Nuclear Test Veterans: Medals
Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Howarth of Newport(1 year, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab) [V]
My Lords, in 1992, I led a delegation of British parliamentarians to the Maralinga test site. While I very much welcome the award at long last—70 years on—of medals to British nuclear test veterans, I ask the Minister what the position is now on monetary compensation for them and their families. She will know that a study in 1999 found that an extraordinary 30% of these veterans had already died, mostly in their 50s, from cancers and other conditions. This is hardly surprising as air crew were required to fly through the mushroom cloud and servicemen were ordered to walk, run and crawl across the site to see how much nuclear fallout adhered to their uniform.
Moreover, as my noble friend Lord Coaker mentioned, a disproportionate incidence of birth deformities, cancers and infant mortalities has been found in the veterans’ children. Given the arguments that took place between the Governments of the UK and Australia about responsibility for compensation, and given the years of obfuscation by the MoD before it agreed in 1988 to compensate our own veterans, to what extent can the Minister assure the House that appropriate compensation has now been paid? Do the Government intend to take further steps to fulfil any legal and moral obligations to servicemen and their families, to civilian families and to the traditional owners of the lands where the tests took place?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
I am glad to have the further experience of the noble Lord. Although I was not aware of his visit, he brings great emotion to this subject, which is very helpful on a day when we have made a great deal of progress in this area. He will know that there is an established process for all veterans, including nuclear test veterans, to be able to claim compensation where they believe they have a service-related condition. Veterans UK has worked with the British Nuclear Test Veterans Association—whom I take this opportunity to congratulate—to develop enhanced guidance to support claimants belonging to the nuclear test veterans community, which is available on GOV.UK.
In addition to the medals, a wider package was announced—the oral history project, which is important in remembering the victims involved. I have taken part in oral history projects and they are extremely valuable, as this one will be for the veterans, their families and everyone else involved. Charities will also be able to bid for a separate £200,000 fund to support activities.
Cultural Property (Armed Conflicts) Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Howarth of Newport
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I thank noble Lords for tabling these important amendments and the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, for his helpful explanation. It is good to welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, to our consideration. As she said, she brings her experience as a DfID Minister, with whom I was happy to serve.
I will say by way of introduction that it is absolutely right that government departments, including of course the Ministry of Defence, and the Armed Forces work closely together in bringing this Bill through to implementation to make sure that they understand the obligations that ratification of the convention will place on them. I hope we were all reassured on Second Reading when I explained that both the MoD and the Armed Forces were fully supportive of the Bill—I repeat that for those of your Lordships who missed Second Reading—and that all our Armed Forces already act as if bound by the convention and both protocols, but the legislation and its implementing provisions are extremely important.
The Joint Service Manual of the Law of Armed Conflict is already updated periodically by military lawyers, who will ensure that the necessary rules, regulations, legislation and advice regarding the Hague convention and its two protocols are fully reflected in the manual once ratification has taken place. I do not believe it is necessary to place a legal requirement, as Amendment 5 seeks to do, on the Secretary of State to ensure that this happens.
Turning to Amendment 6, command appointments within our Armed Forces change regularly, so laying a list before Parliament of all ranking military commanders who are responsible for a Section 3 offence committed by forces under their effective command would quickly require updating or become obsolete. Commanders are responsible for ensuring compliance of their forces and forces under their control with a wide range of national and international legislation. Singling out the Hague convention as the only piece of domestic or international legislation where such a list is required could set an unhelpful precedent.
I turn to Amendments 7 and 8, concerning the proposed new clauses on embedded forces and private military contractors. I think that their intended effect is already covered in the Bill and I have concerns about potential unintended consequences if we were to make the amendments. First, the Armed Forces Act 2006 provides that regular members of the Armed Forces remain subject to UK service law at all times. This includes times when they are under the command of another country. Embedded personnel would therefore still be within the definition in Clause 3 (6) of,
“person subject to UK service jurisdiction”,
and the Bill would apply to them in the same way as if they remained under UK command.
The noble Lords, Lord Touhig and Lord Howarth, talked about private military contractors. Such contractors and their individual staff are also already covered by the Bill and will be criminally liable in the same way as any other legal or natural person. For example, should an employee of a private military contractor who is a UK national or subject to UK service jurisdiction commit an act abroad of a kind described in Article 15(1)(d) or (e) of the Second Protocol, they could be criminally liable under Clause 3 on the same basis as any other person—so I think they are covered.
Lord Howarth of Newport
What is the position of British service personnel embedded in the armed services of another country that has not signed the convention? If they found that the armed forces of that other country were about to do something in violation of the convention, what would be their position and obligations, and how would they receive advice from the authorities and commanders in this country?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
If the noble Lord will bear with me for a minute, I will see whether we can clarify that. In the meantime, I point to Clause 29, which ensures that senior management of private military contractors are personally liable for offences committed by their organisations if they consented or connived in the offence. This ensures that senior managers cannot escape the consequences of the actions of their organisations if they were personally involved in them—another reassurance.
I am also concerned that the amendment might have unintended consequences for this and other legislation. By making explicit reference to embedded forces and private military contractors in the Bill, we could risk creating doubt and confusion in the interpretation of both the Bill and other legislation. That is a general point that I have made already in relation to other amendments.
Turning to Amendment 9—forgive me for having to go through this in this degree of detail, but I think it is helpful ahead of Report—this suggests a new clause on reporting to Parliament on military measures. The joint military cultural property protection working group, which has been mentioned, is already working to review the current cultural property protection training within the UK Armed Forces. Those forces already act as if bound by the Hague convention, and respect for cultural property is upheld across the UK’s Armed Forces in military law, targeting policy, training, in-battle area evaluation and assessment.
This review will ensure that we are fully compliant with all military obligations, including Article 7 under the Hague convention and its two protocols. This will be complemented once the UK becomes a high contracting party, which I think is three months after Royal Assent, with an implementation report every four years, as required by UNESCO, giving information of all the measures being taken to fulfil our obligations under the convention. Article 7 is one of a number of issues outlined by UNESCO which national authorities may wish to take into account when preparing their national reports. Having looked at this, I believe that these two reports will be sufficient to monitor our obligations under the convention and its protocols and to ensure they are fulfilled following ratification.
