Tributes: Lord Wallace of Tankerness
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Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, many of us aspire to be a good politician, to do good and to be a good person. More times than not, we fall short. Jim Wallace was a good man who saw it as his role in life to do good things. He did, and they will last. With great sorrow, we have been denied the opportunity of hearing a valedictory speech in this House from Jim. He would have been characteristically modest. We can perhaps be a little immodest on his behalf for a now profoundly missed absent friend.
After his early political days in the lowlands of Scotland, he triumphed in its most northerly part. When he was elected, many said he was the MP for Jo Grimond’s seat, but in short order we referred to it as Jim Wallace’s Orkney and Shetland. As MP, MSP and Peer, he saw serving in Parliament as the means by which good things can be done, not the end in itself. He was what a parliamentarian should be.
When speaking in Parliament Hall on the day of the opening of the Scottish Parliament in 1999, Jim was achieving his ambition and the dreams of many in delivering what Gladstone could not a century before. He said to all those newly elected MSPs:
“As the people’s representatives we should never forget the hopes kindled by this historic opportunity”.
He approached his role to meet those hopes as the first Liberal in office since the Second World War with zeal: land reform, law reform, social reform, education reform, prison reform—radical but workable—and all have endured, none reversed. Jim was a reformer, but he knew that for reform to last, it had to be done well. He said of the new Holyrood:
“Our Parliament must be open and inclusive—willing to consult and willing to listen”.
That sentiment embodied his own approach to politics.
Jim could be exceptionally partisan, though, but only with football. A determined Blue Nose—supporter of Glasgow Rangers—he was dutifully, but distractedly, carrying out one of his last duties as Deputy First Minister before being succeeded by my noble friend Lord Stephen in May 2005 at the launch of the Promoting Unst Renewable Energy project, on a day ironically too windy for anything to work. He was distracted, as it was unknown to him who was winning the Scottish league. But as his then private secretary subtly gave the thumbs up during the non-switching-on event, Jim then became, in the words of his private secretary, “the happiest I’ve ever seen him”.
Jim was a very confident Liberal, but very comfortable with others who were not. He felt that co-operating with others did not diminish his position or dilute his beliefs. Rather, it allowed progress to be made for the better end. Agreement with others, for Jim, was to get traction and longevity. We all knew that reaching agreement was Jim’s strength, but he approached it always from a granite set of principles. I once discussed a tricky time in the Scottish Parliament on a controversial law reform measure, and he said to me, “The test is when you defend the human rights of the people you hate”. Although that word was never associated with Jim, his words have become my test.
When he gave the first Charles Kennedy Memorial Lecture, he mourned the loss of a great friend prematurely. In the lecture, he remarked on their close friendship that
“there was much camaraderie, much political discussion and analysis, even intrigue—and much fun”.
The same for us with you, Jim.
Jim was literally admirable, with a political determination tempered by real kindness, and a seriousness of purpose sweetened by wry humour. Jim would tell of his period as Justice Minister in 2002, when Nelson Mandela visited the Lockerbie bomber in jail and, at a global press conference, criticised the way he was being kept, and by extension Jim himself. On hearing the rather worrying condemnation of Jim by the world’s most venerated man, his teenage daughter said, “Did Nelson Mandela just attack Dad? That’s cool!”
Engaging in a policy discussion with Jim was a thrilling and quite often intimidating experience. He had a prodigious intellect, phenomenal memory, confidence of argument and the ability to deploy cutting wit, like a sharpened sgian dubh. You needed to be on your game or your game was lost, as I learned on too many an occasion. I would start off fully confident with my argument and not long after accepting an early defeat, I would just pour us lots more whisky, enjoy the man and admire his abilities so comfortably worn. Those in law, civil service and politics would see the same. He excelled in company, while never dominating it. For those of us who knew him well, his ability to doze off mid-discussion, awaken and display his remarkable acuity as before was a skill to behold.
Jim loved serving as Moderator and said that he was more in awe in addressing the Kirk’s General Assembly than any of the three parliamentary Chambers he had mastered. On taking office as Moderator, he said:
“At all levels, and not least in our upper echelons, we should be ready to take risks to do what is right”.
