Domestic Abuse Bill
Baroness Morris of Bolton ExcerptsWednesday 3rd February 2021
(3 years, 2 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Domestic Abuse Bill 2019-21 View all Domestic Abuse Bill 2019-21 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 124-V Fifth marshalled list for Committee - (3 Feb 2021)
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Morris of Bolton) (Con)
My Lords, we now come to the group beginning with Amendment 122. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate, and that anyone wishing to press this or anything else in this group to a Division must make that clear in debate.
Amendment 122
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Morris of Bolton) (Con)
The noble Lord, Lord Naseby, who was due to speak next, is still in the debate in Grand Committee, so I call the Minister.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Morris of Bolton) (Con)
My Lords, we now come to the group beginning with Amendment 124. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate and that anyone wishing to press this or anything else in this group to a Division must make that clear in debate.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Morris of Bolton) (Con)
My Lords, we now come to the group beginning with Amendment 130. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this or anything else in this group to a Division must make that clear in debate.
Amendment 130
Lord Rosser (Lab) [V]
I am not quite sure what right of reply I have, since my name is not shown on the speakers’ list as being able to speak at the end of this debate. I do not want to test the patience of the House, so I had probably better keep my comments brief.
It was the expert panel set up by the Ministry of Justice which came to the conclusion that the presumption in favour of contact
“further reinforces the pro-contact culture and detracts from the court’s focus on the child’s individual welfare and safety.”
I would add that my amendment does not prevent a court coming to the conclusion that, nevertheless, where there is domestic abuse, there should still be involvement with both parents. It is just that it would not start off with a presumption that it should be the case.
I will leave my comments there. I thank the Minister for his full response, and thank all noble Lords who took part in the debate. Bearing in mind that I am not actually shown as having a right to speak at the end, I had better conclude my comments by begging leave to withdraw my amendment.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Morris of Bolton) (Con)
The noble Lord was entitled to speak. He was just left off the list inadvertently.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Morris of Bolton) (Con)
My Lords, we now come to the group beginning with Amendment 131. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate, and that anyone wishing to press this or anything else in this group to a Division must make that clear in debate.
Amendment 131
Criminal Justice and Courts Bill
Baroness Morris of Bolton Excerpts(9 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)
My Lords, it is important that this proposed new clause is drawn with real care. While I hear the discussions about the motivation to degrade and humiliate or to secure sexual gratification, it is important to draft widely without specifying the nature of the motivation. That is because it is always difficult to pin down motivation. A case in Canada is currently attracting a great deal of public attention in which a woman judge has been suspended from the judiciary while an inquiry takes place because her husband put on to the web images of her that had been taken in intimacy.
The concern for the judiciary is that this undermines her authority in the courtroom, because these images are available. It is, if you like, bringing the judiciary into disrepute. The consequences for her life are therefore considerable. It is an interesting and rather difficult debate in Canada. She has remained with her husband and seems to have forgiven him for his transgression, but the issue has moved beyond the pair in the relationship to be an issue of public concern.
I urge that we think about the implications of the drafting. In Canada, a woman’s career has been held in abeyance. She has remained in a marriage because of her commitment to it, but certainly it is causing problems. It is really an issue about consent: has a person consented to the disclosure of intimate photographs? It is not an issue of speculating about what the motivations might be.
Baroness Morris of Bolton (Con)
My Lords, my noble friend Lady Berridge set out strongly the case for Amendment 40 with which I am associated—namely that the appalling act of revenge pornography should be a serious sexual offence. I take on board what my noble friend Lord Marks and the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, said about the drafting. Neither of us would seek to be draftsmen, but we should make sure that we capture whatever needs to be captured in these amendments.
I was unable to speak at Second Reading but this is a matter that concerns me and rightly concerns many in your Lordships’ House. The issue is how we address that concern. The amendments brought forward by my noble friend Lord Marks would classify the online posting of revenge pornography as an ordinary criminal offence. This fails to recognise the sexual nature of the crime and the impact that it has on the victim, which is a clear violation of the victim’s dignity. Further, this failure to recognise the gravity of the sexual offence leads to an unduly lenient penalty, allowing for imprisonment for no more than 12 months. The courts must have adequate sentencing powers to reflect the severity of this act. For these reasons, I press strongly for this crime to be classified as a sexual offence.
Revenge is a horrible and destructive motive generally, driven as it is by anger, malice and cruel calculation. Perpetrators choose many ways to pursue their revenge, such as harassment, stalking, humiliation through social media by posting malevolent or hurtful comments or spreading rumours concerning work, family or finances in order to ruin reputations. But the greatest betrayal is to choose to use naked or sexually explicit images that should be a private and deeply personal matter between a couple and which were never intended to be seen by anybody else. In this way, the perpetrator commits an act of sexual abuse against the ex-partner, specifically designed to subject them to humiliation and degradation.
If we look at the criminal offence of sexual assault under Section 3 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, we see that:
“A person (A) commits an offence if he intentionally touches another person (B) … the touching is sexual … B does not consent to the touching and … A does not reasonably believe that B consents”.
To my mind the posting of revenge pornography online is in essence a virtual form of sexual assault since the perpetrator is intentionally posting the naked or sexually explicit image without the subject’s consent, the posting of the image is sexual in nature, the subject does not consent to the posting and the perpetrator does not reasonably believe that the subject of the image consents.
