Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill (Tenth sitting)

Seema Malhotra Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 27th June 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Ali. I thank the Minister for his opening remarks, and it is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd in speaking on this important Bill.

Clause 139 provides an overview of the structure of part 3, which sets out the court-based regime for the civil enforcement of consumer protection law to protect the collective interests of consumers. As the Minister said, that allows for two regimes of civil enforcement—a simplified courts-based regime and the CMA’s direct enforcement regime.

The regime provides for consumer law enforcers to apply for, and the courts to make, enforcement orders, interim enforcement orders, online interface orders, to which only the CMA may apply, and interim online interface orders to which, again, only the CMA may apply. An enforcer or the court could decide to accept an undertaking from the enforcement subject instead of issuing an order, a mechanism that there should be the option for and is in line with the participative approach of working in the Bill.

Chapter 3 would also provide for certain enforcers—defined in clause 143, which we will go on to debate—and the court to attach remedies, known as “enhanced consumer measures”, to enforcement orders and undertakings. Importantly, chapter 3 would provide new powers for the courts to impose monetary penalties on enforcement subjects who have infringed the consumer protection laws within scope of part 3.

I wish to signal the Opposition’s broad support for part 3 and the measures it introduces to ensure swifter enforcement of consumer protection law and more effective redress for consumers. That is a sentiment shared by consumer groups. As one example, the written evidence submitted by Consumer Scotland expressed broad support for part 3, noting how it:

“simplifies and bolsters the enforcement of penalties for relevant infringements of consumer protection law under part 8 of the Enterprise Act 2002.”

I hope we will work constructively through the Committee to ensure that the consumer provisions in the Bill are as robust and fair as possible, and that we will not see the watering down of any measures currently drafted.

Clause 140 defines the scope of the enforcement regime set out by part 3. It sets out how a trader has committed an infringement of the part 3 enforcement regime if their act or omission harms the collective interests of consumers, as well as meeting the UK connection conditions set out in clauses 141, and the specified prohibition condition set out in clause 142.

The Opposition support clause 140 as a necessary element in introducing a robust enforcement regime. It is a stronger consumer protection, which acts where a continuation or repetition of an act, such as misleading information or an omission of information, could continue to harm future customers unless remedied. However, I ask the Minister for clarity on one aspect of the provision. As well as setting out the scope of enforcement, the clause in subsection (2) also defines relevant terms such as “trader” and “consumer”. The explanatory note states that in relation to the definition of “consumer”:

“A consumer must be an individual and so excludes body corporates. The individual must be acting wholly or mainly outside of their business.”

While it is welcome that individual consumers are being protected through the enforcement regime, could the Minister clarify where that leaves small businesses or the self-employed? The notes suggest that the individual is still a consumer when acting for dual purposes. It is clear to me, as a shadow Minister for business looking at the needs of small businesses in particular, that plenty of British businesses are negatively impacted by rogue traders supplying them, whether with office equipment or digital services. There is a segment of those businesses that could be caught inside or outside the definition depending on its interpretation.

It would be helpful if the Minister clarified whether the Government plan, for example, for microbusiness customers to be included in the consumer protection regime. Who would decide if it was 60% consumer or 60% business for the purposes of this legislation? It may be a product that is being delivered, and the business may be run from home. I would be grateful for the Minister’s comment and clarification on that point.

Amendment 59 replaces “trader” with “person”. It ensures that the definition of commercial practice for the purposes of part 3 of the Bill includes an act or omission by a trader relating to the promotion or supply of a consumer’s product to another consumer. I would welcome some clarification from the Minister. Will the amendment mean that where a consumer or private individual commits what would be an infringement by a trader when selling a product to another consumer—for instance through eBay or Facebook Marketplace—they are liable for enforcement action, as a business would be? This is an important area of protection for consumers, so I would be interested to hear more about how it would work in practice. If I understand the provision correctly, it could significantly expand the enforcement regime beyond just businesses.

Clause 141 sets out how traders meet the UK connection condition, which, as set out in clause 140, forms part of the scope of the enforcement regime. It sets out how a commercial practice meets the UK connection condition if at least one of three conditions are met. Those conditions are that the trader has a place of business in the UK, that the trader carries on business in the UK, meaning that their business operates in the UK, perhaps without an office, or that the trader carries on activities that are in any way directed to consumers in the UK. The conditions are necessarily broad but important for the protection of UK consumers. We support clause 141.

Clause 142 defines the specified prohibition condition, which is the final condition setting out the scope of the enforcement regime in part 3. In short, the clause sets out that a commercial practice meets this condition if it breaches provisions listed in schedule 13 and 14. Schedule 13 sets out the enactments, obligations and rules of law to which the court-based enforcement regime applies. The list is very comprehensive, and we support its contents. In particular, we note that chapters 1 to 4 of part 4 of the Bill are included in the schedule, which is welcome. I would welcome assurances from the Minister that the Government consulted widely among stakeholders regarding the compiling of the enactments of the schedule, so that we can be confident that there are no omissions. In addition, I invite the Minister to correct me if I am wrong in my understanding of how the schedule could be amended. There are other schedules with delegated powers, but I wanted to understand what the process would be here if there was a question of needing to amend the schedule if legislation were updated in the future. I would be grateful for clarification on that.

Similarly to schedule 13, schedule 14 lists the enactments to which the CMA’s direct enforcement regime applies. Like schedule 13, this schedule appears to be comprehensively drawn and is thus supported by the Opposition. I note that it also makes reference to other measures of the Bill that will be going through. On the theme of seeking clarity from the Minister, I would welcome assurances that a wide range of stakeholders and legislation has been consulted and reviewed to ensure that this is a comprehensive schedule. I would also ask what the process is for updating the schedule if required in the future.

Clause 143 lists public designated enforcers who would be able to use the court-based enforcement regime. We are pleased to see that this includes the CMA, trading standards, the Financial Conduct Authority, the Information Commissioner’s Office and Ofcom, among others. Certain private designated enforcers would also be able to use the court-based regime, such as the Consumers’ Association. We welcome the clause and the inclusion of a comprehensive list of public designated enforcers, but have the Government consulted with the groups they are planning to include in the clause? Were any groups or bodies that expressed an interest in being designated enforcers omitted from the clause?

Subsection (3) gives the Secretary of State a delegated power to add to or remove a body as a public or private designated enforcer, or to amend its entry. Regulations made under the clause would be subject to the affirmative procedure. However, the power could not be used to remove or vary the enforcement powers of the CMA, trading standards or the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland. We welcome the protection of those bodies’ powers, but I would like clarification from the Minister on private designated enforcers.

The clause names the Consumers’ Association as a private designated enforcer, but no other group. While I note the criteria in clause 144 for designating a body as a private designated enforcer, it would nevertheless be helpful if the Minister spelled out how a body becomes a private designated enforcer. Would it have to apply? I would also be grateful for clarification of the basis on which the Secretary of State may remove, or seek to remove, a public or private designated enforcer—an issue that I will discuss further.

Clause 144 specifies the criteria that must be satisfied for the Secretary of State to designate a body as a private designated enforcer. This is an important clause. The criteria establish certain minimum standards of governance, transparency and competence that a person must meet to carry out enforcement action, and we welcome the clause. However, I refer the Minister to my question about how the Government expect people to become private enforcers. Would there be an application? Perhaps he would set out the process, and the basis on which he envisages withdrawing designation from an enforcer. Would that be because some conditions are no longer met? Would it be because some sort of complaint is received? It would be helpful to understand how those changes could be made.

Clause 145 identifies the categories of person an application for an enforcement order could be made against, and the types of infringements that they must have committed. An enforcer, as designated by clauses 143 or 144, would be able to apply to the court for an enforcement order or an interim enforcement order if the enforcer considers that they have engaged in, are engaging in or are likely to engage in a commercial practice that constitutes a relevant infringement, or if they are an accessory to such a practice.

We welcome the clause, but I would welcome further clarification on a few issues. First, the legislation states that

“an enforcer may make an application in respect of a relevant infringement”.

Did the Government consider changing “may” to “must”, or are they confident that enforcers will always apply for enforcement in cases where they have identified an infringement? I would welcome hearing the reasoning behind the choice made. Secondly, subsection (4) limits the power to apply for the imposition of a monetary penalty to public designated enforcers. Would the Minister clarify why that power has been withheld from private designated enforcers?

--- Later in debate ---

[Seema Malhotra]

I have already made some remarks on clause 145, but I will just echo my final question. I asked the Minister about the power for public designated enforcers to apply for the imposition of a monetary penalty and why that power has been withheld from private designated enforcers. Clause 146 refers to CMA directions to other enforcers. As the Minister has outlined, the clause introduces provisions such that if an enforcer other than the CMA seeks similar action on applying for an enforcement order for a particular infringement, it may direct which enforcer can make the application. That could lead to, for example, the CMA directing that an application for an order can be made only by itself.

We support the clause, but does the Minister’s Department expect the CMA to engage constructively with other enforcers to ensure that the most suitable enforcer is the one that is allowed to make the application? The underlying policy argument is important; we would not want to see multiple enforcers seeking to take action against the same business for the same infringement. I would like some clarity on how that is expected to work.

