European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [Lords]

Wayne David Excerpts

Monday 10th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

Clause 1 sets out the purpose of the Bill and why legislation is required. It is required by section 3 of the European Union Act 2011, under which primary legislation must be passed to confirm parliamentary approval of certain European Council decisions. The provisions of section 3 relate to Council decisions made under article 48(6) of the treaty on European Union, and the reason for that provision in the Act was that such decisions allow for the revision of European Union treaties. The procedure under article 48(6) is known as the simplified revision procedure. In taking through the 2011 Act, the Government enhanced the role of Parliament in the approval of any such revision of the European Union treaties. The Bill marks the first use of those new provisions.

The purpose of the Bill, as set out in subsection (2), is to approve the

“European Council decision of 25 March 2011 amending Article 136 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union”.

That decision seeks to add a new paragraph to article 136, which recognises that EU member states whose currency is the euro—I stress that the proposed new paragraph applies only to eurozone members—may establish a financial stability mechanism. In other words, it confirms that the eurozone member states can set up a permanent stability mechanism to support fellow eurozone members that are in financial difficulty.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

The former Financial Secretary to the Treasury, the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr Hoban), stated in evidence to the European Scrutiny Committee that

“we do not believe that it is legally necessary for the Article 136 change to be made before the ESM comes into force. It is desirable, but I do not think that it is necessary.”

Have the Government changed their position since that statement, or was the Financial Secretary wrong?

[Mr Lidington]

It has been our position since the proposal was first made in autumn 2010 that such an amendment of article 136 would give eurozone member states firmer constitutional and legal certainty than if they simply proceeded to establish the permanent stability mechanism without recourse to such a treaty amendment.

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[Wayne David]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Lidington]

I will let the hon. Gentleman come in again, but then I want to make some progress.

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[Wayne David]

The Minister is very kind. I am pleased that he has been reappointed. It is good to have a sensible Europe Minister—relatively sensible, anyhow—in place.

May I go back to the point about when the Government established their position? I notice that the former Financial Secretary gave his evidence to the European Scrutiny Committee relatively recently, in March. Is the Minister for Europe right or was the former Financial Secretary right?

[Mr Lidington]

I simply refer the hon. Gentleman to what I said in response to his earlier intervention. The amendment to article 136 will provide our friends and partners who are members of the eurozone with the additional certainty that they have sought ever since the proposal for a treaty change was first made in the autumn of 2010. He is searching for plots and mysteries where none exists. Over the past two and a half years, in every conversation that I have had with my opposite numbers from the eurozone member states, they have been anxious to find out what position the British Government were taking on the treaty amendment and keen that we should be committed to ratifying it, having agreed to it last year.

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[Mr Baron]

I take your point, Mr Evans. My hon. Friend was clearly not listening, because I was talking about currency blocs, and to the best of my knowledge we were not a member of a currency bloc in 1967. However—I throw this back at him—I do not for one moment believe that he is arguing that our exit from the exchange rate mechanism in 1992 did this country any harm at all. In fact, our economic recovery kicked in, almost to the day, because we left what was in effect a currency bloc.

In summary, I fully endorse the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere. We should delay the introduction of the ESM. There are too many questions that need answering. I would very much welcome some clarity on the points that I have raised, particularly about the design flaws in the ESM. I would also ask the Minister for Europe to address the fundamental point: why the Government continue to believe that by joining in the political mantra that we need to save the euro, we are doing our eurozone partners any favours. I would point out to him that all the economic evidence suggests that by sticking to that mantra, and indeed by implementing the policy, we are prolonging the agony and delaying the inevitable.

