Transport: Shared Space Crossings
Baroness Kramer Excerpts(9 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord McAvoy
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the impact of shared space crossings on the safety of blind and partially sighted people and other people with a disability.
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Kramer) (LD)
My Lords, the safety of all road users is of paramount importance. Our guidance on designing shared spaces makes it clear that the needs of all groups, including disabled people, must be considered during development. The design of shared space schemes, including types of crossing and assessment of safety implications, is for local authorities to determine. We have circulated guidance headed “Access for Blind People in Towns”, provided by the National Federation of the Blind, to 3,300 local authority and practitioner contacts.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her full Answer. Recently I met with a delegation of people from Gloucester, including a Mr Bill Waddell from the partially sighted and blind organisations, and I have become aware, having since done a bit of work on it, that there is extreme anxiety among that community about the impact of shared space crossings on them. Will the Minister be willing to meet with me and a representative from the Royal National Institute of Blind People to discuss further how we can assist that community in making sure that they do not feel discriminated against? If the Minister is also agreeable to it, I suggest that we include the noble Lords, Lord Low of Dalston and Lord Holmes of Richmond, in that meeting.
Baroness Kramer
I would be absolutely delighted to meet. I meet the RNIB quite frequently, and if the noble Lord could ask whether it could bring me an update on the guide dog puppy Kramer, that would be really appreciated.
Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)
My Lords, Blackpool has done a U-turn and Gloucester and Warwick have also done a U-turn on shared space crossings. What advice would my noble friend the Minister give to any authority contemplating these architectural conceits and planning follies—these health and safety disasters?
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, as you know, the Government provided detailed guidance in a publication in 2011, which was based on extensive research. As I said, we have also made available to all relevant groups the advice from the National Federation of the Blind, which covers these kinds of issues. However, I would point out that well designed shared space can work for people. For example, for those who have mobility issues or use a wheelchair, the removal of kerbs can be a tremendous advantage, so it is important that they are very well designed and, obviously, that equality law prevails in this area.
Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)
My Lords, one of the sites that received enormous attention was Exhibition Road, between the museums in South Kensington. Over Christmas time I sought to escort three grandchildren, all under the age of 10, out of the Science Museum to the V&A. They moved out into a road which was absolutely tenanted by pedestrians, because the museums are enormously popular, but the other side of the road was temporarily free of pedestrians and then one car and one taxi went past at about 30 miles per hour—the speed limit is meant to be 20. We cannot possibly have a situation where the speed limit is not maintained and surveyed carefully in these spaces; otherwise, pedestrians are greatly at risk.
Baroness Kramer
I would be very happy to try to encourage enforcement. That is obviously part of the programme which should be in place.
Lord Bradshaw (LD)
I rather agree with the Minister that local authorities are best placed to deal with these matters, but one change that the Government could make would be to ensure that all bicycles had a bell on them. That measure could be very cheap, and it would be very effective in preventing accidents between all sorts of people.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, it is true that very often there is a tension between cyclists and pedestrians of various kinds. I do not have a good answer for him, but I will investigate and write.
Railways: Pacer Trains
Baroness Kramer Excerpts(9 years, 5 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Kramer) (LD)
My Lords, I reaffirm the commitment made in the Autumn Statement. The details of how we will give effect to these issues are being considered as part of the development of the invitation to tender for the Northern franchise, which will be published early in 2015. Decisions on the possible replacement of Pacers elsewhere will be considered when the respective franchising competitions—for Great Western and for Wales and Borders—are being specified.
Lord Greaves (LD)
My Lords, I am grateful for that confirmation by my noble friend. Will she confirm that, when the Chancellor said that the franchise in the north would involve,
“replacing the ancient and unpopular Pacer carriages with new and modern trains”,—[Official Report, Commons, 3/12/14; col. 313.]
that means that at least some of the trains will be new? Is that a promise? While she is about it, will she take this opportunity to scotch the alarming rumours that the 30 year-old Pacer trains will be replaced by 40 year -old cast-offs from the District line on the London Underground?
Baroness Kramer
I have to say to my noble friend that that last accusation is a new one to me. Clearly, the Chancellor gave a commitment to replace these trains. We also know that this is a line that is due for electrification. However, I am afraid I cannot share the details with the House until we get to the invitation to tender, because they are still being worked out. It will not be very long to wait; it will be in early 2015.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, while all this is going on, the Government are doing the opposite and giving even more trains to the south. Indeed, today the Minister for Transport, Claire Perry, announced that there would be 10 new four-car trains to take people between Milton Keynes and London. Last week, I believe, new diesel trains were ordered and committed to go to Uckfield and between Ashford and Hastings. Is it not time that this trend was reversed and that the new diesels went to the Northern area? Perhaps the people of Sussex and Kent could try out some Pacers for a few years and see how they get on.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, we are obviously anxious to phase out these Pacers rather than find them new homes. The noble Lord will be aware that we have orders from up and down the country for new rolling stock at significant levels; that includes the north—for example, on the east coast main line. An invitation to tender is coming very shortly in the new year. I cannot speak ahead of it, but I am reasonably confident that my noble friend will be happy.
Lord Deben (Con)
Does my noble friend accept that we in the east of England are extremely pleased that we have just had our first new trains since the beginning of time? Never before has anyone produced a new train for the east of England. Some people may rightly say, “Ah, but this is one of the most important scientific powerhouses of Britain”. Let us thank her and say that it would not have happened had it not been for privatisation.
Baroness Kramer
The railway has certainly been exceedingly successful since its privatisation, and that is reflected in the increased number of passengers. I am delighted at the drive that we have under way to bring on the kind of rolling stock that adds the capacity that we need.
Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)
My Lords, I am sorry that the Minister had not heard that Transport for London is looking at the possibility that certain rolling stock, driven by electricity at the present time, can be converted to diesel. That is why the north of England is shuddering at the prospect that that is where these trains might well end up. After the Chancellor made his Statement, the first thing that the Government did was to delay the decision on the franchise for the north. That is a clear case of built-in delay to get rid of these wretched Pacers, when Northern travellers have among the worst conditions in the whole of the United Kingdom. Is it not clear that the only certain way in which Northern passengers will get taken for a ride is by the Treasury and the Chancellor?
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, your Lordships will be aware that this is a pretty small delay. You will also be aware that there was a great response to the consultation for this line. It was entirely right of the Government to take the time necessary to work through a lot of very thoughtful responses and to make sure that the invitation to tender achieves the best possible outcome for passengers.
Lord Bradshaw
My Lords, will the Minister take notice of what has been happening in Scotland? When the new franchise was introduced, 30 new train sets were ordered immediately on that day from Hitachi. If she looks at the terms and conditions, she will see that these trains have been leased with the support of the Scottish Government—which is not what usually happens here—and they have done an extremely good deal, far better than has been achieved by Whitehall. Is it not the case that local control, be it in Scotland or London, produces far better results than are now produced in Whitehall?
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, this Government are very committed to devolution. The noble Lord will know that, with the Northern and TransPennine franchises, we have been working very closely with Rail North so that it creates a process by which a transfer can be made to Rail North to become, as it were, the specifier and monitor of franchises over time. However, it is a capability that is extremely demanding, as the noble Lord will know, and the evolutionary process of doing this hand in hand with areas that are interested in taking this responsibility to make sure that they develop the capability has to be the right way to go.
Railways: East Coast Main Line
Baroness Kramer Excerpts(9 years, 5 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Kramer) (LD)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat in the form of a Statement the Answer to an Urgent Question given earlier today by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport on the franchise competition for the east coast main line. The Statement is as follows:
“Mr Speaker, first, I welcome the honourable gentleman to his post.
This morning I announced the intention to award the intercity east coast franchise to Stagecoach Virgin, exactly on the schedule we promised two years ago. It is great for passengers. It will bring more trains, faster trains, new trains, better services and better-value fares. It is good for towns and cities up and down the east coast. It is good for our economy and jobs. It is proof that the right route forward for our railways is the private sector and the public sector working together. This deal will make the route of the Flying Scotsman a world-beater once again.
Now, I have heard different advice from the Opposition, led of course by the unions. They told us to leave this route in the hands of its emergency public sector operator. They do not understand that this would deny the east coast line new ideas and investment. They do not understand that it was set up as a short-term measure by the last Labour Transport Secretary, which is why at the time the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said:
“I do not believe that it would be in the public interest for us to have a nationalised train operating company indefinitely”,—[Official Report, 1/7/09; col. 232.]
and the Minister of State, the Member for Tooting, said,
“one reason we are able to invest record sums in our railway service is the revenues that the franchises bring in and the premiums that they pay”.—[Official Report, Commons, 1/7/09; col. 430.]
Right then—wrong now.
It is this Government who are powering ahead with a better plan for our railways. First, this new franchise will be good for people who use the line. This deal will strengthen the vital links from London to Scotland all the way along the route as far as Aberdeen and Inverness. Passengers will benefit from regular, faster, more frequent services to places like Falkirk, Stirling and Edinburgh. Journeys between London and Edinburgh will be regularly down to just four hours by May 2020. Leeds will see regular journey times down to just two hours. Places like Leeds, Bradford, Shipley and Harrogate will see more direct services each day. Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Huddersfield and Dewsbury will all get new direct east coast services, the first from Huddersfield to London since the 1960s. Lincoln, which gets one train a day to London under the current operator, will get one every two hours with the new one. And we have protected service levels to every current main line station.
All these destinations will be served by the new intercity express trains by May 2020. They will be built in the heart of the north-east at the new plant in Newton Aycliffe. So I ask the honourable Member sitting opposite, why does he want to deny the north all these benefits? The new operator will provide 50% more capacity across the east coast network and a 40% increase in morning peak seats to and from Kings Cross, and refurbish the existing fleet. It will cut some of the most expensive fares by 10% from May next year.
But this franchise is not just good for passengers. It is also good for staff. It offers investment in skills, a graduate programme, new apprenticeships and a national academy for rail professional education based in London, York and Derby. This will also be good for taxpayers. The franchise will run for eight years with an option to extend for a further year. In that time, it will return £3.3 billion in premium payments to the taxpayer. These figures are robust; they have been subject to rigorous scrutiny, including by independent auditors. So this deal will bring more services, more passengers and a growing return.
That is why, Mr Speaker, the Government’s franchising programme is creating the railway that this country needs. Passengers in Essex, London and the south-east are already benefiting from the improved services that the partnership of public and private sectors on our railway can provide. This award is further proof that private competition is good for passengers, staff, communities and taxpayers. The quality of the new operator’s plan will benefit the whole country”.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, the Secretary of State set out his schedule for franchising for the east coast in March 2013. It is exactly on schedule. There is nothing artificial about the timing; it is entirely appropriate. On the demand for a public operator, we have always said that we do not have an ideological barrier, but why would you use one when we have excellent private trained operators? This is an absolutely excellent franchise. The argument is often made that the DOR returned £1 billion in revenue. Noble Lords will note that that was over five years, although there are differences in the timetable. We will be getting £3.3 billion from this eight-year franchise.
Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for repeating the Statement. I have to say that it is no surprise—I would have thought to anyone—that the winner of the franchise is one of the three applicants. That seems quite a sensible way for things to go. If there are three applicants, the winner will be one of them.
I have a concern about monopoly. The winner of the franchise is the firm that operates on the west coast. There can be opportunity with monopoly. If we are to have a monopoly, can we have some benefits from it? I am delighted that the tentacles of the east coast will go to Dewsbury and Huddersfield, and that there will be more trains to Bradford and more in the West Riding. Those of us in the Pennines are in a position from which we can look east and west. Will there be opportunity under this franchise, particularly on fares and opportunities to choose routes? Bearing in mind that the operator is to be the same, will there also be fair play on fares for people in the middle of the country?
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, this is certainly not a monopoly situation. Quite a number of companies bid on these franchises across the UK. They all start from a level playing field and we consider them completely impartially. With regard to fares, I note that the new franchise operator proposes a 10% reduction of standard anytime fares on longer distances in May 2015.
Lord Adonis (Lab)
My Lords, as the Minister who created the East Coast company, I ask the Minister to join me in congratulating Karen Boswell and her fantastic staff at East Coast on providing a first-class public service since National Express left the public without any service on the east coast line five years ago. Can the Minister also confirm that, at 91%, East Coast has a record customer satisfaction rating for that franchise since its creation, and that the East Coast is also the most popular franchise long-distance operator in the country at present? Would she regard it as a failure if the new private operator did not equal or exceed those performance ratings in a year’s time?
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I am absolutely delighted to join in the accolades for the staff at the door—they have done an outstanding job and we have always applauded them for it. As they transfer to the new company, I am sure that they will continue to do an outstanding job. They will be offered new training opportunities and new opportunities to develop professionally, which will be extremely exciting. Therefore I am delighted to congratulate them. I am also delighted that the new franchise offers the kind of investment that we want to see, improving service in so many ways, improving the existing rolling stock and bringing on new rolling stock, additional seats and new services—all those kinds of things. We absolutely need improvements in ticketing as well, which is important because of the many people who use the east coast line.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, I echo my noble friend’s thanks to the current operators. However, the people of Lincoln will be delighted to have a reasonable service. I will take this opportunity to invite all Members of this House to visit Lincoln during 2015 when we celebrate the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta, and when Britain’s least-known great historic city will be available for a day trip from London.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I was very sure that my noble friend Lord Cormack would be delighted with this announcement.
Lord Kinnock (Lab)
Since the Minister puts emphasis on excellence of service, absolutely rightly, and since there has been acknowledgement of the great success of the publicly owned service on the east coast, which rose from the ashes of the failure in the private sector, can she tell us why that excellent service and company was not allowed to bid on the fair and equal basis of all other bidders for this franchise? Is it not conceivable that against the background of that success, it, too, could have made the commitment to investment and to the enlargement and improvement of services that is now on offer from the company that has been successful? What ideological barrier—because it could not have been a practical one—could have prevented it making a bid?
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, there are enormous practical barriers relating to the basis on which funding is provided to the public service operator differing from that available to the private operators in the bid. It is crucial to ensure that we get the best ideas, innovation and investment in the service for the people who are going to use the east coast and that is exactly what this franchise delivers.
