National Minimum Wage

Vince Cable Excerpts

Wednesday 15th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)]

I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from “House” to the end of the Question and add:

“notes that since 2010, the Government has increased the National Minimum Wage each year, despite the worst recession in living memory, to protect the income of the low paid and increase their wages relative to average earnings, and is cutting taxes for the low paid to boost take home pay by £705 a year, taking 2.7 million out of income tax altogether; welcomes increased employment under this Government, which is at its highest ever level; notes that the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills has asked the Low Pay Commission for an assessment of how it might achieve a higher National Minimum Wage in the future without damaging employment; further notes that the Government has maintained a central enforcement body that covers all areas of the UK and ensures a consistent approach and high quality service; and further notes that the Government is quadrupling fines for employers in breach of paying the National Minimum Wage and has already made it easier to name and shame employers who flout the rules.”.

I am delighted to have the opportunity to move the Government amendment. Before I get down to the detailed substance of the motion, I want to say that this debate gives us the opportunity to discuss in more detail the regulations that, following my announcement before Christmas, I have laid today to increase penalties for non-compliance with the minimum wage by a factor of four. I also want to reinforce my earlier commitment that we will not merely do that but will proceed to introduce primary legislation to enable fines to be applied per worker, rather than per company, which will make them a great deal more forceful.

[Mr Donohoe]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Vince Cable]

I will take an intervention later.

The shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), misadvised one of her Back Benchers, the hon. Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck), who quite rightly intervened, in relation to care workers, about there being no payment between jobs for social workers carrying out domiciliary care. That is actually an abuse of the minimum wage legislation. It has now been recognised as an abuse, and colleagues in the Department of Health, as well as my Department and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, are making efforts to ensure that the regulations are properly enforced.

[Mr Donohoe]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Vince Cable]

Let me carry on for a few minutes. The hon. Gentleman knows that I always take interventions. Let me just build an argument and then I will allow him to respond.

Let me start with the very basics. It is a little difficult to do so in the face of the relentless tribalism that we have just heard, but I would say at the outset that the introduction of the national minimum wage was a real achievement of the previous Government. There were not many achievements, but two will stand the test of time: the establishment of the independent Bank of England and the establishment of the national minimum wage. [Interruption.] Indeed, there were others, but those were the two main ones in the economic field.

Having said that, I attempted to be constructive about the motion, but one blindingly obvious point is that the centrepiece of the national minimum wage legislation—the establishment of a non-partisan, non-political Low Pay Commission—did not even merit a mention. The shadow Secretary of State referred to it only in response to an intervention. That is rather important, because it suggests one of two things. The first possibility is that Labour Members do not understand how their own system works. Indeed, I heard a Labour Member cry out earlier, “Why don’t you make it increase the minimum wage?”, so there are clearly people who do not understand the mechanism. The second possibility is that Labour Members do not respect the basis of the system, which is independent advice from a non-partisan body. That advice has been followed consistently by successive Secretaries of State, including my Labour predecessors. That is the strength of the system and that is why there is political consensus behind it.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Vince Cable]

I will just deal with the politics of this matter before I take interventions.

The hon. Member for Leeds West made a great deal of the fact that, as she put it, the Conservatives opposed the national minimum wage and many Liberal Democrats opposed it. She speaks with all the self-confidence of somebody who was not here at the time.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

You were and you didn’t vote.

[Vince Cable]

I did not particularly wish to raise this, but I am being asked personally to explain why I did not vote. It had a lot to do with the fact that my late wife was terminally ill at the time and I was in the Royal Marsden hospital. That is why my voting record at the time was poor on that and other issues.

As it happens, my party supported the national minimum wage; nobody opposed it. I became the party’s spokesman shortly after the vote and I made it absolutely clear throughout that Parliament that we supported the principle of the national minimum wage. There was never any question about that.

