Disability Benefits: Assessments

Debate between Stephen Timms and Justin Tomlinson

Monday 4th September 2023 Westminster Hall

[Sir Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

I am grateful for the chance to speak in the debate, to the Petitions Committee for having arranged it, and to the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot Colburn) for opening it. He kindly referred to my Select Committee’s report on health assessments for benefits, which was published in April, and my speech will draw on what we said in that report. We also published the Government’s response to the report in June, since when I have been in correspondence with the Minister about some of the key points that arose.

The annex to our report is well worth a look. It is based on a survey of 8,500 people, who told us about their experience of using the system and going through the assessments. They included people with lifelong conditions and people with experience of the use of medical evidence, both of which are topics covered in the petitions.

I will not comment in the debate on the adequacy of the benefits—the Select Committee has an inquiry under way on UK benefit levels that is focused on that—but I must say that over the summer a good deal of concern continued to be raised about the benefits we are talking about not meeting claimants’ extra costs, as they are intended to.

The Government have recognised the need to transform the system, including in their White Paper. I welcome many of the reforms that have been announced—including, to pick up on a point made by the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington, in respect of the testing of the use of specialist assessors—but the problem is that they are going to take years to implement. We need to take further action, given the gravity of the problems that we have already heard about in the debate.

A very important recommendation in our report was that assessments should be recorded by default. They should always be recorded, unless the claimant chooses to opt out of having their assessment recorded. The Government have said no to that recommendation, presumably because it would cost a little more, but I really think that is a mistake. All the assessment providers that are contracted by the Department support the recommended change, as do many of the respondents to our survey. It is the only way to get to the bottom of why things go wrong so often.

The hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington rightly gave the statistics that show that the great majority of appeals against the refusal decisions that come out of assessments are upheld. Surely that shows that something fundamental is wrong. We will get to the bottom of why that is only if assessments are routinely recorded, so that when things go wrong it is possible to look at what actually happened in the assessment and try to learn from the errors to get things right in future.

In his recent letter to me, the Minister said:

“claimants may need to discuss sensitive and personal information at the assessment and may not want this to be recorded”.

Of course, he is quite right about that, which is why we need a proper opt-out for applicants who do not want their assessment to be recorded. Has the Department considered how, if recording by default were introduced, it would be possible to mitigate those risks, which the Minister is right to be concerned about? Has it also looked at what the impact would be on mandatory reconsideration if recording by default were introduced, because I think it would be extremely helpful. If those assessments are not routinely recorded, we will never get the feedback needed to put these serious problems right.

I want to pick up the point about covert assessment, which was raised by both the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington and my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North (Charlotte Nichols). This is a serious and real problem. We called in our report for the Government to

“urgently investigate the use of covert surveillance by assessors”.

Unfortunately, in their response, the Government said no—I am afraid I will be using that word quite a lot in what I have to say today. They said:

“all assessment providers strongly refute the suggestion that they undertake”

covert assessment, but reports of this happening are much too widespread to be ignored, and the Government should look at that.

We are concerned as well about the system for claimants aged 16 to 18. On turning 16 in England and Wales, claimants must move from disability living allowance to PIP through a full-claim process requiring—until recently—a face-to-face assessment, but claimants in Scotland can stay on DLA until the age of 18. The Government’s White Paper acknowledged the need to help with the transition from DLA to PIP, but our conclusion was that young people in receipt of DLA should not be required to claim PIP until the age of 18, and where under-18s decide to claim PIP, they should have light-touch, paper-based assessments until the age of 18.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

Will the right hon. Member give way?

[Sir Stephen Timms]

I will gladly give way to the former Minister.

[Justin Tomlinson]

It is a difficult and fine balance, because the counter-argument is that the current approach allows people, before they turn 18 and therefore become fully responsible for their own living costs and housing arrangements, to know exactly where they are. So it is not a black and white issue.

[Sir Stephen Timms]

The hon. Member is right: these are often difficult judgments, but I would like to know what discussions the Minister has had with Ministers in Scotland about how things have worked in practice there. I would also like to know what progress the Department has made on plans for 16 to 18-year-olds in work in the severe disability group. I take the point that there are often quite fine judgments to be made, but the unanimous view of the Work and Pensions Committee was that it would be right to move to a system where applicants were not required to move on to PIP until the age of 18.