[Wayne David]

I profoundly disagree with the previous contribution. I am no fan of the Government, but it is simply sensible for the Bill to be agreed and the amendment to be defeated, because it is sensible for us to introduce the European stability mechanism as quickly as is practicable. That is in Europe’s interests, but more importantly it is in the United Kingdom’s best interests. I say that for one simple but important reason: about 40% of the United Kingdom’s trade is with our eurozone partners, so it is in our best interests for stability and eventually prosperity to be achieved and maintained inside the eurozone.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend that a large portion of our trade is with the rest of the European Union. Of course, we have a massive trade deficit, and one of the reasons why is the effective undervaluation of the German currency. If the eurozone broke up, the new Deutschmark would appreciate and we would become much more competitive with Germany, which would help our manufacturing.

[Wayne David]

I am afraid that I do not share that confidence. If that course of events took place, it would be a massive step into the unknown. Nobody could say with any definiteness what would happen. Indeed, the converse of what my hon. Friend says could also be true, and there would be greater economic difficulties. It is therefore important to recognise the size of the single market and of the eurozone, and to recognise that much of our trade is dependent on the success of the eurozone.

[Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)]

Contrary to what a number of previous speakers have said, the UK currency has devalued by around 20% over the last two years, yet we have had little or no benefit from our trade with the eurozone area, because of the instability. Would not passing this Bill lead to greater stability and a net benefit for the British economy?

[Wayne David]

The likelihood is that that would indeed be case. I am not one of those who subscribes to the Government’s recent mantra that all the problems in the United Kingdom are due to the eurozone. However, it is undoubtedly a fact that for this country eventually to increase its economic prosperity with enlightened policies, we need a successful market in the eurozone that will draw in the products we make.

I could cite numerous examples from economists, but I will focus on important examples from my constituency of Caerphilly, which is still a manufacturing constituency, although it has taken a pounding in recent years. Much of its manufacturing is dependent on exports to the eurozone. I do not suggest for one moment that my constituents are enthusiasts about the eurozone, or indeed about the European Union, but I recognise, in purely bread-and-butter terms, that a stable and prosperous eurozone is in their best interests. Ultimately, their jobs depend on the products they make being exported to the eurozone and being bought there.

[Kelvin Hopkins]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way again. The problem is a lack of demand—the great chasm where there economic demand should be. That is the case because all the countries in the European Union, including ours, are in a process of fairly savage deflation, including deflation of demand, which means that we cannot sell anything. If the eurozone were to be dissolved tomorrow and all those countries were able to reflate, we would sell more and everyone would be better off.

[Wayne David]

Indeed; I have some sympathy with that last comment, but it is not an argument against the European stability mechanism. It is an argument, which I fully support, for having austerity and the European stability mechanism, but it is also a reason for having a positive, stimulating policy, across the European Union as a whole, to ensure an increase in demand and in the activity of the economy, which is sadly lacking at the moment.

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[Mr Love]

rose—

[Wayne David]

rose—

[Mr Lidington]

I want to make progress.

There would be an irony to accepting the amendment. I will not use the type of language used by the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane), but it would be a bit odd if we passed an amendment that constrained the freedom of the House of Commons to ratify a treaty that the Government had agreed to. It would have the consequence of allowing the German constitutional court, the European Court of Justice or other courts to determine when our legislation, which we judge to be definitely in the interests of the UK, should come into force. I do not think that delaying this legislation would serve any purpose or help our national interests, and it may do some harm. I therefore hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere will be willing to withdraw his amendment.

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[Emma Reynolds]

I could not agree with my hon. Friend more and I recommend that the Minister takes his advice. The Government would have more authority to speak to our European partners about the importance of European growth if our economy were growing, but unfortunately it is not—it is one of two G20 economies to be back in recession, which is a great shame. That unfortunately diminishes the authority of our Government’s voice in proposing the useful measures that my hon. Friend suggests.

I mentioned the Minister using his multilingualism to build bridges with our European partners, which the Opposition believe is essential. Even if it runs against the wishes of Conservative Back Benchers who are nervous about the Government’s continued commitment to European membership, the Minister is right to reassure our European partners that our place is firmly in the EU.

[Wayne David]

On dialogue, which I agree is extremely important, our dialogue with Ireland, which has the same language, is vital. Will my hon. Friend speculate on what would happen to our good relationship with Ireland if the closeness of our two economies were not fully realised? What detrimental impact beyond the economic could that have on our long-term relations with Ireland?

