Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee
Wednesday 11th November 2026
Skip to latest contribution
This debate has concluded
(began 1 day, 2 hours ago)
Watch LiveSkip to latest contribution
This debate has concluded
09:51
Caroline Dinenage
-
-
Caroline Dinenage
Welcome to this meeting of the digital, culture, Media and Sport Select Committee. Today we are holding a follow up session on our inquiry on British film and high end TV, which we published in April 2025. And on our first panel today we have Pete Johnson, who's the chief executive of the British Screen Forum. We have Claire Mundell, who is the managing director of Synchronicity Films. And we've got Harriet Finney, who is the deputy chief executive officer of the British Film Institute. You're all very welcome. Thank you so much for joining us today, and thank you for your patience.
We had to postpone this meeting from September. So we've been on tenterhooks waiting to waiting to speak to you. Before we begin, can I just remind members to declare any interest at the point that you ask your questions? I'm going to start, if I can, Harriet, with you. How would you describe the current state of the UK film and high end TV sector? Where are we and how does it compare to where we were when the committee first published our report in April 25th?
We had to postpone this meeting from September. So we've been on tenterhooks waiting to waiting to speak to you. Before we begin, can I just remind members to declare any interest at the point that you ask your questions? I'm going to start, if I can, Harriet, with you. How would you describe the current state of the UK film and high end TV sector? Where are we and how does it compare to where we were when the committee first published our report in April 25th?
09:52
Alison Hume
-
-
Alison Hume
Great. Well, thanks, Dame Caroline and everybody here today. I also just want to say thank you very much for the work of the committee and the recommendations that you published back in April 2025. A number of the recommendations that you put forward have been taken forward, and that is fantastic. I mean, thank you very much for your support, particularly around the independent film Tax Relief, which has come in around support for the Global Screen Fund, which has seen a doubling in terms of the amount that we are now distributing into the sector from the Global Screen Fund.
You also had recommendations for the BFI in there, a number of which have been taken forward as well. I think the timing of your committee meeting today is particularly prescient. I'm not sure if the committee has had an opportunity yet to have a look at the third quarter statistics, which were published yesterday. There were both box office statistics and there were also production statistics. The good news is around the box office, we have seen a really extraordinary recovery in terms of box office in the UK over the past 12 months. We've got emissions are at around 100 million.
That is back up to the level that we saw pre-COVID, which is fantastic. It's fair to say that that was very much driven by two films. It was driven by Odyssey and Spider-Man Brand New Day. August saw the highest ever admissions in cinemas that we've ever recorded. The challenge continues to be, and something that was identified by the committee last time round is the challenge around distribution. So the independent film Tax Relief is fantastic, but UK films are not cutting through at box office, so that's something I'm sure we'll pick up today. Production. The UK has got this extraordinary production landscape.
We are an absolute sort of global hub for filmmaking, but we have seen in these recent statistics a dip in terms of production happening in the UK. The context is we are seeing a global reduction in terms of commissioning. It's something that's being felt in terms of Hollywood is commissioning very definitely less around film and high end television. The key thing is the UK's market share remains robust and high, but we do need to think about the competitive environment that is, you know, is around us. We're definitely seeing other territories who look to the UK as an absolute model of how the production landscape can be shaped around skills, around workforce, around talent, and importantly, around the tax incentives as well.
And we are seeing whether it's in Ireland, in our neighbouring territories, in Europe and Australia, definitely a kind of much more competitive environment as we look ahead, potentially also the introduction of a US federal incentive. So really important we keep that in mind. But also the stats continue to show that the domestic production market still is under pressure. And I think we'll probably talk between us around some of the measures we'd like to see around domestic as well.
You also had recommendations for the BFI in there, a number of which have been taken forward as well. I think the timing of your committee meeting today is particularly prescient. I'm not sure if the committee has had an opportunity yet to have a look at the third quarter statistics, which were published yesterday. There were both box office statistics and there were also production statistics. The good news is around the box office, we have seen a really extraordinary recovery in terms of box office in the UK over the past 12 months. We've got emissions are at around 100 million.
That is back up to the level that we saw pre-COVID, which is fantastic. It's fair to say that that was very much driven by two films. It was driven by Odyssey and Spider-Man Brand New Day. August saw the highest ever admissions in cinemas that we've ever recorded. The challenge continues to be, and something that was identified by the committee last time round is the challenge around distribution. So the independent film Tax Relief is fantastic, but UK films are not cutting through at box office, so that's something I'm sure we'll pick up today. Production. The UK has got this extraordinary production landscape.
We are an absolute sort of global hub for filmmaking, but we have seen in these recent statistics a dip in terms of production happening in the UK. The context is we are seeing a global reduction in terms of commissioning. It's something that's being felt in terms of Hollywood is commissioning very definitely less around film and high end television. The key thing is the UK's market share remains robust and high, but we do need to think about the competitive environment that is, you know, is around us. We're definitely seeing other territories who look to the UK as an absolute model of how the production landscape can be shaped around skills, around workforce, around talent, and importantly, around the tax incentives as well.
And we are seeing whether it's in Ireland, in our neighbouring territories, in Europe and Australia, definitely a kind of much more competitive environment as we look ahead, potentially also the introduction of a US federal incentive. So really important we keep that in mind. But also the stats continue to show that the domestic production market still is under pressure. And I think we'll probably talk between us around some of the measures we'd like to see around domestic as well.
09:55
09:55
09:55
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
I think I'd just add the sort of broader context that whatever the headwinds at the moment, there are significant headwinds at the moment. As Harriet said, increasing international competition for highly mobile production activity, the sort of long term growth, the long term forecasts for audiovisual consumption and production of audiovisual content are still very high. So, you know, we are talking about a pie globally that is going to be growing, and we just need to double down on our efforts to make sure that our share of that grows as well. And I think there are lots of other countries.
I mean, I would highlight Spain as well, who have increased their production spend by 45% between 22 and 25 because they took a whole government approach and said, we are going to have a Brexit bonus, and it's going to be attracting more inward investment in audiovisual. And they've really, really doubled down on that. So I think we've just got to continually look at our own competitiveness as a country. We're really good at this stuff. We're really, really good at it. You know, Claire here is a sort of an example of that. And we just need to make sure that we're giving people like Claire the tools, the incentives, and the support that they need to deliver, continue to deliver for the UK.
I mean, I would highlight Spain as well, who have increased their production spend by 45% between 22 and 25 because they took a whole government approach and said, we are going to have a Brexit bonus, and it's going to be attracting more inward investment in audiovisual. And they've really, really doubled down on that. So I think we've just got to continually look at our own competitiveness as a country. We're really good at this stuff. We're really, really good at it. You know, Claire here is a sort of an example of that. And we just need to make sure that we're giving people like Claire the tools, the incentives, and the support that they need to deliver, continue to deliver for the UK.
09:56
09:56
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Firstly, I think the the R&D tax relief would would have a significant impact. It's the bit of the production process that companies need to finance themselves. You know, it's the bit where they take all the risk. A lot of companies are, you know, struggle to raise finance anyway, particularly risk finance. And I think that would have been extremely helpful. Other countries do allow creative endeavors to be included within their R&D tax reliefs. The Frascati definition, which is the international definition, allows it. The UK has always chosen not to. I've never quite understood why.
09:57
09:57
Gill German
-
-
Gill German
Thank you chair. So we know that at the moment the government is consulting on National Lottery funding and that's. And that the BFI at the moment is the distributor for the for the screen industry. And I think it's fair to say there's a there's a broad benefit that comes from that. That's that perhaps the the market wouldn't be able to provide. So things like support for young filmmakers. I've got a BFI Academy that runs in my area that I know is a real asset. So I suppose the question is about what could be at risk if the government changes that model for allocation and and distribution, and what part of the stream the screen sector depends most heavily on National Lottery funding.
If I could turn to Harriet for that question, please.
If I could turn to Harriet for that question, please.
09:58
Alison Hume
-
-
Alison Hume
Thanks. Thanks very much. So, yeah. So, I mean, we very much welcome the call for evidence from government to actually, the lottery hasn't been used in 30 years that it's been up and running. So actually, it was a really good opportunity for the BFI, but both the sector as well to tell the story of the impact of National Lottery, which really does touch every single age and stage of anybody engaging with the film industry. And I'd say in terms of the areas that we feel would be greatest loss, I mean, there are three principal things which lottery has been incredibly successful at doing so.
One of them is reflecting UK lives on screen. There's obviously we see a lot of the sort of huge, big blockbuster content, but what National Lottery and other public funding allows for is those small stories which otherwise would never make their way to the big screen. Just this year we've had Rose of Nevada, which is about a small Cornish fishing community. We've had the Incomer set on a remote Scottish island, and then we've had buildings fall like lightning, which is around in a city Birmingham story of of young people. And those stories are, you know, the only way they're going to make it to the screen and allow those people to see their stories being told is really through that that piece, that National Lottery funding can play also a huge role in talent development.
You mentioned the BFI Film Academy. We have a number of talent development programmes, both in terms of behind the screen, but also actually the films that we support are quite often really fundamental in the kind of development of British on screen talent. You've seen Olivia Colman's first big screen piece, which took her away from sitcoms, was tyrannosaur seen Josh O'Connor in God's Own Country, Jessie Buckley and Beast. So some of these are all of them. That was their first big screen moment. And they've obviously gone, you know, to do great things. Also behind the screen, the screen is really important as well.
So that is the skills that people learn through, say, the film academies, clusters, etc.. So that piece is really vital and there isn't anybody else providing in that space. And then audiences. So our audience funding is really significant. It reaches 2000 cinemas, festivals, communities across the UK, providing a really rich programme of diverse programming into those communities. One of our programmes, we've had 220,000 free tickets through our cinema programme, which has gone out to people who normally wouldn't necessarily engage in their local cinema and giving them the opportunity to do that. So I think it's about audiences, it's about talent and it's about those British stories on screen.
One of them is reflecting UK lives on screen. There's obviously we see a lot of the sort of huge, big blockbuster content, but what National Lottery and other public funding allows for is those small stories which otherwise would never make their way to the big screen. Just this year we've had Rose of Nevada, which is about a small Cornish fishing community. We've had the Incomer set on a remote Scottish island, and then we've had buildings fall like lightning, which is around in a city Birmingham story of of young people. And those stories are, you know, the only way they're going to make it to the screen and allow those people to see their stories being told is really through that that piece, that National Lottery funding can play also a huge role in talent development.
You mentioned the BFI Film Academy. We have a number of talent development programmes, both in terms of behind the screen, but also actually the films that we support are quite often really fundamental in the kind of development of British on screen talent. You've seen Olivia Colman's first big screen piece, which took her away from sitcoms, was tyrannosaur seen Josh O'Connor in God's Own Country, Jessie Buckley and Beast. So some of these are all of them. That was their first big screen moment. And they've obviously gone, you know, to do great things. Also behind the screen, the screen is really important as well.
So that is the skills that people learn through, say, the film academies, clusters, etc.. So that piece is really vital and there isn't anybody else providing in that space. And then audiences. So our audience funding is really significant. It reaches 2000 cinemas, festivals, communities across the UK, providing a really rich programme of diverse programming into those communities. One of our programmes, we've had 220,000 free tickets through our cinema programme, which has gone out to people who normally wouldn't necessarily engage in their local cinema and giving them the opportunity to do that. So I think it's about audiences, it's about talent and it's about those British stories on screen.
10:00
10:00
Alison Hume
-
-
Alison Hume
Yeah, and I think just one of the things in terms of what the lottery call for evidence, I mean, there are obviously in the process, DCMs are thinking about the policy recommendations that will come out of that. I mean, certainly us working better with other lottery distributors is really key as part of that, us working better in communities with local governments, local decision makers, really, really important. The one thing I'd say is that in terms of, and I think this came up at the committee last time, in terms of the share, we have 2.7% of the share.
It's £50 million. Only 10% of the applications we receive can we meet. And in some of the programmes it's only 3%. So we are leaving a vast number of really fantastic projects unfunded at the moment.
It's £50 million. Only 10% of the applications we receive can we meet. And in some of the programmes it's only 3%. So we are leaving a vast number of really fantastic projects unfunded at the moment.
