Lords Spiritual (Women) Bill
Baroness Berridge Excerpts(9 years, 3 months ago)
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Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, it is a relief to sit down to write a speech on this issue and think that just about everything has been said, so I shall be succinct but expand briefly on a point I have raised before. As I have lived in Stockport and fought in vain to represent it in the other place, I was particularly pleased to see that the first woman bishop to be appointed was the Bishop of Stockport.
I welcome this legislation as I wrote to this effect in The House Magazine many months ago outlining that whatever one’s view might be on church governance, the nation’s legislature is a different matter and women must be represented. I am grateful for the previous debates on this matter as they have enabled me to hear from my noble friend Lady Perry and others who have fought this battle for many years with compassion and grace. The next generation like me can sometimes forget how hard the going has been on an issue like this. This issue is also important due to the global nature of the Anglican communion and, of course, there are women bishops in many provinces already. I learnt from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwark that sometimes diocesan bishops are requested to travel overseas as somewhat of a representative of the Archbishop of Canterbury, such as his recent trip with the Holy See delegation to the Middle East. It would be such a powerful statement if on such occasions in the future the representative of the most reverend Primate is a woman.
However, you sometimes have to be careful about what you wish for as bringing in women could leave the major metropolitan centres of the north-west unrepresented for many years. The representative nature of the Bishops’ Benches is one of the things the Church of England prides itself on, so I hope that the fine tuning of the system to add Bishops to the Lords spiritual can be done in the same manner as the changes the House is gradually making before the whole Chamber is reformed. Is it really appropriate in the 21st century not to bring in automatically Birmingham and either Liverpool or Manchester over the diocese of Winchester which includes, merely legally at the moment, the Channel Islands, which are not part of the United Kingdom?
I turn now to the matter I wish to expand upon. The photograph of the bishops taken at the consecration of the Bishop of Stockport unfortunately raises a further issue for the Lords spiritual, which is the lack of racial diversity. In October 2015, it was a privilege to witness the most reverend Primate address 40,000 people at the ExCeL centre from the Redeemed Christian Church of God, a Nigerian-based denomination which is the fastest growing church in the UK. His apology and request for forgiveness for the past behaviour of some of the Anglican Church towards Britain’s black community was most moving. I hope it will lead to a true partnership and perhaps to leaders for the Anglican Church coming through joint initiatives with RCCG and Pastor Agu Irukwu, who I suspect the most reverend Primate would poach for the Anglican Church, given half a chance.
Is this issue of the lack of racial diversity unconnected to the matter I raised previously of the lack of diversity of educational and social background of diocesan leaders? Much of the racial diversity of our independent schools comes from overseas students who, of course, would be good to recruit, but surely not alone. Does this stone not need fully unturning and looking at? I am sorry to say that I was not entirely satisfied with the response of the most reverend Primate in a previous debate who said that when he has been involved in selection, background is never raised. As many noble Lords will have experienced, the issues are unconscious bias and barriers to entry. At the very least, they are worthy of investigation. Would the church not benefit from something like Vicar First mirroring Teach First for graduates? Not all the people I knew when I left university were able, through contacts, to raise a year or so’s support. Is the most reverend Primate satisfied that all the apprentices or volunteers that many churches have are on the London living wage as recommended by the Church of England? Of course, no one is asked outright what their dad did for a living or what type of school they went to. To use the analogy of racism again, I have had direct experience of people anglicising their names and suddenly finding that the same CV gets them a job interview. Both barriers to entry and unconscious bias are worthy of inquiry. I welcome the transparency that the Green proposals will bring, but without investigation, I remain to be convinced that the lack of social and educational diversity is not linked to the lack of racial diversity.
Finally, it may be time for us to stop speaking but not to down tools. The Anglican Church’s attitude to women is about more than allowing women bishops. It is so encouraging to see females in senior management roles in Lambeth Palace—Kay Brock is chief of staff, Jo Bailey Wells is chaplain and Ailsa Anderson is head of media, but it may be harder and take longer to change the culture within some parts of the Anglican Church. I hope to see that institution one day mirror the respect and value for my opinion displayed by the Lords spiritual. It is sometimes rather odd to be a younger person in a workplace such as this and to refer to your colleagues as bishops. I hope that attitude of respect and valuing opinion will find its way all the way down to the pews in the Anglican Church.
Criminal Justice and Courts Bill
Baroness Berridge Excerpts(9 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, I shall speak briefly on the amendment proposed by my noble friend Lord Marks. First, on a point of agreement, he will have seen that under Amendment 65 in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Browning it would of course be possible for the court to take into account the circumstances of the previous offence that was what I will call the “trigger” for this provision. Those circumstances could be taken into account.
With regard to the second point, we outlined in Committee that under new Section (6B) in Clause 27(4) there is a judicial discretion not to impose a mandatory sentence unless there are particular circumstances that relate to the offence, the offender or the previous offence and it would be unjust to do so in the circumstances. I would be interested to know the Minister’s opinion on whether the likely impact on the child of the offence would be included in the consideration of the welfare of the child, which is part of the other amendments that my noble friend and I have tabled.
In relation to a third point, the imposition of a mandatory requirement on young people aged 16 and 17—
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames
Before my noble friend gets on to her third point regarding 16 and 17 year-olds, may I just ask her whether she was saying in her previous remarks that if it is the case that the likely impact of the offence is not caught within the phrase,
“the circumstances of the offender”,
she will therefore support that amendment of mine?
Baroness Berridge
No. In relation to the likely impact, my point was whether that is considered under the requirement in the Children and Young Persons Act to take into account the welfare of the child.
With regard to 16 and 17 year-olds, it is already the position that they are covered under the mandatory sentencing provisions if they are convicted twice of the offence of threatening with a knife, so it would be inconsistent not to include 16 and 17 year-olds under these provisions where there will be mandatory provisions when you are twice convicted of the offence of the possession of a knife.
I understand that there is not a clear age of majority in this country, but when you can marry and join the Army at age 16, if you have been found in possession of a knife and convicted of that offence and then been found in possession of a knife again by the time you are 17, I do not think it is unduly harsh to say to those young people that a prison sentence is to be imposed unless the provisions of proposed new Section (6B) are found to apply by the judge.
Finally, in relation to the disproportionality issue for black and ethnic minority young people which I have mentioned previously in your Lordships’ House, it is clear that it is also the case that those young people are disproportionately the victims of knife crime. If one is going to plead disproportionality, one has to look not only at offenders but also at victims. The use of knives on young black people—particularly men—is an issue of grave concern in that community, so one has to look at both sides of that issue and not just at the disproportionality of offenders.
Lord Carlile of Berriew
My Lords, I speak in support of my noble friend Lord Marks and will make two points. First, over recent years, I have been involved in a lot of work and study about the treatment of young offenders, partly during the time I spent as president of the Howard League for Penal Reform and partly in preparing reports requested by others. One of the givens of studies of youth penalties—of youth sentencing—is that short sentences by and large are not beneficial: they are usually destructive. They destroy ties with education, they damage ties with family, and they remove ties with good friends as well as, of course, bad friends. This has been recognised by the Youth Justice Board. One of the reasons for the reduction in the number of children in custody, as mentioned by my noble friend Lord Marks, is that it has been seen by the courts that non-custodial dispositions, on the whole, are far more constructive.
