House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill

Debate between Baroness Barran and Lord Caine

Report stage
Wednesday 9th July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, I too was happy to put my name to the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord True, and agree with the points that my noble friends have made so far.

In contrast to the rest of the Bill, where we have been debating complex and profound elements of our constitution, this—as we have heard—is a much more common-sense amendment. It could be fixed with a single clause or even, to placate the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, a sunset clause attached to it if others agreed that more reform was needed. In addition to the points made about being paid fairly for the work that one does, attracting the best talent from the widest pool and adopting an approach of meritocracy, as my noble friend Lord Markham said, I will make a couple of other points.

The first is stability. Both the previous and current Governments have been able to attract people of great talent, reputation and achievement, but historically that has not always been a stable ministerial model. Stability is important for delivering and executing a Government’s policy effectively. If a Minister changes every year, that is unhelpful, and I know that a number of previous Ministers have felt unable to continue in their role, despite the unquestioned expertise that they brought to it.

As has been touched on, there is also an effectiveness point. I was fortunate to be a Minister in the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport and the Department for Education. In the Department for Education, I did pretty much all my visits on a Friday because I needed to claim my expenses—or allowance, whatever it is called—for attending your Lordships’ House. As has been noted, colleagues in the Foreign Office, the Ministry of Defence and so forth were not able to.

An article in the Times in 2023 reported a Conservative Back-Bencher—I am dying to know who it was—as saying:

“You can always find ambitious flunkies who will do it—but it is much harder to find anyone good”.


I have to say that I have never thought of myself as an ambitious flunkey, and I worked with excellent fellow Ministers. For me, being a Minister, although I was unpaid, was the highlight of my career. I would do it again like a shot, paid or unpaid, but it is not a choice we should ask potential Ministers to make.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to give strong support to the amendment moved so ably by my noble friend. Like other noble Lords, I do so on the basis of some experience.

In November 2021, I was invited to join the Government as a Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Northern Ireland Office. I had been involved in the affairs of Northern Ireland since the mid-1980s and advised six Secretaries of State, so it was familiar territory for me. At the time, however, it was made clear that there was no salary. Ministers of the Crown are rightly forbidden from having outside interests. As has been pointed out, some are fortunate enough to be independently wealthy. Alas, I was not in that category. As a result, for reasons that will be understood across the House, it was necessary for me to attend your Lordships’ House each sitting day.

Being an effective Northern Ireland Office Minister requires a significant amount of engagement and visibility within Northern Ireland itself, but I was severely constrained from doing that for a year. For that first year, invitations to attend events or meetings from Monday to Wednesday—or to substitute for other Ministers who might have three-line Whips in the other place—had to be declined.

Noble Lords will be familiar with the ongoing significance of US involvement in the affairs of Northern Ireland and of the importance of engaging directly with Irish America. Of the ministerial team of three— I assure my noble friend Lord Forsyth—at the NIO at the time, I had by far the most experience in these matters and the best network of contacts. So in March 2022, then Secretary of State Brandon Lewis asked me to accompany him on the annual week-long St Patrick’s visit, which typically involves high-level meetings at the Executive Office, the State Department, the House Speaker’s lunch and the President’s reception at the White House. I see the noble Lord, Lord Hain, in his place; he will be familiar with those events. It is essential that the UK Government’s voice is heard during this frantic week. Unfortunately, however, I had to decline the invitation in order to attend your Lordships’ House. It was, to put it mildly, a less than satisfactory situation and, as has been referred to, a number of my noble friends had similar problems when they were in government.

It cannot be right that Members of your Lordships’ House have to face the challenges with which I grappled for a year and be expected to perform as Ministers without a salary—frankly, it is absurd. The Prime Minister himself is certainly aware of this issue, as he discussed it with me as a problem to be resolved during an event that we both attended at Hillsborough Castle in April 2023. I strongly support my noble friend and urge the Lord Privy Seal, herself a distinguished former Northern Ireland Office Minister, to accept this sensible and necessary amendment.