10:01
10:01
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
I would say a very specific British cultural stories are the hardest to fund at the moment. They typically are not supported by the market to the same extent as as other projects. Obviously, as a Scottish woman, that is very much the case in with Scottish projects and anything with a regional accent. I think those projects end up being very heavily dependent on low budgets, and low budgets are very difficult to achieve the level of quality that is required. But we have a skills base that punches above its weight in that, I think the crucial thing to understand is that independent producers are really very integral to the support of the PSB system, because we raise third party finance and deficit finance to supplement the funding that comes from broadcasters.
The broadcaster, I'm sure everyone knows does not fully fund any project, but taking those very specific, lower budget projects in that 1 to £3 million budget range out to the market is incredibly difficult, and that market money just doesn't exist for some projects. And that's where we really depend on the BBC and and UK public service broadcasters to support those sorts of stories. I would say at the moment those are the hardest to fund. The section in the middle has pretty much disappeared. So we are either making low budget projects or higher budget projects supported by the streamers.
The broadcaster, I'm sure everyone knows does not fully fund any project, but taking those very specific, lower budget projects in that 1 to £3 million budget range out to the market is incredibly difficult, and that market money just doesn't exist for some projects. And that's where we really depend on the BBC and and UK public service broadcasters to support those sorts of stories. I would say at the moment those are the hardest to fund. The section in the middle has pretty much disappeared. So we are either making low budget projects or higher budget projects supported by the streamers.
10:03
10:03
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
Well, in general at the moment, there are fewer opportunities across the piece. There are higher costs, there are stagnant or reducing commissioning tariffs, and that is leading to fewer opportunities for our, you know, future talent to come through the system. And a loss of cultural stories, diverse cultural stories, British cultural stories.
10:03
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Yeah. Just just to build on that, I would highlight independent UK film in particular has been challenged for a very long time, very, very difficult to get risk capital into film projects and film companies. And that's something we've been concerned about for a very long time. That is one of the engines of of development of talent, which then goes on to support the inward investment that forms so much of the production landscape in TV kids, unscripted. And as has been noted, that mid tier 1 to 3 million dramas, that is, you know, those are the ones that tend to be British stories, often commissioned by the SBS.
We've seen spend on US dramas in the 1 to 3 million budget range, and comedy fall by 250 million between 2023 and 2024. And that's not getting any better. Obviously, BBC funding has been cut by 25% over the last 16 years, with eight years of freezes. That has an enormous impact on the number of British stories that can be told. And a lot of those stories are now being told. Even though they're set in the UK, they're increasingly being filmed abroad. We've seen a massive increase in, you know, we're concerned about, you know, reassuring to the US.
But I think we need to look at reshoring back to the UK from some of those productions that have are now being you know, they should set in Yorkshire and filmed in in Hungary. We should be bringing bringing those back and we've got ideas for how to do that.
We've seen spend on US dramas in the 1 to 3 million budget range, and comedy fall by 250 million between 2023 and 2024. And that's not getting any better. Obviously, BBC funding has been cut by 25% over the last 16 years, with eight years of freezes. That has an enormous impact on the number of British stories that can be told. And a lot of those stories are now being told. Even though they're set in the UK, they're increasingly being filmed abroad. We've seen a massive increase in, you know, we're concerned about, you know, reassuring to the US.
But I think we need to look at reshoring back to the UK from some of those productions that have are now being you know, they should set in Yorkshire and filmed in in Hungary. We should be bringing bringing those back and we've got ideas for how to do that.
10:05
10:05
Rupa Huq
-
-
Rupa Huq
Yeah. Following on from that, thanks for the opening picture. We predicted in our report that the independent film Tax credit would be a game changer. I guess it's a two part question. I wanted to know, has that come to fruition and other smaller people getting the benefit of that? And then also, Pete, you mentioned I mean, it seems that a lot of the UK's recent success has been driven by overseas investment. Even the trips we've done to Warner , Universal, all those are big names that have relocated here. Even Ealing Studios, the world's longest continuous working film studio.
I've seen how they've remodeled it to include top notch accommodation that Hollywood stars can stay in when they're making a production. How much do you think maybe it's a Pete question that this is in danger from all the inducements that Trump is offering. So did it work? Is it in peril now?
I've seen how they've remodeled it to include top notch accommodation that Hollywood stars can stay in when they're making a production. How much do you think maybe it's a Pete question that this is in danger from all the inducements that Trump is offering. So did it work? Is it in peril now?
10:05
Alison Hume
-
-
Alison Hume
Shall I start on the did it did it work? So I FTC, I mean incredibly welcome intervention. We committed that we will publish the an impact assessment of that in 2027. We just don't have enough data at the moment to to give an impact. But what we can say is that we've got 400 projects have been through final certification. We've got about another 150 at interim stage. So there are definitely a significant number of projects who are benefiting. And at an anecdotal level, we are we're seeing those films on screen now. And I think a lovely example is, I swear, where I was speaking to the filmmaker behind I swear last week, and I mean, that film could not be made without the independent film Tax Relief.
It was a film that the commercial market just would not step up and get involved in. There was too much swearing, and at the time, the lead in that wasn't a household name, obviously. Subsequently they managed with the IFC to make that film. It reached, you know, box offices worldwide responded really, really well to that film. It told an incredibly authentic, based in Scotland story around the Tourettes community that people wouldn't have been able to see without that tax relief. So, you know, we know that these films are getting made with that with that support.
But Pete's just talked about, you know, the point is you need to crowd in other funding around that to make the projects really viable.
It was a film that the commercial market just would not step up and get involved in. There was too much swearing, and at the time, the lead in that wasn't a household name, obviously. Subsequently they managed with the IFC to make that film. It reached, you know, box offices worldwide responded really, really well to that film. It told an incredibly authentic, based in Scotland story around the Tourettes community that people wouldn't have been able to see without that tax relief. So, you know, we know that these films are getting made with that with that support.
But Pete's just talked about, you know, the point is you need to crowd in other funding around that to make the projects really viable.
10:07
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Yeah. And just to build on that, I think absolutely echo Harriet's point about a lot of projects being made that would not have been made without that tax relief. And I think we'll increasingly see that come come through over the the future figures. But I would also say that if we want to get the biggest possible bang for the buck that we're spending on the FTC, then we need to think about other parts of the value chain as well. So incentivising more risk, investment in in independent film production companies would would help in order to raise funds to be able to get the budgets to get the, the tax relief.
And then at the other end, making sure they can get seen in cinemas. An awful lot of those films do not have a significant cinema run, and that's partly because the funding isn't there to market them effectively. It's a crowded attention economy. If you haven't got the big star, you can't afford Tom cruise in an independent British film, then you've got to have a decent marketing spend. I know the committee has been very supportive of the the film distribution tax expenditure credit proposal. We were hoping that that might emerge from the budget. We've just seen.
It hasn't. But we still believe that that would have a significant impact. And it's it's pretty much self-funding in terms of the additional VAT that's projected to come back to the Exchequer through that, but projected to have, you know, a return on investment of £6.52 for every £1 of tax credit, which is a pretty good return on investment. But if people aren't seeing the films, then they don't make the money. And that that builds the value in subsequent windows and markets as well. If it's had a cinema release, if it's got that breakthrough in public consciousness, it then has a higher resale value in other markets and, and other windows.
So I think that's, that's really, really important. And then you mentioned the balance between inward investment and domestic production. We have been fantastic successful in attracting inward investment. And that's a really good thing. An awful lot of jobs depend upon that. We're really, really good at it. In 2025, 91% of film production in this country was inward investment and only 7% was domestic. Now, I think the trick we need to pull off here is to retain and build that inward investment. We don't want to lose any of that, but also to recognise that we need a stronger domestic economy as well.
So we're not so subject to the vagaries of, you know, tax credits in the US drawing back US production.
And then at the other end, making sure they can get seen in cinemas. An awful lot of those films do not have a significant cinema run, and that's partly because the funding isn't there to market them effectively. It's a crowded attention economy. If you haven't got the big star, you can't afford Tom cruise in an independent British film, then you've got to have a decent marketing spend. I know the committee has been very supportive of the the film distribution tax expenditure credit proposal. We were hoping that that might emerge from the budget. We've just seen.
It hasn't. But we still believe that that would have a significant impact. And it's it's pretty much self-funding in terms of the additional VAT that's projected to come back to the Exchequer through that, but projected to have, you know, a return on investment of £6.52 for every £1 of tax credit, which is a pretty good return on investment. But if people aren't seeing the films, then they don't make the money. And that that builds the value in subsequent windows and markets as well. If it's had a cinema release, if it's got that breakthrough in public consciousness, it then has a higher resale value in other markets and, and other windows.
So I think that's, that's really, really important. And then you mentioned the balance between inward investment and domestic production. We have been fantastic successful in attracting inward investment. And that's a really good thing. An awful lot of jobs depend upon that. We're really, really good at it. In 2025, 91% of film production in this country was inward investment and only 7% was domestic. Now, I think the trick we need to pull off here is to retain and build that inward investment. We don't want to lose any of that, but also to recognise that we need a stronger domestic economy as well.
So we're not so subject to the vagaries of, you know, tax credits in the US drawing back US production.
10:09
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
I would just like to add to that and say that the tax credits, when they were originally introduced, were designed to give producers equity in their own productions in order to, you know, increase their IP stake in a project. The tax credits now are absolutely non-negotiable. Every single every single project requires tax credit in independent film and increasingly television, which is now being financed like independent film. But I think we need to look at the tax credits in the round, because there are lots of mechanisms there. You mentioned the R&D tax credit earlier on, which is I can't stress how crucial that is for independent production companies, because the availability of development financing, which used to be fairly, you know, good certainly amongst the broadcasters, the UK broadcasters, that is under severe pressure.
We know the BBC have cut their development funding by 10%. And the the availability of that funding is just very hard to come by without that. And given that it can take anything from 18 months to six years, ten years to get a project to screen, we have no pipeline to production. So the tax credits are absolutely essential. And and we just need to strengthen them and where we can increase them, perhaps, you know, widen the scope of the criteria when it comes to the R&D tax credit, particularly.
We know the BBC have cut their development funding by 10%. And the the availability of that funding is just very hard to come by without that. And given that it can take anything from 18 months to six years, ten years to get a project to screen, we have no pipeline to production. So the tax credits are absolutely essential. And and we just need to strengthen them and where we can increase them, perhaps, you know, widen the scope of the criteria when it comes to the R&D tax credit, particularly.
10:10
10:11
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
And we're seeing a lot of that production go to Ireland as a result. And I think, you know that we are looking as an industry together, working together to look at. You know, how that package of support for the sector might be improved to, to, to help drive, you know, reassure some of that activity and grow the domestic production. In particular, we need a stronger domestic sector that needs to run through the value chain from, you know, raising finance to how consumers actually get to see the content at the other end.
10:11
10:11
Cameron Thomas
-
-
Cameron Thomas
Thank you. Chair, can I refer honourable members to my register of members interests? I used to be Financial Secretary to the Treasury. So I'll claim some credit for the financial incentives there, but also some of the blame for not getting it 100% right as well, probably. Claire, I've got a very brief question for you and probably others build on here in terms of you've said that the tax credits are really important, but my challenge is, are they really. And what I want to say here is, is it the case that actually we would do quite well anyway, because we've just just got such incredible talent, you know, in front of the camera and behind the camera talent, we've got amazing facilities, studios and so on.
So my question is if the if those tax incentives didn't exist, could we be confident that we would still have a thriving film and TV industry because of those other incredible success factors? No, no. Right. I can.
So my question is if the if those tax incentives didn't exist, could we be confident that we would still have a thriving film and TV industry because of those other incredible success factors? No, no. Right. I can.
10:12
10:12
10:12
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
Yeah. No, because the global marketplace is extremely competitive with with incentives and producers follow the money. So we see lots of projects being made. You know, in the UK, obviously we see American projects come to UK cities and double US cities and places like Glasgow and other parts of the UK. So without those incentives, no, I think a lot of our talent is overseas and would move overseas. We would lose our talent, in fact, because they would also follow the opportunities.
10:13
Bayo Alaba
-
-
Bayo Alaba
Thank you. Chair. This question is to Harriet. We asked the BFI to sort of look at sort of targeted tax credits, sort of uplifts specifically sort of in the sort of 1 to 3 million sort of range for high end TV. Now, you touched on sort of distribution challenges, global reduction, international increasing, international competition increasing. So and I know some of my colleagues have touched on and some some of the other aspects. You also mentioned that impact assessment. That's not been done yet. So I kind of want to sort of zero in on that. What would you need to do in order for the impact assessment to sort of happen?