That leads me to my second point, which is about judicial—or court—discretion. I do not want to dress this up too grandly, because most of the group we are talking about appear before a youth court in their own local areas, and there is much about youth courts that needs to be reformed. That said, whenever a case comes before a youth court, the court hears all the facts about the young person concerned. It hears the facts of the case; if the defence is properly prepared, it hears about the young person concerned and about everything that has happened in their past. Many of those children who appear before courts—there is no difference in this regard between 16 and 17 year-olds and the immediately younger age group—come from very deprived backgrounds. They usually have had very little attention paid to them and more than half of them have at least one mental health issue—some have multiple mental health issues—that needs to be addressed. To deprive an experienced court of the discretion to impose a non-custodial sentence when that might fly in the face of the merits as set out in the facts and reports before the court is really an astounding proposition. I challenge the Minister to produce any empirical evidence—any studies— showing that this is a proposal that is justified on the merits. I urge him to accept that it is an error of judgment to include 16 and 17 year-olds in this provision.
Baroness Berridge
My Lords, although my noble friend Lady Browning states that she is not a lawyer, I think that she has outlined to your Lordships’ House in comprehensive detail the changes that are needed to ensure that this amendment, which was made in the other place, does not cause conflict with existing legislation.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, this group of amendments raises important issues, just as we saw with the previous group, concerning the possession of an offensive weapon or a bladed article.
I have the greatest respect for the noble Baronesses, Lady Browning and Lady Berridge. They make some very important points but I am not convinced by their arguments that what they seek is necessary. As I said previously, knife crime can have a devastating effect, not only on the person who is killed or seriously injured but on the life of the offender. In Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Blair of Boughton, told the House that he had to speak to many families whose loved ones had been murdered in such circumstances and saw at first hand the devastating effects of that. We have to get the balance right. For this group of amendments, my previous suggestion stands: we need to look at this whole area and review it after a couple of years. If the Government come back then and look at how the whole Act is operating, that is the best way forward.
I will listen very carefully to the reply by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, especially with respect to increasing the scope to include people convicted of an offence under various military and Armed Forces Acts. Clearly the noble Baronesses have considered this very carefully. However, I am not convinced that to put in the Bill an amendment that a court must have regard to the duty under Section 44 is necessary. I am sure the Minister will respond to that as well.
Baroness Berridge
My Lords, I support the arguments made by my noble friends in relation to this matter. I am pleased to say that, unlike the previous amendment regarding knife crime, there has been agreement, particularly among the Back Benches and the government Benches, on the need to act. I pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Morris of Bolton, who joined me in amendments in Committee but is not able to be here today.
One point that I would make in addition to those that have already been outlined is that these images are not always taken with consent. The development of technology has meant that in situations unbeknown to someone, images are taken through hidden devices and mobile phones. So it might not even be an old Polaroid; people might be completely unaware that an image has been taken, and the first that they know of it is when their ex-partner releases it into the public domain, adding even greater trauma to what is an incredibly traumatic situation for any victim. Unfortunately, there has been the development of certain professional sites where people are making profit out of this situation.
I also join in welcoming the Government’s response in relation to this. I have never found a firm view at the Ministry of Justice on this matter; I have always found there to be an open door and a willingness to consider it. As has been outlined, technology has been leaping ahead in relation to this matter. I pay tribute to the work of organisations such as Women’s Aid and to my right honourable friend Maria Miller, who led a Back-Bench debate in the other place on this issue and has been campaigning vociferously in relation to it.
Baroness Thornton
My Lords, I am pleased to say that we on these Benches support these amendments. Some time ago my right honourable friend Yvette Cooper said that people who post intimate images of their former partners online in so-called revenge porn attacks, or who blackmail them with such images, should face new criminal charges, so of course we support the amendments.
The use of intimate, private sexual images as a weapon with which to embarrass, humiliate and degrade is a crime, and it is right that it should be recognised in law. The new offence is a positive step, although in itself it is not adequate to address the underlying societal attitudes and behaviours that create and legitimise sexual violence, abuse and harassment in all its forms, so a government commitment to addressing those issues is also vital. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, is quite right to raise the issue of young people and the importance of not criminalising them or, for example, having them put on the sex offender register at a very early age for doing the extremely stupid things that young people are sometimes prone to doing.
The Government’s amendments will ensure that this is enacted. However, we need to ask today how effective they will be. I therefore have a series of questions to put to the Minister and to the noble Lord, Lord Marks. Could the Minister explain why this offence was not made part of the Sexual Offences Act? Will convictions for this offence be recorded by the CPS as a sex offence—in other words, would the person convicted be on the sex offender register?
As it stands, depending on the interpretation of “distress”, the law will provide a remedy to a victim who is distressed, but not angry. Professors Rackley and McGlynn, who have been advising many Members of the House throughout the discussions about revenge porn and rape porn, explained that the focus of the law should be on the offender’s actions and the absence of consent, not on the victim’s response, and I think that is right. Does the distress element also place an unnecessary additional burden on the prosecution? Professors Rackley and McGlynn contend that the mental element of the offence should be the intentional act of posting private sexual images without consent, including for the purpose of financial gain. We have to ask whether the issue of distress could actually significantly limit the effectiveness of this offence.
There is concern about the restriction of the offence to identifiable images. It should be immaterial whether someone else recognises the person in the relevant image. The publishing of private sexual images without consent should be a criminal offence, whatever the motivation of the offender and whatever form the victim’s response takes. It is the absence of consent that is fundamental. Would the restriction of the offence to identifiable images result in unnecessarily complicated evidential debates in court?
I will speak briefly to my own Amendment 106. It seems to us that we need to monitor the effectiveness and the implementation of this new law. We believe that the proposals of Clause 31 do not fulfil the Prime Minister’s commitment to equate online restrictions with the BBFC’s guidelines. Although we recognise that legislation in this area is very complex, it needs to be recognised that the Government have not yet solved the problem. It is important that there is a commitment to review the provisions of this clause within a year or so to assess their effectiveness: the number of prosecutions brought, the number of convictions, et cetera. Following a review of the new provisions, if they have not proved effective, the Government should consider the wholesale review of the regulation of obscenity and pornography. This is to ensure that the law is fit for purpose in our technological age and to reorientate the law in this area away from disgust and distaste and toward a focus, perhaps, on cultural harm—a discussion that we have had in this House before. It is therefore important to put in the Bill that 18 months from enactment would be sufficient time to see what was happening to the new regime and that the principle should be that an independent review is conducted.
Baroness Berridge
SchedulePossessing an offensive weapon etc: consequential provisionMental Health Act 1983 (c. 20)1 In section 37(1A) of the Mental Health Act 1983 (powers of courts to order hospital admission or guardianship)—
(a) in paragraph (za), after “section” insert “1(2B) or”, and(b) in paragraph (aa), after “section” insert “139(6B), 139A(5B) or”.Criminal Justice Act 1988 (c. 33)2 In section 36(2)(b) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (reviews of sentencing)—
(a) in sub-paragraph (zi), after “section” insert “1(2B) or”, and(b) in sub-paragraph (ia), after “section” insert “139(6B), 139A(5B) or”.Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000 (c. 6)3 The Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000 is amended as follows.