The Minister will know of concerns that were raised over the summer about pre-application screening questions in the new online PIP application form, which is being developed at the moment, and of the fears being expressed that people will be wrongly put off claiming by those questions, which have not been a feature of the application process before. In winding up, will he say something about those concerns and update us on progress with the online claims system for PIP, which, in principle, is something I very much welcome.

At the moment, claimants have 20 days to return ESA and universal credit forms and a month for PIP forms, and of course they have to send all the supporting evidence in at the same time. Each of those forms runs to tens of pages. The Association of Disabled Professionals told us that this deadline is very difficult to comply with. The deadline starts from the date on the letter, not the date the letter was received. The Association said:

“it is extremely rare for a letter to reach the claimant within five to seven working days of the letter being sent.”

In the pandemic, claimants had three months in which to return the forms. I think there were considerable advantages to that. Mind told us that extending the deadline could

“reduce the need for Mandatory Reconsiderations or Appeals”

by ensuring that the right decision was made first time around. So we recommended a compromise whereby claimants would have two months in which to return forms. Unfortunately, in its response, the Department said no. However, I wonder whether the Minister recognises that the time to return forms is being reduced by delays in getting those forms out to people. We have been hearing that, typically, at least a week—seven of the 20 days—is disappearing before the claimant receives the request.

As we have heard, one of the e-petitions is about considering disability benefit claims on medical advice alone. I am sure the Minister will point out—he will be right to do so—that, as the Work and Pensions Committee heard, GPs and other medical professionals may not know exactly what is needed for a functional assessment. We certainly heard repeatedly that the British Medical Association is absolutely clear that doctors do not want to take on this additional job.

However, the Committee wanted better use of another kind of evidence, which is evidence from family and carers. We heard that the way in which their input is received “is incredibly patchy”, as is whether their input is welcomed or not. The PIP guidance for assessors is explicit that evidence from carers and family should be considered but, anecdotally, it appears quite often that it is not. So we called on the Government to review the guidance, and I am pleased to say that, on this occasion, the Government did respond positively to our recommendation. Will the Minister update us on progress with that review and say when it will be completed?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Timms and Justin Tomlinson

Monday 25th January 2021 Commons Chamber

[Justin Tomlinson]

Further to the principle that if a claimant could be better off on UC than on legacy benefits they have the ability to apply to go on to UC, as a Government we have increased support for people with disabilities through the main disability benefits by an extra £3 billion in real terms since 2010. We are proud of our record.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

But people claiming severe disability premium cannot switch to universal credit; they are not allowed to. The costs facing many in that group have increased by more than average during the pandemic. Why is that particular group denied the £20 a week increase?

[Justin Tomlinson]

The SDP gateway comes to an end in a couple of days, so those claimants will also be able to see whether they would be better off under universal credit. However, as I said, it is part of the wider support available, and those with disabilities in particular will have benefited from the annual uprating increases in disability living allowance, personal independence payment and attendance allowance. That is how we have delivered the additional £3 billion-worth of support in real terms for those with disabilities and health conditions.

Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for Workers

Debate between Stephen Timms and Justin Tomlinson

Wednesday 18th March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Justin Tomlinson]

Let me make a little progress, because I think I am about to cover some of the things being asked about. I promise that I will take more interventions.

Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures, which is why we have extended statutory sick pay to those who are self-isolating in line with the latest Government health guidance. The guidance is available online on gov.uk and ensures that eligible individuals, whether they are sick or self-isolating, will be entitled to statutory sick pay if they are unable to work because they are following Government advice.

The upcoming emergency Bill will mean that for people affected by coronavirus, statutory sick pay will be payable from day one, instead of day four, and currently it will be backdated to 13 March. We removed those waiting days to get support to people as quickly as possible. These are crucial measures to ensure that employees do not attend work when they should stay at home to help to keep themselves and others safe. The circumstances are exceptional and we urge employers to do the right thing, use their discretion and respect the medical need to self-isolate.

Statutory sick pay is a legal minimum, and employers can offer more. Where possible, employers should support their employees to work from home to help to slow the spread of the virus. If employers do feel the need to require evidence, people who are advised to self-isolate for coronavirus will soon be able to obtain an alternative to the fit note by contacting NHS 111 rather than visiting a doctor. We are all aware of the need to protect GP surgeries so that they can concentrate on key areas of work.

