Defence

Tobias Ellwood Excerpts

Monday 18th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Tobias Ellwood)]

I beg to move,

That the draft Armed Forces Act (Continuation) Order 2019, which was laid before this House on 24 January, be approved.

It is a pleasure to seek the support of this House for the order. In doing so, may I immediately begin by paying tribute to those who have worn the uniform and who wear the uniform, both as reservists and as regulars? I also pay tribute to those who support those in uniform; it is those in the armed forces community that we must also pay respect to, and we should be thankful for the sacrifices they make in supporting those who serve in the Army, the Air Force and the Royal Navy.

In Defence questions, we spoke about the duty of care—something that is critical to making sure we continue living up to the standards we have shown over the years. We have an enormous standard of professionalism in our armed forces, as a deterrent. Our allies revere us and want to work with us, and our foes fear us because of who we are.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

I entirely support what the Minister says about our recognition of those who support members of our armed forces; the armed forces community is very important. I know the Minister has that community very much in his heart and has their best interests in his mind, and he will be as concerned as I am that satisfaction with pay and pension benefits is the lowest ever recorded. What is being done in armed forces legislation and in the policies of the Government to try to increase morale and satisfaction among the people the Minister paid such warm tribute to?

[Mr Ellwood]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for highlighting that important point. I will be honest with the House and say that pay is becoming an issue. It was not before—people signed up because of what lay ahead of them, not because of the money. Today, however, the competition that we have in civilian life is such that when people make the judgment as to whether to step forward or not, pay is becoming an issue. We do not want it to be a deterrent to people joining the armed forces.

We are going through the armed forces pay review process, as we do every year, and I will do my utmost to make sure that we are able to pay our service personnel what they deserve, so that it does not become a reason for people not to step forward. I can say the same about accommodation. The reason I articulate these points is that we are shortly to have the spending review. When we talk about the spending review and the armed forces, the immediate assumption is that we are talking about equipment, training and operations. I do not take away from the fact that they must be invested in, but for my part of the portfolio it is critical that we look after the people, and pay is one aspect of that; accommodation is another. I am not able to build accommodation fast enough because of limits in funding.

As we make the case to the Treasury for further defence spending, I simply say that welfare issues must be considered in addition to the other big-ticket items that are normally discussed. Is the hon. Gentleman content with that answer?

[Toby Perkins]

It is the first time I have ever been positively encouraged to intervene—it could catch on.

I share the Minister’s views about the wider issues alongside pay. One of the other issues raised with me by members of the armed forces community is the sense of strategic vision on what the Army is for now. I challenged the Minister on this in Defence questions an hour or two ago and he said that there was a strong strategic vision for the Army in 2019. Can he tell us a bit more about what that is, because it is not entirely understood by some people who serve?

[Mr Ellwood]

I apologise for intervening on the hon. Gentleman while he was in a sedentary position.

I will come to defence posture shortly, so I hope that the hon. Gentleman will bear with me.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

Before my right hon. Friend gets on to defence posture, can he tell us whether he has taken note of the Army Families Federation’s recent report, which suggests that the future accommodation model is a major cause of concern among Army families, and a disincentive to remain in the armed forces?

[Mr Ellwood]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s service and the work that he has done in this area. I would not go so far as to say that the new FAM is causing the problems that he suggests. It needs to be rolled out faster. Those who are serving want to be able to get on the housing ladder, for example, and perhaps invest in a property outside the wire. We want to give individuals three options—to stay inside the garrison, which they might want to do when they sign up; to rent a property outside the wire; or to invest in a property, perhaps using the Help to Buy scheme, for example. My hon. Friend is right that it has taken longer than we wanted to roll out the pilot schemes to test the model, and I hope that will happen in the near future.

[Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend is right to talk about improving pay, conditions and accommodation. In addition, it is important that we collectively continue to say thank you and appreciate the work that our armed forces do. Will he join me in thanking the Royal Anglian Regiment, which happens to have the freedom of the town of Basildon, and all my constituents who serve in the regiment and across our armed services more widely?

[Mr Ellwood]

I am more than happy to pay tribute to the Royal Anglian Regiment. I served in the Royal Green Jackets, which was another infantry regiment—it is now the Rifles, I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Leo Docherty), who served in the Scots Guards. The Anglians show the benefit of having a local relationship and recruiting from the community. That is how the Army has developed in strength, with reservist communities and so forth. I am very happy to join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to that regiment.

[Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend will be aware that the Society of Conservative Lawyers recently published a pamphlet on the decision to go into a conflict situation. In its foreword, General Lord Houghton makes the point that it is very important for Army morale that a decision made by the Government can be implemented immediately, that the element of surprise over an enemy can be garnered in that way, and that therefore it should not always be necessary to have a parliamentary vote before committing armed forces. What does my right hon. Friend think?

[Mr Ellwood]

I agree with my right hon. and learned Friend. I am probably going to get into trouble by saying that—thankfully the Whips are not listening at the moment, so I can get away with much. I absolutely agree. The main example in my lifetime is August 2013, when we invited Parliament to make a judgment on whether to send in troops. One MP—I will not say who it was—did not feel qualified to decide and so invited members of the public to inform them of which way to vote. We should be able to make such a judgment—an Executive judgment—ourselves. Sometimes the delay in making a judgment on whether to step forward allows the adversary to regroup, hide or move on.

[Sir Oliver Heald]

Does my right hon. Friend also agree that we might want to commit forces for something like a hostage rescue, in which case it would be ridiculous to have to telegraph our plans in advance through Parliament?

[Mr Ellwood]

I say this out of interest, rather than because it is where I want to go, but the United States has the War Powers Act, which obliges the President to go to Congress to seek to continue any campaign that he or she might implement. I think it is absolutely imperative that we get back to that point. It is almost a matter of opinion; I appreciate that. However, if we are to become less risk-averse, we often need to move very quickly. As I will say shortly, there are ever fewer nations that are ready to stand up and protect our values in a fast-changing world. We are one of them, and we should not be held back by having to go through a parliamentary process.

[Leo Docherty (Aldershot) (Con)]

I would just like to dispel some of the gloom that has been spread by the Opposition in relation to the morale of our armed forces. I frequently meet members of the armed forces in my constituency of Aldershot, which is the home of the British Army. I meet fine young men and women from 1st Battalion the Scots Guards, 1st Battalion the Grenadier Guards, 4 Rifles and the Queen’s Gurkha Engineers, and their morale is extremely high because they are involved in an array of operational engagements overseas, and soldiers like to be busy. Young people watching this debate should be reassured that there is no better time to join the British Army, because they will be operationally deployed and morale is extremely high.

[Mr Ellwood]

I am pleased to hear that, and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the work he does in his constituency—I have joined him there and am aware of those important contributions. I also speak to the families federations, who ensure that my feet are kept on the ground and that I understand the reality of the challenges. Youngsters joining today expect different standards from those that he and I experienced when we joined—they want single-living accommodation and wireless internet access, for example. They want a different set of standards from those that we appreciated in our time. My hon. Friend makes a very valuable point.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for what he has said. We are fortunate to have a Minister who has a heart for his job, understands the job and responds to the issues that Members across the House bring to his attention; he does that extremely well. He mentioned accommodation. I gently remind him of the issue of recruitment and the fact that Northern Ireland was able to recruit a greater percentage than the rest of the United Kingdom, which may be an opportunity. Some of the soldiers joining up tell me that they would like the opportunity to train overseas. I want to ensure that that opportunity will be in the strategy, as well as help for the families.

[Mr Ellwood]

I pay tribute to those who serve and step forward in Northern Ireland. The hon. Gentleman knows that I have visited his neck of the woods a number of times, and I am very grateful for what they offer. He touches on our important commitment to improve accommodation. We have a £4 billion process of upgrade. That requires tough decisions to relinquish some of the armed forces’ assets that we have accumulated over the last couple of hundred years, but it also means that we can regroup and consolidate into super-garrisons, which are fit for purpose and, I hope, will attract the next generation to serve their country.

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Stephen Metcalfe]

rose—

[Mr Ellwood]

I am pleased that we are holding this debate in the Chamber, because I have never had such interest when we discuss these annual updates of support for the armed forces up in Committee Room 14.

[Kevin Foster]

I thank the Minister for giving way, and it is welcome that we are talking about the armed forces on the Floor of the House. We have heard in some remarks a focus on how we can encourage people to sign up, but does he agree that it is more about how we retain people, particularly when they get to the stage in their career when they have a family and perhaps need property beyond the barracks accommodation that they were happy with when they signed up?