4 (1) Section 12 (absolute and conditional discharge) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1), for the words from “section 110(2)” to “2006” substitute “a provision mentioned in subsection (1A)”.
(3) After that subsection insert—
“(1A) The provisions referred to in subsection (1) are—
(a) section 1(2B) or 1A(5) of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953;(b) section 51A(2) of the Firearms Act 1968;(c) section 139(6B), 139A(5B) or 139AA(7) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988;(d) section 110(2) or 111(2) of this Act;(e) section 224A, 225(2) or 226(2) of the Criminal Justice Act 2003;(f) section 29(4) or (6) of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006.”5 In section 100(1A) (offenders under 18: detention and training orders), for paragraphs (a) and (b) substitute—
“(a) section 1(2B) or 1A(5) of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 (minimum sentence for certain offences involving offensive weapons);(b) section 139(6B), 139A(5B) or 139AA(7) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (minimum sentence for certain offences involving article with blade or point or offensive weapon).” 6 (1) Section 130 (compensation orders against convicted persons) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (2), for the words from “section 110(2)” to “2006” substitute “a provision mentioned in subsection (2ZA)”.
(3) After that subsection insert—
“(2ZA) The provisions referred to in subsection (2) are—
(a) section 1(2B) or 1A(5) of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953;(b) section 51A(2) of the Firearms Act 1968;(c) section 139(6B), 139A(5B) or 139AA(7) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988;(d) section 110(2) or 111(2) of this Act;(e) section 224A, 225(2) or 226(2) of the Criminal Justice Act 2003;(f) section 29(4) or (6) of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006.”7 (1) Section 146 (driving disqualification for any offence) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (2), for the words from “section 110(2)” to “2006” substitute “a provision mentioned in subsection (2A)”.
(3) After that subsection insert—
“(2A) The provisions referred to in subsection (2) are—
(a) section 1(2B) or 1A(5) of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953;(b) section 51A(2) of the Firearms Act 1968;(c) section 139(6B), 139A(5B) or 139AA(7) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988;(d) section 110(2) or 111(2) of this Act;(e) section 224A, 225(2) or 226(2) of the Criminal Justice Act 2003;(f) section 29(4) or (6) of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006.”8 In section 164(3) (further interpretive provisions)—
(a) in paragraph (aa), after “section” insert “1(2B) or”, and(b) in paragraph (ba), after “section” insert “139(6B), 139(5B) or”.Criminal Justice Act 2003 (c. 44)9 The Criminal Justice Act 2003 is amended as follows.
10 (1) Section 142 (purposes of sentencing: offenders aged 18 or over) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (2)(c), for the words from “section 1A(5)” to “detention for life for certain dangerous offenders)” substitute “a provision mentioned in subsection (2A)”.
(3) After that subsection insert—
“(2AA) The provisions referred to in subsection (2)(c) are—
(a) section 1(2B) or 1A(5) of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 (minimum sentence for certain offences involving offensive weapons);(b) section 51A(2) of the Firearms Act 1968 (minimum sentence for certain firearms offences);(c) section 139(6B), 139A(5B) or 139AA(7) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (minimum sentence for certain offences involving article with blade or point or offensive weapon);(d) section 110(2) or 111(2) of the Sentencing Act (minimum sentence for certain drug trafficking and burglary offences);(e) section 224A of this Act (life sentence for second listed offence for certain dangerous offenders);(f) section 225(2) or 226(2) of this Act (imprisonment or detention for life for certain dangerous offenders);(g) section 29(4) or (6) of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (minimum sentence in certain cases of using someone to mind a weapon).” 11 (1) Section 142A (purposes of sentencing: offenders under 18) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (4), for paragraph (b) substitute—
“(b) to an offence the sentence for which falls to be imposed under a provision mentioned in subsection (5), or”.(3) At the end insert—
“(5) The provisions referred to in subsection (4)(b) are—
(a) section 1(2B) or 1A(5) of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 (minimum sentence for certain offences involving offensive weapons);(b) section 51A(2) of the Firearms Act 1968 (minimum sentence for certain firearms offences);(c) section 139(6B), 139A(5B) or 139AA(7) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (minimum sentence for certain offences involving article with blade or point or offensive weapon);(d) section 226(2) of this Act (detention for life for certain dangerous offenders);(e) section 29(6) of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (minimum sentence in certain cases of using someone to mind a weapon).”12 (1) Section 144 (reduction in sentences for early guilty pleas) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (2), for the words from “an offence” to “nothing” substitute “an offender who—
(a) is convicted of an offence the sentence for which falls to be imposed under a provision mentioned in subsection (3), and(b) is aged 18 or over when convicted,nothing”.(3) In subsection (3)—
(a) for “section 1A(6)(a)” substitute “section 1(2B) or 1A(5)”, and(b) for “section 139AA(8)(a)” substitute “section 139(6B), 139A(5B) or 139AA(7)”.(4) In subsection (4), for the words from “an offence” to “nothing” substitute “an offender who—
(a) is convicted of an offence the sentence for which falls to be imposed under a provision mentioned in subsection (5), and(b) is aged 16 or 17 when convicted,nothing”.(5) In subsection (5)—
(a) for “section 1A(6)(b)” substitute “section 1(2B) or 1A(5)”, and(b) for “section 139AA(8)(b)” substitute “section 139(6B), 139A(5B) or 139AA(7)”.13 In section 150(2) (community order not available where sentence fixed by law etc), for paragraphs (a) and (b) substitute—
“(a) falls to be imposed under section 1(2B) or 1A(5) of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 (minimum sentence for certain offences involving offensive weapons), or(b) falls to be imposed under section 139(6B), 139A(5B) or 139AA(7) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (minimum sentence for certain offences involving article with blade or point or offensive weapon).”14 (1) Section 152 (general restrictions on imposing discretionary custodial sentence) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1)(b), for the words from “section 1A(5)” to the end substitute “a provision mentioned in subsection (1A).”
(3) After that subsection insert—
“(1A) The provisions referred to in subsection (1)(b) are—
(a) section 1(2B) or 1A(5) of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953;(b) section 51A(2) of the Firearms Act 1968; (c) section 139(6B), 139A(5B) or 139AA(7) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988;(d) section 110(2) or 111(2) of the Sentencing Act;(e) section 224A, 225(2) or 226(2) of this Act;(f) section 29(4) or (6) of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006.”15 (1) Section 153 (length of discretionary custodial sentences: general provision) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (2), for the words from “section 1A(5)” to “this Act” substitute “the provisions listed in subsection (3)”.
(3) After that subsection insert—
“(3) The provisions referred to in subsection (2) are—
(a) sections 1(2B) and 1A(5) of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953;(b) section 51A(2) of the Firearms Act 1968;(c) sections 139(6B), 139A(5B) and 139AA(7) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988;(d) sections 110(2) and 111(2) of the Sentencing Act;(e) sections 226A(4) and 226B(2) of this Act;(f) section 29(4) or (6) of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006.”16 (1) Section 305(4) (interpretation of Part 12) is amended as follows.