How long would it take and what else do you think you could potentially find if that was to be put in place?
How long would it take and what else do you think you could potentially find if that was to be put in place?
10:13
Alison Hume
-
-
Alison Hume
Right. So in terms of the impact assessment that is around the impact of the independent film Tax relief, which was introduced in April 2024. So we just need enough data through to be able to, to finalize that impact assessment, which will be published as a chapter of our Screen Business report, which will be coming out next year, which looks very importantly, actually relating to all of this, is that all these tax incentives have a return on investment. And I think that's really important to remember that they are not a subsidy for the sector. They are very definitely an incentive for the sector.
And the last Green Business report showed that for every £1 of film, it was over £8 in terms of return on investment. And for every £1 of high end television, it was over £6 of return on investment. So whenever we're looking at introducing tax reliefs, it's absolutely vital that we're able to show that there will be an economic return for them. As Pete has already said, in terms of that distribution tax relief. So in terms of the work around the TV relief, which was recommended. So we did work with the high end television group providing data in the run up to a previous budget.
It wasn't taken forward at budget. But I think, as Claire has spoken really clearly to, is that we are in a world where the paradigm is continuing to shift away from being a clear way to fund some of those lower budget, high end TV. So we would very much hope that we'll continue to work very closely with the high end TV group as we head towards next budgets. It will be part of this work we're doing, which Peter has alluded to. There is a moment where we just need to have a think about the paradigm is shifting, is our policy framework, and is our tax incentive framework absolutely optimized to ensure we can keep benefiting from the growth, the international growth, but also that domestic growth as well?
And the last Green Business report showed that for every £1 of film, it was over £8 in terms of return on investment. And for every £1 of high end television, it was over £6 of return on investment. So whenever we're looking at introducing tax reliefs, it's absolutely vital that we're able to show that there will be an economic return for them. As Pete has already said, in terms of that distribution tax relief. So in terms of the work around the TV relief, which was recommended. So we did work with the high end television group providing data in the run up to a previous budget.
It wasn't taken forward at budget. But I think, as Claire has spoken really clearly to, is that we are in a world where the paradigm is continuing to shift away from being a clear way to fund some of those lower budget, high end TV. So we would very much hope that we'll continue to work very closely with the high end TV group as we head towards next budgets. It will be part of this work we're doing, which Peter has alluded to. There is a moment where we just need to have a think about the paradigm is shifting, is our policy framework, and is our tax incentive framework absolutely optimized to ensure we can keep benefiting from the growth, the international growth, but also that domestic growth as well?
10:15
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
I think I think the, the, the incentives, you know, they provide a framework for us to be able to compete at the highest level. You know, the door is open for UK talent, UK production, UK projects because we're recognized for our high level of skills and around the world. But, but the world is very competitive. And in the production community, we're very concerned about the proposed US incentives that are on the horizon and what they will do to inward investment in the UK, and inward investment in turn, creates lots of training opportunities for, you know, existing crew members to, to, to move from a certain budget level to another budget level.
It provides opportunities for on screen talent and production companies as well, who, although they might not retain IP in those scenarios, they provide valuable services and that enables them to have income to develop their own projects in order to, you know, be providing domestic projects as well to the market. So that that really worries the production community. And I think we, you know, we have a great foundation with the UK tax credit system, but I think we have to not be complacent about, you know, how we could improve on that.
It provides opportunities for on screen talent and production companies as well, who, although they might not retain IP in those scenarios, they provide valuable services and that enables them to have income to develop their own projects in order to, you know, be providing domestic projects as well to the market. So that that really worries the production community. And I think we, you know, we have a great foundation with the UK tax credit system, but I think we have to not be complacent about, you know, how we could improve on that.
10:17
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
And I think that skills development point is, is one of the tragedies of the amount of offshoring from the UK to other territories that's going on at the moment, because particularly if you look at dramas in the sort of half 1 million to 1 million an hour range, which don't currently qualify for the tax reliefs at all, because there's £1 million threshold, as the committee will know. You know, every time one of those gets gets done in Hungary, that's a load of Hungarian workers who are being trained and getting experience rather than British workers. And that's the level at which people often get, you know, either their first role or their first role in a more senior position.
They're gaining those credits, but it's it's Hungarian workers who are getting those credits, not British workers.
They're gaining those credits, but it's it's Hungarian workers who are getting those credits, not British workers.
10:17
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
It's also about longer term cultural relevance for our audiences and, you know, reflecting the diversity of British life on screen, which is, I think, really under threat. And we have to protect that. And, you know, the BBC in particular is at the heart of that. And, you know, more certainty over the the funding scenarios for the BBC and the ways in which the BBC has a responsibility to reflect nations and regions productions is really critical to that as well.
10:18
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
I really don't think you can overstate how important a decent funding settlement for the BBC is for the whole sector. I think we all we all depend on having that engine at the centre of it, spreading growth throughout the whole of the UK and delivering, you know, British stories. It's absolutely vital to the health of.
10:18
10:18
Liz Jarvis
-
-
Liz Jarvis
Thank you. Chair. Our report raised concerns about performance rights, consent and historic contracts, and it concluded that current copyright, IP and data protection laws do not adequately protect performers from unauthorized voice cloning, deepfakes, or the use of recorded performances to train AI systems. What progress has been made since the committee reported in enabling the screen sector to benefit from AI while protecting copyright, creative rights and UK owned intellectual property? I'm happy to.
10:19
Alison Hume
-
-
Alison Hume
Start with that one. Thanks very much. Well, actually, one of your recommendations, very definitely fed through in terms of supporting the government's thinking around copyright. And we're very pleased that they moved away from their opt out option, which was on the table previously. I mean, for the sector, there are there are two sides to this coin. As you've completely rightly pointed out, there is a side around protection and that that is absolutely key. And we're expecting some further news from the government in terms of what the legislative framework that could sit around AI will look like, and in terms of the creative, we absolutely need that kind of legislative certainty around copyright, around personality rights, around digital replicas to be in place, to know sort of where it is that we can safely innovate.
So very much. That's one side of the coin. The other side is making sure that our creators and our filmmakers in this country have a really clear understanding of the tools they can use, what the sort of ethical guardrails are on those tools, and are allowed to experiment with framework and guidance, which is super, really, really clear. So the since the report has been published, the BFI has put 1.2 million of funding into innovation R&D, specifically around AI. Just this morning, actually, we've announced something called In Our Hands, which is a really practical funding of NFTs, National Film and Television School and Falmouth University, to create two programmes of R&D which will take creators, allow them to experiment with tools, understand what works, what doesn't work, understand where skills training is needed around these tools, understand where guidance is needed in terms of how to ethically use these tools and understand ultimately what sort of guardrails need to be put around, particularly the independent filmmakers who would like to be experimenting in this space.
So next year, the BFI is going to publish some guidance and guardrails around AI usage, and we hope that will be really, really helpful for the independent community. Make sure that we're on a level playing field with the larger studios, who obviously are either we've seen a lot of M&A activity take place in that space, so they're either buying in tools or they're working very closely. And we don't want independent filmmakers not to have the agency to work confidently with with AI. So some of it's guidance and guardrails, and some of it is around the legislative framework.
So very much. That's one side of the coin. The other side is making sure that our creators and our filmmakers in this country have a really clear understanding of the tools they can use, what the sort of ethical guardrails are on those tools, and are allowed to experiment with framework and guidance, which is super, really, really clear. So the since the report has been published, the BFI has put 1.2 million of funding into innovation R&D, specifically around AI. Just this morning, actually, we've announced something called In Our Hands, which is a really practical funding of NFTs, National Film and Television School and Falmouth University, to create two programmes of R&D which will take creators, allow them to experiment with tools, understand what works, what doesn't work, understand where skills training is needed around these tools, understand where guidance is needed in terms of how to ethically use these tools and understand ultimately what sort of guardrails need to be put around, particularly the independent filmmakers who would like to be experimenting in this space.
So next year, the BFI is going to publish some guidance and guardrails around AI usage, and we hope that will be really, really helpful for the independent community. Make sure that we're on a level playing field with the larger studios, who obviously are either we've seen a lot of M&A activity take place in that space, so they're either buying in tools or they're working very closely. And we don't want independent filmmakers not to have the agency to work confidently with with AI. So some of it's guidance and guardrails, and some of it is around the legislative framework.
10:22
10:22
10:22
10:22
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
I would just say that we've obviously engaged and our members have engaged directly with government and with the IPO throughout this process, and we continue to do so. A lot of these questions have now been presented, gifted to the IPO to work through with with various industry players to try and work out a solution to that. I mean, I was on the last time industry was asked to work through it together and it didn't really move things forward. So we're much more hopeful this time that we'll come to a solution, because I think more certainty would be very useful in terms of allowing people to invest in these tools and use them.
I think the trouble is, if you're not quite sure where the value is and what the liabilities are and all the rest of it, then that does retard use and investment. And I think we're keen to see that clarified.
I think the trouble is, if you're not quite sure where the value is and what the liabilities are and all the rest of it, then that does retard use and investment. And I think we're keen to see that clarified.
10:24
10:25
Alison Hume
-
-
Alison Hume
We've also done some of the work we've done with CoStar, which is the big network investment network and R&D network, which is sitting around the sector in terms of AI and AI usage. We've done some work around skills on that. We've published a preliminary report, but the next report is going to come out next year. Because you're absolutely right, is part of this is making sure that our workforce, either we're bringing in the right skills and making sure that it is appropriate. The skills we're people we're training now are appropriately skilled, but it's also about those transferable skills, about upskilling people who are already in the industry.
And that's what some of the work that we're doing in these innovation R&D labs will be around, making sure that existing filmmakers have the agency and tools to be able to work. So it's definitely something which we need to keep a very close eye on and something as well, in terms of thinking about that competitive advantage that we have as the UK, we've been really good at innovating. Our visual effects industry is absolutely extraordinary. So let's make sure that we're also fully equipped to make sure that we have our workforces equipped for this next wave of AI.
Thank you.
And that's what some of the work that we're doing in these innovation R&D labs will be around, making sure that existing filmmakers have the agency and tools to be able to work. So it's definitely something which we need to keep a very close eye on and something as well, in terms of thinking about that competitive advantage that we have as the UK, we've been really good at innovating. Our visual effects industry is absolutely extraordinary. So let's make sure that we're also fully equipped to make sure that we have our workforces equipped for this next wave of AI.
Thank you.
10:26
10:27
10:27
Alison Hume
-
-
Alison Hume
And can I declare an interest as chair of the all party parliamentary group on freelancers? Thank you very much for coming today, everybody. I wanted to ask all of you actually what you think the new freelance champions should prioritise to make a real, tangible difference to freelancers in film and high end TV. So, Pete, do you want to start?
10:28
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean, I think the real challenge at the moment for freelancers is, is finding work. We are I mean, despite what I said earlier about the sort of very strong positive prospects for growth over the long term, we're definitely in a bit of a contraction at the moment. And we've seen figures from the film and TV charity emphasizing the number of people who haven't found work. I think 74% of people surveyed in February of this, of this year considered leaving the sector because largely of those problems of finding work, and 22% had experienced sustained worklessness, which means being out of work and not having work for three months for more than three months in the previous 12.
So that's a big concern for freelancers at the moment. We had a long period of the the streaming wars boom, where freelancers were never short of work and were now in a very different environment in which it's quite difficult to sustain. I think I hope there will be more from the freelance champion. Will will be able to examine what more we might do to support freelancers. Other countries do do more to support their creative freelancers. We published a report, I think, beginning of the previous year called Make Freelancing Pay, which looked at how six other countries use different systems to support creative freelancers, because they recognize that in our sector, being out of work for a period of time is a certainty.
Not not , not a risk. And France has had its own measures in place for 100 years because of because of that, specifically for people working in the creative sector, Ireland's got a universal basic income for certain creative artists, which they've just made permanent after a three year trial. So I'm not I'm not saying any of those is the solution, but I think we do need to worry about maintaining a freelance workforce of sufficient scale so that when we do get into another upswing, we're not all trying to poach each other's workers again, which has happened in the past.