Lord Shipley (LD)
My Lords, I welcome the Minister’s announcement. It is the right decision. It delivers more services, greater investment, more trains and new routes. In addition, the trains for destinations on the east coast main line will be built in the north-east at Newton Aycliffe. The staff of East Coast do a magnificent job. Can the Minister confirm that they will all be guaranteed their jobs on current terms and conditions of service?
Baroness Kramer
The way in which this franchise has been set up is a sale of shares. All staff will remain on their existing contracts. They will continue effectively to be employed by the same employer. Whatever those terms are will continue. It is important to notice the ambitions in this franchise to improve training and opportunities for staff. Virgin has been clear that, with new services, it is going to need to train and hire new drivers and new on-board staff. There are no plans to close ticketing, although much friendlier services will be opened up.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)
My Lords, I return to the question from my noble friend Lord Adonis about performance. What will be done to examine the performance of the new franchisee against that of the previous holder over the coming 12 months and the next five years?
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, we hold all our companies to a very high standard of performance. They continue to be rigorously observed. Virgin will take on great challenges, bringing on new services and rolling stock. These will offer a great deal to passengers and we will expect a high performance from them. The noble Lord will be aware that, under the new franchising regime, the quality of output is a very important part of deciding where to award the franchise. It is no longer just on the cheapest.
Transport: Women’s Safety
Baroness Kramer Excerpts(9 years, 5 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Kramer) (LD)
My Lords, we work on a number of fronts to improve safety and security for all passengers and staff. In particular, the Government are supporting a British Transport Police-led academic literature and tactical review on reducing sexual offending and improving perceptions of safety on transport. This research will be delivered for February 2015 and will support an international expert session to debate the findings.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Is she aware of a study recently done in the UK and Canada that found that,
“women passengers generally prefer staffing to technological solutions and are very skeptical of the tendency of”—
transport operators—
“to replace staff from trains or buses with automated machines”.
Will she encourage operators to have more staff and fewer machines and CCTV and to recruit more women to the front line, which women also prefer in many instances?
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I completely agree with recruiting women to the front line. It is also important to have a staff presence where that is feasible. I am very encouraged, for example, by Transport for London’s commitment to take staff out of the ticket offices and put them out on the platforms and places where the passengers are. However, if we were to man every station at all hours at all times, we would unfortunately have to close stations because of the inherent cost.
Baroness Scott of Needham Market (LD)
Does the Minister share my concerns about the cycle rickshaws or pedicabs that operate in parts of central London? Unlicensed, the drivers are not required to be trained or insured; nor do they undergo CRB checks. Do the Government intend to take up the recommendation of the Law Commission and create local authority licensing for them?
Baroness Kramer
My noble friend is absolutely right: the Law Commission has provided some instructive direction on this. We received the Law Commission’s report in May. We will be following up on that and providing our response shortly. As she knows, the situation on licensing is somewhat different in London from elsewhere.
Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)
My Lords, why are the Government pressing ahead with Clause 12 of the Deregulation Bill? It supposedly frees us from red tape but actually reduces the safety checks on minicabs. Will the Minister review the Government’s approach—there is still time in the legislation—in the light of the recent case reported by the Daily Mail this weekend of a young woman who was taken from Leeds to Bradford where she was attacked and raped? Will the Minister accept that this is not just a triviality about red tape; it is about reducing the chances of gang rape? The criminals involved got sentences totalling 68 years.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Davies, knows, even under the deregulated mechanisms, whenever a taxi or private car licence is issued there will be a CRB check every three years. I have also written to all the authorities to remind them that they should be working with their local police so that wherever there is an accusation or a crime they are immediately informed and can take appropriate action—and I do not just mean in a taxi cab, but where someone is accused.
Lord Borwick (Con)
My Lords, I first declare an interest in the register that my wife is a Deputy Mayor of London and a member of the GLA. Will the Minister encourage the London Tube unions to allow Tube drivers who are not needed to drive the new automatic trains to walk along the carriages in the evening to improve the safety of women passengers rather than sitting in their cabins with nothing to do except open the doors?
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I hope that all staff are totally aware of the priority that we must give safety for passengers. In any situation where it is safe, I would encourage staff to use an opportunity to make sure that safety is enhanced.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab)
My Lords, would the Minister care to expand a little on her reply to my noble friend Lord Davies about the deregulation proposals? How can people be assured of safety without reference to anyone? Someone who has a minicab licence in place A can go to place B. It is not a safety or security issue. Will she please get the Government to reconsider their policy on this? I declare an interest in that the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, and I were involved in getting licensing for minicabs, and this—to mix a metaphor—drives a coach and horses through that.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, the licensing of minicabs absolutely remains in place. It means that an operator can call a cab not just from within their own fleet but from a neighbouring area. That also has to be a licensed cab driver. The operator remains responsible for the journey.
Infrastructure Bill [HL]
Baroness Kramer Excerpts(9 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Kramer
“General duties of a strategic highways company
(1) A strategic highways company must, in exercising its functions, co-operate in so far as reasonably practicable with other persons exercising functions which relate to—
(a) highways, or(b) planning.(2) A strategic highways company must also, in exercising its functions, have regard to the effect of the exercise of those functions on—
(a) the environment, and(b) the safety of users of highways.”
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Kramer) (LD)
My Lords, I agreed on Report to come back with amendments on two aspects over which noble Lords had concerns. I tabled Amendment 1 in recognition of noble Lords’ preference for the strategic highways company’s duties to be stated in legislation. It places a duty on the company in relation to the environment, safety and co-operation, noble Lords having expressed the strongest concern that that should be made clear. We have already made considerable change in taking on board concerns that were raised in Committee and on Report. It is the Government who must set broad policy on the environment and road safety and noble Lords will be aware that we have already amended the Bill to include an obligation on the Government to have regard to the environment and safety of users of the highway when setting or varying the road investment strategy. We are now taking this further by placing a duty on the company to consider those matters, meaning that the company itself is obliged to consider the impact of its operations on environment and safety.
Moreover, your Lordships will know that we have made changes to the powers of the monitor—the ORR—to hold the company to account and to measure and report on the company’s performance and whether it is meeting its duties, including on the environment and safety. I remind your Lordships that, in parallel with these high-level duties, we are using statutory directions and guidance from the Secretary of State to steer the company in the way it exercises its functions. We have extensively redrafted these prior to Report to reflect your Lordships’ concerns and these same issues are covered in great detail there.
In addition, your Lordships will note that we have also done even more than relying on statutory direction or guidance to ensure that the company co-operates. It now has a clear duty to co-operate in the areas of highways and planning with local authorities, devolved Governments, operational partners—such as the police and emergency services—other transport operators, and other bodies with a significant stake in the long-term development of the network.
I tabled Amendment 16 in recognition of your Lordships’ concern that there may be more than one strategic highways company provided for in Part 1 of the Bill. I have explained to the House that the Government have no plans to create more than one company and that the Highways Agency—in its new status as a government-owned company—will be the only company appointed when we bring these provisions into force. I recognise that further reassurance is needed on this point and therefore propose an amendment requiring parliamentary approval if the Secretary of State wishes to make an appointment order under Clause 1 which involves moving away from a single company structure. This strikes a balance in providing the flexibility for future Governments to move to a different structure—for example, a regional structure—should it be needed or desired, without the need for further primary legislation on the point, while meeting your Lordships’ desire for further discussion and approval by Parliament on the detail of how a multiple company structure would work in practice before allowing it to proceed. I hope that this provides a sensible compromise between your Lordships’ concerns and our desire to maintain a potentially useful option for the future, and for this reason.
In summary, I hope your Lordships recognise the effort we have made to ensure that there can be no doubt about what responsibilities the company has or how it will be held to account and that we have advanced considerable changes to meet the views expressed in this House. I beg to move.
Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful for these amendments, which certainly improve the Bill. I congratulate the Minister on the way she has conducted herself at the various stages of the Bill and on bringing forward these amendments in response to the arguments put forward in Committee. Those arguments were put forward particularly forcefully by my noble friends Lord Whitty, Lord Faulkner and Lord Berkeley. As the Minister will know, we started off with a great many reservations about the nature of the Bill and we are very pleased that the Government have gone some of the way towards making it slightly more difficult for multiple strategic highways companies to be set up. Amendment 16 ensures that Parliament will have a say on this, which is very much to be welcomed. I particularly appreciate Amendment 1, which ensures that the strategic highways company has regard to the environment and to the safety of users of the highways. These were issues about which we were very concerned on the Opposition Benches and we are pleased that the Minister has seen fit to propose amendments to the Bill as it then was.
However, it is still the case—as I am going to speak only once I hope the Minister will forgive me for moving a little further on—that there are questions which the Government have not adequately considered. An example is the needs of local roads in dealing with the challenges of huge numbers of potholes and the projected increase in traffic. The fact is that it is not the strategic system which creates the majority of problems for road users but local roads. The same applies to safety, where the Government have presided over a large reduction in road safety budgets and further action may be required. Among others, I obviously mention the issue of cyclists. That may seem marginal in a Bill that is predominantly concerned with strategic highways but, if one is talking about safety, one has to look at the growing use of cycles on our roads. That is greatly to be welcomed in many respects—provided that cyclists obey the law, I hasten to add—but we must also ensure that we do not get the kind of significant increase in cycling accidents that we have seen in recent years.
Baroness Kramer
Baroness Kramer
I shall speak also to Amendments 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 10 and 12. Maximising the release of surplus public sector land is critical to supporting the Government’s ambitions to reduce the deficit, increase the number of houses being built and help to drive economic growth.
The new public sector land programme from 2015-16 will mean transferring a significant amount of surplus and developable land from government bodies to the Homes and Communities Agency and, in London, to the Greater London Authority. Disused government land can and does already transfer to the Homes and Communities Agency but the process is often more bureaucratic than is necessary. Clause 26 is about simply increasing the rate of delivery and efficiency by streamlining what essentially is an internal government procedure.
As I believe the House now largely accepts, the intention behind Clause 26 is not and has never been to sell off the nation’s forests. In recognition, however, of the strength of the House’s concern about the future security of the public forest estate, my noble friend Lord Ahmad committed on Report to table an amendment to make it clear in law that the public forest estate will not transfer to the HCA. The amendment we have tabled will prevent transfer of the public forest estate to both the Homes and Communities Agency and the Greater London Authority.
We have gone further than the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall. Our amendment additionally seeks to address an oversight we have now identified in the original Housing and Regeneration Act 2008, which was passed under the previous Government. Section 51 of that Act makes it possible for land owned by central government to transfer directly to the HCA. The public forest estate is, of course, owned by central government and not—as we have repeatedly made clear when asked about these clauses—by an arm’s-length body. Needless to say, since the Labour Government introduced powers to transfer the public forest estate to the HCA six years ago, we have not used them. I am sure the fact that the legislation allowed this was an oversight rather than intentional, so we are now amending the 2008 Act to prevent any transfers under these existing powers. This now covers any transfers from a government department to the HCA where the land is part of the public forest estate.
I also make it clear that our amendment already covers the contingency that the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, seek to address. Our amendment will prevent the transfer of any land that is held by the Secretary of State and has been acquired, or is treated as having been acquired, under Section 39 of the Forestry Act 1967. This definition, therefore, covers all land that is under the management of the forestry commissioners at any given time, as well as land that is not being used for afforestation or purposes connected with forestry. I trust that this amendment will provide the comfort that noble Lords have sought on this issue.
In the same debate on Report, the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, raised a query about the potential scope of this clause, asking whether the definition of “public bodies” is too broad for the stated aims of the clause and whether it could, for example, allow for the transfer of land owned by charities. The noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, has written to the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, to set out why we think this clause is not likely to extend to the transfer of land from charities. However, for the avoidance of any doubt, we wish to make it clear in the Bill that transfers to the HCA or GLA using this power may happen only with the consent of the transferring body. I trust that this will allay any concerns that there would be any potential for a future Government to misuse this power. I beg to move.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)
My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 5, 7, 11, 13 and 14. I thank the Minister for coming back with the government amendments. I know that campaigners who have fought to protect our forests are also pleased that the Government have responded to their concerns. I am also grateful to the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, and their officials for the work they have put into ensuring that the exemption of the public forest estate from the Infrastructure Bill is in the Bill. However, while I accept what the Minister is saying about an oversight, her line of argument appears contradictory to statements at previous stages of the Bill when it was said that transfers of the PFE under this legislation could not happen. However, that is history.
I have tabled amendments to the government amendments with one aim—to make sure that the entire public forest is given the protection that noble Lords and campaigners have asked for throughout the passage of the Bill. However, I am still concerned about forest waste. Forest waste—in the forest that I know best, the Forest of Dean—is usually taken to mean land within or on the margins of the forest, not planted or used for forestry purposes. Forest waste is of great value in terms of biodiversity, ecology, amenity and recreation. Within the Forest of Dean there are a number of gales—shallow workings mined by free miners. These mines are clearly not used for afforestation or in connection with forestry, but they are a central part of the history and character of the Forest of Dean.
I am concerned that this forest waste may not be included and there could be some ambiguity as to whether it is suitable for afforestation or purposes connected with forestry. My disquiet is principally due to the part in brackets in Amendment 12 that states:
“(power to acquire land which is suitable for afforestation or purposes connected with forestry)”.
That does not include,
“together with any other land which must necessarily be acquired therewith”,
which is in Section 39(1) of the Forestry Act. I would be grateful for clarification from the Minister on that point. Will she confirm that forest waste is exempted from the Infrastructure Bill? In which case, I hope that she will accept my amendment as confirmation that this is the case.
Once again, this reflects the key message that arose repeatedly in our debate on Report on the need for the Government to legislate through a forestry Bill to protect the public forest estate. As the Woodland Trust said in its briefing ahead of Third Reading, for which I am grateful:
“We hope that the Third Reading debate, any subsequent further amendment—and scrutiny in the Commons—will ensure that protection is as strong as possible. Whatever the outcome of the Bill’s passage, however, it has to be said that this is a row of the Government’s own making through not bringing forward a Forestry Bill as promised. Indeed, this assurance within the Infrastructure Bill cannot be deemed a substitute for the bringing forward of legislation for the Public Forest Estate; a specific Forestry Bill is still needed to settle the future of the PFE and for the avoidance of any future doubt or confusion as to its status. We want to see that legislation brought forward at the earliest opportunity after the election”.
