Live Debate: Lords Chamber

Lords Chamber

Wednesday 21st May 2025

(began 5 months, 2 weeks ago)

Share Debate

Watch Live
Skip to latest contribution
This debate has concluded

15:07

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

First First oral

**** Possible New Speaker ****

First oral question. My Lord, I beg leave to ask the

15:08

Baroness Carberry of Muswell Hill (Labour)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lord, I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lords, I must first start by declaring my interest as an honorary captain in the Royal Navy. And I captain in the Royal Navy. And I would like to welcome you all, given we have got three questions today. The army recruiting contract will fully have recruitment by 2027, also sending an ambition of making a conditional offer of employment within 10 days and a provisional start date within 30 days, if the candidate desires it, in addition to scrapping over 100 outdated medical policies.

15:08

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

My Lords, there has been some improvement recently in retention rates, but since 1999, there have only been six years but a number of personnel joining the Armed Forces was higher than the nonbelieving. The chief of the defence staff reported last month plus the forces are getting smaller each month, to the tune of 200-300, there is low morale and low job satisfaction. Kamal noble friend explained what is being done to improve retention among service personnel?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I thank my noble friend for her question and wants to make it very clear iron ore of anybody who puts on a uniform and runs towards on a uniform and runs towards danger. Which is why we have to look after them. My Lords, this government inherited a recruitment and retention crisis from the last and retention crisis from the last government, which we did, noble Lords discussed this in your noble Lordships house many times, taking decisive measures in terms of decisive measures in terms of recruitment and retention.

With

15:09

regards to recent statistics, Armed Forces employment increased by 40% when compared to the previous 12 months, the army currently have a seven year high in application volumes, the Royal Navy yearly recruitment target has been exceeded and RAF applications are up by 34% but we still have a huge amount of work to do. Which is why specifically on the issue of retention, I think it is such an important step forward that we have introduced new retention teams which have exit interviews to work with have exit interviews to work with service personnel to see if we can help them overcome their reasons to help them overcome their reasons to leave.

My Lords, we spent a huge amount of money in training our Armed Forces personnel, it's important we make sure they stay.

15:10

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

Would the Minister consider a trial run of reopening the High Street recruiting centres? The Street recruiting centres? The closing of which in my view was a closing of which in my view was a disaster. They enable people who know the area in which they are know the area in which they are recruiting and the people they want to recruit much better than some remote service. Would the Minister consider giving it a trial, just to consider giving it a trial, just to see whether or not it still works? The noble Lord raises a very important point, and I will pass his

**** Possible New Speaker ****

views onto the Minister, and report back. 2027 is a long way off and the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

2027 is a long way off and the problem is urgent now, I understand problem is urgent now, I understand that between now and the full imitation of the contract, there is imitation of the contract, there is a period referred to as the immobilisation period. Can the noble Lady, the Minister, tell the House what that entails and what is going

**** Possible New Speaker ****

what that entails and what is going to be done to improve the situation this year and next year, rather than waiting for 2027? I thank the noble and gallant

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I thank the noble and gallant Lord both for his service and his ongoing opportunities, holding the government to account on this. With regards to the new contract, we regards to the new contract, we think it is an absolutely right that this change in process, my Lords, this is a significant change, single recruitment service operating on

15:11

recruitment service operating on behalf of the tri-services and the reserves, to make sure we are recruiting where we need to, is an important but a very significant change in the recruitment process. We need to make sure we get it right, so it doesn't lead to shortages. And so, in terms of what we are doing now, we are implementing some of the parts of the contract as quickly as we can, with regard to turnaround times. Noble Lords will be aware that one of the biggest challenges that the Armed Forces, that the army had come with the capital contract, was access to medical records, which were taking weeks to get.

We are now were taking weeks to get. We are now utilising AI, and that has gone from weeks to hours, which is speeding up the process.

15:12

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

The government inherited an MOD employing 63,000 civilians. Of course, many do vital and necessary work, but surely this is an absurd number, given the army itself is only 72,000 strong. Has the government made any international comparisons in this area and what plans has it got to tackle the bloated bureaucracy, particularly in procurement. The real life savings can then be diverted to improve the pay and conditions at the sharp end, including the Armed Forces themselves.

Perhaps the civilian excess could be drafted into the mooted Home guard, I am sure there will be many aspiring captain Mannerings in their ranks.

15:13

Lord West of Spithead (Labour)

- -

My Lords, one of the things in the strategic defence review is to explore the approach to recruiting, education, training and retaining the people need A1 defence. This includes the regular reserve, civil service, and industry first it is simply isn't always appropriate for people in uniform to do some of these jobs and we need to utilise those in uniform, where they can best serve. This will be published in the spring and by the spring I mean, my Lords, civil service spring.

So, it will be imminent. But

**** Possible New Speaker ****

while we are here, I would like to thank my noble friend, Robinson, on his work on the SDR. My Lords, 43 years ago at this

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lords, 43 years ago at this time I was under heavy air attack and was later sunk, today, 43 years ago. Our recruiting at that stage

15:13

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

was very buoyant. Thank goodness. And one has to say that post the war it became even more buoyant, but we have never had any shortage in this country, thank goodness, of young men and women, who are patriotic and willing to risk their all for our nation. It did seem though our recruiting system was trying to recruiting system was trying to actively stop recruiting those people. I'm very glad we have now got round that. Can I ask my noble friend, the Minister, to questions.

One is Alba doing something special to get the engineers that we show very short of -- So very short of, particularly the NATO command technicians that are crucial for fighting with our weapons system for the other, is the UK military flying training system now fit for purpose? Because it hasn't been for a few years.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I thank my noble friend, not just for the question but his incredible service. And he highlights exactly service. And he highlights exactly what he did to keep a country safe and why people want to join our Armed Forces and I am proud to be Armed Forces and I am proud to be his noble friend. With regard to the specific of his question, I have to specific of his question, I have to say I am disappointed because I had an update on ships which is what I an update on ships which is what I thought he was going to ask me.

Just for my noble friend, tomorrow, HMS Glasgow, new type XXVI, will

15:15

Baroness Goldie (Conservative)

- -

officially enter the Royal Navy. With regards to the specifics of his question, I will have to revert on the detail of some, but let me be very clear, with regards to how we are recruiting and ensuring that people can come through, especially in regards to engineers. We are looking at each pinch point individually go around with regards to engineers, a tri-service area engineers, we have actually offered a £30,000 incentive.

15:15

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

There is an urgent need to not only increase the number of persons in our Armed Forces but also to ensure that the people recruited are better allocated to roles appropriate to their skills. Sacco I understand will lead a consortium, of six delivery parties, the partners team circle, so how did the government propose to monitor progress by the individual team members to ensure the aggregate objective of both increased number is personnel and better alignment of

15:16

That is actually at the heart of the contract, making sure there is one clear oversight to ensure that where we have missing skills we are insuring people come. If you say I want to be a chef in the Navy, but actually we have too many vacancies of chefs in the RAF, we will actively encourage recruit to participate. For the first time to consider the RAF will stop for the first time, although this is candidate centred, we will be able to have an assessment across the whole of the Armed Forces about where our gaps are.

And if it fails, there are financial penalties. there are financial penalties.

15:17

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

I declare my interest as set out in the register. The Minister touched on reserves a couple of times on this brief session. Does the Minister agree with me that we need to look at a surge in reserves, not just volunteers, but also pay attention to our regular reserve and more, given the threats and risks we face as a nation. We really need to become very serious about mobilisation and think about our narrative for society both for defence, National Security and especially national resilience.

15:17

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

- -

The noble Lord makes an excellent point with regards to the strength and capacity of our reserves, they are a core part of our Armed Forces. It's important they are treated as such. Which is why they are also included in the single recruitment contact -- contract that will be coming forward. We are currently reviewing through the prism of strategic events review, how we recruit reserves and what additional support we need to put in place. That includes up to and including

**** Possible New Speaker ****

potential legislation. I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order

15:18

Baroness Berger (Labour)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Paper. We are committed to protecting children from online harms. Under children from online harms. Under the Online Safety Act, social media companies have a duty to remove illegal, misogynist and violent content from their platforms. From July, platforms will also need to protect children from harmful content, including hateful or abusive content, violent content and pornography. Ofcom is clear will use its strong enforcement powers for platforms failing to fulfil those duties and this reflects the priority the government places on these actions.

15:18

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

- -

The Netflix programme 'Adolescence' is a brutal exposition of the growing incel culture and mannose fear that is infecting too many hearts and minds. 45% of young men have a positive view of the misogynistic influence and conspiracists Andrew Tate, every 29 minutes there is a post about rape on a popular incel forum. This is leading to hatred of women and girls and serious violence. Listen closely to what my noble friend just said, is she able to set out with the government is doing to prevent this explosion of harmful misogynistic content? And in particular the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

radicalisation? The government recognises the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The government recognises the destructive role misogynistic attitudes including online misogynistic content can play in

15:19

Baroness Owen of Alderley Edge (Conservative)

- -

misogynistic content can play in society, including the impact it can have on the views and behaviours of men and boys. Tackling misogyny online and off-line is central to our mission to have violence against women and girls in a decade. Preventing harm in our communities and we will publish a new violence against women strategy this year. The government will also ensure schools address that and teach pupils about healthy relationships and consent and continue to ensure children and young people are at the heart of prevention and intervention programs and policies.

programs and policies.

15:20

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

- -

One of the key things of 'Adolescence' was... Recommendation to increase the time limits victims have to seek justice when intimate images have been non-consensually shared from six months. Can I ask the Minister to explain the government's reasoning for rejecting a change that would help so many

**** Possible New Speaker ****

victims? The government welcomed the women

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The government welcomed the women and equality committee's report in tackling non-sensual intimate image tackling non-sensual intimate image abuse and the issues they raised are a priority for us. This is why we

15:21

Baroness Brinton (Liberal Democrat)

- -

have already taken action by strengthening the Online Safety Act and introducing further offences as part of the Crime and Policing Bill and the Data (Use and Access) Bill. I pay tribute to the noble Lady for all the work she has done in helping us to strengthen that legislation. We will not hesitate to go further, protect them in and girls online and technology facilitated abuse will be a key component of the upcoming cross government violence against women and girls strategy.

15:21

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

- -

The Online Safety Act... Sorry. young people at schools and at the advice on keeping phones out of schools is much welcomed. But surely we also need to ensure that parents and carers have all the information and skills that they need to navigate and guide their children. Can I ask the Minister of this government is planning a comprehensive campaign to alert them to online harms and ensure that parents have the right digital skills to be able to access information and support for their children?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I thank her for that point, it's an important point. Media literacy in all its forms is absolutely in all its forms is absolutely important for parents and teachers and young people, to make sure that and young people, to make sure that we do create a respectful online environment. Ofcom have specific media literacy duties which they will carry out. Their media literacy will carry out. Their media literacy strategy focus -- prioritises to address online misogyny. Including research to understand how such research to understand how such harmful behaviour occurs.