Accordingly, the Government will ensure that businesses are supported to deal with the temporary economic impact of the outbreak of coronavirus. Small and medium-sized enterprises are at the heart of our economy, symbolising the hard work and enterprising spirit of our nation. To support such employers with the increased costs of sick pay, the emergency Bill will provide that employers with fewer than 250 employees can reclaim up to two weeks’ statutory sick pay for sickness absences related to coronavirus. That includes those who are required to self-isolate in line with Government guidance. The measure could provide more than £2 billion of support for up to 2 million businesses, and will be crucial to ensure that our economy keeps running.

The measure on statutory sick pay is in addition to others to support businesses that were outlined by the Chancellor yesterday: £330 billion of Government-backed and guaranteed loans; additional cash grants of up to £25,000 for businesses in the retail, hospitality and leisure sectors with a rateable value of less than £51,000; and cash grants of £10,000 to 700,000 of our smaller businesses. The Government will do whatever it takes to support our economy.

Of course, not everyone is eligible for statutory sick pay, which is paid by employers. Gig workers and those on zero-hours contracts may be entitled to sick pay, and should check with their employer, but millions of hard-working people who are self-employed or in the gig economy will need our help, too. That is why we are making it easier to access benefits during this period.

The shadow Secretary of State talked about disability benefits and the announcement that we made earlier this week. The first decision was to remove face-to-face assessments, because we recognise that a significant proportion of those who could be claiming disability benefits are vulnerable. We want to avoid them needing to travel unnecessarily and to sit in busy waiting rooms, so we decided to stop face-to-face assessments. However, we do not want to stop new people gaining access to the support that they are entitled to, so we are seeking to continue to do paper-based and telephone reviews, but prioritising those who are new claimants, and looking at the workforce on a daily basis.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

I very much agree with the policy that the Minister is setting out. Will he clarify the intention for reassessments? He will know that Mind and one or two others have suggested that reassessments ought not to go ahead at the moment, partly because it is very difficult for people to get medical evidence in support of their reassessment claim at a time when doctors are very busy with something else.

[Justin Tomlinson]

I absolutely understand that point, and the right hon. Member and I discussed it when we first made the announcement. The absolute priority has to be new claimants who are seeking to get support through the disability benefit system, so we are looking on a daily basis at what we can do. I do not envisage that we will be able to do much beyond that, but I want to make sure that new claimants can get support. That was why, at the beginning of my speech, I paid tribute to the fantastic work of those who are working on the frontline, who—like all people—are anxious about events, but are still, when they can, coming in to make sure that the vulnerable people in society can access the support that they are entitled to.

Universal Credit Fraud

Debate between Stephen Timms and Justin Tomlinson

Wednesday 10th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Justin Tomlinson]

On the specifics of the meetings, I will have to write to provide a full answer. However, we are seeing that the cases that are being reported are clustered around particular areas, so there is a real focus in those areas on raising awareness and on targeting often very sophisticated criminal activity. As we bring forward prosecutions, we are finding that that is making a significant difference as a proactive deterrent, and rightly so.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

Ministers have made one monumental misjudgment after another with universal credit. The five-week delay is forcing people into debt and dependency on food banks, and now we learn that it has opened up a bonanza for crooks and fraudsters. Will the Minister now urgently review the catastrophic five-week delay policy?

[Justin Tomlinson]

As is very clear, any claimant can access financial support from day one where it is needed. We will continue to do all that we can to ensure that everybody benefits from the personal, tailored approach that universal credit offers, which is an integral part of how we are helping to deliver record employment across all regions of this country.

Supporting Disabled People to Work

Debate between Stephen Timms and Justin Tomlinson

Thursday 28th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

The disability employment gap fell steadily in the years up to 2010. It has since got stuck at a level just above 30%. David Cameron, in the 2015 election campaign, promised to halve it by 2020, a pledge that was quickly abandoned after the 2015 election. What does the Minister now believe will happen to the disability employment gap over the next five years?

