Human Fertilisation and Embryology

Steve Baker Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Jane Ellison]

No, I cannot accept that description. I recognise that my hon. Friend has objections to the procedure, but I do not recognise his description. Nuclear DNA is not affected; mitochondrial DNA is different.

As well as paying tribute to the scientists at Newcastle university, I want to pay tribute to the Lily Foundation, a charity founded by families who have lost their children to serious mitochondrial disease, and who have shown us the human suffering behind this scientific advance. Many right hon. and hon. Members, like me, have constituents who are affected, and I am sure that some Members will talk about such families in their own speeches.

[Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

Does the Minister accept that a person born as a result of a mitochondrial replacement would not pass on mitochondrial disease to their successors? In other words, the germ line would have been modified so that the mitochondrial disease had stopped with their parents. It seems to me that if she accepts that the germ line has been modified, what she said a few moments ago cannot possibly be right.

[Jane Ellison]

We have made it clear that the removal of the faulty mitochondria will be passed on to the next generation. That is exactly what we have been describing, but I do not accept my hon. Friend’s description of it as genetic modification. It has to be said that there is no universally agreed definition of genetic modification, but for the purposes of these regulations, we have used a working definition and it involves not altering the nuclear DNA.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Miller]

The ethical basis on which science is conducted in this country is world leading. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that we should be immensely proud of the successes—again—of our scientific community in a range of life science disciplines. This one affects a very small group of the population but does so in such a profound way. Although there are issues that need properly regulating, the regulatory structure that we have created does that properly. The Minister was asked about, and indeed mentioned, the issues associated with designer babies. Of course this House would want to impose limits, but we are considering a specific set of regulations about dealing with mitochondrial disease—they do nothing else. I, for one, would not stand here to defend the concept of designer babies and people choosing eye colour and so on. Today, we are dealing purely with those terrible illnesses.

[Steve Baker]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Andrew Miller]

No, as it would not be fair on other people. In case colleagues have not seen them, let me commend the e-mails sent to all Members by the Muscular Dystrophy Campaign; Jonathan Kingsley wrote to us all, and the Lily Foundation has written to us all in very powerful language. Those people who have sat and listened to some of the families will understand, and colleagues who have constituents affected by mitochondrial disease will understand the message.

We are in a society where people are entitled to have their beliefs, and I respect those beliefs; everyone should be entitled to express their opinion. But this is about focusing on the needs of that small part of the population that I mentioned. I urge the House, in coming to a conclusion this afternoon, to think about those families, to focus on their needs and to set aside general beliefs in the overwhelming interest of that small part of the population who have suffered immensely and who have an opportunity at their disposal because of the extraordinary science that has been advanced.

[Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

I approach this subject with a considerable degree of humility, for two reasons. First, I will never forget meeting a family in my constituency whose child suffers from mitochondrial disease; there was both a haunting sorrow in that family and the hope that if these regulations are passed they will be able to have a child without this problem. Secondly, I am very aware of my own shortcomings in relation to biological science. As a chartered engineer, I am perhaps more competent in the physical sciences, and I do not mind admitting that I had to look up at least a few of the words in the regulations in order to understand them.

As I have listened to this debate, not only today but previously, I have wondered whether we have really reflected on how science proceeds, because scientific truth is not established by authority or by democratic vote; it is established, as Karl Popper put it, through “conjecture and refutation”—trial and error. Someone who reads Thomas Kuhn’s “The Structure of Scientific Revolutions” will discover that it is possible for quite large bodies of knowledge to be developed with errors in them. When those errors are corrected, the paradigm shifts—that is a term we have all heard. That is how science proceeds, through trial and error. The reality is that there will always be uncertainty in any scientific procedure.

When the Commons Library summarised the Nuffield Council on Bioethics’ review, the second point mentioned was this:

“The knowledge about these techniques is uncertain and could remain so for several generations—their use could potentially harm future persons.”

The hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger), speaking from the Front Bench, made the point that, broadly, the question before us was whether there was a reason to withhold these techniques from people. If there is a reason, it is that they may do harm to future persons. I will not support the measure because this is inherently uncertain. That uncertainty is an inherent part of science, and it is no good appealing to authority to try to resolve the question, because different authorities will disagree and there is no way to resolve those disagreements apart from through empirical evidence, which we can obtain only by experimenting on humans.

[Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman is making a typically thoughtful contribution to this important debate. Does he not have to balance that uncertainty, which he points out fairly, with the 100% certainty that the children of mothers with mitochondrial disease will suffer?

[Steve Baker]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, which is why I began by expressing the humility I feel on this subject as a result of meeting and having had a lengthy conversation with a family who face just that issue. I remind myself, however, that we are dealing here not with a cure for those who have already been born, but with ensuring that those who are subsequently born do not suffer from that disease. If we were discussing a cure for those already living, perhaps the circumstances might be different.

[Angela Smith]

Is prevention not better than cure?

[Steve Baker]

Prevention certainly is better than cure, but the question is: at what risk? I simply accept that on the earliest stages of human life there is a space for conscience; we will have different beliefs, some of which will be religious, and it is a matter of conscience. There are noble reasons for disagreeing about that stage and about what is and is not legitimate risk taking with human beings.

The second point I wish to make is that in the course of this conversation there seems to have been what, at best, I could describe as semantic sophistry as to whether or not this process is genetic modification. As always, there is space for debate about the definition of terms, but the germ line is to be modified if these techniques go ahead. The Minister has stated that plainly—

[Jane Ellison]

indicated assent.

[Steve Baker]

She nods, and I am grateful. If the germ line is to be modified, to me this is genetic modification. I heard the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) give a clear explanation of the separate origins, and he understands the science better than I do. But for me the key thing is not so much where these parts of the DNA identity of a person came from, but where they are now. Each one of us has our own particular DNA identity. This procedure changes only a tiny part of it, but, having changed it, we cannot know what the consequences will be. I know that families will be affected by the decision, but I have to say, with great sorrow, that, when it comes to human beings, this degree of uncertainty cannot be borne by my conscience and I shall be voting against the regulations.