As set out in that strategy come off, expects their work to directly target teenage boys and young men, but the teenage boys and young men, but the noble Lady is right, it goes further than that, we have to educate than that, we have to educate parents as well to know and to look at what their children are accessing. There is a huge job of accessing. There is a huge job of work to be done on education and the wider sphere. Schools are playing their part in this now as she their part in this now as she acknowledged, we have far more to do in all aspects of government are

**** Possible New Speaker ****

addressing this issues. The Online Safety Act allows Ofcom to look at how much children Ofcom to look at how much children are using social media, yet the new children's code from Ofcom does not mention addiction. What is the government doing to deal with the problem of screen addiction amongst our children?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The noble Lord will know that schools already have a policy or are expected by the department of education to a policy to ensure that education to a policy to ensure that children don't have access to phones in schools. That is a clear policy the government is keen to reiterate. What we are talking about here is What we are talking about here is what children do outside of school environment. The children's code of environment. The children's code of practise from July will provide much greater reassurance and protection greater reassurance and protection for children.

Services will be expected to provide age-appropriate

15:24

Viscount Camrose (Conservative)

- -

expected to provide age-appropriate experiences online by protecting children from bullying, violent content, abuse and misogynistic content. In other words, there will be much more forceful regulation to specifically protect children. This will be... We will continue to monitor the codes of practise, but monitor the codes of practise, but there is very specific new powers under that code that are coming into effect in July and we want to see how that impacts.

15:24

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

- -

I very much hope the government is actively tracking and measuring the effects of school zone policies on mobile phone use during the school day. If so, what conclusions can be drawn about the wisdom of an outright ban? If they aren't

**** Possible New Speaker ****

tracking this information, why not? The department of education's

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The department of education's mobile phone in school guidance is clear that schools should prohibit clear that schools should prohibit the use of devices with smart technology throughout the school day, including during lessons, day, including during lessons, transitions and breaks. The government expects all schools to take steps in line with that. Beyond take steps in line with that. Beyond that, my own department has commissioned a piece of research to look at young people's use of social

15:25

Baroness Bull (Crossbench)

- -

look at young people's use of social media and we are looking throughout the day what that accesses and the outcome of the research is due very soon. We will learn the lessons with that. The fact is that up until now the evidence hasn't been as clear- cut as we would like. We are hoping to learn on an international basis of what we can learn in terms of protecting young people throughout the day and we will apply those

**** Possible New Speaker ****

assessed. 'Adolescence' is probably the latest in a long line of TV dramas

15:26

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

- -

that has the effect of changing societal attitudes. You can think of Kathy come home, queers spoke, Mr Bates versus the post office and breathtaking. One of the ways in which young people can be encouraged to get off their mobile phones is by engaging more in drama, but we're seeing drama and arts being taken out of the curriculum. Does she agree there is a value in these dramas, not just in raising awareness and changing attitudes, but in helping young people to explore themselves, their identity

**** Possible New Speaker ****

and communicate in ways that don't involve these devices? She makes a very important point

**** Possible New Speaker ****

She makes a very important point that we need to provide alternatives to online act entities to young to online act entities to young people. She is right about theatre and drama. Also, sports activities,

15:27

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (Green Party)

- -

and drama. Also, sports activities, which can also help with that. The Department for Education are conducting a curriculum review at the moment and I know that this is one of their priorities to make sure children genuinely have a balanced curriculum and a wholesome curriculum that deals with all of those issues. It's not just academic that deals with children's that deals with children's development in the round, which is what the noble Lady is saying.

15:27

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)

- -

Finland is known as a global leader in education in schools that focuses on critical thinking and ability to absorb online information in regard it sceptically when needed. With the noble Lady the Minister agree with me that that is something we need to see much more of in British schools? But we are presenting teachers with a real challenge when we have so many other subjects to focus on teaching to the test, rote learning, things you have to regurgitate.

We really have to think about the whole way in which our schools operate so it's focused on critical thinking.

15:28

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

Makes a good point, it goes back to balanced curriculum. In the past the curriculum has been too focused on a specific set of goals and not about broader issues. Having healthy relationships as part of teaching and learning at school. That is something we need to do and we are strengthening the provisions of that within the curriculum and the department of education will also provide guidance to help young people develop those skills, which all young people need to be able to all young people need to be able to

**** Possible New Speaker ****

navigate this complex modern world. I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Paper. Under the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023, the commission is responsible for Troubles related investigations for the period 1966 investigations for the period 1966 to 1998. Any alleged criminality which took place after 10 April 1988

15:29

Lord Elliott of Ballinamallard (Ulster Unionist Party)

- -

which took place after 10 April 1988 -- 1998, remains a matter for P and SI. The UK government does not, on National Archives releases or releases relating to previous governments. I would however like to take this opportunity to pay thanks to my noble friend at that time, as well as all secretaries of State for Northern Ireland for their role in the incredibly challenging work helping to maintain peace as well as delivering and implementing the Good Friday Agreement, including the effective decommissioning of weapons.

We owe them an immense debt of gratitude and should never forget

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the context under which they were operating. Last year the conservative

15:29

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Last year the conservative government brought the Northern Ireland leg is a bill to this House. Ireland leg is a bill to this House. -- Legacy bill. I didn't support it, but at least they had the courage and decency to bring it to this House for a debate and for voting instead of having a de facto amnesty. I did say at the time they warned by Minister Blair of the consequences of having Sinn Fein linked to a terrorist organisation government.

I asked the Minister at that time because of the individuals involved in that meeting, does she accept that Jerry Adams was a senior accept that Jerry Adams was a senior

15:30

Lord Reid of Cardowan (Labour)

- -

My Lords, the noble Lord will be aware I cannot comment on anything to do with the archive, and as to the matter he raises, there is currently a matter of court

**** Possible New Speaker ****

proceedings. Thank you, and can I thank the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you, and can I thank the noble Lord for his helpful question, noble Lord for his helpful question, which allows me to reply. Would my noble friend, the Minister, please noble friend, the Minister, please confirm to the House if it needs confirmation that the conduct of confirmation that the conduct of investigations and prosecutions in Northern Ireland, as in the rest of the United Kingdom, was exclusively under the control of the police service, the prosecution service, service, the prosecution service,

15:31

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

service, the prosecution service, and the courts. And that the ministers had no locus, had no power, no desire to interfere with that process. Will she accept that the transition from water peace is -- From war to peace is not always easy and what ministers didn't do, accompanied by the work of people like the noble Lord Trimble, and John Hume, was to persevere in a political peace process, whatever the odds, and that is resulted in benefits for all people in Northern Ireland.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My noble friend, as ever, makes a series of excellent points. He is absolutely right, and he knows absolutely right, and he knows better than I, as someone who served better than I, as someone who served country in government in numerous roles at Cabinet level, the police have complete operational have complete operational independent. My Lords, I think we know everybody who operated as

15:32

Lord Robathan (Conservative)

- -

know everybody who operated as politicians, both in terms, both in Northern Ireland and UK government, who worked so hard in the most difficult circumstances to deliver peace, a huge debt of gratitude. Every day, we have to live up to the promise of the Belfast good Friday agreement and the spirit of the Stormont House Agreement to make sure the people of Northern Ireland and the people of Great Britain have the piece that was so difficultly earned.

15:33

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

Gerry Adams, the Minister may know, is apparently suing the BBC for accusing him of being, not sure how they put it, not necessarily on the side of the good. Could the Minister therefore helped the BBC in its defence, particularly in the case of Jean, dragged from her home in front of young children, murdered by IRA gangs, and could she look at how much we could help the BBC against Gerry Adams, and particularly what he was doing with that case. that case.

15:33

Baroness O'Loan (Crossbench)

- -

The noble Lord suffer many years in the other place and will be aware that I cannot comment on ongoing court proceedings, but he does raise a very important case, and every time they are raised, we need to remember the families and all the victims of the troubles in Northern victims of the troubles in Northern Ireland, 3005 people lost their lives, families were forever destroyed and many people were hurt, there is a responsibly they are all of us to make sure they get justice when they can, but they get to find their truth as well.

15:33

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

Given the fact the noble Baroness, the Minister, is quite correct in saying the ICR cannot deal with cases post-1998, and given the fact that the PSNI budget has been so seriously reduced, it is now operating at 75% of the officers it should have, Canon noble Baroness, the Minister, commit to the development of ring fenced funding to enable the PSNI to deal with the cases, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Elliott, in order that

**** Possible New Speaker ****

justice may be done? My Lords, one of the issues

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lords, one of the issues associated with having storm on top associated with having storm on top How the finances are located and spend is a matter for them, and that

15:35

Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-affiliated)

- -

spend is a matter for them, and that includes the PSNI budget, but the noble Baroness will be aware that the Spending Review, we increase additional security funding for the PSNI, for this financial year by 37.8 million, in additional security funding, the noble Baroness will be aware there are ongoing conversations between DNI and the Northern Ireland Executive about how we can keep working together. Part of this is a question for the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Northern Ireland Executive. My Lords, firstly, can I support the Baroness's question and point the Baroness's question and point out the noble Lady, the Minister, of course there is national security issues which remain the purview of our national government, and dealing with funding. But can I congratulate the noble Lady on the many strings the noble Lady on the many strings to her bows this afternoon, but to say to her that despite desperate attempts to rewrite the history of Northern Ireland during what was

15:35

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

Northern Ireland during what was euphemistically called the Troubles, I know that the noble Lady will agree with me that Northern Ireland society to did not break down during the campaign a chronology, not a war, the campaign of criminality, because of that, the line was held by our security forces and the security services I have to say, and I am proud to be a daughter of the RUC, but can I say to her, given all of that, can I ask the noble Lady, can she give us an update on the stage that the Minister of defence is at, with the inquest review, because I understand the Ministry of Defence must take judiciary proceedings, could you give us an update on that?

15:36

Baroness Suttie (Liberal Democrat)

- -

The noble Baroness raises a really important point which I know is of huge concern to the veterans community, both those that served in off banner and more broadly, with regards to the specifics of the inquest, the veterans involved in the inquest, undersecretary of state of defence have done a review of the of defence have done a review of the findings, in the context of the incident, the MoD is also funding the veterans in question, to seek the judicial review and providing the judicial review and providing them with welfare support.

15:37

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

Does the Minister agree that trust is an essential element in the process of dealing with the pass of Northern Ireland and she recognised that the current lack of legal certainty regarding the repeal of the legacy axis adding to a lack of the legacy axis adding to a lack of trust, will she confirm, therefore, that it is still the government's intention to bring forward new primary legislation on legacy issues, during this parliamentary session?

15:37

The noble Lady is absolutely right, everything about delivery of the Belfast good Friday agreement, and about ongoing peace in Northern Ireland, is about trust and bringing people together. With regards to forthcoming legislation, we were clearing our manifesto, we have been clear by having it referenced anything King's Speech. This government is committed to bringing forward the timing of the forward the timing of the legislation. But noble Lords will appreciate that, as my Chief Whip is sitting 2 feet away from me, I am going to confirm when parliamentary going to confirm when parliamentary time allows.