Clause 147 would provide that where an enforcer thinks a relevant infringement has occurred or is likely to occur, it must consult the enforcement subject before making an application for an enforcement. Subsection (2) introduces a requirement on the enforcer to alert the enforcement subject to the possibility of a monetary penalty being sought alongside an enforcement order. The explanatory notes state that the policy intent is that prior consultation may quickly lead to the relevant infringement ending and make court action unnecessary. We welcome the clause as a necessary part of the enforcement process, and in the spirit of opportunity for co-operation that underpins the new regime.

Under clause 148, the court would be able to make an enforcement order if, on an application from an enforcer under clause 145, it finds that the enforcement subject has engaged, is engaging or is likely to engage in a commercial practice that constitutes a relevant infringement or is an accessory to the infringing practice. As an alternative to an order, the court would be able to accept an undertaking. Under subsection (3), in determining whether to make an enforcement order the court would have to take into consideration whether the enforcement subject had given an undertaking under clause 155 to a public designated enforcer, or clause 177 in respect of the infringing practice. Where the court makes an enforcement order, it would be required under this clause to indicate the nature of the infringing practice and direct the enforcement subject to comply. We strongly welcome the clause. It is a necessary step in ensuring that the courts have adequate enforcement powers over companies that are causing detriment to consumers.

I have a question for the Minister regarding clause 148(8). It states that as part of an enforcement order, an undertaking may include a further undertaking by the respondent to publish “the order” and “a corrective statement”. As the explanatory notes state, the policy intent behind the subsection is to prevent the company

“further distorting consumers’ purchasing decisions”

by making them aware that a company has had to change its practices. I welcome the subsection as a common-sense step to ensure full clarity for consumers in instances in which enforcement action has been taken, but will the Minister clarify whether he expects the court always to require the publication of the order and a corrective statement? Surely, it would be simpler and better for the consumer for that undertaking to be included in every enforcement order, so that there was confidence that the consumer will be as informed as possible.

Clause 149 will enable the court to include, in an enforcement order or interim order, a requirement to take, as part of enforcement orders,

“such enhanced consumer measures as the court considers just and reasonable.”

The court would first have to consider whether the proposed measures were proportionate and in doing so consider

“the likely benefit of the measures to consumers…the costs likely to be incurred by”

the enforcement agent and

“the likely cost to consumers of obtaining the benefit of the measures.”

We welcome the clause as a further necessary element of the consumer protection and enforcement regime that we are seeking to deliver.

Clause 150 confers a new power on courts to impose a monetary penalty on a company for infringing consumer protection regulations. The Opposition welcome the clause, but why has it taken so long to get to this point? Turning to the details of the monetary penalties, subsection (5) sets out that, where the enforcement subject has a turnover that can be determined, a fixed amount penalty must not exceed £300,000 or, if higher, 10% of the total value of the enforcement subject’s turnover. We support those penalty thresholds, but could the Minister expand on why the legislation has landed on £300,000 as a maximum penalty if it is less than 10% of the company’s turnover? Is that an arbitrary figure or one that has been consulted on and calculated to ensure the maximum deterrent so that companies do not infringe the legislation? Will the Minister clarify the source of the figure?

Finally, I would welcome further clarification from the Minister on clause 150(8), which provides an enforcement subject who is required to pay a monetary penalty with a right to appeal the decision to impose a penalty, its nature or amount on the merits, in addition to their existing appeal rights. I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify the appeals threshold, which appears to be different from the judicial review threshold for companies with strategic market status, as set out earlier in the Bill. Was the threshold set for an informed reason? There seems to be a lower threshold for consumer protection infringements.

In addition, has the Minister considered whether the more merits-based approach could lead to companies, particularly larger ones with significant legal capacity, drawing out the process of monetary penalties being imposed on them by pursuing lengthy court appeals? I want to ensure that we have understood the matter correctly, so I would welcome the Minister’s clarifying the point and saying whether those are unfounded concerns. If they are well founded, we want to have a look at the issue more closely. In short, the Opposition welcome the clause, because we want to ensure that the measure is a robust as possible in deterring companies from engaging in practices that harm consumers.

Under clause 151, the court will be able to make an interim enforcement order on an enforcement subject. It will be able to make such an order if it considers that the subject

“has engaged…or is likely to engage in a commercial practice which constitutes a relevant infringement”.

In addition, interim orders can be made if

“it appears to the court that if the application had been an application for an enforcement order it would be likely to be granted, and…the court considers it is expedient that the infringing practice is prohibited or prevented immediately.”

That includes being able to make an interim enforcement order without notice.

We welcome the clause in principle, as a positive contribution to ensuring that swift action is taken where necessary to protect consumers. However, it would be helpful if the Minister could clarify the scope or give examples of how the power may be used. Examples specified in the Bill papers include preventing a misleading advert from being made public and enforcing the withdrawal of unsafe goods, but it would be helpful to understand the threshold for an order to be made without notice. Is it, for example, where there is current or imminent harm? It is important that that is clarified so that consumers and those who would be enforcement subjects can understand how the power could be used by the court, and so that there is no question about scope.

Clause 152 enables the CMA to apply to the court for an online interface order or interim online interface order in respect of a person that it considers has engaged, is engaging or is likely to engage in a practice that constitutes a relevant infringement. Subsection (3) sets out a jurisdictional test that limits the CMA’s power to apply for an order in respect of a third party overseas; it may do so only if the person is a UK national, the person is habitually resident in the UK, the firm is established in the UK, or the firm carries on business in the UK.

Is the Minister confident that those criteria cover all scenarios in which companies could be involved in misleading practices towards UK consumers, whether they are resident here or not? Why is it just the CMA that has the power to make such applications, and not other public or private enforcers, such as trading standards or local weights and measures authorities? We welcome clause 152, but it would be helpful to understand that further. There has been some discussion of the important role of local trading standards in our enforcement regimes.

Clause 153, which necessarily follows clause 152, gives the court a discretionary power to make an online interface order in response to an application from the CMA under clause 152. We welcome clause 153 and recognise the importance of including digital practices that harm consumers. However, as with clause 152, will the Minister expand on why local weights and measures authorities will not be given powers to apply for orders alongside the CMA?

The Bill represents an opportunity to update the powers of trading standards so that they can operate more effectively in the 21st century. The Chartered Trading Standards Institute notes that officers regularly have to exercise powers of physical entry in order to seize documents that they may wish to use in criminal proceedings, but it also raises the issues that officers have accessing filed documents that are not physical. My question is about how trading standards powers should be reviewed and updated in line with those of other enforcers, and the opportunity to do that in the context of the Bill.

Finally, under clause 154, following an application from the CMA, the court will be able to grant an interim online interface order, where it is considered that a final online interface order would likely be granted but that an interim order is needed to end an infringement immediately. Subsection (2) will permit the court to grant an interim order without giving notice to the enforcement target.

We welcome the provisions, but I have similar questions —they are relevant—to those I asked about the earlier clauses.

[Paul Scully]

Let me try to cover as many of those questions as I can. The hon. Lady asked about the possibility of multiple enforcers in process at the same time. In effect, we are restating the existing arrangements, which have been working. They work with the CMA as the gatekeeper, so the CMA would have to be notified when action has been taken—it can filter anything going on in that regard—and it would have to co-ordinate the approach.

On clause 148, and court powers to make orders and penalties, the hon. Lady talked about subsection (9) on whether an undertaking may include a trader publishing it in a corrective statement and whether I, as a Minister, would always expect that to happen. It is discretionary. The enforcer may require that as appropriate.

On the penalties, the £300,000 basically sits in the middle of the pack internationally. If we look at the regimes around the world, where penalties are imposed on individuals, New Zealand’s consumer protection system has £100,000 and Canada’s consumer regime has £450,000. We sit within that, looking at the international comparators.

[Seema Malhotra]

Is the Minister saying that the decision to go with the £300,000 was just because it was in the middle of the pack?

[Paul Scully]

It was a fair balance after looking at international regimes—a fair comparison with similar regimes around the world. Similarly, the 10% penalty is reflected in penalties across other regimes.

The hon. Lady also asked about the CMA being able to enforce and why private enforcers did not have the same powers. Only the CMA may impose penalties. Private enforcers may seek a penalty in court, but the CMA is the only body able to issue penalties directly.

Finally—I have probably missed a couple of questions, but I will review them later just in case—on the interim notes, the hon. Lady made a fair point about stopping the immediate harm. I talked about domain names, as well as removing adverts and such things. It is about being able to act quickly. The whole point about the changes to the regime is to ensure that we make it not only as effective as possible in the modern world, but as fast as possible.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 145 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 146 to 154 ordered to stand part of the Bill.



Clause 155

Acceptance of undertakings by enforcers

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Paul Scully]

Clauses 155 to 160 restate and enhance provisions in part 8 of the Enterprise Act 2002 that govern the acceptance and enforcement of undertakings by enforcers and the courts.

Clause 155 provides a power for enforcers to accept, vary and release an undertaking from an infringer or accessory. Undertakings may be accepted only where they include provisions that will stop or prevent the allegedly infringing practices. The clause will allow enforcers to continue using co-operative enforcement means, which can lead to faster resolution of consumer harms and reduce the volume of applications for court orders.

Clause 156 enables enforcers to include enhanced consumer measures in undertakings accepted under clause 155. Enforcers must consider those measures to be just, reasonable and proportionate. Clause 157 sets out requirements for enforcers when varying or releasing undertakings that ensure procedural fairness for enforcement subjects. Clause 158 allows for further court proceedings for breaches of undertakings and orders made by the court, giving the court a new power to impose a civil monetary penalty for the breach of an undertaking given to the court.

