19:00 - The House divided: - Ayes: 208 / Noes: 278 - Question accordingly negatived.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)
I welcome this debate, and may I take this opportunity to do something fairly unusual by welcoming the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) to her first Opposition day debate on transport even though she has been in her post for over 15 months? One could say it has been a long time in coming, but I hope this will not be like what sometimes happens with buses when we get two at once.
I certainly agree with the hon. Lady that buses matter and that they matter to a huge amount of people, and that sometimes their importance is overlooked. I could say that I think that has been overlooked by the hon. Lady, because she has not asked a single oral question about buses in all the oral questions to me as Transport Secretary in this House and, indeed, there have been only four written questions about buses from her to me or the Department. So I am pleased about her newly awakened interest in buses, and perhaps what awoke her interest was the announcement by the Chancellor of the Exchequer earlier this week on proper devolution to Greater Manchester, with a new, powerful mayor. That was announced by the Chancellor alongside many leaders, including from her own party—who did not keep their identity a secret, unlike, it would seem, those who attended the summit with the hon. Lady.
I must also say that, despite all the points the Opposition make about the state of the bus industry and the changing of the regulations so far as the cities are concerned, over 13 years in office they did nothing—despite all the grand programmes, over 13 years in power they did nothing.
Mr McLoughlin
I cannot blame the hon. Lady because she was not here during those heady days of Labour party power, but if she wants to mount a defence for why her party did nothing in 13 years, I will give way to her.
Chi Onwurah
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way so graciously. Does he agree with me that, by giving local authorities the power to institute quality contracts, the last Labour Government did do something for good services? Will he also join my hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) in welcoming the fact that the North East combined authority is seeking to deliver good quality contracts for constituents?
Mr McLoughlin
The simple fact is that, if my memory is correct, it is legislation enacted in 2000 that allowed quality contracts to come in, yet none was introduced during that time. [Interruption.] I am saying no, but I will check the exact date.
I should point out that it is this Government who are making the difference—even Labour in the north know it now—and I am proud of our record on buses. So perhaps today, I can put straight a few of the facts; indeed, we might end up even agreeing. Let me spell them out. The motion today says that buses matter to the economy. Of course they do, which is why we have been investing heavily in them. The motion also says that bus use outside London is falling. I have some good news for the House and the hon. Member for Wakefield: actually, it is not falling at all; it is going up, reversing the trend we inherited from the last Government. In the last year alone, there have been 4.7 billion bus journeys in England, the highest number since records began. There is growth outside London as well—up 1.5% on last year. Buses in England are busier. In 2013-14, 16.1 billion passenger miles were travelled on buses in England, up from 15.2 billion in 2009-10—an increase of 900 million journey miles.
Mr Tom Harris
But if the Secretary of State excludes all London bus journeys from those figures, historically—from the point of deregulation in 1986 to the present day—bus passenger numbers outside London have plummeted.
Mr McLoughlin
No. As I have just pointed out, the trend has been reversed—[Interruption]—in the last year for which figures were available, and not just inside London but outside it too.
Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) (Lab)
Returning to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah), will the Secretary of State now take this opportunity, very belatedly, to back the North East combined authority in the decision that has been taken to press ahead with the quality contract scheme in Tyne and Wear?
Mr McLoughlin
It has to go through a process that involves the traffic commissioners, and it would be wrong of me at this stage to take a view one way or the other. The process was set out in legislation introduced by the last Government.
As I was saying, we have started to see growth under this Government, because the services are better. Buses are becoming more accessible, so that everyone can use them: well over three quarters of the fleet is now fully accessible. Buses are also getting safer: there is CCTV on 82% of buses in England, an all-time high. Buses are getting easier to use, with smart card readers on 86% of English buses outside London, up from just 25% when the last Government were in power.
So when the hon. Member for Wakefield calls for Oyster-style ticketing, there is good news: we are making it happen, when the last Government did not. A lot of progress has been made. Those are the real facts: a growing industry, a popular industry, with high and rising passenger satisfaction levels. Investment is going into the industry—£1.4 billion of private capital over the last five years by the major operators alone. That means newer, cleaner, greener buses, better services and new information systems. The “Boris bus” in London is a world beater, and the pensioner pass has been protected. This year, we will fund spending on concessionary travel by nearly £1 billion.
