by the end of this Parliament, and end the cruel policy that is currently affecting 1.6 million children. And it is estimated that in 20 1930 there will be 550,000 fewer children in relative poverty as a result of the whole set of measures set out in our child poverty strategy.

Madam Deputy Speaker, with the decisive action this government is taking today, we are investing in the future of our children and investing in the future of our country. And it is sometimes put to Ministers, not least by members on the other side of this House, that removing the two child limit rewards parents for staying out of work. We reject that because the evidence rejects that almost 60% of households affected by the two child limit are in work. Almost 50% of the households affected were not claiming Universal Credit when any of their children were born.

Parents are doing what they can to keep a roof over their children's heads. Parental employment rates are already high, but with almost three quarters of children in poverty being in a working family, too many parents find themselves in jobs where they still struggle to support their families, while those not in work face extra barriers to entering the labour market at all. And one of the biggest barriers is childcare. That is why we've expanded 30 hours of funded childcare for working parents, saving eligible families using all 30 hours up to 7500 pounds per eligible child per year, extending eligibility for Universal Credit upfront childcare costs to parents returning from parental leave to ease that difficult transition back to work, and providing universal Credit childcare support to help with childcare costs for all children.

Instead of limiting this to two children to help parents who have larger families too. And we know that there is much more to do, which is why we are committing to a Department for education led, cross-government review of access to early education and childcare support to deliver a simpler system, better for children and for parents alike. Too many children are spending years in temporary accommodation at a point in their lives when they need the space to play and develop nutritious food to thrive, and to access education.

We will also put in place specific interventions to mitigate the harm living in temporary accommodation can inflict on children's health, development and educational outcomes. This includes a commitment to ending the practice of discharging newborn babies into B&Bs or other unsuitable shared accommodation together. All of this represents a strong start, but we do not underestimate the scale of the challenge to build a society where every child grows up in a family filled with love, grows up safe, warm and well fed, not held back by poverty, but helped forward by government.

We will monitor our progress using two main metrics. Firstly, we will use the internationally recognised and well-established relative low income after housing cost metric to monitor overall child poverty and secondly, a new measure of deep material poverty, which we have developed to assess families ability to afford everyday essentials. This takes account of more than just income, such as the cost of essentials, their overall financial situation and the support that they receive locally. Because it is not only the number of children in poverty that matters, but the depth of that poverty too.

We will continue to have a dedicated team in government that works with the wider public, private sector and civil society to keep focus on tackling this stain of child poverty. With oversight from Ministers across government. Madam Deputy Speaker, For over a century, Labour governments have worked to deliver opportunity and security. This strategy will build on those proud foundations, delivering on our opportunity mission. To break the link between background and success. We will continue to work nationally and locally and across all four nations of the UK, and we will continue to be ambitious to match the ambition of our children.

Building a Britain where no child goes hungry, where every child has opportunities and where every family has power and choices in life. And I commend this statement to the House.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Shadow Secretary of State, Helen Whately. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will start with Speaker, I will start with something we can all agree on. None of us want to see children grow up of us want to see children grow up in poverty. All of us. All of us in poverty. All of us. All of us know something of what that looks like. Some hon. Members have lived like. Some hon. Members have lived it themselves. For others, it is part of the bread and butter of constituency work.

Even in the

17:47

Helen Whately MP (Faversham and Mid Kent, Conservative)

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wealthiest constituencies, there are pockets of poverty, children spending months living in bed and breakfast, their meals coming from breakfast, their meals coming from the local food bank, not knowing when they'll have a bed in a room they can call their own, worrying they can call their own, worrying about their mum when it is usually their mum, and how she will pay the bills. None of this helps a kid succeed in life. So of course this government, as we did before them, government, as we did before them, should be working on how to improve the lives of children.

But nothing I have heard from the Secretary of State today gives me any confidence, however well intentioned, that they are going to fix the problem. Last week, the Prime Minister grabbed the headline by saying they will change how supermarkets display baby formula and give you loyalty points. Hardly the groundbreaking fix for child poverty that we have been promised at the Budget. They crowed about how they will lift so many children out of relative poverty by lifting the two child cap. That will, of course, help with the stats on that one metric.

Just like the free taxpayer funded breakfasts. But ditching the two child benefit cap will raise taxes on working people, including those on the poverty line, and disincentivize work for a measure which the Prime Minister now speaks about with such pride. I'm surprised it took the government 18 months to do it. In that time, the Prime Minister and Chancellor rejected many demands from their backbenchers to lift the cap, arguing the policy was unaffordable. In fact, he was so committed to the cap he removed the whip from those brave Labour rebels who voted to lift it.

But then, as rivals for Labour leadership circled, the cap, indeed went chopping. And changing policy based on political pressure is no way to govern, and it's certainly no way to solve child poverty. Madam Deputy Speaker, there is a way to boost the prospects of the country's children plentiful, well-paid jobs. That way, people can provide for themselves and their families, pay their rent or their mortgage, do their weekly food shop and afford school uniforms for their kids. The centre for Social Justice found that children in workless households are four times more likely to be materially deprived, but under this government, the number of children growing up in workless households has seen the fastest increase on record, coming to 1.5 million.

Contrast that to our record, which saw the numbers of children in workless households. You can laugh, but you. But honestly, you should listen to this. That makes a difference to children's lives. Contrast that to when we had numbers of children in workless households decreasing year on year from 2014. Now, with unemployment going up month on month, sadly, the number of children in workless households is likely to keep on going up. Then there is something even more fundamental, Madam Deputy Speaker, that helps to stave off poverty.

And that is the family. 44% of children in lone parent households live in poverty, compared to 25% in households with a couple strong working families raised children who are less likely to be in poverty. It's as simple as that. Yet their poverty strategy ignores this fact entirely. In fact, rather than tackle the root causes of poverty, the strategy concerns itself with vouchers for formula milk. How many children will be brought out of poverty thanks to those vouchers? And why is there nothing in the strategy on parenting skills, which we know are key determinants of child outcomes? Why do they insist on using the misleading metric of relative poverty instead of measures that reflect real living standards? On the other hand, with their Budget slapping thousands of pounds of extra taxes on hard working and hard up families, how many families are actually going to be plunged into poverty because of their tax rises? How many more households will now be eligible for Universal Credit if they truly believe that lifting the two child cap is so essential to reducing poverty, why did it take the Prime Minister 18 months to do it? And why did he remove the whip from his own MPs who voted for it? Will the Secretary of State tell us the real reason? Was it actually about saving his own skin? Madam Deputy Speaker, I know they are well meaning, but this is all wrong.

Tackling poverty is about decent jobs, lower taxes and a stable foundation for every child. Throwing money at the problem to improve the statistics isn't the answer. And you certainly don't lift children out of poverty by making the whole country poorer. The policies in the strategy and the Budget risk trapping families in long term dependency instead of lifting them out. This strategy is so far from the bold action that Labour are making it out to be, and that this country needs to break the cycle of worklessness for families on benefits, to give children the best start in life and to give taxpayers a fair deal, fair to those who pay in, as well as those who help.

The fact is.

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The shadow. Secretary of State has taken even longer than the Secretary of

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State did, is well over her time limit. Secretary. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The opposition spokesperson started by saying that none of us want children to grow up in poverty. No, children to grow up in poverty. No, madam Deputy Speaker, we as a party in government will lift children

17:53

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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in government will lift children out of poverty. They pushed nearly a million children into poverty. That is the difference between our parties. And they knew when they introduced the two child limit that it was a political dividing line, seeking to make an artificial divide between those families and work and those families not in work, when, as all of the evidence shows us, the children who have suffered and the families who have suffered are working families, that is what the evidence shows.

And that is why we have acted and in and in suggesting, as they have done in many, many days over in the media and beyond that they will bring back the two child limit. She is committed to pushing 450,000 children back into poverty, committed to reintroducing the repulsive and dehumanising rape clause that saw women forced to talk about sexual violence in order to have enough money to support their children. They should be deeply, deeply ashamed of such a punishing and dehumanising regime that saw women and children suffer.

And we will never stand for it. And we will not allow for children to be punished because of the circumstances of their birth. Their record is a shameful and an abhorrent one. We will heal the scar that the Conservatives inflicted on children across our country, and we will heal it once and for all. Because, Madam Deputy Speaker, we are also a party that believes in the power of education to spread opportunity. Speak to any teacher across the country and they will tell you that poverty limits learning and it limits the life chances of our children.

And in ending the two child limit, we are investing in education, investing in raising standards, and investing in giving children a better start right across our country. But this is not the limit of our ambition, because we know there is much more to do. But we have so far achieved an enormous amount acting to raise the minimum wage for the lowest earners, bringing back surestart for a new generation through our Best Start family hubs with more support for parents, opening new breakfast clubs, expanding government funded childcare, new school based nurseries to give parents work choices and children's life chances.

The cost on children can last a lifetime, but the cost to society can echo for generations in worklessness, in poorer health, in lost prosperity to our country. That is why this Labour government will not stand by as working families struggle, not just for the sake of parents and children, but for all of us. We promise to tackle child poverty, and we are doing it so that every child in our country has the best start in life. The price of doing nothing, Madam Deputy Speaker, is too high for children, for families and for our country.

17:56

Helen Hayes MP (Dulwich and West Norwood, Labour)

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Chair of the Select Committee, >> Chair of the Select Committee, Helen Hayes. Madam Deputy. >> Speaker. >> Can I warmly. >> Welcome the publication of the Child Poverty Strategy, which builds on the steps the government has already taken, expanding access to free school meals and to free school meals and introducing free breakfast clubs. I particularly welcome the removal of the two child benefit cap. All of the evidence is clear that this has been one of the biggest contributors to the shameful increase in child poverty that we have seen in recent years.

My committee, along with the Work and Pensions Select Committee, will undertake detailed scrutiny of the strategy and we will play our part in ensuring that its implementation is as effective as it can be. Can I welcome the focus on temporary accommodation where children sleep, and the safety and security of their home environment has a huge impact on their life chances, but can I note that the measures in the strategy so far are limited to pilots? This work is badly needed across the country, so can I ask the Secretary, the Secretary of State? When does she expect to be able to roll out the work to eliminate the use of bed and breakfast accommodation for families everywhere, so that no child's life needs to be scarred by accommodation?

17:57

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Well done. Committee. She is absolutely right that temporary accommodation is limited, is linked to worse outcomes for children, has deep outcomes for children, has deep consequences for those who are forced to endure living in B&Bs and other unsuitable accommodation. We are working with the 20 local authorities with the highest use of B&Bs, backed up by investment, to bring those numbers down. That also runs alongside the £39 billion of investment we are putting into social and affordable housing. And of course, we'll have our homelessness strategy coming forward in due course.

That will set out further steps the government will be taking, but I do look forward to discussing this further with her committee next time and before them.

17:58

Munira Wilson MP (Twickenham, Liberal Democrat)

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Liberal Democrat spokesperson Munira Wilson. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. Every child, Madam Deputy Speaker. Every child, no matter their background, deserves the opportunity to flourish and fulfil their potential. flourish and fulfil their potential. Liberal Democrats welcome any and all efforts to reduce the number of children in poverty, because we believe investing in our children and young people is one of the most important investments a government can make. And that's why we welcomed the Chancellor's announcement at the Budget to lift the cap on universal Credit for families with more than two children, a cruel policy put in place by George Osborne and the Conservatives when they were left to their own devices in government.

However, what has been announced today is a smorgasbord of existing proposals, which is very light on any new measures that we urgently need to tackle the scourge of child poverty. Even the government's own numbers suggest that this strategy will leave nearly 4 million children stuck in poverty. The government needs to go further, and she and the Secretary of State could start by properly funding the very welcome expansion in free school meals and, crucially, automatically enrolling children on the scheme so that no child slips through the cracks and misses out on a hot, healthy meal.

The education secretary could also set a cap on the cost of branded school uniform, so that hard pressed parents don't have to suffer over inflated prices as a result of her short sighted policy to cap the number of branded uniform items. But Madam Deputy Speaker, we know that one of the biggest determinants of outcomes is housing. Like many other London MPs, I regularly see families in my surgery suffering the devastating consequences of being shoved into temporary accommodation many miles away from their schools and wider family.

If the government is serious about ending the use of B&B accommodation, they must focus on building social housing. We need to build 150,000 social homes every year, in order that local people can genuinely afford to live in their area, with local services to meet their needs. And finally, the Secretary of State rightfully pointed out that long term costs of material poverty. The same can be true of those children suffering a poverty of love and care. That's why her failure to reverse the cuts she imposed earlier this year to the Adoption and Special Guardianship Support Fund by finding just £25 million.

A drop in the ocean of government spending is so egregious and short sighted. Why won't she think again? Children can access the therapy they desperately need to have a second chance in life.

18:00

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Madam Deputy Speaker, this is an ambitious strategy that will lift ambitious strategy that will lift the that will see the largest ever reduction in the number of children growing up in poverty in a single growing up in poverty in a single parliament since records began. No one can accuse us of lacking ambition when it comes to driving down those numbers. And whilst I note the hon. Lady's reference to the introduction of the two child limit, I would just observe that it was after 2010 with the coalition government that we saw, for example, the mass closure programme of Surestart centres right across our country.

Even though the evidence was clear about the outcomes they delivered and the difference that they made to families, and that is why I am proud that this Labour government is bringing back Surestart for a new for a new generation with BESS start family hubs to make sure all families and children get the support that they need. Running alongside that, as I set out, we are investing £39 billion in social and affordable housing, the single biggest in a generation. Uplift in support to build the social and affordable homes that people in London and across our country desperately need.

And that runs alongside all of the measures in the Employment Rights Bill, the changes around Universal Credit, the expansion of free school meals that she references, where we are putting an extra billion pounds into supporting families. This Labour government is investing in children investing in their futures to deliver the brighter future that all of our children deserve. Janet Daby.

18:02

Janet Daby MP (Lewisham East, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Official figures show that over 4000 children are living in poverty in my constituency of Lewisham East, in my constituency of Lewisham East, and many of those families have one parent in work. And I warmly parent in work. And I warmly welcome the sexiest of state's child poverty strategy and all the work that has taken place, along with her and her colleagues, as well as the lifting of the two child limit. But would my right hon. Friend agree with me that what we now need to see is children and families not needing to use food banks?