(2) In paragraph (za)—
(a) for “subsection (5) of section 1A” substitute “section 1(2B) or 1A(5)”, and(b) for “that subsection” substitute “that provision”.(3) In paragraph (aa)—
(a) for “subsection (7) of section 139AA” substitute “section 139(6B), 139A(5B) or 139AA(7)”, and(b) for “that subsection” substitute “that provision”.Coroners and Justice Act 2009 (c. 25)17 (1) Section 125(6) of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 (sentencing guidelines: duty of court) is amended as follows.
(2) In paragraph (ea)—
(a) for “section” substitute “sections 1(2B) and”, and(b) for “offence of threatening with offensive weapon in public” substitute “certain offences involving offensive weapons”.(3) In paragraph (fa)—
(a) for “section” substitute “sections 139(6B), 139A(5B) and”, and(b) for “offence of threatening with” substitute “certain offences involving”.”
Criminal Justice and Courts Bill
Baroness Berridge Excerpts(9 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Howells of St Davids (Lab)
My Lords, I had not meant to take part in this debate; I am neither a lawyer nor a judge. However, at one time in this Chamber today I felt I was being given the strong impression that only black boys carried knives in this country. I want to put on record that this is not so. In cases with which I have been involved in Greenwich, young men were killed with knives not because they had committed a crime but because they were black. I should like that to be put on the record.
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, I raised this matter at Second Reading and draw to the Committee’s attention the fact that the amendment was tabled by Nick de Bois, an Enfield MP, strongly supported by David Burrowes, another MP for the Enfield borough. It is a borough not unfamiliar with knife crime, which in some cases involves fatality. These are MPs who have direct experience and I hope that that ameliorates the suggestion that this provision is just a knee-jerk reaction. Knife crime has been an issue for Enfield for some time. It has also been drawn to the House’s attention by the Lord Chief Justice that we have a problem. Whether this is the correct solution is another matter but we have a problem with the carrying of knives by young people that is often seen as some kind of status symbol.
I remind your Lordships of what perhaps seems an obvious point. There have to be two convictions before this power comes into play. I have read of situations in the media in which people have carried penknives. One would have to possess these weapons,
“without lawful authority or reasonable excuse”.
This does not apply to anyone accidentally having a knife left over from pruning the roses or working on the farm at the weekend. These are people who are carrying knives without being able to provide an excuse. This power is supported by not only the former commissioner but the current Metropolitan Police Commissioner, who said:
“Where we are getting gang members or young people carrying knives and there is no excuse, then this is a serious matter for me”.
So we also have the Metropolitan Police saying that it wants additional powers in relation to knife crime. I have looked at the discretion given, and this is not a mandatory provision that necessarily would lead to injustice.
I should really like to highlight the issue of discrimination, and I strongly disagree with my noble friends on this. I raised this matter way back, in my maiden speech. There sometimes seems to be a disproportionately low response to victims of violent crime when they are not white. One must not forget that, in this situation, the figures from when I checked—I thank the Library—show that one is twice as likely in London to be a victim of knife crime if you are black. From my experience of speaking to community leaders, they are extremely concerned about the effect of this on their own communities. They are the victims of this, so it is flawed to suggest that the provision is discriminatory because of stop-and-search powers. I accept that elements of our criminal justice system have been discriminatory over the years and one can point to the discussion in the other place involving the Home Secretary, who has brought in a review of stop and search. Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary has looked at this, and the Home Secretary had the support of Diane Abbott, of all people. We had grasped a nettle that had not been grasped for a long time.
This Government have also rid the ethnic-minority communities of the injustice of a DNA database that held innocent people’s DNA. These issues have been addressed and it ignores the effect on victims in minority communities if we refer only to the perpetrators.
Baroness Walmsley (LD)
My Lords, I had not intended to speak in this debate and will do so briefly. I have listened carefully to those who oppose my noble friend Lord Marks, and I am afraid that I am not convinced by them for two reasons. First, the cases that they cite are ones in which the judge would almost certainly have sent the person to prison anyway. When somebody carries a knife with serious intent and uses it, that is when people go to prison. We do not need the clause for that reason.
The other point has not been mentioned at all. The clause is supposed to be a deterrent, mainly for young people, to prevent them getting involved in carrying knives in the first place, which is a very laudable objective. However, let us remember the development of children’s brains. The majority of the development of children’s brains happens between birth and three years of age, but there is a boost during the teenage years. That is when risk taking comes in. If noble Lords consider that, they will realise that a deterrent such as this very small prison sentence—I quite agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, that it will do nothing but harm—will certainly not deter someone whose brain is telling them, “Now you can take risks, and you should”.
Baroness Berridge
My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 40 in this group. It seeks to introduce a new criminal but also sexual offence of posting on the internet what has been outlined as revenge pornography. This is one of those rare situations where I do not advise noble Lords to go on to the internet to look first-hand at these sites; they are truly appalling. As my noble friend Lord Marks has outlined, this is a growing problem that affects mainly women, particularly when naked or sexually explicit pictures or videos of them have been posted on the internet without their consent. Obviously these images are put online almost exclusively by ex-partners, and there is generally an intention—which is why our clause is drafted as it is—to sexually humiliate the former partner. Often the contact details of the victim as well as sexually abusive or malicious comments are added when the image is posted.
There are dedicated websites that are easily accessible; this is not a niche problem. The UK Safer Internet Centre, which is working in this area, has stated that some 20 to 30 websites in the United Kingdom are hosting this type of material. Apparently it has become a consumer product on pay-per-view. Many of the websites attract huge volumes of traffic, and the more often an image is looked at, the more likely it is that when you Google search your own name, the first thing that will come up in connection with your name is these images that have been posted, which is particularly degrading.
These are pictures that the victim may regret were taken in the first place, but, as my noble friend outlined, there would have been every expectation that they were private and would not be viewed, sometimes within days, by thousands of people on the internet, including perhaps work colleagues and friends at the school gate. Of course, the impact can be devastating. Victims have described that they feel like they have become a porn star without their knowledge or consent. There are also devastating impacts on employment prospects as well as on personal reputation and career.
This is another situation where the law has not quite kept pace with the internet. I am grateful for my noble friend’s contribution to the drafting of the proposed new clause, which is based on the offence of voyeurism. I hope that the Minister will take all of these proposed clauses away in order to consider what would be the most appropriate formulation. However, we would submit that this should be classified as a sexual offence. Currently, these matters do not fall within the ambit of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 because they are not a course of conduct. They are also not caught by the Obscene Publications Act 1959 because the images are not always classified as being obscene.
It is important not only to make this behaviour criminal, but for the police to know that it is a criminal act in order that they can take action at police level and against the internet service providers. Once this is an offence, they will have a mechanism by which to remove these images, because many victims are complaining that without such clarity, they find that although they make submissions to the internet service providers again and again, the images are not being removed from these websites. Of course, the longer they remain posted, the greater the damage that is done to the victims.
At this point I wish to pay tribute to the very brave women who have put their head above the parapet and have spoken out in order to bring attention to this issue. I mention in particular Laura Higgins and the work of organisations such as the UK Safer Internet Centre. I am also pleased that Women’s Aid, Welsh Women’s Aid and Scottish Women’s Aid all support the amendment tabled by myself and my noble friend Lady Morris. Although this matter was not raised in the other place, honourable Members including my right honourable friend Maria Miller hosted an adjournment debate in June to bring it to the attention of Members of Parliament.