So that's a big concern for freelancers at the moment. We had a long period of the the streaming wars boom, where freelancers were never short of work and were now in a very different environment in which it's quite difficult to sustain. I think I hope there will be more from the freelance champion. Will will be able to examine what more we might do to support freelancers. Other countries do do more to support their creative freelancers. We published a report, I think, beginning of the previous year called Make Freelancing Pay, which looked at how six other countries use different systems to support creative freelancers, because they recognize that in our sector, being out of work for a period of time is a certainty.
Not not , not a risk. And France has had its own measures in place for 100 years because of because of that, specifically for people working in the creative sector, Ireland's got a universal basic income for certain creative artists, which they've just made permanent after a three year trial. So I'm not I'm not saying any of those is the solution, but I think we do need to worry about maintaining a freelance workforce of sufficient scale so that when we do get into another upswing, we're not all trying to poach each other's workers again, which has happened in the past.
10:32
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
Well, and we'll we'll face a particular issue in that scenario, given the number of people that are leaving the industry because of the instability of it. I mean, it is structural. It comes back to all the structural points that we've been discussing and the and the framework of incentives and, and support that that we need in the industry because the, the engine room of the industry are the freelance community, you know, that no, no television project, no high end drama, no independent feature film is made without the freelance community. And they are having a really tough time at the moment.
And that is why I think the mechanisms that are in place just have to be strengthened and increased and protected, and also so that we don't lose the skills pipeline in Scotland, for example, Outlander, which I'm sure everybody knows or has heard of at least over a period of a decade, you know, trained hundreds of, of new entrants to the industry. You know, we saw young people come in as trainee runners and leave as executive producers. And that is the level of, you know, opportunity that we need to find a way of being consistent with across the board.
And the industry and the freelance community are coming together, you know, but but the bedrock of it exists with successful, sustainable businesses that can retain their own IP thanks to the terms of trade that can be, you know, have a long term plan and have some certainty over what the commissioning opportunities on the landscape are. That's very difficult at the moment. If you don't know what the commissioning opportunities are, it's impossible to plan your business without that. It's it's very hard to give any certainty to the freelance community as to what is coming down the line in a year or 18 months.
This year alone in Scotland, we've seen a significant reduction in the number of projects filming in the last six months. And, you know, we will see people leave the industry and we are seeing that just now. But it has to again, it has to be discussed structurally.
And that is why I think the mechanisms that are in place just have to be strengthened and increased and protected, and also so that we don't lose the skills pipeline in Scotland, for example, Outlander, which I'm sure everybody knows or has heard of at least over a period of a decade, you know, trained hundreds of, of new entrants to the industry. You know, we saw young people come in as trainee runners and leave as executive producers. And that is the level of, you know, opportunity that we need to find a way of being consistent with across the board.
And the industry and the freelance community are coming together, you know, but but the bedrock of it exists with successful, sustainable businesses that can retain their own IP thanks to the terms of trade that can be, you know, have a long term plan and have some certainty over what the commissioning opportunities on the landscape are. That's very difficult at the moment. If you don't know what the commissioning opportunities are, it's impossible to plan your business without that. It's it's very hard to give any certainty to the freelance community as to what is coming down the line in a year or 18 months.
This year alone in Scotland, we've seen a significant reduction in the number of projects filming in the last six months. And, you know, we will see people leave the industry and we are seeing that just now. But it has to again, it has to be discussed structurally.
10:36
10:36
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
And, and their talent and their experience is what makes production possible. You know, an average well, in a low budget drama, you know, you might be looking at a crew of 150, but in a higher budget drama, you could have 4 or 500 people there. And so the loss of, of production opportunities is, is really worrying to that freelance community. And if we lose their skills at either end, the top end or the bottom end, then when you know, a boom comes again, we're back in that position of having to train new entrants. And we would lose the benefit of the long term planning that, you know, so much care and attention has been has been taken over.
10:38
Alison Hume
-
-
Alison Hume
Thank you. Do you want to add anything, Harriet? No, I think it's been beautifully covered. And I just just thinking back to what you said earlier about the US incentives and the impact that could have if if they go ahead, if that makes the UK less attractive for internationally, less competitive internationally, is there a particular support mechanism or protection that you would want to be available for freelancers in that scenario? Is there something that would be an obvious thing that should be put in place to support them?
10:39
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
I mean, I think I think to, to be positive about the opportunities, you know, the UK freelance community are amongst the most talented, most skilled, most internationally recognised practitioners in the world. So, you know, we are starting from a position of strength. I think, again, I come back to the framework of tax credits and incentives. Those are the biggest opportunity for us. And if we can increase our incentives and have a suite of incentives that has a kind of, as you said earlier on, you know, an eco system, that's our biggest protection. I think, you know, people will still come to the UK for our not just our, our talent and our crews, but also our locations, you know, our legacy, our history.
But we just can't be complacent because, you know, you can make anything look like anywhere, you know, with a bit of skilled production expertise. Thank you.
But we just can't be complacent because, you know, you can make anything look like anywhere, you know, with a bit of skilled production expertise. Thank you.
10:41
Caroline Dinenage
-
-
Caroline Dinenage
Thanks, chair. Can I just ask about the the freelancer community? Once again, we seem to be spending far too much time this week talking about the misbehaviour and in some cases, criminal acts of gentleman in the media abusing their their power and their their influence. It always occurs to me that freelancers must be the most vulnerable when it comes to dealing with. People of this nature. Are you confident that enough is happening within the film and high end TV sector, particularly to protect protect freelancers, but also younger, more vulnerable members of staff who might be open to, you know, this form of of exploitation and abuse.
Harry.
Harry.
10:42
Alison Hume
-
-
Alison Hume
I'm happy to start on that. So I think there are sort of three areas that need to be thought of. And freelancers. We've just talked in terms of how vital they are to the sector. But I think we also need to make sure that we understand their needs, what it feels to be like a freelancer in the sector. And I have to say, the work of the film and TV charity is excellent. I'm sure you're aware of it. They published their latest mental health survey yesterday. So I think a real regard for those who work within our sector and what it feels like to be in our sector is key.
And the freelance champions will have a really big role to play in that,
And the freelance champions will have a really big role to play in that,
10:43
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
For those who work within our sector and what it feels like to be in our sector is key, and the freelance. champions will have a really big role to play in that, and there'll be data that will come from that as well, which helps inform on that side. The other piece of the puzzle is going to be good work. So the Policy and Evidence. good work framework is something that we've been working on for the past few years at the BFI. We have funding into something called work wise. The trouble with the freelance, very freelance heavy.
workforce is that you don't necessarily have some of the SMEs.
workforce is that you don't necessarily have some of the SMEs.
10:44
10:44
10:44
10:45
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Free tool that is funded through National Lottery, which gives practical guidance around employment law. It gives practical templates for HR documents. It gives advice on human, you know, human resources and relations and media advice and training as well. So it's a practical place to go to help those who are employing. freelancers understand how to create a better, safer working environment for freelancers. And then obviously, the other part of it is Cisa and the role that Cisa play in terms of setting these standards of. behaviour across the sector. So the sort of feels that there are three prongs there, perhaps not working as closely together as they could be at the moment, but I think with the freelance champions now in place and they're certainly sitting out their work plan in the new year, good work becoming increasingly well understood.
And See-Saw obviously is .
And See-Saw obviously is .
10:46
10:46
10:46
10:47
10:47
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
You know, it obviously has existed and probably continues to exist in some pockets of the industry. I'm also the Scottish. representative on Packed Council for Packed and packed works very closely. It is working very closely with CSA and has been involved in helping shape the standards that CSA is proposing. I think you can't. underestimate the the power. imbalance between a.
10:47
10:47
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
You know, younger entrants to the industry and, you know, powerful individuals in front of and behind the camera. So I think the industry in general. welcomes the, the addition of support packed has a free HR helpline for all members. And we also have all of the standards on our website as well. I think production. companies are very clear. Reputable production companies are very clear on their.
responsibilities to the broadcasters, to their crew and their community. But we just cannot be too, you know,
responsibilities to the broadcasters, to their crew and their community. But we just cannot be too, you know,
10:49
10:49
Speaker 3
-
Speaker 3
Vigilant on this because it's such a such an endemic issue. Thank you. I'd just add that in addition to obviously, the work that's been done collectively by sector through through Cisa and, you know, the reporting service opened last month, there's also a lot of work being done by individual companies as well to change their procedures and make sure they've got. appropriate procedures in place to, to deal with reporting effectively. So, I mean, there's still obviously the problem isn't solved, but a lot of work has been done. And there's I think there's a fairly pan sector .
10:50
10:50
Speaker 3
-
Speaker 3
Do you get a sense that it's sort of filtering through and that it is actually making a difference on the ground? Well, I mean, the thing about culture then trumping. strategy every time, and I think that cultures take time to change, but I think there is more of a commitment now. It is. recognised as being something that the industry needs to take very, very seriously. I think you've seen that. You know, we only know about the things we've been reading over the past few days because of investigative journalism. involving the TV, TV companies themselves. So I think that's a sign of people taking it.
seriously and wanting to shine a light. And hopefully that helps drive the cultural change that we need to see within our sector, but also across other sectors as well. Because, you know, we're not the only sector, it's just .
seriously and wanting to shine a light. And hopefully that helps drive the cultural change that we need to see within our sector, but also across other sectors as well. Because, you know, we're not the only sector, it's just .
10:52
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
We have famous people so that both facilitates but also makes it newsworthy. Yeah. I mean, on the ground, all, all crews have mandatory training that they have to conduct before we enter production. And there are clear reporting lines to. broadcasters for for anything that occurs. There's also a always to safeguarding. representatives on any production. So I think all the work that has been done is helping to, to change that culture with practical .
10:53
10:53
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Final messages. You wish to land with us? Harriet Finney? I think, I mean, I think we've talked a lot about the. competitiveness and the landscape, and I think I really would just urge the committee to think about things have moved on. Things have changed since we last gave evidence. The sector we have a really strong track record of working very, very closely together, and we're going to be doing that in terms of, say, just. assessing this new environment that we're working with, making sure that we are absolutely.
10:54
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Both in terms of that. competitiveness piece and the particularly the domestic sector as well. So these are really important because it's not just, you know, these are the stories we create which help us all understand each other better, but they're also how we are viewed externally by the world. The UK having a really strong film and TV sector is, is unbelievably important in terms of that sort of soft power piece. So I would absolutely urge that the. recommendations that are outstanding from the last time round are raised again. And then I would just say National Lottery, you know, that continues to be something which underpins it really is the kind of grassroots bedrock of our sector.
And sitting. alongside PSB. Just can't. underestimate how. important that funding is. And one of the reasons, you know, that is the independent film Tax Relief, all the major studios came in behind that. None of them are going to gain anything from the independent tax relief, but they understand having a really healthy. thriving UK domestic production .
And sitting. alongside PSB. Just can't. underestimate how. important that funding is. And one of the reasons, you know, that is the independent film Tax Relief, all the major studios came in behind that. None of them are going to gain anything from the independent tax relief, but they understand having a really healthy. thriving UK domestic production .
10:56
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
So those are really my main points. Thank you very much. I would just a few things. The central role of the BBC. That's crucial, but also holding the BBC to account on its, you know, economic. responsibilities to support and develop the industry for the longer term in the nations and regions and improve on the the work that's been done to date, but also so that those areas do not become vulnerable to the impact of.
10:58
10:58
10:58
10:58
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
You know, up and down the UK. And I think we just can't be complacent about that. And the BBC is at the centre of that, and they have to be held to account on that responsibility. I, I have heard a talk of interesting ideas about how to support some of these areas that are at risk, such as a public service media fund, perhaps, which might take the shape of something like the the kids tax, sorry, the children's fund that was that was around a few years ago that would specifically focus on projects that are at risk, like kids and comedy and a regional production.
And yeah, just the underpinning of the terms of trade, which are crucial to the. entrepreneurial health of the .
And yeah, just the underpinning of the terms of trade, which are crucial to the. entrepreneurial health of the .
10:59
10:59
10:59
Speaker 3
-
Speaker 3
But they're all connected. We're happy with the shopping list. Finally, I was going to emphasize that. interrelated point. It's a complex. ecosystem and changes in one area can have very significant ripple effects throughout the whole area. So I need to be part of the. success of the UK is having that strong balance between PSB, which is unique. You know that no one else has something like the BBC. We don't realize that in this country because there's nobody born without the BBC existing. I don't think anymore in this country, but nobody else has that. That is really, really important.
But also, you know what the commercial side brings, the commercial.