18:02

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I must begin by paying tribute to I must begin by paying tribute to my hon. Friend, for all of the work that she did in the Department for education and continues to do to education and continues to do to champion the life chances of children in her community and across our country. She did a lot across our country. She did a lot to contribute to much of the work that has gone into the strategy, and I'm grateful to her. I agree with her that I want to live in a country where families have enough money to go to the shops to buy the food that they want for their children, and to make decisions that are right for them.

In paying tribute to the amazing volunteers in our community organisations and churches who volunteer and give their time freely to run foodbanks, I hope that in the years to come, we can shut down those foodbanks and make sure that all families have got a good level of income and don't have to depend on the goodwill of strangers in order to get by.

18:03

Dame Harriett Baldwin MP (West Worcestershire, Conservative)

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Dame Harriett Baldwin. >> Dame Harriett Baldwin. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Last year, the Secretary of State, her front bench colleagues, pretty her front bench colleagues, pretty much everyone behind her voted against lifting the two child against lifting the two child benefit cap. Those who rebelled had

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the whip withdrawn. And what? What would she.

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What would she. Say to those rebels now? And what has changed since that vote

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last year? Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker. I have long campaigned on child poverty, long campaigned on child poverty, and I have led this task force together with my hon. Friend. Right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State

18:04

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and my right hon. Friend the now Secretary of State for DSIT. We were always clear that we would look at all of the evidence at the most effective ways that we could lift the greatest numbers of children out of poverty, and we have done precisely that. The only people that have been playing politics with children's lives and children's futures are the party opposite Chris Vince.

18:04

Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )

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Thank you, Madam Deputy. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy. >> Speaker. >> And I thank. >> The Secretary of State for her statement today. I speak to statement today. I speak to teachers a lot on a weekly basis in Harlow who tell me that poverty is a huge barrier for young people's education, and as a former teacher myself, I can absolutely testify to that. So could the Secretary of State touch upon how these policies make a huge difference to young people in Harlow, not just their education outcomes, but also how it will support teachers to be able to get the best outcomes for them.

18:04

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Hear. teachers and staff across our country about the impact that child poverty has on their ability to do their jobs. They do amazing things their jobs. They do amazing things to support children and families in their care, whether that's helping around temporary accommodation, washing clothes, even sometimes putting their hands in their own pocket to provide financial support for families that are struggling. But they shouldn't have to do that, and it isn't sustainable. And that's why the investment that we're making in lifting children out of poverty is also an investment in children and their life chances and an investment in education, because, again, the evidence is clear that not only do big gaps open up in terms of attainment for children who are on free school meals, but we also know that those who've experienced child poverty are more likely to be unemployed or in low, low skilled or lower paid jobs as adults.

So this is about the difference we make, not just in the here and now. For our children. It is a long term investment in our education system, in our teachers and in our staff, but it is also an investment in making sure we have a stronger and more resilient economy to.

18:06

Ian Roome MP (North Devon, Liberal Democrat)

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Ian Roome speaker, in the year 2000, half of the children in 2000, half of the children in poverty lived in workless families, but now almost three quarters of but now almost three quarters of children in poverty are in working families, and millions of Universal Credit recipients have a job but suffer from low wages. Can I ask the Secretary of State how that has shaped the new strategy to ending child poverty? Poverty in rural and coastal communities like North Devon, where many parents wages are very basic.

18:06

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Question. children in poverty are living and working families, and it is an artificial political dividing line. To suggest anything other than that To suggest anything other than that is the case. The evidence is very, very clear that anyone who wants to look at it now, there are a number of reasons for that. Low pay is one of them. That's why we're increasing the national minimum wage. Access to childcare has been a big, big barrier, particularly for many single parents over a very long period of time.

And one key element that we considered during the development of the strategy was that if alongside lifting the two child limit, if we could support more second earners in a two earner household into work or to work more hours, that was also one of the most effective ways that we could lift more children out of poverty. That's why next year we're investing £9 billion in expanding government funded childcare, creating new school based nurseries, but also rolling out nationally free breakfast clubs to make sure that parents have better choices at the start of the school day.

18:07

Peter Swallow MP (Bracknell, Labour)

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Peter Swallow. >> Peter Swallow. >> I'm honoured to represent Bracknell in this place, a relatively prosperous community relatively prosperous community where still 1 in 5 children are growing up in poverty after housing growing up in poverty after housing costs, Bracknell food Bank gave out 8000 food parcels last year, 3000 of them to children. Does my right hon. Friend agree with me that poverty affects all communities across the UK? In every constituency there are children living in poverty, and that is why it must be our moral mission to stamp out child poverty wherever we find it.

18:08

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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My friend is right that child poverty blights the life chances of children right across our country, including in communities that might otherwise appear affluent. There will always be children who are enduring the hardship and the injustice of child poverty, and I injustice of child poverty, and I am grateful for his support and everything that he does to champion the life chances of children in his community and in the strategy that we are setting out. This will deliver real changes to children, not just in Bracknell but across our country to Louie French.

18:08

Mr Louie French MP (Old Bexley and Sidcup, Conservative)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Despite assurances to the contrary, children in my constituency have children in my constituency have had their school courses cut and parents across the UK have lost their jobs because of this. their jobs because of this. Government. With over 180,000 jobs lost over the past year. If unemployment and taxes continue to unemployment and taxes continue to rise, how many more children does she expect to grow up in poverty? Or is this just the price that the Welfare Party opposite expect families to pay?

18:08

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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There we are, the true face of >> There we are, the true face of the Tory party, describing people who are in work. In that kind of way. We will always back working way. We will always back working people. And I'd just point out to the hon. Gentleman that there are the hon. Gentleman that there are 329,000 more people in work than was the case a year ago. We are tackling poverty, we are supporting parents back into work, and we will reform our welfare system alongside it.

But he and the party opposite should have the good grace and the humility to accept that the decisions that they took have pushed hundreds of thousands of children into poverty, including in his community. Maybe he should go and speak to them and see what they say to him.

18:09

Johanna Baxter MP (Paisley and Renfrewshire South, Labour)

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Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. >> Johanna Baxter. Yeah. >> Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker, can I warmly welcome the publication of this child poverty strategy and in particular, the lifting of the two child benefit cap, which will lift 1560 children in Paisley and Renfrewshire South out of poverty. But there remain 100,000 children in Scotland stuck in homelessness accommodation. And that is on the SNP's watch because they have control of that in the Scottish Government. So what assurances can my right hon.

Friend give me that she will work with colleagues in the Scottish Government to ensure that every lever of power is exerted, to make sure that constituents in Paisley and Renfrewshire South get the same opportunities as constituents across the rest of the UK.

18:10

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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This is. A UK wide strategy and >> This is. A UK wide strategy and one where we will continue to work with the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government and the Northern Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive to bring down poverty in all of our four nations. But she is also right to draw But she is also right to draw attention to the staggering and appalling record of the SNP government in Scotland, particularly where it comes to homelessness, and to highlight the impact that temporary accommodation and homelessness has on the life chances of children.

She, of course, will know as well as I do that this Labour government in Westminster delivered a record settlement to the SNP government in Scotland. They have choices about how they take this forward, but of course, if they fail to do so, if they fail to take the decisive action that people across Scotland need, then perhaps it really is time for a new direction for Scotland. With Anas Sarwar Kirsty Blackman.

18:11

Kirsty Blackman MP (Aberdeen North, Scottish National Party)

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It is nice to hear the Secretary of State acknowledging that child poverty is lower in Scotland than poverty is lower in Scotland than it is in England, and is reducing in Scotland. The only part of the UK where it is going down. This is UK where it is going down. This is the graph in the government's own document, I would say, and the document is 113 pages long. 34 of them are blank or just references. 25 of them are explaining the problem, so less than half of them are about what the government is going to do and of those policies that are included in the document, almost every single one has already been announced.

Why have we waited a year and a half for this child poverty strategy that is frankly unambitious? The the the the strategy has been published. It does not have any evaluation criteria. When the best start Bright Futures policy was published in Scotland, it had alongside it evaluation criteria other than just those two headline measures. The Secretary of State has mentioned, will she lay out what evaluation criteria she is going to use to ensure that these changes make a positive difference for people?

18:12

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Madam Deputy Speaker I thought when the hon. Lady stood up, she was about to congratulate the UK government for lifting the two government for lifting the two child limit. Something I've heard I talk about a lot in this house. She was right to do so. So where was was right to do so. So where was the welcome for the change that we are bringing today? Of course, the SNP government could effectively abolish the two child limit in abolish the two child limit in Scotland, but they have sat on their hands and sadly all the evidence suggests that they are about to miss their child poverty targets.

Debbie Abrahams.

18:12

Debbie Abrahams MP (Oldham East and Saddleworth, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And again, I also warmly congratulate my right hon. Friend for the introduction of this child poverty strategy, and particularly the lifting of the two child limit, which will make a measurable difference to hundreds of thousands of children's lives. Child poverty doesn't just blight educational attainment and employment prospects, but it is also a key indicator for population health and health inequalities. So can I press my right hon.

Friend on targets in relation to this? By reducing, for example, child poverty by 35%, by 2033, it will be 291 fewer infant mortality deaths for 4700 fewer looked after children and 33,000 fewer emergency admissions for children. So can I ask my right hon. Friend to look at these so that we know that we're on the right track? Thank you, thank you, thank you.

18:13

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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I'm grateful to my hon. Friend, the chair of the Select Committee. I know she's long campaigned on these important areas around the relationship between poverty and health inequalities, and through the development of the strategy and through the taskforce, we took through the taskforce, we took evidence from experts in this area. I give her the commitment that, yes, we will continue to consider the impact on health, including health inequalities of poverty and through the development of the strategy and through publication. We want to see this as part of a long term, ten year strategy for lasting change.

The monitoring and evaluation framework that was published alongside the strategy sets out our plans to track progress, and this will include a comprehensive programme of analysis focusing on the drivers of child poverty and the impact of specific interventions. And we will continue to publish more data that she and others can continue to hold Ministers to account on the progress that we want to make on bringing numbers of children in poverty down.

18:14

Jess Brown-Fuller MP (Chichester, Liberal Democrat)

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Jess Brown-Fuller. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and I refer members to my Register of Interests as the chair of the APPG for Infant Feeding. The government's response to the CMA's report into infant formula, which aims to give parents the confidence to choose any brand of formula, regardless of price point because they're all nutritionally equivalent, is a really welcome first step. As part of the child poverty strategy, but without tackling and enforcing the marketing legislation so formula companies can't continue to use intangible claims on their packaging, their announcement will not protect all parents.

So can the Secretary of State please tell me when we can expect this legislation to be reviewed? As a review was committed to in the government's announcement last week.

18:15

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'm grateful to the hon. Lady for the work that she does in this important area. As she knows, important area. As she knows, parents will save up to £500 a year as a result of the plans that we've set out around action on baby set out around action on baby formula so that parents can make the right choices for them. Of course, we know that it is also important to put in place support for parents who wish to breastfeed, and that's why we've also extended and expanded the National Breastfeeding Helpline, running alongside support that will be available in Best Start family hubs to make sure that parents have mothers have choices about the right approach for them.

And I'll make sure that Minister and the Department for Health and Social Care writes to her to give her an about.

18:15

David Williams MP (Stoke-on-Trent North, Labour)

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David Williams speaker. >> David Williams speaker. >> The removal. >> Of the two child limit is welcome news, and in my welcome news, and in my constituency it will lift well over 4000 kids out of poverty in my area alone. Now, I saw it firsthand, alone. Now, I saw it firsthand, madam Deputy Speaker, how 14 years of austerity left families in Stoke on Trent and Kidsgrove in crisis. Early support was taken away and we now have amongst the highest numbers of kids living in poverty anywhere in the country.

So I wonder, does the Secretary of State agree with me that we must also start to build back that local, personalised family support, for example, through our family homes,

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which were absolutely decimated government? Yeah.

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I agree with my friend and I know from previous conversations he worked in a surestart centre and was involved in the delivery of was involved in the delivery of those services and BESS start family hubs will draw on what we know works from Surestart. The evaluation evidence is incredibly clear about the impact it had on children's life chances on

18:16

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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admissions to hospital, on the increase in exam grades that we saw of children who lived near to a centre. That's why we've committed to funding all local authorities to deliver Best Start family hubs, backed up by £500 million to help families in every part of the country. And that roll out will create 1000 best start family hubs nationwide by the end of 2028. Supporting parents, backing children and making sure that we we reduce the longer term impacts that we see where parents don't have the support they need, where children have to wait too long for the support that they deserve, and all of the devastation that has followed from that very, very short sighted decision taken back in 2010 to remove funding from Surestart by that previous government Ann Davies.

18:17

Ann Davies MP (Caerfyrddin, Plaid Cymru)

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Madam Tewkesbury has led the charge in Wales against the two charge in Wales against the two child limit, so we welcome the fact that scrapping it is a cornerstone that scrapping it is a cornerstone of this strategy. As you know, in in Wales, child poverty is around 34%. So 34% of our children live in poverty. But there is a catch because the benefit cap remains in place. And around 10% of the children in Wales who are currently hit by the two child limit won't see any improvement.

And on top of that, another 1 in 10 households could find themselves capped for the very first time. So will the Secretary of State build on the child poverty strategy by removing, or at least raising the benefit cap?

18:18

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Madam Deputy Speaker, it is a Labour government that is lifting Labour government that is lifting the two child limit and will make sure that children in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland get the support that they deserve. She references the benefit cap that limits the total amount of benefits a working age household can receive. Of course, that only applies where you are talking about families where there is not someone in work. I do think it is right that we support people into work, and we make sure that we have incentives that back that.

But alongside that, in England we are delivering a big expansion in childcare because we know it's important to support families. But of course, it was the Welsh Labour Government that first introduced free breakfast clubs, something that I'm proud to be introducing here in England. Stella Creasy thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker.

18:19

Ms Stella Creasy MP (Walthamstow, Labour )

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I recognise that we shouldn't take any lessons from the benches take any lessons from the benches opposite because they don't seem to understand that lots of families in understand that lots of families in work are affected by the two child cap, and their priorities seem to need a rethink because they seem to be the same people arguing against lifting the two child cap. But for subsidising private school fees, they'll go to the wall for some kids to play the Eton Wall game, but not for all children to be able to eat where.