15:38

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

When dealing with the here and now, can the Minister confirm the governor's decision to reopen at the legacy inquests, alongside the new legacy commission, inevitably risks elderly veterans being dragged back into courts, over events that happened as far back as half a century ago, yes or no? And when it was said this week that UK and Irish government are working strenuously on these issues, can she confirm this will include full Irish cooperation, with the legacy commission on information recovery?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lords, the noble Lord knows the answer to the first question and with regards to conversations with with regards to conversations with the Irish government, the noble Lord will be aware that we are working very closely with the Irish very closely with the Irish government, as the co-guarantors of the Good Friday Agreement, and at the recent BWI... Sorry, BII litter CG, have discussed what is taking CG, have discussed what is taking place, as well as read recent place, as well as read recent substantial discussions and agreements, consisting of the agreements, consisting of the possibles of the Stormont good...

The Stormont House Agreement, I think we can see part of that change through the memorandum of understanding issue to the Oma bombing inquiry, which the government views as a significant government views as a significant step forward, and we look forward to further enhancements in this regard, for example legislation and cooperation.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

cooperation. Fourth oral question, not Bishop.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper. Paper. The The cyber The cyber threat The cyber threat to The cyber threat to the The cyber threat to the UK The cyber threat to the UK is significant and growing. Recent attacks on retailers and the legal aid agency are just the latest examples of this, the government is introducing the cybersecurity and resilient spell, to ensure critical infrastructure and additional services that UK citizens and businesses rely on our secure.

We are also working tirelessly to improve the cyber resilience of government systems. Providing more support and services from the centre, like the governments hibernation centre, which brings forward and brings together cyber

**** Possible New Speaker ****

defenders to share data and respond more effectively to cyber threats, vulnerabilities and institutes. My Lords, the recent Asaba UK conference reported that the number of cyber attacks had doubled in the of cyber attacks had doubled in the past year. This is costing tens, indeed, hundreds of millions of pounds to businesses and is making people very nervous about their personal data. It is having a huge effect right across society. I effect right across society. I welcome the fact there is a new bill coming in, but we cannot wait for that.

What is the national cyber that. What is the national cyber security centre doing now to review its strategy is to be proactively its strategy is to be proactively getting businesses to sign up? A relatively small number have signed up. And do they have sufficient staff to deal with this growing

**** Possible New Speaker ****

problem? The noble Lord makes a very timely intervention, given recent timely intervention, given recent events. The reality is, my Lords, sorry, The Right Reverend Prelate sorry, The Right Reverend Prelate makes a very important point. Our online and off-line worlds are merging, and there is no clear differential anymore, and this is a different frontier in crime. This is involving an increasingly sophisticated threat and we need to make sure we are ahead of it, candidly, as the report earlier this year said, government cybersecurity practices are not yet where they need to be, but we are investing.

Because of the report, the Chancellor of Lancaster has been clear where going to bring forward a new cybersecurity strategy this year, and the NCSC is making sure year, and the NCSC is making sure Are available. And I would urge Are available. And I would urge noble Lords to look at their website, specifically what tools are available through the cyber essentials system. Those companies that sign up for cyber essentials that sign up for cyber essentials controls are 80% less than likely to make a claim on Cyprus insurance I declare my technology interest as set out in the register.

Can I ask the Minister to confirm whether the government has any plans to update the computer misuse act. Mainly to protect our cybersecurity professionals researchers that do so professionals researchers that do so much to keep us all safe. The act is over 35 years old, will the over 35 years old, will the government be taking the opportunity of the cybersecurity resilient spell, to insert clauses to this effect. effect.

15:42

Lord Harris of Haringey (Labour)

- -

My Lords, when parliamentary time allows, there will be a cybersecurity and resilient spell, and I am sure -- Resilience bill and I'm sure that opportunity will be discussing this in detail and I look forward to doing so. I refer to my interest in the register as chairman of the National parish commission, and like the noble Baroness, Baroness Foster, I congratulate my noble friend on her ubiquity in terms of policy today. But, could I ask, there has been a sequence of very bad cyber attacks.

And whilst I am sure that Marks & Spencer's and the cooperative so on take very carefully the cybersecurity expectations, it is cybersecurity expectations, it is very, very difficult for any very, very difficult for any organisation to withstand what may be estate inspired state-sponsored or state-supported attack. And I do not know and I am sure she will not be able to comment on whether these be able to comment on whether these were such cases. Therefore, is it important that the national cybersecurity centre provides enough guidance and encouragement to guidance and encouragement to support businesses in recovering after they have been hacked? In providing them with, if you like, providing them with, if you like, the Plan B for recovery, and dealing with the consequences of a successful attack.

15:44

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

I thank my noble friend for the question he is right, there is a clear role here for the National Cybersecurity Centre. Drawing on attack, he is right, I cannot talk on the details of the current attack, but both drawing and afterwards, as they work with afterwards, as they work with experts what I would like to do however is reissue noble Lords that the NCSC has a trust group which is the NCSC has a trust group which is sector specific. Where 60 of the CEOs in the retail sector have come CEOs in the retail sector have come together, both drawing the attack, and afterwards, to make sure that best practice was being shared and best practice was being shared and information was being shared in real time, so that other retailers and organisations can make sure they were not going to be subject to similar attacks.

similar attacks. the Minister will be aware of the report in January on government systems, which says, quote, " Departments have significant gaps in the system, controls that are fundamental to their cyber resilience. The resilience of the hundreds of ageing legacy IT systems department still use is likely to be worse." Accepting that the government has inherited a legacy of years of underinvestment in Whitehall IT, and accepting also that the cost of successful cyber attacks is very high, does it not make sense to raise the level of

**** Possible New Speaker ****

investment in replacing some of these legacies as rapidly as possible? The noble Lord raises a very

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The noble Lord raises a very important point. The NAO report was quite clear in their criticisms of

15:45

Baroness Finn (Conservative)

- -

quite clear in their criticisms of our structures and we accept every recommendation of the report. And are working our way through them, which is why we will be bringing forward a government cybersecurity strategy this year, building on the work of the previous government, but to make sure we have a fit for purpose going forward. With regard to the updating of IT, I just live through the updating of the criticism in the Cabinet Office. And I would suggest that we take a little bit of time with the next little bit of time with the next

15:46

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

Cross bench.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Since last year, media reports confirmed that the Gove.uk login confirmed that the Gove.uk login service have been adopted by 50 government services and was expected to reach 100 within the year. to reach 100 within the year. However, computer weekly has since reported on serious cyber security vulnerabilities. Given that one vulnerabilities. Given that one login process is biometric data from millions of citizens, why is the government refused to publish its data protection impact assessment and can the noble Baroness the

15:47

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Minister confirm whether the rollout will continue on that timescale? She raises a series of very

15:47

Baroness Wheatcroft (Crossbench)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

She raises a series of very important questions. Given the detail of them, I will write to her detail of them, I will write to her to make sure I am speaking to relevant officials so she gets the answers she seeks. With regard to the one login, over 5 million people are currently using the login to prove their identity. The ID check Has over 6 1/2 million downloads and a 4.7% rating on all app stores, but that does suggest if there are questions to answer will make sure we get her the answers.

we get her the answers.

15:47

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

Could the noble Lady the Minister tell the House what the advice from government is to companies that are facing not just a cyber attack, but a ransom demand? Whether that advice tallies with the advice and instructions from their insurers and how much money companies paid out in ransom demands so far.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Ran somewhere -- the threat of ran somewhere and ransoms is clearly ran somewhere and ransoms is clearly an appalling crime undertaken by cyber criminals. I can only really cyber criminals. I can only really speak for the public service in the government, the Home Office have concluded a consultation on world concluded a consultation on world leading proposals to strike at the heart of the ran somewhere business model, cutting off their funding and model, cutting off their funding and protecting UK businesses by deterring the threats.

The government's position is that public funds will not be used to pay ransom demands by cybercriminals. This is

15:48

Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford (Conservative)

- -

demands by cybercriminals. This is however an important issue which is why last year they ran a global corporation to disrupt one of the most dangerous cybercriminals in the world. In February, they sanctioned six Russian individuals for facilitating crippling attacks. This is at the front tier of the cyber threat, but from the governments perspective we highly recommend that perspective we highly recommend that people do not pay ransoms. There is no guarantee their data hasn't already been sold on. already been sold on.

15:49

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

... Speaking it cyber UK conference this month, he stated that Britain has suffered double the number of serious cyber attacks in recent months compared to the same time last year. Nevertheless, SMEs have been issued -- 35,000 SMEs have been issued with cyber essential certificates in the last year. In the Minister say what steps have been taken to increase up take him otherwise SMEs will be critically vulnerable?

15:49

Business of the House

She gives me the opportunity to promote stop the fraud, which is an active campaign that promotes the work of the NCSC, but also targets direct organisations, the next iteration of their campaign is for

**** Possible New Speaker ****

targeting SMEs and micro-businesses to make sure they are aware of the tools available to them. That concludes Oral Questions for

**** Possible New Speaker ****

today. Before colleagues leave the chamber, I am delighted to update chamber, I am delighted to update the House on the plan for recesses the House on the plan for recesses up until Whitson of next year. I have only announced the planned dates for recesses until January dates for recesses until January 2026. Have ever, these in the new dates can change subject to the progress of business. To save noble lords rushing for their diaries, I will email them to all peers and place a copy in the Royal gallery immediately after I finished speaking.

Without further delay I am speaking. Without further delay I am pleased to... To adjourn the House pleased to... To adjourn the House in early 2026 as follows. For February recess we will rise at the conclusion of business on Thursday, 12 February and return on Monday, 23 12 February and return on Monday, 23 February. Easter recess will start at the end of business on Thursday, 26 March and the House returning on Monday, 13 April. Finally, I would expect Whitson recess to start at the end of business on Thursday, 21 May in the House to return on Monday, 1 June.

I hope that assists colleagues in planning the year ahead, I will always endeavour to keep the House updated with dates as soon as possible and communicate any changes in the same way. With that, I would like to thank all staff and colleagues across the House for their hard work. I wish everyone a

**** Possible New Speaker ****

restful recess with family and friends. With that good news, any members

**** Possible New Speaker ****

With that good news, any members who wish to leave the chamber can do

15:52

Baroness Finn (Conservative)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Questions Questions on Questions on a Questions on a statement Questions on a statement made Questions on a statement made in

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Questions on a statement made in the House of Commons on Wednesday 14th of May on the government's response to the infected blood

**** Possible New Speaker ****

inquiry. I think the noble Baroness the Minister for responding to the Minister for responding to the statement made in the other place on statement made in the other place on almost to the day of the anniversary of the statement and apology made on behalf of the government by my right honourable friend, the former Prime honourable friend, the former Prime Minister. The infected blood scandal is one of the most serious failures of the British state in recent years. It is caused immense harm for tens of thousands of people and their families.

The heartbreaking their families. The heartbreaking film shown on ITV last night, which depicted the terrible deeds at the college in Hampshire in the 1970s college in Hampshire in the 1970s and 80s reminds us that the story is not yet over for so many living in the aftermath of such enormous the aftermath of such enormous negligence. As I mentioned when we negligence. As I mentioned when we debated the infected blood regulations earlier this year, and is 2022 report, Sir Robert Francis said sadly many of the affected community fear that they have not long to live will stop that is why urgent action is needed and we are reunited -- United across your Lordships House in our conviction that the victims of this appalling scandal deserve justice.

