Employment Gap for Blind and Sight-impaired People

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Wednesday 17th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that question and agree that it is not political. I know that his approach to this is not. I am grateful for how he approaches these issues. There are different views on the statistics. We can have a conversation elsewhere. A lot depends on how the definitions are made but, either way, the disability employment gap is far too big and needs tackling. As the noble Lord will know only too well, things got worse during the pandemic and have not really recovered.

This Government have made a real commitment to engaging, investing significant additional sums of money in supporting people with a range of disabilities and health conditions, including blind or visually impaired people, back to work; lots more tailored support; investment in supported employment programmes; and making sure that there are specialist disability employment advisers and coaches who understand how they can help people. We are also working with employers. I can talk more about that if it is helpful.

I am not in a position to announce a taskforce today, but we have announced the Independent Disability Advisory Panel. The membership will be announced shortly. The Government are taking very seriously the need to listen to the voices of disabled people, including blind and visually impaired people, as well as talking to the organisations that support them. I would welcome having further conversations with the noble Lord about how we can get this right.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister acknowledges the sight-loss employment gap. How many full-time equivalent disability employment advisers are employed by the DWP—and do all DEAs have specific sight-loss training? Do access to work assessors and jobcentre staff have sight-loss training and, if they do not, will the Government seek to remedy this?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I am not sure we have any published statistics, but my best understanding at the moment is that there are more than 800 disability employment advisers and DEA leaders. The Government’s aim and commitment is that every work coach will have access to a specialist disability employment adviser. The DWP provides particular learning for those who come into that DEA role, and that includes specific content relating to blindness and visual impairment. It is intended to give awareness of the challenges that people with sight loss who come to us may face, highlights the support we can offer, and explains what the DWP’s responsibilities are. As an organisation, we are looking specifically to improve that. The Government have recognised that we need to be investing more. We are going to put more money in over the rest of this decade, investing more money in hiring, improving the quality and the quantity of support providing help to disabled customers. We aim for it to be tailored to each individual circumstance, and that is what we ought to do. The answer is yes, we are investing in training as well as in having people on the ground who can help.

Dyscalculia

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Monday 17th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, a number of people in my family have a whole variety of learning difficulties and have been successful despite that. There is a huge difference in being able to name the difficulty. Children who are not doing well find another single word if they do not get a diagnosis, usually “stupid” or “lazy”. To have a proper diagnosis makes a significant difference.

[Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)]

I partly accept the noble Baroness’s point, but there is a problem with suggesting that it is not possible for students who have problems with maths to get support unless they have had a diagnosis and have a single name for the issues that are causing challenges. Sometimes it is precisely the waiting for the assessment, rather than the action on the difficulties the child had, that causes the problems in our special educational needs and disabilities system. We need to identify where children have problems with learning and take action immediately, not wait for diagnoses.

Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 21st October 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, as we have heard, this group relates to the measures in the Bill which would give the DWP the ability to require banks and other financial institutions to trawl all accounts that they hold to identify and provide information on accounts that have received certain benefits and which meet certain criteria as defined by DWP, all without any suspicion of wrongdoing. This is done by means of an eligibility verification notice, which can require periodic reporting—the noble Baroness did not mention this when she described it. For example, it could be daily, although there has been no clarity from the department or the Minister yet as to the periods that are intended. I should reiterate at this point: this is a much better Bill, and the safeguards are much greater than the last time we saw these clauses, but there is more to go.

I would like to make one other little correction to the noble Baroness on her example of universal credit. Her example was that the eligibility criterion that would be provided by DWP to the banks would be £16,000, because that is the limit. In fact, it could be a much lower number, because under the Bill:

“The eligibility indicators may be criteria to be met by a single account or by”


a number of “accounts combined”. For the universal credit example it might be £10,000 or £8,000, or something of that nature. In that situation, it is even more likely that eligibility indicators would be flagged for innocent people, but that is just a wrinkle within the Bill.

I think many of us are nervous about the introduction of what is effectively the suspicionless trawling of benefit recipients’ accounts, even with the safeguards that are there. However, I understand and have an awful lot of sympathy for the need to reduce fraud and error, and the need for the department to have the tools to do that. Amendment 45A, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and others, would—as I think we are about to hear—remove the provision altogether. My approach in this group and the next has been to seek to strengthen the safeguards that surround the use of the powers rather than to remove them altogether.

To that end, I have tabled one amendment in this group, Amendment 49, which the noble Baroness has already alluded to. I am grateful to both the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, for their support. It is very simple: it requires that the Secretary of State may issue an eligibility verification notice only if satisfied that it is necessary and proportionate to do so for the purposes set out in the Bill. It was quite surprising that this basic safeguard was not already in the Bill, because the same wording already appears in relation to all the other powers it creates. I had assumed that this was a drafting error or oversight, as I cannot imagine any reason why it should not be there in relation to these powers.

I am very pleased to say that, since I tabled Amendment 49, the Minister has tabled Amendment 48, which she has mentioned. That amendment does much the same thing, although it does not restrict the necessity and proportionality to the purposes of the Bill. That is regrettable, but I can live with the Minister’s version and I am grateful to her for doing this following the constructive discussions we have had on a range of issues throughout the process, for which we are very grateful.

The Minister’s other amendments also introduce small but useful tweaks to the safeguards, although I am not sure I would go as far as she does on their effect. With thanks to the Minister for her engagement, I will not move Amendment 49, but I should be clear that I do not believe that Amendment 48 and the others she has tabled remove the need for the changes we will discuss in the next group. We will have those discussions then, and I will obviously reflect on what she has said in the meantime.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I will be very brief. The noble Lord, Lord Vaux, has amendments in this and other groups, several of which I have signed, to try to ameliorate or provide safeguards for some of the most intrusive elements of the current draft of the Bill. I also have great sympathy with the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, around the issue of transparency, which is very evidently absent from most of the Bill. I will support those individuals if they press their amendments.

My Amendments 45A, 65 and 74A, in contrast to those of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, and the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, are not nuanced. They would simply remove Clauses 75 and 76 and Schedule 3, in effect eliminating the requirement for banks to look into claimants’ bank accounts. They would destroy the principle that the Bill establishes: that a group of people, defined by the common characteristic that they are in receipt of benefits, should have a more limited right to privacy and data protection than the rest of the community.

I am also very concerned when banks become investigative agents of the state. I regard these as lines we simply should not cross. I know that the Minister does not share that view and is very content that those in receipt of benefits should be under a level of surveillance that is considered inappropriate for the rest of the community. To her credit, she has limited some of the most abusive features of the Bill that we received from the Commons, but she still asserts the underlying principle.