At the moment, Amendment 40 does not include any reference to penalties, but I hope that my noble friend will consider the similar offence of voyeurism, which carries with it a sentence of imprisonment of up to two years. We believe that this offence should attract the same scale of penalty. It is only by showing our abhorrence of the sexual abuse of these people that they will be able to secure justice.
This type of behaviour is becoming an ever more pressing problem, and other countries such as the United States and Israel have had to bring forward legislation to catch it. I believe that we should take this opportunity and I am grateful that the Minister is in listening mode in relation to this matter. I hope that that we can come up with an acceptable formulation of what the offence should be in order to offer these victims some protection.
Baroness Grender (LD)
My Lords, I apologise for having been unable to attend Second Reading. I will speak in particular in favour of Amendments 37, 38 and 39. To hear people talk about revenge porn, you would think it had only just been invented, but the divorce in 1963 of the Duke and Duchess of Argyll involving the infamous image of a headless man tells a different story. The dramatic difference is that of course today we have the ability to reproduce a picture a thousand times without the permission of the individual concerned. I will focus on one aspect of this, which is the motive to hurt or humiliate the individual.
I do not believe that on the whole the motivation is sexual gratification, as outlined in Amendment 40. Perhaps I may put before the Committee three case studies that will help to illustrate this. The first is of a lady who was with her partner for two years. They planned to buy a home together so it was a trusting relationship, but after it broke down, her ex published photos of her and labelled her as a “whore” and a “slut”. He even set up an identity pretending to be her and invited humiliation and insults. When she went to the police they were unable to help, and the website refused to remove the images, in spite of regular requests.
The second example is that of a woman whose images were posted on a website called myex.com. The images spiralled from website to website gathering views, comments, abuse and humiliation. While some porn sites actually responded to the woman’s specific requests to remove the images, myex.com did not. She currently remains terrified of family and work colleagues seeing the images. We need to be conscious of the fact that men can also be victims, although most are women. I cite the case of a 29 year-old man who exchanged images having been sent fake images by his girlfriend. His ex has shared them, particularly with his work colleagues.
These cases are ones that involve not naïve teenagers—although obviously I believe that they should be protected as well—but people who have been in trusting relationships where the trust has broken down. What has been done is something that we should clearly define as a crime. These people are our sisters, brothers, daughters and sons, and what they need is protection against these vile acts that are committed without their consent. The inflicting of pain and humiliation is the only motive, and the individual who publishes such images should know that when they do it, they are committing a crime. I hope that the Minister will reflect that when he considers a possible amendment to the Bill.
Assisted Dying Bill [HL]
Baroness Berridge Excerpts(9 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, as the youngest Peer speaking today, I suppose that I should be the least concerned about a Bill dealing with death. However, I believe that it is mine and younger generations who could be most affected by the Bill. We will live out the effects of the erosion of the social norm that we not only dissuade suicide but positively protect people from taking their lives, whoever they are.
The suspect in the custody suite and the convicted criminal in prison are put on suicide watch if necessary. Paracetamol packets are now limited to 32 tablets, Beachy Head is patrolled and the Golden Gate Bridge will soon have a net. King Edgar criminalised attempting suicide—ironically, probably to have men to fight wars—but we want our population alive as we are all equally precious. I have read with interest the reasoning in Hansard in 1961. The law criminalises assistance at a time of someone’s greatest vulnerability: when contemplating taking one’s own life. Although suicide and prostitution are not appropriate to be crimes, assisting suicide and controlling prostitution for gain are. The criminal law is upholding societal values. You may walk past the man on the bridge who is about to jump, as you are not required to rescue him, but if you intervene you do so to preserve life.
Noble Lords need only go online to see how necessary this reasoning is, and how relevant it is to the challenges that today’s young people face. Tallulah Wilson’s mother stated that companies should,
“withdraw their advertising from those sites who continue to host inappropriate self-harming and suicide-promoting blogs to stop this poison spreading”.
Her 15 year-old daughter, caught in a toxic digital world, threw herself under a train. Jango.com offers “Suicidal Tendencies” music, and it is estimated that between one in 12 and one in 15 young people in the UK self-harm. I contacted the vicar of a busy Oxford church who has spent years dealing with students—there are 1,200 in his congregation—and said, “What about self-harm?”. His text reply was, “EPIDEMIC”.
We are so much more than autonomy. Even in our youth we are actually dependent and often weak and vulnerable. Society’s value of human dignity cannot be collapsed into mere autonomy, as the Bill seeks to do. “Are you not compassionate to these people’s suffering and their right to choose?”, you might ask me. Of course I am, but law is about more than a small group of individuals’ rights against the state. Herein lies the main weakness of our human rights law; it fails to take into account the rights of the rest of society. I am a supporter of the European convention. We may be heading towards the constitutional irony that even if there were a declaration of incompatibility, Parliament could leave the law unchanged and we might in fact find ourselves backed by the Strasbourg court rather than undermined.
Law creates culture and affects the values of future generations. The decision to give health professionals, of all people, a role in assisting suicide would inevitably send a message about suicide itself and cannot be vacuum-packed away from the rest of our society. We legislate for a real and deeply imperfect world, a world not of speculation but of Westbourne View and Mid Staffordshire hospital—a world where increasingly you are valuable only if you are productive, good-looking, rich or in the media regularly. However, we also legislate now for a virtual world that is often explored only by the young, and is often far scarier and far more difficult to police. The Bill undermines the societal value that we discourage suicide, and for this and other reasons I oppose it.
Criminal Justice and Courts Bill
Baroness Berridge Excerpts(9 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. Although I find it difficult to find a single theme within this Bill, there is much to commend some of the provisions and measures contained within it.
As a supporter of the No More Page 3 campaign, I note that the Bill terms certain images as “extreme” pornography, and may by amendment refer to “revenge” pornography, to differentiate it from other pornography that, unfortunately, has become so easily available in our society. I support this limit on such pornography, as the cultural effects of such images cannot be underestimated. As the Joint Committee on Human Rights report states, the demand for academic work in this area has often been oversimplistic in requiring strict cause and effect. However, I hold the basic view that if images did not have a substantial effect on individuals’ behaviour and on our culture, the advertising industry would not exist on the scale that it does.
In light of the current media focus on the activity of British citizens in Syria, the increase in sentences in the Bill for various terrorist offences, to enable them to come under the dangerous offenders sentencing regime, is a welcome message to the general public. It seems that the threat of criminal activity of this nature currently exceeds the actual convictions, but it is better to be prepared than to find the judiciary without the necessary powers.
The wisdom that I have seen over three years in your Lordships’ House from many octogenarians means that an increase from 70 to 75 for the maximum age to serve on a jury is long overdue.
From visiting category C prisons, I feel that the need to bring prescription drugs under the drug-testing regime is a loophole that should be closed. Currently, the searches of prisoners for prescription medication in their possession—without the corresponding prescription—are thorough, but I never fail to be surprised at the ingenuity of prisoners in hiding things. Drug testing is of course incontrovertible evidence of possession of these drugs.
The United Kingdom is blessed with some of the best medical care in the world, particularly in our accident and emergency departments. It is often only this care that saves the life of someone hit by a disqualified driver, but they may still end up maimed for life. The culpability of the driving behaviour is the same, and so an offence of causing serious injury by driving while disqualified is also very welcome.