Perfectly legitimate issues were raised about why there was no regional variation. There is a proper debate to be had about whether there should be a regional or a national minimum wage. As it happens, I endorsed the principle of the national minimum wage. However, there is a perfectly respectable argument for regional variation. As I understand it, the Labour party now promotes the living wage, at the heart of which is the idea that there should be regional differentials, with people in London being paid more and people in the west country or the north of England being paid relatively less. There is an argument for that. Why criticise people who have put forward that idea in good faith?

As for the Conservatives, although I do not always speak in their defence, I think that they should get credit for accepting that there is a good system that works and for deciding to support it. That is creditable. Although I and my party have supported the national minimum wage, there is a perfectly respectable intellectual and moral argument for not having a minimum wage. Countries that do not have a minimum wage include Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark and Austria. Those countries are all in the social democratic tradition, but have felt that it is too problematic. Germany, which has had either social democratic or national unity Governments for most of the post-war period, has adopted a national minimum wage only in the last few weeks. In those countries, where there are civilised values and a sense of solidarity, the costs and benefits of the minimum wage have been debated properly. Why should we criticise people in this country who wanted to have such a debate, but who have now come to a consensus that it is a good system and that we should make it work?

[Seema Malhotra]

Is the Secretary of State saying that Government Members and Conservative Members in particular support the national minimum wage for all businesses in all circumstances?

[Vince Cable]

Yes, it is now the law. Of course we support enforcement of the law. I do not understand the question.

[Mr Donohoe]

Will the Secretary of State tell us why he came to the conclusion that the fine should go from £5,000 to £20,000, rather than the £50,000 that would deter all those gangsters out there who are not paying the minimum wage?

[Vince Cable]

The rise to £20,000 is a fourfold increase. However, the big difference is in applying that fine per worker rather than per company. That is a considerable escalation of the penalties. I hope that we will have the support of Opposition Members in voting that through.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

Is not the difference between this country and the countries cited by the right hon. Gentleman that they still have vibrant trade union rights and are not condemned annually by the International Labour Organisation, as this country is, for undermining trade union rights?

[Vince Cable]

Those countries have had a variety of Governments, both left-wing and right-wing. I was simply making the point that it is possible to have a perfectly viable system without a national minimum wage. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that in practice what is needed is either a strong system of trade union rights or a national minimum wage. We have now all accepted that the national minimum wage is the best system. I think all the minority parties accept that, too.

[Mr Hanson]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way. Does he accept that enforcement, as well as the fine, is important? Currently, the national minimum wage is enforced only by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. Will he give serious consideration to supporting giving local councils the power, as they now have on trading standards, to enforce the minimum wage locally?

[Vince Cable]

As the right hon. Gentleman says, the primary authority is HMRC, but it works with other agencies to enforce the national minimum wage. There are some important cases where HMRC has worked with local authorities—I think with Blackpool council and others—to enforce it in areas where we have sensed there is a systematic weakness.

[Jim Sheridan]

I thank the Secretary of State for giving way. The national minimum wage is exactly what it says on the tin: a minimum wage. Does he accept the overwhelming evidence that union-organised work forces are paid more and have better conditions than non-union-organised workplaces?

[Vince Cable]

In general, that is the case. However, my experience, from talking regularly to trade unions and employers, is that most of our trade unions, certainly in the private sector, are extremely pragmatic and flexible on wages—indeed, that is one of the reasons why we have had relatively low unemployment. They deserve some credit for that.

[Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab)]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is being very generous. At whatever level the fines are set, will he look at the possibility of reinvesting the money they raise directly into enforcement, so that the enforcement keeps on going to the point where, hopefully, we do not have to fine anybody, because nobody is breaching the rules?

[Vince Cable]

In line with the commitment to enforcement, I think we have produced more resources for that. My hon. Friend the Economic Secretary to the Treasury, who will be summating, may want to say a little more about that, but we recognise that the enforcement authorities need resources to do their job.