Clause 159 allows a public designated enforcer to make an application to the court for a consumer protection order if it considers that an undertaking given to it has been breached. If the court is satisfied that that is the case, it may make the requested order, impose a monetary penalty or both. A penalty may be imposed only in cases where the breach was without reasonable excuse.

Clause 160 sets out the types of penalties and the maximum penalty amounts that can be imposed by the court for failure to comply with undertakings given to it or to public designated enforcers. The court has the discretion to impose a fixed amount penalty of up to £150,000 or 5% of global turnover, or a daily rate penalty of up to £15,000 or 5% of global turnover accruing over the days when non-compliance continues, or a combination of both.

[Seema Malhotra]

Clause 155 provides that where an enforcer could make an application to the court for an enforcement order or an interim enforcement order, it may accept an undertaking from the enforcement subject. Subsection (2) sets out the scope of such an undertaking, which is the infringer or the accessory agreeing not to continue or repeat the infringing practice. The Opposition strongly support the clause as it provides necessary flexibility in the consumer protection regime.

We heard during evidence, particularly from the CMA, that the ability for companies to work co-operatively with enforcers to comply with the new regime is an important part of having the fairest and best possible enforcement regime. Where possible, we should ensure that enforcement is done through co-operation. In evidence to the Committee, the CMA said:

“This is not a regime where we want to operate behind closed doors. The whole design of the regime is a participative approach where we will engage with a broad range of stakeholders, businesses and consumers as we consult on designation, design the conduct requirements, and then enforce against them.”––[Official Report, Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Public Bill Committee, 13 June 2023; c. 6, Q2.]

As a result, we welcome the clause.

Clause 156 enables an enforcer to include enhanced consumer measures as part of an undertaking from a company, if the enforcer considers them just and reasonable. The enforcer will be obliged to consider the likely benefits and costs of the measures as part of its assessment of their proportionality. In particular, it will consider the costs of the measures themselves to the enforcement subject, as well as the administrative costs. As with clause 149, we welcome clause 156 as a further necessary element of the new consumer protection regime.

Clause 157 sets out the process to be followed when an enforcer proposes to materially vary or release an undertaking that it has previously accepted. Specifically, the process requires the enforcer to give notice to the respondent of its intention to vary or release an undertaking, and to consider any representations made in accordance with the notice. The notice must include the time by which representations may be made to the enforcer. We welcome this clause, which provides clarity for the enforcement regime, the enforcement subject and the consumer in the event of a necessary change. What timescale does the Minister expect the process to work to in most cases, or will it be entirely up to the enforcer? It would help both Parliament and the enforcement bodies to understand the timings envisaged in this process, to be sure that they strike the right balance between being flexible and proportionate and are fair to both the enforcement subject and consumers.

Clause 158 would apply in circumstances where the court makes a consumer protection order against an enforcement subject or a member of its corporate group, or where it has accepted an undertaking. In the event of a failure to comply with the order or undertaking, the clause enables the enforcer that made the original application or any other enforcer to make a further application to the same court. In effect, the court will be able to act in respect of not only non-compliance with an undertaking, but the infringing practice and any related consent or connivance with it by an accessory. The court will be empowered to impose a monetary penalty, regardless of whether the enforcement subject has a reasonable excuse for non-compliance, reflecting the serious nature of breaching an undertaking given to the court. We welcome the clause as a way of providing robust enforcement and punishment mechanisms for failure to comply with the regime, but I would welcome clarification from the Minister on subsection (8). Like clause 150, that subsection provides an enforcement subject who is required to pay a monetary penalty the right to appeal the decision to impose a penalty, its nature or amount on the merits, in relation to their existing appeal rights. I am not sure I completely grasped his previous argument on whether there is a lower appeals standard for those elements of the Bill?

Clause 159, similar to clause 158, sets out the process for when a company fails to comply with an undertaking accepted by the enforcer or the courts. The powers granted to the courts and the process by which the enforcer must apply reflect the provisions in clause 158 and, in the same way, we welcome them. However, the same question is raised about what looks like a lower threshold for appeals than in other parts of the Bill.

Finally, clause 160 sets out further details around the monetary penalties the courts may impose for failures to comply under clauses 158 and 159. We welcome any steps to improve enforcement action through the imposition of monetary penalties and therefore support the clause in principle. Despite that welcome, I must ask the Minister why, when it comes to failure to comply with undertakings, the monetary penalty in the clause, which is £150,000, is less than that in clause 150, where the court can issue penalties of up to £300,000? Similarly, clause 160 refers to 5% of the company’s turnover versus 10% in clause 150. I may not understand some of the Government’s rationale behind those different amounts. What are the reasons for the differences in the thresholds and those lower amounts?

[Paul Scully]

I picked up three questions. The reason the hon. Lady could not follow my argument about appeals from the first bit was because that was the bit I forgot to answer. I will cover that because they relate to the same thing.

Timescales will be up to the enforcer. None is set, but there is a general duty of expedition on the CMA set by the Bill overall. On appeals as they relate to both sections—

[Seema Malhotra]

Is the timescale deliberate, or has the question simply not been fully addressed? It is important to ensure clear expectations of the timing of some of these processes.

[Paul Scully]

I think the reason is the wide range of remediation events that may come before the enforcer to tackle, so they are being given that flexibility, but with an understanding that there is a general rule of expedition on the CMA. That is why we have approached this as we have.

The appeals regime is very different from the bits of the digital markets regime that we talked about earlier. In that case we were talking about a small number of firms with strategic market status, whereas any trader can be subject to this regime. The new monetary penalties that we are introducing are significant. A merits-based appeal is therefore important, because of the range of different-sized companies involved, to ensure fairness and to make sure that the issues involved relate to settled law rather than novel regulations covering digital conduct. Appeals are less likely to be disproportionately lengthy, because the digital market involves a more novel approach, which is why we were worried about extended appeal processes.

As for why thresholds are lower in this part of the Bill than for infringements, infringements, at £300,000, are clearly more serious. What we are talking about here—a breach of undertaking to a court—is still serious, but if someone is stepping down, we believe it is more proportionate to set the threshold at the slightly lower amount of £150,000.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 155 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 156 to 160 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 161

Notification requirements: applications

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Paul Scully]

Clauses 161 to 164 restate and update provisions in part 8 of the Enterprise Act 2002 that enable the CMA to perform co-ordination functions across the consumer enforcement landscape. This will help to prevent duplication of enforcement, which imposes an unnecessary burden on traders and wastes public money.

Clause 161 requires enforcers to notify the CMA of their intention to apply for certain court orders. Clause 162 imposes a requirement on enforcers to inform the CMA of any undertakings given to them. Clause 163 imposes a requirement on trading standards departments in England and Wales to notify the CMA if they intend to start proceedings for an offence under an enactment listed in part 1 of schedule 13 to the Bill. Clause 164 empowers UK courts to notify the CMA of relevant convictions and judgments. Bringing convictions and judgments to the attention of the CMA that it might not otherwise be aware of will allow the CMA to consider exercising its enforcement power under this part of the Bill.

[Seema Malhotra]

It is a pleasure to speak to clause 161 and the other clauses in this group. Under clause 161, as the Minister outlined, enforcers would be able to notify the CMA before applying for an enforcement order, and could only apply for an order 14 days later, or seven days later when applying for an interim order. The powers also allow the CMA to agree to shorten these wait times. The Bill’s explanatory notes explain:

“The policy intent underlying the notification requirement in this clause is for the CMA to be able to perform a coordinating role in relation to enforcement under this Part. The notification requirement will enable the CMA to facilitate the sharing of information between enforcers”,

and that is outlined as mitigating

“the risk of traders facing multiple actions in relation to the same infringing practice”

—a point that we have raised before. We are supportive of the clause and the principle of enabling the enforcement regime and ensuring that it is joined up and efficient in practice. I seek the Minister’s clarification on whether the Government have had discussions with other public enforcers on the provisions in the clause. Is it the case, as he has said before, that the CMA broadly has a co-ordinating role and other powers, and is that carrying on an existing practice and pattern of engagement between those enforcing bodies?

Clause 162 requires enforcers to notify the CMA of the terms of any undertaking given to it under clause 155 and of the identity of the persons giving it. Again, that is important to enable the CMA to fulfil its co-ordination role. As with clause 161, we support the provisions in the clause. Clause 163 introduces provisions requiring local weights and measures authorities, such as local trading standards bodies, to give the CMA notice of its intention to start proceedings for an offence under schedule 13, which we have debated. The authority must also notify the CMA of the outcome of those proceedings.

The policy intent, as explained by the explanatory notes, is to enable the CMA to play its co-ordinated role granted to it in previous clauses. The notes provide a potential example whereby the CMA could inform one authority that another is prosecuting, or that an enforcement order has been granted in respect of the same infringing practice. That is an important part of the co-ordinating role because it demonstrates that it is not just about the CMA being informed, but the CMA ensuring that other relevant enforcers are informed of what other enforcers are doing. That is then a streamlined and efficient process that does not hit the enforcement subject more than once on the same matter.

Clause 164 confers a power on the courts to notify the CMA of convictions and judgments it makes that may not have been bought to its attention. That is a common-sense provision. However, I would welcome further clarification from the Minister specifically on subsection (2). It states that the court

“may make arrangements to bring the… judgment to the attention of the CMA”.