[Emma Reynolds]

Our relationship with the Republic of Ireland, which is incredibly important, is testament to the temporary mechanisms put in place in May 2010, which had cross-party agreement. Conservative Members like to tell Labour Members that the mechanisms were agreed unilaterally, but there is proof in a note by the former Economic Secretary—she is now Secretary of State for International Development—of cross-party agreement on setting up the EFSM at a time when the eurozone looked like it might collapse. The EFSM has been incredibly important to Ireland’s recovery, so much so that Ireland has been able to sell Government bonds on the international markets again since July this year.

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[Wayne David]

Both new clauses call for reports to be made to Parliament. There is a strong case to be made for in-depth reports to be debated on the Floor of the House, but there is also room for debate in Committees, and particularly the European Scrutiny Committee. Does she envisage that the debate should be conducted not just on the Floor of the House, but elsewhere?

[Emma Reynolds]

I agree with my hon. Friend. New clause 1 would mean an annual report by the Chancellor on the economic impact to the UK economy of the operation of the ESM, and new clause 2 would mean the Foreign Secretary submits a report when a loan is made. As my hon. Friend suggests, the reports would be discussed not only on the Floor of the House and the other place, but in the European Scrutiny Committee and other Committees that deem them important.

The success of the ESM is in our national interest. If it is used effectively and appropriately, it could have a positive effect on our economy as well as on the member states to which it gives support. However, what if the ESM’s conditionality is misguided and imposes austere measures?

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[Emma Reynolds]

Conditionality should not be too severe. The ECB’s initiative to buy Government bonds, which was announced by Mario Draghi last week, would be linked to support provided by the ESM. That is why it is vital that the reports asked for in the new clauses are made to Parliament—there is an interaction between the ESM and the initiatives announced by the ECB last week.

[Wayne David]

That is important. The situation is volatile, nobody knows with any certainty what will happen next, and the interrelationship and co-ordination between different financial instruments—the ECB bond market initiative has a relationship with the ESM facility—are important. That makes a regular, ongoing review to find out how compatible they are in practice all the more important.

[Emma Reynolds]

I agree with my hon. Friend. The new clauses would introduce annual systematic assessments of the impact on our economy of the ESM and, in specific cases, of loans granted by the ESM. As he suggests, that is becoming ever more important, given the complicated interaction with the ECB’s other initiatives. If ESM conditionality is too harsh, we fear that it could have a detrimental effect not only on the member state to which the support is being granted but indirectly on our own economy, and could shrink the eurozone economy.

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[Emma Reynolds]

It is nice that the hon. Gentleman has made a late entrance but, had he been here from the start, he would have known that the Opposition are not in favour of the Government paying into the ESM. He was not here when I mentioned it, so I shall say again that in May 2010 the then Economic Secretary, the now International Development Secretary, admitted that there was cross-party consensus that if the eurozone collapsed, we would have to agree to the emergency measures drawn up at the last Council, when the then Labour Chancellor, in the interim period after the election, was still in place. So there was cross-party agreement—I can show him the documentary evidence, if he wants to see it.

On new clause 2, it is also important that the Foreign Secretary provides a report whenever a loan is made under the ESM. Both reports will enhance scrutiny in the House.

[Wayne David]

There is one important element of the ESM with which I am not familiar—I frankly admit—and that is the degree of private sector involvement. In this respect, the IMF is an example of good practice, but given that I and—I suspect—many other Members are not familiar with this element, an effective annual report would be crucial.

[Emma Reynolds]

I agree that it would be important. It is not clear when the ESM will be introduced—the constitutional court in Germany will rule on Wednesday —or what the significance or extent of the interaction with the private sector will be. It is important for those reasons as well, therefore, that the Chancellor and the Foreign Secretary produce reports in the way suggested by the new clauses. It would enhance the scrutiny of these important subjects in the House and the other place and make it clearer to the general public exactly how the ESM will operate and how its operations will affect the British economy.