[Charlie Elphicke]

I thank my right hon. Friend for giving way. As a Conservative Member of Parliament representing a constituency with a lot of social deprivation, I support the national minimum wage and the work of the Low Pay Commission, which is really important. In response to my intervention, the shadow Secretary of State dismissed the Low Pay Commission and talked about restoring the value of the minimum wage. Does my right hon. Friend know what exactly restoring the value of the minimum wage means and how much that would cost?

[Vince Cable]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s support and I know that it is shared among his colleagues. This is a historical issue: it has now been laid to rest. I will talk a little more about the mandate of the Low Pay Commission and the fact that successive Secretaries of State, including me, have respected its judgment, which is non-political, non-partisan and represents both the union and employer standpoint.

Let me talk about the wider economic consequences. The shadow Secretary of State talked with a real sense of righteous indignation about things that are, frankly, blindingly obvious. We have had a massive financial crisis, the biggest in our history—certainly in modern times. As a result, the country is poorer. That is a matter of fact. It is not a polemical point: the country is poorer, and that has been translated into lower earnings. That is simple economic reality and nobody is disputing that.

In the wake of the economic crisis in 2008-09, we now know that British GDP fell by 7.5%. That was more than after the great crash in 1929 and worse than in any other western country. I am not going into the business of who did what when; I am just recording a matter of fact. Recession inevitably followed the financial disaster and real earnings have been affected. The shadow Secretary of State is right on simple matters of fact: real earnings fell by 7% and the minimum wage fell by 5%. That is a matter of fact. What I find so very difficult to understand is that the Opposition Front Benchers—it is not just her; her colleagues are the same—have seen the greatest economic disaster in modern economic history and apparently not noticed it, and they have not taken any account of the inevitable economic consequences. What matters is that the Government of the day seek to mitigate those effects.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

Does the Secretary of State accept that while he has been in office, the real-terms value of the adult national minimum wage has declined by 50p an hour since May 2010? It is his responsibility to review the remit of the Low Pay Commission. Why is he acting so slowly on this, given that 28% of part-time workers in his constituency are earning less than the living wage? Does that not show the failure he is presiding over on poverty pay across the whole country?

[Vince Cable]

I do not know about the numbers, but certainly the minimum wage, in real terms, has declined by 5%, as a result of my predecessor on two occasions and me on three occasions following the advice of the Low Pay Commission.

[Alex Cunningham]

The RBS bankers and others in the City who led us into this terrible economic situation do a lot better than the national minimum wage, so does the Secretary of State think they should get bonuses of more than 100% of their salaries?

[Vince Cable]

I think hon. Members have had a chance to debate that already. I am a great advocate of the new model developed by Handelsbanken of relationship banking and no bonuses—that is what we ought to have—but I suspect that even their branch managers are paid above the minimum wage.

[Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend share the incredulity of Government Members that for all the talk of bankers not having been affected, not one person has condemned the fact that trade union leaders have been getting double-digit pay rises in the same period?

[Vince Cable]

I suspect that that is also true, but I am trying to get away from the tribal debate that the shadow Secretary of State was so keen to launch.

To return to the thread of the argument, we have had a major shock, and it has reduced real earnings and the real minimum wage. I fully acknowledge that; it is a matter of fact. The question is: what is being done to mitigate the effects? Two major changes have taken place. First, the Government have recognised that earnings are not the same as take-home pay and disposable income, and we have therefore concentrated our tax policy on lifting low earners out of tax. As a result, 2.7 million low earners now pay no income tax. Those working 28 hours a week on the minimum wage pay no income tax, while those on 35 hours pay only one third of the income tax they paid at the beginning of this Government. We have therefore considerably reduced the impact of the squeeze on real incomes by using tax policy.