We know the strain and pressures that our court system is under. I ask the Minister why the provision introduces a power as opposed to a duty. If the CMA is to have, as is intended, a co-ordinating role where it is in the picture on all the relevant information related to those enforcement subjects, are there any circumstances in which the Government believe the courts may not need to inform the CMA? In that case, could the Government clarify what those circumstances might be, or where they might consider it not necessary for the CMA to have this information if it considers it to not be relevant to the function it carries out?

We need to remember that this is not just a function being carried out for today; this is where the CMA will be able to have a record of enforcement measures, any breaches and any other information that would be relevant to any considerations in the future. I would be grateful to understand from the Minister why that important and common-sense provision is a power as opposed to a duty.

[Paul Scully]

The CMA being able to issue permission to bring enforcement procedures is consistent with the position under part 8 of the Enterprise Act 2002. We respect and understand the expertise of all enforcers, including sector regulators, so the CMA is playing a co-ordination role to effectively share information between enforcers, and guarantee that enforcement actions are not duplicated. That will mitigate the risk of a trader facing multiple actions for the same infringement practices. The Government have discussed the provisions with other enforcers, and the CMA already has memorandums of understanding with other enforcers.

On the question of why there is a new reporting requirement in clause 164, actually it is not new. It was already established under part 8 of the Enterprise Act. Again, it ensures that the CMA can consider exercising its enforcement powers where appropriate. It only gives the court the power to notify judgments and convictions to the CMA. It is already there under the Enterprise Act, and that is why we have brought it in here.

[Seema Malhotra]

Perhaps I could put the point about power versus duty to the Minister again? I understand that many aspects of the Bill have been brought together from other areas of legislation. We have to ask the question within the context of the new regime, which is different to how the situation was prior to the legislation coming in, whether that is worth reviewing. We are talking about a regime in which the CMA is now a co-ordinating body, in which there may be different ways action can be taken and where information from the court could be material. There is not as much of a duty to pass that information on under clause 164, but that could be relevant information that is not there for a matter in the future.

I again draw the Minister’s attention to the massive backlog we have in the courts, and the administrative challenges with some of those procedures. The best intentions may not be a reality, and that may then have consequences for the regime we are trying to set up to be as robust, predictable and efficient as possible.

[Paul Scully]

I take the hon. Lady’s point, but I would say that it has been directly transposed. It is a power not a duty in the Enterprise Act, and that is where we have worked from.

Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill (Seventh sitting)

Seema Malhotra Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 22nd June 2023 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Order. I am a bear of little brain. If somebody does not stand, I do not know that they want to speak.

[Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op)]

rose—

[The Chair]

I call Seema Malhotra.

[Seema Malhotra]

I just wanted to make a general point in relation to the DMU’s powers, because they are wider and there is a question about mechanisms to address the scrutiny and accountability of DMU decisions. We support the PCI framework and the flexibility, but on the way in which decisions can be made about PCI notices, the changes to allow greater flexibility and changes to orders made, there is the potential for a lot more flexibility, but there is the balance of certainty and scrutiny. Can the Minister address how there will be greater opportunity for scrutiny, transparency and accountability over the DMU’s use of the greater powers?

[Paul Scully]

I will try to cover as many of those points as I can. On the difference between AEC and AECC and adverse effects on consumers and competition, that is effectively built into the regime, anyway. The DMU’s objective is to promote competition for the benefit of consumers, and that must shape the design of all its regulatory interventions, including for PCIs. Under the current drafting, the DMU is able to address the detrimental effects of a competition problem on consumers. The issue is terminology rather than anything else.

The hon. Lady asked about how PCIs will be published. They can be introduced after CR and can be published alongside them, because speed is important, which it is important to highlight. She also asked about where PCIs will be published, which I can summarise. A PCI notice launches an investigation and a summary of that will be published, with the firm having had the full notice.

[Seema Malhotra]

Will the Minister confirm how soon that will happen? There is a four-month timeline after that full consultation and then the pro-competition orders or alternatives. In terms of the public—

[Paul Scully]

That is a fair point. The best I can say is as soon as is practicable. I talked about the fact that speed is important, but it really depends on the complexity of the case and what needs to be in the summary, how quickly it will take to summarise and so on. There is a drive to get on with this as quickly as possible. The theme throughout the entire framework of the Bill is that detriment happens at speed in digital markets and we have to crack on and get those PCIs in place should they be required.

The decision notices for PCIs will go to the firm first. The full document will be published and an order will be introduced. A summary will be published. Should the PCI be replaced, an order revoked or should there be an acceptance of varying commitments on a PCI, the full document will be published.

The CMA can consult on an order as part of the earlier PCI decision, so the four months may not be necessary. Those timetables are there as a maximum, depending on the complexities.

[Seema Malhotra]

I would like to pick up on the point about pro-competition orders and the consultation. Clause 49(4) states:

“The provision that may be made in reliance on subsection (3) includes provision requiring an undertaking to act differently in respect of different users or customers (and such provision may be by reference to a description of users or customers, to absolute numbers of users or customers, or to a proportion of the undertaking’s total number of users or customers).”

That appears both broad and specific. Interested parties may want clarity, so is it expected that that detail will be discussed and consulted on?

[Paul Scully]

The way that consultation is done depends. If there is something starkly obvious to everyone, it may be that only minimal consultation is needed. If it is more technical, it will need to be more in depth, which is why we are not being prescriptive from the centre. It is up to the DMU to consider this.

The hon. Lady also asked about a list of PCIs and potential PCIs. It is very much for the DMU to address the recourse to a designated firm’s market dominance. Examples of PCIs that could be introduced include choice remedies that will allow users to make an active choice in the digital services that they use. PCIs could, for example, compel a designated firm to present users with different options for their preferred web browser, and we heard evidence on that from Gener8. Instead of defaulting to a particular browser, PCIs could include interoperability remedies that will enable users to use goods and services from different providers as opposed to being locked into one provider. For example, the DMU might require users of different instant messaging services to be able to communicate with one another.

The DMU could introduce data portability remedies, which would make it easier for users to switch providers. Such remedies could, for example, require a designated firm to make it possible for its users to download and export data to a new phone with a different operating system. PCIs could include data access remedies, which would level the playing field by requiring designated firms to share their data with competitors, which could include the data that large search engines have on users’ search history. Separation remedies would require designated firms to run different aspects of their businesses independently, so that dominant firms cannot use market power in one part of the business to gain power in another, which might involve requiring data stores for different services to be separated. It could require the firm to sell off a part of its business altogether.

Those are examples, but that was not a prescriptive or exhaustive list of PCIs. They are very much up to the DMU to frame depending on the technology and the market dominance that they are trying to remedy.

[The Chair]

The hon. Lady is looking at me in a funny way.

[Seema Malhotra]

I seek your guidance, Mr Hollobone. I was just wondering about process. I had one last question for the Minister; I thought that he was continuing his speech, but he has finished it.

[The Chair]

One last question.

[Seema Malhotra]

I seek clarification from the Minister on clause 51(8), which reads:

“The fact that a pro-competition order ceases to have effect does not affect the exercise of any functions in relation to a breach or possible breach of that order.”

I assume that is referring to historical breaches, but I seek clarification on that because it is not in the wording of the clause.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alex Davies-Jones]

I was champing at the bit to talk about these clauses. However, I will keep my comments brief because much of Labour’s thoughts align with our thoughts on previous clauses.

Clause 70 gives the CMA the power to require any individual to attend an interview and answer questions for the purposes of a digital markets investigation. That is consistent with the amendments to section 26A of the Competition Act 1998. We welcome those, so it is only right that the powers appear in this legislation, too. These are basic powers and the clause is fairly procedural. The CMA must have the power to give notice to any individual with information relevant to a digital markets investigation, requiring them to answer relevant questions at a place or in a manner specified in the notice. That is fundamental for an empowered regulator. We support the approach, so we have not sought to amend the clause at this stage. We also support the intentions of clause 71, and we believe that the approach is fair and reasonable. The clause is important for clarity. We welcome its inclusion in the Bill and we have not sought to amend it at this stage.

Turning to clause 72, it is right and proper that the CMA must have reasonable grounds to suspect that information relevant to the breach investigation can be accessed from or on the premises. We support that common- sense approach. The provisions are in line with those for other regimes, and will be important in ensuring that if the CMA is required take action for the purposes of a breach investigation, it can do so in a timely and effective manner. We support the clause and have not sought to amend it.

We also support the intentions of clause 73, which gives the CMA the power to enter business and domestic premises under a warrant, without notice and using reasonable force, for the purposes of a breach investigation. Again, the CMA has powers of entry under a warrant through sections 28 and 28A of the Competition Act 1998. It will come as no surprise, given that we support provisions for the CMA to act without a warrant, that we agree that it should be able to act with one. We value the clarification that the CMA must prove that there are reasonable grounds to act. If it has to, it can call on individuals who have expertise that is not available in the CMA but is required if the terms of the warrant are to be fully carried out. That will allow the CMA to act rapidly, which, given the level of these breaches, is vital. We therefore support this clause standing part of the Bill.

Clause 74 sets out the supplementary requirements to the CMA’s power to enter premises under a warrant. We welcome the transparency afforded by subsection (1), and the clarification that although the CMA cannot enter premises outside the United Kingdom, as outlined in subsection (6), it can access information regardless of where it is physically stored. That is an important point, given the nature of SMS firms and their global holdings. For those reasons, Labour is happy to support the clause standing part of the Bill.