I also realise that this is very much a paving Bill for the intrusions that will follow the introduction of the digital ID. That scheme provides the tools that enable the state to carve out for surveillance any variety of groups of people whom it deems unworthy of sharing the general rights accorded under the law. I have tabled what are killer amendments, in effect, because the public need to know what exactly is at stake and what line has been crossed. I will not press my amendments, but I am also determined that the issues will not be quietly tidied away.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, I will say a few words about Amendment 60. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, for her support.

My concern is about justice. People on the receiving end of DWP penalties and accusations of fraud will predominantly be old, sick, disabled and the poor. Most would not be able to afford legal advice or qualify for legal aid, which is scarce in any case. DWP actions and penalties could arise because people have made errors in completing very long and complex forms. For example, the pension credit form is 24 pages long and has 243 questions on it. Errors can be made in completing the forms and interpreting the questions on them, and in the DWP’s assessment of the answers given to those questions.

There is a high probability that some people may eventually be unjustly accused of committing fraud and face the removal of money from their bank accounts without their express approval. It will be the might of the state on one hand and a poor person who does not have any legal advice on the other. We know from the Post Office scandal that innocent individuals can be pressurised into admitting fraud that they did not commit and into handing over money that they did not steal or do not owe. There is enormous scope for injustice in the Bill.

The 2023 High Court case of R v Secretary of State for Work and Pensions related to a single mother of two disabled adults who was receiving universal credit and was overpaid by £8,623, entirely due to the fault of the DWP. The DWP sought to recover the money. The High Court’s judgment said that, under certain circumstances, benefit claimants may be able to argue that recovering the debt would be an unlawful breach of their legitimate expectation and the debt need not actually be paid. Would many claimants who are accused of committing fraud or receiving overpayments be aware of these things?

Steve Webb, the former Pensions Minister, said:

“It can be difficult for people to understand whether the demands they are being sent for overpayments are a mistake, as benefits such as tax credits and pension credit are so complex”.


Without legal advice, these people become even more vulnerable.

Last year, a lot of press coverage was given to the plight of a 75 year-old pensioner who was chased by the DWP for pension credit fraud, adding up to £22,000. The Sun newspaper took up the case, and eventually the investigation showed that there was no fraud—it was all due to errors by the DWP. This case, obviously, is not unique; there are many others that do not get the publicity. I cannot help wondering how many people over the years have been pressurised into admitting guilt when they are not guilty. How many more will admit guilt when they are simply pressed into it?

Last year, data secured by Big Brother Watch showed that more than 200,000 people wrongly faced investigation for housing benefit fraud and error after the performance of the Government’s algorithm fell far short of expectations. Earlier this year, 30 charities wrote to the Government, pointing out the dangers of this legislation and previous legislation, and they identified 686,756 new official error overpayments on universal credit.

Eventually, at some point, people who are accused need some advice. Amendment 60 suggests that the Government ought to provide legal advice to people who may well qualify for it. On 9 October this year, the Government announced that all victims of the Post Office Horizon IT scandal who are claiming compensation will be entitled to free legal advice. Why wait until people suffer? Why not offer this advice up front to save anguish to millions of people? That is what a civilised society would do.

I am sure the Minister will not support this and will possibly refer to the cost associated with it, but the cost of injustice is even higher. I hope that the Minister will be able to offer some help with this.

Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 21st October 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall speak to government Amendments 89, 91, 101 and 102; I start with Amendments 89 and 91. I tabled these amendments because it has been clear that, despite all my attempts to reassure noble Lords at earlier stages, concerns continue to be raised as though DWP’s new recovery powers could be applied to debtors who are in receipt of benefits. Indeed, I think that may be the concern of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, as the explanatory statement on her Amendment 92 in this group relates to the use of these powers on benefit claimants. To be clear, this is not the case.

The DWP’s new debt recovery measures can be applied only to debtors who are no longer receiving DWP benefits and where we cannot recover from PAYE. However, to further reassure noble Lords and everybody else, we are making it even clearer in the legislation, through new Section 80AA, that the new powers cannot be applied to those receiving benefits from my department. This provides further clarification that a direct deduction order or immediate disqualification from driving order must always be suspended or revoked if the debtor subsequently receives a benefit payment from the DWP while that order is ongoing. I hope that provides further assurance to the House.

Amendment 101 is a procedural amendment regarding the technical mechanisms for DWP to make applications to the court for disqualification orders. The Bill already allows DWP to make an application to the magistrates’ court for a suspended or immediate DWP disqualification order. The purpose of this amendment is to introduce a regulation-making power enabling DWP to set out at a later stage any practical steps necessary for those applications to be made and considered. This engages commonplace procedure rules, dealing with practical matters to ensure cases are progressed fairly and efficiently for all parties involved, such as the type of form used or how notices and orders are served on parties.

Amendment 102 is a technical amendment which ensures that the term “processing” is correctly understood in new Section 80D, which establishes the DWP debt code of practice. It is a small change to provide clarity by linking the term “processing” to the definition already set out in Section 3(4) of the Data Protection Act 2018. This helps avoid any ambiguity in interpretation and ensures consistency with existing data protection legislation.

None of these government amendments changes the existing policy intent for how the powers will be used or the safeguards that are set out in the Bill. These will continue to be powers of last resort, to be used only after DWP has made all reasonable attempts to negotiate an affordable and sustainable repayment plan. These amendments support the policy intent and delivery of the Bill, and I urge noble Lords to accept them. I beg to move.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I will be very brief. I laid Amendment 92 in the same spirit as the amendments that I laid in an earlier group. The part of paragraph 3 of Schedule 5 that I find most difficult is a subset of the requirement for banks to provide information. The overarching requirement instructs banks to hand over to the Government, on request, three months of account statements for them to examine. The schedule says that the information must be used only to help determine whether or not to make a deduction under the Bill. I was trying to find out from the Minister what assurances there are that the use will be that narrow. It may be that I have misread it, but I cannot see any form of transparency or accountability that would provide that kind of assurance. It all seems to be completely internal to the DWP. My first question to the Minister is therefore this: how will the scheme verify that the information is not used for other purposes, because detailed account statements undoubtedly have information that could interest all kinds of people? Most importantly, will that information be destroyed after an investigation is closed?

The part of paragraph 3 that exercised me the most, in the original language of the Bill that came from the Commons, is that which prohibited banks from ever notifying the account holder that their information has been handed over to the state and for what purpose. To the Minister’s credit, that now seems to have been amended to say that the account holder can be told after three months. I am unclear whether that is an automatic notification, notification at the bank’s choice, or notification that requires a request from the account holder. To me, this matters, because I suspect that transparency is the only way to ensure that the information in the account is not used for purposes other than those stated in the Bill.