Lord Howarth of Newport
Is the Minister able to assist the Committee with any observations about the resources that will be available to the cultural property protection unit now and in future?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
We have made this a priority. I was going to say that my noble friend Lady Berridge made a good point about the link to the police. We have the military—the monuments men whom we heard about last time, one of them a 100 year-old woman—and the police effort. Together they need to have adequate resource, as I explained last time. Although it is an operational decision for the Met, working with the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime, to determine the available resources, in the spending review the Government pledged strong support for the police.
On the monuments men and the monuments lady in particular, I will come back to noble Lords on exactly what our plans are. The good news is that they are well geared up and are starting to recruit specialists into the Army Reserve pending final approval of the Bill now that we have, at last, found parliamentary time.
The working group will continue to provide updates on its progress, but I do not feel that a statutory requirement on the Secretary of State to produce a report a year after the Act is passed would be appropriate at such an early stage of its development. I hope the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, talked about the penalties when he spoke about whether the clause should stand part. Concerns have been expressed about the 30-year term. To some degree, I sympathise. I felt that when I saw the provisions. I am pleased to say that officials have now outlined the detailed reasons behind the approach, and I agree with their reasoning. The introduction of the penalty is considered appropriate to comply with Article 15(2) of the second protocol, which obliges parties to adopt measures necessary to establish in their domestic law criminal offences as set out in Article 15(1) of the same protocol and to make them punishable by appropriate penalties. While at first sight it may seem surprising that an offence of this nature and ancillary offences, such as attempting or conspiring, attract the same maximum penalty as war crimes, this flows naturally from the seriousness with which these offences are considered in international law. It is worth noting, as the noble Lord acknowledged, that this is a maximum penalty. In practice, the penalty may be a much shorter sentence or even a fine and the maximum sentence is likely to be reserved for only the most heinous crimes against cultural property.
The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, asked whether we have consulted the Sentencing Council. We have not consulted it, but we will certainly look into this. I also thank the noble Lord for raising this point.
There are a number of important amendments in this group. The military is already very much behind this work, and we are gearing up for further work following the Bill’s passage—smoothly and rapidly, I hope—through the two Houses of Parliament, if that is possible these days. I will write to noble Lords with a little more detail about the working group.
Baroness Northover
Is the Minister able to give any kind of answer to the noble Lord, Lord Howarth? He asked a very pertinent question about what happens when our military might be embedded with others. I realise that at Second Reading there was mention of the situation in Yemen, which is a case in point. If there is a response that might suddenly inspire the Minister—I think that one might have arrived—it would be helpful to have it now rather than in a letter.
Lord Howarth of Newport
May I add a gloss to the intervention that I made? We really have to think about a situation in which we are working with an ally who might have signed the convention but not both protocols.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I thank the noble Lord for pressing the point. I hope it will help if I say that British forces will act as if bound by the Act whether they are embedded or not. If they were involved in destruction under command, we would use our discretion on prosecution.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I thank the noble Lord for his comments. It is indeed delightful and unusual to have a cultural emblem on the face of legislation—I think I am not meant to flash legislation in the House, but I am delighted. On a lighter note, I was also delighted to see that Professor Peter Stone had a badge showing the emblem when he came to see me today. I am slightly worried that he might not be able to continue to use the badge, which shows him as a supporter, but I hope we can ensure that is not the case, because it is totemic and important. I am also grateful for the opportunity to clarify the circumstances in which digital material could be protected, although we have touched on it already.
Relatively modern types of cultural property such as film or recorded music could indeed be covered by the definition of “cultural property”. In practice, this would be in the form of physical recordings and storage, even if the film or music was digital. We would expect the emblem to be displayed on the physical object containing the recording or digital data.
The regulations to the convention provide that the emblem may be represented in any appropriate form. That gives full flexibility on how it can be displayed, which may be valuable. As has been said, this was evidenced when the blue shield was painted on the roof of the National Museum of Iraq to protect the building from air strikes. Therefore, there is nothing to preclude the emblem being displayed in digital form; for example, on a screen or by projection.
Ensuring the authorised use of the cultural emblem is especially important given that the blue shield has been said to be the cultural equivalent of the Red Cross. I certainly see it that way. This might be a good point at which to welcome the work done by Michael Meyer, the head of international law at the British Red Cross, who is, and remains, a champion of work in this field and a strong advocate of the Bill.
On introducing a statutory requirement to publish criteria on permission for use the blue shield, this would create inflexibility when flexibility and rapid reaction are most needed. Of course, techniques change.
Any such criteria should not be prescribed by the Secretary of State alone. The relevant national authorities should determine the basis on which they will grant permission for use of the cultural emblem. Our intention is that permissions may be granted to relevant organisations to allow them to use the emblem in specific ways and in specific circumstances. Authorisation may also be given for certain educational purposes.
I do not need to say why this clause is important. The noble Lord has already accepted that it is and I hope he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, I fully understand the Minister’s desire that the Government should not be bound by an inflexible regime legislated to prevent them making sensible decisions and using their discretion appropriately. However, there has to be a policy. It would be helpful to the Committee if the noble Baroness would give at least some indication of what she anticipates the policy will be and the criteria that will be used to identify those items of our cultural heritage and cultural property that should be designated and have the blue shield applied to them. We are talking about listed buildings, great works of art, parks, gardens, monuments, archives? How will they be selected? Will it be according to the criteria that are already applied to identify those parts of our heritage that are the most important? On a point of detail, does she know the view of Historic England as to the appropriateness of painting the blue shield on top of grade 1 listed buildings?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
It would not be appropriate or helpful to publish criteria for the reasons I have already stated. We had some discussion at Second Reading about the process we were setting up and the areas that might be included. I shall look at this again, consult on it and perhaps have a cup of tea with the noble Lord and discuss it. It is not intended to put the criteria into the Bill. We have a process going forward and, as I explained in a previous intervention, it is important that the heritage bodies and so on should be comfortable with this, as I am sure the noble Lord agrees.
Lord Howarth of Newport
I will be very happy to pay for the cup of tea. Will the Minister also undertake to write to Members of the Committee casting light on these issues?
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, the noble Baroness has raised a very important point about the resourcing of what I think is called the Arts and Antiques Unit of the Metropolitan Police. It is staffed by the most excellent people but with funding that is derisory. Perhaps the Minister will be able to tell us what the present state of affairs is, but not long ago that unit was actually obliged to raise its own money because no funding was forthcoming for it from the main budget of the Metropolitan Police, yet it is performing a crucially important role in terms of our policies to protect and to prevent the looting and violation of cultural property and ensure that the law is upheld. It is acting on behalf of the nation as a whole, so to say the least it is deeply regrettable that it has not been provided with adequate resources.