Toby Perkins
I am very grateful that the Secretary of State has chosen to do that, and he will know that many of his constituents choose to do that. However, if they choose to do so on Derbyshire’s bus services, they would probably not recognise the description he has just given. Will he at least recognise that many people in our constituencies—old people, who really rely on bus services, and people who cannot get to work without them—would not recognise the rosy picture he is attempting to paint?
Mr McLoughlin
The hon. Gentleman talks about a “rosy picture”; I am just giving him the facts and figures. If he does not like the facts, no doubt he will change them. However, I will stick by the facts that I have here.
James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con)
National Express, which plays an important role in providing bus services in my constituency, made a decision to re-route some services to the Lodgefield estate without consulting the local authority and without enough consultation with local people. Does my right hon. Friend agree that such companies need to understand that safety issues can be resolved if they work with their Member of Parliament and with the local authority? We have now had a promise that one of the routes is to be restored.
Mr McLoughlin
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I have no doubt that that route is going to be restored as a result of the bus company taking notice of the campaign that he led. I would recommend such action to all Members of Parliament. Perhaps I can also set the record straight in relation to Milton Keynes. The scheme to which the hon. Member for Wakefield referred was in fact started by Milton Keynes council when it was Conservative controlled. The pressure for it came from my Parliamentary Private Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart), who has a long-standing interest in transport, having also served on the Transport Select Committee. He, too, knows a bit about campaigning for good services for local constituents.
Andrew Gwynne
It is all fine and well for private bus companies to have smart card technology on their buses, but does not the Secretary of State understand that what we want is proper integration between the various modes of public transport? We want a single pricing structure across all those modes so that my constituents in Greater Manchester—and others outside Manchester and London—can move from train to tram to bus easily.
Mr McLoughlin
I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman on the desirability of easier access to the various modes of public transport, whether in relation to the trams and buses in his own area or to other forms of inter-modal change. He is absolutely right. When people turn up in a city that they are new to, they need to be able to get a better understanding of the public transport there, rather than having to find their way through a maze of information. I hope that recent advances in technology—they were not there five years ago so I cannot blame the last Government for not implementing them—will mean that bus and tram operators can all provide the much better service that passengers want for the longer term.
Tom Blenkinsop
I want to raise an issue relating to the Government’s record on concessionary travel for pensioners and disabled people using coach services. This Government removed that concessionary travel in 2011. Pensioners from my constituency who wanted to go to Newcastle, York or Leeds, for example, used to rely on those coach services, but they no longer exist. Will the Secretary of State look into that matter?
Mr McLoughlin
Everybody tries to look at the various services. I have not heard any commitments about new money from the Opposition in this regard. I am not sure whether they are committing today to putting more money into that particular area. Overall, I think we have a strong record. I have heard the shadow Chancellor say that the Opposition Front Bench will make no further commitments, in which case I do not see how they can reverse any of the many changes that have been made.
As I have said, we will spend nearly £1 billion on concessionary travel this year, and that relates not only to the funds that go into the public transport network. A huge amount of money also goes into public transport relating to education and to the health service.
Sir Greg Knight
Has the Secretary of State seen the excellent report by Dick Tracey, a former Member of this House, which suggests that we could cut congestion, reduce journey times for buses and other traffic and save money if we switched off some traffic lights during the evenings? May we have a trial of that excellent idea?
Mr McLoughlin
I think I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that intervention. I have not read that pamphlet by Richard Tracey, but I am sure, knowing my right hon. Friend, that he will ensure that I have a copy in the next few days and I will certainly look at it. Some areas already have part-time traffic lights, which at certain stages are turned off. I would perhaps need a lot more convincing that such lights are practical in every set of circumstances, but I look forward to receiving a letter from him pointing these things out.
