Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Nineteeth sitting)

Sojan Joseph Excerpts

Wednesday 5th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Stephen Kinnock]

Yes, I believe so. Photographic ID would be the standard to which we would aspire. I do not know whether there was anything else under her question? I think the answer is yes.

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

Could the Minister clarify whether the requirement for one year of residency in the UK means that a foreign citizen studying at a university here would be able to consider assisted dying?

[Stephen Kinnock]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. We have the term “ordinarily resident” in the UK in clause 1. Obviously if the Committee sees fit to accept the amendment it would change to “resident”, which is a looser term. This matter would also be one for the Home Office, as the custodian of our rules and regulations on immigration, but my sense would be that if we stick with “ordinarily resident” then someone who is not ordinarily resident in the United Kingdom would not qualify for assisted dying.

As the Bill currently stands, the Secretary of State has the power but not the obligation to set these requirements in regulations. This amendment would remove this discretion and require the Secretary of State to specify what forms of ID must be provided.

Amendment 293 ensures that regulations on acceptable forms of proof of identify must be approved by both Houses of Parliament before coming into force, by requiring these regulations to follow the affirmative rather than the negative procedure. As I said earlier, the Government’s position is neutral, but I hope my observations—

--- Later in debate ---

[Rebecca Paul]

Different situations will give a different result. It is a complex situation. We could have a patient who, if they did not have an assisted death, would be on a palliative care pathway, which might not involve as much time from their GP—the assessing doctor, in that instance. If they moved on to the assisted dying pathway, however, the assessment process would need to start, and it has to happen quickly for all the reasons that I have set out.

The Bill relies on doctors being highly conscientious and hard-working, but it also risks taking them for granted if it makes no allowance for the present realities that they face in our healthcare system. This amendment tries to reflect and recognise that.

In November, the hon. Member for Stroud said,

“I have watched with horror as our NHS has gone from being the best health service in the world…to being a service on its knees.”—[Official Report, 6 November 2024; Vol. 756, c. 358.]

If the NHS is to get off its knees, surely we cannot afford for assisted suicide to jeopardise the care of patients who already struggle to get an appointment. We must recognise that there are people out there who cannot get an appointment to see their GP, and reflect that in the Bill.

[Sojan Joseph]

I rise to speak briefly to amendment 296. We all know how the NHS operates, how the appointment system works in the NHS and how long people have to wait to see a doctor. I do not think that my hon. Friend the Member for York Central tabled the amendment with any ill thought, but just to highlight the issue. I do not think that the amendment will make the Bill any safer or stronger, or safeguard anything, but the Committee needs to acknowledge it.

I will quote the Royal College of Physicians, which represents 40,000 doctors who primarily work in hospitals, including on palliative care. The Royal College of Physicians took a neutral position on the Bill. In its written evidence, it highlighted,

“We recognise that the ultimate decision on assisted dying rests with society through Parliament, however any changes to the law will significantly affect clinical practice beyond palliative care…Should the law change, the RCP strongly argues that assisted dying must not divert resources from end of life and palliative care provision, which are not currently adequate.”

With amendment 296, my hon. Friend the Member for York Central is trying to get the Committee to acknowledge that some NHS departments work with vacancies of 50 medical professionals. A patient who has been waiting for six months should not have their appointment cancelled because the provision here is prioritised. I think that is what my hon. Friend meant with her amendment, and I commend her thought about wider NHS provision.

[Danny Kruger]

I appreciate the point that the hon. Gentleman is making, and that he will not be able to support the amendment, but does he acknowledge that its purpose is to clarify the triage process that needs to be done by doctors? It is a perfectly appropriate request to make of doctors.

[Sojan Joseph]

I agree. It highlights the point that the impact assessment will be very important here, to see from where the resources are being pulled to provide this. The Committee should acknowledge amendment 296.

[Stephen Kinnock]

These amendments introduce requirements on the timing within which the co-ordinating doctor must carry out a first assessment once the first declaration is made by a person. I will turn first to amendment 296. As currently drafted, clause 7(1) requires that the co-ordinating doctor must carry out a first assessment

“as soon as reasonably practicable”

after a person has made a first declaration. Amendment 296 would require that after the first declaration is made, the co-ordinating doctor must arrange a mutually convenient time and date for the first assessment to take place, but it removes the stipulation that the assessment must be carried out as soon as reasonably practicable. The amendment would also require the date and time agreed not to jeopardise the care of other patients. The effect of the amendment may be to lengthen the period between the first declaration and the first assessment, in some cases.

Amendments 127 to 141 seek to ensure that the assessments, declarations and statements made throughout the Bill are finalised and recorded within 10 working days of being started. The amendments achieve this by inserting the term “within 10 working days” in place of

“as soon as reasonably practicable”

in clauses 7, 8, 16, 17, 21 and 22. This would put in place a time-bound limit that the medical practitioner must adhere to when carrying out the first and second assessments, when recording information in medical records at various stages, including the High Court declaration, and when recording other matters in medical records.

Our assessment suggests that in most circumstances, although it would depend on the facts of a particular case, the requirement to do an action as soon as practicable would generally amount to a requirement to do the action sooner than in 10 working days’ time. In terms of the operational effects, having a set timeline may give greater certainty to individuals seeking assistance. However, it may limit doctors’ discretion to set the timeline based around the patient’s wishes. These are matters for the Committee to weigh up and consider.

--- Later in debate ---

[Daniel Francis]

I agree. An assessment by a specialist would protect patients and give another opportunity to spot coercion—something that we all want to safeguard against.

I welcome the acceptance of amendment 20, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Jess Asato), ensuring that doctors will be better trained to spot these issues, but that is only the start. We need the same in-depth assessment that living organ donors would get. Patients must fully understand the decision they are taking, and doctors must be convinced that they are capable of making it.

For organ donation, the NHS recommends that potential donors meet a mental health professional at an early stage, particularly in cases where people have a history of mental illness. As we have already noted, those diagnosed with terminal illnesses are likely to also have mental health issues. Dr Sarah Cox, in her oral evidence, cited a study by Professor Louis Appleby, the Government’s suicide prevention adviser. Dr Cox said:

“If we look at the evidence of suicide, we know that it is increased in people with serious illnesses.”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 28 January 2025; c. 82, Q105.]

[Sojan Joseph]

We have discussed this issue many times. Within the Bill there is a provision for clinicians to refer to a psychiatrist if in any doubt. Does the hon. Member think that having that conversation at an earlier stage would be beneficial, rather than at a later stage?

[Daniel Francis]

I agree with my hon. Friend about the number of amendments in this vein, but clearly the amendments suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch bring us into line with existing regulations. In her evidence, Dr Cox said:

“If we look at the evidence of suicide, we know that it is increased in people with serious illnesses, but it is actually increased in the first six months after diagnosis, not in the last six months of their lives, so it is about the trauma of the diagnosis.”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 28 January 2025; c. 82, Q105.]

It is likely, therefore, that those diagnosed with a terminal illness will experience mental distress that could affect their capacity to make a decision about an assisted death. In her written evidence, Dr Virginia Goncalves, a retired clinical psychiatrist with over 30 years of experience in the NHS, writes:

“In my consultant psychiatrist role, I have encountered many desperate and suicidal patients wanting to end their lives after struggling with longstanding mental distress, who could have easily sought the option of assisted suicide if it had been available to them! But however depressed and hopeless they felt, with a compassionate and hope filled approach from their care givers and the correct medical and psychological treatment, the vast majority recovered enough to be able to have a ‘life worth living’. In so many cases, these patients have thanked me later for not giving up on them! Not once have I heard anyone say ‘you should have let me die when I wanted to do it’.”

A meeting with a psychiatrist or other psychological specialist will protect people who may otherwise not have chosen assisted dying. I emphasise again that we already ensure that patients who will donate an organ have this assessment, so why not those seeking an assisted death? We must protect vulnerable terminally ill people from being coerced into assisted death, and psychiatrists and other specialists are best placed to spot that. That is why the assessment is included for living organ donation.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Nineteeth sitting)

Sojan Joseph Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 5th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Stephen Kinnock]

Yes, I believe so. Photographic ID would be the standard to which we would aspire. I do not know whether there was anything else under her question? I think the answer is yes.

