Devolution (Implications for England)

Debate between Sadiq Khan and Lord Hague of Richmond

Tuesday 16th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)]

I thank the Leader of the House for his statement. September’s referendum was momentous because of its fantastic turnout and the decisive way in which the Scottish people voted to stay in the United Kingdom, and also because of the way in which it unleashed a devolutionary vigour up and down the country. We are a party with an unequalled record on devolution, and this is a debate that Labour embraces and seeks to lead. We welcome Westminster further releasing its grip on the levers that run this country. I hope that, despite the Prime Minister’s 7 am jitters on the morning after the referendum, Members on both sides of the House will welcome the fact that, through the Smith commission, we are delivering on the vow to the Scottish people.

This is only the beginning of the change we need to make to the way the country is run. In England, cities and towns are demanding a greater say in the running of their affairs. Labour has responded to those demands and made a commitment to introducing an English devolution Act in our first Queen’s Speech. This will devolve skills, transport and economic development. In Wales, we will take forward the proposals of the Silk commission for further devolution, and place Welsh devolution on the same legal footing as that for Scotland.

It is also right that we should look at how Parliament works, as more power is shifted away from Westminster. We need a democratically elected senate of the nations and regions to replace the House of Lords. And, yes, we need to consider the ways in which English MPs—or English and Welsh MPs—can have a greater say on legislation that affects only England, or England and Wales.

But what we must not do, only months after the Scottish people voted to keep our kingdom united, is allow the division of our country by the back door. Nothing we do should jeopardise the future of the Union. Last year, the Government commission led by Sir William McKay looked at that very issue. Its report included the option of a change in the way legislation is dealt with at Westminster. It would involve a Committee stage made up only of English MPs, who would scrutinise and amend legislation that applied only to England. We should consider Sir William’s approach to an English— or English and Welsh—Committee stage, because it is right that English MPs, or English and Welsh MPs, should have a key role in considering such legislation. We will study the Command Paper published today by the Government, but our criterion would be not what is in the interest of the Conservative party but what is in the interest of our country. Uniting our country is more important than uniting the Tory party. Ultimately, the way in which we bring about constitutional reform has to change. The old “Westminster knows best” approach will not wash any more.

Labour, like the Liberal Democrats, the Greens and others, is prepared to put aside tribalism and put its faith in a constitutional convention to determine a bold, new way of delivering political reform. The convention will not just be made up of elected representatives; it will give members of the public the loudest voice. That would encourage the debate that the Leader of the House talked about in his statement. The convention should consider the McKay commission approach of an English Committee stage. We hope that the Conservative party will also support the constitutional convention approach, helping us to achieve the cross-party consensus that the convention idea deserves.

On the back of the statement I have a number of questions for the Leader of the House. Does he genuinely believe that politicians cooking up deals behind closed doors is still the best way to go about long-lasting constitutional reform? Does he agree that for reform to be successful there needs to be consensus? Therefore, what are his specific objections to a people-led constitutional convention? We are all agreed that change is needed when it comes to laws applying only to England, or to England and Wales. But as the Command Paper shows, there are several options available. What are his objections to a constitutional convention deciding on the best option available, rather than partisan politicians? Labour is proposing to devolve more than £30 billion to the cities and counties of England. Do the Government support that? If the Conservative party cares about a stronger democratic voice for England, why is it so opposed to introducing democracy in the House of Lords? Given that the House of Lords is dominated by politicians from south-east England, do the Government agree that it is time for a democratic second Chamber, drawn from the nations and regions of the United Kingdom?

When it comes to constitutional change, we must consider the unintended consequences of our actions and think through the way changes are interrelated and interdependent. There should be no more backroom stitch-ups.

[Mr Hague]

There is clearly a little bit of common ground, in that across the House we are determined to implement the recommendations of the Smith commission and to meet the commitments made in the Scottish referendum. As many of us have often made clear, that is not conditional on any of these other considerations or deliberations. Certainly that is common ground. The right hon. Gentleman did say that the Command Paper should be studied; that is certainly common ground.

There, perhaps, it comes to an end, because the right hon. Gentleman’s attempt to suggest that the Labour party was embracing and attempting to lead this debate is at the risible end of the scale of parliamentary statements. Saying that Labour has responded to cities and towns demanding greater say over their affairs when, for 13 years, those rights and powers were not given to the cities and towns of England is extraordinary.

The right hon. Gentleman asked about deliberations behind closed doors. The reason we have published options for consultation today is so there can be a wide debate and everybody’s views can be taken into account. But the people who have taken part in the deliberations have included the Labour leaders of many local authorities. I have welcomed into my office to discuss these things the Labour leaders of Birmingham, Cardiff, Glasgow, Leeds, Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham, Sheffield and Liverpool. It is not that this process is out of touch with local authority leaders in the country; it is that Labour Front Benchers are out of touch with their own local authority leaders. They have performed the remarkable feat in politics of being out of touch with themselves in this process, with part of their party willing to engage and other parts determined not to, hoping that this will go away.

We have achieved something in terms of the Opposition’s deliberations, in that they have now said that they are open to the idea of Committee stages of Bills being dealt with by English, or English and Welsh, MPs. That is drawn from the McKay commission. But as the right hon. Gentleman knows, McKay presented a range of options, including that. We believe on this side of the House that as further devolution is now taking place to Scotland, it is necessary to have something stronger and more binding than the McKay commission recommended, which is why the addition of legislative consent motions is an idea put forward by both coalition parties.

The right hon. Gentleman asked about the upper House. I remind him that legislation could have been enacted in this Parliament to reform the House of Lords, had the Labour party been prepared to help get such legislation through.

The right hon. Gentleman asked about a constitutional convention. The Command Paper sets out the arguments on a constitutional convention and the Government are open to ideas on that—but a constitutional convention cannot be an excuse for delay on what needs doing now in the British constitution. No one is arguing that the Smith commission recommendations should be delayed in order to wait for a constitutional convention. No one is arguing that the work on the Silk commission, and the work of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales, should be delayed for a constitutional convention. Similarly the resolution of the issue on English votes and English laws cannot be delayed for a constitutional convention. That must be resolved and these are the options for resolving it.