As I said, more than £300 million has been allocated to fund major local authority bus projects since 2010, which means: the changes on the ground in places such as Mansfield, Rochdale and Ipswich; two brand new park and ride hubs in York; Bristol’s ambitious £180 million MetroBus network; and, through our £70 million better bus areas fund in 2012, we have supported improvement schemes in 24 local authorities.
Kerry McCarthy
I am glad that the Secretary of State mentioned the MetroBus BRT—bus rapid transit—scheme in Bristol. Is he aware that the local community has concerns about how that scheme is rolling out? We have been told that the Department is not prepared to negotiate or revisit some of the details of the scheme to make sure it represents a good way of spending taxpayers’ money. I am due to meet the Minister in the other place, Baroness Kramer, soon, but can the Secretary of State assure me that the Department is prepared to be as flexible as possible so that we can deliver a bus service that actually tackles Bristol’s hideous congestion?
Mr McLoughlin
The hon. Lady already has a meeting fixed up with my noble Friend, and I am sure she will certainly take on board the points the hon. Lady makes. Whenever these schemes are rolled out we want to ensure that they are the best possible for the areas concerned. Obviously, this scheme is being done in conjunction with the mayor and the local authorities, so I am interested to hear what she is saying about it. I would point out that most schemes are often controversial in their early days and it is only once they are up and running that people see the benefit. A number of cities that have had trams and tram links or other such schemes have found that they start off with some controversy but eventually the benefits are seen.
I was talking about the £70 million we had set aside for the better buses fund in 2012, which supported schemes in 24 local authorities. In Blackpool, a £1.5 million programme has seen investment in traffic management systems, bus lanes and bus shelters. Enhancing buses is a feature of 95% of the projects supported by the £600 million of local sustainable transport fund money. Passenger numbers are going up in Sheffield, thanks to the better bus area, backed by £18 million from the better bus area fund from my Department. Of course it is not just money that counts; we also need to back the ambition and vision. That is what my right hon. Friend the Chancellor did on Monday: a directly elected city region mayor with strong powers will be able to provide the strategic direction for the people and economy of Greater Manchester. It will mean more joined-up decision making in transport, housing and growth. This Government fundamentally believe that devolution and taking this decision will help make that a reality.
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
Like the leaders in Greater Manchester, I welcome the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s statement and, in particular, the powers that are going to be given to the mayor to introduce a franchising system for buses in Greater Manchester. Does that represent a sea change in the Government’s view of franchising, with franchising being seen as a superior way of creating on-road competition for buses?
Mr McLoughlin
I do not think that reflects a change. I would like to have a mosaic of transport systems. What is applicable in certain areas will not be applicable in others, but I am willing to have discussions with leaders in other areas and with people who would put an alternative view of how we best approach these matters. It is important not to get obsessed with one-size-fits-all regulation; a common-sense approach is best for each community.
Bridget Phillipson
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for allowing me to intervene a second time. Does he not understand the apparent inconsistency in the argument being advanced here? On the one hand we are told that Greater Manchester should have these powers, but on the other hand his Department has failed over the past four years to back Tyne and Wear in its very similar approach to these matters. Is there not an inconsistency?
Mr McLoughlin
I do not think that there is inconsistency at all. What we have seen in Greater Manchester is a coming together that goes much wider than just the Manchester authorities, with a much more imaginative scheme that includes the powers of the police and crime commissioner and many services in the area. I think that it is bold and imaginative, and I am sorry that Opposition Members seem to be a bit upset about it—I can see Manchester Members nodding in vigorous agreement with what we are doing.
We must also recognise what great things have been done by the private sector. I want devolution to be a success, based on the best that the public and private sectors can do. The private sector brings ingenuity, creativity and innovation to transport, and that must continue. We have manufacturers in the UK at the cutting edge of technological innovation, and we have operators setting the benchmark for new customer services and investing massively in new vehicles. That includes over 800 new low-carbon buses, supported by Government funding. Through the Office for Low Emission Vehicles, we will be supporting the purchase of hundreds more. I was at the bus expo in Birmingham this morning, seeing for myself what the bus and coach industry has to offer. No one could fail to be impressed by the dynamism of hundreds of the exhibitors.