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The proposals have provoked another interesting debate—we have had a lot of that this afternoon—but this is essentially a simple, straightforward, technical piece of legislation, and I urge the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) to consider whether there is any value in pressing the new clause to a vote. I urge her to withdraw it.

[Wayne David]

I strongly support the new clause. We need to be frank and recognise that this Bill represents a new departure. Inevitably, therefore, we cannot assume that every dot and comma in the European stability mechanism will be absolutely correct, or that there will be no scope for change in the future. There might well be change, and who can tell, in this fast-moving situation, what the demands of the immediate future will be? It is therefore entirely sensible to call for full, comprehensive reports to be provided to the House on an annual basis.

[Mr Love]

Does my hon. Friend believe that the plea that we have just heard from the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) was a signal that he does not want another row between the coalition partners?

[Wayne David]

My hon. Friend could well be right. Who knows? I would not be entirely surprised if that were the case. However, it is important that we rise above any internecine squabbles.

We are concerned about the well-being of the country, which is why it is important to conduct comprehensive reviews and to debate them on the Floor of the House. As was pointed out earlier, much of the legislation is of a technical—almost esoteric—nature, and the reports will need to go into some detail. It will therefore be insufficient simply to present them on the Floor of the House. They should also be debated by the European Scrutiny Committee, which is well led by the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash). Surprisingly, he is not in the Chamber. This must be the first time in a long time that he has missed a European Union debate. I hope to goodness that he is not ill.

[Mr Love]

For what is probably the first time, I agree with the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash), in that he insists that the House should do more to scrutinise European matters. Does not my hon. Friend agree that the new clause presents an ideal mechanism for so doing?

[Wayne David]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend.

This is an important matter, and it should be debated not only on the Floor of the House but by the European Scrutiny Committee. We should also encourage other Select Committees—the Treasury Committee in particular —to debate these issues. It is one of the weaknesses of the House that, all too often, we tend to put European issues into a neat compartment without fully appreciating the fact that they are cross-cutting, cross-departmental and cross-Committee in nature. If we are fully to appreciate their impact, and the need for them to be changed, we need to discuss them in a number of different Committees.

[Emma Reynolds]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is regrettable that the Liberal Democrats—who are now in government, not in opposition—should not want increased transparency and scrutiny of the effects of the ESM on our economy? Had they still been in opposition, I am sure that they would have been calling for that today.

[Wayne David]

I can see that the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) is straining at the leash to intervene on me. I will give way to him, so that he can give my hon. Friend a comprehensive answer. She has made an astute point.

[Martin Horwood]

I would like to put on the record, on behalf of the Liberal Democrats, my belief that this House should indeed carry out much more scrutiny of European affairs. I also agree with the hon. Gentleman that that should be done on a broader basis, and that the departmental Select Committees should be involved. Indeed, we have suggested as much in our submission to the current discussions on European scrutiny. I am not sure, however, that we need ever more reports being discussed in addition to all the legislation and everything else that we debate, interminably, on the Floor of the House. He cannot possibly argue that we do not spend enough time debating Europe in this Chamber, as we are doing now.

[Wayne David]

I do not want to labour this point. I welcome the Liberal Democrats’ desire for more transparency and scrutiny, but experience shows that, all too often, those words come to nothing unless there is a focus on something. The importance of the new clauses is that they would provide that “something” for the debate to focus on. Nothing concentrates the mind better than a report that has a distinct niche in the parliamentary calendar to enable that debate to take place.

[Mr Love]

This is not just a matter of having a focus for the debate. It is also a question of the sheer importance of these aspects of the European Union. Their influence on the eurozone and the British economy make it imperative that we hold such discussions.

