Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Lord Kamall

Committee stage
Friday 16th January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

While that is absolutely a legitimate thing to discuss, and I would always defer to doctors on that, it makes no difference to this part of the argument of whether we call it dying. The noble Lord may well want to raise the question of whether we can ever be sure that someone is dying, although I have to say that I cannot be the only one who has been with someone where it is jolly clear that they are not going to live till the end of the week. There are times when you absolutely know that someone is going to die. While he may well be right that there are other cases, that is not the issue of this word. This word in the Bill is to give to the public the understanding that we are talking about whether there is a way of helping either the final timing or the way of those final days. We are not talking about someone who just decides to commit suicide for some other reason; we are talking about people who are dying from some sort of terminal illness.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I remind the Committee that I am one of those who are still balancing the arguments on the overall Bill, and where I get put off some arguments is when people heckle those who are trying to make a point. I do not think it helps their cause. On the other side of the argument—I am trying not to sound as if I spend my life sitting on the fence—those who speak much longer than they need to in making a point also make it difficult to support some of the points that are being made. On future Committee days, I would like to see a bit more mutual respect between the different sides of the debate, with shorter points made but also less heckling of those who want to make a point. It is important, if we are going to say that we are doing our job in scrutinising the Bill, that everyone who wants to make a valid point, relevant to the amendments, is allowed to make it.

I thank my noble friend Lord Frost for tabling the amendments in this group. I recall that at Second Reading my noble friend Lord Moylan spoke about the importance of language. Language is important, especially clarity of language, so I understand my noble friend’s intentions in tabling these amendments. One could argue that there is a distinction to be made between the terms “assisted dying” and “assisted suicide”. “Assisted dying” on its own, before you even consider the Bill, does not necessarily mean consent on the part of the person whose life is being ended. The Bill introduces that element of consent, but “assisted dying” on its own does not mean consent, whereas it could be argued that the term “assisted suicide” conveys some form of intent—that it is a person seeking to end their own life, they want to do so and are not being assisted to die, regardless of whether or not they want to die. That may seem to be a philosophical point, but it is important that there is a distinction between assisted dying and assisted suicide. As the Official Opposition, we have no collective view, but it is a legitimate challenge by my noble friend to the language of the Bill, seeking clarity or, as the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, said, transparency.

Noble Lords have argued that people in this country should be able to access the services that people can access from Dignitas in Switzerland. However, Dignitas is described as offering physician-assisted suicide. Looking at the Dignitas website—not because I have lost the will to live after trying to get through a day of debates, but to look at the language—I see that it uses the phrase:

“Legal assistance for suicide with DIGNITAS”.


So we have to ask ourselves: if we are trying to be consistent with Dignitas, why is it okay for Dignitas to use the language of “suicide” but, when people want that same service in this country, we cannot use that language?

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

That is exactly because it will take people who are not dying. This is not what this Bill does.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

That is a fair point to be made. It is why the question was asked, and I thank the noble Baroness for answering it.

I thank my noble friend Lord Frost for provoking this debate, because there are still other arguments for using the phrase “assisted suicide”, particularly in terms of clarity. I look forward to the consideration of the arguments made by my noble friend Lord Frost from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, and the Minister.

Mental Health Services for Rough Sleepers

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Lord Kamall

Monday 21st March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her Question and for her continued conversations with me on a number of different health-related issues; I am learning quite a lot from those. I understand that the data will be collected at some point, and I hope that that will be done regularly. If the noble Baroness will allow me, I write to her with more details, but I know that the top-level answer to that question is that we are about to get the data.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, about two-thirds of people who are homeless cite alcohol misuse as one of the reasons that first made them homeless, and for about one in 10 people who die homeless, alcohol is the main cause of death. Can the Minister assure us that all this work will include a proper alcohol treatment programme, so that the underlying problems are dealt with in addition to the other mental health problems?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes the very important point that a number of people who are homeless suffer from alcoholism and alcohol abuse—and indeed drug abuse. For some of these people, the issues they are suffering from are often interrelated. Therefore, in the joined-up thinking we are looking at, charities, civil society organisations and the NHS are making sure that we treat the various symptoms in an integrated way.

Covid-19: UK Arrivals

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Lord Kamall

Tuesday 16th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

As the Minister has said, our universities have long been a welcoming and inspiring academic hub for international students but stories such as the ones that we have heard—along with, I am afraid, the attack on freedom of speech at the LSE and the shameful treatment of Professor Stock, which we will come to shortly—added to Covid and online teaching, to say nothing of the Brexit fallout, which means that EU schools can no longer use group passports, all question our ability to attract youngsters from across the globe. What are the Government doing to re-establish our reputation in this sector?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes an important point about us being a global hub and welcoming the whole world. For centuries the UK has been open to a number of different nationalities from across the world. Indeed, my own family came to the UK in the Windrush generation. I have always been clear that we should be a global Britain, not just focused on one small part of the world.

I want to take the opportunity to answer the question that I forgot to answer about international students. Anyone in England is eligible for the vaccine if they fall within the current eligibility criteria, and international students are encouraged to register with a GP.

On free speech, it is critical that our universities remain places where you can have free expression without fear. The essence of free speech is being able to tolerate views that you may not agree with but it is important that they are expressed. Universities should remain hubs of free speech.

Alcohol Duties

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Lord Kamall

Tuesday 2nd November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

Many public health officials, for many years, have criticised the system of alcohol taxation, particularly the EU’s system of taxation. Now that we have left the EU, we are free to set our own law in this area. Given the criticisms from the World Health Organization and many other think tanks, we can now set taxation based on the volume of alcohol.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome that the duty will be related to the strength of alcohol. However, the Budget included a dozen references to wine, just as the Government were boasting that the biggest benefit of the New Zealand trade deal was cheaper New Zealand wine. This duty freeze, as we have heard, will cost £3 billion to the Exchequer over five years—money that could have been used for treatment services and for public health, since we know that deaths and illnesses will go up. It seems to me that the Government have an alcohol problem. They are scared to increase prices for the sake of all our health and are uncaring about the problems that this measure brings in its wake. Can this Health Minister go to his colleagues in the Treasury and try to educate them as to what they should be doing?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Baroness is being a little unfair in her comments. These reforms were based on the advice of many public health officials, including the World Health Organization as well as a number of think tanks, which said that it was about time that we linked taxation to the volume of alcohol in drinks in the hope that we can encourage and incentivise manufacturers to lower alcohol content and to produce more low-alcohol and alcohol-free drinks. I am not sure whether noble Lords would accept such reformulated drinks, but it is important that we push this from a public health perspective.