Business of the House

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Wednesday 30th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, there is something in what my noble friend Lord Adonis said about the inadequacies, thanks to—I think— the drawn-out negotiating technique chosen by our Government, which has ended up with an agreement which probably could have been reached many weeks ago and left us this very inadequate way of dealing with an important Bill. In normal times, the Commons having sent us a Bill, we would scrutinise it, test whether it fulfils the roles set for it, and ensure that it is workable and that there is transparency and accountability. But, sadly, that is not what we have the chance to do, partly, as I say, because of the Government’s own delaying in negotiations—whether because they were afraid of the ERG or your Lordships’ House, I leave to others to conclude.

But what it does mean is that the House today does have to take exceptional and extraordinary action. I thank particularly the amazing work of our Constitution Committee, which kindly looked at this and, in particular, at the fast-tracking of it. It agreed and accepted absolutely the case for taking exceptional, extraordinary action, which is necessary in this case basically to make sure that we do not crash out without a deal—nor, indeed, find ourselves with legal uncertainty when there is a gap in law between the end of 31 December and the beginning of 1 January. We do need a statute book that works on Friday morning.

Of course, I particularly regret not being able to get into this Bill. I love all that: negotiations, amendments and groupings. No? Okay, well, I quite enjoy them anyway. What was important, particularly over the internal market Bill, was how much change this House made. We sent back a much-improved Bill, partly because of the hard work, commitment and knowledge of Members of your Lordships’ House. Having looked at the Bill, which I saw only at 12 o’clock yesterday, there really is a lot there that we would be able to get stuck into, with the sort of scrutiny we normally do, if we had the time.

But that is not where we are. We cannot alter the treaty anyway—not a jot or comma of it—because that is agreed by 27 Governments. We should not pretend, therefore, that there is anything we can do, other than stop it in its tracks and have no deal, which I know none of us would want. In fact, for those of us who have looked at it, the Bill takes the deal and drops it into legislation. Given that we cannot alter that deal and have to drop it into legislation, the truth is that even with a Committee stage, a Report stage and a Third Reading, there would be nothing we could do that would alter the treaty. So I think that a degree of realism is perhaps worth bearing in mind.

Of course we are not going to be able to do what we should do, but, as everyone has accepted, the Bill has to get Royal Assent tomorrow. It seems to me that the important thing is that we can carry out the other function that this House is so renowned for—not just detailed legislation but the influencing of public opinion, the Government and the Commons. The most important thing is that we can do that today via the debate, and I therefore hope that we can get on and hear as many of your Lordships, with their views on the treaty, as possible. I think that that is something we can do.

So I think we have to let this business get on. I would like to thank not only the usual channels but all the staff who have enabled us to do this and be here today. Your Lordships do not get holidays, so you are not giving one up, but they are giving up their Christmas holiday to be here and do all the work, and we owe them a great debt of gratitude.

I believe that we have to leave with a deal, and therefore we have to do this Bill today. We therefore will support the government Motion but will not support the amendment to it.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, before I call the Chief Whip to reply, is there any other Member in the Chamber who wishes to contribute to this debate? As there is not, I will call the Chief Whip to reply.

Business of the House

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Thursday 4th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, on 22 May the House of Lords Commission and the Procedure Committee agreed in principle that the House should begin hybrid proceedings from Monday 8 June. This Motion, which was agreed by the Procedure Committee yesterday afternoon, gives effect to that decision.

From Monday, noble Lords will be able to participate in our proceedings both remotely and, to a limited extent, from the Chamber. To allow social distancing, 30 Members will be able to take part from the Chamber at any one time. Only noble Lords participating physically in proceedings will be able to sit in the Chamber, although a small number of Members will also be able to observe from the Gallery on a first come, first seated basis.

In practice there will be few differences from how we have worked over the past few weeks. Noble Lords will still need to sign up in advance to take part in all items of business, including Oral Questions, Statements and the amending stages of Bills. As I mentioned earlier, noble Lords will be able to speak from the Chamber only if they have signed up in advance and their name appears on the speakers’ list. It will be assumed that Members will continue to take part in proceedings remotely unless they indicate otherwise, so, once they have signed up to speak, noble Lords must let the Government Whips’ Office know if they wish to be physically present. It will be for the individual parties and groups to reduce their number of speakers if more Members wish to speak from the Chamber than there are spaces.