[Wayne David]

My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. We would not be holding a debate for the sake of it, and we are not talking about transparency for the sake of it. We are trying to underline the importance of the ESM, which is being developed for the first time. It is imperative that we have an ongoing debate.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Is my hon. Friend aware that, only last week, members of the Welsh Affairs Committee were in Brussels to talk to MEPs and Commissioners about this important issue? Does he agree that that is symptomatic of the enormous appetite for discussion of these strategic issues that have a direct impact on the economic future of Britain?

[Wayne David]

I was not aware that the Welsh Affairs Committee had been in Brussels, but that underlines my point that this issue is absolutely central to the European Union at the moment. Debates in Select Committees should not be confined to the European Scrutiny Committee; other Committees should debate these matters as well. I have to say that I would not immediately have thought of the Welsh Affairs Committee as an appropriate vehicle for that, but I imagine that much of the discussion in Brussels focused on how Wales would be impacted by the developments in the European Union.

[Geraint Davies]

As my hon. Friend has questioned the legitimacy of the Welsh Affairs Committee in that regard, I should make him aware that the Committee has recently published an excellent report on inward investment and prosperity in Wales. A key part of that economic activity involves inward investment from and trade with Europe. That is why we adopted a nationally based view—in regard to the nation of Wales—as opposed to the departmental silo-based views. We have a crucial locus on this matter.

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[Wayne David]

I am pleased that my hon. Friend made that intervention, as it takes me neatly to my next point.

The ESM is important for all parts of the United Kingdom—including Wales—because it will help to ensure that the eurozone becomes a stable and attractive market to which we can take products made in our constituencies of Swansea, Caerphilly and elsewhere. That is central to the debate, and it concerns me greatly that some—although not all—Government Members actually want the eurozone to collapse. They want that outcome for a pathological, ideological reason, without realising the immediate material consequences that it would have for jobs in our constituencies.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

I would classify myself as one of the people who does want the eurozone to collapse, because I think that only with the collapse of the euro can the economies of Europe begin to grow again. It was the same when the Asian crisis hit, and the economies that devalued were the ones that grew again fastest and soonest.

[Wayne David]

I simply do not agree, and there are plenty of academics and learned people who do not agree either. Most importantly of all, plenty of workers and employers in my constituency do not believe it. As I said, I am not suggesting for one moment that the EU and the eurozone are particularly popular with people—they are not, and I fully understand why not—but in the end people are concerned about their livelihoods and their prosperity, which depend on jobs. That is why it is important for this country to do everything we can to ensure that the eurozone is helped to get over its present difficulties and made prosperous once again.

[Mr MacShane]

Does my hon. Friend accept that we do not have to go to Asia, for example, to see devaluation before our very eyes, because the British pound has been substantially devalued in the last four years, and it has led to a massive loss of jobs, employment and growth, and has brought in a recession? Perhaps devaluation and a sensible Government can help, but devaluation and this Government are a recipe for disaster.

[Wayne David]

Yes, I agree. If we take the argument of the devaluers to the extreme, having competitive devaluation among different states on the continent of Europe is indeed a recipe for disaster. It is a mistake to believe that, because devaluation might have helped one country in one particular circumstance, we can extrapolate beyond that and assume that devaluation is a recipe for everyone.

I have generally supported the ESM, because I think it is necessary and will make a huge contribution—not an exclusive one by any means, but a huge one—to helping the eurozone in its current difficulties. I am not suggesting for one moment, however, that the EU has everything worked out perfectly, so far as the ESM is concerned. What is needed is an ongoing review, and flexibility is required so that the good things are built on and the not-so-good things altered. That is why new clauses 1 and 2 are so important.

I recently read with great interest an excellent research paper produced by the House of Commons Library, which succinctly summarised a number of the reservations that people have about the ESM; it is quite right that people should have some reservations about it, so let me mention a few of them.

The first relates to the amount of €500 billion being made available for lending capacity. A number of people have suggested that, given how the crisis might develop, that amount could be too small, so we need to contemplate a larger amount in future. That applies particularly if it is not just Greece and Portugal that experience difficulties and if things become more problematic in Spain or even in Italy. In those circumstances, it might be necessary to consider having a facility much greater than the currently envisaged €500 billion.

