Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
Main Page: Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Labour - Life peer)Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Excerpts
Lord Moore of Etchingham (Non-Afl)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, who speaks from great experience and professional knowledge, made a very clear case about how the assisted dying navigator is quite outside the normal purposes of the National Health Service. I guess it could be described, in effect, as a form of advocacy. In the ancient world, the dead were carried across the River Styx by Charon. It seems that role would be performed by the navigator, because where is he navigating you to? It is to the River Styx; he is not trying to navigate you to anywhere else.
If that is included in the National Health Service, it would create a quite different purpose from the normal purposes, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, described. I wonder, therefore, whether we should consider whether this actually amounts to the National Health Service trying to persuade people to accept assisted dying. If it does, and if you think of the vulnerability of the individual cases that so often will occur, could it be argued that it might become an institutionalised form of coercion?
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)
My Lords, I merely point out that this is not a choice between investing in palliative care or changing the law so that we have an assisted dying service. We need to do both. I am mindful of the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, about the lack of response from the Department of Health and Social Care. It would be very good if some others of us could press for that, because it would be interesting to know how, when and how much the Government are going to invest in palliative care. Whatever we believe about assisted dying, we all fundamentally believe that palliative care needs more investment and should not be a postcode lottery.
Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Con)
My Lords, I was not intending to stand up today, so I apologise, but this group has not gone at all how I thought it would.
When I looked at Amendment 771 and the proposed assisted dying help service, I was confused. I had thought that navigators might take a similar role to that of independent advocates. We have a group about the importance of independent advocacy, which I am a huge supporter of, and about advising people on other care, health or treatments. That is coming up in 19 groups’ time. But it seems that Amendment 771 is illustrating the flaws of the entire Bill, whether that is geographical provision, training and qualifications, the right of practitioners to withdraw and the need to support vulnerable people.
We have also had a debate today about the funding of the proposed assisted dying help service. We have another group—group 30, which I hope we get to—on the provision of an assisted dying service by groups other than the NHS. I suggest that noble Lords opposite take the suggestion of the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, to press the Government to provide clarity, before we get to that group, on the funding of an assisted dying service and—following the point from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay—the future funding and support for hospice care.
I have an amendment in that 30th group, which I tabled because I think that the proposers of this Bill have missed a bit of a trick. If you want to set up an assisted dying service, you should do so in parity with the current arrangements for the hospice service. If we understand what the funding for the hospice service will be, we can have our debate in group 30 on alternative provisions.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)
I mentioned the future of palliative care. I did not mention the costs of an assisted dying service, which I am very willing to ask for as well, but at that stage I was focusing on palliative care.
Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Con)
I thank the noble Baroness for her intervention. I think both would help us, because there is confusion about the future of support for palliative care, and confusion as to whether the funding of an assisted dying service will take away from other services within the current NHS provision.
Finally, I just want to say that it is very different from the Scottish Bill, which very specifically does say that it will be within the NHS.
Lord Gove (Con)
I am grateful to the promoter of the Bill for that, but that is a broad defence of the legislation as written and it takes us to the critical question for the Minister, which relates both to resource and timing.
The Government have committed additional money for palliative care, for hospices, which is welcome: £100 million for adult care in hospices; £80 million for children’s care in hospices. But those who lead the hospice service say that this additional money has already been swallowed up in additional costs. It does not augment palliative care. Yet, money is inevitably going to be diverted, if we pass the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and set this service up, as the promoter of the Bill acknowledges. Yet, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, has pointed out, we have not had from the Government any adequate response on what additional resource might be devoted to palliative care, despite the fact that we had a national report into end-of-life care, produced by Marie Curie Cancer Care and others, more than 15 months ago. There has been no adequate response to that report. As the former Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, has said, it is unconscionable that we should pass the Bill until we have had that response from the Government. It would be illuminating to know what the Government’s plans are on resources, not just if the amendment is passed but for care overall.
There is another responsibility on the Front Bench as well. Is it the case that, in the particular framing of the Bill we have in front of us, a future Government or Administration could create the service that the noble Lord, Lord Birt, wants by the simple assertion of a statutory instrument, 90 minutes’ debate, no proper vote and then, suddenly, the creation of exactly what the noble Lord, Lord Birt, wants with his assisted dying help service? It will not be good enough for Ministers once again to talk about studied neutrality and to canter through the speech that may have been written for them by diligent public servants in their own department. We need to know: if the Bill is passed, could it be the case that the service that the noble Lord, Lord Birt, wants could be created by statutory instrument without appropriate scrutiny? Because if the Bill does mean that, then what we know is that we are creating a Bill with holes, opportunities, lacunae, slippery slopes, whatever language you may wish to use—a Bill which is, in itself, unsafe.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)
My Lords, I am not a Whip, but I have been here all morning and I think that many of the issues have been debated at length. The questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Gove, are very pertinent, but I suggest that it would be good to hear from the Front Benches at this stage.