The Procedure Committee will issue full guidance later today, and I urge all noble Lords to read it before Monday. The committee will keep the guidance under review as we make the transition and will of course update it if and when necessary.

I stress that, as more Members start returning to the House, it is imperative that our proceedings remain compatible with the public health guidance, particularly in respect of social distancing. This is not just for our benefit but for that of the staff who support us, many of whom will be coming into work from next week to support our move to a hybrid House.

I am pleased to tell the House that good progress is being made in developing our remote voting system. Training will be rolled out to Members next week and there will be full tests of the system. I ask noble Lords to please keep their eyes out for any information relating to remote voting, so we can help ensure that everyone can use the system once it goes live on 15 June.

I put on record my thanks to the Clerk of the Parliaments and the staff of the House for all the work they have done, including through two consecutive recesses, to ensure the House has been able to function as well as it has. It has not been easy at times, but we are all very grateful for their hard work. I also personally thank Victoria Warren, Ben Burgess and Anishaa Aubeeluck in the Government Whips’ Office for their incredible work over the past few weeks. We all owe them a debt of gratitude for helping to ensure our proceedings have run smoothly. I beg to move.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

I start by thanking the noble Baroness for introducing this and ask her to pass on our good wishes for a speedy recovery to her Cabinet colleague, the Business Secretary, whom we just hope does not have the virus. Even the thought of that is testimony to the good sense of the Leader’s Motion and the work behind it, which will enable this House to continue to function with all our Members able to participate, whether or not they are having to shield or isolate for any reason. It is vital for the work of Parliament. As I know the noble Baroness agrees, it really would not be fair to exclude any Peer on the basis that their age, their caring or other responsibilities, their or their family’s disability or other risk factors or the demands of public transport made it difficult or dangerous for them. In fact, maybe we have a lesson for the Commons in this respect.

Of course, the hybrid system cannot match our normal practice. That is one of the many fallouts from the virus, though less serious in its effects than others. In particular, we will miss spontaneous interventions—that might perhaps be a relief to Ministers—which is why, I am afraid, I have a specific plea to make to the Leader of the House.

As it will not be possible to press a Minister who has failed to respond to a point, there is an extra responsibility on every Minister to respond to the points made—something, I am sad to say, we have not always seen of late. Perhaps because there will be no comeback, we have seen some Ministers brush aside questions or concerns in a way that undermines our scrutiny function. Perhaps the noble Baroness could use her good offices to ensure that Ministers always address the points made or, if they really cannot at that moment, follow up with a letter—as indeed some Ministers do. It is a time of national crisis and we have seen information given to journalists, before Parliament and sometimes even straight to camera with no chance for questions. That is not a healthy way to proceed and, vitally at this time, does not make for good decisions. That is why what we do here remains of great importance.

We welcome the Motion and the ability to vote as well as speak remotely. I hope that the spirit of debate, accountability and questioning will be welcomed by the Government and that Ministers will take their responsibility to the House seriously.

Finally, I take this opportunity to thank the staff, and the Peers on the committees mentioned who have been involved in these changes, for all their work in making it possible. It seems they have thought of everything, even remembering to allow a Speaker to take Committee from the Woolsack rather than having to move—I love that level of detail. Careful marshalling is going on outside the Chamber in the walkways and facilities. All that does not happen by accident; it takes planning, but it also takes boots on the ground. I am very conscious that the staff I have seen here this morning—from the cleaning and facilities staff to the clerks and the PPO—have to travel by public transport to come here in order that we can continue to meet. Our thanks are due to them all and to the Government Whips’ Office, as the noble Baroness mentioned. I hope our thanks can be passed on to them all.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, I also thank the Leader of the House for moving the Motion. There are lots of details in it, but I want to make just four general points. First, I join other noble Lords who have spoken in thanking the staff for their work in getting us to this position. Change in your Lordships’ House is not readily embraced as a matter of principle, but over the last couple of months the degree of change has been phenomenal. That has been possible only because a large number of staff have worked extraordinarily hard, not least during the recesses, and I pay tribute to them for that.