But also, you know what the commercial side brings, the commercial.
11:01
11:01
Speaker 3
-
Speaker 3
The independents bring to it. It's a very complex but very successful sector. And the other thing I'd emphasize is the creative industry sector plan has an ambition to increase investment in the sector from. 17 billion to, I think. 31 billion by 2035. It's not entirely clear how we're going to get there. There is obviously the industrial strategy capital the British business Bank has. My own concern is how much of that ends up with film and TV, with video games in our sector, because traditionally we haven't been very good at. connecting that sort of initiative with our sector because we operate in a slightly unusual way.
A lot of that. funding from British Business Bank goes through existing venture capital funds. Very few of those are focused on our sector. So you're automatically sort of shut out. And I'd contrast that with what the Spanish are doing at the moment with their capital funds, where they're targeting.
A lot of that. funding from British Business Bank goes through existing venture capital funds. Very few of those are focused on our sector. So you're automatically sort of shut out. And I'd contrast that with what the Spanish are doing at the moment with their capital funds, where they're targeting.
11:03
11:03
Speaker 3
-
Speaker 3
There's £4 billion for the British Business Bank. None of that is ring fenced for our sector. It could it could all go to tech and life sciences, which are great. But if we are a frontier. industry as part as film and TV are, and video games is within the industrial sector priority industries which we are as creative.
11:03
11:03
11:03
11:03
11:04
11:04
11:09
Caroline Dinenage
-
-
Caroline Dinenage
Welcome back to our second panel this morning. We're now joined by the Right Honourable Ian Murray MP, the Minister for the Creative Industries, Media and Online Safety Now as well. And Georgia Hutchinson, who is the Director of Creative Industries and Artificial intelligence at the Department of Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, welcome to you both. And again, thank you for bearing with us after we postponed this session from September. It's lovely to have you. I should remind everybody before we start, that we will suspend very briefly at 11 a.m. for a two minute silence, just in case.
I forgot to mention that earlier. I'm going to start us off with the first question on the next panel. And actually, the first thing I wanted to talk to you about, Minister, is overnight we heard the news from the America that the BBC entirely related to film and high end TV, but we had the the news overnight from the BBC. The BBC court case is going to continue, that it hasn't been thrown out on the basis of it not being relevant.
I forgot to mention that earlier. I'm going to start us off with the first question on the next panel. And actually, the first thing I wanted to talk to you about, Minister, is overnight we heard the news from the America that the BBC entirely related to film and high end TV, but we had the the news overnight from the BBC. The BBC court case is going to continue, that it hasn't been thrown out on the basis of it not being relevant.
11:12
11:12
11:13
Caroline Dinenage
-
-
Caroline Dinenage
To be a matter for the BBC, and they're supported in that. And and again, it's been quite a busy week this week, but once again, we appear to be spending far too much of our time talking about the misbehavior and in some cases, criminal acts of of men in the media abusing positions of power. What's your initial reaction? What are you asking the TV and media sector to do so that we have real cultural change and .
11:14
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
Cases like Russell Brand don't hit the headlines again? I mean, I think we're all deeply saddened and also angry that we're back here again, talking about these issues. The culture and this sector for many years hasn't been good. Going back to all the well-documented cases that we know about, we've got to support the brave women that are coming forward, not just women, but brave women in particular. In these particular cases. We've now seen, obviously, the allegations against David Walliams that are being reported in the press today as well. The Secretary of State has said this morning she will be convening the sector to try and see what we can do more in this area, and I think we just need to continue to send out a message as a government, as a parliament, but also as.
11:15
11:15
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
That this is completely unacceptable behaviour. We want to make sure it's stamped out. This industry has in the past been rife with it. It's a cultural problem and that culture has to change, and we will do everything we possibly can to make sure it does change through the systems that we have, and also the influence that we can have with with convening people together. But the message has to be very clear. It's completely unacceptable. And there should be a zero tolerance approach with support for the brave .
11:16
11:16
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
Address how NDAs are being. abused in circumstances like this? Yeah, I mean, it's a major part of the problem, of course, with NDAs, but it is a it is a David versus Goliath issue. If you're up against a major star such as Russell Brand, it's very frightening to be able to report that. But also you have to be confident that systems are in place for you to be able to do that.
11:17
11:17
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
That you'll be listened to, and then there'll be action taken. And all of these instances, it appears that people are frightened to take on that Goliath. And you can understand why when you when people are in positions of power, particularly men, it's frightening. It's career damaging, career limiting, if not even career ending. And these things are the things that government are wrestling with in terms of how we put the best possible framework in place to support people, but also to make .
11:18
11:18
Caroline Dinenage
-
-
Caroline Dinenage
Cultural changes so we don't have to support people because it doesn't happen in the first place. Thank you. Moving on to the substance of what we meant to discuss with you today. It's 18 months since we sent our report. What overall assessment have the department made of the health and the trajectory.
11:18
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
Of the film and high end TV sector right now? Minister? Well, look, it's a it's a jewel in the crown of the UK are creative industries are. But particularly our film and high end TV industry. It's something that I've often said that there's not another country in the world that wouldn't give the right arm for just a proportion of what we do in this country, for a whole host of reasons our history, our culture, the language, and people want to be making stuff content here. And so the culture of the industry here is fantastic in terms of what we provide to the world.
In terms of that, during the Crown, the figures are there for all to see in terms of its growth potential, but also it's very fragile. And we can see the figures that have been published from the BFI this week. These are just a snapshot, of course, and we need to be careful. We don't make too many big conclusions, but the headwinds are there for all to see and people realise that. The other countries realise that the UK is very, very competitive in this marketplace, very good at it and are trying to eat our lunch. We have to be cognizant of that.
But I think the sector is is healthy, but it is fragile and we .
In terms of that, during the Crown, the figures are there for all to see in terms of its growth potential, but also it's very fragile. And we can see the figures that have been published from the BFI this week. These are just a snapshot, of course, and we need to be careful. We don't make too many big conclusions, but the headwinds are there for all to see and people realise that. The other countries realise that the UK is very, very competitive in this marketplace, very good at it and are trying to eat our lunch. We have to be cognizant of that.
But I think the sector is is healthy, but it is fragile and we .
11:20
Caroline Dinenage
-
-
Caroline Dinenage
Have to make sure we're supporting the bits that are fragile and encouraging the bits that are healthy. One of the recommendations that we made that the government rejected was rejoining Creative Europe. It did say that it would consider future participation in international programmes on a case by case basis. So why won't it pursue .
11:21
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
Associate participation in the media strand of the Agora EU? Well, we've had our first high level meeting between the UK and the EU with Commissioner Micallef, who's very supportive. And we're constantly in dialogue about what the relationship should be between the UK and the EU in this area. And we chose not to participate in Creative Europe. That programme, of course, has now closed. As you know, it will close at the end of this financial year in. March 2027 and then the Agora EU. There's three strands of that the cultural strand, the media strand and the social strand of that.
And the EU are developing what that's going to look like. We don't yet know. They don't yet know what the. finalised structure will that look like or what the cost would be. We're always in discussion with the commissioner, but we have to balance this up against what is to the benefit of our own industry and what is not, alongside the public services funding challenges that we have. Obviously, we've rejoined Erasmus and Canopy, that we've rejoined the horizon programme, the forerunner to the horizon programme. So there is a number of strands that we've been looking at.
EU touring is a big part of this, of course, as well. From the creative industries side, it's not quite directly related to film and high end TV, and that was mentioned in the EU, UK Summit Agreement from May 2025. And of course, we have the summit coming up in November, and we look forward to that relationship being deepened. But we're in discussions with these all the time with the commissioner and .
And the EU are developing what that's going to look like. We don't yet know. They don't yet know what the. finalised structure will that look like or what the cost would be. We're always in discussion with the commissioner, but we have to balance this up against what is to the benefit of our own industry and what is not, alongside the public services funding challenges that we have. Obviously, we've rejoined Erasmus and Canopy, that we've rejoined the horizon programme, the forerunner to the horizon programme. So there is a number of strands that we've been looking at.
EU touring is a big part of this, of course, as well. From the creative industries side, it's not quite directly related to film and high end TV, and that was mentioned in the EU, UK Summit Agreement from May 2025. And of course, we have the summit coming up in November, and we look forward to that relationship being deepened. But we're in discussions with these all the time with the commissioner and .
11:24
11:24
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
That you haven't written off getting involved with Agora EU? Well, look, we have at this stage, but we're open minded to see what it looks like. They haven't finalised what the plans look like yet. They haven't finalized what strands will be and what will be the input to those strands. And we're obviously in constant dialogue through our cultural exchanges with the Commissioner Micallef on those. So, you know, we're we aren't we don't have any plans at this stage to join any of the strands of .
11:25
11:25
11:25
11:25
11:26
11:26
11:26
11:26
Liz Jarvis
-
-
Liz Jarvis
Screen heritage and UK storytelling. Yet the government has begun reviewing the lottery distribution model without setting out what production will be given, what protection sorry will be given to the BFI funding? How can the screen sector have. confidence that reform will not result in film losing.
11:27
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
Funding to more immediately visible or locally determined priorities? Thank you. It's a great question. I think that it's really important to say at the outset that the National Lottery Review will not affect people's funding as it sits at the moment. This is about a review of what would happen in future funding. So in the future, additional funding. So the core money that goes to the BFI in terms of your question will not fall as a result of the the work that we're doing with regards to the National Lottery Review, but it's also about looking at good causes , are both.
impactful and doing the things that the public want them to do. This is public money, after all, the. £1.8 billion or so every year that goes into good causes is coming from the purchasers of National Lottery tickets. So that review is about ensuring the system reflects those priorities from local localities, but also to make sure that they are identifying those community needs, but really, really important to lay out so that nobody is under any illusions in the sector that the the funding that is currently distributed will not fall as a result of the review.
impactful and doing the things that the public want them to do. This is public money, after all, the. £1.8 billion or so every year that goes into good causes is coming from the purchasers of National Lottery tickets. So that review is about ensuring the system reflects those priorities from local localities, but also to make sure that they are identifying those community needs, but really, really important to lay out so that nobody is under any illusions in the sector that the the funding that is currently distributed will not fall as a result of the review.
11:29
11:29
11:29
11:29
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
You know, the Prime Minister has set out very clearly that he wants growth in every postcode. Growth in every postcode in many parts of the country means we have to have that that growth from this sector. And so we're measuring all that data and tracking that growth as much as we possibly can. And we always have the GVA figures, which are relatively good. The BFI figures that came out this week are obviously a nine month year on year projection we're looking at that will probably improve at the as the course of Q4 runs along. But yes, it's about workforce.
It's about earnings, it's about skills. It's about the whole matrix that we look at as a government. And what we're trying to make sure is that the where the where the industry is weaker requiring support, we're able to provide that. And that's mainly around skills and. workforce .
It's about earnings, it's about skills. It's about the whole matrix that we look at as a government. And what we're trying to make sure is that the where the where the industry is weaker requiring support, we're able to provide that. And that's mainly around skills and. workforce .
11:31
11:31
11:31
11:32
11:32
11:32
11:32
11:33
11:33
11:33
11:33
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
Actually. improving on a sustained basis? Well, the BFI obviously produced the figures in terms of what the the trends look and what the what the trends are looking in terms of tracking that. I think the balance at the moment is about 85% investment of. 15% in terms of UK production. But, you know, the the important thing here is to see that the whole ecosystem comes together as one. And it's not necessarily mutually exclusive from one to the other. So if you look at Bridgerton as an example, which is something that I hope everyone's watched, a marvellous.