I part company with my noble friend Lord Paddick on mandatory sentencing for the offence of possession of knives. I do not think it is any coincidence that the amendment was put forward in the other place by Nick de Bois and supported by David Burrowes, who are MPs for the Borough of Enfield, which, if one glances over the media, is a borough that has been disproportionately affected by knife crime. The possession of knives is now an even greater menace, particularly to young people, than the possession of guns. The strengthening of the sentencing powers within the Bill is welcome.
Therefore, while this speech further illustrates that the Bill is something of a pick and mix, I wonder whether there has been consideration by Her Majesty’s Government of further issues that could perhaps have been in the Bill. During the tragic murder of Drummer Lee Rigby there seemed to have been a risk that, due to the public nature of the incident, photographs of the armed police involved might have been taken by the public and found their way through Twitter into the public domain. Of course, the police were undoubtedly the heroes in this situation. However, what if the neighbour on the balcony who filmed the aftermath of the shooting of Mark Duggan had a slightly better mobile phone and the armed police could have been identified? Could my noble friend outline whether the police are indeed concerned about such a situation? Perhaps it is covered by other legislation, but I have been unable to find relevant provisions.
I would also be grateful if the Minister could outline whether the Government are satisfied with the current rules around the disclosure of the identity of young people charged with murder. Your Lordships may be aware that, in the recent case of the tragic murder of Ann Maguire in a Leeds school, there appeared to be a loophole in the law that allowed the identity of the offender to be released into the public domain after he was arrested but before he was charged. I would be grateful to note whether the Government wish to enact provisions that would close that loophole.
Finally, I wish to support the principle behind the introduction of secure colleges, whose aim is to remedy the often very poor educational attainment of young offenders, which has been outlined for your Lordships’ House. Enhancing their skills, of course, is one way to reduce reoffending, and having institutions for which this is their primary focus can only be an improvement. However, I would be grateful if the Minister could explain why these institutions would cover the age ranges 12 to 17 and why the reasons for the other institutions within the secure estate being divided between those aged under 16 and those aged over 16 do not apply to this type of institution.
I accept that some of the young people in secure colleges will have the physical strength of an adult, so I fully support the use of the reasonable force as a last resort and for the purposes of preventing harm to that child or to other children. Of course, where such force is used, it should be the minimum necessary. The suggestion that secure college rules can provide for force to be used on children to ensure good order and discipline leads me to worry about the capability of the providers of such colleges if they need such rules. While I appreciate that this education is within the secure estate, Serco or Wates employees able to use force, for instance to make a child stand in an orderly queue for a meal, reminds me of the teaching methods at Lowood Institution for orphans attended by Jane Eyre. I expect that this matter will be the subject of further discussion in your Lordships’ House, and although I am a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, I do not believe that I need to pray in aid any of our international obligations so much as the common law. I am proud to say that in all our education institutions, corporal punishment of this nature is a thing of the past and should remain so.
Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill
Baroness Berridge Excerpts(10 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Berridge
“( ) If an offence has been committed under subsection (1) or (2) in relation to any marriage (as defined in subsection (3) and whether conducted in England and Wales or elsewhere), then that marriage shall be treated for the purposes of the Matrimonial Causes Act 1973 as if the marriage was valid but annulled on the date that the offender was first charged with the offence.”
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, this amendment relates to Clause 108. For the purposes of the new criminal offence of forced marriage, the Bill has adopted the definition of marriage found in the Forced Marriage (Civil Protection) Act, which states that.
“‘marriage’” means any religious or civil ceremony of marriage (whether or not legally binding)”.
At first glance this seems to be a sensible definition as it is clear that some marriages, although not valid in our law, have such community, cultural or religious significance that the couple behave as if they are legally married. Forcing someone into such a de facto marriage should also be a criminal offence. Consenting to such a marriage is fine; forcing someone is not.
No one underestimates the variety and complexity of situations that lead people to find themselves in forced marriages. A cursory glance at the case law reveals that children are sometimes subjected to such marriages by their parents, and the law needs to be flexible in its remedies. Under Clause 108(3), let us imagine that a woman takes a brave step to come forward to complain about a forced marriage in a religious ceremony which is not, as the Bill envisages, valid in UK law. She may take that step after many years of marriage and it will take enormous courage. She will almost certainly have to testify in court against her so-called husband and perhaps other community or religious leaders. This may affect her acceptance within her community. Her husband and others may be convicted and sent to prison.
Of course, this woman may need supporting financially and there may be family assets such as a car, a pension, a business, inherited wealth and most probably a home. However, they could all be in the legal name of the husband, who is in prison. Ordinarily the woman seeks a divorce or an annulment, and in both types of proceedings the courts have wide-ranging powers to transfer or split the family assets—but herein lies the problem: this forced religious marriage cannot be annulled and cannot be the subject of divorce proceedings. It is not viewed in law by the family courts as a marriage; it has been inelegantly described as a “non-marriage”. Without the legal means to get an annulment or divorce, the woman cannot put in a proper claim for the family assets. In those circumstances she will most likely be making a claim for benefits, supported by the UK taxpayer instead of by any family assets. I also shudder to think of what she may feel like if after a few years in prison her so-called husband comes back to the community and waltzes back into the family home with all the assets. I very much doubt whether any other women will come forward and take such risks if, on top of everything else, by doing so they make themselves financially destitute, with recourse only to the benefits system. Without giving her the remedy of an annulment, which is what the amendment gives her, there may be a grave injustice.
Conversely, if a person is forced into a marriage that is valid under UK law the marriage is void and can be annulled, and the family assets divided up. The Bill therefore currently gives rise to the different treatment of women forced into a marriage that is not recognised in our law, as opposed to women forced into what would otherwise be a valid marriage. There is extensive human rights case law on such differential treatment. I should therefore be grateful if the Minister can outline, if he does not accept the amendment, what reasonable and objective justification the Government have for such differential treatment of women in analogous situations. In the absence of any such justification, the law should be amended to give women the option of petitioning for an annulment. A woman will not be required to do so, and there may be cases where it is not appropriate, but the law should give her the option. This legal definition of marriage has not previously been an issue under the civil protection order regime, as that was aimed at preventing such a marriage, as the name indicates. As the law is now dealing with criminalising a forced marriage that has occurred, obviously the remedies when that marriage ends—namely, divorce or annulment—have now become relevant. If religious marriage is recognised for the purpose of a civil protection order regime and now criminal law, should it not be recognised for the purpose of family law?
This amendment has been drafted narrowly, but we will need to ensure that it does not inadvertently give financial remedies to cohabitees. I was made aware of the general issue of religious marriages during the presentation of evidence from excellent women’s rights groups to the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which said that many women, even when they consent to the marriage, are not aware that the ceremony is not valid in UK law. In some cases they discover this only when, after many years of marriage, the husband says three times that he divorces them and walks out. Literally, the first person to explain the situation to her is a divorce solicitor, who says that he cannot help her as she is in a non-marriage. Coincidentally, I was visited this morning by Dr Siddiqui, from the British Muslims for Secular Democracy organisation, who said that the situation that there may be family assets after many years of marriage can, indeed, occur.