As noble lords across the House are aware, when we were in government we made significant progress towards justice for victims of the infected blood scandal. I pay tribute to my noble friend, Baroness May of Maidenhead for her role in establishing statutory inquiry. I should also put on record once again our thanks to both Sir Brian Lange staff and to Robert Francis for all their work as well as all the tireless campaigners, including the noble Baroness -- Baroness is. We welcome the fact that the government have picked up where the conservative government left off and are continuing work to deliver justice for the victims.

I welcome the announcement that Sir Robert Francis who has done so much to design and deliver the compensation scheme will be continuing in his role for further 18 months. We know there is nothing you can do that will truly heal the wounds that are felt by all those affected, but it is vital we do what we can to address the pain and anger felt by those in the infected and affected communities. I also welcome the funding announced for charities that provide much- needed patient advocacy services.

As time passes, we know that fewer and fewer of the victims will be with us. For them, justice delayed is justice denied and that is why was support the government's work to speed up the pace of compensation. The noble Baroness the Minister will not be surprised to hear that I have a few questions on the statement. In the other place, ministers said they expect to see a significant increase in the pace of payments. Can the noble Baroness the Minister please explain what the government's actual expectations are of this increase in the pace of payments and what does this mean in practical terms for victims? Ministers have also said that a new surveillance registry will be set up for the monitoring of liver damage for people who are infected with hepatitis C.

I very much welcome this, but again for victims, time is of the essence. Can the Minister please confirm when the service will be established? Finally, I welcome the fact that the government have accepted the inquiry's recommendations either in inquiry's recommendations either in full or in principle. However, I note the statement that some recommendations will depend on future spending decisions by the Department of health and social Department of health and social care. It is obviously important that the expectation of those applying for compensation for the scheme are managed clearly and transparency at managed clearly and transparency at the outset.

Can the Minister say which areas of the recommendations which areas of the recommendations will be affected by the departmental spendings to which she has referred spendings to which she has referred and would she undertake to report the House by an appropriate means when the spending decisions have in fact been made?

15:57

Baroness Brinton (Liberal Democrat)

- -

I also think the Minister for repeating the statement in your Lordships House -- thank. I want to start by thinking about all those infected and affected who a year ago yesterday heard Sir Brian speak at the launch of the inquiry report. For those of us there that day, it was a joyful day when people really thought that things were going to change and happen at pace. The last government promised rapid action and the New Labour government also promised and continues to promise in this statement moving at pace.

Indeed, the statement uses this exact phrase. But any conversation with any of the infected and affected leave you in absolutely no doubt that from their perspective, progress is still glacial. 77 claimants have been paid out of a possible 140,000, of whom over 3,000 have already died. Only 475 claimants have been invited to claim so far. No affected claimants have even got that far because that scheme does not open to claimants until later this year. If this is complicated, and we know that it is, why hasn't the government invested more resources into the compensation body into processing claims? And above all, not repeating work that's been done under previous schemes.

As with many of the other current compensation schemes, including the post office horizon scheme and the Windrush scheme, this scheme is floundering. It's fascinating, whenever I talk to people from one of these schemes, they always cite how well the others are going. But all of them feel that everything is far too slow. It matters because claimants are dying. Probably every week. Some claimants were now infected nearly 50 years ago and Sir Brian's statement on 13 May after taking two extra days of evidence earlier in May this year, is very clear.

Action to speed up as needed now. -- Is needed. Instead of a random system, including deferring all affected claimants until after the infected claimants have been sorted, is not acceptable. He reposes a prioritisation scheme helpfully with worked examples. Will the government except that prioritisation is now necessary? I have raised before the issue of an affected claimant who some months ago, the time we looked at the regulation back in February, was given less than a year to live. Under the current arrangements, there is not a hope that she will even have started the process before she dies.

This is unacceptable. Will the government ensure that all who have a limited time to live, and I include within that Sir Brian's definition of those over 70, and there are other detailed definitions as well, will have their claims started sooner rather than later? There is also a difficulty with some of the routes. Those who were just infected with HIV, but also probably hepatitis is welcome have a simple three-step route. I am grateful to the survivor who sent me 283 pages demonstrating the processes.

The HIV-1 is very clear, but for someone infected with hepatitis alone, it is essentially a horribly multifaceted process that takes a whole page of a three full of boxes. Will I see BA prioritise the simplification of this process, because that is what is taking the time. I also watched the documentary last night. I met some of those students in the mid to late 70s with drama groups. I worked with them. Talking to survivors of those, most of the young men I spoke to her dad.

-- Are dead. That's what we need to remember. They and their families have a difficult life. Their families are still waiting. These are the affected people we've been talking about. The statement talks about listening to the moving testimony of those impacted. Feeling pain on their behalf is no longer pain on their behalf is no longer Yesterday, a letter was written by the various survivor groups to number seven, which as they said, the inquiry as it reconvened underground now, the consumer -- Voice was absent.

It contains fundamental flaws which could and would have been foreseen. Will the would have been foreseen. Will the government construct it to make sure those are dealt with? Moving on briefly to the government response last week to the Infected Blood Inquiry report. Which has only taken a year to be published. Firstly, the duty of candour. On page 31, the government says it is too complex to enforce a duty of candour, and I'm grateful to have the government have a priority of the duty of Condor in its manifesto but there is still no timeline on when the Hillsborough law will appear.

But those countries who have either got a duty of candour over dutiful reporting of safeguarding have a strong law, good training, absolutely changes the culture of those organisations. Australia in particular, it works really well. Can I encourage the government to look at that. Secondly, there are two recommendations on the defensive culture in the NHS and Civil Service that are only accepted in principle. Repeated failures in the Post Office Horizon scheme, the Windrush scheme, from the Home Office, demonstrates that actually, we have to get rid of the defensive culture, and it's a shame that frankly this has only been recognised as happening in principle and that the scale for it to happen has no timetable attached to it.

The recommendations relating to training and effective transfusion service, the government says it is a complex set of sub- recommendations by Sir Brian. But it says there needs to be a joined up approach across full services. This is in principle again, no timeline, mainly because no funding has been identified. My Lords, have we not learnt from Sir Brian's inquiry report that we have to do this to stop future mistakes? The patient voice, I echo Lady Finn's comments about the gratitude for funding about the IB groups, that's important.

But the government has important. But the government has not accepted, in principle, the clinical audit. The Welsh and Scottish government have, but our government and the NIA have not done government and the NIA have not done so. Please can these be done at so. Please can these be done at pace? It is ridiculous to do it on its own. My Lords, in summary, things need to change and the need to change fast. And I recognise that to change fast. And I recognise that the compensation body is an arm's- length body, but please, will the government provide funding to upscale things so that compensations can start in earnest? can start in earnest?

16:04

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

I apologise to the noble Baroness, she will be definitely next. My Lords, I am grateful to the contributions of the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton and Lady Finn, this tone of this discussion so far has been one of sensitivity and cooperation and it is your Lordships house at its best. I would like to pay to be to the work of many noble Lords across the House. Parliamentary scrutiny has played an important role in holding the government to account on the progress it has made in responding to the inquiry.

And I know your Lordships house will continue to push forward the implementation of the inquiry's recommendations. Specifically, I would like to thank the noble Baroness, and the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, for their ongoing engagement. I would also like to put on record my personal thanks to the noble Baroness is Lady Thornton and Lady Finlay, who have been incredibly helpful in my own journey in this area. My Lords, we are truly lucky to have such tenacious women in your Lordships house. The inquiry's report revealed the scale of devastation caused by the infected blood scandal, lives were shattered, families torn apart, all that repeatable to the collective and avoidable -- Attributable, to the collective and avoidable errors of the state.

I have placed in a number of occasions that this government is listening and we are hearing. And will not seek to repeat the mistakes of the past. I hope the progress of the government's response asset out for -- As sent out has provided some assurance and we are acting, my deepest apologies to those impacted in this heartbreaking scandal, as my right honourable friend, the Prime Minister has stated, and my right honourable friend, the Minister for the Cabinet Office.

I would like to turn out of some of the specific points and questions noble Lords have raised. I apologise if I am unable to cover... I said noble Lords, noble Baronesses, sorry. To cover, or if I've misunderstood any points made, I will reflect on Hansard and rights to all members who put us about in today's debate. With regard to the speed of the compensation delivery, I think we all know this is at the heart of many of the issues highlighted over the last week in media, separate the heartbreaking documentary shown last night.

I know the speed of compensation payments as a primary area of concern, both the noble Lords across this House, and in the infected blood community, more widely. Earlier this month, confirmed more plans to help hundreds of people start their claims every week. While the roll- out of the scheme is an operational decision, as an independent body, the government is supportive of the ambition, and stands ready to assist to speed up payments. With regard, I am sure they have the resources to expedite their findings.

If they do not, I will speak to officials today and find out what else we need to do. As the Minister for the Cabinet Office noted for the inquiry last week, the government will consider the concerns of the inquiry at the infected blood community are continuing to rise. The government's primary focus is ensuring compensation payments are made as quickly as possible. And we are aware that that leads to some challenges with parts of the implementation. With regards to the issue of the duty of candour, I recognise the concerns around the delay of introducing the forthcoming Hillsborough law bill to Parliament, I want to ensure your Lordships house that the government remains fully committed to legislating in this area, the government has been consulting widely with interested parties for some we want to get this right, and is working to ensure the best version of a Hillsborough law bill is drafted ahead of its introduction.

I look forward to debating the contents of the bill with noble Lords when it comes in front of us. With regards to other points, I want to reiterate the point that I have just made on the ongoing implementation of the inquiry's recommendations. We are committed to future transparency and accountability in this area and we will be publishing the government's progress via publicly accessible born in due course. The dashboard will be updated regularly as progress is made. My Lords, we started by highlighting the documentary that was shown last night.

There are too many heartbreaking stories associated with the infected blood scandal, in fact, every story is heartbreaking. But what happened at Treloar's was utterly abhorrent, I encourage all noble Lords across the House to watch the documentary, and I pay tribute to those in the community who courageously told their stories again. To bring this documentary to our screens. The government is committed to remembering the victims of the scandal through memorials, both specifically at Treloar's and in the UK, and we are working through the process of remembering them in a way that is appropriate and fitting.

With regards to the extension of Sir Robert Francis's contract, I am pleased that he will be continuing in his role, he has been involved in the creation of the process, and we have a shared priority to deliver compensation as quickly as possible. With regards to monitoring liver damage, we absolutely recognise the importance of monitoring liver damage for those who have been infected and will accept the majority of the sub recommendations in full. Our approach will balance the implementation of the recommendations against the principle that all patients receive the same treatment, irrespective of how the disease was acquired.

With regard to DHS at the recommendations, we are awaiting the CSR, which may explain why some... Nobles will have to bear with me but will update the House on the recommendations as and when. With regards to compensation and speed of delivery, I can assure you it is committed to opening the full compensation service to all those eligible as soon as possible. On 11 February, they announced their plans to open the compensation scheme in stages, to make sure it is effective as a cure for all those claiming.