[Justin Tomlinson]

The right hon. Gentleman is one of the most constructive and proactive Members of the Opposition pushing on this very important area. When we came to office, disability employment stood at 44.1%. It has now gone to 51.5%. That is up 7.4%, with the gap closing by 3.6%. I expect that trend to continue over the next five years.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Stephen Timms and Justin Tomlinson

Monday 19th November 2018 Commons Chamber

[Justin Tomlinson]

I am very sorry to hear of that. If there are specific cases, please do not hesitate to highlight them. Through the roll-out of the landlord portal, which has been warmly welcomed by social housing companies and local authorities, there is an opportunity for claimants and housing bodies to work together to manage this migration process smoothly.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

The Minister knows that the five-week delay under universal credit forces people into debt right at the start of their claim, which too often leads to rent arrears and other hardships. I welcome the new Secretary of State to her post. Will the Minister encourage her to take a fresh look at this indefensible five-week delay in particular?

[Justin Tomlinson]

As we have pointed out, those transitioning from legacy benefits will get the additional two weeks of housing benefit and, with the new measures announced, two weeks of either their employment and support allowance, their jobseeker’s allowance or their income support, as well as access to advance payments from day one. The key thing is that this system mirrors the world of work. For the vast majority of people, their aim is to get into work, and in work they would expect to be paid in arrears. They would have to deal with that at the same time as going back into work, whereas now the personalised work coach can provide support by giving them access to advance benefits and pointing them to the support offered by Citizens Advice and our wider universal credit support network. It is about providing that support as people prepare themselves for the world of work.

Welfare Cap

Debate between Stephen Timms and Justin Tomlinson

Monday 12th December 2016 Commons Chamber

[Justin Tomlinson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for making that very important point. Large employers, with their well-resourced HR and highly educated personnel teams, are very good at making such changes—they are often small changes—to take full advantage of the disabled people who are looking to work and have the great skills and abilities needed to fill the existing skills gaps. Small and medium-sized businesses often do not have the necessary confidence and skills, and may not even be aware of the talent that is available.

The small employer pilot is so important because it is about going around industrial parks, business parks and shops to ask, “Where are your skills gaps? We will match them to the people who are looking for work.” We have had some really encouraging results from the pilots. I had a Disability Confident event in my constituency, and the Shaw Trust managed to place a further 22 people. We got small and medium-sized employers who had never thought about doing this to come forward and say, “These are our skills gaps. Please help find people for us.”

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman rightly makes the point that the rate of employment among disabled people has risen, but the overall employment rate has risen as well, so the disability employment gap has not been reduced. Why has there not been any progress on that issue?

[Justin Tomlinson]

The right hon. Gentleman has been very diligent on this issue, and he is determined to be proactive in supporting disabled people to have such an opportunity. The reality is that the growing economy is benefiting everyone, but perversely, the last time we had a recession, the disability gap actually shrank because non-disabled people came out of work at a quicker rate than the disabled people. If we had a recession, we would not celebrate the closing of the gap if people were also coming out of work.

Greater minds than mine will now have to decide what way to go. For what it is worth, I think the only thing that matters is that, as quickly as possible, more disabled people should have an opportunity for work year on year. We should be looking at ways to do that. When we came to office, the then Prime Minister said that we wanted to halve the disability employment gap, which meant employing about 1 million more disabled people. We should be trying to get to that target as quickly as possible, by looking at it annually. Stakeholders and charities are keen that we can demonstrate on an annual basis that we are making real, tangible progress. So far, with 590,000 more disabled people in work in the past three years, progress has been good, but there is still much more that needs to be done.

The final area I want to mention is disability benefits. As a Government, we now spend £3 billion more a year, which is welcome. That recognises the fact that under the old system of disability living allowance, only 16.5% of claimants accessed the highest rate of benefit, while under PIP, the figure is about 22.5%, because the system recognises hidden impairments better, particularly mental health ones. It is right that we are getting support to the most vulnerable people in society as quickly as we can.

However, I have an ask. Everybody in Parliament recognises that we have a growing challenge with mental health conditions in this country. Whether in relation to people in work, people trying to get into work or people in their everyday lives, about one in four people will have a mental health condition at some point. I suspect whoever was in government would, like our Government, look to committing additional funding to support people with mental health conditions. One of the challenges is that no one has quite resolved the best way to direct and provide such support. There are lots of different pilots, but we have a real opportunity in that the one way in which we are identifying people with mental health conditions is through the PIP benefit. However, we do not do anything with that information: we do not signpost people who have gone through the system and been identified as having a mental health condition to the traditional support offered by the NHS, local charities, support groups and so on. I am not looking to get people off PIP.