Clause 75 makes necessary amendments to a range of sections of the Criminal and Justice and Police Act 2001 to enable the CMA to seize information and take copies of, or extracts from, information when exercising its power under clause 73 to enter business and domestic premises with a warrant. It is a practical clause that aligns with the CMA’s power to seize documents from business premises under section 28 of the Competition Act 1998. We therefore believe that the clause should stand part of the Bill.

Clause 76 requires the CMA to follow the rules of the High Court, the Court of Session or the CAT when making an application. We see it as a natural consequential clause and will therefore support it.

[Seema Malhotra]

May I make one additional comment? We received evidence from trading standards about their access to information that could be stored online in order for them to undertake some of their responsibilities. Has any consideration been given to whether the search powers that the CMA will be given could be extended to trading standards, which sometimes undertake very similar areas of work?

--- Later in debate ---

Clause 80 will give the DMU the power to publish a notice of any decision to assist a regulator in another country with an investigation. That ensures that the DMU cannot be sued for defamation as a result of publishing a notice of a decision to provide investigative assistance, provided it is in line with the requirements set out in the clause. It is essential that the DMU is able to support other regulators without undue fear of legal action, which might limit its ability to assist in pursuing challenging international cases effectively.

[Seema Malhotra]

It is a pleasure to speak to this group of clauses on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd, who is speaking in another debate.

We support clause 77, which will give the CMA the power to require a skilled person, which could be a legal or other person, to provide a report to it on a matter relevant to the operation of the regime. That is in line with other regimes of that nature, and we therefore support its inclusion.

The clarity afforded by subsection (1), which sets out that the CMA can use this power in

“exercising, or deciding whether to exercise, any of its digital markets functions”,

is welcome. It is also right that the CMA can exercise the power only in relation to a designated undertaking or an undertaking subject to an SMS investigation.

In order to ensure no unnecessary delay, subsections (2) and (3), which will give the CMA the power to appoint a skilled person to provide a report and give notice of the appointment and other relevant matters to the undertaking in question, while also specifying the form of a report, are an important inclusion. That aligns well with subsection (12), which imposes a duty on the designated undertaking or undertaking subject to an SMS investigation, and any person connected to those undertakings, to assist the skilled person in any way reasonably required to prepare the report.

One hopes that designated undertakings would co-operate in such instances, but it is welcome and helpful to have their obligations outlined as they are in clause 77. Clarity on the consequences of failing to comply, in the form of penalties or other enforcement provisions, is also an important and positive step. Labour has therefore not sought to amend the clause at this stage; we believe it should stand part of the Bill, as drafted.

As with any regulatory regime, the CMA should of course preserve relevant evidence. Clause 78 is integral, because it places a legal duty to preserve evidence that is relevant to a digital markets investigation, a compliance report by a designated undertaking, and evidence where the CMA is providing investigative assistance to an overseas regulator. The Bill also confirms that where the CMA has made a formal request for information, there are penalties for non-compliance, or for falsifying, concealing or destroying information.

Labour supports the purpose of clause 78, which is to preserve evidence before and after the CMA has made a formal request. We believe that it is consistent with the existing duty to preserve evidence under section 201(4) of the Enterprise Act 2002 on cartel offence investigations. We note, however, that the duties within this clause do not apply

“where the person has a reasonable excuse to do so.”

I—and, I am sure, others—would welcome clarification from the Minister on that point. We support the intentions of the clause and have therefore not sought to amend it at this stage, but I would appreciate further clarity on the definition and how it will work in practice.

Clause 79 is helpful because it specifies that the CMA cannot require any information subject to legal and professional privilege, or, in Scotland, confidentiality of communications. That is an important point to make and is in line with similar regimes. We support the clarity outlined in subsection (2), which specifies that the limitation applies to producing, taking possession of, and taking copies of or extracts from a privileged communication. I do not need to elaborate much further here. Labour considers this to be a fairly standard procedure and we therefore support clause 79 stand part.

Finally, clause 80 gives the CMA the power to publish a notice of any decision to use its investigatory powers under the digital markets regime to assist an investigation by the regulator in another jurisdiction. The notice may include the regulator that the CMA is assisting, the undertaking that is the subject of investigation, and the matter for which the undertaking is under investigation. Labour welcomes the transparency measures here.

My question is about why that approach has not been afforded to the CMA’s domestic work on digital markets. If the CMA is able to support overseas regulators in ways that might identify the undertaking, I am unclear as to why the CMA is not compelled in the same way for issues that might arise in the UK. I am interested to hear the Minister’s thoughts on that point, because it is an important one for companies likely to be captured in the SMS definition and for challenger firms that might one day find themselves subject to these regulations, too.

[Paul Scully]

I thank the hon. Lady. I will probably write to her with examples of where that measure might come in. As I have said, it does not come in if there is an exemption for people with a reasonable excuse. I am not fleet enough of foot to come up with a good example for her at the moment, but I will certainly write to her.

On the domestic situation for the DMU, I will, again, probably write to the hon. Lady, but my interpretation is that it is easier to deal with the potential for defamation and so on when someone has full control of the case in one jurisdiction. If we are working across jurisdictions internationally it is more complex, so the protections need to be there.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 77, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 78 to 80 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Mike Wood.)

Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill (Eighth sitting)

Seema Malhotra Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 22nd June 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Paul Scully]

Government amendment 25 seeks to correct the list of “related requirements” in clause 81 to include pro-competition order directions. The Competition and Markets Authority has the power to impose directions on a firm with strategic market status to take specific action to come into regulatory compliance with a PCO, under section 87 of the Enterprise Act 2002.

As currently drafted, a nominated officer would not be responsible for a direction issued in relation to a PCO because this is not listed as a “related requirement”. The amendment will clarify that nominated officers will be responsible for directions issued in relation to a PCO to which they are assigned by the SMS firm, and that compliance reports in clause 82 will have to cover these directions. The amendment will ensure that the digital markets unit is able to monitor whether an undertaking is complying with directions issued in relation to a PCO. I hope that the Committee will accept the amendment.

Clauses 81 places requirements on SMS firms to assign appropriate senior managers as “nominated officers” to monitor compliance with specific regulatory requirements. That will help to facilitate co-operation between SMS firms and the DMU and ensure that information included in compliance reports is accurate and complete, and that reports are submitted to the DMU in a timely manner. SMS firms will be required to assign nominated officers in respect of each conduct requirement, pro-competition order or commitment made in lieu of a pro-competition order. A nominated officer appointed in relation to a conduct requirement will be automatically responsible for overseeing compliance with any subsequent orders that are imposed by the DMU in relation to that conduct requirement.

Clause 82 place requirements on SMS firms to submit compliance reports to the DMU. A compliance reporting obligation can be imposed by the DMU in relation to conduct requirements and PCOs, and can be extended to cover additional requirements related to those requirements, such as an enforcement order in relation to a conduct requirement. Compliance reports can also be imposed when a firm has had a binding commitment accepted by the DMU, in lieu of the DMU imposing a pro-competition order. A compliance report will include details of how the firm has complied and will continue to comply with the regulatory requirement and any related requirements. Reports will also set out the extent to which the nominated officer assigned to the particular regulatory requirement considers that the firm has complied with that requirement. Information in compliance reports will be essential to the DMU’s assessment of whether an SMS firm is complying with the regime, and will enable the DMU to take swift where it identifies risk of non-compliance.

[Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to speak to the amendment and clauses on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd, and I will be brief. Government amendment makes a requirement in a direction under section 87 of the Enterprise Act, given by virtue of a pro-competition order a related requirement for the purposes of clause 82.

Labour supports clause 81, which requires a designated undertaking to assign an appropriate senior manager to the role of “nominated officer” when the CMA imposes a digital markets requirement, for the purpose of monitoring the undertaking’s compliance with that requirement. We strongly believe this level of personal liability is required for big tech firms, which have dominated for too long, to listen and engage fully with this regime. We welcome clarity such as that in subsection (2), which sets out the tasks of the nominated officer and requires them to carry out those tasks in relation to

“digital markets requirements and all related requirements”.

It makes sense that if a nominated officer is assigned to a conduct requirement, they are automatically assigned to any subsequent enforcement orders made in connection to it. We therefore support clause 81 and have not sought to amend it at this stage.

Government amendment 25 makes a change to the Enterprise Act to bring the provisions in line with the current Bill. We support its inclusion. It is vital that existing legislation is brought in line if this regime is going to work to its full effect.

Labour sees compliance reports and the formal duties outlined in clause 82, which ultimately require designated undertakings to provide the CMA with reports setting out how they are complying with requirements imposed upon them, as a natural step in the implementation of this regime. For transparency, accountability and fairness all round it is right that the CMA has a duty to notify a designated undertaking of any compliance reporting requirements and will specify in the notice when reports should be submitted, what information they should contain and what form they should take. Labour has long called for those powers, and we have also argued that they should be flexible, so we are pleased to see provisions that allow the CMA to alter the reporting requirements on a designated undertaking by giving the undertaking a further notice.

Specifically interesting to see in the Bill are the provisions around subsection (5), which permit the CMA to require a designated undertaking to publish a compliance report or a summary of that report. Will the Minister confirm the form and the location that he feels would be suitable for such reports to be published?