I also thank them for their customary good humour in dealing with the frustrations that Members have sometimes felt about the way things have worked, which have sometimes boiled over on to them. It has been very much welcomed by me and everyone else. It has been a stressful time for a lot of people, not least for Members who are at home with the peculiar stresses of not being able to go out and desperately keen to play their normal role in your Lordships’ House.

This brings me to my second point. Having got this hybrid system up and running—which I am sure will be done smoothly—I hope that we retain it until all noble Lords who wish to attend can attend and are no longer subject to advice that, for health reasons, they should remain at home. Obviously, given the age profile of your Lordships’ House, there are more people in that category here than in another place, but it should be a matter of principle that all noble Lords who wish to participate can participate, and that we have a system that enables them to do so, even if, in some cases, they cannot be here for a considerable number of months.

Thirdly, the rules that we are agreeing today are extremely tight and prescriptive. That is inevitable, because we need a system that we can make work from next week. However, I suspect that as we use it—just as has happened a bit with Oral Questions—we can ease some of these restrictions so that we can get back to a position where debate in your Lordships’ House takes place in a relatively flexible manner. The obvious thing about this is the circumstances in which people can make interventions. Obviously, it is not going to be possible to have the normal interventions when you have tens of people watching distantly, but I hope that we can begin to move, in the light of experience, towards a slightly less rigid approach, because that is the essence of debate, and until we do, we will still be suffering some constraints.

Finally, the one outstanding issue which must be resolved is that of allowances, which I realise is an extremely vexed question. The only point I wish to make is that it is unacceptable to me that we should have a system which leads to a position whereby only those with resources, those who are retired and those who live in London can regularly come to your Lordships’ House. I think that this is common ground, but getting back to a system in which people are paid an allowance that allows everybody to participate fully is a top priority. We have agreed in the commission to come forward with revised proposals on allowances. We are beginning those discussions and have said that we will do so by the end of the month. Given that Members are already asking on what basis they will come if they are travelling several hundred miles, I hope that we can get a resolution to that question well before the end of the month, so that we can give a degree of certainty to Peers on what basis they can participate. Having said that, I repeat that I support these proposals, and I thank the staff and all those involved in getting us to this position so speedily.

Business of the House

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Tuesday 19th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

That the topical Question for Short Debate in the name of Lord Cormack set down to be asked on Thursday 21 May be limited to one and a half hours not one hour.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, we are obviously very happy to support the Motion, but perhaps I could raise a related question on the allocation of time. Today in the Commons—I think more or less at this moment—there is an Urgent Question on last week’s negotiations on the UK’s future relationship with the EU. Personally, I think it is bad enough that an Urgent Question had to be requested by the Opposition in the other place, rather than the Government making a full Statement to the Commons after such an important set of talks. That is perhaps a poor comparison with the way the EU works: its negotiator reports to the European Parliament and to the press. However, at least it is happening in the Commons.

I think it has been agreed that we will have repeat of the Answer to that Urgent Question tomorrow in our House, but that provides for only 10 minutes in total—well below the 35 minutes that the Commons will have today. That is insufficient for this House to be able to fulfil its role of scrutinising what the Government are negotiating in these vital talks. That contrasts with what will happen later today, with 20 minutes for Front-Bench questions and 30 minutes for Back-Bench questions quite rightly allocated to a Statement on Covid.

Will the noble Baroness undertake to look at whether that particular Urgent Question repeat tomorrow—not all Urgent Questions—could be given more time because of its significance, or whether, as Leader of the House, she could find another procedure to enable us to look how the talks are progressing? I think I am right in saying, from the Written Statement from Mr Gove, that the Government are to publish some time this week their draft legal texts that they submitted to the European Union. If they were to be accompanied by a Statement so that we could have a debate on them, that might be a way round—or there could be a debate on one of the other EU reports. Could she give some consideration to whether there is a way of dealing with this vital issue?