[Mr Ellwood]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. The chances are that when someone joins the armed forces, they are single and have little responsibility. As they move ahead in life, they are likely to develop a family and so forth, and therefore their accommodation requirements will change. The armed forces must accept and be ready for that. That is the single issue that the families federations state as the reason for people choosing to leave, and it needs addressing; there is no doubt about it.

[Stephen Metcalfe]

Seeing as we are discussing this important issue on the Floor of the House, it might be worth speaking to a wider audience and reminding people that when they join the armed forces as a young person, the training they receive is often through the formal provision of an apprenticeship. Our military services are one of the biggest providers of apprenticeships in the country, and people leave the services with full and proper qualifications.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Ellwood]

I am looking around the Chamber, and I see that there is life after the armed forces, with so many characters who have served and ended up here. That is fantastic. On a more serious note, the skillset that people develop in the armed forces arguably is second to none, compared with other areas of life. Grit, tenacity, determination, leadership skills, commitment and team-working are all transferrable skills, and it is so important to recognise that. If we have a challenge, it is the fact that the cohort of people who are familiar with what the armed forces have to offer is getting smaller, because the armed forces do not have the same direct exposure. Our challenge is to ensure that every HR director, personnel officer and person charged with recruitment in a business is aware of what our brilliant armed forces can offer.

It is worth spelling out the wider aspects of what our armed forces do, because we are here to give consent to their continued existence.

[Sir Oliver Heald]

My right hon. Friend is being very generous in giving way. Does he agree that the real significance of the order is that it continues the system of command and of justice that applies through command in the armed forces? It is therefore crucial that we renew for another year, so that the system of command and discipline can continue.

[Mr Ellwood]

I do agree, and that goes to the heart of what we are debating. It is important that the disciplinary aspects of the armed forces continue; because they change, we are obliged to come back to the House and re-confirm them.

It is important to recognise that our armed forces do much more than what we see day to day in the newspapers. As Operation Telic and Operation Herrick are removed from the frontlines, and we see less about this on the front pages and hear less and less about these issues, we should recognise what amazing work our armed forces do in keeping UK citizens safe in this country and, indeed, abroad. We play a leading role in NATO, providing collective assurance and deterrence in the posture that we build. Along with our international partners, we are also conducting and targeting counter-terrorism activity.

We support multinational peacekeeping operations and build stability overseas, which ensures the freedom of navigation and the UK’s access to global resources. We safeguard strategic choke points and protect essential lines of communication, not least across our oceans. We also keep the skies safe—not just in the UK, but in Europe and beyond. Newer to the portfolio, we are ensuring we monitor movements in outer space. The House will be aware of what we do to tackle piracy on the seas and high seas, and to reduce poaching in Africa—we have done much to tackle the illegal wildlife trade in Africa—and we of course assist in delivering overseas humanitarian aid relief during emergencies and disasters.

All that involves a wide variety of skillsets, which our armed forces are expected to understand and execute. It is important that we recognise that these are not things we see every day in the newspapers, but they are things that this House expects them to do when a crisis happens. It is to them that we turn when diplomacy fails and when this country faces challenges.

[Leo Docherty]

My right hon. Friend is being extremely generous with his time. In describing the expansive nature of our military presence globally, does he agree with me that the new naval facility in Bahrain, and the activities and patrolling carried out by the Royal Navy there, are an important demonstration that we are committed to the security of the Gulf and to providing reassurance about the free passage of trade around the peninsula?

[Mr Ellwood]

My hon. Friend cites an acute example of exactly what we are doing. HMS Jufair is a fantastic illustration of our having permanent exposure, with a permanent facility, and of our working not just with the Bahrainis, but with others in the middle east. We set standards and values and share tactics and operational capabilities, and we improve governance, the rule of law and so forth in doing so. I pay tribute to those who have made that facility work. If memory serves, I actually visited the facility with my hon. Friend in the recent past.

[Leo Docherty]

I declare an interest in that we both visited that facility, with several other parliamentary colleagues, on a very useful visit last year.

[Mr Ellwood]

We have touched on the long-established reputation of our armed forces in defending not just our shores, but our values. At this juncture, I would comment on how the world is changing rapidly. It is getting more dangerous and it is getting more complex. The threats are more diverse than ever before. I would argue that if the instability we are seeing is unchecked, it will become the norm. These are threats not just from a man-made perspective—extremism and resurgent nations, as well as cyber-security—but from climate change. We are reaching or testing the limits of what our fragile planet can actually do, and if we do not act soon, there will be huge consequences with migration, the movement of people and so forth, as well as the stockpiling of food and a threat even to our ability to grow the crops we actually need.

