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Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
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The Minister for Veterans and People (Al Carns)
I thank you for allowing me to speak under your chairmanship, Sir Jeremy, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Jayne Kirkham) for securing this debate.
I begin by paying my deepest respects to the families, veterans and friends of all those who have tragically lost their lives to rare cancers in any way, shape or form. My hon. Friend’s great courage in sharing her story and her wider efforts to raise awareness of the issue, about which we have talked many times in the past, are both humbling from my perspective and inspiring to us all.
I also thank Members of the House and of devolved Parliaments who have engaged on this issue, from Scotland to Wales and back again, particularly my hon. Friend and the hon. Member for North Shropshire (Helen Morgan). Their voices are vital to raising awareness, ensuring that robust debate takes place today and that actions that will come from it. This debate has highlighted the significant contribution of those who serve, and not just those who serve but the whole family who serves with them.
Although in some cases there are differing views, the debate has also been a stark reminder that the health and safety and wellbeing of our personnel must remain at the very heart of everything we do in defence. Our people are the backbone of our armed forces. As an individual who served for 24 years, I can guarantee that. They are the guardians of our national security and the embodiment of all our values. Their health and safety and wellbeing are not just priorities; they are at the heart of all defence work.
I have stood shoulder to shoulder with many colleagues in times of both triumph and sad adversity and have spent thousands of hours on helicopters and on the Sea King when it was in service—yes, I am that old. I know the pride of service but also the weight of its demands. That is why I am personally committed to ensuring that every individual who serves the country is treated as a highly valued member of our defence family.
The Ministry of Defence has made significant strides over the past year to enhance the support we provide to our personnel. We are working tirelessly to modernise and to improve our environment in defence, so that everyone can truly thrive and reach their full potential, but we are certainly not complacent. We know that there is more to do and accept that there is further ground to cover. Defence must continue, however, to do everything it possibly can to prevent, protect and defend our personnel from illness or injury in whatever form. We owe it to our people, their families and their loved ones to do that.
Beyond policies and programmes, our commitment must be reflected in our actions and our attitudes. Hopefully, Members have seen that in the last 12 months. It is about fostering a culture of care and respect where every individual feels valued and supported, and it is about recognising that our people are not just sailors, soldiers or indeed airmen; they are fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, friends and neighbours. That is why in February, after discussions with my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth, we launched a comprehensive programme to test the engine exhaust emissions of all our in-service helicopter fleet. That work builds on several sampling surveys—I note they were sampling surveys—conducted on Sea King helicopters between 1999 and 2015. Those previous surveys were part of the Ministry of Defence’s long-standing commitment to our people, and to ensuring their safety at work. The surveys found no conclusive evidence to suggest that aircrew were subject to exposure levels above UK and international safety standards. I must emphasise that in most cases there is no evidence, in any way, shape or form, to suggest that aircraft today are causing issues with safety at work.
Jim Shannon
If the Minister does not mind my saying so, does he, and the Government, not have an obligation to ensure that all those who suspect they have blood cancer, or are worried that they may have it, are notified so that they are aware? They could then go and check, if they had not already done so. That at least should be done out of courtesy, good manners and respect, and for the protection of those who have served in uniform.
Al Carns
I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. Various programmes reach out to those serving, and those who are ex-serving, to highlight the risks of serving in defence. The lack of evidence linking the two together withholds us from being very specific but, generally, we push really hard for everyone in defence with any indication of an issue caused by service to get it seen to, and make sure that a claim goes forward.
The testing programme that we are putting in place is a proactive measure, reflecting our commitment to the highest standards of health and safety. It involves rigorous analysis of emissions from all operational helicopters, conducted in accordance with approved methodologies, ensuring that we have a clear understanding of any potential risks. We will not hesitate—and I will review this regularly—to take swift action if required, once that data is compiled.