This was a decision taken independently of the government, by the board. And my Lord, Ipca is But we do want them to expedite the payments. At the Minister for the Cabinet Office is looking at all the recommendations and will report back to your Lordships house in due course, when we have the recommendations of the latest stage of the inquiry. With regards to the charitable funding. As I mentioned, as has been mentioned, I am pleased the Department of health and has identified the part of £500,000 for this financial year, my Lord, this is brand-new money for those charities who have supported victims of the affected community, for many of the affected community, for many years.

Doing so independently. The government recognises the important work done by those charities who are supporting the affected and infected community, and the pressures placed on these organisations, following the inquiry's report, the government is setting up of the Infected Blood Compensation Scheme for some earlier this week, I met with hepatitis C trust who have had over 3,000 phone calls just this year, relating to infected blood. And with regard to further hearings and the report, we remain fully committed to cooperating with the inquiry, and to act on its recommendations, and are grateful for its compensation and work to date.

So far, we have set aside £11.8 billion to compensate the victims, and might compensation offers over 130 million. I'm conscious noble Earls across the House will be keen to hear the governance plans in responding to the inquiry's oncoming support, while I cannot commit concrete timelines at this stage, my noble friend, the Minister for the Cabinet Office, will consider proposals and recommendations from the inquiry carefully, and respond as soon as possible. My Lords, thank you once again for your contributions.

I am determined that we continue to work closely together to progress this work and continue with the spirit work and continue with the spirit that has characterised our debate on this issue. The government is clear this is not the end of the discussion on infected blood, this discussion on infected blood, this is much more for us to do. To deliver justice for the infected blood community, people who have suffered so much hardship as a suffered so much hardship as a result of this scandal.

We will stay what we can to provide what justice we can, and they must be at the forefront of our minds, and our forefront of our minds, and our primary focus as we do so. primary focus as we do so.

16:13

Baroness Campbell of Surbiton (Crossbench)

- -

My Lords, I begin by declaring an , who died age 33 in 1993. My Lords, I thank the noble Lady, the Minister, for repeating the statement and for meeting me before Easter, the Easter recess. I know that she is genuinely committed to ensuring that the victims get justice, that is welcome. But she justice, that is welcome. But she will not be surprise when I say a statement was made in a house last week, I do not feel it reflects the deep frustration and disappointment of the infected blood community, but showed a lack of progress.

Therefore, in the light of their concerns, Sir Brian Langstaff took the positive step of reopening the inquiry to recycle, to hear why the compensation scheme is failing the community, so profoundly. Does the Minister agree that the chronic delays in processing claims are lamentable? Only 160 or so of 30,000 known to be affected receive payment in the last year and people are dying at the rate of one or two a week. Will the government consider quarterly targets for Ipca to speed-up claim settlements? The statement rightly recognises the devastating impact of this scandal.

Does the Minister accept that the bureaucratic nature of the scheme exacerbates the stress of the community, as they relive their trauma? It is clear from the recent hearings that genuine engagement with the community just isn't happening. Can the Minister reassure the House that the government will address this with Ipca urgently? A properly accessible dashboard in due course isn't good enough. And course isn't good enough. And lastly, the Prime Minister said, a year ago, politics itself fails you.

When the Minister acknowledged that When the Minister acknowledged that the paramount need is to ensure politics does not repeat itself. In politics does not repeat itself. In the words of the CEO of the haemophilia Society, the inquiry haemophilia Society, the inquiry gave us truth but we are still gave us truth but we are still gave us truth but we are still

16:16

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

I thank her for coming in today to participate in the debate. As a member of the affected community, I know of the strain of leadership that she has had to face as people look to her for answers, which she is a tenacious woman in a dedicated campaigner, but that still requires a huge amount of inner strength and I thank her for what she is doing for the community. With regard to the specific points, there were several race and I will reflect on Hansard, but she is right, politics did feel the infected blood community.

With regard... We need to make sure that does not happen again, both for this community and any other community that is facing issues where the state has let them issues where the state has let them down. I truly believe politics is a force for good in the society, we force for good in the society, we need to make sure that it is. I know the noble Lady, or I hope the noble Lady will soon be meeting with the Lady will soon be meeting with the Minister for the Cabinet Office to discuss next steps.

I hope to be present and to make sure that she makes some of these recommendations forcefully, as I know she will. forcefully, as I know she will. Which we will reflect on as we also reflect on the findings of the second phase of the inquiry.

16:17

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

- -

... Taking part remotely, I invite him to ask his question. compensation bill of 11 billion+ and a further annual bill of 3 billion for misdiagnoses and incorrect medication, and then recognising limitations on Commons inquiries due to member availability, limited expertise in the pressures, doesn't this whole affair now demand and at this whole affair now demand and at hoc inquiry into compensation arrangements administration in the arrangements administration in the Lord's drawing on our huge expertise in accountancy, healthcare and wider issues of compensation law? I am sure our people could find ways of speeding up the process, saving a speeding up the process, saving a lot of public money, currently lot of public money, currently unnecessarily feeding some areas of the legal and other professions.

I the legal and other professions. I suspect this will all end up in of EFM before the Public Accounts Committee in years to come. -- Of EFM.

16:18

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

Noble Lord's across you Lordships House have extraordinary expertise and I would more than happily meet with any of them if they have recommendations for how we can more quickly expedite the infected blood compensation. With regards to the 11+ billion, this is an compensation payments for the victims of infected blood. We will do anything we can to make sure this is taxpayers money so there is a balance between making sure the people entitled to it get sure the people entitled to it get it, which is more straightforward for the infected and we will be discussing in great detail what that discussing in great detail what that means as we progress onto the affected to make sure that affected to make sure that safeguards are in place.

This money is for those people who have been directly affected and we need to directly affected and we need to make sure they are the ones with the money.

16:19

Baroness Featherstone (Liberal Democrat)

- -

I thank her for responding -- repeating the statement. For those who don't know, many of you will have heard me say before, I have to declare an interest because one of my sisters twins aged 35 died of infected blood and hepatitis C, leaving a 10-month-old baby daughter. I met with the campaigners yesterday and these are amongst their main issues. The infected blood community were telling me of the deeply concerning delays in application process, but also of an arrogance of behaviour by members of the IPCA and also that the appearance of the delays are deliberate.

Two victims a week are dying and there is a feeling the government might be saving money. I don't actually think that is the case, but the delays allow such theories to develop. And I asked the Minister the following questions, why is it that the speed of response to applicants queries are taking so long? Is it that the IPCA needs more capacity, more staffing, more training? What is the government doing about the difficulties they are doing in navigating the bureaucratic and what many of them think is a vastly overcomplicated compensation claim system? There is a constant complaint about the attitude of some within the IE BCA, who will come across as gatekeepers rather than compensation enablers.

Many wonder whether treasury civil servants aren't counted to the IPCA as their treatment is so like the treatment they received from members of the Civil Service and the government during the 40 or 50 years when they were trying to bring this to a head. What is happening on the disparities between those with HIV and opposed to hepatitis C? Because and opposed to hepatitis C? Because at the moment, it HIV are getting a at the moment, it HIV are getting a vast amount or it is scheduled for a vastly larger amount of compensation than those with HIV, yet those with HIV are dying more than those -- HIV are dying more than those -- those with hep C are dying more than those with HIV, creating division amongst a group of people who are suffering and dying is not a great idea and I would like the Minister idea and I would like the Minister to convey that to the IBCA.

What is to convey that to the IBCA. What is happening with the issues within the compensation scheme such as a 25% less of carers and underpayment errors due to wrong payment errors due to wrong payment calculation. I hope the Minister can answer some of those questions.

16:22

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

16:30

**** Possible New Speaker ****

details. Joining with everything, the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Joining with everything, the moving testimony of those in this House who have done so much on both sides. Could I enter one tribute, which is this, I gave evidence to which is this, I gave evidence to Sir Brian's inquiry over a number of days. I had the misfortune to appear before a number of inquiries in my relatively long parliamentary Khmer relatively long parliamentary Khmer -- career. I think he conducted an exemplary investigation with all those who worked with him and amongst all this horror, that is something to hold onto, that we have some people in our public life in some people in our public life in this country who can do work of that this country who can do work of that

16:31

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)

- -

The noble Lord rightly highlights the work of Sir Brian Langstaff. My Lords, if we consider the community that he, the subject matter that he has been exploring and the trust he has managed to conceal from within the community, his work is both extraordinary and miraculous. And R, for one, on the day of the report for one, on the day of the report for one, on the day of the report when he came forward to the group in the room, across the road, to present the final report, the present the final report, the chairing and demand and standing ovation from a group of people who have been so badly treated by the have been so badly treated by the state, the fact they had that reaction to him, who, based on his reaction to him, who, based on his CV, could easily be said to be the establishment, it is an extraordinary thing he has managed extraordinary thing he has managed to do and we him hugely for the work he has done, which is why we will act on every one of his recommendations.

16:32

Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)

- -

Statement made in the House of Commons yesterday on the UK-EU Summit, the Lord Privy Seal.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lords, I repeat a statement made by the Prime Minister made by the Prime Minister yesterday, when he said I will yesterday, when he said I will update the House on the three recent trade deals struck in the national interest. He said " First, however, I would like to say something about the horrific situation in Gaza, whether left love suffering with innocent children being bombed again is utterly intolerable. Over the weekend we coordinated response with our allies that are set out in my statement last night, I want to put statement last night, I want to put on record today that we are horrified by the escalation from horrified by the escalation from Israel, we repeat our demand for a ceasefire is the only way to free the hostages.

We repeat our opposition to settlements in the West Bank, and we repeat our demand massively scaled up humanitarian assistance to Gaza. The recent assistance to Gaza. The recent announcement that Israel allowed a basic quantity of food into Gaza is totally and utterly inadequate. So, we must coordinate our response, we must coordinate our response, because this war has gone on for far too long. We cannot allow the people of Gaza to starve and the Foreign Secretary to come to the House shortly set out our response in detail." Let me now turn to the three deals of this government has struck, the possible is because negotiations are clear and simple.

Does it drive down bills, does it drive of jobs? Does it strengthen our borders? In each case, the answer is a resounding yes. These deals releases from the tired arguments of the past and as an independent sovereign nation, allow us to seize the opportunities of the future. A clear message sent across the globe that Britain is back on the world stage. We have a trade deal for the world's fastest-growing economy. India. Cutting tariffs for British industries which is a huge boost for our whiskey and gin distilleries, the only concern now is whether they can produce enough to sell and for our car manufacturers, with tariffs slashed from over 100% to just 10%.

And no concessions on visas. We have a trade deal with the world's richest economy, the United States, slashing tariffs, saving thousands upon thousands of jobs in car manufacturing, in places like jaguar, land rover, protecting our steel and alimony exports, and For hugely important pharmaceutical sector. I can already see when it comes to this hat-trick of deals, when our partnerships for the EU, it is what the opposition was once a talk about and given their abject failure to strike a deal with India or US, I cannot say that I blame them, so let me spell out the benefits of this deal, which gives our country unprecedented level of access into the EU market, the best access of any nation outside the EU or the European Free trade Association.