Of course, there are challenges ahead. We need to go back to good transport in rural areas, for instance. As a resident of rural Derbyshire, I know how important buses are to people in the countryside. For many isolated communities, buses can be a lifeline. The old model of services is changing, and we need to ensure that as it changes people retain access to good transport. We all need to work together to get it right. I want to pay tribute to the brilliant work done by community transport operators and their many volunteers. There are three such operators in my constituency: Bakewell and Eyam Community Transport, Ashbourne Community Transport and Amber Valley Community Transport. They do a fantastic job, as do other community transport operators across the rest of the country. I want to do more to help them, and very soon I will say more on how we can do that.
Mr Jim Cunningham
In principle, I do not have a problem with devolving transport to local authorities, but the resources must go with it. The bill must not become a burden on local authorities so that the Government can get rid of the subsidies.
Mr McLoughlin
As I have set out, I am very committed and will help support the bus industry in this country.
As I was just talking about community transport, I will also say that I want to see faster movement on smart ticketing. That is happening. Only this week, five of the main operators announced a welcome roll-out of joint smart ticketing in cities across England. In west Yorkshire the MCard, launched in July last year, can already be used on 98% of buses in the area and on local rail services. There are now over 500,000 live smart cards and over 1 million smart card transactions per week—I am sure that the hon. Member for Wakefield, as a west Yorkshire MP, already has one in her pocket. Liverpool is launching a multi-operator smart ticket this month. Centro in the west midlands is making great progress too. In August the Solent Go smart ticket was launched, covering Southampton, Hampshire, Portsmouth and the Isle of Wight. That is an excellent model of collaboration. We need to see smaller operators in the towns and the countryside do that too. Great operators, such as Trentbarton in the east midlands, are already there.
That is our record: a Government who have backed business; an industry that is growing; better services attracting more passengers; and real devolution, not just talking about it. This Government are making the difference, unlike the Labour party, which did nothing for bus services when it was in government.
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr John Hayes)
As I survey the Labour Members, particularly those on the Opposition Front Bench, I do not do so in anger or even in sorrow; I do so in pity. I know that many Government Members will think that I am being too generous—they would like me to be more critical—but I would say that surely all but the hardest of hearts can see the Opposition’s pitiful past record, their pitiful performance and their pitiful prospects.
That brings me to the motion, which was moved and given life—I would not say that it was given light, but it was given life—by the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh). I have always liked her since she was a Back Bencher. I remember that in those days she still had promise.
The motion might have referred to the £930 million provided by this Government for concessionary travel entitlement every year. It could have referenced the Government’s £600 million local sustainable transport fund. It should have mentioned that bus fares in England have had an average annual increase of 1.51% under this Government compared with 2.25% each year under the previous Labour Government. It might even have mentioned that the Government funded more than 900 new low-carbon buses during our first two years compared with just 350 in the 13 years that Labour was in power.
Mr Spencer
Is the Minister aware that Labour-controlled Nottinghamshire county council is about to cut £720,000 from its bus budget? What impact will that have on people in north Nottinghamshire and the coalfields who are trying to get access to employment?
Mr Hayes
My hon. Friend will know that Nottinghamshire is dear to my heart; indeed, some would say that it is etched on my heart. He will know that the Trent Barton 141 bus, which runs between Sutton, Mansfield and Nottingham and stops at Blidworth, has been reduced, and that the N28 bus from Blidworth has a revised timetable and, outrageously, no longer stops at Newark hospital. Nottinghamshire county council—now under Labour control—has brought about that eventuality. Oh my goodness, how we look back with awe and regret at the passing of the benevolent county council controlled by the Conservatives under Mrs Kay Cutts, my former colleague on that council.
Benjamin Disraeli may have been prescient when he lamented
“how much easier it is to be critical than to be correct.”
In trying to be correct, the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) did us a service. He made it absolutely clear that, directly contrary to what the motion indicates, bus occupancy has risen and passenger miles on local bus services are up, yet the motion is predicated on the very opposite assumption.