I strongly echo those sentiments. Again, I thank the Minister, but I also pay tribute to the campaigners, particularly those from HOOF who, through their dedication, care and passionate love of the forest, have fought time and again to ensure that it is protected for future generations.
Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)
I congratulate the Minister on listening to the points that a lot of us in this House made. As a rider to what has been said, a very important part of forestry—speaking as someone who has some—are those strips of land where you can extract timber to cut it up and prepare it to go to the timber mill or wherever it is going. This area that we talk of as waste is vital. To people in the country, it is not unlike those elements that you get at the sides of fields that are often put to set-aside or for biodiversity. The amendment makes a very good point and I am sure that the Minister will reassure us on it.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I think that we are all at the same place on this. My argument against the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, is that they are unnecessary, because the issue is entirely covered in the language that I hope we will be bringing into the Bill through amendment, if your Lordships agree. The amendments prevent the transfer of any land held by the Secretary of State that has been acquired—remember, this is government-owned land—or is treated as having been acquired under Section 39 of the Forestry Act 1967. As I said earlier, that covers all land that is under the management of the forestry commissioners at any given time—whether by freehold or leasehold—and includes any land that is not being used for afforestation but is still under the management of the forestry commissioners or is not being used for purposes connected with forestry.
The provision is widely drawn. Not only does it include forest waste, it includes the kind of ancillary facilities that many noble Lords have pointed out are necessary. Indeed, there is not even a necessary test: it simply has to be under the management of the Forestry Commissioners. I am sure that that is exactly what the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, and the various campaigners were attempting to achieve.
We think that we have done this rather effectively because one of the challenges of writing legislation is to make sure that we do not include another unintended loophole. We think that this approach is rather effective. I hope that noble Lords will understand why I will resist the amendment because I believe that its principle is well incorporated into the amendments that we introduced.
This may be the last time that I have the opportunity to speak in the House on this phase of the Bill before it goes to the other place. The last group of amendments will be led from the Government’s perspective by my noble friend Lady Verma. I want to say that, in a sense, this last discussion reflects what has been an extraordinary quality of this Bill, for which I thank the whole House. So many Members of the House have taken responsibility for raising issues of concern, strengthening the Bill, looking for ways to make it more effective and recognising the underlying purpose and intent. The collaborative attitude of so many Members of this House—I include the Opposition in that—has led us to a Bill that will serve its purpose even better than the Bill that we originally drafted.
At the same time, I want to thank the most extraordinary Bill team who have facilitated and made all of that possible, and the staff from the many departments that have contributed to the Bill. They have shown an exemplary service in making sure the legislation reflects the genuine intent of this House. I thank the House for allowing me to proceed with this as well. The last group of amendments will be led by my noble friend Lady Verma.
Baroness Kramer
“(4A) The Secretary of State may not make a scheme under this section unless the specified public body to which the scheme relates has consented to its provisions.”
Baroness Kramer
“(4B) A scheme under this section may not make provision in relation to land which is held by the Secretary of State and was acquired, or is treated as having been acquired, under section 39 of the Forestry Act 1967 (power to acquire land which is suitable for afforestation or purposes connected with forestry).”
Baroness Kramer
“(2A) In section 51 (property etc transfers) after subsection (3) insert—
“(3A) A scheme under this section may not make provision in relation to land which is held by the Secretary of State and was acquired, or is treated as having been acquired, under section 39 of the Forestry Act 1967 (power to acquire land which is suitable for afforestation or purposes connected with forestry).””
Baroness Kramer
Baroness Kramer
“(3B) A scheme under this section may not make provision in relation to land which is held by the Secretary of State and was acquired, or is treated as having been acquired, under section 39 of the Forestry Act 1967 (power to acquire land which is suitable for afforestation or purposes connected with forestry).”
Baroness Kramer
“(5A) In section 408 (transfers of property, rights or liabilities to the Greater London Authority etc) after subsection (8) insert—
“(8A) An order under subsection (1) above may not make provision in relation to land which is held by the Secretary of State and was acquired, or is treated as having been acquired, under section 39 of the Forestry Act 1967 (power to acquire land which is suitable for afforestation or purposes connected with forestry).”
(5B) In section 409 (transfer schemes for transfers to the Greater London Authority etc) after subsection (8) insert—
“(8A) A scheme under subsection (1) or (2) above may not make provision in relation to land which is held by the Secretary of State and was acquired, or is treated as having been acquired, under section 39 of the Forestry Act 1967 (power to acquire land which is suitable for afforestation or purposes connected with forestry).””
Baroness Kramer
“(1A) A statutory instrument which contains an order under section 1—
(a) appointing a strategic highways company for an area other than the whole of England, and(b) which is the first exercise of the power in respect of such an area,may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.(1B) A statutory instrument which contains an order under section 1—
(a) appointing a strategic highways company for an area other than the whole of England, and(b) which is a subsequent exercise of the power in respect of such an area,is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.”
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I owe the most extraordinary thanks to two of the most brilliant colleagues, the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, and the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad. I also regret the fact that, sadly, the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, may not be here again on another Bill. We shall desperately miss him. I beg to move the privilege amendment.
Infrastructure Bill [HL]
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Infrastructure Bill [HL]
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Baroness Kramer
“(4) Sub-paragraphs (5) and (6) apply to the function of the Lord Chancellor under section 14(1) of the Local Land Charges Act 1975 as amended by this paragraph so far as it relates to the power to make rules for prescribing fees and the manner of payment of fees (“the new function”).
(5) The new function is to be treated as having been transferred to the Welsh Ministers by—
(a) the National Assembly for Wales (Transfer of Functions) Order 2004 (S.I. 2004/3044), and (b) Schedule 11 to the Government of Wales Act 2006, in the same way as the equivalent function of the Lord Chancellor under that section as it had effect apart from this paragraph (“the old function”).(6) A provision made by that Order or that Act in respect of the old function continues to apply to the new function.”
Airports: London
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Lord Spicer
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their policy on the development of London’s airports.
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Kramer) (LD)
In Our Programme for Government, the coalition announced the cancellation of plans for a third runway at Heathrow, and the refusal of permission for additional runways at Stansted and Gatwick. However, we recognise the need for a long-term airport capacity solution to ensure continuing international competitiveness in the coming decades. Therefore, Sir Howard Davies was asked to chair the independent Airports Commission, which will submit its final report in summer 2015.
Lord Spicer (Con)
My Lords, does the Liberal Democrat policy not to build runways at London’s airports, whatever the circumstances, drive a coach and horses through the policy that my noble friend the Minister has just announced?
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, it is absolutely important that as a Minister in the Department for Transport I make sure that the commission is always recognised as having full integrity and independence. Therefore, even when pressed with this question at my own party conference, I have always refused to give any answer other than that the Government will comment after the final report is submitted in 2015.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)
My Lords, in view of the improbability of any new runway capacity being constructed in the south-east during the lifetime of most Members of your Lordships’ House, does the Minister not agree that this is the time to look very seriously at the role of regional airports such as Birmingham, which will be only 47 minutes from central London by High Speed 2?
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I think that under all circumstances it is important to look at the potential for regional airports, Birmingham being one. There are numerous others across the country with ambitions.
Lord Soley (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister accept that her position has moved significantly? I welcome that, but does she appreciate the importance of airports to Britain’s success in global markets? If she does, can she please accept that we ought to give at least as much attention to airports throughout the UK as we do to the rest of the transport infrastructure, most notably rail and road? We have to put airports up there or we will not succeed.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, working from my transport brief, we look frequently at connectivity for airports and recognise that all transport has an important role to play in economic growth.
Lord Swinfen (Con)
My Lords, what consideration is being given to the expansion of Manston Airport, which has good rail and road communications with London and could easily mop up a lot of the unemployment on the Isle of Thanet?
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I have to confess a lack of knowledge on that question, and I will gladly write to your Lordships.
Lord Grocott (Lab)
My Lords, in view of the Minister’s answers in respect of London airports, can she tell the House whether she is more or less happy in her work in the Department for Transport than her Liberal Democrat colleague Norman Baker is in the Home Office?
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I love my time in the Department for Transport, and I can say that it is one of the most collegiate places in which I have worked.
Lord Sugar (Lab)
My Lords, I respectfully point out to the noble Baroness that she may not be aware that the current arrivals and departures procedures used by civil aviation mean that it matters not whether we have one extra runway at Heathrow or 10. The fact is that we cannot land enough aircraft at the moment. Will the noble Baroness inquire of the Davies commission whether it will review the standard arrivals and departures procedures and the adoption of GPS technology, which I know the CAA has just started to use, to allow further arrivals at airports?
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I will go back and ask my department to have conversations with the CAA so that I can give the noble Lord a more complete answer.
Baroness Tonge (Ind LD)
My Lords, my noble friend will remember that after Terminal 5 was approved, we were assured that there would be no further development at Heathrow Airport. I wonder if she can give us any insight into what will happen should a third runway be built at Heathrow Airport, and how much more development we shall see there?
Baroness Kramer
My noble friend knows intimately the history of airport development in the south-east. I am afraid that I can make no further comment until the final report comes from the Davies commission in the summer of 2015, at which point I will be delighted to comment.
Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)
My Lords, are the Government sustaining pressure on Sir Howard so that an incoming Labour Government will be able to consider the report immediately after the general election? Another easy question for the Minister: how much did the unrealistic and abortive idea of “Boris Island” cost?
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, Sir Howard Davies’ report will not be ready until the summer of 2015 and it is beyond my telepathic capabilities to anticipate its contents. I cannot answer for the Labour Party.
Lord Clinton-Davis (Lab)
Does the Minister agree that there is bound to be a substantial delay between the publication of the report and the building of a new runway? Meanwhile, the costs will inevitably rise, and British aviation will have to pay those costs, among others. Does the Minister agree with that?
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I am sure that everybody would want a major decision such as whether to build a new runway to be made with the best information available. It is important in those circumstances to make sure that the issue has been fully explored. That may be called delay by some. I think that others would say that it helps to inform appropriate decision-making.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall
My Lords—third time lucky. May I ask the noble Baroness whether she agrees that one of the things that have bedevilled this issue over the past two decades has been delay? Does she believe that when the Davies report is finally published, it will be implemented? I declare an interest as a supporter of the Stop Stansted Expansion campaign. If she looks at that example, she will see the restorative effect of lifting the blight on an airport and the countryside coming back to life.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, Sir Howard Davies identified that there was no immediate capacity requirement; he is looking to 2030. After the report is issued we will all have to look at its contents and then make our decisions on how we will respond.
Infrastructure Bill [HL]
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Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)
My Lords, I can keep my own contribution relatively brief because my noble friends Lord Whitty and Lord Berkeley have presented the case with great clarity. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, for pointing out that we are dealing today with a position that is only six days old—the latest change from the Government to this crucial part of the proposals in the Bill. That is to say nothing of the fact that the fracking aspect of the Bill came months after we had considered it in Committee, which was then held up until the Government had concluded their consultation in the summer. So this is not a Bill distinguished by forward planning from the Government, or by a clear rationale of what they are about. However, I suppose I should thank them for having another shot at improving the Bill.
We are pleased to see changes reflective of the representations made in Committee from this side of the House, but we are no clearer on why delivering long-term certainty for roads investment requires a top-down reorganisation of the Highways Agency. The Cook report told us that it is stop-start funding problems that are leading to inefficiencies of between 15% and 20%. Is there any real evidence proving that changing the legal structure of the Highways Agency will, in itself, improve efficiency? Perhaps top-down reorganisation is the metier of this Government in challenging areas. The Minister will be aware of the strength of the concern on our side that this looks like the first step to privatisation. We continue to have that anxiety. Why is the section on the company’s licence for commercial activity and charging for services still unfinished?
We are concerned about the cost implications. There is still no clarity on whether the SHC will be able to reclaim VAT in the same way that the Highways Agency does at present. In Committee, the Minister said that the SHC would not be required to pay VAT, which is exactly the case with the Highways Agency now. That soon cleared up the issue. However, it did not clear up the issue at the other end, because the Minister in the Treasury, David Gauke, in answer to a Question from my honourable friend in the other place, Richard Burden MP, said:
“New bodies are not automatically covered by the … provisions. However, the Department for Transport and HM Treasury are considering this issue”.
HMT is quite important, here, with regard to revenue and dispensations to other departments. It does not seem to be as clear on the matter as the Department for Transport is maintaining that it is. If the new strategic highways authority is no longer able to recover VAT in the same way, that could lead to losses of a considerable amount—as much as £400 million annually. That would be £4 billion over 10 years, which would dwarf the figure of efficiency gains of £2.6 billion that it is proposed will come from the legislation. If the VAT issue is not resolved, therefore, the justification for this reorganisation is even less substantiated.
Turning to Amendment 4, which is in my name, the Minister used two arguments in Committee to reject our attempts to clarify whether the Government envision having more than one company. One argument was that this is only standard legal drafting and there should be no cause for concern. The Minister went on to say that it might be necessary if one wanted a more regional structure for the equivalent of the strategic highways company. Can she not confirm that the Highways Agency is already structured regionally? There appears to be confused thinking within the Government about how many companies there will be, which is why many are concerned that the Government are not being entirely open about their plans for the future.
It is clear that our main reservations about the major government proposal in the Bill have not been assuaged. As my noble friends have indicated, there are other questions, too, to which the Minister needs to respond to convince us that this proposal is acceptable.
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Kramer)
My Lords, this is obviously a very wide and long group of amendments, which cover quite a range of issues. I do not want to put words in noble Lords’ mouths. but I think that we have progressed to the point at which at least we have a common goal in terms of setting up a structure that will ensure certainty of funding for highways in the way that we have managed to enjoy, and benefited from, with the railways.
Clause 1 allows the Secretary of State to appoint a strategic highways company, thereby conferring duties and functions on it to operate as a highway authority. If we were to drop this clause—there is a stand part debate in this group of amendments—it would be a fundamental change to the model and we would lose many of the key benefits of certainty over funding and plans which, as we have heard today, has been widely supported.