I will start with our security. When Russian tanks rolled into Ukraine over three years ago, gone front was thrown down. -- A gauntlet was thrown down. It was our responsibility to step up, that is what the world demands and this is what the partnership delivers. It what the partnership delivers. It strengthens our national security through a new security strength partnership, and paves the way for British defence firms to access the EU's 150 billion defence fund. That will support British jobs, British wages, and British livelihoods.

The partnership also increases cooperation, on emissions trading. Saving UK businesses from having to pay update hundred million pounds in EU carbon taxes. -- Up to £800 million. Back in British businesses. It will drive down bills to increase cooperation on energy because the agreement, is the Conservative party left us with a more expensive way of working with our neighbours, and any disruption, despite our grids being connected by undersea cables. -- A needless rupture. It brings together, boosting clean British power in the North Sea.

At this partnership strengthens our borders, because again, the previous deal left a huge gap at weakened our ability to tackle illegal which is the ultimate cross-border challenge. It close that gap, which included It close that gap, which included returns, including channel crossings and upstream in peace source and channel countries, across the whole migration route, just in our hand in the fight against the vile smuggling gangs. It boosts our cooperation on law enforcement, combating terrorism and serious organised crime with close operational work with agencies like Euro poll, and agencies and data, including for the first time, face imaging.

The partnership helps British holidaymakers who will be able to use the gate when they travel to Europe, ending those huge queues at passport control. It delivers for our young people, because we are now on a path with a controlled experience scheme with CapS on Numbers. We Will Be Proud to Give Young People the Opportunity, Not for the First Time This Government Has Delivered for Britain's Steel Industry protecting our steel exports, new EU tariffs, and backing our steel sector to the hills full blast, but certainly not least, we have a new century and fight a century deal, as promised in our manifesto, which Ms there will be more money in the pockets of working people, less red tape for our exporters, no more lorry drivers sitting there in with food in the back, and no one needless checks from the Conservative policies which made it so much harder to trade, even within our own market, between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

The deal means that British foods that have been on a menu in Europe can regain their new place, including shellfish which is usually important for Cornwall, Devon and Scotland. Not only does our day-long fish provide stability, no increase in the amount of EU vessels capturing in British waters, but the new SPS agreement slashes costs for our exports to the European market. We sell 70% of our seafood to that market. There is a huge opportunity in Britain's fisheries, in which we have made a £360 million investment, we will look now to exploit.

Reaction to this deal from business has been absolutely clear. I do not have time to run through the list of quotes from businesses, but the new partnership has been backed by Federation support businesses, the CBI, the British retail Consortium, Asda, Morrisons, Salmon Scotland, the British Chamber of Commerce, Ryanair, Vodafone, and producers of meat, milk and poultry. And the list goes on and on. And I wonder whether businesses coming out in support of the deal will temper the Leader of the Opposition, for weeks now, she has been dismissive of any trade deal in defiance of her party's history.

It is not just the Conservatives I'm talking about here, the honourable member for Clacton, who is not here, and the right honourable member for Kingston and Surbiton, have shown inner own way their parties do not get it. If the whole approach to allies is striking a pose, you do not get to strike a deal. What that means in a world like ours, when deals are ever more the currency of security and justice, is that you do not get to make a difference if you do not get to deliver for Britain.

That is what this partnership means. For years, we were told this could not be done. The Conservatives meant was they couldn't do it. We were told a deal with the US was impossible, what they meant was impossible for them. We were told a choice must be made between the US and the EU, what I meant was they could not do a deal with both. This government can and will, because we stay in the room, we fight for national interest, report the British people first.

These deals represent a signal we are back on the world stage, a global champion of free trade, playing our historic role in European security, but above all, these are deals which put money in the pocket of working people, because that is what independent sovereign nationstate. He ended I commend this statement to the House.

16:40

Lord True (Conservative)

- -

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for repeating the statement, and of course, I would say at the outset that we share her concern about the humanitarian situation in Gaza, and I think everyone in this House would wish for a peaceful and swift resolution. Now, my lords, I've been around long enough to know that when a Prime Minister of any party tells you a deal is a triumph, that you need to look pretty fast at the small print. And in this latest case, we do not yet have most of that, which is actually quite a problem.

But the basics are clear, EU control of our food standards restored Britain as a rule taken, not a rule maker. The ECJ back, dynamic alignment back, and frankly, our fishermen's sold all the way to a dogger Bank in the December Gail. All of this for a packet of sausages the French don't actually want. And the promise that we might, potentially where appropriate, might be able to go through a summer holiday through passport gates. That is something the UK continued to give EU citizens ever since Brexit.

Why do they have to give up so much we get something that we in this country have real goodwill to our European friends have given to the EU citizens for decades. My lords, I have defended some done deals in a Dispatch Box in my time, and I have defended some good ones. You get to sniff them out, my Lords. And this one is a dud. It reminds me of some of the negotiations with the EU in the past. Surrender all the key principles first, then try to negotiate the details later when your leverage is gone.

So, having been told in the Labour manifesto there is no freedom of movement, we have a proposed scheme which could see tens of thousands of working age migrants come to Britain, potentially with the ability to settle and bring independence. Cannot noble Baroness confirm if reports the scheme may be capped at 100,000 people are correct, and will she say what operate limit the UK is seeking for this scheme. The UK has , in Paris, enforced in Brussels, while they have no voice at the table.

What assessment the Minister has made of the impact of EU regulations dynamic alignment on the viability of family farms in this country. My Lords, does the government understand autonomy on food standards is vital to the prospects of our being leaders in precision breeding for which we only recently legislated? From being world leaders in this industry of the future, we will be tied to move a pace acceptable to the most resistant bureaucrat in Brussels. We have also agreed to send new money to the EU for the right to sell our neighbours defensive equipment they desperately need, though it is still unclear what we will get from it and what we have to give.

It is disappointing that in the face of the greatest challenge the European security for generations we are haggling the price of cooperation with would-be allies. But my Lords, perhaps the worst case is the case of our fishermen. I was personally unhappy in 2019, when we delayed for five years full control of our waters. But our fisherfolk had full reason to expect things will then reason to expect things will then improve. So they did. When replying to a question from my noble friend just seven weeks ago, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, told the House, and I quote, " I am off to the end of the fisheries adjustment.

Set out to the Trade and Cooperation Agreement, EU access to EU waters, becomes a matter for annual renegotiation. We agreed with the noble Baroness when she said she would work tirelessly to achieve that. But along with our fishing fleet, she was torpedoed by a late- night call from President macron. When working on annual agreements, something given by the Faroe Islands but not, it seems, to Scotland, the payments are turned on a sixpence and offered a 10 year surrender of our fishing rights.

there is something of a pattern. The Mac my Lords, this is something of a pattern. One of the US deal which I think was a good start with the US, and the welcome the premises achievement there, President Trump said that after the deal was done, he picked up the phone to the Prime Minister and as Mr Trump boasted, we got $1 billion more for the US. One late-night call, and they cave in, my Lords, so I beg the noble Baroness opposite, when there is a deal being discussed, please get the Prime Minister to bed early.

Heaven The Attorney-General woke up to share the ludicrous Chagos deal. Bylaws, will the noble Baroness set out what control the UK will have over quote asserting and marine protected areas in our territorial waters? Will she explain why some of the poorest communities in our country should pay for 12 years the price for the government to declare in triumph over well-child wine at a summit? And on energy, just when it seems some common sense was breaking out of the extremes of Net Zero policy, we have entered the EU emissions scheme.

And Castaway energy autonomy. My Lords, if we want to be a leader in the vital industry of AI, we need large quantities of cheap, reliable, homegrown energy delivered by a UK. homegrown energy delivered by a UK. The Labour manifesto set on Europe that it would not reopen the divisions of the past, yet instead of looking to the future of a free, fast, developing independent economy, it has reset us to a misremembered hyper regulated past. Wherein some of the key industries of the future, Britain must again move at the rate of the slowest in the slowest growing economic bloc in the world.

This is a bad deal and is my right honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition has said, it should be ripped up or perhaps used to wrap up some of our dwindling supplies of fish and chips. chips.

16:47

Lord Newby (Liberal Democrat)

- -

And I thank her for reading yesterday's statement. Can I begin by associating these benches with the sentiments expressed in the statement on Gaza. Recent Israeli action is indeed horrific and requires a response. Yesterday's actions by the Foreign Secretary are welcome, but the most obvious way in which we can demonstrate our further support for the Palestinian people is to support their demand for statehood. Can the noble Lady confirm whether this option is under active consideration by the government? On Europe, the joint statement issued by the UK and the EU begins by pointing out that this was the first UK EU summit since Brexit.

This is the context against which the outcome should be judged. It was a real dereliction of duty for the previous government to turn its back so comprehensively against our largest and closest partner. Reset in our relations is long overdue in the national interest. Perhaps the biggest achievement of the summit was that it represented a milestone in rebuilding trust between the UK and the EU. For too long, too many in British politics have put scorn on the EU whilst placing their hooks on replacing ties with Europe with countries which are now run by unreliable allies.

The EU has noticed this and has been understandably wary in treating with the UK as a result will stop against this background, the specific outcomes of the seminar to be welcomed, whether on freer trade in food products, energy, security, defence and I'm sure pet owners will also be cheering to the rafters the return of the pet passport. It will surprise no one however that we on these benches see these agreements as but small, tentative first steps towards restoring a much deeper, more productive relationship with the EU.

The progress on veterinary and plant health requirements are particularly welcome as they lead to immediate benefits to the food and agricultural sectors and is the statement made clear, they have even been welcomed by the Scottish Summit industry. The return of fictions trade in this area are one of the main reasons why yesterday's deal will add 0.2% to GDP. For firms in every other productive sector seeking to export to the UK -- EU, the deal does nothing to make that easier.

Before yesterday's deal, we were set to lose four% of GDP as a result of Brexit. Now we are set to lose 3.8%. This shows how much more there is to do and why movement towards rejoining the customs union and the single market are still urgently required. The commitment to a youth mobility scheme and re- association with your Rasmus plus are welcome, but vague as to timing and detailed content. Could the noble Lady say with the government's aspirations are to conclude these new arrangements so students and young people more generally can benefit as Mac the agreements on traveling artist, short-term business mobility and mutual recognition of professional qualifications are also welcome, but are even vaguer.

Given that agreement in these areas would be a clear win-win for both sides, it is surprisingly disappointing that more progress hasn't yet been achieved. In the government say what they envisage happening next to bring about these much-needed easement? The new EU UK security and defence partnership is also welcome. At the heart of this is the 150 billion defence procurement fund. The UK will now negotiate to become a participant in this programme. This cost will significantly benefit the UK defence industry, but there are no details.

When can we expect some? In defence and security, and the other areas covered by yesterday's agreements, new institutional ties with the EU will give the UK for the first time in almost a decade a formal route to influence EU thinking. This is no small gain, taken together yesterday's agreement, far from representing a surrender of British interest, aren't overdue reassertion of them. -- are in overdue. -- are in -- are in overdue. -- are in overdue. So, the government now overdue.

So, the government now needs to build on the progress it made yesterday. That would make the made yesterday. That would make the UK more prosperous, more influential UK more prosperous, more influential and more secure. The sooner and more decisively it does it, the better. decisively it does it, the better.