The Minister spoke vigorously about the need for good co-ordination between the MoD and the Metropolitan Police and appeared to accept the argument that the resourcing has to be adequate to enable the purposes of the policy to be fulfilled. It would be helpful if she is able to say something on this matter.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
There are a number of amendments here and I will try to deal with them in turn and answer the questions that have been raised. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, questioned whether a court should be able to order the destruction of an article bearing the cultural emblem unless it had been given permission by an expert. It is probably worth saying that the circumstances for destruction that I think this is intended to address is where the emblem is on items such as cards or T-shirts—it is not about destroying original cultural property. I agree that the court should not, in any event, order the destruction of articles unless it is clear that it is necessary and appropriate to do so. The current drafting only permits the court to make such an order as appears to it to be necessary.
We do not feel that it would be appropriate for expert evidence to give permission to the court to order the destruction of an article as that would mean that expert opinion would be allowed to override the views of the court. Of course, it is for the court to determine what to do with an article which is subject to forfeiture on the basis of relevant factors and evidence, which would include consideration of what was involved. That could, of course, include expert evidence but it would be for the court to decide that. I do not believe that the court would order the destruction of any article unless it was sure that it was necessary, but we believe that it is right for the court to have this option if it is the most appropriate means of upholding the authority of the cultural emblem, thus ensuring compliance with the convention. That is the background to that provision.
It has been suggested that a court could vary an order for forfeiture of cultural property in connection with a dealing offence only where it is a response to new evidence—this relates to Amendment 19. The potential reasons for a court varying provision under this section are not necessarily related to new evidence, so it would be inappropriate to limit the court’s discretion in this way. For example, the court may have made provision for the forfeited property to be retained at a specific site which was subsequently deemed to be no longer suitable for storage of that property.
On Amendment 22, which deals with compensation, it is of course right that those who, through no fault of their own, find themselves in possession of unlawfully exported cultural property should be compensated if the court orders their property to be forfeited so that it can be returned to its rightful owner. Paragraph 4 of the first protocol requires compensation to be paid by the state party whose obligation it was to prevent the unlawful export of cultural property from territory occupied by it. Which state that is will depend on the facts of each case. There is no obligation under the convention for anyone else to pay compensation, although in certain cases someone else may do so; for example, to ensure that the cultural property concerned can be forfeited before the forfeiture order lapses.
Ensuring that compensation is paid may require sensitive and potentially time-consuming negotiations between the United Kingdom and the occupying state. It would not be appropriate for the court to state who is responsible for the costs of compensation while negotiations are in progress. Indeed, that could put the success of those negotiations at risk. There is also a risk that forfeiture proceedings would become unnecessarily complicated and drawn out by arguments over who is responsible for paying compensation, with those states potentially responsible becoming involved in the proceedings. The noble Lord’s amendment risks complicating both the court proceedings and efforts to ensure that the occupying state pays the compensation that is due.
On Amendment 23, the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, raised the issue of police resourcing and the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, raised the question of storage. We would be happy to have discussions with the British Museum on this, but we do not expect the number of objects falling within the scope of the Bill to be an enormous burden for museums. However, the noble Lord has raised the point and I will consult them. I am already writing on the general issue of resourcing in relation to the Armed Forces and the police, so I will make sure that we cover the necessary ground.
On Amendment 23 and the requirement for the court to,
“make public the location and conditions of … storage”,
of cultural property, I agree that information about where an item of cultural property should be stored, and the conditions under which it is to be kept, should generally be available to the public. A court order is of course a matter of public record, and can normally be obtained by members of the public upon request, so there is no need for a separate provision allowing the court to make public any particular aspects. I should add that in some circumstances it may be necessary for a court to order that the location be kept secret if, for example, the cultural property in question is under particular threat. The general power contained in Clause 22(1) would enable a court to make such an order. We are satisfied that the current drafting of these provisions gives the appropriate courts full flexibility to make appropriate provisions and orders and to take account of the relevant circumstances. I hope that in those circumstances the noble Lord feels able to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
As the noble Lord knows, I am always happy to have cups of tea with him and they are usually extremely wide-ranging.
Lord Howarth of Newport
I am a little worried that we are turning into the Tea Party movement here.
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, I support my noble friend’s proposal that there should be a requirement for the Secretary of State to make periodic reports to Parliament on the work of the cultural protection fund in supporting the implementation of the Hague convention. I emphasise how much I applaud the Government for creating the cultural protection fund. It is an excellent initiative and greatly to their credit, particularly in this time of austerity. I particularly congratulate the Secretary of State, the right honourable John Whittingdale.
These are difficult times. All the same, we must recognise that a fund amounting to £30 million over four years is not a large amount of money. At Second Reading, the Minister explained that grants from the cultural protection fund would,
“support projects involved in cultural heritage protection; training and capacity building; and advocacy and education, primarily focused in the Middle East and north Africa”.—[Official Report, 6/6/16; col. 584.]
That is a lot of objectives to be funded out of a fairly limited sum of money. Therefore, while praising the Government, I ask them to do everything they can to ensure that the value of the fund is maintained, because these are difficult times in terms of public spending.
How is the British Council developing its expertise in these matters as I understand that this has not been an area of particular responsibility for it in the past and it will need to build up its strength? That leads me to ask what the role of the blue shield will be and whether the Government expect there to be a blue shield unit based in London. As we have noted in the past, this is a remarkable opportunity for Britain to lead internationally in this matter. It is very important in terms of heritage, upholding the Hague convention and our soft power objectives and diplomacy. I would be grateful if the Minister would respond to those questions.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
Noble Lords have rightly emphasised today that we need to be transparent and open about the cultural protection fund. It is absolutely right that this House has the opportunity to understand how the fund is supporting the work of cultural heritage protection at risk of, or already damaged by, conflict.
We established the £30 million fund in response to acts of cultural destruction and damage. I am pleased to say that the fund is now live and open for applications. It is always difficult, even in normal times, to make budgetary promises but I can say that we are very committed to this area, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, made some important points. We also monitor and report on the fund throughout its operation to ensure that it is successfully meeting the object of protecting cultural heritage affected by damage and destruction. In line with these general objectives, the Government will publish an annual report. Alongside this, the spend will be scrutinised and published by the OECD—all the more important an institution now given the way that things are going—on a biennial basis.