Our aim is to create a different model to deliver road infrastructure. Crucial to this is having a legal body separate from government responsible for our strategic road network and delivering a road investment strategy in the most cost-effective way. We consider the most effective model is a company created under the Companies Act 2006. Let me explain the rationale. We have decades of experience of the fact that the current arrangements—I point this out to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, who will remember the history of the department—have not encouraged a long-term approach to planning infrastructure or provided secure funding. Stop-start has indeed been a definition of a large part of their history and has come with high costs in terms of the efficiency and quality of our infrastructure. For long-term funding certainty and planning, it is crucial for the Secretary of State to be able to have a transparent and binding relationship with a separate legal entity. If the delivery body were to remain the Highways Agency and remain within the DfT, inevitably it would be easy to change funding and plans.
Setting up a strategic highways company as a new company operating under company law with a well established governance and financial framework will reinforce the clarity and robustness of the relationship. We have seen from international experience, for example in the Netherlands and Sweden, that where road delivery bodies have been given long-term funding certainty and a more independent relationship setting out requirements, large efficiency savings have been possible. A company would be constrained to one that is limited by shares and wholly owned by the Secretary of State, ensuring that any company is 100% owned by the Government and remains in the public sector. We have not only no intent but no interest in turning this into a privatisation. That is not part of our agenda and does not achieve the goals that we want.
Let me again take this opportunity to explain that we have no plans to appoint more than one company. We have already made clear that the Highways Agency, in its new legal status as a Government-owned company, will be the only company appointed. The use of plural “companies” in legislation was to allow flexibility for further companies in the future, including how companies would work together: and that is what Amendment 11 seeks to remove. Subsequent provisions in the Bill which refer to a company could therefore refer only to the strategic highways company or to each such company.
We are doing this in part because we recognise that future Governments may want flexibility to create more companies: for example, to give more accountability, to allow a company to look after a specific cluster of roads or area of roads or to promote comparisons and efficiency. Those are not our goals, but they might be those of a future Government. Reference to more than one company would prevent future Governments making change as needed. However, it is not something that we are seeking, so if noble Lords feel strongly on this issue and do not want to give that flexibility to future Governments—even though it is standard in virtually every piece of legislation that this House has seen referring to “companies” and “company” because, as I explained, in law the singular is the plural and the plural is the singular—I could offer a compromise that might reassure noble Lords.
I would be very happy to return at Third Reading with an amendment that would require any Government to seek parliamentary approval to establish additional companies beyond the initial one. I wonder whether this would satisfy noble Lords. It would certainly meet our intent. We see no future Government related to us who would wish to run this in a different way, and this would allow Parliament to have the voice that perhaps noble Lords are seeking.
Turning to the requirement for a licensing regime, we have been and are clear that we do not want to privatise the strategic highway network. Therefore, given that licensing regimes in the traditional sense, which is reflected in quite a number of these amendments, apply to commercial operators, we have been trying to avoid precisely that kind of licence. I find it strange that your Lordships are now pressing for amendments that follow that commercial model. Since we do not intend to privatise, the commercial model is not relevant to our proposals for this company.
In sectors such as rail, aviation, energy and water, the licence is a means of access to an economic activity where there are potentially multiple operators in a commercial market that may seek to apply. Our strategic highways company is funded by government, with no option for a separate revenue income. All its powers and duties to operate as a highways authority already exist in legislation and it is by virtue of their appointment that these powers are switched on.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Ind Lab)
My Lords, I have intervened on this Bill only once, and I probably will not do so again, but I support the amendment. I do so as someone who, first, has worked on the railways—a very long time ago, I have to say: in the late 1940s, when I worked for the Southern Railway. I became not expert but knowledgeable about lock and block signalling, which has now of course been overtaken by electronic signalling.
I also represented Swindon, which was a great railway town. In those days, I spent most of my time trying to save the railway workshops, which were highly efficient and had a good history, from being closed by British Rail. When we talk about public ownership, people appear to believe that we want to go back to British Rail. There are all sorts of ways in which you can introduce public ownership, which have been mentioned. As the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, and others have pointed out, we allow foreign nationalised industries to take over our industries, but we will not allow our public services to take them over.
I was very interested to listen to the Chancellor of the Exchequer talking about city regions. There is every reason why, if we are to have city regions, we should allow them, or conglomerates of city regions, to be able to bid for a rail franchise. After all, they are there to serve their electors and probably know better than any railway company what their electors want. Local government has a great history of providing public services. Our water services would not be what they are but for local government and the power given to it under the Local Government Act 1888.
That applies to transport as well. So many local authorities have a background in and knowledge of transport. Up and down the country they are providing high-quality local transport. These things really ought to be considered by the Government: there is room for public enterprise within the railways. The railways should be allowed to bid for franchises; it is not a question of undercutting but of providing decent services at reasonable cost and perhaps more cheaply than is provided by the private companies.
I was pleased to see this amendment on the Marshalled List. I well remember opposing, from those Benches—I do not know whether I was doing so from the Front Bench at the time—the privatisation of the railways as a result, of course, of a European directive, which said that the infrastructure should be separated from the operation of the services themselves. If this simple and easy amendment is put to the vote, I hope that the Minister will accept it. It does not commit the Government to anything other than considering giving public authorities the opportunity to think about franchises in what, after all, are our railway services.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, the temptation is to get into a major discussion about nationalisation of industries, but I shall try to resist and focus on railways and this amendment.
I spend a lot of my time out on the road, talking with the industry at rail conferences and also with users. Our railway is a great success. Virtually every event to which I go now deals with the challenge of a successful railway. Your Lordships will know many of the figures. We have doubled the number of passengers since privatisation. Even outside London over the past few months we have seen passenger numbers going up by something between 9% and 11%. People really want to use the railways. I talk with my continental colleagues who say that they do not have any idea how we do it. They ask how we manage to run so many trains, with such frequency, and engage with so many passengers and build the kind of ridership that we have. They certainly are not finding the same kind of thing where they are. There is a deep admiration of how we run our trains.
There is much more to do. We are catching up with at least of couple of generations of serious underinvestment in the railways, and not just in new lines anywhere north of London—that has been a major absence—as well as with upgrading the railways. We are dealing with a huge challenge at the same time that we have passengers coming on to the lines. To ignore the fact that the privatisation process and the franchises that have come out of that have played a huge part is frankly to fail to recognise what this has contributed.
In terms of the number of people who are being carried on the quantity of trains that we are running, and the range of services that we are offering, we have a model that has been delivering what our ancestors would only have dreamt of. But there is so much more ambition now to go way beyond that. We have done a lot of it by tapping into private sector know-how. We need even more of that as we go forward, because the challenges are increasing dramatically.
I would like to comment on the east coast line. I have great respect for all the people who have run the Directly Operated Railway. Their job is to come in and take over where there has been failure and to stabilise and deliver. They have done a fantastic job. However, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, that everyone must be conscious that part of the reason they have turned to the taxpayer is because we have not invested in the new equipment that is desperately needed on that line. New trains are coming and, as we are negotiating that, I do not want to say anything that could compromise that franchise. However, does the noble Lord think for one moment that we would come up with the figures that we have for that franchise if the franchising company had to pay for the new trains that are desperately needed on the east coast line?
The west coast line is in a different situation. One of the things about franchising is that franchises are not identical: every franchise is customised. If one looks at frequency of service, the newness of equipment and the whole series of features that shape each franchise, one will see that one franchise is in a position to return premiums whereas another will require subsidy. As I say, a franchise will vary depending on the relevant market conditions and whether its equipment and track have been upgraded. Franchises are not identical “cookie cutters”, as the Americans would say; they are customised. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, that I would be shocked if we were to run the east coast line at a standstill. The customers of that line need an increased service and far better trains. That has to be part of the future.
Lord Adonis
The noble Baroness has to address the fundamental issue: why will she not allow a public operator even to bid against the private sector?
Baroness Kramer
I will address that point. However, I want to set the context for the discussion because sometimes there is a great deal of confusion around it.
Lord Bradshaw
I am sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness but the new rolling stock that is to be included in the east coast franchise is something that every bidder will have to take into account in the bid that they make. If passengers do not think that the rolling stock, which has been virtually designed in Marsham Street, is set at a reasonable price, that will indicate that a bad decision was made over here. There is no doubt whatever that if the present east coast line company runs the franchise with the new trains its returns will go up, but perhaps by only as much as the extra trains will cost. The extra trains are a burden. It is a fallacy to say that the present east coast operator would be worse than any other because the £600 million has not been invested in the track and many other operators have not invested in new rolling stock. They wait for the rolling stock companies to do it and consider that investment in the track and stations is a matter for Network Rail. Therefore, I think that the Minister’s argument is a bit faulty.
Baroness Kramer
I am sorry but, as the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, will know, these things will be built into the charges. Of course, the addition of new equipment completely changes the profile as it has to be paid for and that money comes from only two places—the fare box or the taxpayer. As I say, that completely changes the profile and I think that many noble Lords will be aware of that reality.
As regards franchising, I agree that the demands we are placing on franchisees to upgrade equipment are far more significant than has been the case in the past. I think the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, said that customer service was not rolled into the franchise. I can tell him that it is now and that a significant number of issues concern customer service. We are building on that because the customer absolutely has to be at the centre of the railway industry. It is true that this has not been done historically and that franchises have been engineering-driven, but that is changing dramatically. The noble Lord will start to see the impact of that coming through with the new franchises.
We are also undertaking a complete technical upgrade as we move from an early 20th century railway to a fully 21st century railway. A digital electronic railway will make huge demands on franchise providers in all kinds of ways. This is a very exciting time. There was a question about British companies’ engagement in the railway. We have some of the most innovative companies now—I speak regularly to the supply chains—who are engaged in this cutting-edge research and cutting-edge supply, which will completely change the nature of the trains running on the track. We are coming much closer to engaging with aerospace technology and other areas. Do not think of the railways as an old, staid industry any more. It is a driving, cutting-edge industry, and that change has to come through for us to meet passengers’ demands. I could go on a great deal longer, but I will come back, because you can tell I am an enthusiast about getting these changes driven all the way through.
One of the questions is, “Why don’t we set up a company and let it bid against the others?”. Let us think about that process. If we are to have any other bidders, they have to know that there is a level playing field and that absolutely no advantage is given to the public bidder. This point was, I think, raised earlier. You may be able to set up enough Chinese walls for us to say that we believe this is being done with integrity, but we would have to convince every other bidder. Think about how the railways are financed. That makes it extremely difficult. Would we be providing government-sourced money to our own public company? Obviously, the private companies go out into the capital markets. Or would it be going out into the capital markets and therefore, in a sense, be as far distant from us as virtually any company that we already describe as being a franchisee?
We would have to be absolutely certain that our assumptions on profit, tax, cost and capital in no way advantaged the public body, or we would lose every other bidder on every bid. If we go back and think carefully about what we would have to set up, we would have to set up the company in order to do this. The salaries alone would, I think, be eye-watering.
Lord Adonis
I hate to point this out to the noble Baroness, but the company already exists. It is called East Coast.
Baroness Kramer
That company, as the noble Lord probably knows, will presumably be TUPE-ed—or not TUPE-ed, because it is a share sale. Essentially, that company will be absorbed into whatever is the new bidder on the east coast. Also, we have people running the company who can run it under its current circumstances. But take a look, if you are putting together a bidding group. The noble Lord will know how expensive it is to put together an effective bid team, particularly with those kinds of salaries. Let us, however, not just look at the salaries for putting together the kind of senior management you would need for an effective bid team, which are probably way beyond anything that we would consider paying. If we did, however, each bid would be a minimum of—what?—£10 million. That is probably about right for each individual bid. Fourteen franchises would be £140 million, without even the assurance of winning a single franchise. I simply point out that there are a lot of complexities in this matter that are not reasonably obvious. We had a system that was broken, we had two bids that did not work and we brought in a company that restored it. We are now going out with an effective franchise and we expect a very good bid. Two of the bidders are essentially British and one is not; we have a wide range.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Snape, that it seems that there is still a romance with the old British Rail, without recognising many of its underlying problems and the limited advantages that could be available under another scenario.
There is one other issue that is often raised. It is said that if we ran one company, we would have a comparator against which to look at the others. That takes us back my original point, which is that every franchise is so different that you cannot carry over from one into the other. If you doubt me on that, look at the pattern of bidders: specific companies that feel they can specialise in the needs of particular franchises bid on those. We do not find every bidder coming in on every franchise. They pick and choose the areas where they have particular knowledge and skills that apply to that franchise. Franchises are not generic and should not be viewed that way, so the comparators essentially do not work.
Lord Snape
I apologise for interrupting the Minister. Can she name any bidders for any franchises that are not British-owned bus companies or foreign-owned railways?
Baroness Kramer
I will just pick up on a point about “foreign-owned”. There is obviously scope for any country to decide that it is going to own an industry. We have certainly done that in the past: we have owned airports, steel companies and railways; you can go on through the list. We made a decision, as a country, that that could be done better by the private sector, but it is still entirely open to any country that it wants to own a series of businesses.
We have made a decision that that is not where we need to put our money. I have plenty of other places where I would much rather put the £140 million that I have just described than on the franchise bids alone, never mind all the overhead costs that would go with them. As I have said, this business, even when it is done well, is also a high-risk, thinly margined business. If one were to decide to go in for buying shares or into commercial ventures with taxpayers’ money, I suggest that one could choose many other businesses with higher returns, or other ways to spend the money. I would put money into services for the public rather than into owning shares in a company that would go out and compete with the private sector. That is the argument that I am making in all this.
We have a successful railway. It is delivering for the British people. We intend to place more and more demands on it. We have private sector companies that can deliver what we need, provided that we negotiate effectively and hard. It seems to me that that is where our energy has to go: delivering for the British people rather than being caught up in an idea of who owns what.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her considered and lengthy reply. She will have noticed that she was acting alone in the House, as there was not a supporting voice anywhere—expect that my noble friend Lord Snape, with his considerable knowledge of railways, asked a few questions and expressed anxieties about not returning to the days of nationalised railways, when losses were made and low investment was the order of the day. There is nothing in the amendment or in any proposal conceivable to the Opposition which suggests that.