I am generally exceedingly uncomfortable with the idea that the original version basically required a sort of covert process, in which the information held on an individual by the state was not disclosed to that individual. The Minister has often suggested that the monitoring of accounts is to start a dialogue to see if a person has made a mistake in overclaiming rather than committing fraud. If somebody is not told that their information has been taken, read through, examined and dealt with in detail, I cannot see how they can possibly enter into a constructive discussion to explain what is happening.

I want to draw the attention of the Minister to an underlying principle. Jonathan Fisher KC has published part 1 of an independent review of disclosure and fraud offences, which was commissioned by the Government. I want to quote his words on transparency, because it seems that transparency was not built into the original Bill and is still limited in the revised version. He said that:

“A modern disclosure regime must require the prosecution”—


he is talking about the courts—

“to be honest concerning the reasonable lines of inquiry that have been pursued and how investigative material has been gathered, handled, and interrogated”.

I would very much like to see those principles embedded in this part of the Bill. I think we need assurances from the Minister that if we cannot find the language then they will in practice be embedded in this part of the Bill, because transparency is fundamental.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, the amendments in this group tabled by the Government contain a mixture of substantive safeguards and some technical improvements designed to tidy up and clarify the Bill.

The main amendment, government Amendment 91, introduces further restrictions and procedural safeguards around the use of the new recovery methods created by Schedules 5 and 6. It requires that liable persons are properly notified and given an opportunity to settle their liability before enforcement action is taken, and that alternative routes of recovery, such as deductions from earnings or benefits, are considered before more intrusive powers are used. These are sensible and welcome provisions that strengthen procedural fairness and ensure that the new powers are exercised proportionately.

We do, however, note that these changes have come rather late in the passage of the Bill. They are substantive clarifications, going to the heart of how these powers will operate in practice. However, I listened to the explanations from the Minister on an earlier point I made about this and I now understand her position—while not necessarily agreeing with it, I understand it.

The group includes two largely technical amendments. The first, to Schedule 6, allows the Secretary of State to make regulations relating to applications to or appeals from magistrates’ courts in England and Wales, ensuring clarity and consistency in procedure. The second, to Clause 94, aligns the Bill with the Data Protection Act 2018 by confirming that “processing” has the same meaning as in the Act. This is a straight- forward but important clarification. It is my view that these amendments strengthen the fairness and clarity of the Bill, ensuring that it operates in a way that is proportionate, consistent and aligned with existing law. We therefore support them.

On Amendment 92, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, she may not be surprised that we do not support this amendment. It would remove a key part of the machinery that underpins the operation of this Bill—specifically, the ability of the Department for Work and Pensions to obtain limited, relevant bank information to determine whether a direct deduction order should be made. I realise that this chimes with the noble Baroness’s earlier Amendment 45A, so I will not repeat the comments I made then, save to say that this is a considerable change and would strike at the heart of the framework that enables the recovery of money lost to fraud and error.

The Government must have the legal capacity to verify whether an individual is eligible for the payments they are receiving and whether further action is required to prevent overpayment or recover funds that are owed to the state and, by extension, to the taxpayer. If a person receives money from the state, the state has both the right and the duty to ensure that this money is not being misused—and certainly is not ending up in the pockets of fraudsters or criminals. The Minister has already made clear that individuals in receipt of benefits will be informed that the Government may access certain account information for the purposes of investigating suspected fraud or error.

We are satisfied with the Government’s assurance that the information obtained under these provisions will be high level, proportionate and strictly limited to what is necessary for the purpose of recovering money lost to fraud and overpayment. Far from being excessive, the powers set out in this part of the schedule are a necessary and measured tool to protect public funds. For those reasons, we oppose Amendment 92.

Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

2nd reading
Thursday 15th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, this is not my usual field, so I shall be listening with great interest to the various speeches, including the maiden speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Spielman. Stamping out public sector fraud, including public authority and welfare fraud, is clearly a priority. These are despicable crimes that undermine our public services and, in the end, hurt the most vulnerable. However, this Bill, at least to my eyes, has some serious flaws.

Part 1 focuses on investigation of fraud outside the tax and benefits system. As I read it, I was surprised to find that it has nothing to say on whistleblowing. I am certain that, without a powerful whistleblowing framework that keeps whistleblowers safe from retaliation and leads to investigation, most bad actors will escape investigation. If the Minister doubts me on the importance of whistleblowing, I ask her to look at the speeches by Nick Ephgrave, director of the Serious Fraud Office, who is even willing to incentivise whistleblowers because they are so vital. In April, he told the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Anti-Corruption and Responsible Tax that his number one need from parliamentarians is to get him more whistleblowers.

Whistleblowers identify where in the haystack wrongdoing is hidden and provide vital evidence. The noble Lord, Lord Livermore, is more frequently the Minister engaged in debates in which I am involved. In response to a question from me in February, he said:

“I met Tom Hayhoe, the Covid Counter-Fraud Commissioner … he told me that he is considering a whistleblowing mechanism to enable the public to draw attention to abuses they are aware of”.—[Official Report, 5/2/25; col. 690.]


I ask the Minister to go back and look at this issue, because, if she talks more broadly to investigators, she will discover this is a critical area which needs to be seized upon immediately.

On the second part of the Bill, I take on board the concerns of UK Finance that the Bill risks not achieving its objectives. The role given to banks to verify eligibility for benefits and recover money seriously needs a rethink to provide proper customer safeguards. It makes no allowance for people of low financial capability, for example, nor even for those hiding funds to escape domestic abuse. I am really concerned that it creates two classes of citizen: those with full rights in our society, protected by the FCA’s consumer duty, for example, and a lower class, defined as benefit recipients, who are investigated without cause and treated as a suspect class.

Listening to the finance industry, it is absolutely clear that bad actors, especially the gangs, will have no difficulty at all working around all the new rules and programmes. The Minister must be aware that any serious crackdown on fraud has to tackle the organised crime gangs who conspire to commit welfare fraud on an industrial scale. Last year, one gang alone was convicted of defrauding £53 million of universal credit. That was a very rare success, unfortunately. Since I cannot find it anywhere, can the Minister say today what percentage of welfare fraud is the work of these organised gangs? I suspect that the number is very large.