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness. The Government, through the usual channels, have been extremely generous with time. We now have extra time for Private Notice Questions. As she rightly said, this Motion is about extending further time. I am afraid that we will not be able to look to give extra time tomorrow because we have a full schedule, but, as she well knows, there are discussions through the usual channels about business coming up. I am sure that that issue will be raised. All the parties have party debates. They can choose the topic, so there will be opportunities for parties to raise this topic if they wish. I am sure that there will be discussions in the usual channels. As the noble Baroness said, we have talked about this issue a lot in this House and I am sure that we will continue to do so. We will continue to give it the time that it deserves.

Business of the House

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Thursday 14th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My Lords—

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing this Motion. I was going to say what my noble friend Lord Adonis just said. The broadcasting staff who have been working are unseen as we only get to hear their voices, but I hope that they hear our voices when we thank them as well as all the other parliamentary staff who are doing their usual work, because it has been extraordinary.

I only dipped into the Committee yesterday and I heard the particular point raised by my noble friend. But as far as that Committee went, I felt rather sorry for the Minister. Members seemed to be literally face to face and the Minister had to put up with quite a lot, particularly from the noble and learned Lords. He probably did not feel too comfortable with that. In terms of what is possible, it worked well at that stage, although I take the point that was made. I also thank the Procedure Committee for its decision to extend the time for Private Notice Questions. Because we are not having many Statements at the moment, they have become really quite important, and that extra time is welcome.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I apologise to the noble Baroness for stepping up too soon—obviously I am not used to dealing with people any more either. I echo the thanks of both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord to the broadcasting team and indeed all the staff across the House. I have in fact been over to see their operation—at a safe distance—and thank them on behalf of us all. They are doing a fantastic job and we all greatly appreciate it.

On the noble Lord’s question, I am afraid that I cannot give a specific date on Virtual Proceedings. We have a commission meeting at the end of next week, which I think will finalise the details so that things can move forward. It will take a little bit of time after that for the House authorities to set up the screens and so on. I assure the noble Lord that we are all very keen to move to a hybrid House, not least for some of the issues that he raised. We will do it as soon as we can after Whitsun, but I do not want to put undue pressure on the authorities by giving him a date now—I cannot. After that commission meeting, I am sure that we will provide further information to Members; we will of course keep everyone updated.

The noble Lord is absolutely right: as I said, remote voting is being developed. The party leaders and usual channels have had a practice and a look through the House of Commons system, which seems pretty simple to me. I cannot speak for our colleagues down the other end. I am sure that your Lordships will master the technology very well. It is, I believe, a good system, and work is ongoing to build that. Again, we are doing it at pace because, as he rightly says, we will have votes coming up and we need to make sure that your Lordships’ House is in a position to register its views on issues. As a Government we obviously want to move forward with our legislative agenda, so it is in all our interests. I assure him that work is ongoing and we are again looking to bring it in as soon as is practicable after the Whitsun Recess. We will keep Members updated with timings when I can be specific.

Covid-19 Committee

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Thursday 14th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, in its first report of this Session, the Liaison Committee recommended that a new Select Committee be set up to look at the long-term implications of Covid-19. This Motion is the first part of the process to make that happen. I beg to move.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

I think that only two of us who are in the Chamber at the moment were on the Liaison Committee that agreed this proposal. Clearly, we welcome it; it went through very fast. It plays absolutely to the strengths of this House, which is why we thought it appropriate that we do it. Given the particular expertise in this House, whether on the part of those who have international experience or of those with experience in health or the Civil Service, it plays to all the strengths that we have. It was for that reason that we mentioned that we should look internationally—we were thinking about some of the international agencies that could or could not have been better involved—but also cross-department. We are very conscious that the House of Commons will look at specific angles; the idea was not to cover that but to look across government.

Certainly, from our side, but I think also from everyone on the Liaison Committee, we wish this committee well.

Motion agreed.