This is about more than compliance: it is about meeting existing safety standards, and about trust. It is about demonstrating to our personnel that their safety is our unwavering priority. As part of that commitment, the independent medical expert group, as mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth, was asked to review not just the UK but worldwide medical literature on this issue. It concluded that there was no evidence of a medical, causal link between helicopter exhaust fumes and rare blood cancers.
But, as I have mentioned to my hon. Friend, although that provides an element of reassurance, we remain vigilant and committed to monitoring any emerging evidence. That is critical. With the Department, I have been exploring options for a broader holistic review of cancer diagnosis in service personnel, which should give us an iron-clad view of certain groups across defence. Throughout that process, we will keep personnel, their families and this House informed, but that is quite a comprehensive study.
Ayoub Khan
As a lawyer, I know there are always complexities around causal links, statistics and experts. There will always be a differing opinion. Does the Minister agree that anyone who has been part of the military should have available to them a legal team, funded by legal aid, to progress a claim—as opposed to a lawyer in a no win, no fee arrangement, which can bite into a substantial chunk of any compensation?
Al Carns
I will need to come back to the hon. Member on the specific legalities around that issue; I am not a lawyer. The war pension scheme and armed forces compensation scheme for individuals provide a route for compensation, in any way, shape or form. If there is a cause, as far as I am concerned there will absolutely be a redress or compensation scheme to support that, but I will write to the hon. Member on that issue. I want to be really clear on that last point. Although the IMEG’s findings provide some reassurance, I want to be absolutely clear that I have been exploring options for a broader, holistic review of the cancers. We talk about the simplicity of finding the data, but I want to give hon. Members the scale.
There are 2.1 million veterans in the UK. We do not track cancers post-service for those veterans. In some cases, we do not even know where those veterans are. We do not know where the pockets sit. We can have a rough view, and make a guess, but we do not have the statistical data. The Valour programme, which we launched a while back, should help build up a clear understanding of our veteran demographic and the issues that veterans face, and help address them in the most programmatic way.
At the moment, the data does not exist. We will continue to work with independent experts in both the UK and, importantly, the US, to closely monitor and understand any emerging evidence around aircraft exhaust fumes and cancers. Let me reiterate: we will continue to monitor the data. We will monitor this issue closely and act decisively if concerns are identified.
Anna Gelderd (South East Cornwall) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for his incredibly detailed and helpful responses. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Jayne Kirkham) for raising this important topic with such clarity and compassion. She has been such a strong champion for our armed forces and the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. Her words today carry real weight. Does the Minister agree that there is clearly further vital work to do to ensure that all those who have served can access the care and support that they so need?
Al Carns
I thank my hon. Friend for raising that point. That is why we brought the armed forces covenant into law just two weeks ago, which now increases the number of Government Departments that have a responsibility to ensure that no one is disadvantaged because of their service from four to 14. That is fantastic. It also enhances the support that we can give to those serving, their families and loved ones, the bereaved, and our veterans in general.
The safety of our people is non-negotiable. To the families who have campaigned so passionately to raise awareness of this important topic, I say this: “You have sparked a conversation. It has resulted in action. That action and detail will follow through in due course.” But we must make an active move now to collect the data, as broadly as possible.
Perran Moon
It is good news that the Minister has identified the requirement to collect data, but data collection can take a long time. Is he able to give any comfort on the timescale for building up the evidence base to determine whether there is a direct link one way or the other?
Al Carns
Unfortunately, we do not have a timescale at the moment. The scale of the task is hard to define. In terms of where the records sit, no one keeps records on veterans when they leave, apart from the NHS. Those records are held in different buckets all over the UK. It is going to take some time to pull that together and analyse it, and to work out whether there are pockets of very rare cancers from one part of defence, another part of defence or from other industries. Unfortunately, we just do not know. I will endeavour to get back to my hon. Friend once the scale of the task, which is gigantic, is conceptualised into time.
