European Convention on Human Rights: Protocol 12

Debate between Baroness Burt of Solihull and Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede

Monday 2nd June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I say to my noble friend that I think the Supreme Court judgment made the situation clearer, not less clear. The nine protected characteristics within the Equality Act are all important in themselves. It is within the Equality Act that gender reassignment is recognised. People who are trans and who have gender recognition certificates have protected characteristics, and it is for the courts to work out in due course how those will manifest themselves.

[Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)]

My Lords, we live in increasingly uncertain and divided times in so many parts of the world. Here in the UK, many people worry that populism, division and discrimination are on the rise. Signing up to Protocol 12 would make a big difference to all who fear discrimination and a reduction of our rights. Why, if the Government believe we are all equal—and I believe that they do—would the Minister not give to all our citizens the reassurance they need by signing up to Protocol 12?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

The noble Baroness will have heard the Answer I gave to the noble Lord, Lord Cashman. I agree that we are living in divided times. The position of the Government is that we do not think signing up to Protocol 12 would change that. We think that existing laws, including the Equality Act and the Supreme Court judgment, are adequate. However, as I have said to both my noble friends who asked the previous questions, we will continue to keep this under review, because I agree with the noble Baroness’s opening point that we are living in divided times and need to be sensitive to that.

Humanist Weddings

Debate between Baroness Burt of Solihull and Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede

Monday 3rd February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. I do not know the answer, but I will write to her, because she raises a very important point. When she asked a similar question a few weeks ago, I made the point that I regularly came across those types of scenarios when I sat as a family court magistrate. I add that the myth of common-law marriage exists not just in particular sectors of our society but across it. It includes the idea that women—it is usually women—get rights, but that is absolutely not the case. That is why the Government are undertaking to look at how the rights of people who have been in long-standing, cohabiting relationships can be addressed when those couples split up.

[Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister referred to various difficulties, but Liberal Democrats and humanists do not see them. I echo the request of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton: can those of us with a special interest in this area meet and put some new ideas forward, to make sure that we can move this along?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

I am very happy to meet the noble Baroness.

Humanist Marriages

Debate between Baroness Burt of Solihull and Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede

Monday 2nd December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, my answer is the same as that given to the previous questions, which is that there are indeed anomalies in weddings law within England and Wales; they cut across many religious and non-religious groups, and we want to look at the question in the round.

[Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)]

My Lords, just to change the angle for a little bit, humanists have a long tradition of conducting same-sex wedding ceremonies, with LGBT people much more likely to be non-religious than the population as a whole. Does the Minister agree that such a change in the law would be significant for same-sex couples?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

The statistic that the noble Baroness cited is accurate from my experience. Yes, such a change would have a disproportionate benefit for same-sex couples, and that factor should be taken into account in the review.

Humanist Weddings

Debate between Baroness Burt of Solihull and Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede

Wednesday 16th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, unfortunately, the timescale is “in due course”. Nevertheless, there is a commitment to look at this and to look at the question in the round. The noble Lord’s question was answered by the noble Lord, Lord Desai: there are other groups that also believe they are special, and they want special recognition—Sharia wives might be one such group. We do not want to legislate by secondary legislation; we do not think that is appropriate in this example. That is why we will take our time and come back with a considered view.

[Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)]

My Lords,

“the Liberal Democrats clearly support this change; the Labour Party supports this change; the Government in Wales support this change; the Government in Scotland support this change; and, as we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Pickles, it is ultimately going to be a political decision, so why are the Government waiting for the Law Commission’s report?”.—[Official Report, 25/04/22; col. 9.]

These are not my words but the words of the Minister himself. I despair, to be honest. The Law Commission has now reported, as he knows. Will he answer now his own question? When will this happen?

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

Unfortunately, the answer is the same as the one I gave to earlier questions: it will be in due course. I understand the strength of feeling on this matter. There are a lot of other issues to be considered within this context, and the Government want to take time to do it properly.