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

Could the Minister clarify whether the requirement for one year of residency in the UK means that a foreign citizen studying at a university here would be able to consider assisted dying?

[Stephen Kinnock]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. We have the term “ordinarily resident” in the UK in clause 1. Obviously if the Committee sees fit to accept the amendment it would change to “resident”, which is a looser term. This matter would also be one for the Home Office, as the custodian of our rules and regulations on immigration, but my sense would be that if we stick with “ordinarily resident” then someone who is not ordinarily resident in the United Kingdom would not qualify for assisted dying.

As the Bill currently stands, the Secretary of State has the power but not the obligation to set these requirements in regulations. This amendment would remove this discretion and require the Secretary of State to specify what forms of ID must be provided.

Amendment 293 ensures that regulations on acceptable forms of proof of identify must be approved by both Houses of Parliament before coming into force, by requiring these regulations to follow the affirmative rather than the negative procedure. As I said earlier, the Government’s position is neutral, but I hope my observations—

--- Later in debate ---

[Rebecca Paul]

Different situations will give a different result. It is a complex situation. We could have a patient who, if they did not have an assisted death, would be on a palliative care pathway, which might not involve as much time from their GP—the assessing doctor, in that instance. If they moved on to the assisted dying pathway, however, the assessment process would need to start, and it has to happen quickly for all the reasons that I have set out.

The Bill relies on doctors being highly conscientious and hard-working, but it also risks taking them for granted if it makes no allowance for the present realities that they face in our healthcare system. This amendment tries to reflect and recognise that.

In November, the hon. Member for Stroud said,

“I have watched with horror as our NHS has gone from being the best health service in the world…to being a service on its knees.”—[Official Report, 6 November 2024; Vol. 756, c. 358.]

If the NHS is to get off its knees, surely we cannot afford for assisted suicide to jeopardise the care of patients who already struggle to get an appointment. We must recognise that there are people out there who cannot get an appointment to see their GP, and reflect that in the Bill.

[Sojan Joseph]

I rise to speak briefly to amendment 296. We all know how the NHS operates, how the appointment system works in the NHS and how long people have to wait to see a doctor. I do not think that my hon. Friend the Member for York Central tabled the amendment with any ill thought, but just to highlight the issue. I do not think that the amendment will make the Bill any safer or stronger, or safeguard anything, but the Committee needs to acknowledge it.

I will quote the Royal College of Physicians, which represents 40,000 doctors who primarily work in hospitals, including on palliative care. The Royal College of Physicians took a neutral position on the Bill. In its written evidence, it highlighted,

“We recognise that the ultimate decision on assisted dying rests with society through Parliament, however any changes to the law will significantly affect clinical practice beyond palliative care…Should the law change, the RCP strongly argues that assisted dying must not divert resources from end of life and palliative care provision, which are not currently adequate.”

With amendment 296, my hon. Friend the Member for York Central is trying to get the Committee to acknowledge that some NHS departments work with vacancies of 50 medical professionals. A patient who has been waiting for six months should not have their appointment cancelled because the provision here is prioritised. I think that is what my hon. Friend meant with her amendment, and I commend her thought about wider NHS provision.

[Danny Kruger]

I appreciate the point that the hon. Gentleman is making, and that he will not be able to support the amendment, but does he acknowledge that its purpose is to clarify the triage process that needs to be done by doctors? It is a perfectly appropriate request to make of doctors.

[Sojan Joseph]

I agree. It highlights the point that the impact assessment will be very important here, to see from where the resources are being pulled to provide this. The Committee should acknowledge amendment 296.

[Stephen Kinnock]

These amendments introduce requirements on the timing within which the co-ordinating doctor must carry out a first assessment once the first declaration is made by a person. I will turn first to amendment 296. As currently drafted, clause 7(1) requires that the co-ordinating doctor must carry out a first assessment

“as soon as reasonably practicable”

after a person has made a first declaration. Amendment 296 would require that after the first declaration is made, the co-ordinating doctor must arrange a mutually convenient time and date for the first assessment to take place, but it removes the stipulation that the assessment must be carried out as soon as reasonably practicable. The amendment would also require the date and time agreed not to jeopardise the care of other patients. The effect of the amendment may be to lengthen the period between the first declaration and the first assessment, in some cases.

Amendments 127 to 141 seek to ensure that the assessments, declarations and statements made throughout the Bill are finalised and recorded within 10 working days of being started. The amendments achieve this by inserting the term “within 10 working days” in place of

“as soon as reasonably practicable”

in clauses 7, 8, 16, 17, 21 and 22. This would put in place a time-bound limit that the medical practitioner must adhere to when carrying out the first and second assessments, when recording information in medical records at various stages, including the High Court declaration, and when recording other matters in medical records.

Our assessment suggests that in most circumstances, although it would depend on the facts of a particular case, the requirement to do an action as soon as practicable would generally amount to a requirement to do the action sooner than in 10 working days’ time. In terms of the operational effects, having a set timeline may give greater certainty to individuals seeking assistance. However, it may limit doctors’ discretion to set the timeline based around the patient’s wishes. These are matters for the Committee to weigh up and consider.

--- Later in debate ---

[Daniel Francis]

I agree. An assessment by a specialist would protect patients and give another opportunity to spot coercion—something that we all want to safeguard against.

I welcome the acceptance of amendment 20, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Jess Asato), ensuring that doctors will be better trained to spot these issues, but that is only the start. We need the same in-depth assessment that living organ donors would get. Patients must fully understand the decision they are taking, and doctors must be convinced that they are capable of making it.

For organ donation, the NHS recommends that potential donors meet a mental health professional at an early stage, particularly in cases where people have a history of mental illness. As we have already noted, those diagnosed with terminal illnesses are likely to also have mental health issues. Dr Sarah Cox, in her oral evidence, cited a study by Professor Louis Appleby, the Government’s suicide prevention adviser. Dr Cox said:

“If we look at the evidence of suicide, we know that it is increased in people with serious illnesses.”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 28 January 2025; c. 82, Q105.]

[Sojan Joseph]

We have discussed this issue many times. Within the Bill there is a provision for clinicians to refer to a psychiatrist if in any doubt. Does the hon. Member think that having that conversation at an earlier stage would be beneficial, rather than at a later stage?

[Daniel Francis]

I agree with my hon. Friend about the number of amendments in this vein, but clearly the amendments suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch bring us into line with existing regulations. In her evidence, Dr Cox said:

“If we look at the evidence of suicide, we know that it is increased in people with serious illnesses, but it is actually increased in the first six months after diagnosis, not in the last six months of their lives, so it is about the trauma of the diagnosis.”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 28 January 2025; c. 82, Q105.]

It is likely, therefore, that those diagnosed with a terminal illness will experience mental distress that could affect their capacity to make a decision about an assisted death. In her written evidence, Dr Virginia Goncalves, a retired clinical psychiatrist with over 30 years of experience in the NHS, writes:

“In my consultant psychiatrist role, I have encountered many desperate and suicidal patients wanting to end their lives after struggling with longstanding mental distress, who could have easily sought the option of assisted suicide if it had been available to them! But however depressed and hopeless they felt, with a compassionate and hope filled approach from their care givers and the correct medical and psychological treatment, the vast majority recovered enough to be able to have a ‘life worth living’. In so many cases, these patients have thanked me later for not giving up on them! Not once have I heard anyone say ‘you should have let me die when I wanted to do it’.”

A meeting with a psychiatrist or other psychological specialist will protect people who may otherwise not have chosen assisted dying. I emphasise again that we already ensure that patients who will donate an organ have this assessment, so why not those seeking an assisted death? We must protect vulnerable terminally ill people from being coerced into assisted death, and psychiatrists and other specialists are best placed to spot that. That is why the assessment is included for living organ donation.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

There are a lot of other amendments grouped with amendment 56. Does anyone want to move amendment 56 or shall we move on?

[Sojan Joseph]

I beg to move amendment 56, in clause 8, page 4, line 34, at end insert—

“(ba) would not, in the opinion of the independent doctor, be liable for detention under the Mental Health Act 1983.”

