Modern Slavery Act 2015

Baroness Afshar Excerpts

Monday 26th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

When we had the debate on the regulations, the noble Lord, Lord Alton, raised this issue. I am confident that we will have an online repository in place. I totally agree with the noble Baroness that it is very important. Following the consultation, one of the consequences of setting the threshold at the lower end of the spectrum—at £36 million turnover—was to capture more companies in that. Therefore, it is a bit more of a challenge. However, we are considering a number of proposals that have been brought forward. I very much believe that, by the time this comes into force, we will have such a repository.

[Baroness Afshar (CB)]

My Lords, are the Government aware that the majority of those who are working under slave conditions are working for private, family companies? It is essential that there is a way of finding out how young women in particular are driven into slavery without any human rights being respected.

[Lord Bates]

I think that is right. There are two measures involved here. First, the new Immigration Bill will have a big focus on labour market enforcement, which will help in that regard. Also, if a private, family business has a turnover above £36 million, they will have to produce a statement saying what steps they are taking to eradicate modern-day slavery from their supply chain. These are all steps down the line. However, essentially, we need to also encourage more people who are victims to come forward and identify those employers so that they can be prosecuted.

Police: Funding Formula

Baroness Afshar Excerpts

Tuesday 20th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

I do not accept the premise which the noble Baroness puts forward. In the counterterrorism legislation that will be brought forward and in the Prevent strategy that we outlined, we very clearly articulate that, as a society, we cannot simply just parcel this off to one element of society to tackle; this needs to be the responsibility of all communities, and particularly public authorities, which must play a role in identifying and challenging those extremist views wherever they appear.

[Baroness Afshar (CB)]

My Lords, is it not a major concern that, for all security forces, extremism and terrorism are understood in terms of Islam, and that it is the Muslim community that is targeted? Is there any way of changing this attitude to a community that has served this country well for a very long time?

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, I commend to the noble Baroness the strategy that was published yesterday, which I think takes a very balanced approach on these things—being quite honest and straightforward about the problems that are faced, but recognising that this is a problem that stretches well beyond the boundaries of one particular community. It is something that we face in all communities, and it needs to be challenged.

Asylum

Baroness Afshar Excerpts

Wednesday 16th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Afshar (CB)]

My Lords—

[Lord Higgins (Con)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, we have time. I suggest that we go first to the Cross Benches, if we go round in order, and then to my noble friend Lord Higgins.

[Baroness Afshar]

My Lords, is there any awareness of cause and effect in this process as to why all these people are coming out? Which countries have contributed to this problem? Is there a moral duty to think about what has caused this process? The people who come are the best, and they serve the countries to which they go to the best of their ability. I have done so and I am sure that many others might do so also.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I recognise the point that the noble Baroness makes, and that is why we have heard both the Prime Minister and President Obama say only yesterday that we must deal with the cause of the issue. However, in terms of moral duty and obligations, Britain has shown that it has a comprehensive view of dealing with this issue, not least by the £1 billion it has thus far given for assistance to those refugees in most desperate need around the Syrian borders.

Women: Dishonour-based Violence

Baroness Afshar Excerpts

Wednesday 15th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

We have worked on a cross-party basis; the Serious Crime Act introduced new measures on female genital mutilation and the anti-social behaviour and crime Act introduced measures on forced marriage. We have now produced various statutory guidance, which is now available and being promoted to police forces. Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary is going to undertake a review this summer into so-called honour-based crimes to see what more can be done in police forces across the country. A great deal is being done, but we are not complacent—more needs to be done.

[Baroness Afshar (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as the president of the Muslim Women’s Network UK. This group has been active in working within the community and with Muslim women, men and their families, but unfortunately it is starved of funds. As the Minister is very kindly offering some funds, please may I ask for some for us?

[Lord Bates]

I recognise that a great deal of work is going on. I hope that I have demonstrated that the Government are taking this very seriously. If there are particular organisations about whose work Members of your Lordships’ House wish to make representations, then of course I am always available on this very important issue.

Population: International Migration

Baroness Afshar Excerpts

Monday 16th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

That is true, but that sensible and rational view was drowned out when the lid was taken off immigration and the controls taken away so that under the previous Government we had net migration of 2.5 million. That fed into a change in the narrative away from the fact that most people who come to this country make an absolutely outstanding contribution to it and we are blessed to have them.