For Jim, the risk would be calculated, prepared for, researched and tested, but that preparation did not dent the determination for boldness of thought and action. He led my Scottish party; he led government, he led the Kirk and in law. He also led these Benches, not by diktat—Jim knew this to be a futile exercise for a group of Liberals—but through intellect, argument, respect and a reasoned, methodical approach. We were lucky to have a colleague we admired, but one who made it easy to love him too.
John Buchan wrote of another great Scot words which are also appropriate for Jim:
“perfectly honest, perfectly fearless, and perfectly true”.
I grieve for Rosie, Clare and Helen and the grandchildren, who will have so many years ahead without Jim, but I say with love that we are ever so grateful that you allowed us to share Jim in our lives. Jim was a good politician and a good person who strove for and did good. The country is better, and lives are improved as a result of what he did. He was the best of examples of how politics can and should be the most honourable of callings. His faith was deep and he knew that, when his time had come, he would be going to a good place. That time is the wrong time—far too soon a time—but that place is now extremely lucky to have him.
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)
My Lords, I think the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, made a very powerful, heartfelt tribute. In his words, we all pictured the man that we grew to admire in this House. Paying tribute to friends and colleagues who have passed is never easy. When their passing is so sudden, unexpected and before their time, our sense of loss is profound. We had no idea that, when Jim spoke in the House last December, it would be the last time we heard him here. Lord Wallace was widely respected and held in great affection, and his loss is acutely felt.
Early last year, he spoke on the House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill. As a long-standing elder and a former Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, he played an active, helpful role in the Church of Scotland (Lord High Commissioner) Bill. One was a controversial Bill, and the other had the support of the entire House; yet his approach and tone were exactly the same in each—thoughtful, level-headed and wise. Indeed, in that great way Jim had with words, he ended his contributions on the Church of Scotland Bill with a reference to the historic stain that the Bill removed, allowing Roman Catholics to hold the office of High Commissioner. He was looking forward to playing an active role as a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, where his legal background and sound judgment would have been a real asset.
A true believer in devolution, as we have heard, he was always willing to work across party boundaries and engage more widely to make progress. The noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Port Ellen, spoke with admiration of how they worked together to meet the challenge of bringing the Scottish Constitutional Convention to a consensus—no easy feat. The disparate nature of the various parties, churches and civil society meant that this was not going to be easy, and Jim’s acute political and legal skills, alongside his gentle, engaging manner, made for a formidable combination. They succeeded because they were of one mind, and I am told that they even decided the size of the Scottish Parliament over the late Lord Campbell of Pittenweem’s dinner table.
Tributes: Lord McFall of Alcluith
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)
I am grateful to the Lord Speaker for that.
It is a great pleasure for me, on behalf of these Benches, to pay tribute to my noble friend Lord McFall of Alcluith for his great service to this House as the fourth elected Lord Speaker. Yes, he is a noble friend, but he has also been a personal friend to many of us for many years.
I first met John—my noble friend Lord McFall—in 1986; we were both first-time parliamentary candidates, although he was more successful than me in the general election of the following year, going on to represent Dumbarton in the other place of the next 33 years. A long-serving Labour parliamentarian, my noble friend truly respected the independence of the Lord Speaker’s role during his time in post, as he did in his previous role as Senior Deputy Speaker. Although holding high office, he carried the honour lightly—never pompous or overbearing, with no affected airs and graces, always unfailingly courteous to all. He earned our respect and affection through his commitment and dedication to the role.
Although my noble friend left school at 15 without qualifications, he turned to education after working in the council’s parks department and in a factory, and gained a BSc in chemistry, and then a BA in education philosophy. As a teacher, and later a deputy head, he gained an MBA from the University of Strathclyde, where he later became a visiting professor. He was clearly a role model as a teacher. Imagine his surprise and delight when, just last week, a former pupil took his seat in this House as my noble friend Lord Docherty of Milngavie.
As John and I were talking last week, he told me about a regular visit he makes to a local convent, first as an MP and now as a Member of your Lordships’ House. One of the older nuns remembers him as “the wee laddie from the council who was sent to catch the rats”. Little did any of them think that, decades later, he would find himself championing the refurbishment of an iconic national building so full of rats—the ones in the basement, obviously.