This amendment would require the independent doctor to assess whether, in their opinion, a person would be liable for detention under the Mental Health Act 1983.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 57, in clause 8, page 5, line 1, leave out subsection (4) and insert—

“(4) The independent doctor must, where possible, undertake the second assessment jointly with the coordinating doctor.

(4A) If the independent doctor is unable to undertake the second assessment jointly with the coordinating doctor under subsection (4), the independent doctor must confer with the coordinating doctor before completing that assessment.”

This amendment would require the independent doctor to undertake the second assessment jointly with the coordinating doctor, or, if they are unable to, to confer with that doctor before completing the assessment.

Amendment 1, in clause 8, page 5, line 13, at beginning insert

“is a registered medical practitioner who is registered in the specialism of psychiatry in the Specialist Register kept by the General Medical Council and”.

This amendment would require that the independent doctor is a registered psychiatrist.

Amendment 197, in clause 8, page 5, line 13, leave out paragraph (a) and insert—

“(a) meets the requirements specified in regulations under subsection (6A),”.

This amendment and Amendment 198 impose a duty on the Secretary of State to make regulations about the training, qualifications and experience required in order to act as the independent doctor.

Amendment 58, in clause 8, page 5, line 14, at end insert—

“(aa) is a practitioner approved as having special experience in the diagnosis or treatment of mental disorder for the purposes of subsection (2) of Section 12 (General provisions as to medical recommendations) of the Mental Health Act 1983,”.

This amendment, which is linked to Amendment 56 would require the independent doctor to have special experience in the diagnosis of mental disorder.

Amendment 198, in clause 8, page 5, line 25, at end insert—

“(6A) The Secretary of State must by regulations make provision about the training, qualifications and experience that a registered medical practitioner must have in order to carry out the functions of the independent doctor.

(6B) The regulations must include training about—

(a) assessing capacity;

(b) assessing whether a person has been coerced or pressured by any other person.

(6C) Subject to that, the regulations may in particular provide that the required training, qualifications or experience is to be determined by a person specified in the regulations.”

See the statement for Amendment 197.

Amendment 428, in clause 8, page 5, line 25, at end insert—

“(6A) In Wales, all reasonable steps must be taken to ensure the practitioner under subsection (6) has fluent proficiency in the Welsh language if services or functions in the Act are to be provided to an individual in Welsh.”

Amendment 21, in clause 8, page 5, line 29, at end insert—

“(8A) Regulations under subsection (6)(a) must specify that training in respect of domestic abuse, including coercive control and financial abuse is mandatory.”

This amendment would require the registered medical practitioner acting as the independent doctor to have undertaken training on domestic abuse, including coercive control and financial abuse.

[Sojan Joseph]

I should like to speak to amendment 1 —I am pleased that I was able to table my amendment first. We have already discussed safeguarding many times and how capacity is central to these measures. As we know, clause 1 lists the qualifying criteria that a terminally ill person must meet, which includes having the capacity to make such a decision. Indeed, the qualifying criteria might not be written in any order of importance, but the fact that that appears first underlines its significance.

In many days of sittings the most spoken words have been mental health, capacity, coercion and suicidal thoughts, rather than pain, cancer and suffering. The importance of capacity as a safeguard is again demonstrated when we turn to clauses 7 and 8, which in turn set out what both the co-ordinating doctor and the independent doctor must assess in order for a terminally ill adult to be allowed to end their own life.

In clause 7, the first assessing doctor with responsibility is the co-ordinating doctor. In clause 8, the second doctor is the independent doctor. The doctors are expected to assess mostly the same things. For example, the first doctor will assess whether the person is terminally ill, has capacity to make the decision to end their own life, is aged 18 or over, is ordinarily resident in England, and is registered as a patient with a general medical practice in England. The second doctor does exactly the same and assesses whether the person is terminally ill, has capacity to make the decision to end their own life, is aged 18 years or over and so on.

Before coming to the first assessing doctor, the patient has already been treated by a consultant and been diagnosed as terminally ill, so the three doctors are basically doing the same job. That is important and relevant to my amendment 1, which asks that one of the two assessing doctors should be a qualified psychiatrist or a specialist in psychiatry. As I said earlier, the issues that have been most discussed by Committee members in the last few sittings were capacity, mental health and suicide. In my view, there is a gap that needs to be addressed.

We talked earlier about unconscious bias. There is already a provision in the Bill to refer a patient to a psychiatrist if one of the doctors thinks that there is an issue with their mental health or capacity. We discussed a similar concept when we debated the patient having access to a palliative care consultant. Some of the comments were that needing another person makes it complex, and it should be simplified. Do Members think that if any of the doctors thinks that there is an issue with the patient’s mental health or capacity assessment, making a referral creates that same kind of complexity? Getting access to a psychiatrist could be simplified by having that second doctor be a specialist in mental health. It is to be strongly welcomed that both co-ordinating doctors and independent doctors have to make an assessment that the person wanting to ending their life has the necessary capacity to make such an important decision.

The question came up during the debate about whether, if somebody has mild depression or another mental health disorder, but they still think that they have capacity, they should be allowed to choose this route. We have seen that, in some other countries where this route is already practised, mental health was originally excluded from the criteria but was later added. Are we saying that even if someone has mental ill health, mild depression or some sort of mental illness, if they have capacity, we can allow them to choose assisted dying? Who will make that decision?

In my experience of working in mental health for many years, I have seen many terminally ill people being admitted to mental health wards because of their increasing suicidal thoughts. Many people who have a mental illness for many years, especially chronically mentally ill people, lead a normal life with the support of medication, but when they are diagnosed with a terminal illness, such as cancer, and start chemotherapy or taking medication for that, it can interact with the medication that they were already taking. That can have an impact on their mental health or decision making, so it is important that those patients have access to a psychiatrist.

I am not asking to make the process more complex or for us to draw any more resources from the NHS by adding a psychiatrist into the assessment. All my amendment asks is for one of the two doctors to be a psychiatrist, which in fact makes the process safer and more secure—some of the concerns that we have talked about.

[Kim Leadbeater]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on tabling amendment 1 on the amendment paper—a lot has happened since he tabled that amendment, it is fair to say. I get the impression from the Committee that we will all be voting in favour of making it compulsory to refer to a psychiatrist when one of the doctors feels there is a need to. Is my hon. Friend somewhat reassured by that?

[Sojan Joseph]

I thank my hon. Friend for her timely intervention. I was going to say that having tabled amendment 1 asking for a psychiatrist to be involved, and having now been through many Committee sittings, I wonder whether I influenced an unconscious bias among Members to table more amendments relating to mental health, capacity and suicide. I say to my hon. Friend that although there can be a psychiatry referral, if we are talking about unconscious bias, as soon as the first and second doctor make the decision that the person has capacity, is terminally ill and is eligible for this process, the subsequent assessments can be influenced by the first assessment. That happens quite often in NHS healthcare, and especially mental health.

When the chief medical officer, Sir Chris Whitty, was before the Committee, I asked him about mental capacity assessments. He said:

“I would hope that most doctors are capable of identifying that someone has some degree…of mental health distress, or mental health illness”.

However, he went on to say:

“What not all doctors will feel comfortable doing is actually deciding whether that is sufficient to interfere with someone’s ability to make a decision with full capacity. That is where help from colleagues from psychiatry, and mental health more widely, is going to be useful.”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 28 January 2025; c. 38, Q17.]

We have spoken about this many times, but in written evidence the Royal College of Psychiatrists said:

“A person’s capacity can change, and it is decision specific. While we are of the view that a person’s capacity to decide treatment can be reliably assessed, an assessment of a person’s mental capacity to decide to end their own life is an entirely different and more complex determination requiring a higher level of understanding.”

In a previous sitting, we discussed having a panel that is able to do a psychosocial assessment. I know that the new clauses are yet to be discussed, but the relevant new clause does not specify who the members of the panel will be and whether it should include a psychiatrist or a social worker. That is yet to be made clear, so I am not convinced about that.

[Kim Leadbeater]

To clarify, I think it is clear that the panel would include a psychiatrist and a social worker. I hope that reassures my hon. Friend.

[Sojan Joseph]

I thank my hon. Friend for confirming that. That is reassuring but, as I said earlier, I would like to know when the patient will have access to the panel. It is important that they access it early in the process, rather than later, because that is where unconscious bias comes in.

