Work Programme

Debate between Stephen Timms and Guto Bebb

Thursday 10th October 2013 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb]

That is a fair point. When people try to score political points on this issue, it is worth bearing in mind that the performance of the previous programmes was not as good as what we are seeing under the Work programme.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

I will have something to say about the performance of previous programmes if I catch you eye later, Mr Walker. However, I want to pick the hon. Gentleman up on his point, which I agree with, about the programme’s performance at the beginning being particularly disappointing. With the benefit of hindsight, would he agree that the cliff-edge approach of shutting down the previous programme and immediately trying to set up the Work programme—inevitably, it took many providers quite a long time to get going—was not a good way to go about things?

[Guto Bebb]

In view of the fact that we were looking to shake up the way we were supporting people into work, I am not sure there was any other way around that. The summary to the Select Committee report highlights the fact that it was an achievement on the part of the Department to deliver the Work programme so soon after the announcement in Parliament and after the legislation was passed. Despite the circumstances, the programme was delivered.

The key problem with the statistics that people originally looked at is that there is a natural delay in the system before we can talk of a positive outcome in terms of generating a job for somebody. That delay has allowed the statistics to be used to try to make a political point about the programme. I know for a fact that the trade body representing Work programme providers has been particularly annoyed and upset at the way in which some of the statistics that have been released, which often have not indicated the time lag in the programme’s performance, have been used to try to make a point about the way the programme is performing.

Another interesting, key point highlighted in the report’s summary is about the importance of the relationship between Work programme providers and jobcentres. That relationship is highlighted as a weakness of the programme, but I have to say—I can speak only from personal experience in the area I represent—that one of the key factors behind the success of the Work programme in north Wales has been the positive relationship between jobcentres and Work programme providers. A key recommendation in the report is that different areas of the country, with different providers, should learn from each other. If providers in other parts of the country are having difficulties co-operating with their local jobcentres, and they want to learn some lessons, they are more than welcome to come to north Wales, where the relationship is working particularly well. That is not to say that the figures in north Wales are particularly good, but I will come to that, because there are problems facing the programme in different parts of the country that are not necessarily of the programme’s making. That is something I need to put on record.

Another point I want briefly to touch on is whether the Work programme can support all user groups. One of the programme’s crucial successes is in supporting young people back into employment. We have a youth unemployment problem, although it is not as bad as in some other European countries, and we should be thankful for that. There is no doubt that the youth contract and the financial support we offer employers to engage with young people looking for a job who are on the Work programme have been a success.

The report also highlights the fact that there is sometimes a lack of publicity, and of appreciation of what is happening and the support available to employers who want to recruit young people and to understand the Work programme. There is an obligation on Members of Parliament to highlight the support that is available. It does not matter what political party a Member represents; they will obviously prefer the Work programme to be a success. I wrote to hundreds of businesses in my constituency about the Youth Contract, highlighting the financial support available for young people on the Work programme who were job-ready, and willing and able to work, and explaining that if there were opportunities in those businesses the Work programme providers were ready and willing to help. I am glad to say that the initiative resulted in at least 20 young people securing jobs; I know that because employers have contacted me. That might be a small contribution, but as well as highlighting failures politicians have an obligation, where there is lack of publicity or understanding, to let employers know what support is available; because they are the ones who create jobs.

We have identified those under 24 as needing particular support, because of the challenges that they face in getting access to work. As everyone knows, it is easier to get into a job from a job. A young person without experience on their CV needs support to get a position. The Youth Contract has been a significant benefit to many young people, certainly in my part of the world, but perhaps there is a need to extend such support to other hard-to-reach groups. I have been keen to support young people looking for jobs in my constituency, but I am also aware that the average age of my constituents is among the highest in any constituency in the country, and certainly in Wales. A significant problem that we need to re-examine is how proactively to help those over 50 who are desperate to work. They may, despite having skills, have been out of the job market for some time. There is an argument for something similar to the Youth Contract, if funds permit at some point, to support those people. Perhaps we need to persuade employers that there is an advantage in recruiting such people from the Work programme.

[Guto Bebb]

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. One of the strengths of the Work programme in rural Wales is the fact that providers have been able to vary their targets for attracting people to self-employment. Originally, the significant targets for self-employment were given to providers in south Wales. However, statistics clearly showed that the self-employment option was not doing well in south Wales, but that in rural and north Wales there was considerable interest in taking that route. There is a significant amount of support available from Work programme providers, but, more importantly, there is flexibility in the system to allow the numbers to be switched, and that has benefited many in my part of the world.