The world is changing fast and it requires a collective effort if we are to meet some of these challenges. Britain has been a nation that again and again steps forward to lead the way—not always to do the heavy lifting, but certainly to show leadership. I certainly believe that, as I say, this is an important juncture at which to regroup and look at the rules—established mostly through Bretton Woods, after the second world war—that are now out of date. They need to be reviewed to recognise the new world that we actually face, before this becomes the norm and we are unable to change and set the standards for the next number of years.

The rate of change and level of uncertainty are outpacing governance and unity. The old rules need to be updated, and, because of human empowerment, it is easier for individuals to have greater access to means of causing harm, through computers and so forth.

[Stephen Metcalfe]

My right hon. Friend is painting a picture of the complexity and severity of the challenges we face. That threat has changed over the years, to the point at which the level of skill required across a broad range of disciplines is growing. I was fortunate enough to be the envoy for the Year of Engineering last year and saw how our armed services use engineers both on the ground and behind the scenes to tackle some of those threats, particularly on cyber-security. Will he therefore join me in promoting engineering within the armed services as a way of meeting and tackling the challenges that he is talking about?

[Mr Ellwood]

I fully concur. It was a pleasure to participate in the Year of engineering last year. It is important that we encourage STEM subjects—science, technology, engineering and maths—and we are doing that, as was mentioned earlier, through our apprenticeship schemes. The skillsets that even the basic infanteer requires from a technology perspective are enormous, and so different from when I served. It is absolutely important, through schooling, apprenticeships and all aspects of our armed forces, that we encourage these things.

I was talking about the fact that the tried and tested diplomatic instruments and conventions that we have relied on are no longer fit for purpose and about the importance of the fact that we are now threatened with greater human empowerment through technology.

It used to be said that atomic weapons were the biggest threat we faced. I was moved by a book written by David Sanger, a New York journalist and a specialist in cyber-warfare. He now says that cyber-warfare has taken over as the biggest threat that we face, because attacks can be conducted state on state and there are no repercussions and no rules. There is no Geneva convention to say, for example, that elections or hospitals are out of bounds for a cyber-security attack. There are no repercussions or recognition above board of what the penalty or punishment is, or even of what rules a cyber-security attack breaks.

This is more dangerous because, unlike with nuclear weapons, it is not just states that use such attacks—any individual can. That shows the requirements and the pressures of what our armed forces are up against in today’s changing world, with accelerating technological advancement, the increasing environment of stress that I mentioned and, of course, the change in population growths and habitats.

[Leo Docherty]

My right hon. Friend is painting an interesting picture of our defence requirement. When it comes to cyber-security, both in terms of defence and offence, is he confident and reassured that cyber-capability will be front and centre in the modernising defence programme as it moves from adoption to reality?

[Mr Ellwood]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. As we discuss upgrading and recommitting the existence of our armed forces, it has traditionally been around those conventional capabilities of Army, Air Force and Navy, and now it must expand to this fourth dimension, which includes cyber and space. These are the volatile and vulnerable areas that we absolutely need to invest more in, and I am pleased to say that that is exactly what is happening.

[Nigel Huddleston (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend is articulating a rather alarming picture of the changing nature of the challenges. He has mentioned the resources required. Does he agree that although we are committed to paying 2% of our GDP on defence to make sure that these international threats are adequately attacked, other countries also need to make similar commitments?

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[Mr Ellwood]

I am on the record as saying that we need to spend more than 2%, as that is a very arbitrary target. Ultimately, the important thing is whether people turn up for the fight as well. If we take Operation Ellamy, which was in Libya, as an example, many NATO countries did not bother turning up even though they were NATO signatories. I appreciate the 2% and, yes, we want countries to pay, but ultimately they need to be ready to fight as well.

[Toby Perkins]

rose—

[Mr Ellwood]

I will try to make some progress if I may, after this last intervention.

[Toby Perkins]

I am very grateful to the Minister for allowing me to intervene again. I just want to take him back to the comments he was making a moment ago about cyber-warfare and hybrid warfare. Does he consider cyber-warfare to be warfare? If so, who are we at war with?