The purpose of my amendment is to save resources, because I know about the pressure on the NHS. Rather than having an additional psychiatrist on top of the two or three doctors, my amendment would simplify the process and save resources.

Although I acknowledge that the evidence I cited referred to the application of the Mental Capacity Act 2005 to the Bill—an issue on which the Committee has already decided—I would argue that it can equally be taken into consideration in this context. After all, in its written evidence, the Royal College of Psychiatrists said:

“Mental disorders, such as depression, are more common in people nearing the end of their life. Delirium is more common… Hopelessness is a common symptom of depression”,

and people’s capacity and consent can be affected when they are going through that condition. I can categorically confirm that I have seen that in my own practice. A person could be absolutely normal, but when they are diagnosed with a terminal illness, that can have an impact on their mental health. We have heard about post-traumatic stress disorder and many other events that can have an impact on people’s mental health and, in turn, on their decision making and capacity.

If the Bill enters the statute book, we should ensure that at least one of the doctors assessing a terminally ill adult who wants to use the legal mechanism to end their life is properly qualified to carry out mental capacity assessments. I know from my own experience that psychiatrists deal with complex mental capacity assessments and other cases every day. For example, psychiatrists who work in accident and emergency departments regularly see people who are intent on ending their life—that is the bread and butter of their work.

--- Later in debate ---

[Naz Shah]

Oh, perfect. I am really pleased that my hon. Friend will accept both amendments 20 and 21, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft. Amendment 21 is about training. Although I welcome the amendments being accepted, my concern is that the amendment for training does not go far enough. We are talking about repeated coercion here, and my hon. Friend’s intention with the amendment was for people to be trained in picking up repeated coercive control. That is very different from domestic abuse, in terms of its manifestation and how it is picked up. From lots of evidence we have received, both written and oral, we know that coercive control is hard to detect. When it is repeated coercive control, it is even harder.

I want the Bill to be strengthened, especially when it comes to minoritised communities and older people. From a safeguarding perspective, the Bill’s impact is very gendered. It is International Women’s Day this week, and this is a very heightened issue. We celebrate women in this place because we do not have equality for women in our systems, across the globe and in this country. From the research and evidence we have had, we know that this Bill would impact more upon women, so it is important that we extend the training. As I suggested earlier, I would be happy to work with my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley to look at tabling another amendment and strengthening this safeguard, because I really want to get this one right.

Although I talked about this earlier, there are some statistics on suicide that I did not mention, which is why I want this training. Only this afternoon, I came across some research from the Kent and Medway NHS trust. In addition to research from last year, it has been found that women will kill themselves when they experience domestic abuse. For the first time, the number of women killing themselves as a result of domestic abuse has overtaken the number of women who are killed from domestic violence in intimate partner relationships. Bear with me—I will return to the research from the Kent and Medway trust in a moment, because I cannot seem to locate the statistics I wanted to point out. Either way, I want to support my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley to get this Bill right.

[Sojan Joseph]

We are talking about a very important issue in relation to training. Most training provided in the NHS, whether on the capacity assessment or domestic violence, is mandatory training that people are expected to retake yearly. Unfortunately, reports—especially the CQC reports—show that NHS trusts across the country are not fully compliant with this training, especially doctors, who are conducting this kind of training very poorly. Does my hon. Friend agree that just introducing training is not enough, and that we have to monitor compliance as well?

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Seventeenth sitting)

Sojan Joseph Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 4th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I rise to speak to amendment 413, which would require a medical practitioner in Wales who conducts a preliminary discussion under subsection (4) to discuss with the person their preferred language of Welsh or English. Amendments 414, 415, 416 and 417, tabled by the hon. Member for Ipswich, relate to adjustments for language and literacy barriers. I will speak to those amendments, but it is not my intention to divide the Committee on them. Although I am supportive of the drive behind the amendments from the hon. Member for Ipswich, they refer to a situation very different from that of Welsh and English, because the use of Welsh and English has particular statutory implications.

This is the first time I have risen to speak about how we need to tease out the Bill’s implications in the context of reserved and devolved powers, where justice and criminal law are reserved, while health and social care are devolved. Amendment 413 concerns the need, in my belief, to place in the Bill the requirement to determine whether a person wishes to use either Welsh or English in their initial discussions with registered medical practitioners. I firmly believe that this needs to be written into the legislation. Later amendments I have tabled to clauses 5 and 8, and new clause 18 and new schedule 2, also relate to the use of Welsh.

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

I fully support the amendments, but they say that the practitioner conducting the preliminary discussion should use an interpreter. Should the interpreter not also be available for all the interactions that follow on from the preliminary discussion?

--- Later in debate ---

[Sojan Joseph]

Does the hon. Member think that, if we bring in an agency from outside the NHS—from the private sector—this will become like a business?

[Danny Kruger]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The opportunity is there in the Bill for private businesses to be established to deliver assisted dying services. Indeed, it would be quite a lucrative money-making enterprise. Estimates have been given of between 5,000 and 17,000 assisted deaths per year, depending on how they are arrived at. If the charges employed by Dignitas—which is in a sense the model being proposed here—are anything to go by, it could be in the region of £5,000 to £10,000 per patient. Even a small proportion of that would be significant—a multimillion-pound business would be possible under the Bill. Advertising would also probably be possible; we saw TfL suggest that the Dignity in Dying adverts in the tube before Second Reading were compliant. There is no prohibition in the Bill on advertising or on people making money from it.

However, the Bill also specifies that this would be a state-protected service, so if it were to be a private enterprise, it would have all sorts of state protections that would not normally apply to private providers of anything. Under clause 25, the providers would be exempt from any civil liability for providing assistance under the Bill. Under clause 29, a death would be exempt from investigation under the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. Clause 30 says that a failure to comply with any code of practice

“does not of itself render a person liable to…criminal or civil proceedings”.

The only monitoring that would be done would be undertaken by the voluntary assisted dying commissioner, who is not an independent figure, but the person responsible for setting up the panels that approve the deaths.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sojan Joseph]

I rise to speak in support of the amendment. The documentation in our healthcare system is a very important matter. It helps us to share good practice and to learn from mistakes. Whether in secondary care, primary care or nursing homes, the quality and the safety of our patient care is monitored by the Care Quality Commission, which uses clinical documentation to carry out its process of monitoring that quality and safety. It is important that any conversation had with patients by the doctor, or by any medical professional or multidisciplinary team, is documented clearly. That will help to safeguard our patients.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sarah Olney]

I will not take up a huge amount of time, because a lot of what I wanted to say has been said in previous sittings, but I return to the issue of people who may request an assisted death who may also be suffering from a mental health condition. Amendment 271 was tabled by the right hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), and specifically concerns people who have received their terminal illness diagnosis less than six months ago and whose prognosis is less than 6 months in the future. The amendment specifically addresses the fact that the risk of suicide for people who are suffering from a terminal illness increases when the diagnosis has been made less than six months before.

Professor Louis Appleby is a key academic in the area of suicide prevention and advises the Government on it. Research by him and Professor Sleeman found:

“Diagnosis of severe conditions was associated with an increased risk of dying by suicide”.

In particular, they found:

“The increase in risk was more pronounced in the first six months after diagnosis or first treatment.”

They concluded that:

“A diagnosis of severe physical illness is associated with higher suicide risk. The interaction of physical and mental illness emphasises the importance of collaborative physical and mental health care in these patients.”

We talked at length in an earlier sitting about the risk that bringing in an assisted dying law would undermine suicide prevention strategies and efforts to address the issue of suicide. It is important that we return to this issue, and that we look seriously at the amendment in the name of the right hon. Member for South West Wiltshire, because it addresses the specific concern around those people who have had their diagnosis of terminal illness for less than six months and are therefore at a heightened risk of suicide.

NICE guidelines say that if someone is at risk of self-harm or suicide, a clinician must ensure that a psychosocial assessment has been carried out either by a mental health specialist or by a trained person in primary care. That should cover the person’s living arrangements, relationships, social support network, mental health disorders, risk factors, safeguarding concerns and so on. Professor Allan House told the Committee in oral evidence that this should be part of the assessment for assisted dying. He said the current assessment only answers the question:

“‘Is this person able to make decisions?’…it does not cover the psychological and social assessment.”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 29 January 2025; c. 165, Q210.]