I do think there is an issue, and I recognise and welcome the Secretary of State's plans for a review of early years funding, is that we know right now only 20% of those taking up the 30 funded free hours of childcare are on the lowest incomes. What's critical to this is the role of the DWP, because a million women in this country are out of work right now because of their caring commitments. And one of the things I'd love to see is the DWP in Surestart centres, working with mums.

So they knew about tax free funded childcare. They knew about the changes he's making to Universal Credit. Will she meet with me and others concerned about this, about how we bring those systems together so those million women are not forgotten but supported under this government?

18:20

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Alex Baker I'd be happy to meet with my hon. Friend to discuss this further. A key commitment that we further. A key commitment that we made through the development of this strategy was that we want to make the system of childcare support and early years education support and early years education much simpler and much more straightforward for families to access. We know it's a complex system that has built up over time and changed and developed over time, and I want to make it easier for families to get the support that they need.

But we have already taken action around expanding the 30 hours of government funded childcare around Universal Credit cost caps, around upfront childcare costs. And I know that my right hon. Friend is making sure that work cultures and job centres are able to provide additional support for families around what's available, but I wholly accept that there is more to do, and I'd be delighted to discuss it with her further.

18:21

Tim Farron MP (Westmorland and Lonsdale, Liberal Democrat)

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Tim Farron. >> Thank you, Madam Speaker. >> What assessment is the Secretary of State made of the impact on child poverty of the government's child poverty of the government's rather blanket approach to changing local government funding and taking support away from rural councils? Westmorland and Furness Council stands to lose 13% of its Budget, which will not only exacerbate child poverty and reduce education and life chances for children. In my constituency, 1 in 5 children in Kendal already living in poverty in parts of the town, but also will undermine the government's own plans to regenerate the town of Barrow, which underpins the UK's nuclear deterrent and its defence capability.

Will she, at this last moment, urgently get involved and talk to Cabinet colleagues to prevent these deeply damaging cuts, which will exacerbate child poverty and put the country at risk?

18:21

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Secretary of. >> I'm sure the right hon. Gentleman has made his views known to Ministers at MHCLG, and I'll make sure that they are passed make sure that they are passed along. But I would say that in lifting the two child limit and expanding access to childcare, expanding free school meals, increasing the national minimum wage, expanding rights at work, these are all big changes that will make a real difference to children and families in his constituency.

18:22

Ian Lavery MP (Blyth and Ashington, Labour)

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Ian Lavery thank you. >> Ian Lavery thank you. >> As obvious by the the absence of our friends on the opposite benches, our friends on the opposite benches, how interested they actually are in eradicating child poverty. The it's eradicating child poverty. The it's a moral duty of any government to eradicate every single child from child poverty. A massive thank you Secretary of State from the 3000 kids, the bairns in my constituency who benefit so much from withdrawn the two child cap last week.

However, we must continue. We must go further. And can she come? My honourable right hon. Friend, reassure me and my constituents that in the talks to further eradicate child poverty, discussions will take place with regards to the roll out of universal free school meals for people in Blyth and Ashington like other people in different regions, actually get.

18:23

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Secretary of State. That, my >> Secretary of State. That, my friend, is absolutely right that poverty does scarred the life chances of children, and it is chances of children, and it is always been the moral mission of this Labour Party, and it will always be the moral mission of this always be the moral mission of this Labour government to end child poverty and to reduce the hardship and the injustice that child poverty brings, not just the long term outcomes that our children suffer, but the deep injustice and the deep sense of hopelessness, often that child poverty can cause for children and families.

So I am delighted that we have taken action to lift the two child limit that will benefit thousands of children in his constituency, and alongside that, from next September, an expanding free school meals to all families. In receipt of Universal Credit, we will lift 100,000 more children out of poverty. We all know that in a constrained environment with a tough set of circumstances around the public finances, there are challenges and constraints under which we operate. But we have taken the decision as a Labour government to prioritise investment in our children, in their futures and in our economy.

18:24

Zöe Franklin MP (Guildford, Liberal Democrat)

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Zoe Franklin thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. >> In my constituency of Guildford, as with so many other constituencies across the UK, we constituencies across the UK, we have particular challenges around the fact we have significant affluence and just across the road affluence and just across the road we have extreme poverty. We have areas where 1 in 3 children are living in poverty in my constituency, despite the great work of many local organisations. Can the Minister set out what measures are in the strategy to specifically address this challenge? So.

18:24

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Madam Deputy Speaker, I do recognise that even in more affluent communities there can be affluent communities there can be pockets of deprivation and many and many children can still be living in poverty. And it was right that in poverty. And it was right that we tackle child poverty wherever it occurs. But the measures that we're setting out, both in the child poverty strategy and the measures in the Budget, will make a big difference to her constituents, whether that's freezing rail fares, freezing prescription charges, increasing the national minimum wage, improve rights at work, 30 hours of government funded childcare, new free breakfast clubs, free school meals for all families on universal Credit.

It's a very long list, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'll leave it there, but there's a lot more I could say in the difference that it's making. Harpreet Uppal.

18:25

Harpreet Uppal MP (Huddersfield, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I welcome the strategy, particularly the work that is being particularly the work that is being done on the new measure of deep material poverty, which will be really, really important in understanding the experience of understanding the experience of children. Can I particularly ask about the family start hubs and also the extension of the Holiday Food Programme? Is the Secretary able to say more about how much that will be extended, how long that will be extended for and how quickly the hubs will be rolled out.

Thank you.

18:25

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. We're investing £500 million more to make sure that we're expanding best make sure that we're expanding best start family hubs to local authorities have that provision and by the end of the parliament, 1000 best start family hubs will have been ruled out. That will make a huge difference to children and families across our country and as she says, runs alongside the Holiday Activity and Food Programme. We've confirmed over £600 million for the Holiday Activities and Food Programme for the next three financial years and this multi-year settlement will also give give clubs and local authorities greater certainty to be able to plan, because we did hear directly from families during the development of the strategy, the challenges that they often face during the holiday period.

And I do just want to put on record my particular thanks to Changing Realities, who worked with us to make sure that the views of parents and children living in poverty were heard during the development of this strategy, and I'm very grateful for all of the support that they give, so that those at the sharp end of poverty were able to influence government decision making and shape the strategy. Helen Maguire Mr. Speaker, I absolutely welcome this government's roll out of free school breakfast in every primary school.

However, I.

18:27

Helen Maguire MP (Epsom and Ewell, Liberal Democrat)

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Recently met the. >> Recently met the. >> Local school in the early adopter scheme in my constituency, and they shared their concerns that their funding is not enough to their funding is not enough to provide a full breakfast for each child, and in some cases, children go without anything. I want to ensure that every child receives a free, fresh and nutritious breakfast. So will the Minister confirm that schools are receiving enough money to ensure children are getting a proper breakfast, and not just a snack or nothing at all? Okay, madam Deputy Speaker, in launching our the first phase, our early adopter phase of 750 free breakfast clubs, we wanted to make sure that we covered schools in a range of different communities and in different contexts with

18:27

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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different cohorts of students, and we've been able to learn from that in setting out how we will be delivering funding for the next phase from April 2026. So we're making changes to the funding around the daily rate, around the around the daily rate, around the per pupil rate. But I'd also encourage the school in her constituency to share her views with us as the department, because with us as the department, because we are keen to learn from the experiences of staff on the ground, but also to share her views through

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the peer network that we've established so that schools can share experiences and good practice. Tom Collins thank. You.

18:28

Tom Collins MP (Worcester, Labour)

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Madam Speaker. pleased that family. >> Hubs are at the heart of this strategy and that it values a fresh approach rooted in place, community and partnership across sectors. This could be a watershed moment that finally breaks the cycles of disadvantage and inequality. The Family Hubs APPG represents a diverse collective of organisations who are already doing just this, innovating through partnerships rooted in communities. And I thank the Secretary of State Department's excellent engagement with our sector collaboration. Will she ensure that this continues, and does she agree that empowering all families with frictionless, integrated support is key to building a fairer, stronger, responsible society that gives each and every person the freedom to thrive?

18:28

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Minister. work through the all party group in this important area, and I'd be more than happy to make sure that the department, through officials the department, through officials or Ministers, continues to work with the all party group as we roll out best family hubs, and as we learn from the best evidence around learn from the best evidence around how we can continue to support parents and families, our new Best Start Family hubs will offer universal open access services for babies and children, with a real focus on the under-fives, where we know we make the biggest difference to children's life chances.

Best family hubs will be funded in every local authority and open to all families, but the focus will be on locating them in disadvantaged communities where we know the need for support is greatest.

18:29

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Jim Shannon Mr Speaker. Can I thank the Secretary of State and the Labour Government for their commitment to have a strategy to reduce child poverty? The announcement regarding the two announcement regarding the two child benefit cap are welcome. It will take potentially 130,000 children out of poverty in Northern Ireland. But it is important to remember, as the Prime Minister said himself, that three quarters of children are poverty, are in working families. So can again ask this very respectfully are advised within the child poverty strategy.

What specifically is in place to protect children with working parents who will have the rising cost of living, freezing of tax thresholds and child care, but will still struggle to pay the means? Thank you chair.

18:30

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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I'm grateful to the hon. Gentleman. He will know. I've told him previously that through the work of the Child Poverty Taskforce, I also visited Northern Ireland to I also visited Northern Ireland to to meet with campaigners and charities and parents there to understand that the challenges that they face, some of those challenges they face, some of those challenges are shared, for example around the social security system and lifting the two child limit will make a big difference in Northern Ireland. Of course, in some areas these are questions of devolved policy.

But I did discuss while I was there with Ministers around the education system and around access to childcare, and also the development led by the Northern Ireland Executive around action on child poverty. And we will continue that strategy.

18:30

Sam Rushworth MP (Bishop Auckland, Labour)

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Can I urge colleagues to be >> Can I urge colleagues to be remaining. >> On this Sam Rushworth. >> Thank you. >> Madam Deputy.

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Madam Deputy. Speaker, can I thank the Secretary of State for this strategy? This is what I came into strategy? This is what I came into politics for. And can I thank her for the rollout of Preston family hubs? And I appreciate it's impossible to do everything all at once, given the state of our inheritance. But even with the measures announced, children in children, children in crook, two towns of 10,000 people with high levels of child poverty in my constituency will not have a best start family hub.

So would she meet with me or ask the Minister to meet with me to discuss what we can do for those children?

18:31

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Yes, of course, I'd be happy to meet with my hon. Friend, I know he meet with my hon. Friend, I know he has done an incredible amount to champion the life chances of children in his community, a community that covers many towns community that covers many towns and villages, but also a big and rural population, which presents some unique challenges. But perhaps we could discuss that further, and how we can make sure that more of his constituents are able to benefit from family support services.

But the lifting of the two child limit will make a huge difference. Alongside the wider measures on childcare to Afzal Khan.

18:32

Afzal Khan MP (Manchester Rusholme, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Following 14 years of Tory austerity, harsh cuts to the public austerity, harsh cuts to the public services and cost of living crisis, more than half of all children in more than half of all children in my constituency of Manchester Rusholme are living in poverty. My hon. Friend has shown excellent leadership through this strategy, but given the dire condition the Tories left the country in, can I encourage the Secretary of State to also look at measures to prevent the causes of poverty and go further so that we can end child poverty for good?

18:32

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Yes, Madam Deputy Speaker, like my hon. Friend, I am always my hon. Friend, I am always ambitious to do more, to lift more children out of poverty and to create better conditions where we tackle the root causes of poverty. tackle the root causes of poverty. This is an incredibly strong start, an ambitious strategy that will see the biggest reduction in child poverty numbers in any Parliament since records began. That shows the scale of our ambition, and this ten year strategy will make sure that fewer children suffer the injustice and the deep moral scar of growing up in poverty.

But yes, of course, there is always more to do.

18:33

Dame Nia Griffith MP (Llanelli, Labour)

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Nia Griffith well, I'd like. >> Right hon. >> Friend, the Secretary of State, for the enormous amount of work that she's putting in to developing this comprehensive child poverty strategy and into determining which single measures would have the greatest impact. And it's in that context that I very much welcome the removal of the two child benefit cap. But what assurances can she give that her colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions are making available the necessary staffing levels and training to ensure that the enhanced payments reach families without any delay or complications.

18:33

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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I'm grateful to my right hon. >> I'm grateful to my right hon. Friend, and who I know has always had a long standing commitment to tackling child poverty. It was clear through this strategy that clear through this strategy that lifting the two child limit was the single most effective way that we could lift the greatest number of children out of poverty, alongside children out of poverty, alongside the wider measures we're tackling to tackle the root causes of child poverty. And my right hon.

Friend, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, intends to bring forward legislation in the New Year.

18:33

Dr Marie Tidball MP (Penistone and Stocksbridge, Labour)

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Marie Tidball. >> Marie Tidball. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Over 23% of children in my Penistone and Stocksbridge Penistone and Stocksbridge constituency are living in poverty. This is unacceptable. We know that children grow up growing up in children grow up growing up in poverty, are less likely to be in work, and will earn 25% less than their peers by the time they are 30. Scrapping the evil two child benefit cap will benefit 1140 children in my constituency.

Contrary to what the shadow Secretary of State says, this is an investment in their future. Given that it is the moral mission of this government to break the devastating cycle of child poverty. Poverty. Will the Secretary of State work with me to look at opportunities for a family hub in Chapeltown in my constituency, to also serve Burncross and Ecclesfield areas to.

18:35

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Yes, of course, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'd be happy to discuss it further with my hon. Friend. She is further with my hon. Friend. She is absolutely right that child poverty doesn't just have a deep and lasting impact on the individual children and families concerned. children and families concerned. There is a clear link to worklessness to poorer health outcomes, and to attainment of outcomes, and to attainment of school, and to the flow through into the the very, very high levels of young people who are not in education, employment or training.

That's why the measures we're taking are the right thing to do, both for children and our society.

18:35

Mohammad Yasin MP (Bedford, Labour)

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Mohammad Yasin thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The child poverty strategy includes welcome measures strategy includes welcome measures for families in Bedford and Kempston from removing the two child limit to expanding free school meals, child care support and family hubs. These are all fantastic, but one of the most urgent issues affecting children's wellbeing is the rise in families living in temporary accommodations. That is anything but temporary. So will the Secretary of State set clear targets to ensure measurable progress is reducing? In reducing the numbers of children living in such unsuitable conditions?