We have had the illustration of two private companies failing on the east coast main line, and one successful directly operated railway under public auspices producing considerable degrees of success which match the achievements of any on other lines. All we seek is for the Government to think about the possibility of that continuing. That is all that the amendment involves: recognition of ready and conspicuous success under the formula and an eagerness to see that it should persist. It is only dogma on the other side that leads them to indicate that there are so many complexities about running a private railway that one could not anticipate the expertise existing anywhere in any state-operated organisation—except, perhaps, in the German, French and Dutch states, which make successful bids and operate.
I merely ask the House to recognise that this is a modest amendment to keep the ball in play for the huge success in recent events on the railway. The Minister has addressed herself to every issue except that success, which we want to confer. Accordingly, I beg leave to test the opinion of the House.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I have Amendment 10 in this group. Again, as in the previous debate, my noble friend Lord Berkeley has put his finger on another lacuna in the Bill. Nowhere does the Bill spell out the functions and duties of the proposed strategic highways company. There is a whole schedule, 26 pages long, which largely consists of adding,
“or a strategic highways company”,
but does not actually say what that company should do. I find this extraordinary and not consistent with earlier circumstances in which we have set up public bodies or corporations to do a particular job, some of which are still doing it, where there was clarity in the legislation as to those functions. Those functions have to be economic, social and environmental these days. The Government should at least consider making sure, at later stages, that the Bill spells out the central duties of the companies. I hope that the Minister will take that away.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, again we have a wide range of amendments in this group. I shall focus on the issues that have been raised by the noble Lords, Lord Berkeley and Lord Whitty. We derive from these amendments that they see advantage in the company being issued with a licence: we covered that discussion a few minutes ago. I want to be clear that safety and other duties are being transferred to the company by virtue of its appointment as the highways authority for the strategic road network. These, together with essential environmental duties in existing legislation, will apply to the company. I also make it clear that the new company will be bound by the network management duty in the Traffic Management Act 2004, a duty which would be difficult to perform without co-operating with other local highways authorities.
Sustainable travel, though, is a different kettle of fish. It is an issue of wider transport strategy and policy, which is a matter for the Secretary of State to determine. However, many issues raised in these amendments that may not currently be covered in legislation to the extent proposed—for example, sustainable development, engaging communities or conducting research and development—will be the subject of binding statutory directions and guidance, which is the long title that we have given the licence issued to the company by the Secretary of State. I am sure that noble Lords will have looked at the recently published drafts.
I have the advantage of a marked-up copy, so I can see how extensively all those issues have now been written into the licence, in very significant detail. For example, on the environment the licence holder must:
“Seek to minimise carbon emissions and other greenhouse gases from its operations; adapt to operate its network in a changing climate; and, where relevant, assist the Government in meeting its wider greenhouse gas emission reduction targets and climate change commitments”.
We can see, in each area, that there is very substantial language. On safety, there is language focusing in great detail on these issues, so that they are deeply embedded, as there is, in other places, on collaboration. So it is there in the licence, or, as we are calling it now, the statutory directions and guidance. To me, it is crucial that they are in that document because, of all the documents, it would be the living document that most impacted the company on a regular basis. We want to make sure that those issues are to the fore and centre, right in the eyeline of the new strategic highways company. Directions issued by the Government have legal force and, together with the independent scrutiny of the monitor, which is there to enforce, will ensure that the company is accountable for what it does.
In listening to your Lordships, I understand that there would be a measure of comfort in echoing some of these key issues in the Bill. To me, it is important that they are in the licence because that is where they will drive behaviour and the enforcement capacity is genuinely there. I can see an argument for making sure that these issues are being given the attention that noble Lords wish, particularly for public reassurance. Two stand out—road safety and the environment—as well as co-operation. I can therefore make a commitment to your Lordships that I could come back before Third Reading with an amendment that would impose those provisions as high-level duties on the company in respect of these fundamental matters. As I say, my personal view is that they are where they need to be to have effect but, if it will provide reassurance to the public in general and your Lordships in particular that they are being sufficiently recognised, this is the way in which to tackle them with a great deal more detail, direction and energy within the content of the statutory directions. We could work a way to put those three high-level duties into the Bill.
In this group are Amendments 22 and 24, which relate to setting the road investment strategy and removing subsection (6), which may provide an element of confusion. However, given that it has not been raised, I will not pursue the matter but would be glad to explain to anyone why we think that those amendments miss the point.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My noble friend has just said that the matter has not been raised. I have been looking through the licence and the Bill, and the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, made the point that there does not seem to be a positive statement that under the licence the strategic highways company must comply with the road investment strategy. Will she consider whether something of that sort could be specifically included? Such a provision may be there; maybe I have missed it, but I cannot see it in the licence.
Baroness Kramer
At this point, I cannot remember the exact location of each item, but I will go back. However, we now have the monitor there to enforce the RIS or the strategic highways company’s compliance with it, as well as with the contents of the draft licence or statutory guidance.
Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)
I very much support the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. The Minister is right; we have not spoken to Amendment 24, so I do not expect her to comment on it in great detail. However, I hope that she will indicate in her response to this group of amendments—it has been helpful thus far—that she will meet our point: that there is such great complexity about this interrelationship that things will not be rushed. It would be sad if, in pushing things hard to get the Bill on to the statute book and to be acted upon, we pre-empted in a rush what ought to be a long-term perspective on the road investment strategy. We expect the SHC very much to be involved in that new role.
Baroness Kramer
I now have a reply, thanks to that helpful intervention and the time associated with it. Clause 3(5) places a duty on the strategic highways company and the Secretary of State to comply with the RIS. So we have that covered. Our concern about removing subsection (6) of Clause 3 is that, without it, the Secretary of State could actually pick and choose when to set a strategy. Frankly, we do not want to give that scope to the Secretary of State—and I am sure that your Lordships do not either.
Your Lordships also propose that the first strategy be set in accordance with the process we have set out in Schedule 2. We have been clear that this time around we are following a compressed timetable. Indeed, we all want to have a strategy in place for day 1 of the company’s operations—but a company that does not yet exist cannot participate in the way that Schedule 2 envisages. If we were to wait until the passage of the Act, we would be in the position of forcing the company to operate without a strategy, delaying much-needed investment in the network. I hope your Lordships will not press that amendment. This is just to deal with the fact that we are pushing ahead with the strategy that I expect your Lordships will see very shortly. However, the assent to the Bill and the creation of the company will come afterwards so it would not be possible the first time around to pursue the proposals in that amendment.
Baroness Kramer
“Parliamentary Commissioner Act 1967 (c. 13)67A In Schedule 2 to the Parliamentary Commissioner Act 1967, at the appropriate place insert “A strategic highways company for the time being appointed under Part 1 of the Infrastructure Act 2014.””
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I pay tribute to the Government for having listened carefully to what was said in Committee, where pressure was exerted from this side of the House for greater clarity of the functions of the highway company. We are grateful for the progress that has been made in the indications from the Government that they accept some of these arguments. But Amendment 15, to which the Opposition are also committed, does not offend in any way in the manner that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, indicated. What it says is that the highways company shall be responsible for the road safety performance of the network. We are talking about the strategic network and it is essential that we recognise that we want enhanced performance over road safety, because in recent years there have been anxieties about the decline in safety for our fellow citizens on the roads.
The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, said that the same criteria as for railways were being applied. What is indicated in the amendment is that the Office of Rail Regulation will be concerned with the monitoring role, and that is where the overlap occurs. It is not contended on this side of the House, as he will recognise, that there could be any anticipation that the same degree of security could be achieved on roads as on a carefully regulated railway. We are very proud in this country of the excellent safety figures of the railway network, leaving aside level crossings, which, as we know, are a perennial problem for the railway. Regarding roads, it is clear that we want all the factors—a fact which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, enumerated—and we want enhanced performance in those areas. Clearly the strategic highways company has a very important role to play. That is why we support Amendment 15.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, on the previous grouping, I was pleased to make it clear that the Government have taken on board the thoughts of this House in putting, basically, the duties around road safety, the environment and co-operation in the Bill. While safety is obviously always at the forefront of our minds, it now seems that given the language in the statutory directions and guidance and what will go in the Bill, we have both belt and braces. If we were to follow the amendments recommended by the noble Lords, Lord Whitty and Lord Berkeley, we would put on constraints which, frankly, would remove flexibility on how to approach these issues and make the strategic highways company somehow responsible for issues that it could not possibly control. My noble friend, Lord Jenkin, was eloquent in describing that.
One of the principles of the entire roads reform programme is to give the company operational freedom to achieve its objectives. Amendment 15 runs entirely counter to that, and could lock out potential benefits by forcing the company to focus on an important but narrow aspect of road safety; namely, road infrastructure safety ratings. That is a restraint on effective management for the purposes of safety, not a support to it. Both those issues—the constraints that this would impose and the fact that a significant number of these issues are simply not under the control of the SHC—seem to argue for the withdrawal of the amendment and for the use of the belt and braces which we have already agreed will be in place. There is no need to seek a legal requirement to appraise different types of intervention on the basis that some of the amendments propose, because they are already in the Bill. The company will continue to use the department’s transport appraisal guidance, which ensures that interventions are considered on a consistent and proportionate basis.
I come now to the duties of the monitor. In Committee, and just now, your Lordships were persuasive about the need to help improve road safety and the environment. As noble Lords know, we have said that we will move an amendment on that, and your Lordships have been able to see the much stronger and detailed language now in the guidance and direction. Therefore, this amendment should be seen as not only requiring the Secretary of State to have regard to safety and the environment when setting or varying the strategy, but also indirectly generating objectives on those areas that the company would be bound to pursue—thus subject to the independent scrutiny of the watchdog and the monitor.
In Committee, your Lordships made it very clear that consultation over and above the work carried out by the company through the route strategies and the engagement that the Government will carry out as they set or vary the strategy is needed. To provide reassurance that we will engage with the public and shareholders, we are happy to include this requirement in the Bill as well. Government Amendments 28 to 31, if accepted, would add this requirement and some of the necessary consequential changes.
New powers for the monitor contained in other amendments, which we will discuss later—I believe reference was made to Amendment 48 in a later group—would place the ORR in a different role in relation to the new company. In our original drafts of the Bill it was an advisory body; it is now able to act in the manner of an independent regulator. A regulator has formal duties, which it must work within when carrying out its activities. The ORR’s role on the roads demands the same approach. The ORR itself has asked for a set of duties to be included in the Bill, so it has a firm basis from which to act.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, I have a feeling that the noble Lords who have spoken have not taken account of what is in the draft licence document. Paragraph 5.11, which is headed “Cooperation”, states that,
“the Licence holder must cooperate with other persons or organisations in order to … Take account of local needs, priorities and plans in planning for the operation, maintenance and long-term development of the network”.
Sub-paragraph (d) states:
“Provide reasonable support to local authorities in their planning and the management of their own networks”.
This raises the question of what should be in the Bill and what can be left to the guidance and direction in the licence document. My feeling is that if the final licence document contains those provisions, that should go a very long way to satisfy the objectives which the two noble Lords opposite have put before the House. No doubt my noble friend on the Front Bench will confirm that that is the Government’s view.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, appreciates that we are pouring unprecedented amounts of money into the local road network and that a significant amount of it is allocated on a competitive basis, as it were, to make sure that the projects which yield the most improvements get priority. I thank my noble friend Lord Jenkin for making the case so clearly as that enables me to shorten my remarks.
The noble Lords, Lord Whitty and Lord Davies, have proposed amendments—the amendments also stand in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie—which suggest that local highways authorities are involved with setting up the strategic highways company, that these bodies are consulted when setting the road investment strategy, and that the strategy accounts for potential impacts on local and other networks. I fully accept that these are well intentioned amendments but I contend that they are not needed.
Let me be clear: we want the company to work closely with other highway and traffic authorities to achieve the objectives determined by the Secretary of State. Without close co-operation, both the company and the local highways authorities would not be able to deliver their network management duty as set out in the Traffic Management Act 2004. However, it is important to recognise that the company will not be responsible for the management of local authority roads, and local authorities would be furious if it attempted to do so.
We consulted publicly in October 2013 on the proposals to create the new company and the future governance arrangements, taking into account the views of local highway authorities in our response. That response, published on 30 April this year, formed the foundation of the proposed legislation. It is hard to see what value an additional consultation would bring.
With regard to board representation, we are creating a limited company with a fully functioning board to guide and hold the company’s executive to account. Therefore, involving local authorities in the detailed running of the company would undermine that effective management and oversight of the company and the strengthened arrangements that we intend to put in place.
Our analysis of investment proposals for the strategy will necessarily account for overall transport impacts due to the close links between the strategic road network and other networks, including local highways. Requiring the strategy to include a detailed analysis of the impact on the condition or overall funding arrangements for local roads, or other networks, is unnecessary. Much of this work is already required, while some of the more detailed implications would be a burden and risk causing confusion by making central government take action on issues which are within the purview of local government to deal with. We are very conscious of devolution issues in this regard. Requiring us to consider the condition of the strategic road network as part of setting the strategy is unnecessary because we have considered the state of the network. We reached the decision to invest more money in maintenance and renewals at the last spending round
I turn to the issue of consultation. Given that we have tabled a set of amendments which require consultation to take place as part of setting and varying the strategy, and combined with the requirements on co-operation and the fact that the company would be fully engaged with local highways authorities, there is no need to specify that the company must consult them. It is already embedded.
I hope I have been clear. I have reflected on the amendments about the involvement of local highways authorities in the running of the company and the road investment strategy. I believe that the objectives of the amendments are achieved already within the Bill and the accompanying documents. I hope very much that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I think, whatever the realities and wherever they are reflected, they are not reflected in the Bill. The local authorities themselves have drawn this to our attention and no doubt to the Government’s attention, which is why they are supporting most of these amendments. The reality is that most journeys on the strategic network start and finish on the local network. Any new schemes, any maintenance, any accidents, any new traffic management systems on the strategic network have an impact on the local network.