We have discussed at length the lack of the psychosocial assessment in relation to everybody who makes a request for an assisted death, but the amendment seeks to identify those who are at heightened risk of suicide—those who have received their diagnosis of terminal illness within the last six months—and specifically requires psychosocial assessments for those people.

Depression is common among those with terminal illness. Dr Price from the Royal College of Psychiatrists told the Committee that among

“people nearing the end of life…depression is…at around 20%—much more common than in the general population. We know that depression is strongly associated with a wish to hasten death”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 30 January 2025; c. 275, Q359.]

and that that wish is significantly alleviated if depression is treated, which is an extremely important point for the Committee to consider.

The Pathfinders Neuromuscular Alliance, which is a user-led charity for those with muscle-weakening conditions such as muscular dystrophy, have stated in written evidence:

“Pathfinders members have outlined how important it is to ensure psychological assessments are part of the process in order to ensure that the individual is in a position to make an informed decision. One member outlined:

‘I’ve been there, I’ve wanted to die, and I’ve been in the position where I would take that option if it was given to me, but looking back I can see I was depressed and now I’m so glad that I didn’t take that option.’”

Currently, the Bill does not require anyone to explore any psychosocial factors in respect of someone’s situation. Although the person can be referred to a psychiatrist under clause 9(3), that only covers a capacity assessment. Again, it only answers the question of whether the person is able to make decisions, and addresses none of the other relevant factors. In Oregon, there is more room to explore those factors—the doctor may refer a patient for counselling if the patient may be suffering from a psychiatric or psychological disorder or depression, causing impaired judgment.

On addressing the risk of social pressure and internalised feelings of burden, the British Geriatrics Society warned in its written evidence:

“There is an established link between frailty and feeling a burden to others, meaning many older people with treatable clinical frailty may choose an assisted death to avoid burdening their family, which we view as unacceptable.”

The Committee has already discussed at length the issue of older people or people with a terminal illness wishing to choose an assisted death motivated by the wish to save their family money. Dr Jerram, Dr Wagland and Dr Davis found that attitudes towards assisted dying changed over time. Patients closest to death were least likely to want assisted dying, suggesting that fear of suffering was the driving cause and that it may lessen as end of life care improves.

Psychosocial care is fundamental to good end-of-life care. Committee members and witnesses from other jurisdictions have said that palliative care and assisted dying can complement each other, and that assessment should be part of the picture. Glyn Berry told the Committee about the importance of

“the psychosocial aspect of palliative and end-of-life care”.––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 28 January 2025; c. 53, Q58.]

In its written evidence, the British Association of Social Workers said that

“good health care is not just about clinical interventions”,

but also about

“the wider social context in which a person lives their life…This is particularly pertinent with assisted dying.”

That needs to come before the first declaration, because once somebody has signed that declaration, they are already on a pathway. The amendment would provide an opportunity for people’s needs to be met at the first opportunity.

In conclusion, I emphasise the importance of a psychosocial intervention, which was stressed by a number of witnesses giving oral evidence to the Committee. We have discussed this issue at length. Earlier amendments have been voted down, but I stress the particular importance of the amendment 271 for that group of people who are in the first months of their diagnosis of a terminal illness and the raised level of risk of suicide that they present.

[Sojan Joseph]

As the hon. Member for Richmond Park says, we have repeatedly debated people’s mental health and how, once somebody has had a diagnosis of a terminal illness, it can have an impact on their decision making. Amendment 425, which we discussed earlier, is about having access to a multidisciplinary team. That team could have on it a social worker or a psychiatrist who would make a comprehensive assessment, which would cover amendment 271.

The amendment is an opportunity for the Committee to look into this issue, to make the Bill stronger, and to bring in safeguards for vulnerable people who may feel suicidal, and may feel a burden to society or to the healthcare system, and may choose this way. Those people who are vulnerable would have a psychosocial and mental health assessment, which would make the Bill stronger and safer.

[Lewis Atkinson]

I rise to speak against the amendment; there are significant issues with it both in practice and in principle. In terms of practice, I draw Members’ attention to the fact that the amendment does not mention a psychosocial assessment; it mentions mandating “a psychosocial intervention”. As defined by the World Health Organisation, a psychosocial intervention can be as brief as five minutes. I know that it is a brief intervention: I used to manage services delivering psychosocial interventions. Nowhere in the amendment is the type of psychosocial intervention or its purpose specified. If Members hope that the amendment will lead to a psychosocial assessment—

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Sixteenth sitting)

Sojan Joseph Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 4th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Lewis Atkinson]

No, I am going to make some progress because I am conscious of the time, and we want to get through these provisions.

I want to speak in favour of amendments 108 and 183. Those two amendments, taken together with amendment 275, create additional safeguards and assurances on the points made by colleagues on Second Reading that this is not cannot be raised in isolation—as my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley has made clear should not be the case—and that referral should always be offered to specialists in palliative and wider care.

As others have said, those patients will almost undoubtedly be in touch with a variety of different multidisciplinary healthcare teams. The suggestion that there must be a further referral to another multidisciplinary team under the Bill, regardless of which teams an individual is seeing, is therefore not appropriate. I also refer Members to amendment 6 to clause 9, which states that a referral to a psychiatrist “must” be made. My hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley has indicated that she is in favour of that amendment. That reinforces the fact that there will be a multidisciplinary approach, including psychiatric input, where there is any doubt before the third-tier stage of the panel.

For those reasons, I do not feel the other amendments—285, 343 and so on—are necessary. By accepting amendments 275, 108 and 183, we will be able to strengthen the Bill in the way that was set out to the House, and as we heard in oral and written evidence.

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

I rise in support of the amendments, especially amendments 342 and 425. We have discussed various aspects of the Bill, especially capacity, coercion and medical practices, under many previous amendments. As somebody who worked as a mental health nurse for many years, and who worked as part of a multidisciplinary team, I think that amendments 342 and 425 are some of the most important.

Amendment 342 talks about the preliminary conversation with the medical practitioner with whom the patient makes contact. Do we not think that the doctor who knows most about that patient is the best person to have that preliminary discussion? They will have the most information about them. When the patient, who has gone through so much difficulty, goes to their doctor or to a GP who knows them well and says, “I would like to choose the assisted dying pathway,” would that doctor then say, “I do not want to discuss this. Somebody else will.”?

[Kim Leadbeater]

Is my hon. Friend not concerned about the concept of conscientious objection? The BMA strongly opposes amendment 342, because it does not think doctors should be obligated to have that initial conversation if they do not want to.

[Sojan Joseph]

There are other people who support this concept, and they are the people who will be having the conversation—we have both sides of the argument. I believe that the best person to have that preliminary discussion would be the doctor who knows about that patient the most—about their circumstances, prognosis, family situation and pain. We talk about compassionate care, but where is the compassion in here? I am not saying that another doctor would deny that—but I am talking about compassion. Someone going through the most difficult time in their life would have the confidence to talk to the person who knows the most about them, which is why I fully support that the initial discussion should happen with them. I am not saying that they should say yes or no, but they should be talking about the care provisions and options available to the patient. Amendment 342 is one of the most important amendments we will debate.

I will move on to amendment 425. When I tabled amendment 1, my thinking was that a psychiatrist should be involved in these discussions, but I think amendment 425 will safeguard most of the concerns we have discussed in previous sittings. Amendment 425 talks about a “multidisciplinary team” and having a psychiatrist involved as well. Written evidence was sent to us on 29 January by the Royal College of General Practitioners, which recommended that a separate pathway that

“covered every stage of the process would ensure healthcare professionals of multiple disciplines…who wanted to do so could still opt in to provide assisted dying, but this would be arranged through a different pathway.”

The hon. Member for Sunderland Central spoke earlier about how patients may be going through many multidisciplinary teams already, but it could be that none of those multidisciplinary teams have talked with them about assisted dying. They could have been pharmacists or nurses talking about the patient’s care—not assisted dying. We are talking about setting up a multidisciplinary team with a mental health nurse, doctor and social worker who can look in detail at evidence of the patient’s capacity, whether they are choosing it because they feel they are a burden, and whether there is any coercion. I think that is a safeguard for most of the concerns we have discussed in previous sessions. I would love to see a psychiatrist involved, because psychiatrists deal with some of the most challenging patients, including those with suicidal thoughts, on a day-to-day basis. They are the most experienced people to carry out a capacity assessment and, if they are a part of the multidisciplinary team, it will safeguard the Bill.