The main tool in this Bill is to initiate fishing expeditions and, from wide experience across the fields of investigation and fraud, they are the laziest and most ineffective way of fighting wrongdoing. If anyone doubts the capacity of the DWP to get schemes such as this one wrong, look at the carer’s allowance scandal, which particularly exercises my colleagues. My noble friend Lord Palmer of Childs Hill will elaborate, but 136,730 people are at present caught in outstanding debt for carer’s allowance overpayments which were not their fault, but for which their lives are being devastated. I fear that, in the way this Bill is crafted, they and people like them will be among the primary targets, even though they never actually committed fraud; they just failed to understand impossibly complex rules or to identify the DWP’s mistakes.

The DWP must of course crack down on fraud, but it needs to be informed by best practice. On that basis, I believe this Bill needs a significant rethink.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to today’s thoughtful and decidedly not-at-all dull debate. Committee will be some fun indeed. It was a particular pleasure to hear the maiden speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Spielman, whom I welcome to the spreadsheet fan club. Frankly, I could have done with one of her spreadsheets to keep track of all the questions that I have been asked today. In the absence of that I am bound to miss some, for which I apologise in advance, but I will do my best. It is good to have her among our number, and I look forward to hearing more from her in future.

Perhaps we should start briefly with the challenge that the Bill is designed to address. As my noble friend Lady Anderson made clear at the start, public fraud is simply not acceptable—as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, said, fraud is not acceptable generally, but public sector fraud is also not acceptable. Fraud does not become a victimless crime because it is directed at the state: it will cheat the public purse of money that could be spent on public services, which could help this Government deliver an NHS fit for the future or invest in our children to give them the best start in life.

Listening to some of the examples given by my noble friends Lord Rook and Lady Alexander, it is so shocking that, during Covid, when people and charities were out there breaking their backs trying to serve people who were in desperate need, others were out there lining their pockets. It is a disgrace. It was very moving to hear from my noble friend Lady Alexander about what is happening when people are doing all that they have had to do in the British Council to pay that back when others do not want to pay back the money that they should be paying back to the state. That cannot be right.

I also think that fraud in our social security system is damaging in a different way, whether it is undertaken by individuals or organised criminals. I think the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, asked what the breakdown of that was. I can tell her that, in 2023-24, of the £7.3 billion lost in fraud in social security, 6% was taken by organised gangs and the rest was taken by individuals.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, is that the number of cases that were identified because there was enough evidence and people were arrested, or does she believe that that is an estimate of the total amount of organised fraud in the system?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

It is a percentage of the amount of fraud that was recognised. Clearly, we do not have figures for the amount of fraud of any kind that has not been identified or recognised. That was the figure for the amount we have on our books as organised fraud.

The reality is that, whether it is done by organised criminals or by individuals, this is not okay. It is not fair to taxpayers who fund social security, nor to the vast majority of people who claim only the benefits to which they are entitled. In my job, when money is as tight as it is now, I want every penny available for social security to go to the people who need it most.

This Government are determined to tackle the issue head-on with a Bill that will provide the right tools to protect public money and fight modern fraud, coupled with the right safeguards. The Bill is tough on those who commit fraud against our public services or our welfare state. In doing so, it gives reassurance to taxpayers. One of the side effects is that it will be helpful to DWP claimants who make genuine mistakes, by helping to spot errors earlier so they can avoid getting into lots of debt.

I thought the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Spielman, about reciprocity was there. If people do not have confidence in our welfare state and the underpinning mutual shared obligations, that challenges our ability to maintain confidence and carry on supporting people in the future. We need to get this right, but we do not need to demonise people to do that. We just need to make it clear that people should get what they are entitled to, and, if they are not getting that, we should address it.

We believe this Bill strikes the right balance, giving the Government new powers proportionate to the problem we are tackling while ensuring that those powers are wrapped around with effective safeguards and protections to give confidence to Parliament and the country. Having said that, and having listened to the debate, I recognise that it is just possible that not everybody agrees with us—or, at least, not yet. We have some way to go. I have every confidence that, once I have fully explained this, there will be unanimity across the House—or near-unanimity at least, being a realist.

Having listened to the debate, it seems to me that there are a number of challenges. First, I offer a couple of truisms. There is no silver bullet to fraud. If there were one single thing to do, the previous Government would have tackled this, or some other Government would have done it. Tackling fraud is an accretion of a series of small decisions which, between them, add up to make a difference. Therefore, this Bill does what it does and does not do other things: it does not tackle bank robbers or tax evasion. It is a contribution, and I think it is an appropriate one.

Secondly, we have to be a bit careful that the best is not the enemy of the good. What is in front of us is action that this Government will take that has not been done before, and I commend it to the House. The challenges that we have seem to come in three broad categories: we are not going far enough, we are going too far, or there are some challenges in the way that we are doing this. I will briefly look at each in turn.

I start with the challenges that we are not going far enough, which have come from a number of noble Lords. The noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, and I have great respect for one another, but I say very gently that some of the critiques she has made of the Bill strike me as a little ironic, given that the last Government were in for 14 years and had all that time to take action. What did we get? We got one predecessor of one of these measures, which was put in at the fag end of the last Government and dropped into the other place after Committee, with none of the information that the noble Baroness is demanding from me—nothing at all, not even a requirement to produce a code of practice, never mind actually producing one, and absolutely none of the safeguards or protections. Now she is in opposition, I fully respect that it is the job of the Opposition to demand things of the Government, and she does a fine job of doing that. She also will not mind if, in turn, I occasionally throw back at her what her own Government failed to do. In this area, I think we are doing rather better.

Having got that off my chest, let us move on. It is worth saying that this Government are actually doing something. We committed to the biggest-ever savings package on fraud, error and debt at the Autumn Budget. Along with the Spring Statement, DWP fraud and error measures are estimated to achieve £9.6 billion of savings by 2029-30, of which up to £1.5 billion will be generated by this Bill. So this Bill is not all that we are doing, but it is an important thing that we are doing.

The noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, asked about cost. In the end, the costs of DWP working through these measures will be dependent on the munificence of the Treasury at the spending review, which I am not allowed to pre-empt. The impact assessment sets out our estimate and shows that around four times the benefit of every pound of our departmental spending will come back on scored measures to 2029-30.

On not doing enough, the noble Baroness asked about “sickfluencers”. She is right—it is the view of this department that we have the powers to deal with these crimes at the moment. We think the Bill will help the PSFA to do that at the same time. But, if she has ideas about other ways in which that could happen, I look forward to hearing them, along with her many other ideas for tackling fraud, which I have no doubt Committee will give us every opportunity to discuss.

While I am on the point, the noble Baronesses, Lady Kramer and Lady Stedman-Scott raised the question of whistleblowing. We absolutely agree; we want people to pass on information about fraudsters who are taking from our public services. We are open to keep looking at the best way to do that. We are working with partners such as Action Fraud to make it simple and easy for the public.