We recognise that the provisions in clause 82 allow for the version the designated undertaking is required to publish to be different from the version provided in private to the CMA under subsection (1). For example, some information may be redacted for confidentiality purposes. It is still unclear, though, exactly where the report will be published, so it would be helpful to have the Minister’s response on that point.

[Paul Scully]

The CMA could ask for a public version to be published on its website. It will be reported to the firm in full, but the majority of the publication in all such things will be online.

Amendment 25 agreed to.

Clause 81, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 82 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 83

Penalties for failure to comply with competition requirements

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Scully]

Government amendment 26 seeks to clarify that the CMA can impose a penalty on a former SMS firm that no longer has strategic market status in relation to conduct that occurred before the designation ended or in relation to breaches of obligations that exist after the designation ends. With that aim, the amendment, together with its related amendments, replace the wording “a designated undertaking” with “an undertaking” in clauses 83 and 86. That ensures the change relates to penalties for failure to comply with competition requirements, as well as any penalties for failure to comply with investigative requirements. I hope the Committee will support the amendments.

[Seema Malhotra]

I thank the Minister for his remarks. We certainly support these Government amendments, and I will reserve the rest of my comments for the clause stand part debate.

Amendment 26 agreed to.

Amendments made: 27, in clause 83, page 50, line 23, leave out “a designated” and insert “an”.

See the explanatory statement for Amendment 26.

Amendment 28, in clause 83, page 50, line 24, leave out “designated”.

See the explanatory statement for Amendment 26.

Amendment 29, in clause 83, page 50, line 26, leave out “a designated” and insert “an”.

See the explanatory statement for Amendment 26.

Amendment 30, in clause 83, page 50, line 28, leave out “designated”. —(Paul Scully.)

See the explanatory statement for Amendment 26.

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss clauses 84 to 90 stand part.

--- Later in debate ---

Clause 90 ensures that a person cannot be punished twice for the same breach where both criminal and civil punishments are available in the regime. The clause sets out that where a person has been found guilty of a criminal offence, the DMU cannot impose a civil penalty on them for the same act or omission. It also sets out the reverse: where a person has paid a civil penalty for an act of the kind referenced under clause 85—penalties for failure to comply with investigative requirements—they cannot be criminally convicted for that same offence. However, the clause does not prevent criminal or civil proceedings from being started where, respectively, a penalty has been imposed but not paid or someone has been charged but not convicted.

[Seema Malhotra]

It is a pleasure to speak to this group of amendments on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd, who is still in the debate in the Chamber. As we know, the clause sets out that the CMA can impose monetary penalties on a designated undertaking where it is satisfied that the undertaking has breached a regulatory requirement, including for merger reporting and commitments, without reasonable excuse.

The clause’s wording affords substantial flexibility. Indeed, the provisions are in place only when the designated undertaking has failed to comply “without reasonable excuse”. None of us wants designated firms to be able to block action with excuses, so it would be helpful to hear how the Minister would quantify a reasonable excuse. That said, the Opposition welcome the clause, which is central to the regime. The ability to impose a penalty where appropriate is an important power that we hope will go some way towards encouraging companies to work with the regulator. For those reasons, we will not oppose it.

I turn to amendments 26 to 33, some of which we have already debated. It is helpful that we have made those amendments to ensure that a penalty can be imposed on an undertaking that was once designated and therefore captured by the regime but now no longer to subject to it. That will assist in capturing historical offences of failure to comply and goes to the heart of the importance of compliance.

Clause 84 outlines the maximum penalties that the CMA can impose. As we know, the CMA can impose penalties of up to 10% of worldwide turnover and, in the case of breaches of orders or commitments, of up to 5% of daily worldwide turnover for each day that a breach continues. Subsections (2) and (3) state that the CMA will, in most situations, have the discretion to choose whether to impose a fixed penalty, a daily-rate penalty or both. However, where an undertaking breaches a conduct requirement as opposed to an enforcement order or breaches any requirements under chapter 5 on mergers, the CMA will be able to impose only a fixed penalty.

The Opposition welcome these provisions. They afford the CMA flexibility and discretion, and we believe that financial penalties are an important power for any regulator to be able to impose. We therefore support the clause and do not seek to amend it. As with other formal liabilities, Labour believes that the CMA absolutely should be able to impose penalties on designated undertakings or individuals within them for failing to comply with certain investigative requirements. The powers are important to the regime and we welcome their inclusion.

In addition, clarity on exactly what will constitute, or be defined as failure to comply, is also helpful. We know that actions such as providing false or misleading information in the course of an investigation, or in relation to compliance reporting, will fall under this definition. That is a sensible approach, which we support.

Furthermore, clause 85(2) clearly sets out the circumstances in which the CMA can impose civil sanctions against either a named senior manager assigned to an information request or a nominated officer with relation to a compliance report. We feel that that personal duty is crucial to the success of the regime, as we hope that it will act as a deterrent, as companies will want to avoid personal duties, and that such a level of personal liability is crucial for SMS firms to take the CMA’s powers and regulatory regime seriously. We therefore support clause 85 and its intentions and believe it should stand part of the Bill.

Clause 86 establishes the maximum fixed and daily rate penalties that the CMA can impose under clause 85 on undertakings and individuals. As outlined in clause 86(3), under the provisions, the CMA may impose a fixed penalty on an undertaking of up to 1% of the undertaking’s worldwide turnover, or a daily penalty of up to 5% of the undertaking’s daily worldwide turnover for each day of non-compliance, or both. Similarly, subsection (6) sets out that the CMA may impose a fixed penalty on an individual of up to £30,000, or a daily penalty of £15,000, or both. We welcome that clarity on the face of the Bill. Labour has been clear for some time now that financial penalties are vital for compliance, and that the CMA must have the statutory footing to be able to impose them in the most severe cases of non-compliance.

We further note clause 86(7) to (9), setting out that the Secretary of State has the power to amend the maximum amounts of penalty that can be imposed on an individual. Naturally, that is a point that I must press the Minister on: in what circumstances does he imagine that the Secretary of State would make such changes? It is an interesting power to ascribe to one individual, therefore we welcome subsection (8), which states that the Secretary of State must consult the CMA and such other persons as the Secretary of State considers appropriate before making the regulations. We therefore support clause 86 and believe it should stand part of the Bill unamended. Labour sees clause 86 as fairly procedural, setting out which sections of the Enterprise Act 2002 apply for penalties imposed under clause 83 or clause 85 of the Bill.

I will keep my comments on clause 87 brief as we see it as clarification rather than contentious, in particular given that we agree with the Government’s approach more broadly on enforcement and appeals. My one plea to the Minister is that he and his colleagues in the Department do not bow down to likely pressure from big SMS firms.

We appreciate that in recent months we have faced headlines about some tech companies threatening to withdraw from the UK if provisions on online safety become—as they see it—too cumbersome. However, when it comes to regulating the online space more widely, whether in our digital markets or through safety provisions, we know that companies have remained unregulated for too long, and that that is having a massive impact on consumers. That applies to all of us in Committee and the hundreds of thousands of constituents across the country we represent. That said, we support clause 87 and have not sought to amend it.

Clause 88, too, we see as fairly standard, in that it sets out exactly how the CMA will calculate daily rates and turnover for the purpose of imposing a monetary penalty. This clause clarifies that daily penalties will accumulate until the person complies with the requirement—for example that the requested information is provided—or, where the penalty is incurred in relation to an overseas investigation, when the overseas regulator no longer requires assistance.

Labour further welcomes the fact that clause 88 will give the CMA the discretion to determine an earlier date for the amount payable in order to prevent that amount from accumulating. We of course hope that application of the provisions will rarely be required, but they are welcome additions to have on the face of the Bill.

Lastly, we note that clause 88(2) to (4) gives the Secretary of State the power to specify how turnover is calculated in secondary legislation. Again, I would welcome some clarity on this point. I wonder whether the Minister can further clarify in exactly what circumstances he envisions these powers will be required and, if he can confirm whether, when the Secretary of State has to draw upon those powers, what action will be taken to ensure the secondary legislation required is not subject to further delay? That point aside, we understand the need for clause 88 and welcome its inclusion in the Bill.

Clause 89 is important in that it places a statutory duty on the CMA to prepare and publish a statement of policy in relation to the exercise of powers to impose a penalty under clauses 83 and 85. In doing so, the statement must include considerations around whether a penalty should be imposed, as well as details of the nature and amount of any such penalty. We welcome the provisions in subsection (3) that confirm that the CMA may revise its statement of policy and, where it does so, must publish the revised statement.

We also feel that the requirement of the CMA to consult the Secretary of State before publishing a statement is an important step. However, Labour feels some clarity is needed here to establish exactly when and where that statement will be published. Will the Minister confirm the timelines for when the CMA will be required to publish the statements? It is important that there is no delay; any specific timelines will be gratefully received. Following those assurances from the Minister, I am sure we will be happy to support the clause standing part of the Bill.

Lastly, we see clause 90 as a standard clarification that ensures that where a person has been found guilty of a criminal offence committed under clauses 91, 92 or 93, which we will soon debate, they will not be required to pay a civil penalty for that same offence. It is also right that where a person has paid a civil penalty for an act of the kind referenced under clause 85, they cannot be criminally convicted for that same offence. We also welcome the clarity that the clause does not prevent criminal or civil proceedings from being started where, respectively, a penalty has been imposed but not paid or someone has been charged but not convicted.