[Mr Ellwood]

The hon. Gentleman makes my point for me. There are no accepted rules, and post Brexit Britain and the rest of world collectively need to recognise that. From a NATO perspective, article 5 does not apply. If there are no rules, how can we punish anybody? How can we identify who is responsible for what? This is a whole world that we need to address very soon indeed.

That point allows me to move on to a point about having an honest conversation with the public—this touches on the 2% issue. The general public have a huge admiration for our armed forces, who are the most professional in the world. However, I would also say that there is a collective naivety about what we can actually do. We are facing some very real threats that we need to wake up to.

I do not mean to digress too much, but because this place made so much noise about potholes, which was because local government made so much noise about potholes, the Chancellor then provided the money to address the problem of potholes. We are not making enough noise about our capabilities and where we are versus the threats we actually face.

Our main battle tank is 20 years old. It has not been replaced in that period. Meanwhile, France and Russia have upgraded their tanks two or three times over that period. We have some fantastic kit coming on board, but there are other areas where we need investment. We need to tell the public that if they want Britain to be able to step forward when it is required, we need to pay for that. That is the conversation we need to have, as well as talking about the threats we have touched on and have articulated quite adequately today. As I say, ever fewer nations are willing to step forward.

[Toby Perkins]

rose—

[Mr Ellwood]

I will not give way. I need to make progress because I am getting that look from Madam Deputy Speaker—other hon. Members want to participate as well.

It is important to recognise where we are and to have a more real debate with the public. There is a Russian proverb that says that it is better to be slapped in the face by the truth than kissed with a lie. Without being too provocative, I believe that we are trying to sell a capability of the armed forces, which we are very, very proud of, but that the nation is in denial about the real threats appearing over the horizon. It is our duty as the Executive, as the Government and as parliamentarians to express that to a nation that, if it fully understood the picture, would be more willing to say, “Yes, let’s spend more money.” I hope that message will come through in the spending review.

I turn to the Armed Forces Act (Continuation) Order 2019. We seek the consent of the House through the annual consideration of the legislation governing the armed forces: the Armed Forces Act 2006. The draft order we are considering this afternoon is to continue in force the 2006 Act for a further year, until 11 May 2020. This reflects the constitutional requirement under the Bill of Rights that a standing Army, and by extension now the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force, may not be maintained without the consent of Parliament.

I am sure the House will be familiar with the fact that the legislation that provides for the armed forces to exist as disciplined bodies is renewed by Parliament every single year. That is what we are doing here today. The requirement for annual renewal can be traced back to the Bill of Rights 1688. Time prohibits me, Madam Deputy Speaker, from going into detail on that, but I am happy to write to hon. Members if they would like further information on that front.

Every five years, renewal is by an Act of Parliament. The most recent was in 2016 and the next will be in 2021. Between each five-yearly Act, annual renewal is by Order in Council. The draft order that we are considering today is such an order. The Armed Forces Act 2016 provides for the continuation in force of the Armed Forces Act 2006 until the end of 11 May 2017 and for further renewal thereafter by Order in Council for up to a year at a time, but not beyond 2021. If the Armed Forces Act 2006 is not renewed by this Order in Council before the end of 11 May 2019, it will automatically expire. If the 2006 Act expires, the legislation that governs the armed forces and the provisions necessary for their maintenance as disciplined bodies will cease to exist. Discipline is essential. It maintains the order necessary for the armed forces to accomplish their mission to serve our country, whether at home or abroad.

The Act contains nearly all the provisions for the existence of a system of command, discipline and justice for the armed forces. It creates offences and provides for the investigation of alleged offences, the arrest, the holding in custody and the charging of individuals accused of committing an offence, and for them to be dealt with summarily by their commanding officer or tried in a court martial. Offences under the 2006 Act include any criminal offence under the law of England and Wales and those that are peculiar to service, such as misconduct towards a superior officer and disobedience to lawful commands. We should not forget that the Act applies to members of the armed forces at all times, wherever they are serving in the world.

If the Act were to expire, the duty of members of the armed forces to obey lawful commands, and the powers and procedures under which this duty is enforced, would no longer have effect. Commanding officers and the court martial would have no powers of punishment for failure to obey a lawful command or other disciplinary or criminal misconduct. Members of the armed forces would still owe allegiance to Her Majesty, but Parliament would have removed the power of enforcement. Service personnel do not have contracts of employment and so have no duties as employees. Their obligation is essentially a duty to obey lawful commands. The Act also provides for other important matters for the armed forces, such as their enlistment, pay and redress of complaints.