I strongly support amendment 425 and I urge Members to consider it. It will reassure many people who are concerned about some of the discussions. I know it also talks about giving power to the Secretary of State to formalise who should be part of the multidisciplinary team, which would be a discussion for later. I thank the Committee for giving me the opportunity to speak in support of the amendment.

[Naz Shah]

I rise to speak to amendments 285 and 286, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for York Central. On amendment 285, we have to understand that, in medicine, clinicians only retain the areas of expertise in which they have clear confidence. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud, who made very powerful points that, if anything, actually support this amendment. This is why we have developed a health system with so many specialities. Although generalists have incredible knowledge, they cannot confess to the depth of understanding that someone who dedicates their career to a speciality has. Therefore, the amendment seeks to draw on such knowledge rather than assume that a GP, for example, specialises in all fields of medicine.

Clause 4(4) would require a generalist to work alongside a specialist to secure the understanding of a patient’s diagnosis and prognosis. Once again, I recognise that my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud suggested that that already happens and does not need to be tied up in law. However, I feel the amendment gives us more protections if we are to make the Bill safe. It would then enable specialist clinical advice to be provided in the conversation about treatment options.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fifteenth sitting)

Sojan Joseph Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 26th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

I remind the Committee that with this we are discussing the following:

Amendment 49, in clause 3, page 2, line 13, at end insert—

“(2) The burden of proof for an assessment of a person’s capacity is the balance of probabilities as required under section 2(4) of that Act.

(3) For the purposes of any such assessment, the principles set out in subsections (2) to (4) of section 1 (The principles) of that Act apply.”.

This amendment would set out the burden of proof for capacity assessments as being the same as the Mental Capacity Act 2005 and apply the principles from subsections (2) to (4) of section 1 of the Mental Capacity Act 2005.

Amendment 50, in clause 3, page 2, line 13, at end insert—

“(2) An assessment of a person’s capacity under this Act must include, but is not limited to, an assessment that the person understands—

(a) the options for care and treatment of the terminal illness, including—

(i) the extent of prognostic certainty of their illness or condition, and

(ii) the likely effects on day-to-day functioning, symptom management, and pathway to and experience of death of—

(A) relevant and available care and treatment including palliative care, hospice or other care,

(B) withdrawal or absence of care and treatment, and

(C) requesting assistance in ending their own life under the terms of this Act.

(b) a decision to proceed under this Act does not prevent or make unavailable any care and treatment provision that would normally be provided.

(c) the person’s decision to proceed under this Act must be theirs alone and not bound or directed by the views or decisions of others.

(d) the person is able to change their mind at any stage of the process for requesting assistance to end their own life under the provisions of this Act, regardless of previous decisions.

(e) a decision to proceed under this Act will lead to the provision of a substance that is reasonably expected to end someone’s life following administration and is reasonably expected to be irreversible.

(f) relevant legal consequences from proceeding with a request for assistance to end their own life, including life insurance and categorisation of death certification.”

This amendment would set out certain non-exhaustive requirements for a finding that a person has capacity.

Amendment 398, in clause 3, page 2, line 13, at end insert—

“(2) The following provisions of the Mental Capacity Act 2005 shall not apply to this Act—

(a) sections 1(2) to (4)

(b) sections 2(2) and (4).

(3) Section 2(1) of the Mental Capacity Act 2005 shall apply to this Act as if it read as follows—

‘For the purposes of this Act, a person lacks capacity in relation to a matter if at the material time he is unable to make a decision for himself in relation to the matter.’

(4) A person shall be considered not to have the capacity to make a decision to end their own life unless it is proven beyond reasonable doubt that they do have that capacity.”

This amendment disapplies several principles of the Mental Capacity Act: the presumption of capacity, the duty to help someone reach capacity, the irrelevance of an unwise decision, the application of the balance of probabilities, and the diagnostic test. It retains the functional test of capacity and requires that capacity be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Clause stand part.

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

I was talking about the training, which we have talked about many times in this Committee, for the people who may carry out capacity assessments, and about my experience of completing those trainings as part of my profession and carrying out capacity assessments for the past 22 years. We heard oral evidence from Dr Rachel Clarke, who has extensive experience in training doctors and nurses in capacity assessments. She said:

“I would suggest that anybody who pretends that those assessments are easy and routinely done well in the NHS has not got enough experience of observing that happening. I teach capacity assessments to doctors and medical students, and it is often the case that they are very poorly conducted.”—[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 28 January 2025; c. 71, Q85.]

That is my experience as well.

We also talked about the second doctors. In the NHS, especially in the mental health sector, my experience is that many of the doctors are not in substantive roles—many locum doctors work in many areas. With my experience, I am not confident that trainings are being taken up by many of the people working in the NHS. I do not think that any of the trusts would be able to evidence that they have an 100% completion rate for their mandatory training. Especially for locum doctors, there is no monitoring system by the trusts. I am therefore not confident that this training would be robust enough to support some of the claims.

[Danny Kruger (East Wiltshire) (Con)]

I completely agree with what the hon. Gentleman is saying about the importance of getting the training right, but even if the training were right it might not be robust enough. The point was made earlier in the debate that there is a clause towards the end of the Bill about codes of practice that specifies that medical professionals must have regard for a code of practice that “may” be set out by the Secretary of State. Does he agree that that is a very thin defence to rely on? We are not talking about anything in primary or secondary legislation; it will be in a code of practice that may be laid down by the Secretary of State with no obligation or legal liability for a doctor to follow it. We are talking about some layers down from what needs to be in the Bill in terms of the assessments that should be conducted.

[Sojan Joseph]

I agree. As part of the code of practice, professionals are expected to complete the training that has been outlined already, but I am not confident that that is actually happening. Saying that there will be training does not reassure me that it will be robust enough.

[Kim Leadbeater (Spen Valley) (Lab)]

The hon. Member for East Wiltshire seemed reassured by the fact that there will be training in the Bill—it is on the face of the Bill and will therefore definitely take place—

[Kim Leadbeater]

I am pretty confident that an amendment is going to be tabled, if it has not been already, that would change that “may” to “must” in the clause on codes of practice.

[Sojan Joseph]

I would be happy to see the Bill make a strong case that the people who will take part in this process have training before they do so.

My larger issue is around the independent doctors. Again, I will use some examples of how the Mental Health Act 1983 has been carried out in its current format. Those cases always use a section 12-approved doctor, who is a second doctor and they may not have had any kind of contact with the patients. We may or may not end up in that sort of similar situation. That is the point I was making earlier.

As the Royal College of Psychiatrists mentioned, capacity can change and decisions are opinions with margins of error. I mentioned my experience working in mental health wards earlier, and the hon. Member for East Wiltshire talked about the capacity assessments carried out when patients are standing by or threatening to jump off a bridge. I am not comparing these situations or saying that they are similar, but we have to make decisions based on capacity. In my experience of discharging people from hospital in a mental health unit, when somebody is threatening, “I’m going to kill myself if you discharge me”, the multi-disciplinary team—the doctors and the nurses—have to make a decision on whether to discharge the patient based on their capacity at that time.

Capacity is assessed based on whether someone is able to understand information—can they retain, use and weigh information, and can they communicate their decision? We cannot compare that with the situation of somebody asking for assisted dying. I want to make it clear that the capacity assessment is the key. I would love to support this amendment. As I said earlier, this issue was one reason I voted against the Bill on Second Reading, but passing this amendment might change my position and I would love to support it.

[Jack Abbott (Ipswich) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mrs Harris. I will speak specifically to amendment 50. I fully appreciate and accept the points made on a number of occasions during this debate by my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud—that many proposed changes either already feature in the Bill or are the current course of practice for doctors and other medical professionals. As I have said previously, I am not generally in the business of supporting amendments that, in my view, overcomplicate issues, are ambiguous and could lead to other consequences or are simply repetitious, but I do not think that amendment 50 would do those things.