18:36

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Yes, Madam Deputy Speaker, through the strategy, we are taking through the strategy, we are taking action around the unacceptably high levels of those living in temporary accommodation that we inherited from the party opposite. We are from the party opposite. We are making progress. We've made progress in the last year, with numbers falling by over 40% since numbers falling by over 40% since June. But there is more to do. That's why we're investing more into local councils who see the biggest use of temporary accommodation like B&Bs.

But it also runs alongside the £39 billion of investment going into social and affordable housing to make sure that all children have a secure roof over their heads.

18:36

Rosie Wrighting MP (Kettering, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I welcome the child poverty strategy and all this government is doing to undo the cruel policies of doing to undo the cruel policies of the Tories, in which children in Kettering paid the price. Investing in a child early on in life is key in a child early on in life is key to success in adulthood. So can the Secretary of State explain how this strategy will help? Being that young adults who break the cycle of poverty are the norm, not the exception?

18:37

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Yeah. visit a breakfast club in her constituency to see the difference that will make to children's outcomes. The evidence is clear about the impact on educational outcomes, but how it also supports more parents to work the hours that suit them, and often to take on more hours to child poverty, has devastating long term impacts for our economy and for society. And we know that when it comes to the long term impacts on children, children are more likely to end up workless, less likely to do well at school and more likely to have long term health outcomes.

That is something this Labour government is determined to change.

18:37

Antonia Bance MP (Tipton and Wednesbury, Labour)

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Antonia Bance thank you, Madam Deputy. >> Speaker, and I want to thank my right hon. Friend for her leadership on the two child limit and for always carrying the kids

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and for always carrying the kids who didn't eat last night in her heart. Yeah. Last week I was at Sacred Heart School in Tipton, in my School in Tipton, in my constituency. I met the school council and I met the teaching staff there, and they spoke to me about how difficult it is that so many children living in temporary accommodation on the Hagley Road in Birmingham have to get two or more buses and trains to get to school every morning. Their parents get them there by hook or by crook, but they're late often and it has an impact on their lives.

Can you can the Secretary of State tell us a little bit more about what she'll do to make sure our youngest children, in particular, are out of bed and breakfast as soon as possible?

18:38

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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I'm grateful to my hon. Friend for everything that she's done over many years to campaign on these many years to campaign on these issues around child poverty, but also when it comes to housing as well. We have announced an ambition to cut school days lost for children in temporary accommodation because she's right. It often means children arrive late at school or don't arrive at all, and that has a longstanding impact on their life chances. We are investing more in local authorities who make the biggest use of B&B accommodation.

We're making progress and bringing those numbers down and alongside that, investing in more social and affordable housing. And I do also, Madam Deputy Speaker, want to thank many of the campaigners and charities and others who shaped this strategy, worked with us to develop the best case for how we lift children out of poverty. Paying tribute in particular to the Child Poverty Action Group and Save the Children, who have provided enormous support in making the case for why this is not just necessary for children's life chances, but essential for our society.

18:39

Alex Sobel MP (Leeds Central and Headingley, Labour )

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Alex Sobel thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm sure my right Deputy Speaker. I'm sure my right hon. Friend has heard the Leeds charity Zarach, which was formed by teachers because children were too teachers because children were too tired at school because they had no beds. What is my right hon. Friend going to do about poverty proofing schools, whether that's beds or today? I was at Holy Name School where children were in the Rock Steady Band, but some parents couldn't afford for their children to do that, or digital equipment or any other thing which creates the inequality in schools and which we need to eradicate.

18:39

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Madam Deputy Speaker, we know >> Madam Deputy Speaker, we know that children who are hungry, living in temporary accommodation are not in a position to learn effectively, and that has a long effectively, and that has a long standing impact, including on teachers and support staff. I am interested in some of the approaches that have been taken around poverty proofing, including in my own region in the North East. It's why we're taking action in one area, for example, around capping the number of branded items that schools can insist upon for their students.

That will bring down the cost to parents. Children should be smart at school. It shouldn't cost their parents the earth.

18:40

Perran Moon MP (Camborne and Redruth, Labour)

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I need colleagues to be respectful of other members. The questions along I won't be able to get many people in Perran Moon. get many people in Perran Moon. >> Deputy speaker, when the removal of the two child benefit limit is considered chronologically alongside the expansion of Best Start hubs, support for childcare, free breakfasts, free school meals and now the Youth Guarantee. Does and now the Youth Guarantee. Does the Secretary of State state agree with me that through the fog of deprivation, it is now possible to make out a ladder of hope from cradle to career for the children

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from our poorest backgrounds? Yeah. Madam Deputy Speaker, my hon. Friend has always stood up for children in his community, and it's children in his community, and it's through his election to this place and the election of a Labour government that by the end of this

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Parliament, we will see the biggest ever reduction in child poverty numbers since records began. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

18:41

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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>> Thank you, Madam Speaker. >> I welcome the statement. I welcome the I welcome the strategy. Sorry. 5500 children in Derby South being lifted out of poverty. I also particularly welcome changes around temporary accommodation. Does my right hon. Friend agree with me right hon. Friend agree with me that no child, whether it's in Derby or anywhere else in the country, should be brought up in a bed and breakfast?

18:41

Baggy Shanker MP (Derby South, Labour )

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Minister of State agree. Absolutely. And that's why we're taking action to bring those numbers down, to build more social and affordable homes, but also to give parents and young people the skills that they need to get good, well-paid jobs.

18:41

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Blake. my debate in June, I welcome that children, with no recourse to public funds are recognised as part of this strategy and that there is

18:41

Olivia Blake MP (Sheffield Hallam, Labour)

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a commitment to ensure that vulnerable migrant children receive the support that they require, regardless of their immigration regardless of their immigration status within this. I want to ask, can the Secretary of State confirm what assessments have been what assessments have been undertaken to assess the impact of the recent proposals to extend the recent proposals to extend pathways to settlement to 15, 20 or even 30 years? This will inevitably impact children. Will she meet with

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impact children. Will she meet with me to discuss these issues? There are important, important safeguards that currently exist within the system to ensure that vulnerable migrant children are protected. And I'll make sure that my hon. Friend gets the meeting with the relevant Minister that she requests to discuss her concerns further.

18:42

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Andrew Pakes. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Representing a city that has 20,000 children living in poverty, I strongly welcome the crucial fact this strategy isn't just about the poverty of the family Budget. It is about the poverty of ambition. Because too many of those 20,000 children have parents in low paid, children have parents in low paid, insecure work. Can my right hon. Friend tell us what the strategy will do to lift ambition for will do to lift ambition for apprenticeships and skills and changing not just lives for those children, but the lives of those parents as well? parents as well?

18:42

Andrew Pakes MP (Peterborough, Labour )

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I know my hon. Friend cares very passionately about making sure we've got good routes and careers into technical and vocational education, and more apprenticeships for young people in Peterborough. That's why I've been working with my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, on our on our ambitious Post-16 strategy to make sure that young strategy to make sure that young people at the start of their careers have great options when it comes to academic, technical and vocational routes.

And why? Today, we've been setting out how we, as a government, intend to deliver more apprenticeship opportunities for beyond. beyond.

18:43

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Dixon. child poverty strategy, which by the end of the Parliament will take

18:43

Jim Dickson MP (Dartford, Labour)

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2500 children in Dartford out of poverty? Given how it has been said, growing up in poverty hugely growing up in poverty hugely increases the likelihood of suffering poor mental and physical health and hugely reduces the health and hugely reduces the chance of holding down a better paying job and going into further and higher education. Would the and higher education. Would the Secretary of State agree with me that the strategy isn't about just reducing the numbers in poverty, it's an investment in the UK's

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it's an investment in the UK's future and that of its people. It is an investment in our children, their futures and our society and economy. And the strategy addresses some of the big challenges that we see, but also sets out the important ways that we will tackle the structural and root causes of why we see so many children in our country growing up in poverty, whether that's skills, access to work or childcare, all of access to work or childcare, all of which we will take action as a government to support families.

18:44

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Jacob Collier.

18:44

Jacob Collier MP (Burton and Uttoxeter, Labour)

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Thanks to this government, 3150 children in my constituency will be lifted out of poverty. We're lifted out of poverty. We're starting to see free breakfast clubs being set up and sure starts are being revived under Tory are being revived under Tory governments. Poverty goes up, but under Labour governments it always comes down. So will she ensure that this government continues to drive down poverty and support families?

18:44

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Madam Deputy Speaker, through rolling out breakfast clubs, expanding free school meals, expanding childcare and much more. expanding childcare and much more. Besides this, Labour government backs families, backs children to succeed. But we will also make sure that there are far, far fewer children growing up in poverty by the end of this Parliament than at the start. The biggest ever reduction since records began.

18:45

Chris Bloore MP (Redditch, Labour)

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Chris Law thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I came. a shared fundamental principle, that this place was to ensure children had more than ourselves had. Whilst the opposition don't had. Whilst the opposition don't want to talk about the 900,000 children, they plunged into poverty. And I commend the Secretary of State for her statement today that actually champions the life chances of children in Redditch, rather than using them as cheap, dehumanising political slogans for their own ends.

18:45

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Yeah. >> My hon. Friend is right that too often children have been used as pawns in a political game to use political dividing lines where the political dividing lines where the evidence simply doesn't back up what the party opposite say. And I would also say that children in poverty and their families do not lack ambition and do not lack aspiration. They want the best for their children. They want better life chances than they themselves had enjoyed. And this Labour government will make sure children in Redditch and across our country get those opportunities.

18:46

Anna Dixon MP (Shipley, Labour)

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Anna Dixon thank you, Madam >> Anna Dixon thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Churches across my Shipley constituency see first hand the impact of child poverty in the impact of child poverty in their schools and communities. I recently visited the Shipley School Uniform Hub run by the Salvation Army, providing pre-loved uniforms to families who can barely afford the essentials. I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the publication of the Child Poverty Strategy, which is bold and morally right. Addressing both the causes and consequences of child poverty.

Does she agree with me that delivering on this strategy will not only require action across government, but working in partnership with communities, in particular faith communities?

18:46

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Yes, Madam Deputy Speaker, and through the evidence of the taskforce, we heard from faith communities, from churches and others about what they are seeking others about what they are seeking to do to support families. I commend them for the work, the amazing volunteers and those who amazing volunteers and those who work in our communities to support children and families. But what I also heard loud and clear from many of them is that if children and families were not enduring such hardship and not enduring such poverty, they could also dedicate more time to important projects around areas like loneliness, around support for residents who are experiencing real disadvantage, they would much prefer to focus their efforts on areas where they can make a big difference.

They shouldn't be having to step in where government fails, and that is why today's publication of the strategy marks an important step forward in government's responsibility to support children and families working alongside our faith leaders and churches.

18:47

Shaun Davies MP (Telford, Labour)

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To Shaun Davies. school meals. When my both my parents were working free school meals gave me a helping hand, not a hand out. Now, 4000 children in Telford are looking for the same, so they can contribute proudly to this country and its future. Can my right hon. Friend tell me one reason why she believes that the party opposite wants to plunge 4000 children back into poverty?

18:48

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Madam Deputy Speaker, I think >> Madam Deputy Speaker, I think the party opposite, as they have done over many, many years since they introduced many of these punishing changes around Social Security, are using our children as pawns to make a political argument pawns to make a political argument that is not borne out by the evidence. Children in his community will benefit from the difference that a Labour government is making, whether that's lifting the two child limit, expanding free school meals or improved childcare for families.

And it's through his election to this place and through securing a Labour government last difference.

18:48

Sarah Russell MP (Congleton, Labour)

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Sarah Russell 174,000 children live in temporary accommodation at live in temporary accommodation at a cost of £2.2 billion. I welcome the Secretary of State's commitment to reducing those numbers, but even to reducing those numbers, but even if they were reduced dramatically, there would still be a lot of children having safeguarding problems. 80 children died in problems. 80 children died in temporary accommodation last year. Please can she outline how she will facilitate better information sharing between services and local authorities, specifically with regard to children in temporary accommodation?

18:49

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Yes, Madam Deputy Speaker, this is an enormous challenge. As my hon. Friend identifies, we announced a Friend identifies, we announced a clear pledge to prevent deaths caused by gaps in healthcare. We know some of the terrible outcomes know some of the terrible outcomes that we see for children through poor quality accommodation. We are investing more. We are determined to bring that down. It will require a lot of us right across government to work on this, and the department at MHCLG will shortly be setting out their homelessness strategy, with further measures to bring down the use of temporary accommodation and to support families.

18:49

Frank McNally MP (Coatbridge and Bellshill, Labour)

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Frank McNally. welcome the Child Poverty Strategy. More than 2000 children in my constituency will benefit from the abolition of the two child benefit cap 100,000. In Scotland. It is a shocking reality, however, that shocking reality, however, that there are 10,000 children in Scotland this Christmas languishing in temporary accommodation. The SNP have declared a housing emergency but done very little to address it. Can my right hon. Friend outline what steps she can take to work with the Scottish Government, if

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necessary, to try and tackle this crisis head on? Hear, hear! Of course I am. Through the development of the strategy. We've worked with governments right across the UK, but he is right to highlight the shocking and highlight the shocking and appalling legacy of years of SNP failure. That is why it is time for a new direction for Scotland, with

18:50

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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a new direction for Scotland, with Anas Sarwar and Scottish Labour. >> Paul Waugh Madam Deputy Speaker.

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When I visited the Sacred Heart Roman Catholic Primary School recently, I asked the children in the Assembly to put up their hand if they had two or more brothers and sisters. Madam Deputy Speaker, a forest of hands went up. Does the. Does the Secretary of State agree with me that those kids among the 5000 kids in Rochdale benefit from 5000 kids in Rochdale benefit from a Labour government very directly?

18:50

Paul Waugh MP (Rochdale, Labour )

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Yeah. that he has done over many years to champion the life chances of children and to tackle these issues of child poverty. No child should suffer the consequences or the punishment of the two child limit for decisions that were taken for decisions that were taken beyond their control. And I am pleased that those families in his constituency and at Sacred Heart constituency and at Sacred Heart Primary will see a big difference to their life chances, thanks to this Labour government.

18:51

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Jonathan Davies. Deputy Speaker. When I was growing up in the 90s and noughties, I'd never heard of a food bank. That was something that simply didn't exist. And now there are over 3000 in the country, including hope for Belper in my own constituency. So does my right hon. Friend agree with me that when the Conservatives talk about cutting £47 billion from public expenditure, that will hit public expenditure, that will hit the poorest worst, and can I also urge you to work at pace on the curriculum review? Because one of the best levers we have to get people out of poverty is ensure that they've got the skills and resilience to succeed in the world of work.

of work.