The second reservation by those concerned about the ESM is, as we touched on earlier, the fact that it is but one of a number of different initiatives designed to help the eurozone. We are particularly aware of the initiatives, perhaps belated, of the European Central Bank and of the desire to intervene in the bond markets. That is one of the terms of reference and intentions of this facility as well. We thus need to ensure that there is complete complementarity, no duplication of effort and no contradiction in these different facilities; everybody must be pulling in the right direction. Co-ordination with other lending institutions and with other bodies and initiatives is very important indeed. Linked to the size of the €500 billion facility is the fact that some people believe that in a worst-case scenario, the rescue funds would be insufficient and would run out of money. It is therefore necessary to have an ongoing review of whether that is likely to happen or not.

[Mr Love]

Is that not recognised by the European authorities, particularly the European Central Bank, in moving part of the way to becoming a lender of last resort, which might be necessary if the eurozone is to be held together?

[Wayne David]

Yes, that is an important point, and the role of the ECB is central. Many of us would like to see it being more proactive far sooner than it has been in the past, but its more assertive role could be critical in the future.

Another concern is the circularity of having the facility guaranteed by the same group of countries that might draw on the fund. For example, we all know that Italy’s situation could become difficult, yet Italy is a country that is, at the same time, ensuring that resources are going into the fund that it might itself be required to draw on. That strange relationship and potential incompatibility at the heart of the ESM needs to be thought about carefully. What is important is what is being established here and now. Nevertheless, as situations develop, it becomes all the more important to review the circumstances.

The credit rating of the ESM is another issue. We all know that certain countries, including a number of eurozone countries, have been downgraded in the not-too-distant past. That includes France, which came as a big surprise to many people. The EFSF has been downgraded, too, and we must be sure that that does not develop further with respect to the ESM.

[Geraint Davies]

My hon. Friend and the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) have made the point that if some countries in a group are both taking and giving money at the same time, it amounts to a problem. What about a simple model of a credit union and a community, from which some people put money in and some take it out? What about a marketplace in which some countries put resources in so that other countries can consume their exports? Is that not part of a system for helping broader growth, which is not a problem at all?

[Wayne David]

My hon. Friend could well be right, and I hope that he is, but it is an issue that needs to be rationalised and thought through carefully. My feeling is that, at this stage of the ESM’s development, it has not been given serious thought. It may be necessary and desirable, but it must, as I say, be thought through carefully. It must not happen by accident, but by proper design. The fact that it is not in the design of the programme at the moment provides all the more reason to ensure that we have a proper review and some time for the objective to be explicitly stated.

My last point is about private sector involvement. It is assumed that we are talking about public money, which to a large extent we are, but there is also a role for private sector involvement, which will be done in accordance with good practice as established by the International Monetary Fund. That is welcome, but, again, it needs to be monitored carefully. If we need to enhance our programme or provide more stipulations, those things must be done.

[Mr Love]

Is not the International Monetary Fund a very good example of private sector involvement? No one has ever lost any money as a result of investing in the IMF, and if we follow prudent principles, the same should apply to the ESM.

[Wayne David]

I agree that the IMF is an example of good practice, and I think it laudable that the ESM is basing much of its operation on the way in which it has operated, successfully, for a number of years. Don’t get me wrong: I am not against private sector involvement—quite the opposite—but I think that clear terms of reference need to be established and monitored.

For that reason, and for all the other reasons that I have given, I think that both new clauses are eminently sensible. I think they will enhance both parliamentary democracy and the role of this Parliament. I also think that, ultimately, they will send our partners in Europe the extremely positive message that we are serious not only about establishing the ESM, but about ensuring that it works effectively well into the future.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David), who almost made the new clauses sound respectable. In fact, they are some of the most splendidly pointless measures that we have seen in the House; they serve absolutely no purpose.