[Stephen Timms]

The hon. Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) raised an interesting point. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it could be useful if eligibility to the new enterprise allowance were to be extended to participants in the Work programme? It is not available to them at the moment.

[Guto Bebb]

That, indeed, is one of the recommendations that I would make to the Department. I have been a key advocate of the new enterprise allowance. A long time ago I was an adviser to people starting out on the old enterprise allowance scheme. There are still businesses in my constituency that were established under that scheme. It is important to provide such joined-up support. I am not making a criticism; Work programme providers are giving valuable support in my constituency to people interested in self-employment. I appreciate the fact that they have developed strong relationships with local enterprise support providers, which is very important; the black box approach is a key issue for Wales. I agree that it would be helpful if the new enterprise allowance were available, especially when there is flexibility in the programme to allow figures and targets to be swapped between different parts of the country. We must not put barriers in the way of people who want self-employment.

Flexibility is a key part of the Work programme. There is no such thing as a standard client. That flexibility is crucial for reaching those who most need support and are most difficult to place. Work programme providers in various parts of the country have sometimes got access to quite specialist support services for individuals, to ready them for the jobs market, and often that support has been partially funded through European funding. For example, the European social fund has enabled some providers to refer Work programme clients to support schemes to make them more work-ready. The Welsh European Funding Office, an arm’s length body fully controlled by the Welsh Government, has decided not to allow Work programme clients access to any programme partially funded by the European social fund. That has been a great barrier to the black box approach. Indeed, Work programme providers in Wales that I have talked to—and certainly the two operating in my constituency—have been unable to get support for their clients that is available elsewhere. That might be support with numeracy, confidence-building or skills, but the providers are not allowed to refer clients to the programmes because of a decision that in Wales if a project is funded by the European social fund the support is not available to Work programme clients.

That is a matter of huge concern. As the report highlights, Welsh performance levels are not as impressive as those in other parts of the country. It could be argued that the economy and employment level in Wales are not as high as elsewhere, but private sector employment growth there, while not spectacular, has been positive since 2010. An extra 69,000 jobs have been generated in the Welsh economy and there is less dependence on the public sector than for a long time. It is bizarre that people who everyone recognises need to be supported into work—and often the ones who most need support—are denied access to programmes provided by further education colleges and specialist providers, just because they are Work programme clients. I am happy to say that evidence from the Welsh Government and the Department for Work and Pensions to the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, for its report on the Work programme in Wales, will highlight that discrepancy. It is worth pointing out that often the individuals who are worst affected by the decision not to allow Work programme participants to use the schemes may be exactly those who, according to the report we are considering today, are least well served by the Work programme. There is an issue for the DWP, but I also want the message to go out that the Welsh Government should carefully examine the reason why their definition of additionality in European funding differs so markedly from the one used in England.

I have written to small employers in my constituency; and I do not have many large ones. During the general election campaign the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was then the shadow Chancellor, wanted to visit my constituency. He asked for a list of employers with more than 500 members of staff, and I could offer him nothing but the local authority. My constituency is very dependent on small businesses; so I have tried to highlight the support available for small businesses from the Work programme. The other thing we have done in my constituency is to undertake a jobs fair, which was a success. We managed to get significant participation and, again, have seen positive outcomes in terms of jobs created. I said clearly to the local newspaper that if one person found a job as a result of the jobs fair, it was my time well spent. Two weeks later, we are up to seven, which is very positive, with another six interviews in the offing.

The key point from that meeting was the fact that a number of small businesses came up to me and said they were confused by the number of organisations telling them that they offered support. This is an important point that we need to get across: we have to ensure that the streamlined level of support and the understanding of what support is available is also part of the way in which we deliver the Work programme. The last thing we want is for employers to feel that it is too difficult to engage with such an important scheme as the Work programme.

My experience of the Work programme has been positive, but I am not somebody who says there is no way in which we can improve the system. We have had two years, and in my view, the programme is delivering well, but there are problems with specific groups who are being supported by it but are not particularly successful, at this point, in getting into employment. We need to look at such things as why there is a delay before somebody can be referred on to the Work programme. In many cases, the delay is because the job centre will be able to support individuals, because, as everybody knows, the opportunity for people to re-engage with the workplace is much higher when they have recently lost a job than it is after several months.

However, there is an issue about identifying individuals who might have specific barriers in terms of getting back into the workplace. Why would it not be possible for such people to be referred immediately on to the Work programme? I am not sure whether there would be a huge additional cost, but we would avoid the period in which somebody loses their confidence for a period because they are in the job centre system and perhaps feeling increasingly dejected as they are unable to get back into the workplace. When identifying someone as needing particular levels of support, it might be worth considering that such individuals could be referred to the Work programme earlier. If we have confidence, as I do, that the Work programme is adapting and meeting the challenges of helping people back into the workplace, the sooner we can refer some people on to it, the better. I would like people to consider that point.