Some proposed amendments are featured in the Bill, either directly or implicitly, but I do not see how amendment 50 would overcomplicate or lead to ambiguity. It is a quite direct and, dare I say, common-sense ask that we should all support. I take the point made by the right hon. Member for North West Hampshire on proposed new subsection (2)(f) of clause 3, as inserted by amendment 50, though I confess I did not read it in the same way that he did. I read it as saying that anyone looking to go down this route should be made aware of the legal consequences. That is a sensible suggestion.

I do not expect a doctor would be going into people’s bank accounts or deeply understanding their legal affairs, but due consideration, advice and information should be imparted to the person who is applying. That is how I read it; I did not think it would be a hugely intrusive, in-depth study into a person’s personal finances.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sojan Joseph]

Does the Minister agree that when it comes to withdrawing treatment, especially switching off a ventilator, the decision is often made between the medical professionals and the families, and most of the time the patient has no say in it?

[Stephen Kinnock]

What we are talking about today with this Bill—and the job of this Bill Committee is to improve the Bill—is a number of safeguards that ensure that the patient is absolutely consulted and positively and constructively engaged every step of the way. In that sense this is different from the situation my hon. Friend describes. I bow to his expertise as a medical practitioner in this field, and it sounds as though what he has described is not an ideal situation, but certainly this Bill, it would appear, has safeguards that ensure that the situation he describes should never arise.

--- Later in debate ---

[Naz Shah]

I have just finished that example, Mrs Harris.

Several highly experienced palliative medicine doctors have warned us that doctors raising assisted dying with patients would have two very harmful effects. The doctors said that it would scare patients away from palliative care, especially those from minority communities or disadvantaged backgrounds. They also warned that in some cases, if a doctor raised the subject of assisted dying with a vulnerable patient, that person would not hear it as a possibility being discussed; instead, they would hear it as a suggestion from a powerful person who, in some instances, they might be scared to challenge.

The question we have to ask ourselves is: are we going to be that Committee that ignored the evidence of the experts who deal with this issue on a daily basis on the frontline with those very people at the end of life who the Bill is actually aimed at? Or are we going to risk being part of a future assisted dying Bill scandal because we placed ourselves above those experts by supporting a view of a wider body? That body has very valid reasons—no doubt—from its own position but is not, in its entirety, a frontline delivery expert, as palliative care doctors are.

Those warnings are too stark for me—for any of us, I submit—to ignore. We cannot ignore the concerns that those doctors have raised. If any Committee member accepts the concerns of the experts, that a vulnerable person would not hear assisted dying as a possibility being discussed but instead as a suggestion from a powerful person, I sincerely hope that they will vote in favour of this amendment.

I turn to amendment 276, which I tabled. It would add a subsection to clause 4, which concerns the initial discussion between a person with a severe illness and a medical practitioner. This new subsection would impose a pause or an interval of 28 days between a person receiving a diagnosis and prognosis of the illness that might end their life within six months, and when they could speak to a doctor about assisted death. Currently, there is no such interval. I tabled this amendment in response to the concerns raised by several senior and experienced doctors in evidence to this Committee.

Several doctors who gave evidence—especially the psychiatrists—noted that a diagnosis of serious illness often leads to a major increase in depression and a desire to hasten death. However, on depression and the desire for death, the psychiatrists also said that when a patient gets treatment for their physical symptoms alongside social care and sometimes psychological treatment, that person may well change their mind. This amendment aims to prevent people from opting for assisted dying while they are suffering from the initial shock of having a serious illness diagnosed.

Let me talk in more detail about some of that evidence. In particular, I will bring the Committee’s attention back to Dr Annabel Price, vice chair of the liaison faculty at the Royal College of Psychiatrists, who has great expertise in this field. I will quote from her evidence at some length, because she talks very clearly about the evidence that we have about the effect of a diagnosis of serious illness on somebody’s mental health. Her evidence raises very important concerns about how the Bill, as it is written, would affect patients who have just received a diagnosis of serious illness. She said that

“if we think about people with palliative care needs towards the end of life—so the people who would qualify under this Bill—around 20% will have diagnosable depression, around 10% will have a wish to hasten death, and around 4% will have a more persistent wish to hasten death. Those wishes may not be expressed unless they are assessed for. One of the things that I would do in my clinical practice would be to look for treatable mental disorder in people who express a wish to hasten death.”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 30 January 2025; c. 270, Q351.]

Dr Price went on to say:

“There is a lot of research evidence around depression in people with palliative care needs and people nearing the end of life. We know that depression is common, and across a number of studies it is at around 20%—much more common than in the general population. We know that depression is strongly associated with a wish to hasten death, and that if depression is found and treated in that group of patients, there will be significant change in the wish to hasten death.”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 30 January 2025; c. 275, Q359.]

Dr Price also went further and said:

“There are a number of associations other than depression with a wish to hasten death, and they include difficult symptom experience, poor functional status—needing a lot of help with things—and being socially isolated. Those are really key ones. They also include a sense of loss of dignity and feeling like a burden on others. These things can all come together to make life feel very unbearable. We know that there is also an overlap between a wish to hasten death, which is a response to suffering, and feeling that one is better off dead, ending one’s own life or harming oneself. I was involved in a study where we asked people both the wording of “a wish to hasten death” and the suicide question from the PHQ9, which is a depression screening tool. Those who had a wish to hasten death were 18 times more likely to also feel suicidal, according to the psychiatric definition, than people who did not have a wish to hasten death. There is a strong association.”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 30 January 2025; c. 275-276, Q359.]

I have quoted Dr Price at length because she sets out clearly some of the problems we need to address before the Bill will be fit for purpose. From her evidence, we know that when people receive a diagnosis of a serious illness with a prognosis that they may have around six months to live, that has serious psychological effects. We also know from her evidence that one of those psychological effects is what she called an increased desire to “hasten death”. She said that, in some cases, this means that the patient becomes “suicidal”, while in others it may not mean that the patient is suicidal, because they do not want to positively do something such as killing themselves, but they do wish that death would come to them sooner. It should be clear to us that a desire to hasten death will certainly be relevant to the decisions of any patient who wants a discussion on assisted dying.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, Dr Price provided evidence that if a patient’s desire to hasten death increases immediately after the diagnosis of a serious illness, it is likely to decrease once several things have happened. In a psychiatrists’ survey of patients, they found that the desire to hasten death often decreased once the patient had time to reflect on their diagnosis and prognosis; once they had received adequate medical care; once they had social care to allow them to live their day-to-day lives and, in some cases, to relieve their isolation; or in some cases, once they had psychiatric support and adequate pain relief or intervention to relieve them of their pain. In practical terms, we have evidence that a patient who has just had a diagnosis of serious illness with a prognosis of possible or likely death within six months would be more likely to want to die.

[Sojan Joseph]

The amendment would add a 28-day period between the diagnosis and the start of the conversation about assisted dying. Having listened to hon. Members speak and given the evidence that we have heard, does my hon. Friend think that patients should have not only a 28-day gap, but access to a psychiatrist before the discussion of assisted suicide should start?

Oral Answers to Questions

Sojan Joseph Excerpts

Tuesday 11th February 2025 Commons Chamber

[Wes Streeting]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question—I know how personal this issue is for him. I was delighted to meet his father on my visit to Hartlepool, and wish him very well. I take very seriously what my hon. Friend has said about the importance of workforce training. He mentioned training for health and social care staff, which is important, but I would argue that the point applies more broadly across our society. On 6 September, the Department launched the adult social care learning and development support scheme, which allows eligible employers to claim for funding for certain training courses and qualifications, including relevant dementia training, for eligible care staff. We will continue to keep this under observation and review.

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

13. What steps he is taking to help tackle career progression inequalities in nursing.

[The Minister for Secondary Care (Karin Smyth)]

I know that this issue is close to my hon. Friend’s heart, after his years of service as a nurse in the health service. We have to ensure that the NHS is an attractive place for nurses to work, and that they can progress. We hear directly from staff through our 10-year plan, and work closely with the Royal College of Nursing, Unison and other trade unions through our social partnership forum.

[Sojan Joseph]

I must disclose that I worked as a mental health nurse in the NHS for the past 22 years, and that in my career, I progressed from nurse to head of nursing.