Again, we hope that these clauses will never have to be enforced in reality, but they are important additions and Labour support them, given the importance of ensuring the CMA has the teeth to implement this regulatory regime in full.

[Paul Scully]

The hon. Lady mentioned “without reasonable excuse”. The onus is on SMS firms to prove that they have an excuse for committing a breach. That approach reflects the bespoke targeted nature of the regime, which means that firms should be fully aware of whether they are compliant. That same threshold is used in the competition regime already for breaches of specific directions and commitments; other prohibitions in the competition regime are more high level than any other obligations within the digital markets regime, making it harder for firms to assess their own compliance and therefore requiring a different legal threshold.

On updating penalty limits, and the Secretary of State’s power to do so, it is important that the new regulatory regime is agile, flexible and can be adapted to changing circumstances. The power is the same as is already used under the Enterprise Act 2002, which ensures consistency across the legislation and will ensure that the power remains an effective enforcement mechanism in the future. The Secretary of State must consult the DMU and other persons before making changes to the penalty levels. Importantly, proposed changes will be subject to the affirmative procedure and will need to be approved in Parliament. Another hon. Member asked about where the policy will be published; again, that will be online and in full. Clearly, that will be as soon as is practicable, because we want to keep the pace of the policy as fast as possible, in order to keep up to date with any detriment to especially challenging tech, and obviously to consumers as a consequence.

The hon. Member for Feltham and Heston asked about the power to update turnover and how that might be calculated. It is really important that in this area the regulatory regime remains agile and flexible, and granting the Secretary of State the power to specify how turnover is calculated in secondary legislation will allow any future changes in accounting principles, for example, to be taken into account to ensure that these calculations remain relevant. Again, that power is the same as that already used under section 94A of the Enterprise Act 2002, ensuring consistency across the two pieces of legislation.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 83, as amended, accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 84 and 85 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 86

Amount of penalties under section 85

Amendments made: 31, in clause 86, page 52, line 29, leave out “a designated” and insert “an”.

See the explanatory statement for Amendment 26.

Amendment 32, in clause 86, page 52, line 31, leave out “designated”.

See the explanatory statement for Amendment 26.

Amendment 33, in clause 86, page 52, line 33, leave out “designated”.—(Paul Scully.)

See the explanatory statement for Amendment 26.

Clause 86, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 87 to 90 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Mike Wood.)

Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill (Fifth sitting)

Seema Malhotra Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 20th June 2023 Public Bill Committees

Clause 7 sets out the turnover condition. It ensures that the DMU cannot designate a firm as having SMS in a digital activity unless the DMU estimates that the firm’s, or group’s, global or UK turnover exceeds minimum thresholds. The clause also gives the Secretary of State the power to amend the turnover thresholds by regulations subject to the affirmative procedure. It ensures that only firms with a 12-month turnover of more than £1 billion in the UK or £25 billion globally are in scope of the regime.

[Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Minister may have explained this elsewhere, but I am wondering about the thresholds of £1 billion and £25 billion. Will those thresholds be assessed over time, because firms’ turnover and so on can change from year to year? When is the point at which assessment is made, and will the threshold change subsequently if turnover drops?

[Paul Scully]

The hon. Lady makes a good point, which relates to what my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland said about fluctuation of turnover and what companies may do with their turnover. It might be a good time to tackle that.

First, the turnover of the whole corporate group needs to be considered. That approach will help to avoid complications in revenue allocation, which could result in firms avoiding investigation and designation by virtue of their corporate structure or accounting practices. The DMU will be able to consider the past two periods of 12 months, not just the more recent one when calculating turnover—that should cover fluctuations, which the hon. Member for Feltham and Heston asked about. Markets can fluctuate, and turnover is not the same as market power; it is just part of the definition. The flexibility will also reduce the likelihood of the figures being manipulated and circumvented for the purposes of the turnover threshold.

Importantly, the use of the turnover thresholds will provide certainty to the vast majority of firms that they cannot be in scope of the regime, as they will easily be able to determine that their turnover is below the thresholds. However, if a firm meets the turnover threshold that does not necessarily mean that it will be subject to an investigation. The DMU will also need to have reasonable grounds to consider that the firm meets the two SMS conditions in respect of a digital activity that is linked to the UK—that is, that it has substantial and entrenched market power, and a position of strategic significance in respect of that activity.

Clause 7 will give power to the Secretary of State to amend those thresholds. That will ensure that they remain relevant as digital markets develop, evolve and grow over time. The DMU will be required to keep the thresholds under review and advise the Secretary of State whether they are still appropriate. The Government anticipate that the DMU may take into account factors such as inflation and currency fluctuation when doing so, using its expertise and while having its finger on the pulse of digital markets. As was the case for clause 6, the affirmative resolution procedure is the appropriate mechanism, as this is a significant power that would alter the scope of the regime.

Clause 8 relates to the turnover condition and sets out further details about the meaning of global and UK turnover. Any activity of the firm will be considered when estimating global turnover. Both digital and non-digital activities will be considered, making it easier for firms to know whether they are in scope without having to distinguish between different types of activity.

For UK turnover, any activity of the firm will be considered, but the turnover must relate to UK users or UK customers. The clause also gives the Secretary of State the power to make provision about how turnover should be estimated, including provision about amounts that should or should not be regarded as comprising turnover. That level of detail would not be suitable for primary legislation. We believe a negative procedure is most appropriate because of the technical and non-controversial nature of any regulations.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 3 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 4 to 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 9

Initial SMS investigations

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill (Fourth sitting)

Seema Malhotra Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 15th June 2023 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Q 161 Good afternoon. We will now hear oral evidence, for the 13th panel, from Kelli Fairbrother, co-founder and CEO of xigxag, and Christian Owens, founder and executive chairman of Paddle. We will have until 2.30 pm. Could the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?

Kelli Fairbrother: I am Kelli Fairbrother. I am the co-founder and CEO of xigxag.

Christian Owens: And I am Christian Owens. I am the founder and executive chairman of Paddle.

[Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q Thank you very much for coming to give evidence to us this afternoon. If you could say a few words about your businesses—what they actually do and what your services actually are—when answering, that would be helpful.

I know that both of your businesses are players in the digital market sector. It would be useful to understand, with some illustrative examples, how the current market dominance of a few large tech companies affects how you do your business, and how it has perhaps affected how you have been able to innovate and the costs of innovation. Perhaps we can hear from Ms Fairbrother first?

Kelli Fairbrother: I lead an independent business based in Cornwall that is challenging the incumbents’ dominance of digital books, which we believe have not been innovated on in decades. Our aim is to create an exceptional digital book experience that keeps young people engaged in books, makes books more accessible to the one in five people who struggle with traditional reading, and saves the 320 million or so books that end up in landfill every year.

The challenge that we face as a fast-growing, innovative business is that Apple and Google use their dominant positions in the mobile device and mobile app ecosystem as a means of forcing themselves into transactions between us and our customers. They do that to us in two ways: they force us to distribute our apps through the app stores, then, because we are distributed through the app stores, they force us to use their in-app payment services when we want to enable our customers to buy in-app, which is clearly the most obvious way in which customers would expect to transact with us, as we are an app-led business. They also prevent us from using alternative providers such as Paddle, which is a great UK business that we would love to use.

The challenge that that creates is that, by forcing us to use their in-app payment systems, they charge us about five to 10 times more than we would pay in the free and fair online payments ecosystem—we would be paying about 3%, versus the 15% to 30% they charge—and they pay us our own revenue at least a month late. That is our own revenue—

[Seema Malhotra]

Q “At least a month”? How long could that take?

Kelli Fairbrother: For example, the revenue that I earned on 1 January this year I did not earn back from Apple until 9 March. By comparison, on average, online payments are paid to us in about seven days on a regular basis. The fees are effectively allocating all of the costs and generating excess profits from a minority of people who use the system to deliver digital content and services, which happen to compete with Apple and Google’s content services businesses. The behaviour you see in the market is the result of this behaviour. Companies either need to charge more for in-app purchase or they force customers on to a web experience to redeem their content in the app.

You heard earlier from Match explaining the difference between Uber and Match. It is the same. If I were selling physical books, I would not be subject to a 30% tax, even if I were selling them through the app, so that is interesting. As a very early-stage business, this hit to our margin and our cash flow is especially precarious. As you can imagine, it makes it difficult to access investment, especially in what is a very difficult fundraising environment at the moment.

The other thing we observe is that, as a non-subscription-based business, the app stores are not really fit for purpose for our needs. Up until about a month ago, we were allowed to choose—we have a catalogue of 50,000 titles—from approximately 90 price points, from 99p up to about 1,000. Our customers receive invoices that say, “Audiobook: £7.99”. They do not give them any more detail, which makes it difficult to know which books they have bought and which books they are trying to return. We do not control returns.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q Sorry, could I ask a question on this? You are given 90 price points by Apple and you have to choose them. Then Apple effectively does the marketing. If they say what it is, you cannot say anything extra about the products.

Kelli Fairbrother: In the receipts, yes, that is correct. I cannot merchandise—what we would call merchandise—or allocate the receipt to a particular title that the person bought to allow for the ability to reconcile transactions. It is not possible on Apple. Again, it is not fit for purpose. The way that the system works is that it is delivering you a receipt that says, “Audiobook: £7.99”. Those are the limitations of the system. Any discussion of it being a competitive product is quite misleading.