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)
My Lords, I listened carefully to what the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, said, but I believe it is important that Members who feel they have a contribution to make are able to make that contribution without being cut short.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)
Forgive me. I did not realise that there were other people who wished to speak. There was a pause.
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)
I thank the noble Baroness for that.
This has been a telling debate thus far, because we are told that some of the points are based on opinion polls. We are not an elected Chamber and therefore we do not have to be swayed by how we are to get elected next time. Therefore, it is so important that we do not make laws on opinion polls. In fact, we have to debate the issues carefully—and trust that we are therefore making mature decisions—and seek to get the Bill right, because the issue that we are debating concerns life and death.
I have found something somewhat surprising whenever the cost has been talked about. Many people are rightly demanding an answer concerning the cost. The noble Lord, Lord Markham, mentioned it a number of times. I was in this House when he was a Minister, but he is not now answering for the Government; I believe it is important that the answer comes from the Government Minister, who should give us the up-to-date cost. For any of these issues, costs do not minimise over the years. In fact, they increase—we will find at the end of the day that the costs will escalate. We heard in the debate yesterday that the cost of the Chagos Islands will be £3.4 billion, yet it was suggested on the Opposition Benches that it will be £34 billion. I am sure Members realise that there is quite a difference between those two figures—there is a dot between £3.4 billion and £34 billion. Nevertheless, we are talking about massive sums of money. We are also talking about money that could be taken from another part of the health service, which in many parts of the country, and certainly in Northern Ireland, is crying out for money; it needs every pound it can possibly get.
I believe the Bill was defective as it came from the other House, but I also believe that what has been proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Birt, would make the Bill worse. The proposal here undermines choice even more. There is no equity of access under these amendments. What genuine choice is there if you can get an assisted death within 30 days but you have to wait months for the palliative care that you need? Palliative care is not available in many parts of the country; it is certainly not equally available right across the country.
Do the supporters of these amendments accept similar amendments that require palliative care treatment options to be made available and accessible within the same timeframe as this? They might say, “Yes, we would accept that”, but it is not a reality. There is no reality in which you will get palliative care within 30 days, because it is not available in many parts of the United Kingdom. How is it fair that terminally ill people get a personal navigator to support them through the process of getting an assisted death, but they do not get a personal navigator for gaining access to the palliative care they desperately need?
There are issues that need careful reflection. In the light of what the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said, I note the following. In our debates over the past few weeks, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, has said that he would reflect on some of the issues raised, but up to now I have not heard what that reflection has brought about in changes that need to be made to the Bill. Perhaps it would speed up the debate if we could get some knowledge about the reflections that he has had and some of the changes, in the light of the debates that have already taken place, that he will actually make in order to make the Bill more acceptable to many noble Lords.
The issue that we need to continue to reflect on is the extraordinary speed suggested by the noble Lords, Lord Birt and Lord Pannick. It undermines safeguards. Mandatory timelines force decisions without proper investigation. Panels must decide within two days of referral, even over weekends. I know of no other decisions made in the health service for which you can be promised that. There is also no judicial precedent for such haste, because courts take months for life and death decisions—yet this process is so fast.
Then we come to prognosis inaccuracy, which seems to be ignored. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, in a previous debate, I have known people who were given a six-month prognosis but continued to live three years later. Therefore, there is no consideration of prognosis inaccuracy. Rushing assisted death risks premature deaths.
Then we come to mental health risks. Reflection periods would be cut to 24 hours. Experts warn that depression after diagnosis is often temporary and treatable. Why can patients get an assisted death in 30 days but have to wait months for palliative care? Also, the amendments erode protections rooted in law and ethics; suicide prevention remains government policy.
In conclusion, I ask the Minister these questions. How can panels make life and death decisions within 48 hours without sacrificing due process? What safeguards exist against coercion when timelines are compressed, as suggested by the noble Lords in their amendments? How will the National Health Service meet these demands when GPs and social workers are already overstretched? We had and have, in past debates and up to this moment, numerous questions, but, from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, the Front Bench and the Government, we have very few, if any, real answers that we can hold on to.
Baroness O'Loan (CB)
My Lords, very briefly, I support these amendments. The process is designed only to kill but, inevitably, as noble Lords have explained, there will be complications. People react differently to different drugs. Only with full information will the patient be able to consent. Without it, that consent cannot exist.
I have questions for the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. Why is the doctor required to discuss the nature of the substance—how it will bring about death, how it will be administered—but not to tell the patient that it may not be successful? Why must the doctor discuss with the person their wishes in the event of complications? Why is there no requirement to explain and discuss the risks of complication? How can a patient give informed consent? If the noble and learned Lord does not intend to accept these amendments, can he tell the House what his intentions are?