16:53

Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)

- -

I'm grateful for their contributions on the situation in Gaza. It is dire and gets worse by the day. Some will of heard Tom Fletcher from the UN saying on the radio yesterday his fear of the number of babies that could die in the next 48 hours if aid wasn't got in Quicken. -- Quick enough. They are waiting to take more aid and now, my noble friend Lord Collins will be making a pointed statement in the House tomorrow.

It felt that this rancher to form because on the side of the House you've gone too far it's terrible, on the side of the House you haven't gone far enough. We've pitched ourselves right in the plate right place here. It was an uncharitable and predictable response from the noble Lord True. Some of his questions when he criticised, he mentioned on the E routes, why was the deal so bad last time? I think he should ask his own government that because the deal was done by his own government on that point.

Some of the issues that were raised, he asked questions about the emissions trading system. It's a ridiculous situation that we have British businesses, UK industry is currently a trade worth 7 billion pounds. It's at risk for paying what is in fact a levy to the EU. That has to be in the interest of energy prices and British industry as well. That money was going straight from UK exporters into the EU budget. There was a better way of doing this.

CO2 storage is a growth industry in the UK that has enormous potential for investment and jobs. Linking ATS removes disincentives for EU emitters to store CO2 in the UK. That makes our industry here for more competitive. That's an important point that has been made. On the SPS agreements, I was surprised by the noble Lord not being supportive of this. This is a huge improvement. It also has a huge impact on Northern Ireland because under the Brexit deal done originally, trying to find a way to make it work with the withdrawal of the winter agreement, this was a terrible situation, we even had problems exporting between GBN Northern Ireland.

I remember Boris Johnson, I don't know if other noble lords remember the particular media interview where he was talking to a group of businesspeople and said if there was any roles to be filled in, you send them to me. Can I suggest if he had, he might've disappeared under the pile of forms that were sent to them. We spoke to someone the other night was set for one containment they filled in 2,000 forms. That is damaging to our industry, damaging to our exports.

While the forms were being checked, more had to be filled in, produce was rotting at the borders. I know across the House they found that an issue in their own businesses. It is absolutely right we have taken action to deal with that. The noble or said about how long it would take, it isn't going to happen on the E passports. The negotiations are starting immediately with member countries to make sure this does happen and does protect and support those in the UK who are traveling.

Anyone who is queued up on their way back from holiday or business travel and joined a very long queue and saw others with you passports wandering through British citizen stopping able to, I think they will be pleased to see that as well. These are important agreements. Last year there were 14.1 billion pounds of UK agri-food exports went to EU countries. That has a huge impact on British businesses. He goes on about dynamic alignment. They might be helpful if we say something about divergence and dynamic alignment.

There has been research undertaken in May just gone the UK and a change in Europe. That showed that the UK is done very little to diverge from EU regulations. What that has meant is that British businesses were sticking to those rules because it was in their interest, but the barriers for them exporting had a huge impact on their businesses. The lived reality is we have had very little benefit from that and this which is why it has been welcome by so many businesses.

In our deal with the US, we made it clear we were not prepared to accept chlorinated chicken. That would have a detrimental effect on our farmers who have invested in higher welfare standards. There are always these issues that come along on that point. I don't have time to respond to all questions, but I want to come back to fishing and particularly. We will have a role in shaping new rules. No rules will apply in the UK unless they go to parliament.

They need parliaments agreement. Any disputes or by international agreement and arbitration. Where the CG EU has a role as regards to the interpretation of EU law. I will say briefly on fishing, the fishing industry exports 72% of its produce to the EU. They will benefit hugely from the agreement. On the SPS. That makes a difference to them. Our shellfish people have not been able to export anything. Saying we can now export shellfish has a huge impact and is beneficial to those farmers in Scotland, Devon and other parts of the country who produce shellfish.

As with our salmon farmers as well. The year on your agreement, there was obviously a wish to get a better deal. That was highly unlikely because we haven't reset the relationship. Alongside the uncertainty is at 350 million pounds investment for those coastal areas and for the fishing industry to help them invest in technology and grow their business. I think this is an excellent deal, deals with defence, security and the things that matter to the British people. It takes us a step forward and takes us away from Brexiter no and takes us away from Brexiter no Brexit.

There will be annual summits to look at these issues. In terms of the customs union, if we are in a the customs union, if we are in a customs union we wouldn't have the India and US steel. They said we couldn't do it, they said we will couldn't do it, they said we will never get a deal with the EU and the never get a deal with the EU and the

17:00

Lord Clarke of Nottingham (Conservative)

- -

May I congratulate them on the progress they have made in strengthening the European arm of NATO in light of the changed circumstances. And the start they have made on putting us back into a healthier relationship of soft Brexit with the European Union to replace the hard Brexit which is doing so much harm to our economy in recent years it continues to do so. But would he acknowledge, would she acknowledge, sorry, would she acknowledge that this is, by no means, a final deal, and there are many, many questions to be asked and many other areas to be opened up, such that might be brought to other sectors of the economy to get us back to something like the healthy trading relationship we had with the EU before Brexit intervened.

Would EU before Brexit intervened. Would she confirm we can make great progress without in anyway compromising the public vote in the compromising the public vote in the referendum. The hard Brexit we had was quite unnecessarily, fiercely, was quite unnecessarily, fiercely, and how European. Would she just reassure us that this is only the start of a continuing process of negotiation, so we seek firm detail and more positive results for interest groups in addition to farmers.

17:02

Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)

- -

The Noble Lord makes the experience quite a point. There are more flesh to put on the bones of these particular agreements as well and for making us of the most important things that came out of this is that now we have a willingness to talk and engage on the agreement. That had been sadly missing and has been damaging to the British economy and the British people. There will be annual summit as well and I think a number of issues referenced in the documentation, for example, thinking those of the creative industries et cetera, that is mentioned as well, cetera, that is mentioned as well, more detail to put on the use experience scheme.

All those issues, yes. I think the annual summit is where we have these discussions and we are also looking to do trades with other countries around the with other countries around the world as well. But what I think that we all want and what I hope we all want to see is a better relationship, a mature relationship, and we can have those discussions and when you agree with we are and when you agree with we are coming forward with to do so, so there are still issues outstanding and we do intend to make that and we do intend to make that progress in the interest of the people of this country.

people of this country.

17:03

Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Labour)

- -

My Lords, I would like to congratulate my Noble Friend the Minister on the Frontbench and say that I very much welcome this statement on SPS. Electricity trading and admissions trading. And we must not forget that UK energy was looking for a deal on electricity trading and the alignment of schemes in respect of admissions trading, so in congratulating my Noble Friend and our Government I and bringing us further towards the European Union. I would like to point out and ask the Noble Lady the Minister in .30 and .44 of the common understanding which was launched on Monday it said that the European should consult the Government of the United Kingdom at an early stage of policy-making in an early stage of policy-making in respect of SPS admissions trading respect of SPS admissions trading and electricity trading.

Would she, at this stage, be able to give us a timeline in relation to this? And I also have to declare interest as a member of the Governments for every member of the Governments for every medicines working group and in that I welcome a resolution in that regard.

17:04

Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)

- -

I am grateful to the Noble Lady about her comments and she is right about the importance of these particular issues. I cannot give in exact timeline as the summit was only last week but I think all of these issues who want to work apace because between summits we want to see progress and we need to put the detail on the bones which she is right about the issue about consultation and that is what has been missing outside the time since Brexit we do need this consultation and we have only been in Government eight months and the progress that has been made in eight months is great and something we should be great and something we should be proud of, but I take your point that the detail and the timeline we will see when that is available and share that.

17:05

The Earl of Clancarty (Crossbench)

- -

My Lords, I congratulate the Government on pressing ahead with the use experience scheme, and indeed with negotiating Erasmus+, schemes that are in answer to the naysayers to increase opportunities naysayers to increase opportunities for less privileged young British people, however it is disappointing there are no concrete proposals on there are no concrete proposals on creative professionals touring. This is urgent and many musicians cannot is urgent and many musicians cannot to Europe and, of course, this affects all the other arts. Visual arts, passion, film and theatre.

Finally, will there be discussions about rejoining creative Europe? That would benefit us hugely That would benefit us hugely including in film? including in film?

17:06

Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)

- -

I am grateful to the Noble Lord. He has been a good advocate of the exchanges we look to and what I can say is that in paragraph 15 of our understanding the paragraph says the European and the United Kingdom recognise the value of the cultural recognise the value of the cultural and artistic exchanges, including the activities of touring artists and they will continue their efforts and they will continue their efforts to support cultural exchange. I think that indicates that we do want to ensure there is that arrangement.

I can't answer on creative Europe because those discussions have not because those discussions have not taken place and not everything summit, this is just one of the issues we would certainly wish to settle on. settle on.

17:06

Baroness Ludford (Liberal Democrat)

- -

I agree that restored trust has been vital, although it does leave a lot of detail to be filled in. I fear that the conservative reaction is insulting to business, but there are also limits to what we can get proposed by the Government itself, for instance I believe that even though some redtape can be cut very wilfully by the SPS agreement, of wilfully by the SPS agreement, of which we have yet to see the detail, want there be customs hoops to jump want there be customs hoops to jump through? Why exactly is the Government maintaining its red lines against the single market and customs union? We know the ideology around that, but what is the practical value? I heard her talk practical value? I heard her talk about interior agreement and the US, but compared to the volume of the EU but compared to the volume of the EU market, the latter is far more important and the Government is limiting our own ability to improve life for businesses and citizens.

life for businesses and citizens.

17:07

Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)

- -

I am not sure I said that noble Ladies premise entirely but given where we are in our manifesto we set out with a clear red lines were, recognising the public vote on Brexit, and what we have done is as well as agreements with the EU we well as agreements with the EU we are looking further on the board as well, we have the two agreements in place with the EU that she would place with the EU that she would know as we debated until very late in the night on occasion here and we said it would never be done if we had any way from the EU we have proved them wrong and I think it is proved them wrong and I think it is important to look across the world for agreements as well and we will continue to make sure that our relationship with the EU is productive.

productive.

17:08

Lord Lilley (Conservative)

- -

I must declare an interest as a French farmer in a small way my smallholding in France I would, in any case, welcome any agreement that I believed would remove or reduce unnecessary burdens to trade resulting from SPS regulations across the channel. Indeed, I was party to negotiations which, ultimately, culminated in an agreement to which the UK and all 27 members of the EU are party called the WTO agreement on the application of sanitary and phytosanitary measures.

And it sees SPS measures shall not be applied as a disguise restriction on international trade. That is what EU countries do and the EU has been found in repeated violation of this agreement. It goes on to say member shall accept the measures of other members as equivalent, even if these measures differ from their own. I was currently identical. Why, therefore, does the EU not accept them such. It goes on to say that control and inspection procedures are completed without undue delay and with no less favourable benefit for imported products for life domestic products.

products for life domestic products. We know that does not happen for our exports to the EU. What I am asking the Minister is why she believes the Minister is why she believes that the EU will adhere to an agreement rather than a time that agreement rather than a time that she proposes to reach when it is in flagrant and repeated violation of an agreement that has been enforced an agreement that has been enforced in international law for some years.