18:51

Jonathan Davies MP (Mid Derbyshire, Labour)

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Yes, I give my hon. Friend that commitment in paying tribute to the amazing people who volunteer in our food banks, in our community groups, our churches, and in community organisations right across the country. I would just say that I look forward to the day. Whereas a Labour MP, I do not visit a new food bank to open it. I visit a food bank to open it. I visit a food bank to close it down.

18:52

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Andrew Cooper. her leadership and for all of.

18:52

Andrew Cooper MP (Mid Cheshire, Labour)

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Her. poverty increased under the last government, and that it shifted so heavily towards children in a working family, ought to be a source of shame for them, if they were here to even hear it. And on behalf of the 2430 children in Mid Cheshire who will benefit from lifting the two child cap, can I thank her for having the courage to pull that particular lever and make a huge and immediate difference to them in their future? Madam Deputy Speaker, 174,000 children living in temporary accommodation.

Can she say more about how the forthcoming homelessness strategy will ensure that no child is accommodated in a bed and breakfast for longer than six weeks?

18:52

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Yes. >> Madam Deputy Speaker, yes, and we know that a stay in temporary accommodation is linked to worse outcomes for children's health, for that, for their education and for that, for their education and for their futures. We will introduce a temporary accommodation notification system requiring local notification system requiring local housing authorities to notify educational institutions, health visitors and GP GPS when a child is placed in temporary accommodation to make sure families are getting the support that they need. But of course, we need to go further in bringing down the numbers of people living in temporary accommodation.

We've made progress. There is more to do and the homelessness strategy will follow shortly.

18:53

Josh Fenton-Glynn MP (Calder Valley, Labour)

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Saving the best for last Josh Fenton-Glynn. >> Thank you, Madam. >> Deputy Speaker. >> From loss of earnings to poor health outcomes in 2023, Child health outcomes in 2023, Child Poverty Action Group estimated that had child poverty continued to rise had child poverty continued to rise as it was, it would have cost the economy 40 billion by 2027. I am proud that not only have we stopped that rise, but we will see 550,000 fewer children in poverty by 2030. Giving young people better futures.

Can the Minister assure me that we will continue to invest in wiping out the root causes of poverty, not just invest in cleaning up the mess that it leaves? Thank you.

18:53

Rt Hon Bridget Phillipson MP, The Secretary of State for Education (Houghton and Sunderland South, Labour)

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Yes, Madam Deputy Speaker, we will address the short term challenges that we face, but we will also address the long term structural challenges that have led us into the situation where so many children see their life chances blighted by avoidable poverty. We blighted by avoidable poverty. We are investing in the future of our children now, some people say, and the party opposite say, that we cannot afford to act, but we must act now. The consequences, the cost to our society are just too great.

18:54

Kirsty Blackman MP (Aberdeen North, Scottish National Party)

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That is the that is the end of the statement on Child poverty strategy. Point of order. Thank you, strategy. Point of order. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. During the statement, I asked about the evaluation measures that would be used. The Secretary of State used. The Secretary of State responded and said I had not welcomed the removal of the two child cap. In fact, I did child cap. In fact, I did explicitly and at length during my speech on the 27th of November in response to the Budget.

Madam Deputy Speaker, can you advise which ways I can get my question answered on how the child poverty strategy will be evaluated, rather than statements being made about stuff that I did not say that I did actually say. As an experienced Member of Parliament, the hon. Member will know that she can seek advice from the speakers and the clerk's office. She has no doubt got her point on the record. But

18:55

Ms Nusrat Ghani MP (Sussex Weald, Conservative)

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that is not a point of order. But she's got her points, most definitely on the record. I will definitely on the record. I will allow the front benchers a few allow the front benchers a few moments to shuffle over. I proceed moments to shuffle over. I proceed to read the orders of the day. consideration.

18:55

Consideration of Lords message: Consideration of Lords Message to the Employment Rights Bill

Of Lords. >> Before we move to consideration of the Lords message, I can confirm that nothing in the Lords message engages Commons financial privilege. We will begin with the government's motion to insist on disagreement with the Lords in their amendment one B, but propose amendment A and B in lieu with which it will be convenient to consider all other motions as on the selection and grouping paper. I call the Minister to move the motion. Minister.

18:56

Kate Dearden MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Halifax, Labour )

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19:11

Andrew Griffith MP (Arundel and South Downs, Conservative)

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I thank the hon. Member for giving way. Will he actually acknowledge that employment under this Labour government is higher than it was under the last conservative government, with an average age of 75%? And will he therefore apologise for his

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comments? Andrew Griffith well, under the conservative government, we improved. We improved the number of improved. We improved the number of people in work. Unemployment fell, unemployment fell to a record level since this government's taken office. Every single month office. Every single month unemployment has been higher. Half of those jobs that have been lost are the belong to the under 25 are the belong to the under 25 youth unemployment. Does anyone want to talk about what the youth unemployment rate is? 15%.

Now under this government and the number of young people who are not in education, employment or training has gone up by 25,000 on their watch before the impact of this disastrous bill. So the government claims to support workers, but their first legislative achievement will be to make more young people unemployed. How is that something that any member of this House could possibly support? So who is this bill really for? Well, the clue, as I've said before, is in the text itself.

It mentions maternity rights just three times. But the word union and no one has declared their interest on that side, madam Deputy Speaker. It mentions the word Union 478 times, the Union right to roam, scrapping the turnout threshold on union strike ballots. More paid time off for union reps, automatic deduction of union political funds, ordering businesses to hand out government written pro-union propaganda strikes will become far more common. But don't take don't take my word for it. Don't take.

Don't take my word for it. Well, that the Secretary of State is chuntering from a sedentary position, but perhaps he'd like to listen to his colleague, the health secretary, who just last week said he'd had it with the unions. The last thing that patients need this winter is strike action. Back in July, the back in July, the health secretary was citing the silent majority of doctors who didn't vote for strike action. My colleagues in the other place merely request that a strike ballot requires the turnout of 50% of the workforce by rejecting this amendment.

The Minister is allowing minorities to shut down hospitals, educational establishments and public transport. Whilst the silent majority of members are ignored. We should take a moment. Madam Deputy Speaker, to welcome the fact that the government has U-turned on Day one rights. After months of relentlessly campaigning and a complete clear-out of departmental Ministers. The government finally listened and there is no shame in that. I told them it was unworkable. Business told them it was unworkable. It's just a shame it took so long.

Just hours before the U-turn, the Prime Minister's official spokesman was telling journalists that they would overturn all attempts to water down day one rights. A Prime Minister without a backbone who doesn't know his own mind, causing a year of uncertainty for employers and

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workers alike. But let's keep that but happily talk about the Prime Minister's lack of backbone. To speaks of.

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To speaks of. Uncertainty for workers. I just. Generally point. Out to him that conservative Ministers promised more than 20 Ministers promised more than 20 times to deliver an employment bill, and having broken their promise to working people in this country, working people in this country, maybe, maybe wants to talk a bit more about that and talk about the constituents that he speaks to who constituents that he speaks to who are insecure work that his government did nothing about.

While this government acts.

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Well, if if acting, I just say respectfully to the hon. Member, if respectfully to the hon. Member, if acting is to raise unemployment to cost young people their jobs, and make sure that employers are not make sure that employers are not hiring, and that we've got the worst graduate market for a generation, then bring that on. If generation, then bring that on. If that's what he came here to do, then I'm surprised at that. But let's keep this U-turn in let's keep this U-turn in perspective.

It removes just one paragraph on just one page. Madam Deputy Speaker, instead of a 330 page bad bill, it's now a 329 page bad bill instead of the chainsaw that was needed. The government has wielded a pair of toddler safety scissors. And there's more. The removal of long accepted caps on awards that can be made by employment tribunals inserted with no impact assessment, no prior consultation and the most last minute of last minute additions. Completely irregular, disrespectful to this House and to the other place.

It will be ruinously expensive for small businesses and in the public sector. It will leave the taxpayer on the hook for huge payouts for managers failures at the expense of front line services. The Independent Growth Commission reports today that that could be an additional 15 billion to the economy alone. I look forward to seeing what the OBR next thinks of that when they downgrade productivity. The employment tribunal, as the Minister said, is already two years long in backlog. This will make it a whole lot worse.

Employers are all too familiar with being held to ransom by spurious claims. If you thought one woman's £50,000 payout after being compared in the workplace to Darth Vader was expensive, just wait until the Chancellor finds out what her colleagues have been saying about her. Dan Pollard, a partner at law firm Charles Russell and Speechley, said this development is frankly bonkers. The change would undoubtedly make the UK a significantly less attractive place to base staff within Europe. The measures in this job killing bill have been written with absolutely no understanding of how business actually works.

So as well as voting against the motion that moves to Infinite Employment Tribunal payouts will be voting today in favour of flexible hours in favour of seasonal work against removing the turnout threshold on strike ballots and against a subscription track for workers on union political funds that none of the members opposite would accept in any other private sector domain. Madam Deputy Speaker, this legislation is nothing less than a charter for national decline. It is a back to the 1970s bill which will do precisely that.

It sacrifices the job prospects of our children and grandchildren just to help rattle the donation tin with their union paymasters. The government's U-turned once admitting that their day one fantasy was a disaster. But changing one measure does not salvage this devastating bill. The Minister must know the damage she is doing to business and the economy. The Secretary of State must stop bowing to the left on his own benches. Start listening to the job creators who provide the jobs we need, and shelve this unemployment bill today.

19:18

Rt Hon Angela Rayner MP (Ashton-under-Lyne, Labour)

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Angela Rayner. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and the shadow Secretary of State. Of course, I declare an interest as Of course, I declare an interest as a trade union member. And like millions of people who have been wanting this bill for many years, wanting this bill for many years, and as my hon. Friend said, the Conservatives failed to deliver after promise, after promise. I'm really pleased that we've got to this point now and frustrated by the delay that we've had. So I welcome what my hon.

Friend the Minister and her contribution, and the Secretary of State for getting us this far, and hopefully those on the opposite benches will no longer frustrate what was a key manifesto pledge from us. And we've seen the decline, and you can tell which side the shadow Secretary of State is on. It's very clear. We've been really clear. We're pro-business and pro-worker and there's many, many good businesses here in the UK who welcome this bill and recognise the importance of giving people job security and fairness at work.

If you're on a zero hour contract, you cannot plan for the future. You do not know what's going to happen from one week to the next. That's not fair and reasonable for many workers here in the UK. And I say to the shadow Secretary of State, I met more businesses that absolutely understand that there has to be a fair balance. And I think we've struck the right deal here. And I welcome that. The changes that have been brought forward, especially in particular with the timescales, of course, the original deadline was October 27th because of the complexities with the changes that have been welcomed with the trade unions and with business, we can now bring that forward.

So instead of frustrating these measures, people can have those rights that they absolutely deserve and what they've needed. And in this context, for government amendment 20, F, A and B, reducing the qualifying period for workers to gain protection from unfair dismissal for six months. I know Ministers had faced difficult decisions and difficult discussions with employers and worker representatives, but I know how strongly, I strongly believe that the work that has been done has been necessary and we should be able to move forward now.

And I thank the Minister for her work on that, on that as well. And for those in the other place, Madam Deputy Speaker, I say there is now no more time to waste. Vested interests worked with the Tories and the Lib Dems, and cheered on by reform and backed by the Greens, to resist the manifesto on which we were elected. And now there can be no excuses. We have a mandate for a new deal for working people, and we must, and we will deliver it.

That includes replacing exploitative zero hour contracts with an offer of guaranteed hours for low paid workers. Madam Deputy Speaker, the security of knowing what they earn is not just a nice to have, it's the basis on which they can plan their lives. And I know the Minister will have them foremost in her mind when considering the low hours, threshold and definition of regular work. These rights will not just operate on paper, but in practice too. That's why we need robust fines for employers who illegally deny unions the opportunity to meet with workers or lawfully seek recognition.

We must ensure that they cannot simply defy the law and shrug off a paltry fine. Madam Deputy Speaker, it has been a battle to pass this bill, but progress is always a struggle that we fought for. Its passage will be a historic achievement for this Labour government. It will benefit working people now and into the future. Now is not the time to blink or buckle. Let's not waste a

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minute more. It's time to deliver. For Liberal Democrat spokesperson Sarah Olney. Yes.

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Yes. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, it's a pleasure to follow the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne. As this bill progressed through Parliament, the Liberal Democrats have welcomed many of the principles underpinning many of the principles underpinning this legislation and we are keen to see this bill progress. We've welcomed the fact that the Bill increases support for carers, that

19:22

Sarah Olney MP (Richmond Park, Liberal Democrat)

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19:34

Justin Madders MP (Ellesmere Port and Bromborough, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam. >> Declare my register of financial interests a donation from Usdaw trade union? Also my membership of the GMB and unite trade unions also declare an interest. As someone who represented working people. Before I came into this place, as someone I came into this place, as someone who really wants to see this bill come into law. I also declare an interest of someone who wants to see my constituents get some decent protections at work after so long, so this has to be it.

Madam Deputy Speaker, this has to be the line in the sand. This bill was introduced over a year ago, and the delays have been so long now in the Lords for nine months that even are very modest. SSP proposals are at risk of being delayed. So the message has to be this is enough to the Lords. This is a clear manifesto commitment, and it pains me that we have had to jettison one of those to get this over the line. But I understand why this had to happen, and I commend the Minister for finding a way through this, because this really matters to my constituents.

I think what she said about employment tribunals is really important as well. There's an awful lot more work we need to do there to make sure that people do enjoy real justice. But the Lords cannot keep coming back because they don't like what is in this bill, because this is a promise that we made to the British people, and we have to deliver on it. We have to let democracy win. If the Lords block it again, let them explain to the 7 million people who will benefit from day one SSP rights that they still have to go into work when the rule, because they can't get them, because the bill's been delayed? Let them explain to the five denied day one rights to paternity leave.

If he has a child after April, that he can't do that because the Lords have blocked it again, and let them explain why we can't have a Fair Work Agency, which is something even the Tories used to promise. There's something that they needed to deliver as well. So let's meet every day until Christmas. Madam Deputy Speaker, the Lords blocked this again. Let's keep going back. Let's show some steel. Let's show that we're not going to let this bill lie in the sand for too much longer.