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 13th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trefgarne]

I am not aware of the interest that the noble Lord wishes me to declare, but I have been here a long time. That said, the problem which the Bill addresses relates to the number of Members in the House, which the noble Lord, Lord Burns, has been working on. On a single day back in 1999, 700 hereditary Peers had to leave the House. Since then, their numbers have remained firmly fixed. Meanwhile, the number of life Peers has significantly increased.

Be that as it may, the essence of the case against this Bill relates to the undertaking given by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, then the Lord Chancellor, who gave a clear undertaking that the position of the 92 hereditary Peers provided for in the 1999 Act would remain untouched until, in his words, House of Lords reform was complete. No time limit was given to that undertaking. In 2012, as we have already heard, the coalition Government introduced in the other place a comprehensive House of Lords reform Bill creating a mostly elected House of Lords, which sadly never emerged. I would not have opposed that Bill in principle, although there were a few questions relating, for example, to the number of Bishops who ought to remain.

I have referred to the present number of life Peers. I would not in principle oppose legislation as described by my noble friend Lord Strathclyde, to provide for a statutory independent committee to select new life Peers rather than leaving it in the hands of the Prime Minister as at present. I could of course be persuaded that the hereditary Peers should then leave. In the meantime, I believe that the present arrangement should remain in place and I therefore hope that this Bill will not reach the statute book.

On one detailed point, the Bill as now proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, does not include provision for the two statutory hereditary Peers, namely the Lord Great Chamberlain and the Earl Marshal, to which he has previously agreed, as I recall. I hope that that can be corrected if the Bill is to proceed.

I remain opposed to piecemeal reform and therefore to this Bill. I hope that comprehensive reform can come to the House in due course, which I shall not oppose. In the meantime, let us leave the hereditary Peers as they are.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

Before the timer starts on the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, could we clarify what the Companion says about an interest? My understanding is that, if a child, cousin, niece or nephew of mine were to benefit from a Bill, I would be obliged to declare an interest. I assume, therefore, that anyone whose relative—whether second cousin or third nephew—would benefit from this Bill should declare that as an interest.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, for the third time it is my pleasure to give a warm welcome to the measure. Like the noble Lord, Lord Young, I have sat through all the previous ones. Indeed, the last time I spoke in your Lordships’ House on an earlier version was almost exactly a year ago today. It was on 15 March last year on a Bill that had had its Second Reading 18 months earlier, in September 2017. As we have heard, there was some serious foot dragging then on a Bill with just two clauses. What progress has there been since? As we have heard, there have been more by-elections—bringing the number to 37 over 21 years and our democracy in this House, I believe, into disrepute.

As we have heard, the system has brought in yet more white, male hereditary Peers at a time when we need, first, to reduce the size of the House—as we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Burns, and others—and, secondly, to increase its diversity in gender, ethnicity and background. I use the word “background” but my noble friend Lord Snape said it as it is and called it “class”. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, described the current system as racist and sexist. I am sorry to be only woman to speak today in favour of the Bill, but I know that if there is a vote my sisters will be with me.

Mention has been made of HOLAC’s role. I point out that it has no role in scrutinising the hereditaries who come to this House. Indeed, its role at the moment of carefully sifting the possible list—shall we say?—of additions here shows what a good job it is doing.

About a decade ago, there was a survey of the then Members. At that stage, 70% of them thought that the by-elections should end. It is clear from last year that the percentage would be much higher today. Even in this debate, which is perhaps atypical of people outside, only eight hereditaries and five life Peers spoke against the Bill. I think a vote would show much more overwhelming support for the Grocott measure.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, to emphasise a point just made by the noble Baroness, some of us have not spoken because we feel that we have repeated ourselves so many times that it would be pointless to do so. There does not mean that if there were a vote, we would not be vociferous.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

Then we shall use the “et al” for those of us on our side. I thank the noble Lord for that.

It is bad enough that we outnumber the democratically elected House, but to do so with 90 of our Members being here by virtue of their grandfathers or great-grandfathers—or, in some cases, going even further back—is surely a source of shame to a 21st-century legislature.

I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord True, is not responding on the Bill—I think he is the follow-on act—because he was honest enough to admit that much of the resistance to previous attempts was to further the Conservative interest. The figures bear that out, with 10 times as many Conservative as Labour Peers embroiled in this insular scheme.