The second highly relevant issue is the level of unemployment. After the great crash in 1929, unemployment rose to 20%. In the recent financial crisis, countries less affected than the UK have had considerably higher unemployment—I am talking about France and Sweden, among others. We reached a peak of 8.5%; it has now gone down to 7% and is falling. We have record numbers of people in work, while the number of jobs has increased by 1.3 million, in the wake of this enormous economic crisis. Now, why has that happened? It has happened because millions of individual workers, realising that there is a choice to be made between jobs and pay, have wisely decided that it is much more important to keep the employment.

The Low Pay Commission, speaking for the country as a whole, rather than for individuals, has reinforced that assessment. In its 2012 report, it explained its analysis in the following terms—let us remember this is not the Government, but an independent commission representing unions, employers and independent assessors. It said its aim was a minimum wage that helped

“as many low-paid workers as possible without any significant adverse impact on employment or the economy.”

That became the mandate—the remit—that I have used, and it is virtually identical to the remit used by my Labour predecessor. I simply ask Labour Members what they object to in that remit. Do they seriously think that the Low Pay Commission and the Secretary of State should ignore the state of the economy or the level of employment? What do they think is fundamentally wrong with the remit?

[Gavin Shuker]

From the tone of the Secretary of State’s remarks, it is clear that, following the banking crisis of 2008, this is a deep issue that confronts us as a nation. He is right in his analysis, and many workers have chosen not to push for pay rises in the light of that situation. The challenge facing us, however, is surely one that requires a political response. I disagree slightly with his characterisation of this Government’s policy. What it has resulted in has been clearly demonstrated in 41 of the last 42 months, with people being able to buy less with what they are being paid. If he is saying there will be no change, then Opposition Members will continue to call out for that change.

[Vince Cable]

I keep hearing the call from Opposition Members for a political intervention. Are the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues saying that this system—a very good system that his Government established, based on the Low Pay Commission analysis—should be torn up and a political settlement imposed? Is he suggesting that the remit, which takes account of the impact of the minimum wage on employment, should be disregarded? Is that the argument?

[Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)]

Let me give the Secretary of State an example. The Low Pay Commission recommended against amending section 31(1)(b) of the minimum wage regulations, which allowed employers to pay hospitality workers out of their tips. The last Government took the courageous step of changing that provision and preventing that from happening. That is a good example of where politics looks to the good of the individual and does not play to what I believe are the prejudices and fears of people in the Low Pay Commission. Is it not also true that if the minimum wage were raised—I have seen many cases of this—the bill for tax credits would go down and the Government would probably be better off in terms of public sector expenditure?

[Vince Cable]

On the last point, the hon. Gentleman may well be right, although I have seen an analysis suggesting that, because of the effect on corporate taxation, which offsets those gains, he is not. However, on the more substantive point about politicians intervening to override the Low Pay Commission, I believe that we should not be dogmatic about it. In the overriding majority of cases, it behoves the Secretary of State to listen carefully to the Low Pay Commission and it would be unusual to override it. He cites one case, and I have actually overridden the Low Pay Commission—on the apprenticeship wage, which I thought was excessively low, giving the wrong signal to young people and others who wanted to do apprenticeships. I made a decision on that specific issue to intervene and disregard the advice of the Low Pay Commission. If that became a habit, however, and if its advice were overridden on a major issue of pay policy, the minimum wage structure would crumble from being politicised in that way.

[Mr Donohoe]

To ask a simple question, what is the minimum wage for apprenticeships?

[Vince Cable]

I think it is £2.68, and it was going to be frozen at £2.65. [Interruption.] It is a very small increase, but there was an issue of principle involved, which is why I intervened to change it.

Let me proceed on the issue of the mandate. The Low Pay Commission has consistently regarded jobs as an important objective of policy—rightly, and we must respect that judgment because it is based on serious analysis. Let me quote a good study carried out by the Resolution Foundation, and I believe the National Institute of Economic and Social Research was involved, too. It analysed the effects of a general increase to the living wage level, which Labour Members would like to see happen.