In the case of DWP, benefit fraud can be reported by the public online, by phone or by post—and, trust me, it is. But also, DWP staff have clear channels to report. On top of that, the PSFA will look into the possibility of being listed by the Department for Business and Trade as a body with which individuals can raise concerns around public sector fraud. That will help on that side.

While we are on the PSFA, concerns were raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, and others about whether it is doing enough and about the scale. The PSFA’s enforcement unit is relatively new in what it does. The noble Baroness, Lady Finn, was a little a little bit harsh on test and learn. When the enforcement unit is as new as it is and will only with the passage of the Bill get the powers it needs to do any of these things, surely testing and learning is the right thing to do. If it can demonstrate clearly that results come from that, the possibility for scaling will be significant. I promise I am not making any assumptions of the Treasury.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, asked whether the Government audit the work of the PSFA and whether the powers in the Bill will add anything. The PSFA publishes annual reports and has benefits audited by the Government Internal Audit Agency. Examples were given in my noble friend’s opening speech of where the PSFA currently cannot make the desired progress because it has not got the powers it needs. The Bill will give them to it.

That is, briefly, the case for not going far enough. Let us now do the going too far case. A number of noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, to a degree, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, my noble friends Lord Davies and Lord Sikka, and the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, are concerned about possible infringements on the right to privacy or other aspects of the reach of the Bill. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, for acknowledging the improvements made by the Bill. I raised a number of reservations when the last Government introduced their third-party data measure, because I felt that the powers were simply not proportionate and that there were not enough safeguards around them.

While I am here, I say to my noble friend Lord Davies that the fact that that we provide safeguards does not mean the powers are wrong. That is what safeguards are for. There are safeguards in all aspects of life. I will come back to that. It means that we want to be transparent and show people that powers the state is taking are used appropriately. That is what they are for. The noble Lord explained the limitations.

We are now limiting the benefits in scope. For all the measures there will be clear limits about what information can be requested, for what purpose, and how the PSFA and DWP will use it. That is all new, and the Bill introduces considerable oversight and reporting requirements.

I believe the Bill strikes the right balance and, in answer to my noble friend Lord Sikka, I am confident that it is complying with the Government’s duties under the ECHR. The Government’s detailed analysis on compatibility is set out in the published ECHR memorandum.

I need to take on a couple of noble Lords who have suggested that this is a sort of broad trawling expedition. It has been described as DWP going out there and trying to have access to everybody’s bank accounts—suspicion-snooping. That is a simple misunderstanding of the nature of the powers. Let me try to explain why. DWP will not be given access to people’s bank accounts by this measure, which is about banks being asked to examine their own data, which they already have and can already look at. They have been asked to provide DWP with the minimum amount of information necessary to highlight whether there is a possibility that someone may not be meeting a specific eligibility rule for a specific benefit. At the point the information is shared with DWP, no one is suspected of having done anything wrong. The presumption of innocence is still there.

Workers (Economic Affairs Committee Report)

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Thursday 8th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I was privileged to be part of the committee that delivered this report, serving under the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, who has so effectively presented the conclusions in our report and given an update based on the additional data that has become available. I am probably rather redundant in this debate, but that has never stopped me before and I am afraid it will not do so today.

Economic activity matters to economic growth—the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, rehearsed this issue well—so it was not great news when on Monday the ONS revised its figures for the three months to November 2023, showing economic inactivity at 21.9% rather than 20.8%. I accept, as the noble Lords, Lord Bridges and Lord Willetts, the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and others have pointed out, that the ONS is finding it extremely difficult to get sound survey statistics in this changing labour market. On its behalf, I point out that it is not alone; the FT ran an article last week entitled “Guess the US job numbers”. This is really difficult, and we must accept that we will never get pure statistics, but our goal must be to get enough to drive us in the right direction.

It is clear from all the numbers we have that Covid left a different impact in the UK from other developed countries, as the noble Lords, Lord Skidelsky, Lord Turnbull and Lord Bilimoria, pointed out. Other countries found that economic inactivity during the Covid period recovered post Covid, but we have found the reverse. If anything, it has intensified. It is important to say that, when we began our report, we honestly did not expect to find that early retirement among the 50 to 64 year-old cohort would be such a powerful factor in economic inactivity. If anything, we assumed when we began that a post-Covid rise in sickness and long NHS waiting lists would be the cause. They are important parts of the problem, but our report clearly demonstrates that increased ill health, as others have said, typically came after retirement rather than causing it.

The noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, caught this rather well. The scale of the significant lifestyle change that we identified, which caught me unawares, is still in many ways a mystery. We have heard a number of potential answers to that question today. The noble Lord, Lord Hendy, talked about terms and conditions and the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, about people just not finding their work enjoyable. The noble Viscount, Lord Chandos, and others also addressed this and the noble Lord, Lord de Clifford, gave us an example from veterinary services of why it is so hard to retain people in work, which must be part of their choosing early retirement. We almost have a vicious circle; as people fall out of the workforce, the stress that falls on those who remain is higher than ever. I very much hope the Minister will explore this and that the Government will do significantly more work in this area. I know that the OBR is treating this cohort of 50 to 64 year-olds retiring early as a temporary change; I am less sure, but that is another reason why we need to explore this.

However, I do not think that recognising early retirement negates the urgency of dealing with the NHS backlog. Virtually every speaker made the point that this is a critical area on which we must focus. If people in the 50 to 64 retired cohort become and remain ill, any chance that they will rejoin the workforce is pretty much lost, no matter what support and incentives are on offer. Yesterday’s ONS figures suggesting that some 2 million people in work are underperforming because of sickness underscore the issue. There was a further warning in more recent evidence given to the Economic Affairs Committee, on a different issue, by Richard Hughes, chair of the OBR:

“People used to be getting healthier as they aged, but the data has been more disappointing recently, in the sense that you are getting more years of unhealthy life rather than more years of healthy life”.


We have to find a way to change that, for many reasons, including the workforce. I see no way other than a significant investment in reform to increase services and deal with both prevention and treatment. The noble Lord, Lord Layard, underscored the importance of ensuring that mental health is not neglected in that focus on reforming health and investing in improved health.

In undertaking this report, we were beginning to focus on a much more fundamental problem which may not have been as fully discussed in this debate: the changing ratio between our working-age population in the UK and our dependant population. Richard Hughes said:

“The underlying demographics remain pretty stark, in the sense that, in the 1970s, we had about two people in work for every one person in retirement. At the moment, we have about one and a half people in work for every one person in retirement. By the time we get out to 2070, we have only one person in work for every one person in retirement”.


This is despite expected future increases in the state pension age. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, has a point: for some jobs it is easy to think of asking people to work longer, but for many it would not be appropriate.