If the fund has any direct relevance to today’s legislation, we will make sure that that is included in the report. For example, there is an obligation in the second protocol to take measures in peacetime to safeguard cultural property. This may include activity such as the preparation of inventories which could potentially be awarded funding.
The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, asked about the central team in London and made wider points. I will pass her points on to the British Council. She was kind enough to refer to the letter that I wrote to the noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter. This covered some important points on Yemen, the cultural protection fund and its future, work with the British Council and the division of work on emergency response and long-term support. Given the lateness of the hour, I think the easiest thing I can do is to circulate copies to noble Lords so that they can see it, and make sure that a copy is in the Library of the House. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for cross-referencing that and delighted that it was found to be useful.
The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, asked about the British Council and its specialist assessors. I am sure he will be glad to know that it is currently collating a wide pool of specialist assessors who will be drawn upon to advise on specific projects. As well as this, sector experts will be drawn upon at intervals to sense check and advise on the general direction of the fund.
I see this cultural protection fund as a great opportunity. I think that it complements the Bill that we are putting forward. I hope that in the circumstances the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw this amendment.
Update on the UK Steel Industry
Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Howarth of Newport
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
As my noble friend knows well, the legislation was passed largely under a Labour Government. As I have already set out in reply to my noble friend Lord Lawson, we see things differently. It has had quite a serious impact and there are a number of things that we are doing, most importantly the change announced in the Autumn Statement that we will exempt energy-intensive industries from renewables policy costs. These are difficult issues and arguably the balance has not been quite right, but we are moving to change it.
Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)
My Lords, the Secretary of State said in his Statement that he stands ready to help and to support steel-making communities. I appreciate that on behalf of my former constituents in Newport East making steel at the Llanwern steelworks, working in many businesses associated with the steel industry and working in the economy of south-east and south Wales, which is so crucially dependent on the fortunes of the steel industry. As the Government analyse the costs and benefits of alternative possible policies, including co-investment and perhaps temporary nationalisation, will they fully factor in the costs to society and to the communities in question of allowing any steelworks to demise? The social trauma as well as the economic trauma will not just be for the near term or for a year or two; it will be for generations. It is hard to quantify what the costs would be to the public purse, but they will be very high indeed and they need to be weighed up and taken fully into account as against any short-term budgetary pressures about which the Government may be nervous.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
The noble Lord is right. We always need to look at the wider costs, especially in such difficult areas of public policy. That is one of the reasons we have said that we will look at things like co-investment and further support. Of course, if people are out of work the benefits costs and the broader social costs to families in not having a working member and the consequent effect on their children and so on can be devastating. That is why a succession of Governments—I do not think that this is a party point—have sought to do really good work where there are closures. That has happened right across the UK, most recently in places like Redcar where the task forces have been working really well in very difficult circumstances.
Steel Sector
Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Howarth of Newport
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, I do not think I can accept that, although I know all that the noble Lord did when he was Secretary of State for Wales. There actually was a decline in the steel industry for many years. We have helped to get viable steel operations on their feet. We are dealing sensitively and carefully with the current issues that have arisen partly because of global changes. Consumption of steel, as the House will know, has declined radically and at the same time China has been increasing its production hugely. This causes a unique storm and we are trying to find a way forward in these very difficult circumstances. I think that the Secretary of State and the steel Minister, Anna Soubry, are doing an excellent job in very difficult circumstances.
Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)
My Lords, I appreciate the Minister’s recognition that the news we have heard today is grievous for the communities of south and south-east Wales, including Newport, where I was the Member of Parliament. The steelworks at Llanwern are located in my former constituency of Newport East.
Will the Minister be more specific about the measures that she indicated in highly general terms that the Government intend to take to stand by those who have been made redundant? I also echo what my noble and learned friend Lord Morris and my noble friend Lord Hain have said. Surely, the measures to support the steel industry that the Government have taken in recent months, welcome though they are, should have been taken much earlier so that they could have averted the disasters that we now face rather than taking steps simply to palliate them. Will the Minister also say what intention the Government have to act strategically to help the economies of south Wales and south-east Wales to diversify? What will she do to support retraining of those who have lost their jobs in the steel industry and what will she do to support investment to enable new industries and new businesses to grow in the regions affected?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, there was, of course, a new Government after the election and I have tried to explain what this new Government have been doing in this area. It is important to have a growing economy; that creates jobs in other areas. The noble Lord is right to point to other opportunities. On other occasions we debate the digital single market and all the service industry that has grown so strongly in the UK. That has to be part of the solution to the problems in communities such as those in south Wales that have been so severely affected today and for which we are all so sorry. The task forces that we have set up elsewhere, and that the Welsh Government are setting up for Port Talbot, can, in my experience, make a huge difference.
Cultural Property: Hague Convention
Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Howarth of Newport
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Neville-Rolfe) (Con)
My Lords, I start by paying tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, who was a distinguished chair of English Heritage and has been a persistent advocate of cultural protection. I thank her for bringing this crucial issue to the attention of the House today and for welcoming the consultation document we today issued to experts, including noble Lords in this House.
It is helpful for those of us who love heritage and want to protect culture in war zones to hear such a wide level of support for early legislation. I will set out the Government’s plans for the ratification of the Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict 1954 and—to pick up the question from my noble friend Lady Berridge—its two protocols. First, it is crucial to acknowledge the wider circumstances and the importance of the UK in championing and protecting cultural heritage globally, as so many noble Lords have said. Cultural heritage sites and collections of great importance in the Middle East and north Africa, especially in Syria, Iraq and Libya, are currently at significant risk of attack, degradation and destruction.
Indeed, in recent months the world has witnessed the wanton destruction and exploitation of cultural heritage by Daesh. How tragic it was to see the devastating iconoclastic attacks on such important and beautiful sites as the Temple of Bel in Palmyra and the demolition of what remains of powerful and advanced civilisations at sites such as Nimrud and Hatra. I very much look forward to the troubling photographs from the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews. As part of our comprehensive strategy to degrade and defeat Daesh, the UK must do what we can to prevent what the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, rightly called “the destruction of our common heritage”, and to support the recovery of affected sites.
Cultural heritage is not just of aesthetic and academic importance; it comprises priceless assets for humanity that are fundamental to people’s shared sense of history and identity. Through our history and unique expertise, we carry a vital responsibility to support cultural protection overseas, and recent events have confirmed the urgency of this role. We are taking concerted steps to meet that responsibility.