And the Lords complained about having to work extra hours.

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Let's advise them to join a trade union if they. Want issues. I'm not quoting. I will.

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I will. Johanna Baxter I thank. The hon. Member for giving way. Does he agree with me that this bill is the.

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bill is the. Foundation for good industrial relations in this country, and the relations in this country, and the best uplift to workers rights in a generation? And therefore, does he agree with me that it's surprising that not a single member of the Scottish Nationalist Party. To

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debate workers rights in this country? Justin Madders. Well, we can always have a dig at the SNP, but I think the real enemies here have been the Greens and Liberal Democrats, the Tories, the reform members who voted the reform members who voted against this consistently. They're the ones who made us get to this point and I just have to pick up. I'm not going to I'm not going to give way anymore because we haven't got much time. But I want to pick got much time.

But I want to pick up on what the Liberal Democrat spokesperson said about the compensation. I accept what the Minister said at the despatch box, and I hope that when she checks back, she will be able to instruct her Lords that this was actually part of the deal and the Lord should not block this any longer. I think it's also telling that she's only spoken to businesses, not trade unions, about what was agreed. I think that shows which side they are on, and it has to be pointed out that unfair dismissal compensation limits are or are not actually operated, that often most people's claims are much lower than that.

And it is about people who have been unfairly dismissed. Most people who would benefit from this tend to be people who are much older, workers, who haven't got any employability in the job market. Sadly, that's who the people are really going to benefit from. A uplift and compensation, not not bad water bottles because you still have to be unfairly dismissed. And I suspect many of them would struggle to show that they had been treated unfairly. So let's make. Sure that we do get this delivered.

Now, let's make sure that we maintain vigilance across the whole agenda. And that means on access, proper, meaningful access, not stuck in a shed somewhere far away from where workers are, with serious fines linked to turnover. For those who don't play by the rules, it means on fire and rehire, no loopholes, proper deterrents to companies think it's just not worth even going there. We don't want to see those scenes repeated anywhere. And it also means holding firm on some of the nonsense that we're still hearing today about zero hours contracts.

People seem to be able to have a problem with fixed term contracts, zero hours contracts being completely different things, but there's been a lot of conflation there, I'm sad to say. But also this is important to note. It's about what comes next, because the make work pay agenda isn't just this bill. Let's get this bill over the line, let's get it delivered. Let's get all the important regulations implemented. But there are so many other important things that we need to tackle in our workplace, in this country, in particular, bogus self-employment that is going well beyond the gig economy.

It is, in fact, an epidemic. Madam Deputy Speaker, it is so important that we tackle that it will level the playing field, allowing employers to compete fairly. It will create great more security at work. And of course, it actually might lead us to have a greater tax rate if people are actually employed on proper terms and conditions further down the line. We've got to tackle unfair dismissal law. It's half a century old now that desperately needs updating as well, but that's for another day.

We have debated this bill over over a year now. It is about time the Lords accepted the democratic mandate that we have got to deliver this bill. So let's get it over the line and let's get

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delivering for working people in this country. Antonia Bance Madam Deputy Speaker, and I wish to draw Speaker, and I wish to draw attention to my register of members interests, my membership of unite, and the support of Aslef and the and the support of Aslef and the GMB for my election campaign. This Employment Rights Bill is our promise to working people on its promise to working people on its way to being fulfilled. Thanks in no small part to my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashton under

19:40

Antonia Bance MP (Tipton and Wednesbury, Labour)

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Friend the Member for Ashton under Lyne and the person who spoke before me, my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Bromborough today. I'm so glad to see Ministers put forward their amendments reflecting the constructive negotiations between themselves. Unions, including my former employers at the TUC and business associations, because that is how we roll in the labour movement. We get round the table, we talk, we come to a deal and we move forward. That's the right way to do things.

When people don't agree. Let's be clear, unions negotiated this deal with my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax, and it has my support today. I won't let the best be the enemy of the good, cutting the qualifying period for unfair dismissal from two years to six months will benefit 6.35 million workers, disproportionately young workers, ethnic minority workers and an astonishing 36% of hospitality workers. New figures, based on government data produced today to tell us about the impact this bill is going to have, removing the cap on unfair dismissal compensation means workers will be able to get what they deserve, and bad bosses can't price in the cost of ignoring the law.

The timing. I was so glad to hear the clarity on the timing today from my hon. Friend as well. To be clear, our opinions haven't changed. Our our opinions on the principle haven't changed. What is needed now is practicality to make sure the bill moves forward. As we move it forward, make sure you notice who's opposed. I would expect nothing less if the Tories. I would expect the Lib Dems to remember their total opposition to the Trade Union Act in 2016, including their opposition to changes to the political fund rules and their opposition at that time, but apparently no longer to the ballot thresholds, the undemocratic ballot thresholds that create a higher bar for trade unions than anyone else in society.

And I would gently remind their spokesperson that Right to Request worked so well for flexible working, that flexible working doesn't work, and we're having to fix it with this bill. And yet she proposes to bring in an unworkable right to request, instead of a guaranteed right to a decent hours contracts. I'll take no lectures from the Greens. What a shame they're not here. I'll take no lectures from the Greens, letting their peers vote whichever way they want on something this important.

And as for reform UK pretending to be the representatives of working class people, but voting against their interests at every turn. So I say to the other place, it is time to pass this bill to make work, pay to deliver the rights that were promised and voted for in our manifesto. The rights that millions have waited far too long to see.

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Thank you very much, Andy McDonald. Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Madam Deputy Speaker. And I draw hon. Members attention to my entry in the Register of Members Financial Interests in relation to support and Trade unions, for which I am and Trade unions, for which I am proud. I agree with the right hon. Member from Ashton-under-Lyne. This Member from Ashton-under-Lyne. This is a transformational piece of legislation, but it's been weakened,

19:44

Andy McDonald MP (Middlesbrough and Thornaby East, Labour)

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19:55

Kate Dearden MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Halifax, Labour )

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Order, order under the programme order 15th of September, and now must put the questions necessary to bring to a conclusion proceeding on the Lord's message. The question is that the House insists on its disagreement with the Lords in their amendment one B, but proposes amendments A and B in lieu. As many of their peers say aye. the contrary. No.

19:55

Division

20:58

Points of Order

apologise. >> Can I thank the hon. Member for

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Can I thank the hon. Member for having corrected the record and put

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his interest on the record? Planning and Infrastructure Bill consideration of. Lords message.

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Now. Before we move to consideration

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Before we move to consideration of the Lords message, I can confirm that nothing in the Lords message engages Commons financial privilege. We now come to the government motion relating to Lords Amendment motion.

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Okay. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I beg to move that this House does not insist on its

20:59

Consideration of Lords message: Consideration of Lords Message to the Planning and Infrastructure Bill.

House does not insist on its disagreement to Laws amendment 33, but instead proposes an amendment to the said Lords amendment. Madam to the said Lords amendment. Madam Deputy Speaker, today is a pivotal day because, subject to agreement from this House and in due course, the other place on a single the other place on a single remaining issue, the government's landmark Planning and Infrastructure Bill will have completed all its stages and will completed all its stages and will therefore shortly become law. That moment will be a hugely significant one for our economy, because this legislation will facilitate a step change in the delivery of the new homes and critical infrastructure our country so desperately requires.

Let me briefly remind the House once again why this bill is so important when it comes to house building and the provision of major economic infrastructure. The status quo has demonstrably failed. The

20:59

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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process of securing consent for nationally significant infrastructure projects is far too slow and uncertain, and is constraining economic growth and undermining our energy security. The current approach to development The current approach to development and the environment too often sees both sustainable house building and nature recovery stall in exercising essential local democratic oversight. Planning committees clearly do not operate as clearly do not operate as effectively as they could, and local planning authorities do not have adequate funding to deliver their services. The compulsory purchase order process is patently too slow and cumbersome, and development corporations are not equipped to operate in the way we will need them to in the years ahead, and its Madam Deputy Speaker that the lack of effective mechanisms for cross boundary strategic planning mean that we cannot address development and infrastructure needs across subregions as well as we otherwise.

Why we can and we must do things differently and this bill will enable us to do so. That is why we have been so determined to ensure we can make use of its provisions as soon as possible, and why I am delighted that, following today's debate, it is expected to return for a final time to the other place before becoming law. To that end, I hope Honourable and right hon. Members will now lend their support to amendment 33. A for I turn to the detail of that amendment, I'd like to put on record once again my profound thanks to Baroness Taylor for so ably guiding the Bill through its House of Lords stages, and for undertaking such broad and extensive engagement with peers throughout its passage.

Madam Deputy Speaker, Lords Amendment 33 seeks to make the first set of regulations for the national scheme of delegation, subject to the affirmative procedure. The government's amendment 33 seeks to give effect to this change. As you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, in the debate on consideration of Lords amendments on the 13th of November, I argue that the affirmative procedure in this instance was unnecessary in light of the multiple rounds of consultation that would take place before the relevant regulations were laid. However, I acknowledge the strength of feeling in the other place on this matter, and we therefore tabled an amendment to give effect to the intention of Lords Amendment 33, ensuring that the first set of regulations for the National Scheme of Delegation are subject to the affirmative procedure.

I thank Lord Lindsay for his engagement on this issue, and the Member for Taunton and Wellington for his contributions to previous debates on these regulations. Madam Deputy Speaker amendment 33 a simply removes the unnecessary provisions in Lords Amendment 33, in respect of future regulations for which there are already powers in the Town and Country Planning Act 1990, set alongside the existing safeguards built into the legislation, including a duty on the Secretary of State to consult on the draft regulations before they come into effect.

I hope the House will agree that amendment 33 will ensure that an appropriate amount of parliamentary scrutiny and engagement is able to take place on these provisions ahead of implementation. Madam Deputy Speaker, I therefore urge the House to support Government Amendment 33, and I look forward to receiving the

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support of members. I beg to move. The question is that this House does not insist on its disagreement

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does not insist on its disagreement to Lords Amendment 33, but proposes amendment A to the Lords Amendment. Gareth Bacon GEMA.

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Gareth Bacon GEMA. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It's been a. It is a privilege to present some of the opposition's present some of the opposition's final words on what I'm sure the Minister will agree has been an extensive effort on both sides of extensive effort on both sides of the House to debate, scrutinise and amend this Bill. And in that light, I particularly wish to thank the efforts of my hon. Friend the Member for Hamble Valley, who has worked tirelessly to push the government to make this bill fit

21:03

Gareth Bacon MP (Orpington, Conservative)

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for purpose. My hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner, who has throughout the whole process made invaluable whole process made invaluable contributions in this place and in committee. I'd also like to congratulate the Minister on seeing the Planning and Infrastructure Bill through its parliamentary journey. Although I am hesitant to pour too much praise on many of the pour too much praise on many of the aspects, bills, aspects of the Bill itself. When we last came to this House to consider the Lords message House to consider the Lords message a couple of weeks ago, my hon.

Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner outlined the opposition's key concerns regarding this bill, not least that it fails to satisfy the three tests that we have consistently used to judge how this bill could help to unlock the housing market, make the necessary reforms to administrative and bureaucratic burdens, and create a dual incentive for communities and developers to embrace more homes and infrastructure, as it will now be abundantly clear to the Minister, it is the continued position of His Majesty's Opposition that the Bill fails on all three counts.

His boss, the Secretary of State, knows this, having admitted today that the government will need a sharp increase to their current run rate to meet the 1.5 million homes target they promised in their manifesto a target that, according to his department's own figures, they are currently missing by a long way. Some improvements to the bill have been made during the parliamentary process, and this includes the government's concession on Lords Amendment 33, which we are discussing today. We are grateful for the movement the government have made on this, and we will not seek to divide the House upon it this evening.

I will

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give way to the honourable. Just very quickly, and everybody recognises the importance of 1.5 recognises the importance of 1.5 million houses being built. The need for social housing for many, many people, the need for houses that people can afford through a that people can afford through a mortgage. But does he feel to move forward in a correct way? There must be community integration and community discussion in relation to ensure the community integration can take place. If it comes to building houses. How will affect building houses.

How will affect people? Who comes to infrastructure? How that will affect the local farm and land owners as well? Does he feel that has been achieved within

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this legislation coming before us tonight? Gareth Bacon. I thank the hon. Gentleman for

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I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. No, I don't not not fully would be my answer. I'm not fully would be my answer. I'm going to come on to that in more detail in a couple of moments. Now, a prime example of what more could a prime example of what more could have been done during this bill is to address the democratic deficit this bill creates, which strips powers away from elected councillors and gives them to unelected planning officers, as well as more powers to the Secretary of State.

Now, this, of course, is just the tip of the iceberg. When we consider the clear contempt shown for local democracy. As the government prepares to cancel yet another round of local elections, the bill also fails to support both those building and buying homes. No amount of centralisation in the bill will counter the Chancellor's failure to meaningfully support growth and cut costs. This is despite clear warnings from the Home Builders Federation that the government must provide help for first time buyers and reduce taxes on new homes in order to achieve anything close to the tally predicted in March of this year by the OBR of 1.3 million homes by the end of the decade, and on nature, something that I know many MPs have received emails about, the bill still lacks the clarity and the answers that nature lovers seek to legitimate, legitimate questions about reconciling the delivery of new homes and infrastructure with the need to protecting our natural environment.

Madam Deputy Speaker, this is most evident when we consider the government's focus on removing legal protections on green belt land. Ripping up the green belt is not the answer, which is why my colleagues and I have called for swifter redevelopment on brownfield sites. This is not least because, according to the CPRE, in a substantial number of local authorities, there is enough brownfield land with planning permission to meet the targets set by the government's standard method for calculating housing need for at least the next five years, something the bill and this government have failed to explore across two Secretaries of State, several junior Ministers and almost a year of parliamentary time.

The government have pushed these measures through using their majority but without using their common sense. Many of the provisions in this bill still leave the market. Home buyers, developers and local communities all wanting the triple blow of a Chancellor running our economy into the ground, hiking taxes and a government cutting demand side policies to support first time buyers has left the country without a clear pathway to the lofty promise of 1.5 million homes. And don't just take my word for it.

Throughout this process, the OBR, the House Builders Federation, the National Federation of Builders Britain, remade the Countryside Alliance, Professor Paul Cheshire, the RSPB and many more industry experts and organisations have all raised concerns either about this bill or about the government's ability to meet its housing target. More widely. The government had the chance to fix this bill to support infrastructure projects, back community voices and deliver the homes that British people need. But it hasn't done so. The housing Minister recently declined to rule out a further planning legislation in this parliament.