Employment and Support Allowance and Universal Credit

Debate between Stephen Timms and Justin Tomlinson

Thursday 17th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate, although I have a feeling of déjà vu, as I was talking about this subject only yesterday—no wonder “Groundhog Day” is one of my favourite films. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) for his proactive work in this area. When I was a Minister, I enjoyed engaging with him on a number of occasions. He always brought forward real experience and practical suggestions to challenge the Government and hold them to account in this important area. It is also good to see so many Members in the Chamber, on both sides of the House, to engage in this debate—it is a credit to them. That is important, because the Department has excellent Ministers who genuinely do listen, engage, act and influence the direction of policy.

I wish briefly to talk about the background to the current position. Yesterday I talked a lot about universal credit and less about the ESA WRAG, but today I will flip that around. The Government have introduced the national living wage, which has helped 2.75 million of our lowest earners, and we hope that it will rise to more than £9 an hour by 2020. We have increased the personal allowance from £6,495 to £11,000, taking the lowest 3.2 million earners out of paying any income tax. This country has the strongest economic growth of any developed economy, which is delivering record employment, with yesterday’s figures showing another 461,000 people entering work. We have also seen 590,000 more disabled people in work in the past three years—an increase of about 4%—although there is still much further to go.

[Stephen Timms]

I mentioned this yesterday, but let me remind the hon. Gentleman of the press release issued in his name by the Department for Work and Pensions on 29 June last year, which stated:

“The Government…aims to halve the gap between the disabled employment rate and the overall employment rate by 2020.”

Is he dismayed, as I am, that that commitment—he made the promise in good faith, I am sure—to a 2020 deadline has been abandoned by his successor?

[Justin Tomlinson]

I predicted that that intervention was coming, and it is an important point. The pledge was incredibly popular with stakeholders and focused officials’ minds. When I was a Minister, a lot of my work involved lobbying other Departments, so it was helpful when I was able to namecheck the then Prime Minister, as this was his personal pledge. I do not actually recall that press release, as my understanding was that we had not set the date because that was going to be determined in the Green Paper. Personally, I wanted to see significant progress year on year.

One problem with just adopting the approach in the pledge is that the number of disabled people in work could remain static yet in a recession the overall number of people in work could fall, meaning that the gap would close without any more disabled people benefiting. I wanted to set a target such as having 1 million more people in work by a certain date, which would mean that we would know that 1 million more disabled people had benefited. We were due to consult on that as part of the Green Paper process when I was in my ministerial role.

--- Later in debate ---

[Justin Tomlinson]

When I was a Minister, I was challenged on a whole host of issues, and that is what the charities are there to do. I feel that the extra support makes this approach worthwhile because only 1% of people are coming off that benefit. When people on ESA are surveyed, and when we talk to them in our constituencies, we find that the overwhelming majority are desperate to be given an opportunity to work.

[Stephen Timms]

rose—

[Justin Tomlinson]

I am running out of time, so I will try to wrap up. I have only two minutes left.

The Green Paper includes proposals for more personalised and tailored support, as well as quicker assessments. That is particularly important because 50% of people on ESA have a mental health condition, but typically wait nine months for an assessment. The Green Paper will address that by making sure that people are assessed quickly and given support before they navigate often difficult personal challenges when they take the step back into work.

There will be a place on the work and health programme or Work Choice for those who wish to take it—it is a voluntary opportunity. There will be additional places on the very popular specialist employment support programme. There will be job clubs run by peers—people with disabilities who have gone through the system and overcome their fear at the thought of going back into the process. That is often a big fear for people who have been out of work for a long time. There will be 200 new community partners; again, this is about utilising disability expertise. There will be increased access to work for young people with mental health conditions. There are further opportunities through the Disability Confident campaign.

My personal favourite, which I continue to champion, is the small employer offer. Time and time again, employers say to us, “We have skills gaps and we are struggling to find people to fill these roles,” but they have never thought to take on somebody with a disability because they lack the confidence to do so and do not realise that a huge amount of support is provided to help people to come into the workplace. Businesses that take that step benefit, more often than not, and I say that as a former employer who employed disabled people and benefited from doing so. I hope that the current small employer pilot will be expanded and will become a nationwide offer. It is making a significant difference.