I should have thought that, with a majority of 80 in the other place, the Government could have grasped the nettle safe in the knowledge that its working majority could not be threatened by any pesky Lords. Indeed, despite the almost completely—but not quite—persuasive words of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, who welcomed this Private Member’s Bill because it was us doing it ourselves, nevertheless, I come down on the same side as the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde: this should be a government Bill. That is perhaps for different reasons, but we both arrive there. In the light of the duty on all public bodies—that must include the Government—to promote equality, the Government should have seized on this issue and enabled the House to enter the 20th, let alone the 21st, century by getting rid of a very discriminatory part of our constitution.

It is a modest measure and would make change only very slowly, as the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, made clear. It would not lead to a wholly appointed House; it would take some 40 years for us to get there, despite what the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, alleged. It may be two or three years before there was any change at all if the Bill was passed. It would not affect any of our existing Members, whom we look forward to hearing from, I hope, for many, many years. Indeed, many, perhaps all of them, deserve to be here in their own right, on their own accomplishments, as will be demonstrated by a shining example, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, shortly. However, I take issue with the noble Lord, Lord Lilley, who I think suggested that there are hereditaries who, if not born to rule in this place, were bred to it. I find that an extraordinary idea.

The purpose of our House is to make laws. It is to act as a check and a challenge to the Government and to provide a forum of independent expertise. The credibility of the House and what we do is undermined by how membership can be achieved through a very strange system of by-elections, producing a self-perpetuating selection of new Members, chosen by a tiny electorate from a tiny grouping. Let us move on this. Let us waste no more time.

Data Science: Government Processes

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Tuesday 4th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My noble friend raises some important points of principle, which I think can be addressed other than by issuing a compulsory ID card. We are working hard to ensure that data held on individuals is easily accessible by them and that, more widely, individuals can more easily navigate government websites and be assured that their personal data is not being compromised.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, we welcome the Tory manifesto saying, as we just heard, “We will improve the use of data and evidence in the process of government.” Can the Minister explain how the biggest IT project affecting the public, universal credit, was launched despite all the evidence from my noble friends Lady Drake and Lady Sherlock and our late colleague Baroness Hollis that this would not work because of its timescale and complexity? That was done against the evidence. As we have heard and will discuss further, UC is further delayed until 2024. What comfort can the Minister give that the Government can be trusted with our personal data to set up a system that will work for those most vulnerable in society?

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Report stage & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 21st January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, some of the speeches have painted on a large canvas. I would like to focus on the amendment itself. I am reminded of a discussion here yesterday about the possibility—perhaps fatuous—of moving this Chamber to York in the name of reaching out to the population of this country. I mention that because, 20 years ago, in the name of reaching out to the country at large, the devolved Administrations came into being. The 20 years in between have offered enough evidence of the fact that you do not just bring things into being; you support and sustain them by developing a relationship that enhances partnership between the devolved bodies and the United Kingdom Parliament. I wish that people on other Benches would realise just how disappointed people in the devolved areas are about what has happened over the last 20 years and the way in which—begrudgingly, as it seems to them—some concessions and developments have come into being. I just wish people could feel that.

I have three children. When they were growing up, as teenagers, the most important aspect of parenthood that we had to learn was the moment when you establish trust. You move away from authoritarian modes of existence with your own children, and you trust them, even when sometimes they make mistakes. It seems to me that, in this amendment, we are asking simply to give visibility to a stance that we could describe as trust; that is the heart of it. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, said, it does not seek to change the provisions of the Bill; it just says that we should trust each other as we go along.

I would be surprised if I am the only one who has had to educate myself, because the new clause proposed by the amendment would, if accepted, go in after clauses that describe the UK-EU joint committee, and it is terribly confusing to talk about the Joint Ministerial Committee in the context of movements that bring that joint UK-EU committee into being. It does not end there, because we are talking about the Joint Ministerial Committee European Union sub-committee. The action we are trying to establish good relations for is what will happen in the discussions with Europe to bring about our ongoing relationship, in the period following the enactment of the Bill. We should therefore remember that we are looking to have these things written into the Bill to apply for a limited period.