Madam Deputy Speaker, if that comes to pass, let's hope that next time he and his colleagues listen to industry, the voices in this House and to our local communities, and do what he knows to be right.

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Chris Hinchliff Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm not certain whether I or the Minister will be more relieved at the conclusion of debates on this legislation. I want to welcome the fact the Minister is bringing forward an amendment to the remaining proposal from the Other place. I support the government on amendment 33 a and welcome the additional parliamentary scrutiny that it brings. This legislation is once brings. This legislation is once again in a better place than the last time it came in front of us.

And I welcome the fact that

21:09

Chris Hinchliff MP (North East Hertfordshire, Labour)

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Ministers have committed to environmental delivery plans being initially focussed on nutrient neutrality, and that further will be preceded by a statement in this House presenting the evidence for House presenting the evidence for them. And I just want to reflect briefly, Madam Deputy Speaker, on some further evidence that has come some further evidence that has come before us since the last debate we had on this piece of legislation. had on this piece of legislation. DEFRA has published evidence of an assessment of England's biodiversity, which found substantially more indicators of our nature in decline than are going in the right direction.

My select committee, the Environmental Audit Committee, published its inquiry into planning and housing, which called for an end to lazy narratives and scapegoating of nature, and new polling has found that more than two thirds of voters think politicians are out of touch with the public's values or nature. We are still a long way from a planning system that delivers genuinely affordable homes, social justice, values democracy and reverses the decline of England's nature. I hope with the conclusion of this bill, we can move forward to some more positive progress.

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Gideon Amos. Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker. When the bill was presented to the House, we bill was presented to the House, we outlined three main concerns, which were the accountability to Parliament, the accountability to communities and accountability for communities and accountability for our environment. This amendment 33 addresses, to an extent the issue addresses, to an extent the issue of accountability to local communities and the importance of their role in planning. But it their role in planning. But it doesn't go as far as we would like, and we are disappointed with the thrust of the legislation, which is to take powers away from planning committees to the Secretary of State.

And we continue to oppose that measure, but welcome the

21:11

Gideon Amos MP (Taunton and Wellington, Liberal Democrat)

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measure of compromise that the government has brought forward in amendment 33, which gives amendment 33, which gives Parliament, some say, over those regulations. So we'll not be opposing that. Planning committee's, opposing that. Planning committee's, Madam Deputy Speaker, are important to all the key aspects of planning. They're important to national policy statements, the biggest policy statements, the biggest projects in the country. And I recognise the Minister has reached agreement with the chairs of the agreement with the chairs of the select committees on how national policy statements will be drafted.

Planning committees are important to also to nature. It is local people who know their natural environment, their local environment best and are best placed to understand it and to make decisions on it. So amendment 33 is particularly important because of that. An example is of course, our chalk streams. And we're especially disappointed that the conservative benches didn't support our efforts and amendments to get statutory protection for chalk streams into this bill, and urge the Minister, when he hopefully follows up on his commitment to make sure that chalk streams appear in the National Planning Policy Framework, that they appear in the glossary as an irreplaceable habitat, it's really important that it's established.

They are established as an irreplaceable habitat. The UK has 85% of the world's unique chalk streams in the United Kingdom, and a vitally important habitat that we must we must, must protect local communities, as I say, know their environments best and their best placed to help deliver on the delivery plans as well. And we are concerned that the environmental delivery plans are being given to Natural England, which will act as decision maker, fee taker and judge, jury and execution, and without a role necessarily for some of the small companies, like the ones in my constituency who have been delivering phosphate credits successfully and enabling development to go forward.

And I hope the Minister and the government will enable a continuing role for small and medium sized enterprises in this field. It's vitally important it is not left to the the monolith of Natural England just to deal with this, partly because Madam Deputy Speaker are not very good at it. In 2022, they committed to releasing 40,000 homes with phosphate credits in the first year of their activity. So far, they only delivered 4000 homes under that programme. So it is not not the most practical solution necessarily to assume Natural England will dig us out of this crisis.

Having said that, we want to work constructively with the government. We want environmental delivery plans to succeed, to deal with nutrient neutrality and phosphate pollution robustly. We want to see the pollution in the Somerset Levels and more. A special protection Area pollution dealt with. We want to see an EDP successfully tackle that, but it must be involving local communities, it must be involving local companies and businesses across the country, which are already doing really strong work in this field. Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, this bill is not the bill we would have brought forward.

We believe what's needed to build the homes the country needs is a massive public council and social home building programme. We've proposed 150,000 homes per year, and that should be the focus of delivery. Without watering down the planning process or the planning system, or removing the rights of communities, which this bill sadly does. But we will work constructively with the government on its implementation. We're pleased to have won through my friend, the noble Lady Baroness Parminter in the other place, who secured an amendment from the government on the mitigation hierarchy so that nature is placed at the top of the tree.

In these decisions. We welcome the changes to the bill so far, and we will not

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be seeking to divide the House on this amendment. Minister. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker,

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, with the leave of the House, I'll close what has been an extremely brief but nevertheless necessary brief but nevertheless necessary and important debate that has moved us another step closer to the bill becoming law. Can I thank all hon. becoming law. Can I thank all hon. Members who have spoken for their contributions, and I'll seek to, in the time I have available to me, respond to the points that are made in general terms, the concerns that have been expressed by the opposition Liberal Democrat spokesman throughout the passage of the bill, a well rehearsed.

I don't expect that I will convince them of the merits of the main principles of the bill. There's still time, still time for them to change their minds and recognise the benefits this bring. This bill will bring in terms of productivity, prosperity and economic growth across the

21:15

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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country. But I think this bill has been debated at length. And so on those general points, madam Deputy Speaker, I don't intend to comment Speaker, I don't intend to comment too widely. And there is, of course, only a single amendment in front of us. But I will make just a couple us. But I will make just a couple of comments on a couple of points that were raised. My hon. Friend, the Member for North East Hertfordshire referenced the Hertfordshire referenced the commitment we made in the other place.

He's absolutely right. On the 24th of November, during consideration of Commons reasons and amendments in the House of Lords, the government made clear that the first EDPs will address nutrient pollution only and that Ministers would return to the House once those first EDPs are in place to issue a statement on their progress. And only then, and at that point, would the Secretary of State be able to take forward any other EDPs on environmental issues I made. And I stand by the commitment I gave on chalk streams that they will be explicitly recognised in national planning policy.

The hon. Gentleman won't have to wait long to find out what that will entail, but I took on board the points that he made in respect of what he expects to see on chalk streams, on the specific point he made on the private sector, which is one that's well made. We recognise the important and increasing role that the private sector must play in supporting nature's recovery, including land managers, habitat banks and ecological consultancies. These businesses also play a crucial role in the planning system.

More generally, the bill has been drafted to enable delegation and partnership working with third parties. This may apply both to the development of EDPs, including ecological surveys and impact assessments, and in the undertaking and monitoring of conservation measures. EDP is obviously also represent an opportunity for growth in nature, service markets and revenue diversification for farming and land management businesses. I hope on that point he's somewhat reassured on the substantive issue before us. Madam Deputy Speaker, National Scheme of Delegation, we absolutely agree that planning is principally a local activity.

Decisions about what to build and where should be shaped by local communities and reflect the views of local residents. That's why the government is determined to ensure every part of the country has an up to date local plan, developed through significant resident engagement. And why? The government, of course, believes that planning committees have an integral role in providing local democratic oversight of planning decisions. But Madam Deputy Speaker, it's vital that in exercising that democratic oversight planning committees operate as effectively as possible, focusing on those applications which really warrant member input and not revisiting the same decisions, we have undertaken a technical consultation, as hon.

Members know, on that national scheme of delegation. We got a significant response. Nearly 600 responses to that consultation from local planning authorities and developers alike. Broad support was expressed for the tiered approach we've proposed, but we'll of course, in the drafting of the of the regulations to come, which we expect to lay in the spring, take into account all of that feedback. Those draft regulations, just to make clear once again, will be subject to public consultation and we'll respond to the consultation at the same time as we publish those draft regulations for consultation.

To conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker, this landmark piece of legislation will enable us to overturn a failing status quo that has hampered the delivery of new homes and critical infrastructure and thereby impeded progress towards greater prosperity and rising living standards. And I'm immensely proud of having developed the bill and taken it through Parliament. As I argued at Second Reading, 14 years of Tory failure left the country with a belief that nothing works, that nothing gets built, that Britain can no longer do big things.

As a government, we've refused to accept the stagnation and decline we were bequeathed. We were elected on a promise of change, and we're determined to deliver it. And through the measures introduced by this bill, we will get Britain building again. We will unleash economic growth and we will deliver on the promise of national renewal. Now, Deputy Speaker, it would be remiss of me to conclude my remarks without thanking those who have made a vital contribution to this Bill. I'd firstly like to express my gratitude to all honourable and right hon.

Members and peers in the other place who engage with the Bill throughout its passage. The expertise and insight that's been brought to bear in both houses has strengthened the Bill in a number of important respects. I also thank the shadow frontbenchers for the constructive way they approach the scrutiny in Bill committee and throughout all stages. I'd also like to thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne, for her unwavering support in the Bill's early stages and to my right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham and Croydon North for his firm support over recent months.

I'd also like to thank all stakeholders from a wide range of development industry experts and organisations, right through to NGOs who have engaged extensively with my department to shape the bill. And finally, I'd like to thank all of the talented officials in my department who've devoted considerable time and energy to this landmark piece of legislation. I particularly like to thank the Bill team, ably led first by Alex Bush and now by Holly Harper. Expert officials including Will Burgin, Alicia Ford, Guy Skelton and Andrew Shaw, and past and present members of my private office, including Jim Carroll, Grace Doody, Josh grey, Gabe Allison and Matt Davis for helping to deliver the bill in record time.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the imminent prospect of this bill receiving royal assent is obviously only a beginning. Once the bill becomes law, we need to implement its provisions in that regard. The House should be in no doubt that we intend to move quickly so that we can realise the full benefits of this legislation for productivity, prosperity and living standards across the whole of the UK, and I very much look forward to working with Honourable and right hon. Members as well as stakeholders, as we progress the Bill's implementation over the coming months.

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EVA the question is that this House does not insist on its disagreement to Lords Amendment 33, disagreement to Lords Amendment 33, but proposes amendment A to the Lords Amendment. As many as are of that opinion, say aye. of the that opinion, say aye. of the contrary. No, I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it. That it. The ayes have it. That concludes proceedings on the Planning and Infrastructure Bill

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Planning and Infrastructure Bill formally. Formally. The question is, as on the Order Paper, As many as are of that opinion, say aye. of the contrary. No, I think the ayes have it. The

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ayes have it. Duly a. Seat.

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Seat. Thank you. Sorry. Mental Health

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Thank you. Sorry. Mental Health Bill Lords consideration of Lords message. Now.

21:21

Consideration of Lords message: Consideration of Lords Message to the Mental Health Bill [Lords]

message. Now. >> Before we move to consideration of the Lords message, I can confirm that nothing in the Lords message that nothing in the Lords message engages Commons financial privilege. We now come to the government motion to agree with the Lords in their amendments 19 B and 19 C. Minister.

21:22

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I beg to move that this House do now agree with that this House do now agree with the Lords in their amendment 19 B and 19 C madam Deputy Speaker, it is a privilege to return the mental health bill to this House for what I hope will be the final time in its passage, thanks to the constructive and collaborative approach, both from hon. Members across this House and noble Lords. In the other place, we have been able to reach an amended and improved version of the Mental Health Bill so we can begin our vital work on the code of practice.

I would in particular like to pay tribute to my ministerial colleague, Baroness Mirren, for her outstanding work on this bill. The bill sits alongside the ten year plan, which sets out our ambitious reform agenda to transform the NHS and make it fit for the future. We know that there is much more to do to improve outcomes, to tackle unacceptable waiting times for care and fully meet the needs of the population in a tailored, personalised and timely way. We will overhaul the way that mental health support is delivered in England to drive down waits and improve the quality of care, backed by a whole of society, approach to preventing mental illness and to intervening.

Early last week, we announced the launch of an independent review into prevalence and support for mental health conditions, ADHD and autism. We are launching this review to understand the rises in prevalence and demand on services, to ensure people receive the right support at the right time and in the right place. People who need it will access high quality and compassionate mental health support at an earlier stage, and more people will recover or live well with mental illness. Madam Deputy Speaker, we will go further to improve the quality and transparency of care, working with experts and people with lived experience, we will publish a new modern service framework for severe mental illness, setting consistency in clinical standards across the country so that patients and families get the best quality, evidence based treatment and support.

I will.

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Madam Deputy Speaker, first of all, welcome what's coming forward. Just a point of clarification. It's Just a point of clarification. It's been brought to my attention. And just seek the Minister's advice and support on it in relation to support on it in relation to amendment 19, B, which relates to the appointment of a nominated person with no local authority, holds parental responsibility for the patient. It's in relation to the child. Does the Minister agree that through this, there must be that through this, there must be more emphasis on the voice of the child, and that the child should have some preference when it comes much.

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I thank the hon. Member for that intervention. And yes, absolutely, we do agree. And he'll see, as I we do agree. And he'll see, as I come into this in my comments, that we've got option three options around what happens in exactly the scenario that he takes. And that's been very much the spirit of the amendment that we've agreed with. amendment that we've agreed with. The other place. We will put patient feedback and outcomes front and centre by improving the and centre by improving the transparency of reporting across inpatient and community mental health services, we will introduce an early warning system so we can intervene earlier using patient and staff feedback and clinical information to identify services at risk of providing poor quality care.

This is alongside our commitments to roll out mental health support teams in schools and colleges to full national coverage by 2029, employ an extra 8500 mental health workers by the end of the parliament and pilot new 24 seven neighbourhood mental health centres across the country. Madam Deputy Speaker, This long awaited and transformational bill, once implemented, will give patients greater choice and autonomy, enhanced rights and support, and ensure everyone is treated with dignity and respect throughout their treatment. I will now briefly outline some of the commitments of my ministerial colleague, Baroness Mirren, made in the other place, in response to the amendment tabled by Baroness May, the government announced plans to launch a consultation on emergency police powers of detention.