The Chancellor was right to increase significantly the funding for Access to Work. On the fit for work scheme, we need to ensure that we provide advice at the beginning of a potential problem for people in work, not just at four weeks, because it is so much easier to keep people in work with suitable support than it is to get them back into work after they have dropped out. We have a fantastic ministerial team who are engaging with charities, with all their experience and knowledge, and the Green Paper represents a real opportunity.

Universal Credit Work Allowance

Debate between Stephen Timms and Justin Tomlinson

Wednesday 6th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Disabled People (Justin Tomlinson)]

I join the shadow Secretary of State in wishing everybody a happy new year. I am sorry that I am not the person with whom he wished to have this exchange, but this is a real area of passion for me. My background, my school, my work and starting my own business mean that I understand opportunity, which all too often is not a given in society. The changes that have helped shape my journey into politics are integral to why we need to reform the welfare state. That is absolutely key.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

Given the background that the Minister has set out, he will well understand why it would have been a mistake to go ahead with the tax credit cuts that were U-turned before Christmas. Why then are the Government going ahead with precisely those cuts for people whose only mistake is to have the misfortune of receiving universal credit instead of tax credits?

[Justin Tomlinson]

That was a very early intervention and, to be fair, I need a little time to expand my argument, which will address those points. An element of patience is needed; I know that we all needed it last night with the late sitting and the reshuffle news. A key point about tax credits was that people argued that all the changes needed to be phased in, and I will set that out.

The welfare system we inherited was simply not working. It was not supporting people to get into work, to stay in work and to progress in work. People were left with unfulfilled potential, languishing on benefits, with little or no incentive to work or to progress in work, and opportunity was stifled. Opportunity should be a given; it should not be stifled.

The truth is that our welfare system had become distorted and complex, as we all know from our casework with residents. Too often, residents were missing out on the benefits they were entitled to because they could not navigate something so complex. All too often, the system firmly shut the door on opportunity, because it paid more to be on benefits than to be in work. We all know that, and the electorate—hard-working families—were quick to remind us of it.

Let me be clear that I say that with no disapproval for those who claim benefits. The system itself was to blame, which is why we undertook to reform it. Our aim was and continues to be to create a system that extends opportunity and ensures that work always pays, moving Britain from a low wage, high welfare, high tax society to a higher wage, lower welfare, lower tax society. It is a common-sense approach, creating a system that is fairer to the taxpayers who face an ever-increasing bill and delivering a welfare system that is sustainable for our country but that, crucially, protects the most vulnerable.

Let me remind the House that welfare spending on people in work rose from £6 billion in 1998 to almost £28 billion in 2010.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Timms]

The Minister said in response to my earlier intervention that there were to be transitional arrangements, but the trouble is that people receiving universal credit will get the full cut in April this year. They are going to be clobbered.

[Justin Tomlinson]

I gently remind the right hon. Gentleman that I shall be going into those details later, so he needs to have just a little more patience.

Crucially and uniquely, universal credit stays with claimants when they enter work until their earnings reach a certain level or until they can support themselves. That gives them the confidence to start a job without having to go through the bureaucracy of changing their benefit claim. Universal credit is not just about IT or streamlining bureaucracy, as it is often portrayed. It is about people having a single point of contact with a work coach who provides personalised support, advice and guidance. This is where universal credit comes into its own, and this is the bit that I am really passionate about.

In life, we are all confident individuals and when we are faced with challenges it is a given that we can normally take them on, but that is not the case for everybody. We are now giving people a named personal contact to help them to deal with their individual case when they are navigating complicated benefit systems. That work coach will be by their side helping them to develop their role when they first get their foot in the door. They will not simply say, “We wish you all the best now you’ve got a job”. They will help them to make progress and develop their role. They will help them to seek and secure more hours, and to develop the skills and confidence to progress through the grades. In other words, universal credit will not only support people to move into a job; it will also help them to build a career. It will break the cycle of dependency and create opportunities.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Timms]

rose—

[Justin Tomlinson]

The hon. Member for Pontypridd has had his turn. I give way to the right hon. Gentleman.