I turn to the questions and points raised by noble Lords. Unfortunately, I cannot make the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, eat his hat, but I can reiterate the Government’s clear and firm commitment to ratify the Hague convention and its two protocols at the first opportunity. New legislative measures are necessary in order for the UK to ratify the Hague convention, although of course we signed it years ago and largely implement its provisions, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins of Highbury, was kind enough to acknowledge. The draft Bill that we have published provides an excellent template for the changes to UK legislation that will be needed to meet our obligations under the Hague convention. We are now in the process of building on that substantial draft so that a suitable government Bill can be introduced. I agree that that is a better approach than a Private Member’s Bill.
Once the legislation has been introduced, the UK will deposit an instrument of ratification with UNESCO—in Paris, rather suitably—and the convention and its protocols will enter into force three months afterwards. Our Armed Forces already act as though bound by the Hague convention, and we have extensive arrangements in place for the protection of cultural property through our dedicated heritage and museum sectors. As part of the implementation process, we will take steps to raise the awareness of all relevant parties of their obligations under the treaty.
Since the inception of the legislation it has enjoyed widespread public, cross-departmental and cross-party support, passing pre-legislative scrutiny by the Culture, Media and Sport Commons Select Committee, under the now Secretary of State, a well-known enthusiast. We are working closely with other government departments, heritage agencies such as Historic England and law enforcement agencies to ensure that any outstanding issues are resolved so that the draft Bill is up to date and ready for introduction.
In view of his compelling examples of UK cultural sites, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth will be interested to know that we are also working on a statement that will set out our approach in determining what cultural property in the UK will be afforded general and enhanced protection, in the event of armed conflict, for example—a gruesome prospect, but it is completely right to do that work. We will also describe our policy on taking the protection of cultural sites into account when planning military operations and in the aftermath of a military operation.
It is important to note that the Hague convention and its protocols already inform our Armed Forces’ law of armed conflict doctrine and training policy, particularly with regard to respect for cultural property, precautions in attack and recognition of the blue shield. A joint military cultural property protection working group, established in early 2014, is developing the concept of a unit of cultural property protection specialists, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, said. In the near future that unit will start to recruit specialists, perhaps reservists with cultural expertise, pending final approval. The working group will be reviewing cultural property protection training within the Armed Forces.
The Government are taking concerted action against Daesh, the main perpetrators of cultural heritage destruction in recent times. The UK is a leading part of a global coalition of 65 countries and international organisations, including many in the region, which are united to defeat Daesh on all fronts. As well as attacking it militarily we are also squeezing its finances, disrupting the flow of fighters with exit checks, challenging its poisonous ideology and working to stabilise areas liberated from Daesh.
The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, asked about Ashraf Fayadh. I will have to pursue this with the FCO and will write to him about the case.
We understand that oil and extortion are the two main sources of Daesh funding, accounting for about 80% of its revenue. It also generates a small amount of revenue from selling looted antiquities and from donations from misguided individuals. Although looted antiquities provide a minor revenue stream, we take this very seriously, and the UK has an effective legal framework to tackle the illicit trade. We are working with our international partners to prevent the illegal trading of Iraqi and Syrian antiquities, including here in the UK, through the implementation and enforcement of UN and EU sanctions. Therefore, there is both use of sanctions and collective endeavour, which, quite rightly, I have heard a lot about this evening.
The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, asked about our policy to conform to UN Security Council Resolution 2199. The UK co-sponsored this important resolution, taking steps to prevent Daesh benefiting from trade in antiquities among other sources of revenue, and the sanctions imposed by the resolution are fully implemented and enforced in the UK.
The issue of looted antiquities smuggled out of conflict zones such as Iraq and Syria through the black market is inherently complex, as we all know, which is why we seek to work with international partners to prevent illegal trade, including through sharing intelligence via the enforcement agencies and international sanctions, as I have mentioned. As all noble Lords have said, collaboration is key.
I am pleased to confirm to my noble friend Lady Berridge that in the recent spending review, the Government pledged their enduring support to the police nationwide and protected police budgets in line with inflation, which is obviously important to the work of the Metropolitan Police Service’s Art and Antiques Unit.
Lord Howarth of Newport
Will the noble Baroness respond more specifically to the important point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, about the funding of the Metropolitan Police’s art and antiquities squad? It is miniscule, almost non-existent—as I understand it, it is having to raise its own money. We ought to do better than that, should we not?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I have explained to the noble Lord and to my noble friend that the police budget has been protected, and I take the point that the House thinks that more resources should be spent on this. I will certainly think about that. However, I have found in other areas with similar issues, such as intellectual property, that bringing the different enforcement agencies together can make a big difference.
In October last year, the Government announced that we are providing £3 million for the British Museum to work with experts from Iraq to set up a rescue archaeology programme. This will enable Iraqi archaeologists to be trained in the UK and Iraq in specialist techniques. The programme will be the first in a series of new initiatives to protect global cultural heritage.
The Government have committed £30 million to a new cultural protection fund, as has been said. This will seek to support local communities in protecting and restoring their cultural heritage in ODA-eligible countries in global conflict zones, helping to provide them with long-term sustainable socioeconomic stability. The cultural protection fund is intended to be executed in co-ordination with our international partners and international heritage organisations. It will be designed both to complement and to bolster existing initiatives. Today, we began consulting experts on the most effective ways of using this fund, and I would be delighted to meet the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, and the Blue Shield committee.
Last month, the Government further underlined their commitment to ratification of the Hague convention and its two protocols by making a public pledge in conjunction with the British Red Cross. Although depressing, recent events have given a greater sense of urgency to legislation and to ratification of the convention.
I cannot say more other than that my Civil Service career was helped by leading the Bill team as an official as the then Food Safety Bill went through Parliament. Sadly, it took Edwina Currie and salmonella in eggs to get us the long-awaited Bill slot that we needed to update the food safety rules, and it could be that Daesh will be the infection which brings about new legislation in this instance.
Copyright Hub
Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Howarth of Newport
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, as we have said from day one, the Copyright Hub needs to stand on its own feet in the longer term. It is linked to the wonderful creative industries worth £77 billion. However, we want the Copyright Hub to succeed, as the noble Lord knows, and that is why we recently agreed to provide an extra £100,000 to cover the core costs for the next four months. We are also financing an independent assessment to examine options for the long-term sustainability of the hub and its development.
Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)
My Lords, does the Minister recognise that copyright is a form of monopoly and that, while it is desirable that innovation should be recognised and rewarded, it should always be the object of policy to keep the period of monopoly as short as is reasonably possible so that new ideas can circulate freely and rapidly? Does she also recognise that in the digital era such monopolies are increasingly impossible to enforce?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, the regime that we have introduced for copyright reflects a far-sighted report by Mr Hargreaves, many of whose provisions we have implemented. He was very aware of the balance between creators, rights holders and the consumer. The Copyright Hub is great, because it removes one of the excuses for piracy by making it easy and relatively cheap for potential users to seek and obtain permission to use works that are subject to copyright.
Copyright and Rights in Performances (Certain Permitted Uses of Orphan Works) Regulations 2014
Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Howarth of Newport(9 years, 6 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. I think in fact that is not right. There will be rules for diligent search and indeed we have published guidelines on diligent search, which I am very happy to make available to the Committee. For exactly this reason, we are very aware of the interplay between the two schemes and that is something that we have been concentrating on during the extensive period of implementation and thinking about exactly how to implement this.
I would say that licence fees are not a tax. They are the price owed to the copyright holder. It is fair to pay for this, given that copyright is, in a sense, a property right, as has been said.
Lord Howarth of Newport
If the copyright holder does not turn up, why would the money not go back to the institution that has paid for a licence fee? After all, the institution is incurring the costs of conservation, cataloguing—all the overhead costs of preserving these orphan works—and it seems that it would be a more fruitful use of the money to let it rest with or return to the cultural organisation rather than simply be pocketed by the IPO and BIS.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I will come on to address that point, if I may. I thank the noble Lord for repeating it.
Going back to the other points made by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, he talked about mass digitisation and blanket licensing because that, obviously, would help museums. In respect of the impact assessment, the non-commercial licence covers all non-commercial uses of a single work. The scheme is not intended for mass digitisation, as I think he knows, because it is only fair to search for all rights holders. He mentioned the review after a year. Of course, I hope I will be around on one side of the House or the other to assist in that review. Finally, he argued that we should consider an insurance approach. I am afraid that the insurance approach would not be lawful under EU law and there is no power provided under the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act, as I understand it, for that option.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott, rightly talked about the property rights underlying copyright and the expropriation of property that could be at risk. I agree that the verification has to be proportionate.
The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, raised a number of points. Perhaps I could take some of them in turn. He asked about the contribution to growth. We believe that a modest contribution to growth is likely. The estimates in the impact assessment are based on licensing twice the number of works in the Canadian scheme, which licensed 12,000 works. This is because we have roughly twice the population of Canada. That scheme covers unpublished works; our scheme covers unpublished works. Of course, our cultural, heritage and creative sectors are, happily, larger than Canada’s. Ours will be an online process, which I hope will be more efficient. The consultation respondents such as the CBI suggested that benefits are expected but they were not able to quantify them at this stage. The IPO’s running costs are, we believe, likely to be in the range estimated in the impact assessment and not too low for those reasons.
The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, asked about the diligent search process—I think that was the main thing that people were concerned about. I have already referred to the guidance, which is available. It is right that the main burden of diligent search is borne by the user and not the state. We are taking a proportionate approach, asking not just about where applicants have searched but what the results were, where they found the work and why they want to use it, as well as having the ability to ask to see evidence of that search.
The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, wondered why details of the searches could not be available for us all to see. Again, we have to be proportionate. Details could include the personal addresses of the descendants or the creator. Publishing such data about individuals is not justified as a default option. It would be a bit like demanding to see passport applications in full in case your identity was being stolen. However, the registry of orphan works will contain sufficient details for a rights holder to check. Search technologies—this was another question—are set out in the diligent search guidance that was drawn up with stakeholders. Electronic means are not useful if the work has not been digitised, which may often be the case with old works.
Copyright and Rights in Performances (Extended Collective Licensing) Regulations 2014
Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Howarth of Newport
Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
My Lords, I am privileged to be here speaking for the first time as a Minister for the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and moving my first piece of business in this House. I should say that I value the work of this House and its expertise very highly.
In a traditional collective licensing arrangement, the relevant licensing bodies—or collecting societies as they are otherwise known—are mandated by their members to manage their rights. Extended collective licensing—which I will refer to if I may as ECL—allows collecting societies to license on behalf of all rights holders who fall in the scope of the ECL scheme. This includes rights holders who are not members of the collecting society and have not given it a mandate to license their rights. They become part of the ECL scheme by default unless they say otherwise. This is known as opting out.
ECL can be used to simplify licensing, reduce costs and increase the amount of legally available copyright material. With an ECL scheme in place, a collecting society can issue the comprehensive licences that its customers demand, but without the risk of infringing non-members’ rights. Consequently, there should be improved compliance with copyright law, enhanced confidence in the UK copyright system and increased returns to non-member rights holders, because the regulations make clear provision for how and when money should be paid to them.
It is well known that de facto ECL schemes are already in operation in the UK. Their existence reflects market demand. Statutory ECL will allow collecting societies running such schemes to put their businesses on a legal footing and protect rights holders’ interests.
As ECL schemes allow for the licensing of non-members’ works, it is essential that they are afforded strong protections. As I shall outline, this is the golden thread that runs through these regulations—golden light dawns. An ECL application simply cannot get off the ground unless the collecting society has a mandate from its members. Not only must it prove that it is acting with the informed consent of a substantial proportion of its voting members, it must also show itself to be significantly representative of the rights holders affected by the ECL scheme. Members’ views and their informed consent are at the heart of an ECL application. They are a good proxy for non-member rights holders, who can reasonably be assumed to share the same interests.
We have been fleshing out the concept of informed consent with stakeholders in recent weeks. The elements that go to making consent informed will be outlined in the legal guidance that accompanies the regulations. It will cover who should be balloted, how they should be balloted, what information they should be given, and so on.
I pause here to say that this work with our stakeholders is but one example of the in-depth research and consultation that we have been conducting since the passage of the ERR Act, taken through under the stewardship of my predecessor, my noble friend Lord Younger of Leckie. We have convened working groups that ran until September 2013; conducted a technical consultation between November and January 2014; developed the regulations and published the government response in May 2014.
The Copyright (Regulation of Relevant Licensing Bodies) Regulations 2014—the codes regulations, for short—which were taken through on 6 April this year, provide a further safeguard for rights holders. They require collecting societies to self-regulate with codes of practice that comply with minimum standards of governance and transparency set by the Government. The Government can act to remedy any problems in the self-regulatory framework. Collecting societies’ compliance with their codes is reviewed regularly by an independent code reviewer, whose evidence will form part of any ECL application.