Sport Sector: Financial Support

Debate between Baroness Barran and Lord Caine

Wednesday 25th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I was wondering which bowler I would rather face if I were batting at this hypothetical wicket—but, with the greatest respect to the noble Lord, we probably know which one it is. In answer to his question, the reason that funding has not been made available to country cricket is that we were reassured by the ECB that it had the means to support all the counties over the winter. If the restrictions continue beyond 1 April, we will consider whether some form of additional support is needed.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my interests as set out in the register. On behalf of the entire rugby league family, I thank my noble friend and the Government for the additional funding in the package of £12 million for rugby league, coming on top of the £16 million announced in May, all of which is vital support for clubs that are at the very heart of their communities. May I also underline the absolute necessity of ensuring a return to paying spectators for the start of the 2021 rugby league season—a season which, as my noble friend will know, concludes with the rugby league World Cup? It promises to be the biggest and most ambitious ever, and I am pleased to say that there is already an unprecedented demand for tickets.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Well, I am delighted to hear from my noble friend about the demand for tickets for the rugby World Cup. I stress that we appreciate and understand the importance of rugby league to communities around the country and the very positive benefit it brings to so many people’s lives. One of my most memorable visits, in the days when we were allowed such visits, was to watch the Castleford Tigers women’s team training. It was very cold but it was very inspiring. To address my noble friend’s question more directly, obviously we are working very hard to ensure that spectators can return to stadia as safely as possible, and we are working closely in consultation with the sporting bodies, health and safety experts and officials to do this. We are making real progress. To have a truly successful World Cup event, we need a good, sustainable and solid domestic game, and we are working hard towards that.

Covid-19: Performing Arts

Debate between Baroness Barran and Lord Caine

Monday 13th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran]

I acknowledge that the Covid-19 crisis has presented a particular challenge for freelancers. The package will support cultural institutions, which means the physical and the human fabric of those institutions. The department is working with our arm’s-length bodies to get the funds out as quickly as possible, and the noble Baroness will be aware that stage 3 of the road map has now been reached, meaning that outdoor socially distanced live performances are now possible.

[Lord Caine (Con) [V]]

My Lords, having raised the plight of small music venues previously, I warmly commend the Government for the unprecedented package of support announced last week, which for many will be the difference between closure and survival. With venue owners now looking forward to planning schedules and reopening, particularly in time for the all-important Christmas period, I follow the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Hudnall, in urging the Minister to do everything possible to ensure that the application process for funds can be expedited as quickly as possible so that support reaches those most in need.

[Baroness Barran]

My noble friend is right to highlight the importance of bringing back our live music venues as quickly as is safe to do so. We hope that the application process for funding will be open by the end of the month and that funds will start to flow from the autumn, but there is a small amount set aside for those in short-term distress, and obviously, a number of arm’s-length bodies have already been actively distributing funds over the last few months.

Covid-19: Sports

Debate between Baroness Barran and Lord Caine

Wednesday 13th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and draw attention to my interests in the register.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government recognise the impact that Covid-19 is having on the sports sector. We continue to engage with sporting organisations to understand how it is affecting them and to provide support. The Chancellor has already announced a host of measures to help businesses, with £330 billion of government-backed guaranteed loans as well as the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme. In addition, our national sports council, Sport England, has announced £210 million of funding to help sport and physical activity organisations to deal with the short and long-term effects of the pandemic.

[Lord Caine]

I am grateful to my noble friend for that reply. As she will be aware, few, if any, sports are embedded within communities quite like rugby league, particularly here in the north of England. On behalf of the entire rugby league family, I therefore thank the Government for recognising the special place that our great sport has in society through the vital support package that was announced on 1 May. I commend also the work of the Rugby Football League. What discussions are now taking place on a road map to allow the season to resume—it has in fact only just begun—behind closed doors at first, beginning with allowing players to start training?

[Baroness Barran]

I take this opportunity to thank my noble friend for the work that he has done in this area. I recognise the role that rugby league plays in communities, having visited the Castleford Tigers ladies team training—I think he is a Leeds Rhinos fan, but we can agree on the impact. In addition to the guidance published on Monday on how to ease lockdown and resume training for different sports, officials are convening with medical officers to share best practice and planning, looking at a safe return to training. That is obviously a first step to returning to fixtures. We know that rugby league will work within this and the public health guidance that goes with it.

Covid-19: Music Sector and Creative Economy

Debate between Baroness Barran and Lord Caine

Thursday 23rd April 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran]

The decision about the ban on large-scale gatherings will obviously be driven by the scientific advice which the Government receive. More broadly, the department is now starting to work on plans for how we emerge from this crisis, but we do not underestimate the challenge that some degree of long-term social distancing poses to the economic model that orchestras, theatres and others will face.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, while much of the focus will be on the so-called high-end events affected by Covid-19, including many festivals cancelled this summer, will my noble friend also consider the plight of small music venues, which play a key role in nurturing new talent as well as being essential and important community assets? Many world-conquering British rock bands started out playing to small audiences in such venues. Earlier this month, the Music Venue Trust warned that over 500 such small venues could face permanent closure as a result of lockdown. Can the Government do anything more to support them?

[Baroness Barran]

I thank my noble friend for his question. We recognise the financial challenges which small venues face, particularly those in London that might not benefit from the relief to business rates because they have a rateable value above £51,000. We are grateful to the Music Venue Trust for the work it is doing to gather evidence from the sector, and we will use that to inform our plans as we move forward.