[Stephen Timms]

I think we have now got to the appropriate point in the Minister’s speech. Does he acknowledge that the 50,000-plus working people who are today receiving universal credit will see their benefits sharply cut in April?

[Justin Tomlinson]

I will come on to those specific people—[Interruption.] In the overall numbers, it is the vast majority—[Interruption.] I am going to make some progress.

We have to see the bigger picture. A lot of the analysis that has gone on is static. Even the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which I know a lot of hon. Members will refer to, acknowledges that it is a static analysis. Universal credit is not a stand-alone measure. It is part of our wider, dynamic package of reforms to support families in work and to make sure work pays. We are raising the personal allowance to £11,000 for the next tax year, saving the typical taxpayer over £900 a year, and we have pledged to raise it to £12,500 by the end of this Parliament. The national living wage will come into effect from April. That will directly benefit 2.75 million people and it is forecast to reach over £9 an hour by 2020. That might upset Opposition Members who campaigned for £8 an hour, but we felt that that did not go far enough.

Draft Health and Safety at Work etc. act 1974 (General duties of self-employed persons) (Prescribed Undertakings) Regulations 2015

Debate between Stephen Timms and Justin Tomlinson

Tuesday 21st July 2015 General Committees

[Justin Tomlinson]

I thank the shadow Minister for his characteristically thoughtful and assured speech, in which he raised important points. I am delighted to hear about Barbara Castle’s involvement. She was my mother’s MP, so that bodes well.

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to highlight the importance of the long-term fall in injuries. The driver for that is not the £4.7 million, but ensuring that the perception of health and safety exists so that the workplace is made safer and businesses engage. As a former self-employed person in a relatively small office, I know that things are a lot harder for a small business than for companies with big human resources departments that are skilled and well-trained in such areas.

On why the list is not more exhaustive, those occupations listed were the ones that were deemed to involve high risk, and that therefore were high profile, but the crucial catch-all proviso remains. It is vital that we encourage wider engagement, and I have already done a huge amount of work with the HSE board. If we look at all the statistics over recent years, there has been good progress in how much businesses are engaging and their seeing that it is beneficial to do so, but the change will clarify where there is no risk and no duty, thus helping to reduce the perception that health and safety law is inappropriately applied, which was turning businesses off from engaging and helping to maintain a safe workplace.

As I said, it is not the £4.7 million that, in the grand scheme of things, will make a huge difference, but 1.7 million self-employed people. The Government consider that the proposal will encourage an increase in self-employment and boost economic growth by removing negative perceptions about health and safety law in circumstances in which there is a low risk of harm, which we would all welcome.

The shadow Minister rightly highlighted the need to ensure that people are aware of the changes and guidelines. Once the changes have been agreed by Parliament, the Health and Safety Executive will implement an extensive communications plan to publicise them. Every effort will be made to ensure that self-employed workers are aware of the changes and that they can easily understand how those changes affect them. That is especially the case for those to whom the law will continue to apply. As I have said, in recent years there has been a complete transformation in the documents and communications provided by the HSE, which has been well received by the business community, but the self-employed will not be exempt from the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974, only from section 3(2). Other sections will still apply even if someone is exempt from section 3(2), so this is not a complete wipe-away of any responsibility.

The right hon. Gentleman asked who is responsible if the wrong conclusion is reached. It is the duty of the self-employed person to understand that the law applies to them, and liability will not be based on a subjective understanding.

[Stephen Timms]

That is the point that troubles me most and I do not really understand that answer. The old position was that one was subject to the law, so the position was clear. Under the regulations, a person will be subject to the law if they pose a risk to someone else. I do not understand how somebody can make a sound assessment of whether, as a self-employed person, they pose a risk to somebody else.

[Justin Tomlinson]

Businesses have to make such decisions day after day. For example, they have to decide if they are subject to VAT conditions if they are in an industry in which certain products are VAT-able and others are not. A self-employed bookkeeper working at home who does not invite the public into their home would clearly be exempt according to the guidelines. If someone is coming into contact with the public and doing work that might pose a risk, they will be covered. That is why the guidelines will be produced, and self-employed people will make a judgment. It is estimated that approximately 1 million people will still be subject to health and safety law as they fall into those high-risk activities listed on the schedule.

Question put and agreed to.