The analysis suggests that if other things were equal and if all low pay were increased to the level of the living wage, there would be a net loss of 160,000 jobs. Worse than that, there would be a loss of 300,000 jobs among the unskilled and among young workers, because massive substitution would take place. That does not mean that the living wage is a bad idea as a voluntary principle, but it does spell out very brutally what would happen if Governments ignored the Low Pay Commission and took a cavalier view of the impact of the minimum wage on jobs.

[Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)]

Is that not precisely the argument that was used by those who opposed the introduction of the national minimum wage in the first place? Is this not just a repetition of that flawed argument?

--- Later in debate ---

[Vince Cable]

I must tell the hon. Gentleman that it is an argument to which the trade unions on the Low Pay Commission fully subscribe. This is the first time that I have heard Members seriously question the competence of the Low Pay Commission and challenge the whole principle of its remit. I am appalled and alarmed that they should want to tear up and politicise a basically good system which has worked well under the last Government and under this one, in different circumstances. That really is very dangerous.

[Alec Shelbrooke]

What I find strange—I am sure that my right hon. Friend agrees with me—is that the subject of the living wage keeps popping up on the Opposition Benches. Today’s debate is about the minimum wage, and the Labour motion does not call for the Low Pay Commission even to consider the issue of the living wage.

[Vince Cable]

Indeed. Admittedly the issue of the living wage is now part of the public debate, and of course I believe that if employers are profitable they should adopt it—particularly if they are taking advantage of their work forces—but we must be clear about the fact that making the living wage mandatory, either directly or indirectly, would have enormous implications for jobs.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Vince Cable]

I will give way once more.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

The fact is that millions of workers are now enjoying the living wage because of the actions of local authorities—the vast majority of them Labour-controlled—and progressive employers. Rather than just saying that the living wage is a good idea, should not the Government encourage employers to adopt the living wage through specific measures, such as those suggested by Labour in the motion and in our policies generally?

[Vince Cable]

I have noticed the word “encourage” before. Ministers are being told that they should encourage employers to pay the living wage. I have thought about that: what does it actually mean? It is motherhood and apple pie on one level, but if we take it seriously, what does it mean?

If I encounter a company that is perfectly profitable, particularly if it seems to be taking advantage of its work force, of course I will urge it to pay the living wage, but many companies are on the brink of bankruptcy. Would Members urge them to increase their pay levels substantially in those circumstances? That would be extremely irresponsible. These bland phrases, although they may be superficially attractive, are potentially very dangerous.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Vince Cable]

I have given way a number of times, and I should now like to finish what I have to say.

Along with the element of its remit that relates to the impact on employment, one of the key concepts in the work of the Low Pay Commission is what it calls the “bite”. That terrible bit of jargon refers to the relationship between the minimum wage and the median. It may be technical, but it is very important, because the closer the minimum wage gets to the median, the more likely it is that a big increase will displace employment. When the minimum wage was first introduced in 1999, it was about 46% of the median; now it is 53%, and there have been successive increases.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

The median wage is falling.

[Vince Cable]

It did fall slightly last year—just slightly. However, the minimum wage is now significantly above that level.

That is a major issue for young workers and for apprenticeships. For young workers, particularly those aged 16 and 17, the so-called bite is close to 80%, which means that any significant increase in the minimum wage would have the unfortunate effect of displacing most of them from the labour force. That is a factor that has weighed very heavily with the Low Pay Commission when it has made its recommendations.

[Grahame M. Morris]

Will the Secretary of State give way? I will be very brief.

[Vince Cable]

I will be indulgent.

[Grahame M. Morris]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State. He is being very generous, and I appreciate the way in which he has engaged with interventions. May I just put one thought in his mind? A number of very profitable companies are offering their workers—many of them young workers—zero-hours or four-hours contracts, which have a terrible effect on a person’s ability not just to live but to exist.

[Vince Cable]

I have already said in the House on several occasions that the Government are now engaged in a public conversation about how we deal with zero-hours contract abuses. I think the hon. Gentleman has to be careful as the research that has been carried out suggests that very large numbers of people on zero-hours contracts like that model, but we must deal with the abuses, of course.