11:34
11:34
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
It obviously. financed from international finance, but actually the impact on the UK in terms of the. £275 million of GVA, the. 5000 businesses that have been supported. So I use that example because it's not a direct correlation between where the money is coming from and the impact it's having, both in the sector and the industry, and indeed on the ground in terms of where the money is being, is being spent. Our PSBs are hugely important in this, and that's why the BBC charter that we're currently concluding the white Paper for at the moment will be very clear in terms of where production spend goes, and it would be very clear in terms of making sure that.
ecosystem and the heart they play in that local ecosystem is a key part of it. And then we've got the. tax reliefs system and of course, independent production film tax credit is there. That's been introduced. It's been hugely successful. I don't know if it's supported or could have supported any of the projects you've been involved in in the past, and what impact and difference that would have made. So there's a whole host of supports in terms of relief through the Treasury. There's a whole host of supports through our SBS, but I think you're right in the framing of your question that we do have in terms of those international headwinds, in terms of that international competitiveness, in terms of the US tax credit system, the federal tax credit system that has been introduced or is in the process of being introduced, does give us a .
ecosystem and the heart they play in that local ecosystem is a key part of it. And then we've got the. tax reliefs system and of course, independent production film tax credit is there. That's been introduced. It's been hugely successful. I don't know if it's supported or could have supported any of the projects you've been involved in in the past, and what impact and difference that would have made. So there's a whole host of supports in terms of relief through the Treasury. There's a whole host of supports through our SBS, but I think you're right in the framing of your question that we do have in terms of those international headwinds, in terms of that international competitiveness, in terms of the US tax credit system, the federal tax credit system that has been introduced or is in the process of being introduced, does give us a .
11:37
11:37
11:38
Speaker 6
-
Speaker 6
Just if I can, I think it's worth pointing out that the. 2025 figures do show some growth. So appreciating it's from a kind of lower base than we might want. But the figures suggest that the domestic high end TV market was up 15% in 2025. And that does have some kind of really big kind of important productions. Looking at Wolf Hall, Mr. Bates versus the post office, Silent witness. So that is all still very much part of the .
11:38
Alison Hume
-
-
Alison Hume
Ecosystem that we're trying to encourage and some shoots of growth there. Thank you. Just coming back on that, if we're going to tell our own stories that are uniquely are unique to us in the UK, I mean, often they they're they're ones that cost half. 1 million to 1 million an hour. They don't get the tax breaks. But many voices in the sector think that a targeted enhancement of Avec to include productions with budgets of.
1 million to 3 million an hour would be a game changer.
1 million to 3 million an hour would be a game changer.
11:39
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
Why did you reject this recommendation? Well, it's a decision for the Treasury in terms of the reliefs that are put in place. But we supported the sector in terms of the evidence that they put forward. We continue to work with the sector in terms of honing that evidence and making sure that it's as strong as possible, and because we want productions to happen here. And when I speak to independent production companies in this in this area, they say that they take some of that a lower end, probably the wrong way to talk about it. But we talk about high end TV.
But the lower the lower cost television to other countries, because it's cheaper to do it there with their tax relief system. So we're very much aware of it. I suppose the really positive thing here is that if you look at the high end television tax credits and .
But the lower the lower cost television to other countries, because it's cheaper to do it there with their tax relief system. So we're very much aware of it. I suppose the really positive thing here is that if you look at the high end television tax credits and .
11:41
11:41
11:41
11:46
11:46
11:46
11:47
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Screen Growth package is providing resources to a number of productions that has been hugely successful and incredibly popular, and in fact, was a a recommendation of this committee to double the Global Screen Fund, which we've done from 7 million to 18 million. So a recommendation from this committee that was very much welcomed and acted upon. So it's not an either or on this basis. It's a whole matrix of different funding avenues. And really, in terms of the extension of the tax reliefs to the the lower cost television dramas in particular, that. 1 to £3 million is really a decision for Treasury .
11:48
11:49
11:49
11:49
11:49
11:50
11:50
11:50
11:50
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
If not generations. And because we have the talent here, because people want to make their productions here. So yes, we have to be very conscious that it doesn't crowd out. But if you look at some of the massive successes that we've had locally, I swear being a big success from last year. funded through. independent film, and obviously one that's won the two BAFTAs became an international success story. And those are the kinds of examples we give in terms of the success of the matrix, of all the different levels of both funding and support that's out there.
But but the inward investment is hugely supportive. I mean, I gave the example earlier, which was funded by inward investment, but it does do tell a UK story and tells a local story. And the money we've given to the strategic. authorities in this area. So there's a whole matrix of making sure that it's not crowding out, but.
But but the inward investment is hugely supportive. I mean, I gave the example earlier, which was funded by inward investment, but it does do tell a UK story and tells a local story. And the money we've given to the strategic. authorities in this area. So there's a whole matrix of making sure that it's not crowding out, but.
11:52
11:52
11:52
11:52
11:52
11:52
11:53
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Example that tells the story of British lives in the world that we currently experience. If you look at the other side of the telescope, there's also a great thirst. internationally for British stories and locally produced British stories, because the stories that we've always told and the quality in which we tell them, is very much an attractive proposition for international markets. So there is also the other side of the telescope in terms of our the. international .
11:54
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
Aspects of, of, of what we do well in this country. If I may, the other thing that I would say is the inward investment is not just about the content that is produced, but it's about the impact that they have on the broader screen economy in this country as well. So if you look at the investment that, you know, kind of 30 million investment that Netflix are putting in crew HQ in Leavesden because of the nature of the screen industry and those people and those skills move about different productions. So there is definitely a kind of an investment that comes .
11:55
Alison Hume
-
-
Alison Hume
In the UK industry, not just production by production. Yeah. The, the independent production companies that I talked to really are in the space of the 3 million an hour and under. And, you know, we have to be able to tell the stories in, in our authentic voices in landscapes, as I say, that we. recognise all we get the.
11:56
11:56
11:57
11:57
11:57
11:57
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Where our PSBs, but also mainly the BBC, fits into that ecology. So importantly, and they're providing obviously the platform for telling the stories, which is why we've committed as a government to make sure the BBC not only survives, but thrives because it's so important to that. And of course, it's paid for by the public. So it's also being paid for to tell their stories. So we need to encourage and make sure that it does more of that and make sure we're.
championing those, those key local stories that .
championing those, those key local stories that .
11:58
Caroline Dinenage
-
-
Caroline Dinenage
We have in this country, which are hugely important and greatly popular. But I'm hearing from you, Minister, if you don't mind me saying it was a little bit of sloppy shoulders here. You know, it's the BBC's issue to tell our national stories. These won £3 million tax credits. Well, that's an issue for the Treasury. No, this is an issue for you to advocate for with the Treasury. To what extent are you doing this? It's all very well you sitting here and telling us it's everyone else's problem. You're the culture. You're the creative industries minister. To what extent are you ensuring that you're securing those 1 to £3 million investments here in the .
11:59
11:59
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Go overseas, as we are seeing at the moment, increasingly? Yeah, absolutely. And I think the point I'm trying to make is it's a decision for Treasury, but we're being advocating, and as I said in my response, we are helping the industry to develop the best and strongest possible environment for them to put that .
11:59
12:00
12:00
12:00
12:00
Speaker 4
-
Speaker 4
Before this, before the summer, I think. Yeah, not good enough, Nigel. Thank you. Thank you chair. I'm going to come on to tax incentives in a moment. But just building on the discussion we just had and we heard earlier on today the vital role of the BBC plays in our creative industries, nurturing new talent and so on. But I just need to come back to the your answer to the chair's question about the BBC and the Trump.
12:01
12:01
Speaker 4
-
Speaker 4
Because I'm not happy with your response. And again, what we heard, oh, it's the BBC's responsibility. That's not good enough. We're going through a current live charter review where one of the. requirements is the BBC to be impartial. And I think no matter what you may think of Donald Trump, that video was doctored. The BBC did not follow its own guidelines. So my question very briefly here is, given the live charter review, how confident can we be that you will be requiring, as part of the charter review for the BBC to make sure that it's got processes, procedures and a culture .
12:02
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
To. ensure compliance with. impartiality in news and current affairs? Yes, I agree with that. And I think we do have to draw a distinction between the current court case and government commenting on a live court case and the charter renewal process. But if the green paper thread right through that was to make sure that the BBC has in its. operations and the way in which it's the way at which it's perceived by the public and the actualities by the public, that it has trust at its heart, that trust is underpinned by impartiality. These kinds of issues, whether it be around the, the, the Panorama programme or the cultural issues that were raised at the beginning, are all part of a degrading of that trust with the BBC.
And what we need to do in this charter renewal is to make sure they have the processes in place and to be able to get that trust back from the public and maintain it, because they should be the. bastions of true .
And what we need to do in this charter renewal is to make sure they have the processes in place and to be able to get that trust back from the public and maintain it, because they should be the. bastions of true .
12:04
12:04
12:04
12:04
12:04
12:05
12:05
Speaker 4
-
Speaker 4
Certainly strengthen it, because this is key to where we go in the future with the BBC. Thank you, Minister, where we've got more agreement, and I know we've had multiple conversations about this, about the minister's commitment to the creative industries and acknowledging and recognising it's not just nice, fluffy stuff. It's not just artsy stuff. It's vital to the UK economy. And that's why there's been cross-party agreement on the tax incentives. And I think the question is, have we got them right and is there flexibility? We heard from the panel earlier on in response to a question I asked that the tax incentives are absolutely pivotal to making sure we've got productions in the UK.
We've got all of these great other things. We've got amazing.
We've got all of these great other things. We've got amazing.
12:06
12:06
Speaker 4
-
Speaker 4
Incredible in front and behind the camera talent, great studio facilities and so on. But those tax incentives are pivotal. But are they working properly? And in particular, when it comes to the. audiovisual tax credits, are you confident that if there's evidence to suggest that some of those need change, in particular because of challenges in the visual effects area, particularly with the US and some of the changes they may be .
12:07
12:07
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Is there room for flexibility and would you champion flexibility? Yeah, 100% and we are championing flexibility because it's an ever changing environment. And in fact, I've just remembered what I was just about to say before the division bill went there for the for the two minute silence was that we are internationally. competitive on these issues, but we have to keep them under constant review because of the. We are so good at it, and the.
12:08
12:08
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Both from the Treasury's perspective, but also from the industry perspective, is that the proof of the pudding is in the eating here. They've been hugely successful for the industry. They've probably, in terms of Treasury take taken in more resources because of the the impact it's had in terms of. productions and. But we have to keep these under review all the time because there are the US tax credit relief system that would be stackable from the federal level will be a big challenge for us. So so the answer to your question is yes, but we do have a it's not just about the overall level.
It's also about the fact that they're uncapped. They're above the line and they're easy to administer, which is three other big aspects to this, which makes it. attractive alongside .
It's also about the fact that they're uncapped. They're above the line and they're easy to administer, which is three other big aspects to this, which makes it. attractive alongside .
12:10
12:10
12:11
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Exhibition sides of the of the industry? And and are you having conversations about that? Yes. I chaired a roundtable with the industry and distribution and marketing just last month to run through the real difficulties and risks profiles of bringing those. productions to audiences. And it's quite clear that that's a very high risk, high risk, high reward. But also there are things that do fall away. And it goes back to Allison's question, actually, that if we don't get this right, you end up not being able to tell the stories that you want to tell. The example they used that I've already used in the committee is, I swear, which in all in normal circumstances would probably not have been made, but they took a huge risk on making it.
I think it was a Canal plus production or. distribution film, and they took a huge risk in making it. They put a lot of money, more money than they would probably have. Their accountants would have let them to do the distribution and the marketing of it, and therefore it was a success. But that is one example of many that fall away. Many stories that we don't know about haven't been told. So, so absolutely.
And the discussion around that round table was what best can government do to support .
I think it was a Canal plus production or. distribution film, and they took a huge risk in making it. They put a lot of money, more money than they would probably have. Their accountants would have let them to do the distribution and the marketing of it, and therefore it was a success. But that is one example of many that fall away. Many stories that we don't know about haven't been told. So, so absolutely.
And the discussion around that round table was what best can government do to support .
12:13
Speaker 4
-
Speaker 4
That, that part of it, the outlet part of it that gets these films to audiences. Because I think during the pandemic, we saw, and I think the I think the chair was actually the minister in charge during the pandemic of helping support some of the creative industries and the Culture Recovery Fund in order to support, in particular, theatrical distribution, all those theatres that were empty for months after months, after months. So a huge amount of public money has gone into supporting exhibition. It would be a real shame if we lose some of those fantastic. theatres across the.
12:14
12:14
12:14
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
And I know that's something that the independent films in particular would really appreciate. Yes. And the cinema side of that is really important because that's where the audiences are digesting this, and we're putting a lot of thought into how we can now support them, because we've put. £1.5 billion of us through Arts Council England, which didn't include, well, it does include some cinemas if they're in other arts organisations, but it doesn't include the cinema sector. As such, we're putting some thought into what we might need to .
12:14
12:14
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
Complementing the chair's always a very good way of getting your questions in first. Excellent. Thank you. Just if I may, just one of the things that we are doing as well is working very closely alongside industry. So I was at a round table just last month where we were talking about the potential impact of a proposed US.