There was a time, perhaps until 2018 or 2019—and the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, made this point—that bringing women into the workforce and raising the state pension age and free movement sustained our working-age population. The first two have largely run their course, and, as we know, free movement has ended. This is not a debate on immigration or Brexit, but I am quite taken with the fact that, according to the OBR, historic data showed EU migrants as having higher employment rates and making fewer demands on public services than the general population, while migrants under the current system are now forecast to mirror the population. This highlights that we need a proper immigration debate in which workforce issues are properly included, and the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, underscored that point.

This is also not a debate on productivity, but obviously increases in productivity can substitute for workforce. The noble Lord, Lord Willetts, talked about technical and educational qualifications, and indeed childcare, as playing an important part in releasing people into the workforce. Better training, better use of the apprenticeship levy and return to work schemes are all important, but we should not fool ourselves that these will provide us with a sufficient number of people to make up the workforce shortfall in the demographics we are looking at.

Like a lot of people, I very much hope that Al will give us a productivity revolution and, essentially, resolve our demographic shortfall. One hears this spoken of widely. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bristol made the point that AI comes with many issues, complications and moral questions. I would add another word of caution around the simple assumption that AI will drive forward this kind of change in productivity. The House will remember that, many years ago, we discussed the notion that first came the agricultural revolution, which drove up productivity, and then the Industrial Revolution drove it up, and then in the 1990s we expected that the digital revolution would follow the same pattern. But in the UK at least—quite a number of noble Lords have talked about our weak productivity performance—the digital revolution changed the way we work but led to no rise in our productivity.

I am desperately concerned that, in looking at this issue—the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, gave us the statistics on how productivity has been scraping along, barely above zero—we recognise that, if we are going to use AI as the offset, we need a proper strategy in place to be able to do so. It has got to be comprehensive and challenging, and not the bitty and scattered arrangements or pieces of policy that we have today.

I close by picking up the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and the noble Lord, Lord Davies. Frankly, the Government’s reply to the report is pretty complacent and largely misses the point. It does not recognise the scale of the issue that we are dealing with. Yes, we need better data, but we also need the Government to understand that there are real and fundamental issues around the size of the workforce and our demographic profile. These issues have to be thought through and encompassed in every plan that we have for the economy, or else we will not see the economic growth that we want to see to sustain our population and our quality of life.

Cost of Living Support

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Thursday 22nd June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I hope I can help the noble Lord. As I have already mentioned, inflation really is one of the Prime Minister’s key priorities. He has made it clear, as we have, that reducing inflation is absolutely key. He also speaks about growth, while making it clear that growth comes as a secondary item to inflation. However, it is also important that the economy grows. In previous answers, I have made it clear that we are doing as much as we possibly can to look at what more banks can do to be helpful. One thing which I have not said is that we are working closely with the Bank of England, while making it clear that the Bank is independent in also working as hard as it is in the fight to bring down inflation. It is not just us in the UK; as others have said, there are similar issues in other countries, particularly in Europe. However, I realise that in the UK we still have a lot of work to do.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister looks to a negotiation with the banks to provide better terms to mortgage holders who are under pressure. He must surely accept that the banks will offer those terms to those they deem their most attractive customers, not to low-income house owners, who cannot take the required flexibility of interest-only or a long extension to their mortgage’s life. That is the group, surely, which needs to be served by an emergency mortgage fund to rescue this situation. Surely he could find the money to support those who will see their mortgages rise by more than 10% of their disposable income and take the money back from the banks, which are seeing bumper profits off the back of rising interest rates.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I certainly note what the noble Baroness has said. I have mentioned already that the Chancellor is meeting the banks. I do not want to pre-empt the outcome of those discussions. What is important are the initiatives we have taken already to help people. There is support for people who have mortgages. We have increased the generosity and availability of the support for mortgage interest scheme, meaning that those on universal credit can apply for a loan to help cover interest repayments after three months rather than nine and can now receive support while working.

A new Financial Conduct Authority customer duty, coming into effect next month, will ensure that firms put customers first, delivering fair value and ensuring good outcomes for those in financial difficulty. The noble Baroness raises a very important point and I hope that further measures can be produced. We await the outcome of discussions.

Pensions: Online Dashboard

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Tuesday 24th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, let me first say that the figure of 50 million referred to is an estimate made in 2012 of the number of dormant, not lost, pension pots by 2050. To suggest that 50 million pension pots will be lost unless a pensions dashboard is introduced is wholly inaccurate: I want to make that very clear. We are looking through the whole process and at experience overseas in order to understand more about pensions dashboards. The noble Lord knows that the whole process is very complex. We are working through the options around scheme participation in any potential pensions dashboard. The decision whether to compel participation depends on a number of issues, such as the functionality, delivery model and governance of the dashboard. We will set out the Government’s view in due course.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, can the Minister address this feet-dragging? George Osborne announced that this project would go ahead in 2016, it was meant to be up and running next year, and Guy Opperman, in his role, constantly says that he is actively supporting it. The industry is—to put it mildly—cross, having done all the work it needs to contribute towards creating a pensions dashboard. It is vital so that savers can make the best investments of their pension money, and it is key to fraud prevention. Both of those are crucial issues. Can the Minister confirm that the rumours that the scheme is in jeopardy are false, and can she please finally give us a timetable?

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [HL]

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

3rd reading (Minutes of Proceedings): House of Lords
Tuesday 21st November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I add my most sincere thanks to those of my noble friend Lady Coussins. This new clause is incredibly important. Yesterday, this was unanimously welcomed at the National Mental Capacity Forum leadership group, including by all those from the financial sector represented in the group, as being a very important way forward to make sure that our society is increasingly integrated and recognises the needs of those with permanent and transient impairments and incapacity, and those who may temporarily have been put in extremely vulnerable circumstances.