[Mr MacNeil]

rose—

[Vince Cable]

It would be remiss of me not to take at least one intervention from the Scottish nationalists, so I will do so.

[Mr MacNeil]

May I put in the right hon. Gentleman’s mind the words of Paul Krugman earlier this week? He spoke about unemployment insurance and how when money is in the hands of the poorest in society, that creates demand, which in turn creates jobs. The corollary of that is that the higher the minimum wage, the more money is put in people’s pockets and the more it circulates, and we return to a system, as in the 1950s, when inequality is reduced, rather than the situation now, when inequality is equivalent to what it was in the 1920s.

[Vince Cable]

Of course an increase in wages among other things increases demand, and that is one factor that has to be taken into account. That leads me on to the next point I want to make, which is how this year I have approached the issue of the mandate of the Low Pay Commission. Opposition Members have been questioning that and saying, “Why don’t you change the way we look at it?” I have done that, while respecting its independence. I have said the Government want a faster increase in the minimum wage, reflecting the fact we now have a real recovery, and in order to achieve that the LPC should look at a wider range of factors governing low pay. They include the fact that at the national economy level, the Governor of the Bank of England has now said that if unemployment falls to 7%, he would want there to be some tightening of monetary policy, as the environment will have changed. We would want to see what impact that will have on the cost of employment, which has been cushioned by the Chancellor’s decision to bring in the employment allowance—£2,000 for the first employee—as it significantly changes the cost of employment. We also need to look at the impact it would have on the Government, because there is an interaction with tax credits, tax yields and corporate taxation. There is the impact on take-home pay, too, and therefore we have to factor in our tax policy.

I have therefore asked the LPC to look at this problem in a much more holistic way. I do not know what it will conclude, and I will be respectful of its independent advice, but that is the way we are approaching this and we do now recognise that in a recovering economy low-paid workers should derive benefits, and that is how we are approaching this matter.

[Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Vince Cable]

I have taken several interventions already.

Finally, let me say a few more words about enforcement. Clearly the minimum wage is only effective if it is properly enforced and has the force of law. It is important not just for its own sake but to give workers confidence that if they complain, those complaints will be followed through. There are several levels as enforcement is a complicated process. First, it is a problem of securing arrears and then imposing fines. We then have a name and shame system, and ultimately there is prosecution in court, but that has hardly been used either under the last Government or this one because it requires a demonstration of proof of intent, which is very difficult to demonstrate.

Let me explain how these various levels are now operating. In the last year, arrears of about £4 million were paid, compared with an average of about £3 million over recent years. About 26,000 workers benefited from that. Fines are crucial, because under the last Government and this one, that is where the main enforcement action has been taken. Last year 700 enforcement cases were taken to the level of fines. The amount paid was seven times as much as was paid under the last year of the Labour Government. One can argue about this from one year to another, and these things fluctuate, but any suggestion that the regime has become easier is simply not true.

[Michael Connarty]

rose—

[Vince Cable]

I am going to proceed to the end of my speech.

We are now in the process of considerably increasing the penalties, both in terms of raising the fine from £5,000 to £20,000, subject to the House approving the legislation, and applying it per worker rather than per firm, which is, of course, much more draconian.

The new guidelines for the naming and shaming process were issued to HMRC in October. There is also the question of due process. Companies that are about to be named and shamed can appeal, and it is estimated that that process takes roughly 150 days. I imagine that a significant number of cases would begin to emerge by the end of February; we can test that when the issue arises.

To summarise, we have a good system, but we want to strengthen it, and to strengthen enforcement. We also want to respect the principles of the Low Pay Commission. We want to see improvements to the minimum wage, but that needs to be done properly, through the independent Low Pay Commission. I therefore urge my colleagues to oppose the motion, and to support the Government’s amendment.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—