[Baroness Afshar (CB)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that, if we did not have immigrants or the children of immigrants, we would not have buildings, schools, a vibrant food industry or vibrant markets? They contribute and their contribution creates a multiplier effect, which means that they create money that goes around. They should not be underestimated.

[Lord Bates]

I certainly assure the noble Baroness that that contribution is not underestimated and that it is not going to stop. We want people who want to come here to study, to work, to invest and to visit. We want all those people to come. What we are doing is drawing a line to say that we must get much tougher with those who want to come here and abuse our openness.

Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill

Baroness Afshar Excerpts

Wednesday 4th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sharp of Guildford (LD)]

We had a considerable debate in Committee on these issues. I shall speak to Amendment 13B and about the danger of making the Prevent strategy statutory rather than voluntary and the fear that it might prove to be counterproductive. It is clear, however, that the Government feel strongly that these powers need to be statutory to ensure that those authorities which to date have lagged behind in their observance of the Prevent strategy recognise their obligations.

Amendment 13B, therefore, takes a somewhat different tack, as my noble friend mentioned. We had some discussion also about the importance of community involvement and working with the grain of community culture and the mores in different areas. In other words, it is vital that the implementation of the Prevent strategy should be flexible in approach and take into account the sensibilities of different communities.

These points were stressed, in particular, by the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, and my noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece—neither of whom is in the Chamber today—in relation to Muslim communities. Again, this point was raised in the example quoted by my noble friend Lady Hamwee of the advice given by Sutton. However, it applies just as much to other communities, where institutions and customs will vary from one to another. In some, the civic organisations—the mayor’s office and the agencies run from that office—may be the dominant players; in others, organisations such as the YMCA, third sector youth groups or faith groups may be most influential. It is a matter of recognising that one size does not fit all. Those behind the Prevent strategy must work with the grain of each community rather than trying to impose a standardised agenda on all.

[Baroness Afshar (CB)]

My Lords, I should like to speak in defence of the amendment, because, more and more, parliamentary legislation is identifying Muslims as “the others”, or the enemy within. The “otherisation” of an entire community through insensitive approaches which do not give them the leeway to fit in is the surest way of driving them away and towards actions that are undesirable on all sides, and which their religion forbids.

If people are defined by their religion, and if the strategy is such that they cannot find a person to whom they can comment or a position to which they can adhere, then, given the difficulty of the alienation created by these labels, I fear that violence will become an alternative. I hope that the House will take heed and offer a far more inclusive approach rather than one which is intent on labelling certain groups and faith groups as “others”.

[Baroness Buscombe (Con)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend the Minister as I suspect—I do not know—that he will not agree to the amendment.

First, I say to the noble Baroness who has just spoken that there is no mention of a particular community in the legislation. It is because, as we all know, it is predominantly people from the Muslim community who have been carrying out these appalling atrocities that those labels are being banded about. The Muslim community has to accept and understand why that is.

Furthermore, the other day I heard about something which I think amplifies why what the Government are seeking to achieve is incredibly difficult. I understand why they want to put this duty on a statutory basis. What I am going to say is almost more shocking to me than what happened in Paris. Somebody I know quite well was telling me the other day that his wife was shopping in a supermarket about three weeks ago in Manchester. She was scouring the shelves, as we do, when she stopped because she could not help overhearing a group of young British Asian Muslim girls talking about going to Syria.

This makes my heart jump when I talk about it and when I think about it. What does that say? It says that there are young people out there of different ages, and probably from different financial backgrounds, who have varying exposure to other faiths and so on and who, we are now hearing, find the idea of going to Syria quite cool. In other words, the importance of Prevent and of the need to try to deter these young people from thinking that somehow it is the right thing is absolutely paramount now. Therefore, we have to find every which way to send out a message, even though it may seem rather severe because it is on the face of the Bill. The threat that we face is severe.