For those reasons, very good co-operation is needed. I am glad that there is a reference, to which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, referred, in the draft licence. I am glad that the Minister recognises the need for such co-operation. I would, of course, be more impressed by its being in the licence, if the licence was reflected in the main part of the Bill, and therefore had some at least indirect legislative recognition. The key issue here is co-operation and understanding between the new company and the local highways authorities.
In other pieces of legislation a duty to co-operate has appeared in the Bill, not in any subordinate legislation or subordinate documents. I think there is a strong case for that to be included here. On the structure of the company, I understand the Government’s reluctance to specify who should be on the board, but if the board of the new company does not include somebody who understands the role of local highways authorities, whether or not that is prescribed in the legislation—
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I will not be able to speak again on this amendment. I may not have been very clear but when I talked about the issues I would bring back to put as duties, co-operation was one of the three, along with environment and road safety.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I appreciate that aspect of it. I hope, therefore, that what the noble Baroness comes forward with at a later stage meets the general requirement of co-operation. I was commenting also on the structure of the company, and I understand the reluctance to specify that in the Bill, but some engagement between the governance of the new company and local highways authorities is needed, and that objective was reflected in this amendment.
I sincerely hope that the Government’s amendment on co-operation does the job to the satisfaction of the local highways authorities and that the reality is that the relationship between the new company and the local highways authorities is better than the relationship of the Highways Agency has sometimes been and indeed better than what the department’s relationship with local authorities has sometimes been, despite the amount of money, to which both Front Benches have referred, which is now going to local highway schemes.
I will withdraw this amendment at this stage and look forward to the Government’s proposition later. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Kramer
“(4A) In setting or varying a Road Investment Strategy, the Secretary of State must have regard, in particular, to the effect of the Strategy on—
(a) the environment, and(b) the safety of users of highways.”
Lord Berkeley
I speak briefly on this amendment. We are in Schedule 2, Part 1 now. It suggests that there need to be route strategies before the Secretary of State can really put forward investment strategies. We have discussed this before—in route strategies it seeks to ensure full consultation. The Minister has been very forthright in her commitment to consultation, which of course I welcome very much. It is, however, another way of saying how important it is, when one is considering route strategies, to look at all different modes, including not only the local government travel to work areas, how to move people around and ensure consultation.
The proposal is a very useful precursor to an investment strategy, and I hope it will give the impression outside, as it is designed to, that transport, surface transport, road, rail and other means of transport are being looked at in the round rather than just having an investment strategy in which we are investing in roads willy-nilly. I beg to move.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I will speak briefly to the amendment. We recognise that what the noble Lord is seeking to do is to remove some ambiguity, but we are not comfortable with his amendment because we think it would prevent the company from adapting the route strategy process to meet changing needs and circumstances. That would make it somewhat undesirable. We recognise what is driving this. It seems that it is being driven by a desire for greater clarity, so I am happy to commit to him to include a requirement in the final version of the statutory directions and guidance along the lines that the company will agree the process with the Secretary of State and publish it. That should provide the combination we are seeking, both of clarity and of flexibility. I hope that on that basis the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Berkeley
I am grateful to the Minister for that short reply. I shall read it with interest, but it sounds good. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Kramer
“(1A) The Secretary of State may only publish proposals under sub-paragraph (1) if satisfied that appropriate consultation has taken place.”
Baroness Kramer
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, in Committee my noble friend Lord Bradshaw raised the question of the power to fine the new company. As originally proposed, this power would have belonged to the Secretary of State. Under our proposed removal of Clause 5 and its replacement following Clause 9—I draw the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, to that, because I know there can be confusion—which will be covered by Amendment 41, this power will be transferred to the independent monitor.
We have consistently stressed the importance of independent accountability to the strength of the new model for managing highways. The creation of the watchdog and monitor creates a powerful team that can scrutinise performance of the company and can represent the interests both of its users and of wider taxpayers. I am not aware of any country in the world which operates an equivalent model of accountability. This will give England’s road users a powerful voice.
On reflection, however, I can also see the value of going further. We have designed a system that ensures that the Secretary of State is well advised when planning the future of the network and judging the quality of its current management. By introducing this amendment, we will also give the roads monitor the power to directly influence the behaviour of the company, in the manner of a true regulator. The monitor will be given two statutory powers under this system. It will have the power to issue an improvement notice, which will require the company to take specific action to correct a failure in its performance. It will also have the power to issue fines, should matters become particularly serious. This matches the regime in rail, and will make the new highways company accountable in the same way as Network Rail is at present.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I speak to Amendment 33, which asks the watchdog to look after the interests of cyclists and pedestrians. As we know, and as the department has recognised, a strategic road network can often be a barrier for pedestrians and cyclists. That means that there are many potential users of the network who may wish to use it to cycle to work but currently cannot.
The legislation would not allow Passenger Focus to consider their views. The chief executive, Anthony Smith, has been quoted as making clear his view that, given the legislation, Passenger Focus could focus only on actual users of the strategic network along with, perhaps, a second tier of fleet managers marshalling its use. While he quite understood the concerns around the remit, any change must be a matter for government and the legislative process. This is therefore our chance to effect that change, against a background in which the Government continue to respond to the increasing pressure for the use of cycles by saying that they are very much in favour of such growth.
Of course, the greatest deterrent to cycle use in our towns and cities and on connecting roads of any significance is danger. Because we do not set out to protect cyclists adequately, our present figures are dreadful in comparison to many other European countries. In the UK, 2% of journeys are made by bike, compared with 10% in Austria, 19% in Denmark and 27% in the Netherlands. Some 22% of all journeys in the UK are of less than a mile, but a fifth of these are in a car. Some people are, of course, obliged to use a car for a journey of less than a mile. However, the great deterrent to using the far more efficient and effective cycle is that people consider cycling to be dangerous.
The Government promised to support cycling but, of course, Cycling England, the pressure group for cyclists, was shut down; the body which co-ordinated policy and action on cycling, which had a £60 million annual budget, was shut down; and the Government also abandoned the cycling towns and cities initiative which we, as the previous Administration, had initiated—and it was delivering results. The proportion of people cycling at least once a month in England dropped from 15.3% to 14.7% in the year to October 2013. No one is going to say that that is a dramatic drop, but it is movement in the wrong direction when there are calls on all sides, to which the Government subscribe, for cycling to be encouraged. There was a decline in all regions in the United Kingdom.
I am therefore seeking with this amendment for the Government, who alone can take the legislative initiative on this—that is quite clear—to give a voice to cyclists and pedestrians, and to ensure that we make some progress on the aim of improving the use of cycling, and even walking over short distances. In order to achieve that, certainly with cycling, we must overcome the anxiety of the public that cycling on so many of our roads is just not safe enough.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I begin by addressing Amendment 49, which relates back to my original amendments on changing the powers to fine. As I said earlier, the ability to provide overarching governance is a necessary part of a regime in which the ORR is undertaking independent enforcement activity. This is especially true on fines. We want fines to be independent and fair, but we also want to make certain that they do not jeopardise the ability of the company to deliver what it has promised under the RIS. In future, it may also be helpful to have a mechanism to clarify the rules around fines. In the Railways Act these are subject to very detailed instructions, and without the subsection that this amendment removes there would be no way to do this if it were judged necessary.
I now turn to the watchdog. I am aware that the House recognises the value of that role. I am keen that we keep sight of what is important about the creation of the watchdog: the establishment of an organisation that will represent the interests of road users, whose voice must be listened to by those in government. That is something that will make the roads operator publicly accountable in a way that it never has been seen before.
I would like to make a distinction between what the new system of road governance achieves overall, and what role the watchdog plays within that system. Overall, we agree wholeheartedly that the impacts on communities around the network, and on those who walk and cycle in the vicinity, are very important. Environmental enhancements and measures to improve conditions for walkers and cyclists will be important parts of the road investment strategy when it comes into force. I will be discussing a number of issues around cycling in a later group, where a number of cycling-related investments are clustered. That may well answer some of the questions that have been raised at this point.
We expect that the policing of this will belong to the monitor and not to the watchdog. The ORR has monitored Network Rail’s environmental improvements for many years and has the necessary expertise to do the job well. By contrast, looking at the watchdog, Passenger Focus is an organisation focused firmly on gathering, understanding and promoting the views of transport users. It is not an expert in examining environmental impacts or issues, and while it is expanding its remit it does not plan to do so at the expense of its widely praised focus on users’ interests. The purpose of this organisation, whether now or in its new guise as Transport Focus, should be to put forward the views of the people who use the network. Anything else would dilute its ability to do the job well.
I should stress that users include both walkers and cyclists, as Amendment 52 ensures that the definition of “users of highways” includes cyclists and pedestrians, although I must make it clear it is not limited to them. Those who might use the network but do not feel able to are already being heard through the work that Passenger Focus is doing to engage with walking and cycling groups and find out what they feel to be the main barriers to using the network. I can assure your Lordships that this will remain an important part of Transport Focus’s remit. The same is true of potential freight users and potential motorists. All users, of every kind, will contribute to the route strategies that determine the priorities for future investment plans.
I am pleased that we are creating an organisation dedicated to listening to road users’ views, but I would be less happy creating an organisation that tells road users what their views should be. Transport Focus must be free to say what users actually think, and not what we might like them to, otherwise it will not have any credibility with the travelling public. That means we must catch the other issues that your Lordships have raised—including modal shift and environmental impact—elsewhere in the governance system. We have already discussed the new environmental duties on the monitor, and I hope our road investment strategy will do even more.
The proposal to widen the scope of voluntary agreements between the watchdog and local highways authorities is an interesting one. In practice, I believe that the existing wording, “protecting and promoting” the interests of users, is already broad enough to cover anything that a local authority might want the watchdog to do, and more clearly matches their remit as specified in subsection (1).
I therefore hope that your Lordships will feel able to support the government amendments and not to press the others.
Infrastructure Bill [HL]
Baroness Kramer Excerpts(9 years, 6 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, in this grouping I have five small amendments, Amendments 36 to 40. They really suggest that perhaps the Office of Rail Regulation needs renaming, whether as the Office of Rail and Road Regulation, the Office of Road and Rail Regulation, the Office of Surface Transport or something like that. Given that the Government and Passenger Focus have agreed to change that organisation’s name, I wondered whether the Minister had any proposals to make this change.
Amendment 39 tries to link in with the licence and other things about which we were talking. Probably the most important amendment in this group of five is Amendment 40. Can the Minister explain why Clause 9(5) is there? Basically, the strategic roads authority would not have to provide any documentation to the monitor or office of road regulation if it was confidential. It could not be compelled to produce such information.
I do not believe that that is the case for the Office of Rail Regulation or Network Rail. Network Rail should provide every bit of information that is required. I know from discussions in Germany with the German rail regulator that the German railway, Deutsche Bahn, succeeds in preventing the regulator from investigating some sections too thoroughly because it was not given the information. It is a bad precedent. Would the Minister consider whether this paragraph is necessary or could be changed?
The final two amendments in this grouping are Amendments 41 and 42. Perhaps I should speak to Amendment 42 and the Minister could answer. She should then speak to Amendment 41, which is a very good amendment that I welcome. It concerns compliance and fines, and I am sure that the Minister will talk about fines. Look at new subsection (1)(a) and (1)(b) on a road investment strategy and directions and guidance, proposed in government Amendment 41; it would be rather good to have in addition two paragraphs (c) and (d) that referred to compliance with safety and efficiency requirements. It seems to me that that would tie up the role of the ORR and make sure that it had to investigate all these issues such as safety and efficiencies and, if necessary, levy fines or impose any other penalties that it felt should be imposed. I beg to move.
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Kramer) (LD)
My Lords, I have previously discussed the rationale behind a number of government amendments which will further define the duties of the monitor. Amendment 41, which I have already described but will move shortly, if I understand it correctly, makes it clear that if the company fails to comply with its statutory directions or have regard to guidance, the monitor may issue fines. We have covered Amendment 43, which will give the monitor a duty to drive performance in a number of areas.
Amendments 38 and 39 propose an alternative to the Government’s definition of the monitor’s function. However, as I have mentioned, the Government’s amendments to the Bill already describe what the monitor should have regard to when monitoring the strategic highways company. With those in place, the distinction between “monitoring” and “ensuring” should become academic.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, has also proposed that we remove subsection (5), which prevents the ORR requiring the company to provide it with information that it would not be compelled to produce during civil proceedings. Our legislation already grants the Office of Rail Regulation strong legal powers to require the strategic highways company to disclose data. However, I reassure noble Lords that this does not mean that the monitor has carte blanche to access every file held by the company. For example, the company should not be obliged to disclose particularly sensitive documents—for example, legal advice. This is a perfectly reasonable proposition.
In assessing the performance and efficiency of the company, there is little information that the company would not be compelled to disclose during civil proceedings that would help inform the monitor’s analysis. In addition, pitching this at the level of civil proceedings has a precedent. The provisions in subsection (5) mirror those in Section 58 of the Railways Act 1993.
As for the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, to the government amendment, I agree that the company must comply with its health and safety obligations and have due regard to maximising efficiency. It is also important that the monitor has the power to sanction the company if its performance and efficiency have been insufficient, as the Government’s amendments have set out. However, as we have already discussed, I do not believe that it follows from this that the monitor needs further powers to issue sanctions for health and safety. The Health and Safety Executive is responsible for policing this area and every company has an obligation to comply with the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974, regardless of what our monitor is empowered to do. As there is already an effective and respected body in this area, I feel that it should be left to continue with its good work.
Turning to the second addition, once more I agree that maximising efficiency on the design, construction and operation of the highways is important. When we discussed Amendment 43, we made it clear that the monitor has critical responsibilities in assessing the key themes of performance and efficiency; and it will need to use its powers of sanction accordingly. The Government’s amendments ensure that these issues are given appropriate regard. The monitor will have the power to sanction the company if it is satisfied that the commitments of the road investment strategy, which will include commitments on construction and on efficiency, have been contravened.