It is also fair to say that the programme was established quickly. The Select Committee recognises that it was an achievement to get the contracts signed and the programme up and running so quickly, but there is always an opportunity to regroup and readdress some issues. I talk to providers in my constituency and yes, they are very enthusiastic about the scheme, yes, they are confident that they will deliver in due course, and yes, they are frustrated with some restrictions in a Welsh context, but one comment that comes out strongly is that the assessment of individuals based on the benefits that they currently claim is a blunt tool, in terms of identifying the required support.

I understand that the reason why that was the way forward initially was that we needed to get the scheme up and running, and obviously, we assess people in terms of what sort of benefits they qualify for. However, as we have more confidence in the providers of the Work programme—and increasingly, we are confident that in most parts of the country we have Work programme providers who know what they are doing—we need to have an increased level of understanding about individual clients’ needs. Ultimately, if there are barriers because of somebody being categorised for a particular benefit, and that barrier is stopping them getting the support they need, we should, at least, try to recognise that and address it in due course. There is an argument for looking carefully at the way in which we assess individuals in terms of the level of support that they need, rather the using the blunt instrument of the benefits that they are receiving.

We also have to look carefully at the fact that we are now coming to the end of the initial two-year period. Clearly, the aim and aspiration is that the vast majority of people in due course will find employment. Current figures show about 56% being returned to job centres and about 41% going into employment, while some have been lost, or have left the system in some way. That is not a bad performance—obviously, I would like to see a majority gaining jobs—but we need to start thinking carefully about what we do now. Do we extend the programme? I have talked to individual Work programme clients—and advisers—and what has been striking is that a number have said that it has taken them a significant period of time simply to rebuild their confidence, and to feel that they can face an employer across a table and try and sell themselves. The coalition Government and, certainly, the DWP need to think carefully about whether there is mileage in extending the Work programme for particular clients for longer than two years. The two-year period is, again, a blunt instrument, because it is one rule for all, despite the fact that we recognise that some individuals need more support than others.

Nobody would deny that we can look at ways to improve the system, but we should be doing so from the point of view of claiming that there are great success stories and significant developments in the Work programme that are helping people get back into employment. As politicians, we need to be constructive friends of the Work programme. Where concerns exist, we need to highlight them, but we need to do so in the context of acknowledging that with a significantly better value-for-money ratio, the programme is delivering support and delivering people back into the workplace. Can it do more? Of course it can. Do we want it to do more? Of course we do. Can the Government look at ideas about changing elements of the programme to be more supportive of those who find it most difficult to find employment? Yes, I think the Government should, but we should also recognise that to date, the programme is a success story. I only hope that that success continues and is enhanced, and if changes result in that enhancement being even greater, no one would be more pleased than me.

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[Guto Bebb]

According to House of Commons Library figures, 96,000 participants have completed 104 weeks, of which 54,000 have returned, meaning that 40,000 have gone into employment.

[Stephen Timms]

The numbers I have are slightly different, but we can look up the figures. Certainly, 50,000 people spending two years going back to the jobcentre is a disappointing start, but I hope that we will see better figures in future.

I was struck forcefully by something that the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in his spending review statement about the task facing the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. He said:

“That will require a difficult drive for efficiency, and a hard-headed assessment of underperforming programmes.”—[Official Report, 26 June 2013; Vol. 565, c. 314.]

The Select Committee is right to address key issues underpinning the underperformance of the Work programme identified by the Chancellor. The Centre for Economic and Social Inclusion has been commissioned to carry out the official evaluation of the Work programme, and I think that it will produce an interesting piece of work. In its analysis of the 26 September on the most recent performance data, it points out that two years in, the Work programme is not performing as well as the flexible new deal. The percentage of those over 25 entering the programme who secured a job in two years is 35%; it was 38.9% under the flexible new deal. The Minister’s predecessor but two used to castigate the flexible new deal. It turns out, according to CESI observations, that it was better than the current programme.

One thing that would help, and that the Minister could do quickly, would be to lift the ban on providers publishing data about what is going on in their areas. The ban was introduced—let us be frank—to safeguard the career prospects of the then Minister who introduced it, to whom I recall that the present Minister was Parliamentary Private Secretary, and in that it was successful. The right hon. Gentleman was promoted to his current post in September 2012 and a few weeks later we saw the first Work programme performance data, by which time he was safely off the scene. The ban means that information about what works well has been disseminated much too slowly and the underperformance that concerns the Chancellor, and I suspect all of us, would have been less if providers had been free to publish their performance data, as they were in the past.