Some of the people coming back from Syria now have carried out the most appalling atrocities. We do not want them talking to these girls, whether it is in supermarkets, in schools or in clubs—wherever it is—and encouraging them to think that it is cool. There has to be another point of view. There has to be a way that we encourage—we urge—all public authorities to do what they can to help these girls and many others like them who may be taken down the wrong path. I understand where my noble friend is coming from and the spirit of these amendments, but I do not think that we should shy away from sending a powerful message through this legislation that we have to do everything to support young people in preventing harm.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Afshar]

My Lords, I speak as a teacher of courses on Islam and the Middle East, in both the UK and Strasbourg. I support the statement of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, as I am beginning to feel that it will be impossible to teach a course that explains what Muslims think, what their ideas are or the way they think without at one point or another being accused of promoting terrorism. My courses are controversial. Particularly, Muslims object to what I say. Parents of Muslim women object to what I say, as do many British people. I would like to feel that universities remain places where people such as myself can teach courses that are controversial but can be enlightening and prevent future terrorists from finding that they have no refuge anywhere.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Bates has done an amazing job in inching this legislation slowly towards becoming a bearable and acceptable piece of law. However, we are not there yet. I put on record my thanks for my noble friend’s two amendments. One of them still awaits greater clarification. I am still not clear what the hierarchy is of, in particular, “due” and other kinds of regard. It is important that that is made clear. In doing so, I hope that my noble friend will recognise—as I am sure he will—that the heart of university education lies in academic freedom. Therefore, it is not one of a number of considerations but at the very centre of what it is to have a free system of tertiary education. My noble friend can get there but we need another little heave before he does.

The second thing I thank my noble friend for is the movement towards making sure that the so-called guidance is subjected to parliamentary consideration. We all appreciate that very much, not just because it helps to make the guidance itself clearer and reflect the experience of Parliament but because it is essential in dealing with terrorism that we bring into the pattern the greatest possible commitment by Parliament and all parts of university, not least including students. I will talk a little further about that later. At this point, I simply contribute the thought that it is critical that Parliament should be a significant part of the whole of this legislation so that it can exercise its wisdom, experience and commitment. Secondly, as we discussed, I hope my noble friend, for whom I have a great deal of respect, will recognise that academic freedom is not one of a number of priorities but the central one.

Higher Education: Overseas Students

Baroness Afshar Excerpts

Monday 19th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

That is all the more reason why we need to ensure that we give a warm welcome and send out a very clear message to those people that we want to come to this country to study and to contribute to the economy that we will not stand by and see our system abused by people who do not want to come here and study but instead want to come here to work.

[Baroness Afshar (CB)]

My Lords, is it possible to distinguish among non-scientists—people like me—who come to this country to study and then stay on? Non-scientists may not find immediate access to jobs but very often, in areas like post-war reconstruction, they have a great deal to contribute. I would have been very sorry if I had been sent home and not allowed to sit in your Lordships’ House.

[Lord Bates]

Exactly, and that is another fine example of how the system works. We want to encourage people. The system is far wider than students of science and technology. We simply give an example of those as people who we particularly want to stay on and contribute to the workforce and the economy, but of course there is a wider cultural benefit and value in having that interchange between people of different nationalities more widely in the arts and other subjects across our universities.

Tourism: Visa Restrictions

Baroness Afshar Excerpts

Thursday 25th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I think the noble Baroness is well aware that the Home Office has taken a decision about the UKBA, which will mean that the processing of visas is separate from enforcement from now on. This will make a considerable difference. I know John Vine and have a great deal of respect for him. His reports are always very high value and I believe that the UKBA is learning an enormous amount from the advice that he is giving them. The Home Office takes his report seriously.

[Baroness Afshar]

My Lords, following the advice given to me by the Minister, I have been encouraging Iranian women applying for visas to this country to continue to do so. Unfortunately, however, I understand that while they are in an Arab country that can give them visas, they are required to stay for a long period before they can actually get them. The expense therefore remains prohibitive, which means that many students who wish to study here, whom the Government assure us they wish to come, cannot do so simply because of the delay and the huge expense of living outside their countries, where they cannot get their money out anyway.

Visas: Student Visa Policy

Baroness Afshar Excerpts

Thursday 31st January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Afshar]

My Lords, as an erstwhile foreign student in this country, I assure noble Lords that those of us who studied here in the halcyon days when we did not have to be measured by how much money we had took home wonderful memories and remain committed to this country. I guess that the 3% who stay now and those who, like me, returned generally do so for love rather than money. The good will that has been created so painfully over so many years is being completely destroyed by the Kafkaesque quagmire that is being created for the students who want to come here and for those who want to extend their visas by three or six months in order to complete their theses, about whom I particularly want to speak.

I cite the case of a single student, but I know that it represents a large number of others. This student had the necessary £10,000 in her account for the necessary 28 days before and all the rest of it. However, although she transferred the £10,000 from the deposit account into her current account, the day that this was being measured by the Home Office somehow it made a mistake.