This leaves the issue of design, which is currently the remit of existing planning authorities. Planning authorities operate effectively and judiciously all across the country. They currently have the responsibility for approving the design of any highways and are well placed to consider local issues. This system works well, and I believe that matters of design should remain in their capable hands. They need not be duplicated by the monitor.
Finally, I turn to the first amendment in this group. This proposes that the Office of Rail Regulation be renamed the Office of Rail and Road Regulation. As your Lordships may be aware, following discussions in Committee we have announced that we plan to change the legal name of the watchdog from the Passengers’ Council to Transport Focus. I can understand why the noble Lord proposes this change for the monitor. This case, however, is less straightforward.
There is the issue of the proposed name. While it may appear that we are indeed talking about an office dealing with road and rail issues, I urge caution around “regulation”. The monitor will not be a regulator of roads, at least in the market-setting sense in which the ORR currently regulates the railways. It will not control the direct costs on individual motorists for using the network, as it does on the rail side, because for the vast majority of roads such costs do not exist. In fact, the tools available within a hypothetical office of rail and road regulation would be very different, depending on which side of the road or rail fence it was acting.
We have discussed this question with the ORR itself. It is very alert to the new challenges of its role, and to the value of handling road and rail policy in one organisation. It does not, however, think that a name change is appropriate at this time.
Unlike Passenger Focus, the ORR has to manage a relationship with its levy payers in the rail sector and has a formal role in making sure the rail market functions well. Given that this is a substantially different role to roads, it would rather carry out the road work under a strong free-standing brand—the strategic road network monitor—while retaining its current statutory name for its existing work. This will ensure that any confusion is avoided and that, in the eyes of the public, roads monitoring is clearly differentiated from rail regulation. This will make it clear that neither road nor rail users risk having their interests eclipsed by the other.
There is also a practical issue with the noble Lord’s approach to renaming the Office of Rail Regulation. Considering the varied legislation in which the name “the Office of Rail Regulation” appears, the proposed amendment would not be in itself sufficient to make the change. There would also need to be significant tidying up. That is why we are renaming Passenger Focus, through secondary legislation, in which these implications can be worked through. If we were changing the name of the ORR, we would want to follow the same approach.
The amendment that I propose is an important safeguard in ensuring appropriate monitoring of the strategic highways company, and I hope that your Lordships will support it. Conversely, I believe there is a strong argument against each of the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, and ask that he withdraw this one.
Lord Berkeley
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her full answers to those questions. I shall not push the ORR issue again. It is not something that has to be top of the priorities, but I am grateful to her for her explanations, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Kramer
“Monitor: compliance and fines
(1) If the Office of Rail Regulation is satisfied that a strategic highways company has contravened or is contravening—
(a) section 3(5) (compliance with the Road Investment Strategy), or(b) section 4(3) (compliance with directions and regard to guidance),the Office may take one or more of the steps mentioned in subsection (2).(2) The Office may—
(a) give notice to the company as to the contravention and the steps the company must take in order to remedy it;(b) require the company to pay a fine to the Secretary of State.”
Baroness Kramer
“Monitor: general duties
(1) The Office of Rail Regulation must exercise its functions under sections 9and (Monitor: compliance and fines) in the way that it considers most likely to promote—
(a) the performance, and(b) the efficiency,of the strategic highways company.(2) The Office must also, in exercising those functions, have regard to—
(a) the interests of users of highways,(b) the safety of users of highways,(c) the economic impact of the way in which the strategic highways company achieves its objectives,(d) the environmental impact of the way in which the strategic highways company achieves its objectives,(e) the long-term maintenance and management of highways, and(f) the principles in subsection (3).(3) The principles are that—
(a) regulatory activities should be carried out in a way which is transparent, accountable, proportionate and consistent, and(b) regulatory activities should be targeted only at cases in which action is needed.”
Baroness Kramer
“Monitor: guidance
(1) The Secretary of State may from time to time give the Office of Rail Regulation guidance as to the manner in which it is to carry out its activities under section 9.
(2) The Secretary of State and the Treasury, acting jointly, must give the Office guidance as to the circumstances in which the payment of a fine under section (Monitor: compliance and fines) should be required.
(3) The Office must have regard to guidance given to it under this section.
(4) Guidance under this section must be published by the Secretary of State in such manner as he or she considers appropriate.”
Baroness Kramer
““users of highways” includes cyclists and pedestrians.”
Baroness Kramer
Your Lordships have previously asked if cyclists and walkers are included in the definition of road users of the strategic road network and other highways. The answer remains emphatically yes, and I have moved an amendment to make this absolutely clear for the provisions of the Bill where we use the phrase “users of highways”. I should also point out that this definition—I have double-checked this with the lawyers—absolutely does not exclude any other users who may not be mentioned.
Lord Berkeley
The House should congratulate the Minister on the amendment. We have discussed it so often. We have been told on many previous occasions that Governments do not like lists; you can understand that. I shall not table an amendment saying, “Please add Segways and horses” or anything else. I take what the Minister says: this covers everything.
In that vein of thanks, the two other amendments in this group are to do with cycling and walking strategy. Some noble Lords have already spoken on cycling and walking. It may seem odd that on strategic highway routes there is not much cycling and walking. I suggest that there should be. It is important that, as part of the strategies that the strategic highway company will have to look at, it should have a separate cycling and walking investment strategy.
In this House we have debated cycling on many occasions. The pressure is on from many areas, not just from the cycling and walking organisations but also from those who believe that they are pretty healthy forms of transport, to get the Government to commit to a long-term strategy with some long-term funding. So far, Ministers have not been able to make any commitment to funding, but the recommendations from the All-Party Parliamentary Cycling Group’s report last year suggested that £10 per head of population per year—which is about half the figure in many continental countries, such as Belgium, Holland and Denmark—could be allocated on a long-term basis to improving cycling facilities, infrastructure and other things,
I know that Ministers have in the past said that this is a local problem and that it should therefore be funded locally. The problem is that local funding does not usually stretch to such things. Many people believe that, combined with a draft strategy, something like what is in Amendment 55 and the proposed new schedule in Amendment 96 should be done for the benefit of health, and for cyclists and walkers, and to reduce road congestion, pollution and the other things that we talked about earlier.
I look forward to the Minister’s response, and take into account that this is only the small tip of an iceberg. As my noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham said, most journeys take place on local roads. Still, it is a start, and if it could happen on the trunk road network, I suspect that the other roads would soon follow.
Lord Teverson (LD)
My Lords, I, too, very much welcome the Minister’s amendment. It offers clarity and shows that the Government are quite clear that cyclists and walkers are important on the highway network. I admit that I could not resist backing the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, because, although I am not an absolutely regular cyclist, I get my bike out quite frequently in Cornwall, which is not the easiest of terrain to cycle.
I was in continental Europe over the weekend, and it was astounding to see how important cycling can be in terms of an alternative transport means and strategy. If it is one that is generally safe, and one that is accepted among families, then it becomes a normal way of getting to school, of getting to work and moving around. Indeed, I remember doing it as a child back in the 1950s and 1960s. I always used to cycle to school, save the bus fare and spend it elsewhere. That was my disposable income for the week.
Given the excellent work that, in particular, my right honourable friend Norman Baker has done in the other place in the past, and the Local Sustainable Transport Fund, this is something that we need to build on. That is why I was very pleased to support this amendment. It would be good to move to a proper formal government strategy in this area. It is also all part of our commitment to reduce carbon emissions in the transport sector, and a very important way of doing that. Having said that, I also understand the argument that—hopefully—as we devolve more fiscal powers to cities and non-metropolitan areas as well, this should be a major part of their focus of work, too.
It would be a sign that the Government is looking at this area and has some strategy that they see as a framework. It would also give a signal that the Government think that this is important, and would get them ahead of the curve on this important change that is gradually happening. It would be so much better for all of us: for emissions, for physical exercise and for congestion. It would have big pluses for all those points of view. That is why I am pleased that the Minister has proposed the amendment that she has, but I hope that the Government can consider this and take it forward in some way or another.
Baroness Kramer
I thank noble Lords for that brief but very interesting debate. I suspect that everyone in this House recognises the importance of cycling. I will use the opportunity to name some of the coalition Government’s successes in this area. Government spending on cycling overall since 2010 has more than doubled compared to the previous four years: £374 million has been committed between 2011 and 2015. Cycling spend is currently around £5 per person each year across England, and over £10 per person in London and our eight cycling ambition cities across England: Birmingham, Bristol, Cambridge, Leeds, Manchester, Newcastle, Norwich and Oxford. Since that £10 is an important marker number, I draw attention to it.
Our recent investment in bike and rail has been the major enabler in doubling cycle parking spaces at railway stations since 2009. I announced a further £15 million of bike and rail funding in July 2014, to triple the number of cycle parking spaces at railway stations. Cycle journeys are often local in nature, however, and it is right that many of the decisions about the level of investment in cycling are made locally. With unprecedented levels of long-term funding available in the Local Growth Fund, this means that all local areas that wish to can invest £10 per head in cycling. The Local Growth Fund has made £3 billion available for local transport schemes, and that is just so far. This long-term funding is from a total package of £12 billion, which will run until 2020-21, and includes £700 million for packages of schemes that include cycling and walking.
In order to meet our ambition to make the UK a cycling nation, there are other important measures needed as well as providing funding to deliver high-quality cycling infrastructure. We need that commitment from local government leaders to recognise cycling and walking as crucial to the health of the economy, of their local areas, and of individuals. But we have to tackle safety issues, including perceptions of safety. There is no point in funding infrastructure if people are afraid to use it.
As many noble Lords are no doubt aware, we have recently published our draft cycling delivery plan. This 10-year plan sets out our proposals on how the Prime Minister’s ambition—an ambition shared across the coalition—to achieve a cycling revolution is to be delivered. As part of that, it sets out how government, with local government and businesses, can work together to collectively achieve a long-term vision for cycling. It includes ambitions to double cycling levels by 2025 and increase the percentage of school children aged five to 10 walking to school to 55% by 2025.
It also has aspirations to explore with local government and business how we can achieve a minimum funding packet equivalent to £10 per person each year by 2020-21, and sooner if possible. By inviting local authorities to form strategic partnerships with government, it is our intention to build a better picture of the infrastructure, funding structures and capacity that each partner authority needs to really deliver transformational levels of cycling and walking in their areas. I hope very much that your Lordships will contribute during the consultation phase that follows the publication of the report, which also addresses the All-Party Parliamentary Cycling Group’s recommendations in its Get Britain Cycling report and some of the recommendations in the All-Party Parliamentary Commission on Physical Activity report, Tackling Physical Inactivity: A Coordinated Approach, setting out how cycling and walking will contribute to the Government’s work to ensure a physical activity legacy from the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games.
Rail and strategic roads are national networks; local roads are just that—local. Of course, where cycling and walking is integrated with these national networks, such as through station parking or providing safer cycling facilities on the strategic road network, I would expect the Government to be involved. I believe that through the cycle rail programme, and the programme to cycle-proof the strategic road network, the Government are already making major inroads in this area. But surely a national cycling and walking imposition would go against the principles of localism, whereby we believe councils are best placed to know what their local communities need.
Of course there is a role for government to explore how we can best support local authorities and local businesses to deliver their ambitions for cycling and walking, and we have set out how we propose to do that in the draft cycling delivery plan, as we seek to create strategic partnerships with local government. I hope that the approach, which is reinforced by further announcements this week on devolution, has set out and demonstrated that we are committed to cycling and walking in addition to all other forms of transport. On that basis, I hope that the reassurance provided to your Lordships will enable them not to press the amendment with the new clause.
Baroness Kramer
“Part 1APowers of British Transport Police ForcePowers of British Transport Police Force
(1) In section 100 of the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 (jurisdiction of transport police)—
(a) in subsection (2)(b), after “personal injury” insert “or damage to property”, and(b) omit subsection (3)(a).(2) In section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (duty to give information as to identity of driver etc in certain circumstances), in subsection (2)(a), after “chief officer of police” insert “or the Chief Constable of the British Transport Police Force”.”
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, this amendment concerns the powers of the British Transport Police and is tabled by the Government after further consideration of the amendments suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, to Section 100 of the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 and to Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. We have accepted the broad principles behind the noble Lord’s amendments, but have made certain technical and drafting changes.
The first subsection of the proposed new clause concerns extending the British Transport Police’s jurisdiction under Section 100 of the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001. Since Committee, we have reflected further on the noble Lord’s suggestion and are persuaded that some of the current limitations set out in Section 100 of the 2001 Act may indeed compromise the British Transport Police’s effectiveness and impact on interoperability with the territorial police forces. As a result, we agree that there is merit in removing the requirement for BTP officers to either be in uniform or able to produce a warrant card in order to be able to act beyond their core railway jurisdiction where there is an immediate need to do so and they are acting on their own initiative.
That would permit BTP officers to act on their own initiative in any police area in England and Wales when in plain clothes and without producing a warrant card, subject to any limitations placed on them under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, where they have reasonable grounds to suspect a person of having committed an offence, being in the course of committing or being about to commit an offence, or where they have reasonable grounds to believe that they need to act in order to save a life or to prevent or minimise personal injury. In other words, it would ensure that a BTP officer is able to act whenever immediate intervention is required, whether on duty or not, and regardless of the officer’s regular jurisdiction.
Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)
My Lords, I will be brief because the two speeches from my noble friend Lord Faulkner and the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, on the noble Baroness’s own Benches have established a strong case. Of course we all appreciate the strenuous efforts that have been made to meet the points made so forcefully in Committee, but it seems clear that the Government’s reservation is ill founded and the Minister ought to give an undertaking to the House that she will make every effort prior to Third Reading to ensure that we finally wrap this matter up.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I point out to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, that his Government failed to change any of these clauses and we are now getting to grips with a long-standing issue.
I first pick up on the issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, who described a case that obviously outraged the House. That is exactly a situation that can no longer stand, given the amendments that the Government are bringing forward. An officer would not be in the position in which, in the absence of a warrant card, he would be vulnerable. The amendments that we have brought forward would precisely deal with that issue for an officer in plain clothes using a warrant card who was attempting to prevent an injury. That incident is clearly covered.