In addition, these regulations make provision for a period of representations lasting a minimum of 28 days. This is an opportunity for any interested parties to comment on anything related to the ECL application, including the credibility of the collecting society. To cater for the possibility that, despite these safeguards, an ECL scheme is operating less than optimally, the Secretary of State has the power to modify or revoke an ECL authorisation.
The regulations allow for an initial, renewable authorisation period of five years. This mirrors successful ECL schemes in the Nordic countries. Libraries and archives have argued for a longer authorisation period to encourage digitisation. However, the Government feel that the soundness of an ECL scheme must be properly tested within a shorter period of time. As a compromise, if the ECL is renewed, it can continue indefinitely, subject to three-year reviews. These are light-touch unless there are grounds for further scrutiny. This should help facilitate digitisation while still protecting rights holders.
The right of a non-member to say no or opt out is absolute. This allows the non-member to withdraw from a scheme both before and after it has commenced. To facilitate opt-out, the collecting society must show how it will alert non-members to the scheme when it applies. Collecting societies have an obligation to make reasonable efforts to find and pay non-members. Their efforts will be assessed during the renewal and review processes.
I hope that these regulations provide noble Lords with the detail that they asked for and that we promised when the then ERR Bill was at Committee and Report stages. ECL schemes in the UK should benefit licensees, collecting societies and rights holders alike. The Government have put in place a flexible and balanced framework that safeguards the interests of non-members and ensures that ECL schemes are possible only where they have been demanded by the market and sanctioned by rights holders. ECL schemes will enhance respect for copyright, help rights holders get paid and allow for more streamlined licensing so that a greater number of works can be circulated and enjoyed legally. The Government believe that these regulations are a reasoned and proportionate reform and I commend them to the Committee.
Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)
My Lords, perhaps I can be the first to congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, on her appointment and I welcome her to her new responsibilities. She will bring her experience of administration, business and politics to a fascinating, important and very difficult portfolio, and I wish her well. However, I think I can say on behalf of all noble Lords that we were very fond of her predecessor, the noble Viscount, Lord Younger. He was invariably patient, courteous and helpful in the way that he dealt with issues raised by noble Lords, and I thank him for that. I think that the noble Baroness may be the eighth intellectual property Minister in seven years, which raises a question as to whether, in the institutional life of this country and our culture of government, we organise things very sensibly. This kind of discontinuity cannot make for good-quality government. If policies are well developed, it is in spite of the system of ministerial appointment rather than because of it. It is not only the IP portfolio but a whole series of others that have been subject to these vicissitudes and prodigalities, and all parties have been as bad as each other. It is a cultural, political and governmental problem for us all.
As it clearly cannot be anticipated that the noble Baroness will still be in post beyond 7 May next year, she, too, is unlikely to have very much time in the exercise of these responsibilities. However, I am sure that in the few months allowed to her she will think radically about how we may better balance the interests of the wider public against the legitimate claims of creators, and will think about what dispositions in copyright policy may be appropriate in the digital age, when reproduction can be made at zero marginal cost. There are massive issues that I am sure she will work on, and I hope she will work on them fruitfully. However, before I am reproved by the Committee I must narrow my focus to the specific provisions of this particular statutory instrument.
I will say a few words on behalf of the British Library. I was its Minister—I had ministerial responsibility for the British Library for some years—and I continue to stay in quite close dialogue with it. As the country’s national library and one of the leading research libraries of the world, its interests and concerns ought properly to be taken into account—as I am sure they are—by the Government, and will be by this Committee. The British Library has no problem with the principle of extended collective licenses—and nor do I. We debated that principle at great length in our proceedings during the passage of the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act.
I will press the Minister a little further on one aspect which she touched on in her remarks. Mass digitisation of library content is very costly. Among the costs are project management, scanning, digital platforms, hosting and licensing. All those procedures and operations are expensive. The British Library enters into public-private partnerships with publishers and other collaborators, and there is an anxiety for the library and its commercial partners that it may not be possible to recoup the costs of investment in mass digitisation within the five-year timescale that the Government have set as a limit.
The Government want the regime to facilitate mass digitisation of all sorts of material that is out of print and not commercial but of great interest and potential, and which is still in copyright and cannot under the present regime be accessed by people online—you have to visit the library if you want to see that material. That is a great inhibition on education, research, innovation and creativity, so this is important in all our interests. Indeed, it is important in the interests of authors, because authors of such works may then find that their works find a wider audience, and they may indeed receive royalties through the licensing body. So it is in nobody’s interest at all that the system should not work as it is intended to work.
I am therefore puzzled that the Government have decided to set a five-year limit on the terms of licences. The British Library’s existing licensing agreements with its commercial partners last for longer than five years—usually 10 years or more. In Scandinavia, which the Minister touched on, they have been running ECLs, so far as I know, with no set time limits since the 1960s. Very recently, in France, in 2012, and in Germany, in the present year, functioning ECL regimes have been set up which allow the digitisation of out-of-commerce works—in the case of France in the period up to 2000, and in the case of Germany up to 1966. I am not aware that the European Union is asking for any limit on the duration of licences. The European Commission’s 2011 memorandum of understanding on digitisation of out-of-commerce works does not mention any duration for such licences, and the public sector information directive 2013, which is currently being implemented in the UK, also contains no maximum duration for the period of exclusive licences for the digitisation of public domain items. I am perplexed as to why the Government are out of line with European counterpart countries and have adopted an approach which is not sanctioned or encouraged by the European Union.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I thank noble Lords for their valuable and supportive comments and, indeed, for their very kind welcome this afternoon. I share the warm words that have been said about my noble friend and predecessor Lord Younger of Leckie. I will do my best to be an equally hard-working and successful Minister. I am also a great fan of the art of letter writing, and if I can learn from him and use that well in my departmental responsibilities and in the House more generally, I will be very pleased. There is one plus to the change, which is that there will be even more people in this House with a knowledge of and a passion for the complicated subject of IP. I assure the House that I come to this area with great passion. I was especially delighted to be offered a role in carrying forward such an important agenda.