We fully understand that buses are essential to many of our fellow citizens. We are of course conscious of the difference they make to access to opportunity. The shadow Secretary of State was absolutely right about that. When I heard the hon. Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass) say that she lived in one world and I lived in another and that mine was the world of London, I thought she should come to South Holland in Lincolnshire because it could not be less like London. My rural constituents depend on buses to get to work, school or other facilities for their very well-being. The kind of people who depend on buses are those like my mother-in-law in Nottingham. She has never been able to drive and has used a bus all her life. Do not tell us that we do not know or understand. Not only do we represent people who rely on buses, but our families and friends rely on buses too.
Robert Jenrick (Newark) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that if the Opposition care so passionately about buses, they will encourage their colleagues on Labour-controlled Nottinghamshire county council, whom I am meeting next week, to reverse some of their striking cuts to rural bus services throughout my constituency and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer)? Those cuts are isolating people in rural areas, and they are finding it difficult to get to school and work—exactly the problems that Labour is trying to address.
Mr Hayes
I know that that Labour county council has cruelly cut the bus services to places such as Dunham-on-Trent, Egmanton and East Bridgford—villages that I know well and that are ably represented by my hon. Friend, who has made such a stunning impression since he was elected to this House. Buses are critical for people without access to a car. Some 49% of bus trips outside London are made by people with no access to a car—a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) and the Secretary of State, who spoke so ably at the beginning of the debate. A well-run bus service is crucial for older and disabled people, and I take on board comments from across the House about disability, and particularly about talking buses. I make a commitment to the shadow Minister that I will look again at that matter and do all I can to put right what is wrong, if further steps can be made.
The Government’s expenditure on buses reflects our commitment to them. In the 2013 spending review we protected bus spending until the end of the 2015-16 year, despite the pressure on public finances and tough economic times. Almost £1 billion has been spent this year on funding concessionary travel entitlement. Four rounds of the Green Bus fund have provided £89 million to support the purchase of 1,240 new low-carbon buses, and some £300 million in funding for major bus projects has been allocated in the past year.
I am almost embarrassed, Mr Deputy Speaker, to go on dismantling, deconstructing and demolishing the Opposition’s arguments. [Interruption.] Well, I did say “almost”. This year has seen the devolution of £40 million in bus service operators grant funding, which is now paid directly to local authorities rather than bus operators. Again, I hoped the Opposition would have welcomed that because it gives communities more control. As the Chancellor announced this week, in a move welcomed by some Manchester MPs, an elected mayor will be created in Manchester with strong powers in the city region, and they will—one hopes—be able to effect the sort of positive change that the Mayor of London has done for this great city. That is proper devolution, not mere rhetoric, and the Secretary of State described it as a massive and positive step to allow for a more integrated, co-ordinated transport strategy in the region.
I take the point made by the Chair of the Transport Committee that we need to look more closely at the integration of services—as various reports by that Committee have argued—and we hope that Manchester will be just the first of the major cities to take advantage of a greater devolution of powers.
Investment in technology, improved ticketing, new infrastructure, and concessionary travel—giving passengers more of what they want.
Let me conclude this debate in the spirit of Christian pity with which I began—I signal my conclusion so that the excitement can build as I move to my exciting peroration. I know that opposition can be a testing business and that there is a temptation to exaggerate. I appreciate that Opposition parties facing failure are likely to become less reasonable, but I cannot believe that Labour could not do better than the meandering hyperbole of this motion. It is a kitchen sink motion that has cracked and needs plunging. As the Minister responsible for maritime skills week, allow me to throw the Opposition a lifeline: don’t go down with the ill-fated captain on a sinking ship.
Ms Rosie Winterton (Doncaster Central) (Lab)
claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).
Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.
Question agreed to.
Main Question accordingly put.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
I have received a report from the Tellers in the Aye Lobby from the earlier Division at 4.11 pm. They inform me that the number of those voting Aye was erroneously reported as 248 instead of 238. The Ayes were 238; the Noes were 287.