My noble friend Lord Howarth is quite right: of course you cannot legislate for the processes of consultation. He went on to say that willingness cannot be legislated for, but unwillingness might necessitate legislation—and there has been unwillingness. There is a lack of empathy. Even the noble Lord opposite spoke about hardness and refusing to accept a position that will create difficulties. That is never in anyone’s mind at all.

I go back to discussions in Committee and the intervention made by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, who said:

“The best option would be to include representatives of the devolved Administrations in the negotiating teams that go to Brussels when the subject for discussion is going to touch on the competence of the devolved Administrations.”—[Official Report, 15/1/20; col. 672.]


If they are going to discuss the competence of the devolved Administrations, is it not fair and proper that those from the devolved Administrations most affected might be there to add their voice to the discussions? Is that not reasonable? Are we not talking about common sense?

We are looking at this in a binary way, thinking that everybody who has a different view is somehow invested with animosity towards the Government. We are talking about bringing out of all this something that stands up and appeals to people on the basis of common decency and fair play. I am happy to rest my case there.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, we strongly support Amendment 17, without which the whole nation of Wales could be excluded from preparing for input into the UK-EU negotiations. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, said, and as the letter of 16 January from the noble Lord, Lord Duncan, to your Lordships sets out—I hope people have now got it—the Government have promised that representatives of the Northern Ireland Executive will be invited to be part of the UK delegation and to take part in any meetings of the joint committee discussing Northern Ireland where the Irish Government are involved.

That guarantee is welcome; I do not undermine that at all. But where is the equivalent recognition that, where the specific issues of other constituent parts of the UK are discussed, they too can be at the table, or at the very least be assured that the JMC on EU Negotiations has been briefed and will feed into Her Majesty’s Government’s negotiating position with the EU? The Government are seen as giving scant regard to the devolved authorities’ interests and legitimate role in the negotiation, which is why a statutory role is needed. As my noble and learned friend Lord Morris of Aberavon said, the voluntary way has not worked sufficiently well.

Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament: Special Report

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

Monday 4th November 2019 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

Understandably, the committee has access to highly sensitive information that allows it to carry out its oversight duties. The reports it produces often contain information that, were it to be released, might damage the ability of those the ISC oversees to discharge their functions. That is why the governing Act allows for a period of time for the Prime Minister to consider the report carefully. That is what is happening at the moment.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, what has the Prime Minister got to hide?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I regret the implication in that question: the noble Baroness is implying that the Prime Minister does have something to hide, and I repudiate that suggestion in emphatic terms. The normal processes are being exercised and the report will be published in due course.

Early Parliamentary General Election Bill

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 30th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, this is an unusual procedure for a Bill. A whole Bill, with far bigger consequences than the Benn Bill—which required only the sending of a letter—is to be taken in one day, at one sitting. And it has been done without a murmur from those—I am looking not just at the noble Lord, Lord True—who found the Benn Bill’s passage so very outrageous. By comparison, the Fixed-term Parliaments Act had one day at Second Reading, three days in Committee, two days on Report and a tiny 10-minute day at Third Reading: 29 hours in all.

Today’s Bill was conceived by the Liberal Democrats and then taken over by the Conservatives—the two parties that pushed through the very Fixed-term Parliaments Act that the Bill now upends for what they see as their own electoral advantages. The Act that they wanted, to prevent a Prime Minister calling an election whenever he or she felt like it, is to be cast aside so that this Prime Minister can call an election at a time of his choosing. Indeed, the Lib Dem Minister who took that Act through this House, resisted attempts to include a sunset clause, which, ironically, would have saved Mr Johnson a lot of trouble, as he could then simply have called the election whenever he wanted. That Minister also ignored the sage advice of our Constitution Committee, which, while unpersuaded of the need to overturn,

“an established constitutional practice and moving to fixed-term Parliaments”,

thought that there should be,

“some form of safety valve”,

to allow an early election.