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[Wayne David]

As the Minister explained, the Bill is narrow and specific. It is very short, but very important. I should like to say a few words to put it in a broader context. I was a Member of the European Parliament for 10 years. I was elected in 1989, so I saw the completion of the single market. I well remember Lord Cockfield, Commissioner for the internal market from 1984 to 1988, arguing forcefully for the completion of the single market. I also remember the Cecchini report, which was essential in winning the necessary ideological battle for progress to be made on the single market.

At that time, many of us in the socialist group at the European Parliament had reservations about how it was envisaged that the single market would develop and concerns about the widening gap between the rich and poor parts of the European Union. The response then was to enhance the structural funds. In particular, cohesion funding was brought forward to address initially the concerns of the four poorest member states and it expanded in size to encompass some of the new countries coming into the European Union. As we all know, the Maastricht treaty was in many ways the logical conclusion of what people saw as a journey from the creation of the single market into a fully fledged economic and monetary union.

Britain, of course, had its famous opt-out and that was probably right. That was certainly recognised by the Labour Government elected in 1997. The five economic tests came forward. A judgment had to be made on joining economic and monetary union. Would it provide the United Kingdom with higher growth, stability and a lasting increase in the number of jobs? It was decided that those criteria would have to be met if Britain were to join EMU.

It is important to stress that although there were economic concerns and reservations, there was a tremendous political impetus in favour of economic and monetary union. That was clearly demonstrated when Greece was allowed to join EMU in 2001. Everything was okay as long as the world economy, and the eurozone economy as it developed, were doing well. But the chickens came home to roost with the monetary collapse of 2008 and the consequences that emanated from it. With the benefit of hindsight, many people would probably argue with the way in which a single currency was created and the speed at which that movement was made, and with the fact that many countries, particularly Greece, were allowed to join it without proper economic consideration being given to that. Nevertheless, the political impetus was there.

Now, of course, the question is how we deal with the problems that have arisen in recent times. It would be a huge mistake if the voices of the Eurosceptics were taken seriously and we stepped back into splendid isolation and not only refused to participate in the European venture but wished the end of the eurozone. I say that not because of any ideological commitment to the idea of the eurozone but because I realise pragmatically that a successful eurozone is important for the British economy and the British people.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

I was not planning to intervene in this debate, but I do so because the hon. Gentleman refers to ignoring the voices of Eurosceptics. Those are the voices of what appears to be the majority of people in this country, if one believes the polls. Perhaps we should allow the public to have a say in a proper referendum, and then it would be for them to decide whether we want to draw back from the EU rather than having pro-Europeans patronising the country about what we should or should not do in relation to Europe.

[Wayne David]

I think that most people in this country are concerned about its economic well-being. Yes, they are concerned about our national sovereignty; even people who describe themselves as pro-European do not want to give up British sovereignty. Many people see the European Union as essentially a mechanism to pool sovereignty in the collective best interests of those who live on that continent. It is important for that spirit to be carried forward in how we relate to the current difficulties in the eurozone.

I generally welcome the pragmatic way in which the Government have gone about establishing the ESM. As the Minister said, nobody would claim for one moment that the ESM, by itself, will solve the problems of the eurozone—it will not—but it is one important step towards resolving them. I therefore hope that this House will give its endorsement to it. However, to take his comments further, the ESM is not enough. It must be monitored, examined and possibly extended in some way if there is a need for that in future, but we must also pursue policies collectively that will enhance the competitiveness of the European Union.

Just as importantly, we need a growth strategy. That is the crucial issue that faces the peoples of all countries within the European Union. If recent history teaches us anything, it is that austerity by itself is not enough. It is not enough in this country—that is why we are in a double-dip recessions—or in the eurozone. I very much hope that there will be an increasing question mark over the German-led policy of austerity above all else. We need to make sure not only that we have reasonable public finances, that the debt burden on our neighbour countries is reduced and that there is competitiveness, but that our economies are collectively stimulated. That is in the best interests of this country. I believe that if the ESM is agreed, it will be an important step towards a more prosperous Europe for us—but it is only one step.