The problem is that there is no one person to go to. If there is a mistake in your case, the only way to deal with it is to go to court. So the student had to hire a lawyer and go to court. The first court decided that she should leave. Then she had to appeal to a tribunal, which decided that the first court had erred but it did not give her any money; it did not reimburse her. Nor did it give her any evidence of its decision so that she could legally stay here. So the lawyer had to start again, making phone calls, and it took the student six months to assert her right to be in this country, by which time she was £10,000 the poorer. How she is going to stay here, complete her thesis and live is, for me, a problem. I do not see that students such as this or stories such as this are going to generate good will towards this country or bring back people who, like me, have remained committed for ever to this land.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Perhaps I may continue, because I, too, am time-limited and I will try to provide a comprehensive reply. I understand noble Lords’ interest in the matter, and I want to assist the House.

One key factor in why we need net migration figures and to note students’ presence in this country is because they are users of services. They form part of the requirements for public services, infrastructure and investment, and we need valid figures on which to base those. If we ignored them as part and parcel of those statistics, that could distort our view of the requirements in those areas. However, I note the arguments of noble Lords on this issue. I can say only that, at the end of the day, there are no limits on numbers.

The UK continues to have a great offer for international students at our world-renowned universities. Just yesterday, Universities UK stated:

“The UK remains one of the most popular destinations in the world for international students looking for a high-quality university experience”.

There is no limit on the number who can come, provided they meet language and academic requirements and can support themselves in the UK. As I said, there are generous work entitlements both during and after their study. Those securing a graduate-level job paying £20,000 a year can switch to a work route, and there are additional opportunities under our graduate entrepreneur scheme.

The Home Secretary recently announced further measures to encourage the brightest and best international students to stay and to contribute to economic growth. All completing PhD students will be allowed to remain in the UK for 12 months to find skilled work or to set up as an entrepreneur. We will add an extra 1,000 places to our graduate entrepreneur scheme.

[Baroness Afshar]

I beg the Minister’s pardon, but that is not what my students are experiencing. If it costs £10,000 to establish your right to complete your thesis, those good intentions are not reflected in reality.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That is not the experience. All the figures seem to show that graduate engagement post-PhD is an increasing area. Indeed, we are doing as much as we can to encourage it through our graduate entrepreneur scheme, as I said, for talented MBA graduates to stay to build businesses in this country. I hope that reassures the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, who was concerned about this.

The Government want to send a positive message—not, if the noble Baroness will forgive me for saying so, a negative one—about the prospect of graduate engagement post-degree in this country. The sector needs to take on the responsibility for promoting a positive message. We want to work with universities to protect not just the integrity of the immigration system but the reputation of the British education system around the world, just as my noble friend Lord Lucas said. He made a thoughtful speech and I am happy to organise a meeting for him.

The Government will continue to monitor strictly the adherence of universities as well as colleges to our rules and the UK Border Agency will work with universities on a system of co-regulation to make sure that we enforce student sponsorship obligations and protect the interests of legitimate students. UKBA has had some unreasonable criticism. It is surely right to ensure that we maintain a generous but proper regime for managing these matters. The Border Agency’s decision to revoke London Met’s sponsor licence was the right one. The agency worked with the university over several months to rectify the issues found. The Government took action to protect legitimate students and allow them to keep studying.

It does not serve the reputation of British education to ignore failings of this kind. As we are reducing student visas by tackling abuse, the number of successful applicants to study at British universities is up. This success means we can look forward to a period of stability on student migration policy. That stability will help the Government and universities to give a clear message that the UK has a great offer to international students and that genuine students are welcome here. This offer supports what should be the main attraction for international students—not visa conditions or rights to work but the quality of the education that is to be found in our country.

Immigration: Controls at Airports

Baroness Afshar Excerpts

Wednesday 16th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I cannot give an answer to my noble friend on an individual case. If he wishes to write to me, I will be more than happy to take a look at that case.

[Baroness Afshar]

My Lords, there are very simple answers to these problems, and we need better training for the immigration officers. I refer to the way in which they treated me when I came through and waved my passport at a British entrance. Because I was born in Iran, I was treated like a real terrorist. I kept on saying, “Look, it says ‘Baroness’ here”, and he said, “Oh, I thought that was your first name”. I really do think that they need better training.

[Lord Henley]

I am sure that the noble Baroness is right to point to the need for better training. I am sure that the border force and the border agency will take that on board. But it is more than that; there are other matters that we can deal with to improve service in this area.