17:10

Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)

- -

We are confident that we have reached, sorry, I have got something reached, sorry, I have got something flying onto my paperwork. We are confident in this agreement, we are confident in our relationship with confident in our relationship with the EU. All those that have had to export to the EU, all those that export to the EU, all those that have produce going to the EU or bringing produce into this country know how urgent and important it is know how urgent and important it is that we reach the agreement, so if we do have confidence in it, we will ensure the EU does also.

ensure the EU does also.

17:10

Lord Liddle (Labour)

- -

My Lords, will the noble Baroness accept the congratulations which she should convey to our Prime Minister on this very important step in our relations with the European Union? They are pragmatic steps, but they do open up the way to create future cooperation, for example the framework of alignment that has been agreed on energy and phytosanitary standards is capable of being extended to other centres of the economy like chemicals and pharmaceuticals and engineering which will be important and, finally, does she note that at a time when the security situation in Europe is deteriorating fast, when Europe is deteriorating fast, when there is talk of President Trump there is talk of President Trump withdrawing from support of Ukraine, supporting Ukraine, that it is supporting Ukraine, that it is crucial that Europe gets its act together on defence and on rearmament.

And that what is in this agreement will enable that to be done with much greater effectiveness. effectiveness.

17:12

Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)

- -

I will pass on the noble Lords comments to the Prime Minister and the members of the Cabinet office and those involved in the negotiations and I would also say they would only proceed where it is in the interests of British as Mrs, so each case taken step-by-step on its own merit, I think there is certainly scope for mutual benefits, as I have said. He is right to mention issues of security and defence. You will be pleased to know that in the document just the second paragraph, the second chapter, that was highlighted.

On all of this is the common Security and defence seen with the invasion of Ukraine it is with the invasion of Ukraine it is more important than ever that we have a strong and secure Europe and have a strong and secure Europe and that we are all working together to the same ends.

17:13

Lord Weir of Ballyholme (Democratic Unionist Party)

- -

My Lords, whatever the claims and counter claims made by the Government and whatever concerns may be raised today I am sure some of those concerns, though I would share some of those raising concerns who only a short time ago were very happy to see exactly the same conditions posed on what part of the United kingdom was the best of both worlds, but rather than looking at the perspectives, what will be critical will be the practical experience of how this works out in reality.

The Minister is right in identifying the significant aspect perhaps of this is the SPS agreement. Under the previous arrangements that were in place, the Government is due to impose a labelling system, going from food, drink, and other SPS products, going from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, and this is GDP imposed in July, adding an additional layer of bureaucracy, creating the only instance of the UK or indeed all of your wire this will happen. The your wire this will happen.

The Government give a commitment in light of this new agreement? To end light of this new agreement? To end what would be a ludicrous situation of imposing new restrictions in July which are then redundant and will which are then redundant and will then have two be removed at some then have two be removed at some stage within the next couple of months. Would the Government not be better to at least pause or increase better to at least pause or increase the grace period until this is implemented, so that we are not left with what I think is an unnecessary with what I think is an unnecessary additional burden of labelling of goods coming into Northern Ireland.

17:15

Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)

- -

I am grateful to the Noble Lord for their experience on this and even though I said before that I think it is a HM when the Brexit debate was taking place, so little attention was placed on the impact it would have on people's livelihoods. There were no preparations from the Government on how to manage that. And this moves how to manage that. And this moves how to manage that. And this moves barriers on products and I take away the point he makes, I think it is for the products to see what is happening, I discussed that with the secretary of Northern Ireland and we secretary of Northern Ireland and we secretary of Northern Ireland and we Would the noble Lady accept...

Wood at the noble Lady except... There is another five minutes.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

With the noble Lady except that

**** Possible New Speaker ****

With the noble Lady except that this has been widely supported, this has been widely supported, throughout the country, right across parties, because it shows that this parties, because it shows that this government has at least lived in the world we live in and not in some world we live in and not in some past world. We now go forward to work more closely with our biggest and most important market and our and most important market and our closest neighbour.

Would she except those congratulations and hope we can move forward, further in this

**** Possible New Speaker ****

direction. I am always happy to except

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I am always happy to except congratulations. A very important point he makes about living in the

17:16

Baroness Coussins (Crossbench)

- -

point he makes about living in the real world. The issue about alignment came up moments ago. It is really important, if you look at what has happened already, there hasn't been the divergence we were told was going to happen. That's why the paperwork that British businesses are having to go through is so much nonsense, such a burden for them. It is about living in the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

real world and doing the best for the economy and the people in this country. The statement read out by the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The statement read out by the noble Lady the Minister said that we will do away with the longer delays faced by lorry drivers with rotting faced by lorry drivers with rotting food in the back. Could she also say whether it will do away with the long delays faced by coachloads of

17:17

Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)

- -

schoolchildren, on school trips to France. Hussain said the government did away with the group passport scheme have seen 40 or 50 all children all had to get off the coach and be individually checked. Occasionally resulting in the coach driver hitting the legal drive time limit and abandoning the coach altogether. Will this see the reintroduction of the group passport scheme, or an equivalent replacement scheme, to facilitate educational

**** Possible New Speaker ****

school trips, for children. I think the noble Lady highlights one of those issues that was never one of those issues that was never thought about was going to be a thought about was going to be a problem. I'm pleased to hear that schools are still doing trips, because I've heard of so many schools have undertaken... Those

17:18

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster (Labour)

- -

schools have undertaken... Those trips, because of the problems of actually going. I will do that later, my lords. One thing at a time. So many schools cancel trips because of the complications are doing so for that I do not think it was discussed at the summit, I will find out from the papers I've seen, future ones, I will take it back.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The European affairs Select

17:18

Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)

- -

Committee, in his recent visit to Brussels, it became very clear and was the constructive and positive attitude of this government that was opening the way to meaningful discussions, particularly, particularly in defence and security. There are obviously some details to be ironed out. Can my noble friend the leader set out what advice and processes and there will be a UK defence industry, to be able to benefit from the partnership agreements, from defence and the funds available.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I'm grateful to the noble Lady and I can properly answer the and I can properly answer the question of the Lord Newby on this point as well. I was a member in the other place I had a defence other place I had a defence constituency and they are very entrepreneurial, innovative and they do a great deal of research and technical research and applications technical research and applications across the board. The MoD will work across the board. The MoD will work with those companies.

One of the things, with the EU setting up the security action for Europe issue

17:19

Baroness Meyer (Conservative)

- -

security action for Europe issue meant which will have, is supposed to have 150, is supposed to have 150 to have 150, is supposed to have 150 Is be a part of that, we could benefit from that. If we look at the exports undertaken by the UK defence industry, there are going to benefit enormously from this, if we can ensure that there is still so recognised and we are working in a joint partnership. It will allow us to bid and be part of the £150

**** Possible New Speaker ****

billion fund. The real world, France has a

17:20

Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)

- -

budget deficit of five point 8%, compared to hours of two point 3%. France has unemployment of seven point 3%, compared to our four point 5%. France has 19% youth unemployment, Germany's economy is going down rapidly, with export going down a lot. So I am confused when the Prime Minister and the government is calling at this a

**** Possible New Speaker ****

wonderful deal, how can it be a wonderful deal for our businesses and this country's economy? Slightly puzzled by the noble Lady's question, if I'm honest. She seems to say our economy is doing seems to say our economy is doing well now, we are picking up. We have had a very difficult time under the last 14 years and I hesitate to say, with the £22 billion black hole, in

17:21

Legislation: Employment Rights Bill - committee stage (day 5)

with the £22 billion black hole, in current spending plans, but doing a deal with the EU on trade in the economy, let me answer the noble Lady's question, if she will let me. We have to start all the things we have told people we were doing. We had a trade, cooperation agreements, defence agreements, security with the EU. We have a trade agreement with India, we have a trade agreement with the USA. The noble Lady told us last year it would

**** Possible New Speaker ****

never happen, it has and we are delighted we can tell the British public. The appropriate moment to allow a brief pause for the changeover of My My lords, My lords, House My lords, House to My lords, House to be My lords, House to be again My lords, House to be again in committee on the Employment Rights

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Bill. Baroness Jones of Whitchurch. I bow to me that the House and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I bow to me that the House and now again resolve itself into a committee upon the bill. This House now adjourn itself

**** Possible New Speaker ****

This House now adjourn itself into a committee upon the bill. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Content". Of the contrary, "Not

17:23

Baroness Smith of Llanfaes (Plaid Cymru)

- -

After After clause After clause 22, After clause 22, Amendment After clause 22, Amendment 99, Baroness Smith of Glenn Freese, if I have bundled that territorial designation, my sincere apologies to

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the noble Lady. I write to speak to Amendment and

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I write to speak to Amendment and 100 and I would like to thank both 100 and I would like to thank both the noble Lord, Lord Russell and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for signing these amendments. As I open the debate on these amendments I look forward to hearing from all look forward to hearing from all members would like to engage in this very important topic on tackling work -based gender-based violence work -based gender-based violence and harassment. Firstly I would like to thank the noble Baroness, the Minister, for meeting with me ahead Minister, for meeting with me ahead To discuss these amendments.

I'm grateful for the engagement on this matter and hope that he continues. matter and hope that he continues. They also begin in thanking a number of organisations for their support in the drafting of these amendments. I thank the Suzy Lamplugh trust, the rights of women and the workers policy project. The formation of policy project. The formation of these amendments began with the Private Members' Bill, to the same effect tabled by my colleague and the other place, Lisa Roberts, who is below the bar today.

Finally I would like to thank Mr Richard sphinx for sharing his personal story. Mr sphinx has experienced the most devastating consequence of the adequacy of gender-based violence in the workplace. In the tragic loss of his daughter Gracie. And I'm thankful to him for sharing his support for these amendments -- inadequacy. In the mid 99 and 100 attempt to tackle those very inadequacies in employee protections. Amending the health and safety act 1974, Amendment 99 introduces clear, actionable duties for employers to protect workers from violence and harassment.

Including risk assessments, and policy development. It provides recognition and prevention training to all employees. And Amendment 100 Executive Executive to Executive to develop Executive to develop and Executive to develop and publish Executive to develop and publish an enforceable health and safety framework, on violence and harassment, in the workplace. And issue guidance for employers in collaboration with relevant bodies. The prevalence of sexual harassment and violence in the workplace, across the UK, shows that interventions, like these amendments, are unfortunately absolutely necessary. His Majesty's government equalities officer survey, in 2020 found that 29% of those in employment reported having experienced some form of sexual harassment, in their workplace, or workplace environment, in the last 12 months.

And only 15% reported it. 2024 study by Sheffield Holland University found that sexual harassment is particularly high, in traditionally male dominated and female dominated industry. Highest Considering Considering that Considering that workers Considering that workers may Considering that workers may be unlikely to recognise some of their experiences as a sexual harassment. These numbers are probably a much higher in reality. This is also true of gender-based violence, psychological and emotional abuse, physical and sexual abuse, stalking and harassment and threats of violence. In fact, 56% of calls to rights of women sexual harassment at work advice line art made up of reports of sexual assault, rape, stalking and coercive control.

However, despite the UK ratifying at the ILO Convention, 119... In 2022

This debate has concluded

Return to start of debate - Return to top of page