I suppose that I have been in the department for only a year, but I am conscious of the constant attempts to raid the BTP for many other services, and the view of a lot of the forces across the country that the BTP ought to be an available resource. We are absolutely clear that changing the language in the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, suggested would make this a far easier task. It is crucial for the future of rail transport that there is a genuinely dedicated force. I point out again that it is paid for by the railway industry, which adds to its concern that its force would be available to operate in any neighbourhood on any issue. I ask it to make a judgment; police forces make judgments the whole time, and the judgment that we are asking the force to make is well within the scope of its competence on the few such occasions that arise, without the general change that has been requested. I think we have gone as far as we can on this and I also ask your Lordships to rethink the position they are taking, because it is genuinely important that we keep the British Transport Police dedicated to the railways in the way that it is at present.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, I naturally accept the Minister’s point. Nobody is a greater defender of the BTP’s role in policing our railways than I am. For her to say that none of this was undertaken during the years of the previous Government is a bit unfair to those of us who have been raising the issue of the role and jurisdiction of the BTP since, in my case, 2001. Putting that to one side, the officer in the punch-up in the school playground would still have had to make the judgment call required in subsection (3)(b). A clever lawyer could easily say he acted without thinking properly. That would not have applied to any other officer and subsection (3)(b) is unacceptable because it treats BTP officers differently from civil police officers and puts them on a different level. As public policy, that is not in anybody’s interest.
I am obviously not going to invite the House to come to a decision on this tonight and I will ask permission to withdraw the amendment to the Government’s amendment. However, I very much reinforce the arguments made by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding—I thank him for them—which were very persuasive, particularly in suggesting to the Minister that she might use the few weeks between now and Third Reading to consider whether the Government can come back.
There is one other matter to which I did not refer in my speech because I was a little taken aback by what the Minister said in hers in relation to Scotland and its attitude to the Bill. Will she be kind enough to write to me about that decision, which I had not heard about before and which came as a bit of a bombshell tonight? Could she explain what that piece of legislation means in terms of BTP operation in Scotland? Obviously, the law relating to level crossings is fine and we have no disagreement on that. However, it strikes me as very odd indeed that Scotland may not be willing to accept such a simple change as the one we are proposing.
In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Kramer
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, this group of government amendments addresses concerns expressed in Grand Committee and by stakeholders regarding the scope of these provisions and the definitions used in the new Schedule 9A. Concern was expressed that the scope of these provisions extended beyond non-native species to include eight native species that are listed in Part 1 of Schedule 9 to the existing Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, as well as former native species such as the wolf, lynx, brown bear or beaver. There was also concern expressed around the definitions used in the new schedule, which would have categorised those eight native species and former native species as non-native.
In response to these concerns, we have decided to make a number of changes to clarify the scope and definitions. First, we are proposing to remove entirely from the scope of the new provisions the eight native species listed in Part 1 of Schedule 9 to the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. Although it was never our intention to use these provisions for these species, these changes will make this clear. Secondly, our proposed changes will clarify that former native species—species which were once present in this country but which are or have been absent for a period—should be categorised differently from non-native species for the purposes of these provisions. We are, therefore, making structural changes to the new schedule to make it clear that these species are distinct from non-native species.
Thirdly, we are limiting the scope of the provisions so that the powers can be applied to these former native species only when they have been reintroduced into the wild unlawfully, without the appropriate licence from Natural England or Natural Resources Wales. We recognise that in some circumstances reintroductions can be merited and desirable. Our amendments will mean that where these animals have been reintroduced lawfully following full consideration of their likely impacts by the licensing authority, those animals are out of scope of these powers.
To achieve these aims, we have had to table a number of government amendments. I hope that your Lordships recognise that these changes result from our desire to respond positively to issues raised during Grand Committee and by stakeholders. We have been working closely and constructively with stakeholders to refine the provisions.
I turn to the amendments themselves. The purpose of Amendment 56 is to remove references in the overview section of Schedule 9A that suggest that these measures relate only to invasive non-native species. This and later amendments clarify that these provisions extend to former natives where they have been unlawfully introduced. Amendment 57 clarifies in the overview section that these provisions apply to two distinct groups—invasive non-native species and former natives.
We are describing former natives in the schedule—I am using plain English but we are being very careful with the wording in the document—as,
“a species of animal that is no longer normally present in Great Britain”.
This is in response to stakeholder concerns that the term “former native” might send out an unhelpful signal about the status of native species that have been lost to Great Britain, particularly given international obligations requiring us to consider the reintroduction of these species.
Amendment 58 removes the current definition of “non-native” in the new schedule based on Section 14 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. It replaces it with one which clarifies that a non-native species is one whose natural range does not include Great Britain or such a species which is present here only having been introduced by human activity. This clarifies that former native species are not caught by this definition as their natural range includes Great Britain, even though they may have ceased to be normally present.
Amendment 61 provides the definition of a former native, which is a species either listed in Part 1B of Schedule 9 or whose natural range includes Great Britain, although the species has ceased to be ordinarily resident. Part 1B is a new part of Schedule 9 and will include reintroduced former natives now considered to be resident whose release into the wild still requires consideration and regulation. Only wild boar currently falls into this category, although it is possible that other species could be added to this list in the future, such as the European beaver.
Amendments 62, 63, 64 and 77 are consequential amendments. For simplicity, the new schedule would now refer to “species” rather than copying out the definitions of the two categories of species—non-native and former native.
Amendments 65 and 67 clarify that species control agreements and orders can be entered into where an environmental authority considers that either an invasive non-native species or an unlawfully released former native is present on the premises. As currently drafted, the schedule refers only to invasive non-native species.
Amendments 66 and 71 limit the making of an agreement or order in relation to former native animals to those which are present on premises without the appropriate licence from Natural England or Natural Resources Wales. This means that, where former natives have been reintroduced lawfully following full consideration of their likely impacts by the licensing authority, those animals are out of scope of these powers.
These amendments also introduce an additional requirement that the environmental authority must satisfy before seeking to enter into an agreement or order in relation to former natives. This is that the environmental authority must be satisfied that there is no appropriate alternative way of addressing the adverse impact from the animals. This will provide an additional check on the use of these powers in regard to this category of species.
Amendment 84 separates Part 1 of Schedule 9 into three distinct categories of species—native, former native and non-native. This allows us to remove all native species entirely from these provisions and ensures that they may be applied to former natives only where they are present on premises without the necessary licence. Section 14 of the 1981 Act will continue to apply to all these species and therefore a licence will still be required for their release into the wild.
Amendment 86 serves two purposes. First, it makes consequential changes to the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 by amending Sections 14 and 22 so that they both now additionally refer to the new Parts 1A and 1B of Schedule 9. Secondly, Amendment 86 addresses an anomaly in the titles to the already existing Sections 14ZA and 14ZB of the 1981 Act, which deal with the ban on the sale of certain species and codes of practice respectively. Both titles currently refer only to “invasive non-native species”, but technically the scope of both sections already extends beyond this category of species to both former natives and those native species on Schedule 9. The changes that we propose to the titles clarify this point.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I have a fairly lengthy note here, so I will try to abbreviate it by cutting to the chase. The issue that seems to be at the heart of the various comments made is whether there should be no constraint at all on the reintroduction of species that are—let us use the plain English—formerly native. We are careful in the Bill to use a term that works better at international level, but it is two sentences long.
Our concern here is that such species should be reintroduced, if they are, in an orderly way, through the process established by Natural England and Natural Resources Wales, which provides for a licensing system. One reason why our wild boar are the only creature on Schedule 9 is that, although obviously they once lived extensively across these islands, they disappeared due to hunting and were re-established in the wild as a result of unlawful releases. They did not come by themselves, so we are putting them into the category of formerly native.
They are a good example, because there are places where wild boar may be entirely appropriate, and Natural England can make that judgment. There will be other parts of the country where there might be a decision that it is not appropriate to reintroduce them for a whole variety of reasons. Beaver falls into the same category in many ways. The noble Baroness, Lady Young, described the beaver as an entirely amiable creature. Unfortunately, some beavers carry a potentially deadly zoonotic disease known as EM. Those Members of this House who have seen what that can do to other animals and to people will recognise that it is important to have an assurance that we are not bringing that disease into this country.
There is a proper process for lawful reintroduction. An application for their reintroduction into the River Otter in Devon has just been submitted to Natural England by the Devon Wildlife Trust. That is awaiting a decision. There was mention of the trial reintroduction currently under way in Scotland. There is a mechanism that ensures that we can bring creatures back in such a way that we are sure that it is appropriate.
I just point out that if I were to follow through with the generic language that has been requested, there would be no limit on bringing back lynx, bear and wolves. Those creatures might be appropriately brought back under certain circumstances, but I would think that to be able to bring them back freely would strike terror into the hearts of most ordinary people. There is an appropriate place for control orders, used in conjunction with the existing structure for licensing reintroduction. That is what we have attempted to do through all the various juggling of schedules: to ensure that we distinguish invasive non-native species. I think that there is no dispute that the control order should apply there. Where we have a species that is formerly native, it should go through the appropriate process where bodies can make the appropriate judgment for reintroduction. Brought in lawfully, control orders would not apply. That is the thinking behind the provision. I think that it has now being broadly accepted that that is a rational way to proceed.
For those reasons, I ask that your Lordships support the government amendments and do not press the other amendments.
Baroness Kramer
“( ) A species control agreement or species control order may relate to—
(a) an invasive non-native species of animal or plant, or(b) a species of animal that is no longer normally present in Great Britain.This is subject to the other provisions of this Schedule.”
Baroness Kramer
(i) whose natural range does not include any part of Great Britain, and
(ii) which has been introduced into Great Britain or is present in Great Britain because of other human activity.”
Baroness Kramer
“Species that are no longer normally present in Great Britain2A A species of animal is “no longer normally present in Great Britain” if—
(a) it is a species listed in Part 1B of Schedule 9, or(b) it is a species—(i) whose natural range includes all or any part of Great Britain, and(ii) which has ceased to be ordinarily resident in, or a regular visitor to, Great Britain in a wild state.”
Baroness Kramer
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I apologise. The late hour is completely turning my brain to pulp and it was not that great to begin with.
To address the issues raised in Grand Committee we have tabled four amendments in respect of the English and Welsh codes of practice that accompany the provisions. Amendments 79 and 82 ensure that the codes of practice must set out standards of animal welfare to be applied in respect of species control operations under agreements or orders. Amendments 81 and 83 ensure that a public consultation on the codes of practice will be carried out before they are issued. As currently drafted, only the Secretary of State and Welsh Ministers are required to consult the environmental authorities.
Additionally, we wish to make four minor and technical amendments. As currently drafted, where an owner appeals against an order, they are not required to carry out any operations specified in that order until the appeal is finally determined by the tribunal. Amendment 72 clarifies that where appeals are brought, the period of suspension of the need to carry out operations will come to an end when the appeal is determined by the tribunal, or the owner withdraws the appeal. As currently drafted, there is no reference to withdrawing an appeal.
Amendment 73 removes the time limit for making an appeal to the First-tier Tribunal, against an order, from this legislation. Time limits are governed by the tribunal’s statutory procedure rules, so it is not appropriate for these to be duplicated in these provisions. We can, however, set out the time limit that applies in the codes of practice to provide clarification for owners.
The financial penalty for offences under these provisions was drafted on the assumption that Section 85 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, which provides for an unlimited fine, would come into force before these provisions would be commenced. It is now uncertain that this will be case. Amendment 76 therefore clarifies that where an offence has been committed, the current penalty, a fine not exceeding £40,000, will apply until Section 85 is commenced. Amendment 78 clarifies that the Secretary of State and the Welsh Ministers may make joint or separate arrangements for the payment of compensation to an owner. This is to ensure clarity on this issue, should it arise.
Baroness Parminter
My Lords, on behalf of the House, though there is almost no one here to hear it, I thank the Minister and civil servants for listening to those of us in Grand Committee who argued particularly on two issues. First, this is a controversial subject. As I said earlier, we all agree that we need to control non-native invasive species, but the range of views among stakeholders is controversial. That the code of practice will be open to full public consultation, which was not in the original Bill, is a very welcome initiative. Equally, I am grateful that Peers had the opportunity to see the draft of those codes of practice before Report. That was extremely helpful.
Secondly, the other issue to which the noble Lord, Lord Davies, referred earlier is the fact that the Bill now rightly includes humane standards of dispatch for any animals which are subject to control orders. That was a large oversight which has been rightly rectified. If animals are going to be controlled, as some will have to be, it should be done with minimum suffering, pain and distress. It is to the credit of this coalition Government that that has been included.
Baroness Kramer
Baroness Kramer
Baroness Kramer
“Native and non-native species etc
(1) Schedule 9 to the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (animals and plants to which section 14 of that Act applies) is amended as follows.
(2) In the heading to Part 1, at the beginning insert “Non-native”.
(3) In Part 1, omit the entries relating to the wild boar, capercaillie, chough, corncrake, common crane, white-tailed eagle, goshawk, red kite and barn owl.
(4) After Part 1 insert—
“Part IANative animals
Common name | Scientific name |
|---|---|
Capercaillie | Tetrao urogallus |
Chough | Pyrrhocorax pyrrhocorax |
Corncrake | Crex crex |
Crane, Common | Grus grus |
Eagle, White-tailed | Haliaetus albicilla |
Goshawk | Accipiter gentilis |
Kite, Red | Milvus milvus |
Owl, Barn | Tyto alba”. |
“Part IBAnimals no longer normally present
Common name | Scientific name |
|---|---|
Boar, Wild | Sus Scrofa.”” |
Baroness Kramer
“Species control agreements and orders: supplementary
(1) The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 is amended as follows.
(2) In section 14 (introduction of new species etc), in subsection (1)(b), after “Part I” insert “, IA or IB”.
(3) In the heading to section 14ZA (sale etc of invasive non-native species), for “invasive non-native species” substitute “certain animals and plants included in Schedule 9”.
(4) In the heading to section 14ZB (codes of practice in connection with invasive non-native species), for “invasive non-native species” substitute “species which are non-native or included in Schedule 9”.
(5) In section 22 (power to vary Schedules), in subsection (5)(a), after “Part I” insert “, IA or IB”.”