ECL is a tool that can be used where there is market appetite for it. That appetite has to come from licensees, the collecting society and, most importantly, the rights holders. The Government cannot impose ECL on a sector; rights holders must want it. It is not possible for the Government or anyone else to force it on the rights holders. It is not possible without a significant representative collecting society acting with the informed consent of its voting members. It is not possible for a non-member to be forced to stay in a scheme. This is because there are a number of safeguards for all concerned. My noble friend Lord Clement-Jones commented positively on the safeguards, and I have gone through some of them. Their range includes: the absolute right of non-members to opt out; the ability of any interested party to make representations about any ECL proposals; and, of course, the minimum standards of good governance and transparency which an authorised collecting society must adhere to and offer.
The noble Lords, Lord Howarth and Lord Stevenson, referred to the length of the authorisation and the practice in other countries. The Government believe that, following an authorisation, it is essential that the ECL is thoroughly scrutinised within a relatively short period to ensure that it is running smoothly. This is particularly so given the additional powers granted to an authorised collecting society. The length of the initial authorisation period is not dissimilar to authorisation periods in the Nordic countries, where ECL schemes have been running successfully for many years, as has been said. The renewal process is designed to strike a balance between the business continuity and low cost, desired by some licensees, and the need to ensure that all those affected by the ECL can continue to have confidence in it.
It is therefore the Government’s view that the renewal process should be open and transparent so that representations can be invited. A renewal application would need to include evidence of the performance of the collecting society in respect of non-members and a number of other features. If the ECL is running smoothly, the renewal process should not prove a barrier. If it is not, the ECL would have needed to be revoked anyway regardless of the length of the authorisation. The Government believe that the authorisation period is balanced and proportionate, reflecting a legitimate need to look at an ECL at a relatively early stage. As I said in my opening remarks, there is a light-touch renewal period after that.
Obviously the Government have sympathy with the efforts of libraries and archives to digitise their collections. However, those efforts cannot be at the expense of safeguards to ensure that ECL schemes are functioning properly, and one of the safeguards is an initial authorisation period of five years. It should also be remembered that only collecting societies can make ECL applications. If a licensee cannot interest a collecting society in the possibilities of an ECL scheme because it makes no financial sense to the collecting society or because member rights holders oppose it, that is a matter for the collecting society and the licensee. The Government have no role to play in this process, and the regulations may not be a factor in what is essentially a commercial decision. It is the Government’s understanding that digitisation projects are not a first-order priority for collecting societies. It is therefore unlikely that there will be applications for such schemes in the first few months. For these reasons, the Government do not think it appropriate to commit to a review in a year’s time.
Lord Howarth of Newport
Will the noble Baroness deal with the point that a distinction can be made between the period of authorisation of a collecting society to go about its business—there may well be a very reasonable case to limit that to five years and then to see whether its performance has been good and it should be allowed to continue on the one hand and a licence that is given, for example, to a library to undertake mass digitisation? It does not follow from the need to be sure that the collecting society is doing a proper job, in general, that you have to restrict the licence that it approves to a period of five years. In fact, it can be extended beyond five years, to 10 years perhaps, or further. Can she deal with that, please?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
Perhaps I may comment on the point about the EU directive and then come back to the point that the noble Lord has raised.
My noble friend Lord Clement-Jones and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, talked about the EU directive and the interaction between the regulations and the directive. Where relevant and where we have the powers to do so, we have in fact included the provisions from the directive in these regulations. The rest will need to be consulted on—in my view, a vital part of good legislation—and will then be incorporated in time for the coming into force of the directive in, I think, 2016. To give more detail, I should add that where there are concepts that we do not need to consult on that are relevant to these regulations and for which we have the legal power—for example, the definition of a collecting society—we have actually included that in these regulations, obviously with the objective, which I think we share, of keeping administrative and regulatory burdens in this important area to a minimum, while having proper governance.
My noble friend Lord Clement-Jones also talked about the risk of disreputable collecting societies running ECLs. Any collecting society applying for an ECL authorisation must already be licensing the types of works that are subject to the authorisation. The codes of practice regulations which became law in April 2014 are intended to support a system of self-regulation by collecting societies by giving government powers to close any gaps that may emerge in the self-regulatory framework. This should strengthen confidence in the operation of collecting societies. As part of the self-regulatory framework, the collecting society must allow for an initial independent review one year after implementation and further reviews every three years thereafter. Any collecting society applying for an ECL will need to have a code of practice in place. Any collecting society that fails to comply in all material respects with its code of practice would run the danger of having its authorisation revoked. This power can be invoked at any time during the authorisation period. Interested parties concerned about an ECL scheme can make representations to the Secretary of State at any time during its operation.
My noble friend also asked about the Copyright Hub, which he felt could be more valuable than ECL. The industry-led Copyright Hub project is a very important attempt to make licensing easier and more valuable. ECL is likely to complement the hub by allowing broader collective licences to be offered by the hub. However, both use of ECL and use of the hub are of course choices for rights holders; government is merely offering a new choice to collecting societies.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I think that this issue merits further discussion, which might need to be the subject of the new art of letter writing.
If I may, I would like to come back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth—that libraries do not need regular checks on digitisation projects. All ECLs, including those for digitisation, must be balanced with safeguards for non-members. It is this which has led us to the view that we need regular reviews. Libraries and archives are very important to us, as are digitisation projects, but, as I said earlier, this does not seem likely to be the main focus of use of the provision in the early stages.
Lord Howarth of Newport
If it turns out that this five-year limit is inhibiting investment and choking it off, and evidence is seen to that effect in a year or two’s time, would it not be sensible for the Government to take another look at this? The Government have made it clear in the impact assessment and elsewhere that they want the kind of mass digitisation projects that could be undertaken by libraries, archives and other cultural institutions to happen, but that needs very significant investment. Those who are to put up the investment capital for this need to be confident that they are going to get a return. They are saying that the timescale of five years is insufficient to get the return. With the uncertainty about licence renewal, there is a real danger that the investment will not occur. Would it not be sensible for the business department to keep an open mind on this and be willing to look at it again if there is evidence that the policy is inhibiting investment?
Lord Clement-Jones
Perhaps I may add a question so that my noble friend can answer them all in one fell swoop. Strangely enough, although I agree with the five-year initial term, it not clear, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, pointed out, whether a subsequent authorisation can be longer than five years. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, might be entirely delirious with a 20-year extension. I would not be very keen on that but he might think that it was a wonderful thing. But from my reading of the regulations, it is not clear whether or not that subsequent authorisation could be longer than the initial authorisation.