12:15
12:15
12:15
12:16
12:16
12:16
12:16
12:16
12:16
12:16
12:16
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
The freelance champions and how quickly. Well, the freelance champions are great. I mean Lizzie and Layla, the two names that are now becoming synonymous with freelancing in this sector. They should have maybe their own daytime TV show, but they're doing a lot of work of scoping out at the moment what their work plan should look like. I think part of the biggest challenge here is, is finding the data because this.
12:17
12:17
12:17
12:17
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
The most insecure work, fewer. employees of which fluctuates. And of course, it's really important to have that pipeline of of work to be able to sustain the. freelance ecosystem. Otherwise it falls away and it's very difficult to get back. So the skills issues are all part of that. So we're looking forward to them coming forward with what needs to look at in terms of the life of a.
12:18
12:18
12:18
12:18
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
What it means for for workforce planning skills, careers development. pensions and pay. And we look forward to them coming forward with that as quickly as possible. They've they've finalising their work plan now, and we're working very closely on supporting them on that. They are championing freelancers to government, of course, but they're also championing what freelancers can do into the industry and being very much welcomed by industry. So I don't know if the committee have met them yet, but it would be very much.
I'm sure they very much welcome .
I'm sure they very much welcome .
12:19
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
Presenting to committee in terms of what their work for the work plan looks like and what they're looking to achieve. Yeah, I've met Lizzie in the all party group, but I'm not sure the committee have met the champions yet, have they? Chair now. So I also wanted to ask about progress on making. apprenticeships and the growth and skills levy work for a freelance heavy industry. You know, it's project based, as we've heard, freelancers. essentially vast majority of the people involved.
12:20
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
So can you tell us what progress has been made? Yeah, this has been a big challenge, of course. because of the way in which the sector is set up. That's why we have the freelance champions, of course, is because it is a very much unique sector. So one size hasn't been fitting all in this particular purpose. There's an awful lot of small businesses, so we need shorter training, better funding of that.
12:21
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
And because of the way in which productions work, they're in and out, they don't have that. longevity that maybe some other more. traditional sectors would have. So working very hard to make sure how we can make that sort of really complicated network of skills and support work for the creative industries, and particularly the film and TV industry. It's not an easy task. The sector have come forward to say what they need.
The Creative Industries Council have done a skills audit in terms of what skills need .
The Creative Industries Council have done a skills audit in terms of what skills need .
12:22
12:22
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Trying to match that up. We have a jobs plan which will be launched shortly. Yes, shortly. I don't know what shortly means in terms of government, but it is genuinely shortly and that should all try and marry up to see where are the gaps, what do we need and then what does the system need to look like to fill those gaps? But I think the biggest challenge here is the data. We just don't really have the quality of data that you would have in other sectors.
In terms of that skills profile, the workforce.
In terms of that skills profile, the workforce.
12:23
12:23
12:23
12:25
12:25
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
With DCMs and with other government departments on what does that look like if you overlay it to the creative industry? So the creative industries are very much a unique beast when you look at the entirety of the economy, and it's very easy to talk about. manufacturing or, or energy because it's a very easy to see, whereas the creative industries are much more homogeneous group. So it's the understanding certainly much, much better. Layla and Lizzie will help us to push that forward. The sector is working very closely on that, and the jobs plan should hopefully put rocket boosters around what needs to be done.
The skills audit was pretty clear about what needs to be done. So the relationship with other government departments is .
The skills audit was pretty clear about what needs to be done. So the relationship with other government departments is .
12:25
12:25
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
Whose job is it to collect the data? Well, on that one. So. So one of the things that we are going to be doing is looking at where we do have data points across government, whether it's in the tax system, pension system, etc., that we know what we've got, that we can bring that together and understand what that means for freelancers as a whole, because kind of pockets in different government departments tells us things. But you know, to the point about the pandemic, it's bringing that together. And what does that tell us as a whole and some of that, what the work will show us is that there are gaps.
We will there will inevitably gaps, but it's just working out. How do we get the best understanding that we have got, and then how can we then fill in where we know we've got gaps in our.
We will there will inevitably gaps, but it's just working out. How do we get the best understanding that we have got, and then how can we then fill in where we know we've got gaps in our.
12:25
12:25
12:25
12:25
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
They've actually asked us, you know, not to tell them not to do, but to allow them some time to come back to us with a plan of work. So we will have that over the coming months. And we're kind of investing quite you know, my budget is being used to help invest in research for them that they think is needed for the sector as well. And we're putting some academic support behind .
12:25
12:25
12:25
12:25
12:25
Caroline Dinenage
-
-
Caroline Dinenage
Bring it together in his in his kind of coherent way, as we can when it comes to skills. Levy, for example, are you communicating with Screenskills BFI? You know, whose job is it? Whose job is it to collect the data on? The minister said that the growth and skills levy work is complicated. It's a really, really difficult sector and and there's a parlous lack of data.
12:25
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Well, whose job is it to collect them? It's quite a simple question. Whose job is it to collect the data? I think actually that's part of the problem because obviously it sits with DfE, it sits with Treasury, it sits with DWP. If you're looking at the sort of pension side of this, I know the freelance champions is on the side, are looking very much at the pension side of it. It sits with with the industry itself, including the sector bodies. So it's pulling that together and I think the the data gaps and the lack of data and the complicated nature of trying to collect that data has been part of the problem here, which is why .
12:25
12:25
12:25
Rupa Huq
-
-
Rupa Huq
Okay. Good. Excellent. All right. Good. Thank you. Let's move on to Rupa, please. Yeah. I liked your description of the sector as healthy but fragile. Kind of one of the things that illustrates that best is that screen skills report of this year says. 80% of roles in the sector are at risk from AI. And yet.
70% of the workforce have had zero training in it. I wondered, would you meet with the broadcasting, entertainment and Arts. Unions Appg, which I am a member of? I can declare it includes back to Writers Guild, the .
70% of the workforce have had zero training in it. I wondered, would you meet with the broadcasting, entertainment and Arts. Unions Appg, which I am a member of? I can declare it includes back to Writers Guild, the .
12:25
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Musicians Union, because they're very worried about all this. I mean, the simple answer to that question is yes. If you're asking for a meeting to meet with those particular bodies who we engage with all the time. But I think in general terms, this is a big challenge for the sector because there is no doubt that the creative industries are one of the deepest and largest adopter of AI in their processes , and have been for some time, but also it has the biggest threats in terms of the impact of AI, particularly on jobs. So what we need to try and do is make sure we have a an AI system that allows us to support the jobs, but also to provide guidance to the industry and what they're doing.
And some of the some of the really innovative things that we've heard in terms of AI have really supported the. industry in terms of them reducing their costs, reducing their ability to get stuff produced. And we have Sally, who's the chief executive of the Abbey Road Studios, who's our AI creative industries champion, who's produced a report in terms of where AI sits in the sector and what should be done to try and both adopt, help adopt, but also help adopt safely. That protects the jobs and the industry in itself. So it's obviously a massively active part, but I'm very happy to meet with the .
And some of the some of the really innovative things that we've heard in terms of AI have really supported the. industry in terms of them reducing their costs, reducing their ability to get stuff produced. And we have Sally, who's the chief executive of the Abbey Road Studios, who's our AI creative industries champion, who's produced a report in terms of where AI sits in the sector and what should be done to try and both adopt, help adopt, but also help adopt safely. That protects the jobs and the industry in itself. So it's obviously a massively active part, but I'm very happy to meet with the .
12:25
12:25
12:25
Rupa Huq
-
-
Rupa Huq
For animation. But you know, it could also be a deluge of slop. You've stressed that. creative industries are within the industrial strategy. Do you think they've got enough prominence in there? I mean, it feels not quite on the same level as, say, steel or automotive. And we heard in the last panel that actually the British business Bank funds, there's no automatic right for any of those to go to creative industries.
12:25
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Should we not have them a bit more prominent in there? Well, I mean, the industrial strategy has the eight sectors that are priority sectors. The creative industries are one. It's one of the largest actually in terms of the GVA contribution to the country and in terms of the number of jobs that are employed in the industry. So it's a massive part of it. It's our job at DCMs to be able to promote the the plan and try and achieve some of the recommendations in the plan and push that forward. So that's why we're we're putting in place the kind of support, financial support as well that sits alongside the plan.
So the British Business Bank, I think they would say those two have had a difficulty in terms of being able to fund the creative industries. It says very clearly in the creative industries sector plan that the British Business Bank should look at new, innovative ways of funding, including using IP as a capital backup for for funding. There's half £1 billion into UK createch that we announced in Liverpool at the tail end of last year, so there's a significant amount of money going into the industry to modernise to to look at supporting creative and to support the creative industries as part of that process.
But it's these financial instruments have are easier to apply to more traditional. manufacturing and more traditional industries. But that's why the sector plan says very clearly that the British business Bank should invent and come up with new systems and use IP to back that up. And .
So the British Business Bank, I think they would say those two have had a difficulty in terms of being able to fund the creative industries. It says very clearly in the creative industries sector plan that the British Business Bank should look at new, innovative ways of funding, including using IP as a capital backup for for funding. There's half £1 billion into UK createch that we announced in Liverpool at the tail end of last year, so there's a significant amount of money going into the industry to modernise to to look at supporting creative and to support the creative industries as part of that process.
But it's these financial instruments have are easier to apply to more traditional. manufacturing and more traditional industries. But that's why the sector plan says very clearly that the British business Bank should invent and come up with new systems and use IP to back that up. And .
12:25
12:25
Rupa Huq
-
-
Rupa Huq
You want to use IP to back up finance, it has to have a value. Okay. And just sorry, I know from my old job in the university sector, it feels like arts courses, creative industry, things are being slashed in universities. So that's kind of a worry. They're not even eligible for the new grants that are coming out. But I mean, that's maybe an education thing, not yours. Last one from me really, because we're on a timer today in recent sorry of the upcoming cinema releases, you can see a Val Kilmer film, although he's dead, that is entirely created with AI.
I mean, there is a worry that in your government. policy you've not done anything much to copyright law. There is no exemption. There's no sort of. protection for unauthorized digital.
I mean, there is a worry that in your government. policy you've not done anything much to copyright law. There is no exemption. There's no sort of. protection for unauthorized digital.
12:25
12:25
12:25
12:25
12:25
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Has been produced with consent. Yeah. I mean, you can see it could be a slippery slope. Yeah. But it is a slippery slope. But the government have now we've now put in place the four work streams that we've been that we announced back in March for AI copyright. That is looking at, of course, input transparency. It's looking at labelling, it's looking at creative control , and it's looking at digital replicas. So all of that stuff's coming into those work streams. It will be particularly prevalent for the creative industries and for the high end TV and film in this particular case, because the.
audience needs to know what they're watching. And if you think about film and TV, you talked about animation. Nobody would ever think that animation wasn't was not real, you know, or was real in that sense. So we've got to try and find a way of making sure that the audiences know what's real and what's not real, what's AI generated, what's not, what's labeled properly. And of course, the transparency of all that off that then allows you to look at the monetization of it. So the Val Kilmer one is a little bit of an example of how the technology is moving so quickly, but this is about non-consensual, about deepfakes, about unauthorized replicas, and those .
audience needs to know what they're watching. And if you think about film and TV, you talked about animation. Nobody would ever think that animation wasn't was not real, you know, or was real in that sense. So we've got to try and find a way of making sure that the audiences know what's real and what's not real, what's AI generated, what's not, what's labeled properly. And of course, the transparency of all that off that then allows you to look at the monetization of it. So the Val Kilmer one is a little bit of an example of how the technology is moving so quickly, but this is about non-consensual, about deepfakes, about unauthorized replicas, and those .
12:25
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
Kinds of issues which these work streams are working through at pace as we speak. And the consultation will definitely acknowledge the kind of huge difference between something like Val Kilmer example and extras and, you know, kind of, you know, actors starting out in their career, turning up on set and having a very different experience to, to the kind of consent and licensing that happens at the different end of the market.