I had hoped that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, might have spoken today to explain his volte face, because this Bill drives a coach and horses through the Fixed-term Parliaments Act, bypassing both the required supermajority as well as the unpleasantness of a no-confidence vote—“a political device”, in the words of noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, or “cavalier”, according to my noble friend Lady Quin.

Essentially, in 48 hours, between the two Houses, the Bill repeals the Act, with no forethought, debate or any of the consideration we would normally give to a major legislative and constitutional change. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, urged, we should undertake such a task in a proper and thoughtful way.

However, I guess this unconventional route is only one of the Liberal Democrats’ embarrassments, given that they have, in the words of an arch remainer, “thrown the referendum campaign under a bus”, having triggered the Bill before trying to add a referendum to the withdrawal agreement Bill. Indeed, they have promised that they will use any influence they have after the election to revoke without a second referendum. Those who slogged so long for a referendum must rue the day that they trusted the Liberal Democrats.

But that is not all. We and the Liberal Democrats had prioritised removing any chance of a no-deal exit from the EU. They have now handed this possibility to the Prime Minister. He may not get the WAB through Parliament before 31 January, given that we will now lose six weeks of legislative time with the election, swearing in, the Queen’s Speech and its debate—and I look forward to the answer from the noble Earl when he replies to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, about the earliest date of our return. We now risk a crash-out at the end of January or at the end of next year, if the Prime Minister takes us out at the end of the transition period without an agreement. Well done, Liberal Democrats; I bet a glass is being raised to you in No. 10. As it happens, we are confident that there will be no such outcome, that it is Labour who will have the keys to No. 10, and we will put an end to a no-deal exit.

As for the Government—in case noble Lords thought that this was all about the Liberal Democrats—we know why they want an election. National debt is rising; the true figures of their preferred deal are appearing—£70 billion over 10 years, we hear today from the National Institute of Economic and Social Research; a winter NHS crisis beckons; schools are still on short measures in some places; Northern Ireland has been sold short, and Johnson rumbled on that; and, vitally, the impact of a hard Brexit has yet to be felt, or even the arguments over it, as the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, said.

So the Conservatives, for electoral advantage, which the Fixed-term Parliaments Act was meant to prevent, want an election while the fruits of their ham-fisted policies have yet to bite. I urge them not to be complacent. The public might just see through them and grasp why they are being sent out to polling stations in the run-up to Christmas. It is not really to “unclog” Parliament, the Commons having given the withdrawal agreement Bill a Second Reading. As my noble friend Lady Smith said, had there been a decent programme Motion, which needed only for the Prime Minister to swallow his pride over the totem 31 October date, he could have got the withdrawal agreement Bill through well before 31 January, and negotiations on our future relations with the EU could have begun.

Of course, the Government might feel complacent because they know that they may not be playing absolutely fair. Having an election before we have sorted out the regulation of targeted digital campaigning will probably play into the hands of a certain Dominic Cummings. I am not saying that it is the dark arts, but I know that it is neither transparent nor regulated, as my noble friend Lord Puttnam made abundantly clear. When he responds, the Minister needs to spell out what steps the Government and the Electoral Commission will take to ensure a fair and open contest.

For Labour, we look forward to being able to take our challenge to the Government to every street, village, town and city of the country. We will show what damage the Government are risking—to the car industry, to farming, to the environment, to consumers and to our vibrant service sector—with their approach to Brexit. We will highlight the impact that their policies have already had on the poor and disadvantaged, on those living with debt and insecurity, on those dependent on social services, on working families torn between jobs and paying for childcare, on students graduating with massive debt, on young couples no longer even able to dream of owning their own house, on people on zero-hours contracts, on the elderly finding it hard to see a GP or dentist any time soon, and on teachers and nurses who, at the end of the month, cannot find the money for any luxuries after years of pay restraint.

It will become clear over these coming weeks that the Prime Minister is not a man who can be trusted. He owes no loyalty even to his own MPs, let alone to society. He is a man with only one person’s future at heart, and that is his own.

I confess that I never wanted a winter election —I hate cold dark mornings and early sunsets—but I want the chance to rid this country of this Government. So here’s to this Bill—and the election that it now brings.