The Government’s “Open Public Services” White Paper says:

“To make informed choices and hold services to account people need good information, so we will ensure that key data about public services, user satisfaction and the performance of all providers from all sectors is in the public domain”.

Actually, we had a complete ban on any data at all for the first 18 months of the Work programme. There are still no data, as the Select Committee has pointed out, about subcontractor performance. The “Open Public Services” White Paper, published by the Cabinet Office, uses the phrase

“all providers from all sectors”,

but we have still had nothing at all from the subcontractors. From that quote, I want to pick up the point about user satisfaction, which the Select Committee report also mentions. The Select Committee called, quite rightly, for regular surveys of user satisfaction on the Work programme, which would be valuable information. The “Open Public Services” White Paper had an effusive foreword written by the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister, in which they signed up to its goals. We should understand the user experience on the Work programme. The Government’s response to that recommendation is simply to tell us that there will be a couple of surveys of people who have been on the Work programme. That is not what the White Paper stated was going to happen. There should be much more information about what people are experiencing. The fact that there is not is one of the reasons for the underperformance that the Chancellor has pointed out.

The hon. Member for Eastbourne was absolutely right to highlight concerns about the performance of the Work programme for people on employment and support allowance. The Work programme invitation to tender stated that if nothing was done, 15% of those people would find a sustained job outcome within two years. The minimum performance standard was set at 10% above that, which is 16.5%. Paragraph 3.18 of the invitation to tender states:

“DWP expects that Providers will significantly exceed these minimum levels.”

They have actually achieved, as the hon. Gentleman stated, 5.8%. The Royal National Institute of Blind People tells me that 690 people with sight impairments were referred to the Work programme in its first 22 months, and 20 of them got sustained job outcomes. St Mungo’s has sent us a briefing for the debate, which tells us that 54% of homeless people surveyed for St Mungo’s, Crisis and Homeless Link reported seeing their Work programme adviser once a month or less frequently. It is not surprising, therefore, that very few of those who face serious hurdles—people with health problems and people who are homeless—have got into work.

I was in Australia last week, where I talked to people about those issues. There are quite a few providers that operate both in Australia and in the UK, and they said that the Work programme model was wrong and that “creaming and parking” was endemic; the hon. Member for Eastbourne has touched on that. I agree with the Select Committee that specialist voluntary sector providers have not been used enough. They have been squeezed out. In Australia, I was told that 50% of provision is from the voluntary sector, and I think in the Work programme it is about 20% and going down. As others have said in this debate, some good resources are not being utilised. St Mungo’s is a very good example. It had a contract with several prime providers in London, which was signed when the Work programme started in June 2011. By April 2012 it had not had a single referral, and it had to pull out and give up.

I agree with the suggestion that we should have a proper jobseeker classification model, which we do not have at the moment. There are many things that should be said, but I will conclude with this. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is right: the programme is underperforming. The Minister, who I welcome once again to her new role, has the opportunity to address that underperformance. Some of it can be addressed quite quickly, and the Select Committee report can be a real help. I wish the Minister well in her new role and I look forward to her reply.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Stephen Timms and Guto Bebb

Monday 13th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

The question of the income levels of the self-employed is not as simple as the right hon. Gentleman makes out. Under the current capital allowance system, a self-employed individual can invest £25,000 in a piece of machinery and immediately wipe off their profits, and it causes deep resentment when they are then able to claim family tax credit. The Government are trying to create a system that supports the self-employed but is fair to other taxpayers.

[Stephen Timms]

The problem is that the proposed system does not support the self-employed in the way that the tax credit system supports them, because it treats the self-employed as if they are earning at least the minimum wage for every hour they put into their business. I know that the hon. Gentleman is genuinely interested in the position of the self-employed and I think he is supportive of self-employment, but he will know that it is absurd to suggest that a person who starts up in self-employment will be earning at least the minimum wage from day one. That will not be the case, of course; there may be weeks, or perhaps months, in which they earn nothing at all. The current tax rate system reflects that, but the new system will not.

[Guto Bebb]

Obviously I support the self-employed and want the universal credit system to support them, but we need to recognise that there are situations such as the following: somebody sets up in business to breed angora rabbits for their wool and manages to make £80 in sales in the year. I have not made that up, and it is absurd that that type of business should be supported by the taxpayer.