12:25
12:25
Alison Hume
-
-
Alison Hume
Definitely look at views in all of that. Thank you very much, Allison. Thank you, chair. And I'd just like to refer to my career as a screenwriter and producer. I also owned an independent production company. making children's drama for Cbbc. That's no longer trading. So I know that. streamer Cost Plus deals can give producers more payments, but I also know that they can put independent production. companies in handcuffs, really, and limit the the way that producers can. monetize programs and build catalogues and reinvest, of course, in future development. So my question is really how how, Minister, how does the government intend to help Indies retain and exploit UK.
originated IP in a market where streamer deals .
originated IP in a market where streamer deals .
12:25
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Can. involve broad rights buyouts? Yeah, I mean, I suppose I suppose that's the exam question isn't it, in terms of how do we. incentivize both the creation and the. retention of IP to give that long term financial stability? And the British business Bank, of course, are looking at how they can expand access to private finance, which gives independent production. companies a bit more leverage in the negotiations. But I suppose it comes back to the original points about the investment profile and. Where the streamers sit in that ecology of, of, of what they're trying to achieve because they obviously want to hold the IP, because it gives them the worldwide rights to be able to put them onto their platforms so their platforms are worldwide, whereas some of the other IP retention would be at a local level.
So we want to try and make sure we're doing that. Regions using their share of the Creative Places Growth Fund to set up production funds to help. We've seen that already in the West Midlands and in Yorkshire. So it's about trying to find a platform where the access to finance for creating that local IP is retained. And so it's not just having to have the only option of reaching for the funding that's coming from the streamers in terms of those contracts that you talk about. And it's not an easy thing to resolve, of course, particularly in an environment where the sector is fragile.
But it's .
So we want to try and make sure we're doing that. Regions using their share of the Creative Places Growth Fund to set up production funds to help. We've seen that already in the West Midlands and in Yorkshire. So it's about trying to find a platform where the access to finance for creating that local IP is retained. And so it's not just having to have the only option of reaching for the funding that's coming from the streamers in terms of those contracts that you talk about. And it's not an easy thing to resolve, of course, particularly in an environment where the sector is fragile.
But it's .
12:25
Alison Hume
-
-
Alison Hume
Important that we try and put in place as a government as much support as we possibly can. Yes. Thank you, Minister, but the the. streamers really do hold the whip hand and the dynamic isn't fair. I recently visited Denmark, where they have a levy, a streamer levy, and that that's protected their home grown content, which we were talking about early Denmark, where they have a levy, a stream levy, and that that's protected their home grown content, which we were talking about early, earlier is. 24% of their content is homegrown, which is amazing. So we know that the government didn't support a streamer levy.
But but what other. mechanisms could you use to ensure that major platforms. contribute to the kind of.
But but what other. mechanisms could you use to ensure that major platforms. contribute to the kind of.
12:25
12:25
12:25
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
That we really must invest in? It's an incredibly important question. And I think if you look at some of the big. successes that the streamers have of, of had in this area, like. adolescence being one of them, it's not all one sided in terms of that kind of local storytelling, if you like. So we did really a streamers levy. There's a whole matrix, of course, that we've talked about in the committee already of funding streams support the tax relief.
12:25
12:25
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
The attractive nature of doing productions in the UK, the stories that we tell being very popular across the across their markets as well. So we don't believe that at this stage that mechanism is needed in terms of streamers. Levy, because you can see that significant investment coming into the country with all of that matrix of funding. So it's been ruled out at this stage. But given the way in which the market is going, given that fragility, then, you know, we're always looking at whether or not the tax relief system and the .
12:25
12:25
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Productions like children's television and regional production? We do to a certain extent in that sense, because we do encourage. particularly our SBS, the BBC and S4c's in the Children's Channel five as well, the children's part of it, and the regional growth funds that have that are sitting at the Msa's are very much about building those regional hubs. So it is it is complicated, but but absolutely what we're trying to do is to make sure that we have a very much a. thriving regional, national and local. ecosystem built from the grassroots up. And that's what the, what we're trying to achieve in terms of the .
12:25
Caroline Dinenage
-
-
Caroline Dinenage
The public funding that's going into these areas. I mean, I mentioned this in the previous panel, but one of our one of our witnesses in our work on BBC Charter Review said that the BBC was like a university of skills for which the whole film TV sector across the UK, and particularly those inward investors, benefit from the streamers benefit from the incredible skills that are developed on BBC programming. And to what extent do you think that that might be addressed?
12:25
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
When the White Paper on BBC Charter Review comes out? Be fundamental, actually, because I often use the phrase that when you look at the sector, everyone's either had a BBC lanyard or wants one, and that just shows you because everyone's had some kind of association with the BBC and where they've. produced local hubs, whether it be in Birmingham or Manchester, Glasgow, Bristol, London, you see in Cardiff as well, you see that sort of real growth of the ecosystem, because the BBC is the linchpin of not just investment and production, but also that skills base. And without having that talent.
12:25
12:25
12:25
12:25
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
See the streamer levy repackaged as a way of supporting the BBC and the White Paper? It's not. It's not on the table at the moment, as we've laid out, but in terms of our streamers, Levy. But, you know, everything is always kept under constant review because of the way in which the fragility of the sector is at the moment, and the international competition. That's quite clear from the US and other countries in terms of their .
12:25
Gill German
-
-
Gill German
Home grown industries. Okay. Thank you. And Jill, thank you, chair. We've heard this morning really quite strongly, actually, about the importance of regional commissioning to make sure that there's a richness of storytelling that comes from across the UK. And indeed, we've just touched on the role that the BBC plays in that and other public service broadcasters like channel four. And so that shared economic. success is something really important, I think, and to make sure that those. ecosystems exist in a sustainable way. So there aren't productions made and then they move on. And my question is about cuts to those public service.
broadcasters that provide that regional.
broadcasters that provide that regional.
12:25
12:25
12:25
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Productions and jobs and skilled workers, what action the government would take on that? Yeah, a really important question, and actually one that we've been making sure is asked quite clearly through the BBC charter renewal process, because the Secretary of State and I have very much an ambition for the BBC to do more regionally and locally. They obviously have the hubs across the the country that have been real catalysts for growing those ecosystems locally and what it's what it's done for the ecosystem in Wales and Cardiff has been is there for everyone to see. It's growing its base, of course, in Digbeth, in Birmingham.
It's always had a very strong base in Glasgow. So what we need to make sure is the the. PSBs are catalysing these local regional hubs and those local regional. ecosystems and and the charter renewal process gives us a real opportunity to put rocket boosters under that. Again, the BBC have done a lot. And arguably, have they done enough? Channel four, of course do a lot as well. Arguably.
Have they done enough? But we want to make sure that as much production as possible is pushed locally, because that's where you have the local commissioning that tells the local stories, that promotes those local productions that are vital to not just the fabric of our culture and the country,
It's always had a very strong base in Glasgow. So what we need to make sure is the the. PSBs are catalysing these local regional hubs and those local regional. ecosystems and and the charter renewal process gives us a real opportunity to put rocket boosters under that. Again, the BBC have done a lot. And arguably, have they done enough? Channel four, of course do a lot as well. Arguably.
Have they done enough? But we want to make sure that as much production as possible is pushed locally, because that's where you have the local commissioning that tells the local stories, that promotes those local productions that are vital to not just the fabric of our culture and the country,
12:25
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
But also to the the health of our ecosystems in terms of production. Can I also just add quickly? So it's also important to look at what we're doing around that as well. So I was really struck when I was in Birmingham recently in looking at what the mayoral authority there is doing with some of the creative places, Growth Fund money, and actually using that to kind of to build connections between different bits of the industry. So one of the examples that I was really struck by is there's an animation studio who's now doing VFX and special effects, sorry for Silent Witness.
And so just kind of using the kind of the commissioning that's happening, but also how do they take that and then build out the industry in that place as well is .
And so just kind of using the kind of the commissioning that's happening, but also how do they take that and then build out the industry in that place as well is .
12:25
12:25
12:25
12:25
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Cuts manifest themselves in that way? Well, I mean, if if it's on the basis that essentially cuts are being disproportionately impacted in those regional areas, it would be very much be against the spirit and also the letter of the current charter, let alone what we're trying to do with the new BBC charter, because we're trying very hard to make sure that most productions are happening outwith London and the South East. And that's not to deprive London, the south east of the great ecosystem that they currently have. And the proof of the pudding is in what's actually happened already.
Because if you look at where they have catalysed that kind of investment in Birmingham is a really good example. The BBC have gone in there, we've had Peaky Blinders, we've had I think MasterChef is now in there. So they're building a big ecosystem and that allows other companies that are sitting outside those PSBs to be able to develop their own companies, but also develop new avenues of of production. So we would very much have to make sure that the quotas are strong, but also saying that the where the BBC in particular have set up regional hubs, they've been hugely successful.
And we have to make sure that that ecosystem continues to thrive. Salford is a very good example in Manchester of where that ecosystem has grown. Salford is. I'll go back to the same word, fragile as well in terms of its position in the ecosystem. So we have to make sure that the the catalysts that are coming from our PSBs, which are publicly funded, is making sure .
Because if you look at where they have catalysed that kind of investment in Birmingham is a really good example. The BBC have gone in there, we've had Peaky Blinders, we've had I think MasterChef is now in there. So they're building a big ecosystem and that allows other companies that are sitting outside those PSBs to be able to develop their own companies, but also develop new avenues of of production. So we would very much have to make sure that the quotas are strong, but also saying that the where the BBC in particular have set up regional hubs, they've been hugely successful.
And we have to make sure that that ecosystem continues to thrive. Salford is a very good example in Manchester of where that ecosystem has grown. Salford is. I'll go back to the same word, fragile as well in terms of its position in the ecosystem. So we have to make sure that the the catalysts that are coming from our PSBs, which are publicly funded, is making sure .
12:25
Gill German
-
-
Gill German
12:25
12:25
12:25
12:25
12:25
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
UK offer is supported in the strongest way? It's a very good question. And actually the strategic authorities in themselves have been really good. catalysts for bringing all of that infrastructure that's locally together. There's some brilliant examples of best practice across the country in terms of that happening. If you look at the West Midlands in particular, we've talked about Birmingham already. If you look about Yorkshire, where Tracy Brabin has been putting a lot of effort into bringing that whole ecosystem together and then making sure that it's much larger than the sum of its parts. So that's what this funding is about.
It's not to compete, it's to complement and to catalyse. And very much the mayors in those strategic authorities have been catalyzing it. And look, there is there's always an argument about whether or not. particularly in places where they don't have the strategic authorities of should the BBC do more? There is always a balance about whether or not they should be solidifying the positions that they're already in, in terms of the hubs they have around the country, but making sure that those hubs become a central hub that then spreads out. So Bristol, for example, I would assume would be a very close catalyst for North Wales in terms of the ecosystem.
But so there is an argument about whether they should do more and do more hubs, or whether or not that would just dilute the whole system. So there is a balance there to be struck. But the key thing for us is to make sure that the maximum amount of public money and strategic visions going into pooling all of this together, rather than it being in a competing factors. And I think the mayors have already shown .
It's not to compete, it's to complement and to catalyse. And very much the mayors in those strategic authorities have been catalyzing it. And look, there is there's always an argument about whether or not. particularly in places where they don't have the strategic authorities of should the BBC do more? There is always a balance about whether or not they should be solidifying the positions that they're already in, in terms of the hubs they have around the country, but making sure that those hubs become a central hub that then spreads out. So Bristol, for example, I would assume would be a very close catalyst for North Wales in terms of the ecosystem.
But so there is an argument about whether they should do more and do more hubs, or whether or not that would just dilute the whole system. So there is a balance there to be struck. But the key thing for us is to make sure that the maximum amount of public money and strategic visions going into pooling all of this together, rather than it being in a competing factors. And I think the mayors have already shown .
12:25
Gill German
-
-
Gill German
That they can be really there's really good bits of best practice out there of how it can work. Yeah. Ensuring those voices are heard from every part. We mentioned filmmaking in Cornwall this morning that, you know, we could well, we could well lose those stories unless we've really got a keen eye .
12:25
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
On, on what all our nations and regions have to offer. That's why regional commissioning is really important. It shouldn't just be about quotas. It should be actually commissioners being in the places of which they're commissioning from, having that understanding of what's happening locally, hearing those local stories and being part of those local stories. Otherwise commissioning becomes very much .
12:25
12:25
12:25
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Much for your time today. Did you have any parting messages that you wanted to leave us with? Just to thank you for the report, and the recommendations in the report are obviously still live, and we're working through a whole host of those competing issues that are that shows the industry is fragile but great, and .
12:25
12:25
12:25