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)
I refer the noble Baroness and other noble Lords to Clause 12(2)(d) of the Bill, which says that the assessing doctor must
“discuss with the person their wishes in the event of complications arising in connection with the self-administration of an approved substance under section 25”.
Baroness O'Loan (CB)
My Lords, that is what I just said—why must the doctor discuss with the patient their wishes in the event of complications arising? Why is there no requirement to explain and discuss the risks of complications?
Lord Harper (Con)
My Lords, in this group of amendments—the two parts of it, if you like—I support the amendment that the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, has brought forward, which sets out that the primary motivation for seeking assisted death is terminal illness. That is important because, otherwise, the terminal illness is simply a trigger.
One reason why I think this is important is something that I am very nervous about. I am not saying, by the way, that this is the motivation of the sponsor of the Bill, but he will be aware that many people think that this Bill is just a first step—there are campaigners outside this House who absolutely think that. One problem with the way that it is drafted at the moment is that, because the terminal illness is simply a trigger, it would be very simple, if this Bill were on the statute book, to simply remove that qualification, so that the rest of the structure and processes in the Bill would then allow anybody for any reason, without having a terminal illness, to seek an assisted suicide. With the amendment that the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, suggests—that the reason why you are seeking an assisted suicide is your terminal illness—then you could not do that. If you were to remove the terminal illness piece, there would be no motivation, so you would have to do a lot more work. Those of us who are nervous about this Bill as a Trojan horse would be more reassured if that motivation were in place.
The second part to this goes to what my noble friend Lord Deben said about what the public think that this is about. If we look at the opinion polling on what the public think should be reasons why someone should be able to seek assisted suicide, the powerful reasons that many members of the public—not all, but significant numbers—support is to relieve suffering and pain. People are broadly compassionate and think that that is a good idea. What they do not support is people being able to seek assistance to kill themselves because they are poor or for other reasons. They think that that is a terrible reason. The amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, and other amendments in this group would more closely align the way the Bill is structured and what it would do with what many members of the public think that it should do.
I also support Amendment 320ZA from my noble friend Lord Blencathra, which explicitly says that the purpose of seeking assisted suicide cannot be various societal factors, such as housing or financial circumstances. That is important. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, and I had an exchange last week where he made it very clear that he thinks that, if those things are the drivers for you wanting to end your life, he is okay with that. I am not, and the polling evidence is that the public are not okay with that either.
Choices should be proper choices. My noble friend Lord Deben set out very well the sort of society that I think people want to see. If people want to end their life because of something not to do with their terminal illness or their pain or their suffering—because they do not have enough money or they have poor housing, or they have other things that they are not happy about—then those things are remediable. They may be expensive, but they are fixable and we can do something about them. I want to live in a society where we do something about them and we make people’s lives better—even if it is only for the last few months of their life, that is still worth doing.
My noble friend Lord Deben is right. He is not saying that the sponsor or those who support this Bill are thinking like this, but he is absolutely right that people make decisions all the time based on weighing up financial consequences. Noble Lords have talked about NICE today. When it assesses approving drugs, NICE looks at quality adjusted life years against the price of the drugs to the health service. It literally weighs up how much valuable quality life you are buying versus how much money we are spending. My worry is that, if you do not exclude people wishing to end their lives for these other reasons, we will get ourselves in a terrible place where we are not prepared to spend the money on improving people’s lives but rushing them towards ending their life in a way that is not necessary.
That is a big choice for Parliament to make and there are different views. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, set out his view last week. I have set out mine and my noble friend Lord Deben has set out his—we are in agreement. That is a decision for the House. I hope that noble Lords will support the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Blencathra and make the decision that you can only seek assisted suicide if it is because of your terminal illness, not because of your other circumstances. I think that that is the right sort of society we would be creating. The package of amendments in this group would improve the Bill. They would also reassure many people who are concerned about the Bill to not be concerned about it, which would be helpful for everybody. I commend them to noble Lords.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)
My Lords, I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Deben, on the society that we are seeking to have. We agree on so many things. We are on different Benches, but we agree on many things. However, the pre-eminent reason for this Bill is a terminal illness for six months. I understand what the noble Lord opposite is saying—that one cannot be sure—but we are talking about six months. As other noble Lords have said, one might aspire to have access to the drugs so that one could take one’s life if one had a terminal illness and it was thought that it was going to last for six months, but it does not mean to say that people are going to use them. It is important to remember that all the time. Six months and a terminal illness is the important thing to keep in the forefront of our minds at all times.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)
My Lords, the noble Baroness has prompted me to return to the point made by my noble friend Lady Cass, because the chance of being right about six months has been estimated at around 48%. It is just plucked out of the air. It depends on the individual, how their body responds to whatever disease it is and lots of other factors. I was concerned when the noble Lord, Lord Markham, said that these are people who want to live. They should be having access to specialist palliative care to maintain their quality of life as high as possible, yet we have huge gaps in this country.