Victims of revenge pornography face extraordinary difficulties, as we have heard, in trying to have their photographs taken down from websites set up specifically to display this type of material. Clearly criminalising this type of activity should give an incentive to internet service providers and search engines to take material down. As things stand, some victims have had to pay so-called fees of hundreds of dollars to host websites based in the United States just to have their photograph taken down from the site.
The law needs to set out clear boundaries about what is and what is not acceptable behaviour, including sexual behaviour. As technologies change, we need to ensure that we keep up with changes in behaviour. This is why we should take this opportunity to recognise revenge pornography as a sexual offence.
Baroness Brinton (LD)
My Lords, I added my name to Amendments 37, 38 and 39 and I shall not repeat the very good points made by my noble friends Lord Marks and Lady Grender. I shall start from the point at which my noble friend Lady Grender ended: namely, the activities among our teenagers and very young adults which may not always be fully sexually explicit, and certainly may not be intended to be pornographic. A large number of students both in schools and colleges are being asked by their boyfriends or sometimes—though it is unlikely—girlfriends to have photographs taken of them which I am afraid are being used against them. The noble Baronesses, Lady Berridge and Lady Morris, made valid points about the distinction between different types of photograph. It may be that that will be addressed in the discussion that I hope the Minister will have with those who have put forward both sets of amendments.
The principle in our amendments is clear: that the crime is the publication of those photographs or other electronic media, because it is that over which the person in the photograph feels they completely lack control. It is used as a form of abuse. Increasingly what is used as a key element in cases of stalking—indeed this morning there is a case in the paper for which a court date has just been set in December in Scotland—is the threat to publish not only publicly but also among family and friends. The key point of our amendment is that when it becomes a tool of abuse, that in itself should become a crime.
Because this is about making a law, there is, understandably, little focus on the victim. I will highlight the work that the NSPCC and ChildLine have been doing with young people. They have a very good app called Zipit that is intended to teach secondary school pupils how to respond if their boyfriend or girlfriend asks them for a photograph that is inappropriate, using silly photographs and silly text underneath that might say something like, “You’re having a laugh”. That is beginning to work. The work that PSHE staff are doing in schools to make young people understand the dangers of this are vital if we are not to end up with a generation of young people thinking that it is acceptable to play at this. When they get into stronger relationships where they may have a partner over some period of time it will be second nature; then, if they want to get their own back, we will end up in a position where these sexually explicit photographs start to be exported.
I am concerned that one thing that we have not looked at is the circulation of the image after initial publication. There has been some discussion online about trolling and about abuse of the victims by others. I hope that the Minister will be prepared to look at this. It may be difficult to pin down who has circulated the image but we have seen, in recent cases of trolling, that people who have recirculated offensive and defamatory literature can be taken to court for continued publication. That should also be true in this case.
Assisted Dying Bill [HL]
Baroness Morris of Bolton Excerpts(9 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Morris of Bolton (Con)
My Lords, in a debate last December, I said that legalising assisted dying would mean licensing doctors to involve themselves in deliberately bringing about the deaths of some of their patients. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, in a very moving speech, said that I was wrong, as the Bill of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, deals specifically with self-administering drugs. However, it is clear that, under the draft legislation, a doctor would become inextricably connected to the process of assisting a patient’s suicide by obtaining the approval of their patient and the supply of life-ending drugs. If this was not the case, we would not have such a Bill before us. That is why doctors’ opinions are so important when we consider amending the law. Most doctors do not want that responsibility and nor do their professional bodies. The Royal College of Physicians has stated explicitly that a doctor’s duty of care for patients,
“does not include being, in any way, part of their suicide”.
It is undeniable that there are harrowing stories of painful and distressing deaths; we have heard many today. I am not without sympathy for the intent behind the Bill. However, I fear that its very existence, with its inadequate safeguards, could lead far beyond where its supporters envisage, as has happened in other countries, to a situation where voluntary death is normalised and expanded. I worry, too, about the pressure put on the elderly and the vulnerable, and about their state of mind.
When I was 18, I broke my back in a riding accident. I was in great pain and, after being taken off morphine injections, I was prescribed distalgesics. I had been very active but now did not know whether I would ever walk again and feared becoming a burden to my parents, who were elderly. So I became very clever at not taking all my tablets and keeping a store of them, just in case. I do not think I would ever have taken them; I just wanted to be free from the pain and I was obviously depressed—an important theme picked up by my noble friend Lady O’Cathain. I was lucky: a wonderful nurse befriended me and helped me to feel positive and, after a long time, I got better.
What if, instead of me stockpiling distalgesics, a Bill to assist suicide had been on the statute book and I had been in that frame of mind? I know that my circumstances were very different from those envisaged under the Bill, but they are not too different from some of those young people who seek support to end their lives in jurisdictions that have changed the law, which started off, not too long ago, with the same intention as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. Those jurisdictions which decriminalised assisted dying and euthanasia did so because assisted dying took too long. In Oregon, some people have taken up to four days to die, and six people have woken up after being given their lethal dose. None of them had a second go.
I told my story to illustrate how, when you are in desperate pain and question the quality of your life—which is the driving force behind most patients who seek physician-assisted suicide in countries where it is legal—that is when you are at your most vulnerable and your mental state most fragile. It is then, more than ever, that you need the best possible medical care and the full and unambiguous protection of the law.