They offer us no control over our returns. Although there is some ability to control returns through the Apple system, it is difficult to understand exactly the process by which we are allowed to challenge returns. My co-founder is among the best in the world of digital media tech, a former director of production technology at ITV, and he is constantly frustrated by the limitations of the app store APIs. We get very little visibility into the transactions from Apple and Google. Our model for in-app payment where we sell these multiple thousands of different products is terribly supported by Apple and Google. We believe that it is either unintentionally—through neglect—unsupported, or intentionally, trying to force our customers to be on a subscription model.

[Seema Malhotra]

I will have to move on.

Christian Owens: I started Paddle about 11 years ago to help small software companies and developers to sell their products internationally. Today, we do that for around 5,000 businesses, a number of which are based in the UK. We provide payment services. We help those businesses to take payments all around the world and to pay local taxes and be compliant with the various regulations of wherever it is they sell.

For the last 10 years we have had constant inbound from our customers—who we support by processing payments and paying their taxes for them online for the web or desktop-based version of their products—saying, “Why can’t I use Paddle for my iOS or Android app?” We have tried on numerous occasions to figure out a solution to that, but we are simply prevented, on the basis of the terms and conditions of the app stores, from allowing those developers to process transactions via any mechanism that is not controlled by Apple and Google. For us, we are explicitly prevented from competing. I have no problem if Apple or Google build a better solution than us—that should win. Today, we are not even allowed to try.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Paul Scully)]

Q I just have just a couple of follow-up questions, because I think I got most of what I need from that. On the merchandise area, you say you cannot get out the receipts. Presumably, you have another mechanism, because you have got to ascribe some of it to the authors, or do you author all the books yourself? How do you process who has bought what on that side of things, rather than the back office bit?

Kelli Fairbrother: We are monitoring, on our own side, the transactions to be able to control entitlements, because we actually have to control the rights of the books for individuals who have purchased them. The risk for us is that a lack of ability to reconcile at the level of an individual transaction actually puts us at a degree of risk, in terms of our ability to manage the 100% accuracy of what we have delivered. The other interesting thing that happens, on the returns side, is that a customer could read the entire book and go to Google and get a return. I am only getting informed of that after the fact; I cannot really challenge the fact that the return was probably invalid. That is another example.

--- Later in debate ---

[Vicky Ford]

Q Christian, do you have any further—?

Christian Owens: No, not any specific details on this.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q On a slightly different area, there were some concerns raised by some Members in the debate on the Bill about the Government changing the appeals process to one based on judicial review, as opposed to a merits-based review. How important, in your view, is that, and what would you want to see if the Bill progresses through Parliament?

Kelli Fairbrother: It is absolutely critical that judicial review is the standard that is used, because I think we have seen time and time again, in markets all around the world, that when Governments act, Apple and Google do their best to try to get around the work that is being done. They lawyer up—they have millions to spend on appeals slowing things down—and there really is a sense of urgency. This is existential for a lot of small app developers, so we would really urge that the Bill passes, it is not watered down and it passes without delay and without dilution, I think we would say.

Christian Owens: I agree.

[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

Q I have just downloaded your app, so you have got another customer there.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Thank you very much for coming, and welcome. We will now hear oral evidence from Tom Morrison-Bell, Government affairs and public policy manager at Google. We have until 2.45 pm. Could the witness please introduce himself for the record?

Tom Morrison-Bell: I am Tom Morrison-Bell. I am a public policy manager at Google, and I work on a range of competition and media policy issues.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q Thank you very much for coming to give evidence today. A 2019 Competition and Markets Authority report found that Google enjoyed over a 90% share in the search advertising market in the UK. Would you accept the argument that such a significant market share is to all intents and purposes a monopoly that hinders growth and innovation?

Tom Morrison-Bell: Thank you for the question. Let me just take a step back and look at how search and this question fit in with the current regime. A huge amount of consumer benefit comes from products such as Google Search. By and large, Google’s products are free, and there are also paid services that support around 700,000 small businesses in the UK. If you look at the financial aspects of search—so, advertising—the revenues generated are in a very small subsection of that. The market might be e-commerce or retail, for example, rather than general search. If you look at retail—people will place an ad next to a keyword such as “buy trainers”—you will see in the market that most retail searches do not start on Google Search. Also, advertising revenues on other e-commerce platforms are growing much faster than Google. So it is important to understand it specifically: yes, there is a general search engine, but in the case of markets, that can often be a different story.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q I want to understand whether you accept that there is a problem with the effective monopoly. In terms of growth and innovation in the sector, I am keen to understand whether you have a view about some of the evidence, which you may have heard, that constraints are effectively a hindrance to innovation. One example, which we have just heard, is about the ways in which other payment systems are prohibited and about the costs associated with having apps in Google. Are some of those behaviours, and the way in which Google is interacting, inhibiting innovation and costing the consumer more in turn?

Tom Morrison-Bell: With respect, I do believe that Google is one of the most innovative companies and largest investors in innovation. Between 2018 and 2022, Google spent $145 billion on research and development. That includes amazing stuff that happens here in the UK. For example, Google DeepMind, which is probably the world’s foremost artificial intelligence research institute, is based here and is solving incredible problems such as protein folding.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q I accept and recognise the innovation that Google brings. The Bill is addressing specific issues around market power and the dominance of big tech. Perhaps you could give us your more general views about the Bill and what your concerns are.

Tom Morrison-Bell: Yes, I can. I am happy to touch on some of those issues with regard to the Bill. As you will have heard by now, the Bill gives very extensive powers to the DMU that will be highly discretionary and very open-ended. That is how the Bill has been drafted. In Google’s case, those will be powers to direct how complex products are designed, and critically the regime will be forward-looking rather than backward-looking, which is how traditional competition policy works. As I have said, Google’s products and services drive a huge amount of consumer benefit in the UK, and these markets are fast-moving and complex.

With the Bill specifically, our key point is that in relation to products that provide a substantial amount of consumer benefit, that are innovative and that are complex, it is important that these very open-ended powers for the regulator have appropriate checks and balances. I wanted to bring to the Committee three specific areas in which we think the Bill can be strengthened. I am sure that you will have heard about these in other sessions.

First, I think there are strong grounds for making sure that the appeals standard is aligned with that in the Competition Act 1998, which is appeal on the merits as opposed to judicial review. Secondly, the Bill should ensure that consumer benefits can appropriately be considered by the regulator in the regime by adding a bit more coherence to the way the countervailing benefits exemption is constructed. Thirdly, one of the really innovative things that is designed to drive the Government’s ambition of ensuring that it is a speedy regime with innovation at its heart is this idea of a participative approach, whereby all parties involved in the market are encouraged into dialogue with the regulator.

One thing that the Bill provides for is for private cases to be brought before the digital markets unit has found any breach of a requirement on a firm. If that is the case, we think it is important that the digital markets unit is given the opportunity to make the decision first. Otherwise, there is a risk of the courts deciding something and the digital markets unit deciding something else, so that we end up with potentially conflicting compliance requirements on regulated firms.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q I will finish with this question, because I am conscious that colleagues want to come in. In terms of the participative approach, I have cited before the CMA’s dialogue with Google over the Privacy Sandbox policy and their reaching an agreement on how to move forward. I cite that as an example of how the participative process has worked.

I want to come back to a specific point. You have talked about consumer benefit, and I think we all see the consumer benefit that can and does come from the innovation of Google. However, given your dominance and market power, do you accept that the way in which Google works with other companies is actually contributing to consumer harm as well?

Tom Morrison-Bell: As a general statement, no: I would not agree with that, straight up. We deliver huge amounts of consumer benefit. There are numerous areas where we are and have been in dialogue with the CMA. We really want to continue to be able to deliver that.

[Seema Malhotra]

Q So you do not accept any of the examples we have heard of consumer harm.

Tom Morrison-Bell: Well, I think there are some things to unpack. For example, payment systems have been mentioned. We have agreed commitments with the CMA—I believe they are out to market testing at the moment—on offering a range of payment systems. When it comes to app stores, 99% of app users pay 15% or less on fees. There are important details here.

[Paul Scully]

Q Tom, it is good to see you. Thank you very much for coming in front of us. We have had some quite punchy evidence sessions before this, so it is important that we get a balanced view. Obviously you are not here to speak for all of big tech and everything that has been going on. Let me give you a minute or two to give the other side of the argument about how you are benefiting, as you see it, the kinds of companies represented in the previous session and in the session before that.

Tom Morrison-Bell: Generally speaking, Google is estimated to provide around £55 billion of economic activity a year in the UK, as a starting figure. We have multiple products. It depends where you look. Workspace is our productivity suite, with word processing and similar, and is estimated to have saved 600 million hours for workers around the UK through more effective communication and speedier software. As I have said, tools like search and maps are free, and they also support businesses across the country to be more effective. That drives £55 billion in economic activity.

There is also our Play store. Android is open source and a free operating system that is available free to mobile device manufacturers, and they can make their own versions. That has substantially driven down the cost of handsets around the world and has been a huge contributor to making sure that people can have access to the internet at lower rates. The Play store itself is estimated to support about 240,000 developer jobs in the UK alone. That drives revenues for them of about £2.8 billion. Across the board, there is substantial benefit.