I would be grateful to know the Government’s view on this amendment, which I believe solves an obvious injustice, and whether the Government are going to grasp the issue of non-legally binding marriages, which is causing so much harm, and look at the matter comprehensively. The Government need to take a step back. Once a different definition of marriage has crept into our law, there can be many inadvertent consequences. They need to consider different solutions, such as making the provision of a civil marriage certificate a requirement before any person conducts a religious ceremony. Such an inquiry could also look at whether the basic legal requirements of how to be married under UK law need to be part of citizenship teaching, especially given the popular trend of travelling to sunnier climes for wedding ceremonies. I fear this is not common enough knowledge; your Lordships may remember that Mick Jagger and Jerry Hall had to get an annulment as they were not married under UK law. I beg to move.
Baroness Cox (CB)
My Lords, before I speak to Amendment 13, grouped with this amendment, I apologise for missing Second Reading as I was in South Sudan, where it was rather difficult to engage with parliamentary business here. I understand that a primary goal of the forced marriage provisions of the Bill is to increase the protection of victims of honour-based abuse while bringing perpetrators to justice. As noble Lords may be aware, this is also the primary concern of my Private Member’s Bill, the Arbitration and Mediation Services (Equality) Bill, which seeks to ensure that all citizens resident under the jurisdiction of England and Wales have equal access to the law, and to increase protection for those who suffer abuse and gender discrimination. One of the concerns underlying the reason for that Bill could be addressed by this amendment, which would make it an offence to solemnise a marriage in England and Wales according to the rites of any religion or belief in circumstances where the marriage is not also solemnised as a legal marriage under the terms of the Marriage Act 1949 if either or both parties to the marriage wrongly believe that they are married according to the law simply because they have been through a religious ceremony.
The amendment would tackle the problem that arises in some communities where those getting married, particularly women who are not familiar with English law or the customs of this country, undergo a religious marriage without understanding that they are not married according to English law. They are therefore unaware that they are without any legal protection. I think there are parallels here with the amendment just moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge.
In most cases, religious celebrants would not need to be concerned about committing the offence created by the amendment. They would not need to act any differently. Most marriages solemnised by religious celebrants are in registered buildings under the terms of the Marriage Act 1949. They are legal marriages. Under the Marriage Act 1949, a couple who have already entered into a civil marriage may go through a religious marriage ceremony after giving notice to a minister of religion, and on the production of a certificate of their marriage before the superintendent registrar.
Therefore, in circumstances when no certificate is provided, ministers of religion should already be on notice that a couple may not be married legally. In those situations when they are not sure that the parties properly understand the status of a religious ceremony, they may choose to say something about this publicly during the religious ceremony to ensure that there is no doubt, or they could choose to obtain a written declaration of understanding from the couple before proceeding with a marriage service. How they go about that procedure is a matter for them and the amendment does not seek to prescribe any particular means. What matters is that when there is some doubt as to the understanding of the parties, my amendment would effectively require celebrants to ensure that the couple they are marrying only according to religious rites are fully aware of the status of the ceremony and its implications.
Baroness Berridge
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his outline in relation to this matter, but I believe I should join the club opened by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and take yet more legal advice, having consulted, of course, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, before raising this matter. I will specifically check the section outlined in the Matrimonial Causes Act, which I think applies only to marriages already valid under UK law. With that in mind, we may be back on Report to look at this matter further. I beg leave to withdraw.
Offender Rehabilitation Bill [HL]
Baroness Berridge Excerpts(10 years, 12 months ago)
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Baroness Berridge
My Lords, I will speak only briefly on the purpose of this Bill, as I spoke on these matters in response to the gracious Speech. Again, I declare my interest as a trustee of the charity Kainos Community.
When I looked in more detail at the outline of the release on licence and the supervision requirements for offenders serving less than two years, I could not help but think, “Why have we not done this before? It seems so obvious”. The Bill will increase public confidence in our sentencing regime because short, sharp shock sentences will no longer seem derisory and will no longer be easy, cheap headlines for newspapers. In fact, as is outlined in the very helpful Explanatory Notes to the Bill, a six-month sentence will comprise three months in custody, three months on licence and nine months of supervision. This is a total of 15 months during which, either by virtue of the original sentence or for the period of supervision, the offender will be under the purview of the courts. This is the best blend of getting tough on crime while also increasing the focus on the rehabilitation of the offender.
Although it is now many years since I did many breach of community orders in the Crown Court, it was very rare for the person to be sent back to prison. This led to many offenders not taking seriously the requirements of their community penalty. In fact, I always remember seeing the usher call a case, only to have to go and wake up the defendant, who was having 40 winks in the waiting area, such was the gravity he placed on the breach of his order. Although ultimately it is a matter for judicial discretion, I hope that the sentence of up to 14 days in prison is utilised. However, does the Bill mean that that short period of imprisonment for breach of a supervision order will trigger, in and of itself, a supervision order? I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify that point.
I am also very pleased to see clarity in the Bill, rather than in a statutory instrument, about which functions connected with bringing court proceedings for review of a community order, a suspended sentence or the drug rehabilitation requirements are exercisable only by a public sector provider. With the expansion of the involvement of the private and voluntary sector providers, such clarity of functions is essential.
The most pertinent parts of the consultation, and now of the Bill, are competition in the delivery of rehabilitation services, ensuring that the new system is responsive to local needs and paying providers for their services according to results. The highly imaginative concept of payment by results is, as I understand it, already part of the provision of rehabilitation within the prison estate. I would be grateful to know from the Minister what the practical experience is of calculating the results that have been achieved. What will be the position, once the Act is in force, if someone under a supervision requirement provided by one charity goes back into prison and on to a project, such as St Giles in Peterborough, then goes back under a supervision order provided by a different charity and is then reformed? How is it determined whose result this is—or is it a score draw, with everyone getting paid by the state for the outcome?
Furthermore, how will the new structure of the probation system ensure that it is responsive to local needs? The Ministry of Justice, along with the Department for Work and Pensions, issues huge contracts. Will Serco, Atos and G4S be the providers, with SMEs and local charities unable to get involved? How these principles will work in practice will depend on this, and some indication from the Minister would be most welcome.
Tucked away in paragraph 129 of the Explanatory Notes is a major key to the outcome of these initiatives. The paragraph suggests that it is anticipated that a large part of the funding for this additional service provision will be,
“dependent on the outcome of competing provision of probation services”,
which is not directly part of the Bill. It is essential for the success of the Bill that this “competing provision” delivers a service that is effective in qualitative terms. With the design of the new probation structure, it will be important that this is done with certainty from the outset, as I can say as a trustee of a voluntary organisation that the many reforms and changes to NOMS and ROMs were very destabilising. The new service needs to be robust in order to maximise the likelihood of the Bill having the intended highly beneficial effect.