[Stephen Timms]

I am sorry to hear the hon. Gentleman belittling self-employment. For many people, including people who have lost their jobs, a move into self-employment can be absolutely the right thing to do, and, over time, they might find that they are able to develop a serious business—not breed rabbits—and earn a living from it. We should be valuing, not ridiculing, such contributions to the economy. I am afraid that there are many problems with the Bill, and one of them is that it so badly weakens and undermines the support that is currently available for self-employment.

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[Stephen Timms]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that self-employment is a crucial element of our economy for many people, including those with caring responsibilities; others who, for other reasons, are not necessarily able to commit to a full-time job; and, indeed, those who simply want the opportunity to build up a business for themselves—it is crucial that the system supports them. Tax credits have done so, but I am afraid that universal credit will not. That is a real worry and the approach being taken flies in the face of Government statements of support for self-employment.

[Guto Bebb]

rose—

[Stephen Timms]

I will gladly give way, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will support self-employment this time.

[Guto Bebb]

I am surprised to hear those comments. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is talking about supporting businesses and self-employed people perhaps working a day a week or two days a week. How does that fit in with his proposals on supporting child care in respect of micro-jobs and part-time jobs?

[Stephen Timms]

I have made it clear that the priority should be to maintain child care support for those who are currently receiving it. There is a case, with which perhaps the hon. Gentleman agrees, for extending that support to others. If that is to be done—and I can well see the case for it—the funding needs to be provided for it. What we cannot do is take support away from one group, making work impossible for them, in order to support another group. If we only knew the Government’s policy on child care support, we could have a proper debate about it, but that appears to be where they are heading. They simply have not had the ability to put a policy together and tell us what it is. The hon. Gentleman has suggested that perhaps too many self-employed people are either earning a negligible amount or are under-declaring their profits.

[Guto Bebb]

It is important to correct the record. I did not state that self-employed people were under-declaring their profits; I simply stated that the capital allowance system allows the self-employed, completely legally, to reduce their profits to nothing by purchasing an asset. That was the simple point that I was making.

[Stephen Timms]

That is a long-standing feature of the tax system for businesses generally, and we should be encouraging investment. I see it as a strength of the current system that such necessary investment is supported. The hon. Gentleman is right in the sense that universal credit will remove all that completely. I am afraid that, as the Chartered Institute of Taxation has pointed out, it will be a far less supportive system for self-employment than the current one.

[Guto Bebb]

Again, I need to clarify the record. It is important to understand that the capital allowance system has been changed fundamentally in the past two years as a response to the economic crisis that we are facing. Someone could not previously claim 100% allowances, but they can at this point in time. A 100% allowance on the purchase of an asset worth £25,000 results in the net profits of a small business reducing to nothing and therefore they are supported by the tax credits system. It is important that this Government support the self-employed, but not in a way that encourages them to make investment decisions for the purpose of universal credit rather than for the purpose and benefit of their own business.

[Stephen Timms]

I am not clear whether the hon. Gentleman supports the fact that we have had 100% capital allowances recently, although I hope he does. When the downturn hit, they were introduced for a very good reason, which was to encourage enterprise and investment, particularly on the part of small businesses.

One of the problems with the Bill is that in many cases self-employed people will be strongly pressured to lie about the hours they have worked. They are not going to admit to having worked 18 hours a day, as some are doing, because they will then lose pound for pound from their universal credit, as it will be assumed that for every one of those 18 hours they have earned at least the minimum wage. This is a bad policy and it needs to be changed.

Amendment 33 may cause some puzzlement. Many people will not know that the Government intend to remove pension credit from people over pensionable age who have a spouse under pensionable age. That has not been announced anywhere and the Pensions Minister has not stood up to tell us about it. We find it buried in, of all places, the middle of schedule 2, on page 114 of this Bill. If the older person were living alone, they would receive pension credit. Those people will in future be penalised because they have a younger spouse. This is a new couples penalty, but we have been assured that the Conservative party wanted to stamp out such penalties. Indeed, the Secretary of State said, once again, in DWP questions earlier that he wanted to remove couples penalties from the system—but here he is inventing a new one. That will change the pension entitlements for some couples with very little notice and, in some cases, by a substantial sum. If Ministers want to change the arrangements for pension credit, they should set that out openly, the provisions should be made in the Pensions Bill and there should be full discussion of the change. They should certainly not try to sneak it past us in the second schedule to this Bill.

We have now established that of the 610,000 recipients of pension credit with a partner, almost 100,000 have a partner aged under 60. The difference between the couple rate for jobseeker’s allowance and the pension credit rate is more than £100 a week, so for each year that a couple is in receipt of JSA rather than pension credit, those couples stand to lose more than £5,000.