In conclusion, the continuation of the 2006 Act is essential for the maintenance of discipline. Discipline, in every sense, is fundamental to the existence of our armed forces and indeed, to their successes, whether at home in supporting emergency services and local communities and protecting our fishing fleet and our shores; playing their role in counter-terrorism or in combating people and drug smuggling; distributing vital humanitarian aid; saving endangered species; or defeating Daesh in Iraq and Syria.

We owe the brave men and women of our armed forces a sound legal basis for them to continue to afford us their vital protection. I hope that hon. Members will support the draft continuation order.

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[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

I rise to support the motion, as my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) did. While this is a motion that many might have expected was limited in scope and was likely to be passed without much comment, the Minister, of whom I am a big admirer in the job he does, has broadened its scope and other Members have taken him up on the challenge he posed. He made a remarkable speech; I cannot think of many times where a Minister has stood at the Dispatch Box and been so implicitly critical of the Government they speak on behalf of. I entirely support his call for greater investment in our armed forces and will expand on some of the arguments he made about our investment in equipment.

[Mr Ellwood]

I would not want the hon. Gentleman to mislead the House and say I was somehow not supportive of the Government. I am absolutely, of course, supportive of the Government—a loyal Minister. I am simply encouraging the advancement of policy; I think that is how I would delicately put it.

[Toby Perkins]

People will read the right hon. Gentleman’s speech and make up their own minds on whether he was urging the Government to take action in a different direction, but if he wants the advancement of policy, he is in exactly the right place to do that as a Defence Minister. He was right to say that we absolutely recognise the professionalism of those who serve and to point to the admiration he has—and I have, and Members right across the House have—for people who dedicate their lives to our armed forces, but we must also ask ourselves some serious questions about the way in which we support them, and I will come to those in a moment.

If I was to have an area of disagreement with the Minister, it would be on his challenge to the public about the fact that we need to have an honest conversation with them. It does not seem to me that it is the public who are preventing the Government from spending more on our armed forces or meeting greater than the 2% spending commitment. We had a debate here about having greater spending on our armed forces and there was widespread agreement across the House that that should happen. I have never had a member of the public say to me in my surgeries or when I am out door knocking on a Saturday that they disagree with greater spending on the armed forces. I do not think that we need to convince the public of the need to spend more; in fact, it is the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister who need to be persuaded to spend more money on our armed forces.

The Minister spoke about his commitment to the armed forces community and his disappointment that there was such low morale on pay and pensions. He introduced accommodation as another real bone of contention, and I support him entirely on tackling those issues. He and the hon. Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster) both said that we should not regard a job in the armed forces as being similar to any other job, and I agree with them. Of course there is a level of commitment required from members of the armed forces that is not present in other jobs, but that does not let the Government off the hook when it comes to pay and pensions and to treating people who serve with the respect that they have the right to expect. When it comes to saying to the loved ones of members of the armed forces that we value their support, pay and pensions and accommodation are among the ways in which we can show that we recognise their commitment. I absolutely recognise that working in the armed forces is not the same as any other job, but that does not let the Government off the hook when it comes to ensuring that the pay for members of our armed forces keeps pace with inflation and that they are no worse off at the end of the year than they were at the start of it. That is a very basic commitment.

Another very basic commitment is that we make the necessary investment in equipment, in training, in deployments and in the commitment that we expect of members of the armed forces. We need to pose some serious questions to the Government about those things as well. The Minister said that we had the most professional armed forces in the world, but it is important that we should not be complacent. As he mentioned, the battle tank is 20 years old. As a member of the armed forces parliamentary scheme, I have had the privilege of speaking to members of the armed forces, and they absolutely want me to hold the Government to account over investment in equipment. They share many of the reservations that he has. They also share reservations about the level of experience of some of the people in our armed forces. Huge numbers are leaving, many of whom had been through engagements in Afghanistan and Iraq and were absolutely match fit. The people who are now in those roles, while well trained, are much less experienced than the people who would have been in those arenas eight or nine years ago. I absolutely express our admiration for the people in our armed forces, but we must never be complacent about what we actually have on the ground.