Recruitment and retention of nursing staff across the health and social care sector is key to delivering an NHS that is fit for the future, but the most recent NHS staff workforce survey showed that just 56% of staff felt that the health service acted fairly when it came to career progression. What steps will this Government take to address this issue, and to ensure that our nursing workforce feel valued and feel a sense of purpose in their wider work?

[Karin Smyth]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that the issue is key, and that the results are worrying. I know how proud my friends and family members were to become nurses, and what a great career nursing offered them. We have to deliver on the promise of a good career, and build on that pride in being a nurse. We absolutely recognise that we cannot rebuild the NHS without their skills and their high-quality critical and compassionate care.

National Cancer Plan

Sojan Joseph Excerpts

Tuesday 4th February 2025 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Gwynne]

I am more than happy to meet the hon. Member and the team to look at precisely those points and I wish them all the very best in their fundraising efforts, but look, as a country we are better than this. I want to see the national cancer plan really start to address how we can get that research, that treatment, those diagnoses and those better outcomes for people with the NHS at the heart of it, doing what the NHS does best and ensuring that we get those outcomes from publicly funded improvements.

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

I welcome all the efforts this Government are making to improve cancer services. Early diagnosis is just as important as prevention, but we all know that patients are currently waiting several months for scan procedures. A recent visit to the GP surgeries in my constituency showed that they have spare capacity for scanning, but it is not actively offered to patients at the moment. This is due to a lack of collaborative working and communication in the health system, so will the Minister tell the House how we can improve the existing systems so that they work effectively and people can get timely procedures?

[Andrew Gwynne]

Part of our recovery plan is to ensure that we return the national health service to constitutional standards, not just in respect of cancer but across the board. We inherited a broken national health service and it is incumbent on this Government to fix it and make it fit for the future. Clearly, in areas such as my hon. Friend’s, the NHS needs to be doing much better when it comes to cancer outcomes and cancer treatments, and this plan and this Government will ensure that his local system gets all the support it needs.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourth sitting)

Sojan Joseph Excerpts

Wednesday 29th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Lewis Atkinson (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

Q Can I be explicit on the palliative care point? We have heard concerns from some in palliative care provision that there is anxiety that if we introduce this in the UK, there is a risk of deterioration in or failure to improve palliative care. Can you address that directly in the light of your experience?

Dr Mewett: I will say one thing briefly. Palliative Care Australia, which is our peak body, commissioned a report a few years back that studied the introduction of voluntary assisted dying legislation throughout the jurisdictions of the world. It concluded—this is a body that was not pro-VAD—that there was no adverse impact on palliative care services; indeed, it was often the contrary. Palliative care services were actually strengthened and enhanced because of the emphasis now being placed on more choices at the end of life. So I think that is an absolute furphy, as we say in Australia—you might say a red herring.

Palliative care services are not in any detriment. In fact, I would go on to say that this idea that palliative care doctors will leave in their droves if such legislation is introduced is just false. We respect conscientious objection in this space, and we have learned to live with each other and respect that people are entitled to set their own ethical limits.

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

Q Are you aware of any reported incidents of the misuse of medication that has been administered? As you explained earlier, patients can take the medication to their home.

Dr McLaren: We were made aware of one situation in Queensland last year. The eligible patient was given the medication, but they ended up in hospital and died from their disease. Their husband then went home, took the voluntary assisted dying medication and died. That was obviously a tragedy and no one wants that to occur, so I do not want to be flippant in talking about it, and I hope my comments are taken in the way they are intended.

We know that spousal suicides occur when people die, and we have had one case across Australia compared with thousands of successful cases of voluntary assisted dying conduct. No other cases have been evidenced, so the rate of that is incredibly low. The voluntary assisted dying team in Queensland, on the same day that they became aware of that case, put in steps to ensure that it would not happen again, which I believe included the required return of the medication.

We also have to balance the autonomy of having the medication available to patients at 2 in the morning, when they have an exacerbation of their pain and say that enough is enough, instead of waiting for business hours when the doctors are available to come and sit with them. It is a very delicate balance and there will always be that risk. I think the balance is struck well and the safety can be upheld by still providing the patients access to their own medication.

[The Chair]

I am going to take one final comment from Dr Mewett, as we are practically out of time. I am sorry that there is one Member who has not been called.

Dr Mewett: To be absolutely clear, spousal suicide occurs with leftover palliative care drugs, and we had two cases of that in Victoria prior to voluntary assisted dying. It is hardly surprising that that may occur in a very rare number of cases.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourth sitting)

Sojan Joseph Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 29th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Lewis Atkinson (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

Q Can I be explicit on the palliative care point? We have heard concerns from some in palliative care provision that there is anxiety that if we introduce this in the UK, there is a risk of deterioration in or failure to improve palliative care. Can you address that directly in the light of your experience?

Dr Mewett: I will say one thing briefly. Palliative Care Australia, which is our peak body, commissioned a report a few years back that studied the introduction of voluntary assisted dying legislation throughout the jurisdictions of the world. It concluded—this is a body that was not pro-VAD—that there was no adverse impact on palliative care services; indeed, it was often the contrary. Palliative care services were actually strengthened and enhanced because of the emphasis now being placed on more choices at the end of life. So I think that is an absolute furphy, as we say in Australia—you might say a red herring.

Palliative care services are not in any detriment. In fact, I would go on to say that this idea that palliative care doctors will leave in their droves if such legislation is introduced is just false. We respect conscientious objection in this space, and we have learned to live with each other and respect that people are entitled to set their own ethical limits.

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

Q Are you aware of any reported incidents of the misuse of medication that has been administered? As you explained earlier, patients can take the medication to their home.

Dr McLaren: We were made aware of one situation in Queensland last year. The eligible patient was given the medication, but they ended up in hospital and died from their disease. Their husband then went home, took the voluntary assisted dying medication and died. That was obviously a tragedy and no one wants that to occur, so I do not want to be flippant in talking about it, and I hope my comments are taken in the way they are intended.

We know that spousal suicides occur when people die, and we have had one case across Australia compared with thousands of successful cases of voluntary assisted dying conduct. No other cases have been evidenced, so the rate of that is incredibly low. The voluntary assisted dying team in Queensland, on the same day that they became aware of that case, put in steps to ensure that it would not happen again, which I believe included the required return of the medication.

We also have to balance the autonomy of having the medication available to patients at 2 in the morning, when they have an exacerbation of their pain and say that enough is enough, instead of waiting for business hours when the doctors are available to come and sit with them. It is a very delicate balance and there will always be that risk. I think the balance is struck well and the safety can be upheld by still providing the patients access to their own medication.

[The Chair]

I am going to take one final comment from Dr Mewett, as we are practically out of time. I am sorry that there is one Member who has not been called.

Dr Mewett: To be absolutely clear, spousal suicide occurs with leftover palliative care drugs, and we had two cases of that in Victoria prior to voluntary assisted dying. It is hardly surprising that that may occur in a very rare number of cases.

New Hospital Programme Review

Sojan Joseph Excerpts

Monday 20th January 2025 Commons Chamber

[Wes Streeting]

I thank the hon. Gentleman very much for that question. I think he is going to go far in this place, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I would be delighted to look favourably on his representations about his local facilities.

[Sojan Joseph (Ashford) (Lab)]

My local hospital was not selected for the new hospital programme. While I am happy for colleagues who have received some certainty today on when work on their local hospital will start, does the Secretary of State recognise that there are hospitals the length and breadth of this country that are falling apart, and that staff and patients deserve better? Will he commit to considering a wider estate plan for the rest of the NHS estate, especially in east Kent?

[Wes Streeting]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question, and for the outstanding work he has done representing his constituents since his election. He makes the really important point that, of the record investment that the Chancellor and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury have given to my Department for capital investment—the biggest allocation since Labour was last in government—£3 billion a year is allocated for the new hospitals programme. Eagle-eyed people have noticed that a sum much larger than £3 billion a year is available for capital investment, precisely because there is a need for improvement and modernisation of the existing estate right across the health and social care estate, as I know from the representations that are piling into my inbox from my constituents who use Queen’s hospital in Romford. I can assure my hon. Friend that we are looking across the board at the capital need in the NHS and social care and prioritising accordingly, and I would be delighted to receive his representations.