I also thank the Minister for the way she has listened and stayed in communication with us as the wording has been developed. It really was a very positive and constructive dialogue.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, as well as congratulating the Minister on bringing the language of “vulnerable circumstances” to the Bill, I want to congratulate the others who have made this issue so clear during our very positive and engaged debates; namely, the noble Baronesses, Lady Coussins, Lady Finlay and Lady Hollins. When the Minister first put down a slightly earlier draft of the amendment, which reordered some of the opening sections of Clause 2, because I am a naturally suspicious person, I tried to see whether there was some bear trap in there or something that I should be afraid of. I could find no such bear trap—and nor could my colleague, my noble friend Lord Sharkey, who I think now has a reputation for the most incisive examination of language in a Bill. I fully understand the desire of the Government to be clear and transparent—they seem very positive. I shall have more to say about the Bill in later stages—but, with this first grouping, we start off on a rather good note for the opening of Third Reading.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on the hard work done by her and the Bill team to include the changes called for in our earlier debates on the Bill. I fully support the reworking of the sections to improve the clarity of the Bill; the adjustments are sensible and pragmatic. I also add my congratulations to the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay, Lady Hollins and Lady Coussins, on the important provision relating to vulnerable individuals. It is important that we have achieved that increased protection for them in the Bill. I again thank my noble friend and offer support for the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

The noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, was kind enough to thank all sections of your Lordships’ House for their contributions to the earlier debates and for their support for this amendment. I endorse everything she said. I am delighted to have played a small part in the process of creating this legal framework and delivering the powers needed. What we want now is for the scheme to be designed and delivered quickly and effectively. Having listened to the Minister today, I place my trust in the Government to see this through as soon as reasonably practicable.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Sharkey is unable to be with us at the moment because he is at the Economic Affairs Committee. I suspect that, by the time that committee finishes and he can come down and join us, we will have moved to the conclusion of Third Reading, so I am privileged to speak on his behalf, as it were.

I will talk for a moment about the debt respite scheme and then just say a few words about Amendment 33, which stands in my noble friend’s name and now has the added support of the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe. The debt respite scheme is absolutely crucial and I congratulate all parties, including the Opposition Front Bench and the Government Front Bench, and the Bill team for working through all of this. This is my opportunity to say that the Bill team has been very open to discussion.

Like others, I recognise that this Bill is very different from the fairly narrow, technical Bill that was originally conceived. This House took on board the argument that many of the issues raised, particularly those around financial inclusion, cold calling and debt respite, were not party-political controversies. All signed up to those issues, and the only question was whether there would be other vehicles in the very near future to carry through those policies. We can all see that the works are getting more and more gummed up on a daily basis, and I suspect there is real relief on all sides now that important issues such as cold calling, debt respite and financial inclusion have found their way into this Bill so that action can be taken despite whatever may be happening at a national level on the broader policies, particularly with Brexit. That is a real win for everybody in the House, including the Government and also the Minister, who has turned a technical Bill into an opportunity to make a real impact on people’s lives.

On Amendment 33, which amends the Long Title, I will pick up the point that the Minister made when she introduced Amendment 1 and talked about the importance of clarity and transparency. To the general public, this Bill will not be noted because it brought together three very important bodies into a single body, although all of that matters and will itself breed quite a significant number of good outcomes; it will be remembered most because it gave the Government the power to deal with cold calling and the abuse from which much of the population suffer on a daily basis. As many noble Lords, including colleagues on the Cross Benches and the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, have said, the most vulnerable have been impacted most by cold-calling abuse.

The Bill will also be remembered because of the debt respite clauses. To have a Bill in which neither of those two issues appears anywhere in the Long Title would seem most peculiar to anybody trying to find the appropriate legislation tackling these issues. You would have to guess that they might be in a Bill with the more limited Title. The words “and for connected purposes” might mean a great deal to people in this House, but do not mean a great deal to people elsewhere. Making sure that the Long Title fully reflects the strengths of the Bill and that those strengths can be easily recognised is a real improvement. It will rebound very much to the Government’s advantage.

Most of our exchanges have been extremely gracious, so I hope that the Minister will feel able to overcome her irritation around this one last clause. We have worked well together as a House, which has been crucially important. As I say, our thanks go very much to the Bill team, which has been a crucial part of this. I pay particular tribute to my noble friend Lord Sharkey since he is not here and able to speak for himself. He, among a number of others in the House, has contributed to a very worthwhile piece of legislation.

[Viscount Brookeborough (CB)]

My Lords, I add my praise to the two Front Benches. I should not think they could sustain much more joint praise, but on this occasion they have moved mountains in the length of time that this has taken. I emphasise how important the respite is from the point of view that every single case is a personal case of one family. It is not a matter of statistics, of speaking only of “30% of the families”; every single case that is allowed to go through this debt is a tragedy.

I say on behalf of Northern Ireland, if not the devolved parts of the UK, that it is good to see that it may be extended there, especially, from my point of view, to Northern Ireland. There are many individuals who, although they may not be listening to this, will unknowingly benefit from this to a tremendous extent. I thank all parties involved.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, I announced on Report in response to amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, the Government would bring forward amendments to introduce an interim fee cap in respect of PPI claims management services. Amendments 25, 26, 27, 29 and 30 honour that commitment—and I am sorry to see that the noble Baroness is not in her place.

As noble Lords are aware, this Bill already puts a duty on the FCA to cap fees charged in respect of financial services claims. This will ensure fair and proportionate prices for consumers using these services. However, as we have previously discussed, the implementation of the new regulatory regime and an effective, robust cap will necessarily take some time. This is a particular concern, given that the FCA’s PPI claims deadline may have passed by the time the FCA’s fee cap is in place. That is why the Government are introducing an amendment to set a fee cap at 20%, excluding VAT, of the claim value. The interim fee cap will apply to both CMCs and legal services providers that carry out claims management services in relation to PPI claims, to be enforced by the relevant regulators. It will be enforced by relevant regulators from two months after the Bill receives Royal Assent, until the FCA is in a position to implement its own cap. This cap will complement the range of measures in relation to PPI and other financial claims that the claims management regulation unit has announced. These include banning upfront fees and banning charges, where it is identified that the consumer does not have a relationship or relevant policy with the lender, as well as ensuring that all cancellation charges are reasonable and that consumers are provided with an itemised bill setting out details of what they relate to. This package of measures will support the Government’s aim to ensure that the claims management sector works in the interests of consumers by protecting them from excessive fees.

On Report, I also committed to tabling a government amendment to extend the FCA regulation of claims management to Scotland, should the UK and Scottish Governments agree that position. I am pleased to be able to confirm that the Scottish Government have now written to the UK Government to confirm agreement to extending regulation there. It highlighted that the situation in Scotland has changed since this issue was first discussed earlier this year. Legislation is currently progressing through the Scottish Parliament that will allow Scottish solicitors to offer increased funding options to clients on a no-win no-fee basis. As a result of these changes, Scottish solicitors will no longer need to set up CMCs to offer damages-based agreements to clients, and the CMC landscape is expected to change significantly.

To ensure that CMCs are not able to take advantage of this potential gap in regulation by targeting Scottish consumers, the UK and Scottish Governments have now agreed that FCA claims management regulation should extend to Scotland. This will ensure that there are appropriate regulatory standards in place to deal with CMC practices across Great Britain. These amendments follow up on my commitment on Report and do just that, extending FCA regulation of CMCs to Scotland, which will ensure that Scottish consumers are protected in the same way as those in England and Wales.