I come back to some points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth. On spreading awareness of a potential link, we work really hard to ensure that all service personnel have access to national cancer screening programmes. The MOD regularly runs health education campaigns—I hope that answers her earlier question—that encourage participation in national cancer screening programmes and raise awareness about cancers. Any veteran listening to this debate who has a cancer or a suspicion of cancer should please ensure they get it checked out and get the details recorded medically so that, if there may be a claim of any shape or form, that can be processed and they have the evidence, and it can get dealt with in the fastest and most efficient manner.
Educating GPs in places where there are clusters of personnel and veterans also goes back to data. There are clusters of veterans everywhere, ranging from 1,000 to 17,000, to 33,000 in Portsmouth. I will refrain from speaking about healthcare professionals any broader than the MOD in this forum, but I expect every defence medical service doctor to work in accordance with best practice, particularly National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidelines, to identify individuals with symptoms that could be caused by cancer and to arrange the appropriate speedy follow-up for a specialist referral.
As well as signposting for veterans, a screening scheme for blood cancers could be set up for those who may be at most risk; that point was mentioned earlier. The current medical advice from IMEG is clear, but I am mindful that there is also no UK screening programme for multiple myeloma or other rare cancers. I have read some of the medical advice, and it looks like some of those screening processes can cause a percentage of harm—I will need to look at that in a bit more detail. Any harm from screening must be outweighed by the benefits of screening. I go back to causation, and a focus on getting data on who needs to be screened and who does not. This is a deeply complex problem. I am not trying to confuse or confuddle the debate. We need to get to the bottom of this, but we need to do it the right way, and in the speediest, most efficient way.
The real-life replication of testing conditions was also mentioned. I want to reassure hon. Members that the testing we do on aircraft mirrors real life. In some cases, it is on the sampling equipment that is carried on the person, on the air crew and indeed the ground crew as well, because not just the pilots are involved, but the broader group. On whether they should still be advised to take sufficient precautions, I should say that I have spent a large proportion of my career in helicopters and stood in the exhaust fumes, which often used to heat us up in cold environments, which I would not recommend. I can attest to the quality and professionalism of the air crew. Indeed, the air crew as a whole are absolutely prepared with both PPE and understanding.
Al Carns
I thank my hon. Friend for the question. Several studies were conducted on the Sea King. In 2010 a study was conducted during operational flying in Afghanistan—I was out there at the same time and probably on them every now and again. It found notable levels of exposure to carbon monoxide and nitrogen monoxide. However, all exposures were below levels considered to be harmful to health.
In 2013, there was a study on search and rescue Sea Kings that found exhaust gases were below levels considered harmful to health. A 2014 study measured exposure to elements of carbon. That was found to be well below the German exposure standard; unfortunately, no UK standard existed at the time. The highest exposure was found to be at least less than a third of the concentration at which, based on the scientific knowledge, long-term repeated exposure could potentially cause ill health.
On the private companies and countries that still use these aircraft, the previous testing of the Sea King helicopters, which I just mentioned, did not have conclusive evidence that air crew were exposed to substances above UK-wide international limits—those German studies. Third party operators and countries may operate the aircraft differently and for different purposes, but I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth that they should ensure that they appropriately manage potential risks. I think we can help with that.
Although views differ, some of the evidence is over a long period of time. The subject group is huge, but it could be quite concentrated in some areas. I accept that we differ on some of the points today. I think we are united in our commitment to the health and safety of our armed forces and the protection of our people, our territories, our values, and indeed our interests, both at home and overseas. It is the most fundamental duty of defence. But that duty is only as strong as the people who uphold it. Our armed forces are not just a source of national pride; they are the lifeblood of our security, admired across the globe for their expertise, professionalism and unwavering commitment. Together we will ensure that the Ministry of Defence remains steadfast in its commitment to the health and safety of its people. Their safety is non-negotiable. Their wellbeing is not optional. It is an obligation.
I want to be clear that we are conducting testing now. We have looked at the reviews of previous testing, and there are options for understanding the broader cancer demographic among our veterans population. I have taken that on after the discussions with my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth. We will do everything in our power to ensure that everyone who wears the uniform of this country is protected, respected and supported, because they deserve nothing less.
Question put and agreed to.