Finally, we often speak of the low levels of literacy, mental health problems and drug issues of many prisoners, and of course that is true. However, when I have gone into Her Majesty’s Prison Stocken in Rutland to see Kainos work, I have always been struck by how talented a lot of prisoners are. Of course, there are some whom you would not wish to bump into in a dark alley. However, when I hear in conversation of their complicated family backgrounds and of how many people, usually men, came and went in their childhoods, I cannot keep track. It is like a family tree where part of it is stuck on temporarily with Velcro and then torn away. When playing dominoes on one occasion, a prisoner insisted that he was really good with numbers. My response was, “Yeah, yeah”, partly because I thought he was blagging and partly as I have to concentrate very hard on the dominoes because beating prisoners at pub games is very difficult. However, I had to eat my words when I discovered that he had got eight years for a first offence. It turned out that he was the banker for a multimillion pound drug racket. I then told him about the Prince’s Trust and starting his own business.
Although our role is to review and scrutinise legislation, I wonder whether practically your Lordships’ House could help with rehabilitation. In the Robing Room the largest painting is entitled “Hospitality”, which is something that the House does so well. Some noble Lords may be aware of a charity called The Clink, which runs restaurants in certain prisons where prisoners are trained to work in the hospitality industry. It is most successful, and it would be an excellent role model if the House employed a graduate from The Clink. Noble Lords may think that ex-offenders might fail our stringent security test. My contention is that while the House has ex-offenders on its Benches, ex-offenders should serve at its tables. I hope that the Bill succeeds and that short sentences will become part of reducing crime rather than having their current adverse effect of just equipping prisoners for further criminality.
House of Lords: Reform
Baroness Berridge Excerpts(12 years, 10 months ago)
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Baroness Berridge
My Lords, I speak in this debate with considerable reluctance, because I, too, was concerned about this House spending a considerable amount of parliamentary time on the issue when so many people are facing such difficult circumstances. I recently gazed at the supermarket shelves reflecting that there was hardly a loaf of bread for under £1. However, the more that I considered the draft Bill, ironically, it highlighted one of the main roles of your Lordships' House: to keep a long-term view when short-term considerations press in on government.
I am in favour of reform, but the reforms in the draft Bill are deeply flawed and could lead to our finely balanced constitution, which operates like a beautiful clock, being tampered with one too many times and jamming altogether. In my brief time in your Lordships’ House, I have come to view the relationship of this House to the other place rather like a boxer and his trainer. The other place throws a democratic punch, to be met by a mitt labelled delay, scrutiny or review. Perhaps another punch or two is thrown, but eventually, the boxer gets the prize. The trainer is there only to improve the boxer. By electing this Chamber, the trainer will become another boxer and the two will end up fighting or, worse still, they will be on the same team and there will be no fight at all, no scrutiny, review or delay.
A boxing match also needs a referee. Who will referee potential endless ping-pong between the two Chambers? Will it be a Joint Committee, a referendum, a YouGov survey or the judiciary? The draft Bill is silent. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Williamson of Horton: the other place will lose its supremacy once public opinion and the media, in any dispute between the Chambers, are on the side of senators. The judiciary just battled Facebook and Twitter and did not do so well. I do not believe that Members of the other place will fare any better.
I have also tried to imagine the doorstep conversations in elections under the draft Bill. I would have to ask for a person’s vote and explain, “No, I do not want your vote for me as your elected representative but as your elected reviewer, your elected scrutineer, your elected delayer”. I think that the final comment will have been shouted through a door shut in my face, and quite rightly.
What would my election literature look like? My whole CV condensed onto an A5 flyer? I do not believe that that would improve public confidence in our politics one bit.
The two elected Chambers will also clash at grass-roots level. As the noble Lords, Lord Faulkner of Worcester and Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, said, senators will take on case work in part of their areas. I think that I can feel a cold draught coming from the other place as chills go down their spines at the thought of theyworkforyou.com having senator and MP competitive league tables. Of course, if this would deliver a better service for constituents then it would be worth considering. The very valuable work of an elected representative dealing with constituents inquiries is rather like customer service from a big retailer, but I cannot think of any retailer that advises you to phone up twice, to speak to two people, to get two customer reference numbers and to have two people contacting the suppliers, as the likelihood of conflicting answers would increase.
On a serious note, hundreds of civil servants are at the end of hotlines from offices in this Palace doing their best to deal with complex cases. I believe that such duplication will be a waste of public resource as well as immensely frustrating to the civil servants who will find it impossible to tell a senator that they cannot deal with an inquiry because the MP called two days ago.
Much of what I now say regarding the Lords Spiritual applies to the current Chamber as well as to any reformed House. I would like to deal with the reality which is outlined in paragraph 91 of the White Paper, a paragraph with which I agree—that although historically they are here as independents, the reality is that they are seen as representatives of the Church of England.
I am impressed by the Lords Spiritual, who bring a sense of service to their community and a spiritual, moral and ethical perspective that enhances the independent nature of debate in your Lordships’ House. I believe that the work of this House is improved by each of the Benches having a blend of part-time and full-time Peers. I am deliberately avoiding using the term “working Peers” as it implies that other Peers do not work, which is not true. I believe that there would be much merit in having a blend of Bishops: some part-time with diocesan responsibilities and some full-time akin to working Peers. It would be most welcome to have Bishops more fully involved in the life of this House
Unfortunately, under the draft Bill, none of the recommendations of the royal commission is developed. Surely the churches in the other home nations should be represented and the wisdom of the leader of the largest voluntary provider of social services in the country—namely the Salvation Army—would be extremely valuable. Perhaps canon law will still deny this House the insights and immense wisdom of the Archbishop of Westminster but there are very gifted laity in the Catholic Church. What of the black-led denominations whose story often includes having to found their own denominations as many of the established ones were not the most welcoming? To my knowledge there is not a single attendee now, let alone a leader, from within those denominations in your Lordships’ House, and I think that the House is poorer for that.
There are no perfect proposals, but the division of the 12 places on the basis of church attendance within the UK would be a good starting point. On the latest British social attitude surveys that would give us 3.5 Anglicans, 3.5 Catholics and five others. I know that I am expecting a lot from a Bench that believes in miracles.
In looking into the history of this House, it was most encouraging to learn that the 14th century church was rather radical and that women owned land. So in 1306 a writ of summons was sent to abbesses to attend Parliament—but alas, there is no evidence that any of these women attended. Whether by laity or working Bishops, there needs to be a clear timetable outlining and guaranteeing when the Benches of the Lords Spiritual will include a substantial number of women. Places in the nation’s legislature are not on a men-only basis for any organisation.
The public want a House that functions. I would support a fully elected House, with proper recognition of the democratic power of the people and a means to resolve disputes between Chambers. However, I am not convinced that we will ever come up with such a solution. On the options presented to me, I would support a wholly appointed Chamber based on a statutory Appointments Commission, and I would submit myself to reselection if required.
I pray in aid of my conclusion the result of a vote in a House of Lords Chamber event in 2010, when a majority of the 16 to 18 year-olds who had the privilege of debating this issue voted for a fully appointed House. I concur with the comments of many of your Lordships about the loss of wisdom and expertise to this House under the reforms. I cannot express that point better than Ed Gerlach, from Western Sixth Form College, who took part in that Chamber event. He said:
“I agree that we should have appointed Lords. They are from different fields and will know what they are on about from a variety of different backgrounds. People were saying that a lot of them are middle aged people, but they have been around longer and know better what they are on about. They are the people who we should trust. I agree that we should perhaps have a few younger people but you cannot use that as a criticism. They know what they are on about because they have been around the longest. I do not mean that in any disrespectful way”.
And neither, my Lords, do I.