I had the pleasure of going over to Kenya as part of the armed forces parliamentary scheme to visit the British Army training unit Kenya—BATUK—but I know that many training courses have been cancelled over the past year or so and that that facility is being used a lot less than it was previously. That investment in the training of members of our armed forces to ensure that they are used to the different theatres they might face is incredibly important.

My hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) mentioned the Tory manifesto pledge for the Army to be 82,000 strong. Will the Minister give us absolute clarity on whether the Government still consider themselves bound to that commitment, or whether, as it was not featured so explicitly in the 2017 manifesto, it is now more of an aspiration than a commitment? Either way, it is a commitment that is not being met. I entirely support the motion, but I also share many of the concerns that have been raised today. I absolutely pledge my support to the Minister in his campaign to persuade the Treasury to give our armed forces the support that they need and deserve.

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[Mr Ellwood]

This has been a far more thorough and wide-ranging debate than I imagined it would be, and I welcome that. I hope that in future years, when we come to update the House on the continuation of the armed forces, we can have the debate in the main Chamber.

I hear what the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) says about recruitment and Capita—she raised the point in Defence questions, too. The Minister for the Armed Forces is better able to respond, so I will ask him to write to her with more details. The future accommodation model is about choice, and I have touched on that.

The hon. Lady also mentioned the Defence Safety Authority and its report, which I take very seriously. I stress to the House that there have been fewer fire issues than in previous years, but the issue is about management, and every effort is being made to make sure we honour the report’s recommendations. Again, I will write to her with more details on how that will be achieved.

My good and hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Anne-Marie Trevelyan) made a wide-ranging speech. She underlined the importance of the bond between US marines and the Royal Marines and their work to create a formidable relationship, which has developed over the years. She also praised the Secretary of State for jumping into the Norwegian sea—he is doing a fantastic job. She also touched on the Kessler effect, and a spiral of junk satellites bumping into each other is a huge concern. It would take us back to the 1950s, and we are working on it.

[Bob Stewart]

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Ellwood]

I am afraid that I do not have time to take interventions.

The hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Martin Docherty-Hughes) mentioned peacekeeping, and anyone in uniform will recognise its importance. It is not so much about defeating the enemy as enabling the local population, and nowhere is that more pertinent right now than in Iraq and Syria. Murders are happening every day, and ISIL is still active. ISIL is not in our headlines, but that is not to say it has dispersed. We need to make sure that we help with stabilisation, peacekeeping and rebuilding those nations in whatever way we can, obviously with their agreement.

The hon. Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) spoke about being honest in our conversation with the public. I make it clear that France is about to overtake us in defence spending. We have to make the case to the nation, because we queue up with every other Department in asking for more funds from the Treasury. If we take the nation with us in calling for it, we are more likely to get where we want to go.

I have mentioned tanks, but we had 30 RAF squadrons in Operation Ellamy, and we are now down to seven. We cannot build two new aircraft carriers without extra money and not have an impact on the rest of the surface fleet. These are important issues, which is why the Defence Secretary and Defence Ministers are all making a potent case through the defence modernisation programme, which my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Leo Docherty) mentioned, to say that we need to upgrade the defence budget. I am pleased with my hon. Friend’s contribution; he touched on the importance of cyber. If we think the last 10 years have seen a change in our world, wait for the next 10 years. Artificial intelligence, 5G and the internet of things will change our world fundamentally, and I am not quite sure whether we are ready.

My hon. Friend the Member for Braintree (James Cleverly) speaks with such experience. He talks about our offer—what is our offer to our armed forces?—and that is so important for us to recognise and understand. More than 20 operations are taking place around the world, and Operation Toral, the continuation in Afghanistan, is just one of them. They do not make the headlines, so they are not the recruitment sergeant that Iraq and Afghanistan have been. Because of the greater employment rate, it is a testing environment to let people recognise how the armed forces can be a fantastic career. He also touched on flexible working, which is important, and how roles have been opened up to women right across the piece.

Following this full debate, I hope the House will support the draft order and recognise its contribution to upholding the constitutional position that the armed forces may not be maintained without the consent of Parliament.

My final words are to anyone thinking of signing up. I could not encourage you more. You will learn things about yourself that you did not know, you will do things that you never thought possible, and you will visit places that you never thought you would be able to visit. When you finally march off that parade square, after you sign up, you will not only be serving your country but you will be making your mum and dad so proud of you.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the draft Armed Forces Act (Continuation) Order 2019, which was laid before this House on 24 January, be approved.