I note that the constitutional position of this issue has not been entirely straightforward as CMC regulation clearly concerns a mix of reserved and devolved matters. The regulation of the legal profession in Scotland is of course devolved, whereas matters of competition and aspects of consumer protection are reserved. It is the UK Government’s view that CMC regulation concerns reserved matters of competition and consumer protection. The Scottish Government have confirmed that they will seek the legislative consent of the Scottish Parliament for the CMC provisions as part of the wider legislative consent Motion for this Bill.

For the purposes of record, I should note that the UK Government’s view is that only Clause 20(4) relating to consumer advocacy is relevant to the legislative consent process, although I am aware that the Scottish Government might take a broader interpretation of how much of this is covered by the LCM. Nevertheless, the crucial issue here is that we have agreement that FCA regulation of CMCs should cover Scotland. I believe that this represents a sensible outcome which will benefit and protect consumers across Great Britain.

I am sure your Lordships will agree that the introduction of an interim restriction on charges in respect of CMCs is a positive step forward in ensuring that the claims management sector works in the interests of consumers. I am sure you will also agree that it is desirable to extend FCA regulation of CMCs to Scotland, given the change in circumstances there. I beg to move.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, I apologise, as when I last spoke, I attributed to the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, a very eloquent speech that was made on cold calling and the way it targets vulnerable people, when it was the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, who made that speech. I apologise to both parties. If I have any excuse, it is that I confuse my own children, and one of them is male and the other is female, so it is even more embarrassing.

As regards this group of amendments, my only regret is that the cap on fees is set at 20%. It would have been better to have a lower cap. However, we congratulate the Government on the underlying principle of taking temporary action because it is very likely that by the time the FCA gets its grip on this issue we will be beyond the reach of future PPI claims. However, other than that, I once again thank the Minister for being responsive to the issues that have been raised all around the House, including this one and those of cold calling, debt respite and financial inclusion. This is a very important move by the Minister and her name will be attached to these issues well into the future.

[Baroness Altmann]

My Lords, I too once again thank the Minister and all parties who have worked so hard on this Bill. I thank the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, who initially raised the issue of Scotland. It is excellent that the whole of Great Britain is included in the Bill. I thank the department for all the hard work that it has done to achieve this.

I too am delighted to see a cap on the PPI claims management fee. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, I would very much have liked the Government to agree that the parties responsible for the mis-selling would pay the fee rather than taking it out of the compensation that is paid to the customer. I understand that there may be an issue over the profitability of the claims management company itself but perhaps a compromise would be to split the 20% so that the customer gets 90% of what is due and the financial firm that has done the mis-selling perhaps pays 10% as well to the claims management firm. Having said that, I certainly welcome a 20% cap. I once again thank the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson, Lord Sharkey and Lord McKenzie, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Kramer and Lady Drake, the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and all other noble Lords who have made such great improvements to the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Kramer]

33: Line 1, after “body” insert “(including provision about cold-calling and a debt respite scheme)”

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [HL]

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 31st October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, being a member of the my noble friend Lord Hunt’s flock in your Lordships’ House, I am a bit concerned that if I overly push on Amendment 41, which comes hot on the heels of Amendment 39A, I, too, may be the victim of whiplash. We discussed many of the issues in Committee. I have brought back the amendment on Report so that I might push my noble friends who understand the timeline for bringing in a duty of care. My initial intention was to table an amendment placing a general duty of care on financial institutions; as a result of the scope of the Bill, a specific duty as set out in my amendment pertaining to CMCs is what we are discussing today.

I am grateful to all the organisations that helped with briefing for the amendment, not least Macmillan Cancer Support, which really demonstrates what a modern charity can do, not just focusing on the specific issue at the centre of its organisation but going wider to all the elements that directly affect people when they receive a cancer diagnosis. That is partly why I chose to focus on Macmillan and cancer in putting down this amendment. It goes to the heart of bringing to life why there is a need for a general duty of care to be exercised by financial services institutions, when one in two of us will receive a cancer diagnosis in our lifetime. This is not a marginal matter; it demonstrates that financial institutions not only have their current responsibilities and obligations but need that general duty of care.

The amendment deals specifically with CMCs. I push my noble friend the Minister to accept it and to give some further description building on comments that he made in Committee on the timeline for considering bringing forward and implementing a general duty of care, with the good offices of the FCA obviously involved—I am grateful to the FCA for meeting me to discuss this, not least Mr Christopher Woolard. I shall say no more; the arguments were put in Committee. I urge my noble friend to accept the amendment and beg to move.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, on sticking with this issue, because it is fundamental. I say to the Government that a duty of care is so important and should be so central to every piece of our financial services industry that we should not let the perfect—having a general duty of care—be the enemy of the good, which is the opportunity to put a specific duty of care in this Bill. I hope the Government will consider that.

I have the privilege to be on the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. As we sought to strengthen the framework of regulation and to expose a lot of misdirection within the financial services industry, I think everybody, not only on the committee but far more broadly, agreed that the key problem lay in culture. We have turned to the banking and financial services industries and asked them through various bodies to improve their culture, but surely we also have a responsibility to drive that with every piece of legislation that comes our way. Duty of care reflects that whole-culture approach: the underlying, underpinning approach that we expect our financial services to take, where the interests of the customer are at the centre. It is not that the financial services should not be able to make profits—of course, that is the business they are in—but it should never be at the expense of that central interest of the client or customer.

I urge the Government to take seriously this opportunity in an area where there has been extraordinary abuse. I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, for example; others talked about whiplash and issues around holiday sickness. In issue after issue, we have seen a complete failure in the culture of the bodies that provide such services. We should tackle that issue head on and not be afraid to use language that is clearly around that duty of care—not considering it too soft or too difficult—so that it becomes a general habit. I hope we will not rely just on general duties of care, because those can sometimes be imperfect, but will make sure that in every piece of financial services legislation this issue is underscored. In that, this legislation could be a leader.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, like the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, we have added our name to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, which takes us back to regulatory principles and the duty of care.

The noble Lord is right to have removed the “where appropriate” qualification from his earlier amendment. The amendment deals with the regulation of claims management, although this is seen as an opportunity to debate the wider calls for a duty of care across the financial services piece.

On the narrower point, we acknowledge that in Committee the Minister gave assurances about the FCA consulting on the design of new rules for claims management companies and taking account of its statutory operational objectives, including an appropriate degree of protection for consumers. However, we note that there is no current alignment of the objectives of the CMRU and the FCA, and there seems to be no certainty about where this process will end up.