The consultation will look in particular, but not limited to sections one, three, five and one three, six, as well as exploring joint working approaches across organisations, we have committed to working with stakeholders as we define the scope of the consultation. In the other place, the government tabled amendments in lieu regarding the appointment of a nominated person for a child under 16 who lacks competence. Following engagement with Baroness Berridge. The engagement. The amendment states that if no local authority has parental responsibility and approved mental health, professional or AMP must appoint either a person who has parental responsibility, a person named in a Child's arrangements order as a person with whom the relevant patient is to live, or a person who is a special guardian.

If there is no suitable person with parental responsibility willing to act, the AMP must consider the child's wishes and feelings when deciding who to appoint. This amendment clarifies who Amps should appoint as the nominated person and gives priority to those with parental responsibility. We intend to use the Code of Practice to outline what factors and nuances, and AMP should consider when making the appointment decision. If the AMP later discovers another of those within the list is more suitable to act as the nominated person, the legislation allows them to terminate the appointment of the nominated person and appoint the special guardian instead.

So I thank members across both sides of the House for their support for this bill, and look forward to hearing their contributions.

21:27

Dr Luke Evans MP (Hinckley and Bosworth, Conservative)

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The question is that this House agrees with the Lords in their amendments 19 B and 19 C, doctor Luke Evans. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I've talked about roads and and I've talked about roads and bridges since the duration of this bill, and we have come to the end of this long road that was, of course, started by Baroness May in 2018 with the independent Wessely report, which has been the foundation for how we have this piece of legislation in front of us.

And it's a cross-party, cross departmental look at how we can improve the lives of people with the most serious of mental health issues, and that's really important. I was pleased to hear the Minister as well start to talk about the difference between mental health and mental well-being. This is really fundamental when it comes to dealing with our policies and how we're going to take the country forward, because not everyone has a serious mental health problem, but everyone has problems with their mental wellbeing.

Making sure we have that distinction worked out is going to be truly important to make sure we get the right support for the right people in the right place, which at the end of the day, this is what that bill is dedicated for. I have also talked in this House about why it is so important. This bill, above all others, deals with the most vulnerable people in society, those who are seriously mentally unwell. And so I'm pleased that we're at this point, that we can take it forward and get it into a piece of legislation.

I'm also pleased to hear the Minister direct his comments towards the amendment from the other place, and the concerns raised by Baroness Berridge, and I understand the points he's tried to make in the clarifications the government has tried to put in place with regards to this amendment. It is for the reason that he's mentioned that he will look at the code of conduct for those seriously difficult positions that a mental health professional might find themselves in an evening dealing with a parent who's contesting with a child about who is going to be the nominated person.

I'm pleased that the government is looking at the code of practice, so we won't be dividing the House tonight. That being said, as with the ten year plan that the government has brought forward, there is a synergy here. And the synergy is this that this House agrees on both sides with the thrust of the ten year plan and also the mental health bill. But the problem we have here is there is no delivery chapter. That is the concern. It's a concern we have from this side when this government was taking it forward and now, as the Minister has conceded in committee, it will be a challenge.

But without that delivery plan it becomes very difficult. I will give way. I thank the hon. Member for giving way.

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Before I was elected. I ran mental health and Complex Needs services for five years, and so I services for five years, and so I saw a landscape that was pretty much devastated under the Conservatives, and one of the ways in which it was devastated was the in which it was devastated was the loss of Surestart. The Institute for Fiscal Studies produced a report this year which showed that surestart led to a reduction in surestart led to a reduction in hospitalisations for 12 to 14 year olds by 50%.

The shadow Minister is talking about the ways in which we talking about the ways in which we can deliver better mental health. Does he agree with me that Labour's rollout of a revamped Surestart is

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just one way of many in which we're helping to improve children's mental health? Yes.

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Yes. He makes a very good point. But he also has missed the point that one of the ways the government was dealing with this, which he's given dealing with this, which he's given me the opportunity to to come forward, was to bring forward the mental health investment standard, mental health investment standard, which meant that the proportion of spending on mental health had to mirror those in terms of physical mirror those in terms of physical conditions, and that was starting to see a real change.

Alas, under this government that has not been met, or that is at least the concern, and we know that the proportion of mental health spending has fallen under this government by its own written ministerial statement that it put out. And it's actually leads me nicely on to the point that I wanted to raise today, because this is the crux of the matter that people outside of this House will be looking at to say, how are we going to fund the models that are coming forward? So it is a question directly, and it's only one that I have in this debate, because we have raised this on this side of the House, both in the debates we have had on mental health, palliative care and mental health.

I have raised it with the Minister. Only last week we had the chair of this health Select Committee raised this question again and again. Is the government committed to the investment standard or not? Is this something they have dropped? I think the House and the wider public need to know this, so we can plan for service provision. If they are dropping it, that is on them and they need to be able to explain the reasons of why they're doing so. And maybe there's alternative investment, but as a starting point, as a starting point, that is going to be crucial to the delivery in terms of getting this mental health challenge dealt with that is growing despite the pandemic,

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despite all the investment that has already gone in. I will give way. hon. Member for giving way. I have written more mental health investment standard funding applications than I care to remember. And while investments are obviously important, one of the obviously important, one of the major challenges with that stream of funding was that it meant you had to do just that. You had to had to do just that. You had to apply on an annual basis. There weren't certainty around multi-year settlements, which meant that I was repeatedly setting up projects for repeatedly setting up projects for which I couldn't find the funding to keep them going, which actually created more disruptions in mental health support.

What we need is to have stable, continuous funding settlements which actually meet the need has been identified by the data and patient experience. And actually, I think that's what the government is doing. And to latch on to one particular funding stream and to claim that somehow this isn't being provided support for when actually there's a wider goal

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here of tackling mental health through different methods. Is order. The hon. Gentleman will know there's ample opportunity for him to contribute in the debate if he wishes. But that was a very, Evans.

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Evans. I'm grateful for the. Deputy Speaker for stepping in on that Speaker for stepping in on that basis, because we have had plenty of chance to debate this, both at committee and many times in many of committee and many times in many of the debates that I'm partial to with regards to what he said. And we could go through the whole idea of why the last government changed the interventions of NHS England, brought in ICBs to allow for that joined up structure to be put in place.

We're now seeing a new iteration coming forward, but yet again, we don't know how much it will cost to get rid of NHS England. We don't know the redundancy packages for the ICB and how much that is going to cost. This is fundamental. One thing we do know is that with the change in the investment standard, as the Royal College of Psychiatrists chair has said, that change alone is going to cost the sector £300 million. That is investment and change that could have made a difference to mental health provision.

So I don't want to get into the heated politics any further, and I don't want to delay the house any further this evening. But that position from the government on where the mental health investment standard is, is crucial when it comes to delivering this mental health bill. So I'd like to thank, in closing, the Minister for his constructive approach in the way in which he's taken ideas forward, the way he's looked through this in fine detail. I know he cares deeply about getting this right, as do many people in this house.

And that is the imperative to make sure we have compassionate, modern care delivered to those who need it most when it comes to dealing with those with mental health, serious mental health conditions.

21:34

Dr Danny Chambers MP (Winchester, Liberal Democrat)

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Liberal Democrat spokesperson Danny Chambers. Danny Chambers. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to begin by thanking colleagues across. >> This House for the constructive

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This House for the constructive way in which we've all contributed towards this long awaited bill and in the 40 years since this first came to the House, with attitudes to mental health and the treatments available have changed significantly. So these reforms and updates are very much needed and very much supported by everyone here. I'm turning specifically to clause 19 B we welcome this important addition. All children and young people are deserve appropriate care and support and undergoing treatment for mental health problems.

And that includes the safeguarding of a nominated person. Each and every child going through the system deserves to be properly represented by a responsible adult. So we're grateful for this amendment and we're pleased to lend our support. And while we understand that the remit of this bill is very much focussed on inpatient mental health care, we cannot ignore the wider context in which this bill needs to operate in, and even the best inpatient system is going to struggle if we fail to invest in the preventative and early intervention services that keep people well in the first place.

And the hon. Member opposite mentioned, you know, the difference between mental wellbeing and mental health issues and ensuring that we can protect people's mental wellbeing before they possibly go on to develop actual mental health issues. And if we're serious about preventing people from reaching crisis points, we need to ensure that the many community based initiatives that have been spoken about by the Minister and others in this House, they need to be strengthened. And that's why we're going to continue to champion work and mental health hubs.

Having a mental health professional in every school and MoD sort of mental health check ups at key points in an individual's lives. Madam Deputy Speaker, it's been an honour to contribute to this bill. I want to thank the Minister for his meaningful engagement with all colleagues across this House for what's been the best part of a of a year now. And and the one ask I'd make of him just tonight is to once again we consider, you know, restoring the the BESS suicide prevention grant because I keep meeting charities and organisations that have benefited from this.

And it's really important that we're supporting community organisations that can help identify when someone is reaching crisis point, because so many people who take their own lives are not in contact with NHS services. Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'll just pay tribute to all the frontline workers in mental health. That's clinical and community settings. We've got nurses, counsellors, psychiatrists, doctors, therapists, support staff, carers and charities and they prop up a system which is complicated. It's underfunded, it's challenging to work within and we want them to know that we do appreciate all their efforts that they make continually.

And the Liberal Democrats, we're going to keep pushing until mental health is given the same urgency and care and attention as physical health.

21:38

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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21:44

Petitions

present this petition. I am very pleased that I am not alone in this place in calling for reform of place in calling for reform of pornography legislation, as we have seen, an explosion in the availability of increasing graphic pornography. This content is often procured through coercion and is fuelling sexual violence and fuelling sexual violence and violence against women and girls. The petitioners from my Edinburgh North and Leith constituency, North and Leith constituency, therefore request that the House of Commons urge the government to extend safeguarding, apply to pornography offline, to pornography online and to legally require all pornography websites access from the UK to verify the age and permission of every individual featured on platforms, and give performers the right to withdraw their consent at any time to the continued publication of pornography in which they appear and the petitioners remain.

ET cetera.

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Hey. Petition tomography.

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Petition tomography. And violence against women.

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And violence against women.

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Thank you. Thank you.

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Thank you. Thank you. I beg to move this House. Do now adjourn. The question.

21:45

Rebecca Smith MP (South West Devon, Conservative)

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21:59

Josh MacAlister MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Whitehaven and Workington, Labour)

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Members of Parliament, I know she cares deeply about these issues and I welcome her bringing them to the attention of the House in this adjournment debate. I want to open my remarks with a word of special thanks to everybody who has stepped up in our country to adopt children. It is an extraordinary act that marks that makes a transformational difference for children and families. Right the way across this country. I recognise that self-employed adopters do not have access to statutory adoption pay.

I appreciate, too, that they do not qualify for statutory maternity pay or maternity allowance. I am pleased that the parental leave and pay review is looking. adjourn.

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The question is that this House do now adjourn. Minister. Thank you very much, Madam

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Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm pleased that the parental leave and pay review is looking at these issues as part is looking at these issues as part of their work, and I encourage members to engage actively with this review as it continues to be underway. The Department for Education's statutory guidance is clear that where self-employed adopters do not qualify for any statutory payment, local authorities can consider making a payment that is equivalent to the

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maternity allowance. Gladly give away. Lisa Smart very. Grateful to the ministry.

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Grateful to the ministry. Mentioned the review, but and he said that it's underway. He didn't mention how long it would take, and I note that the hon. Member asked for some guidance on timeline. I'd be grateful if he could give that, and further, if he could use his and further, if he could use his good offices to encourage local authorities to let potential self-employed adopters know that their discretionary funds exist

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their discretionary funds exist because, as the hon. Lady mentioned, most don't. Mr.

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I thank the hon. Member for the questions. I'll turn briefly in a moment to answer directly the moment to answer directly the questions that the hon. Member asked. But I do take the broader point about encouraging local authorities to make sure that adopters in their area are aware of the support that is available to the support that is available to them. As I was saying, local authorities can consider making a payment that is equivalent to the maternity allowance. This allows authorities to target adopters most in need of financial support.

Though I take the hon. Member's point made very powerfully on the inconsistency of that offer across England at the moment. To answer the hon. Member's questions directly, first of all, the parental leave review started in July of this year and it is expected to last 18 months, so we should be able to work back from there on when we expect its conclusions and publication. The review has a wide scope, but it is looking specifically at adoption support as part of that.

It is firmly within the scope of the review. And finally, I'll turn to broader adoption support, which the hon. Member asked me about as well. The Department for education does make wider support available for all adoptive families. This year, £50 million was made available to support adopters and adoptive families through the Adoption Special Guardianship Support Fund. I appreciate that the changes we made to the CSF in April this year have been very difficult for some families, and I have listened carefully to what families have told me about these changes.

I speak regularly to adopters and those working in the adoption system, and we will start a formal process of engagement on long term decisions in the new year. Details of the CSF from April 2026 will be made available once departmental business planning decisions are completed, and I am expecting this to come very soon. So far this year, we have approved applications to support over 14,000 families through the fund. We have also invested £8.8 million this year into Adoption England for services across the country.

Adoption England are doing a huge range of work to develop support for families through regional adoption agencies. For example, a new court offer of support for the first 12 to 18 months of a match between a child and a family. Fundamentally, though, stood back from adoption leave, the government is taking bold steps to transform the entire children's social care system. This is set out in our Families First Partnership programme, which we announced very recently. We were upping the funding for to take it to £2.4 billion over the next three years.

This change is fundamental to the whole system, because it will reset in a way that many members across this House have been arguing for for years. The system away from late stage crisis intervention towards earlier, more intensive support for families, and those are families of all shapes and sizes that should be the bedrock of the future children's social care system. And in parallel, the investment and changes that are going into the NHS to ensure that health services are able to respond to the mental health needs of families and children, particularly the most vulnerable, again, will act as a bedrock, though we do recognise there are special needs for support for those adoptive families.

To close my remarks. Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to thank again the hon. Member for their speech, for securing this debate and welcome their acknowledgement of the difference that adopters are making across the country. I also welcome the attention of the parental pay and leave review to this area of work, and I look forward to engaging with adopters and members from across this House, as well as stakeholders who work in the adoption system in the new Year, including my department's Adopter Reference group.

As we work to confirm the long term arrangements for adoption support.

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The question is that this House do now adjourn. As many as of that do now adjourn. As many as of that opinion, say aye. The ayes have it.

This debate has concluded

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