In all the years I have known John, I have never known him to be anything other than energetic, enthusiastic, and dedicated about his work in Parliament—perfect qualifications for Lord Speaker. I saw this at first hand when I first worked closely with him after he drew a high place in the 1995 Private Member’s Bill ballot. He took on a controversial Bill that was going to face a tough time in the House of Lords; that might sound familiar. Never one to shy away from a challenge, he chose to introduce the Wild Mammals (Protection) Bill, which would have outlawed fox hunting, hare coursing and deer hunting. Although not ultimately successful, it paved the way for later legislation.
For me, however, it was always my noble friend’s attention to detail and his ability to engage with and listen to different points of view and approaches while holding to his values that made him so impressive—another perfect qualification for Lord Speaker. He did not seek the office himself: he was encouraged to step forward to take on the role of Senior Deputy Speaker by my noble friend Lord Touhig. After five years, he still had that same enthusiasm to put himself forward as Lord Speaker. Beyond chairing our proceedings, the role of the Lord Speaker is, of course, multifaceted, involving engagement with a wide range of audiences, internal and external. Our noble friend has been notably proactive and innovative on this front, from setting up regular engagement with colleagues on accessibility issues and potential uses of AI to recording messages and podcasts, communicating the work of our Select Committees and taking on a new role of scrutinising the Restoration and Renewal Client Board.
As an ambassador for your Lordships’ House, our noble friend has built on the work of his predecessor with the same drive and commitment. His schools outreach work with teachers and students via the Learn with the Lords initiative has been outstanding. When speaking on the vital role of this House in our democracy, he has been a consistent and positive advocate for the benefits of our work, while promoting ongoing reform. He spoke to the Hansard Society in December 2022, and said:
“We need to work proactively to change the Lords so that we can continue to do what we do well, but do it while better reflecting society and all parts of the country”.
During his first year in post, our noble friend became the first Lord Speaker to visit all the UK’s devolved Parliaments and Assemblies, and he launched the Interparliamentary Forum to consider issues of devolution and joint working. On the international stage, he has co-hosted, with Mr Speaker, multiple state visits to Parliament. He gave a wonderful speech of thanks in Westminster Hall to President Zelensky on behalf of us all.
Whenever our noble friend has been called upon to represent this House at parliamentary events, we have enjoyed, and taken pride in, his engaging, often witty and respectful speeches on behalf of this House. During visits to various European parliaments, he became the first Lord Speaker to attend the German Bundestag and the first to address the Irish Seanad. The period between autumn 2022 and spring 2023 saw great upheaval in our country, with the death of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II and the Coronation of His Majesty King Charles III. Throughout that time, our noble friend played a vital role in Parliament and major events of national significance.
As I said at the outset, I have known John for nearly 40 years. His genuine interest in people and his inquiring mind ensure that he is good and engaging company. I have valued his friendship and wise counsel. He described being Lord Speaker as the honour of his life, yet his loyalty to and love for his wife and family was his first priority in his Statement to your Lordships’ House last October when he announced the reasons for his departure and his commitment to support his wife Joan with the care she needed. In doing so, my noble friend spoke of the selfless support that she had given him throughout his professional and political life—a true partnership. It really is a pleasure to have begun these tributes today. Although he is unable to be with us today, he will be keeping up to date with our work, keeping an eye on us and wishing us well. Thank you, John.
It also gives me great pleasure today to welcome the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, who I have spent many years engaging—and, from time to time, sparring—with, both in this Chamber and beyond. It was the late Tony Banks, Lord Stratford, who, on becoming a Government Minister after years of mischievous enjoyment on the Back Benches, admitted:
“There will be glitches in my transition from being a saloon bar sage to a world statesman”.
The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has his own transition to make. I think it is fair to say that many a Minister on this side of the House and the other side has learned to fear his forensic and sometimes withering questions—we particularly welcome him to his new role. Those who have worked for him in committees know that he is inclusive and dedicated. Many noble Lords, especially on my own Benches, may be surprised to know that we agree a bit more often than we disagree. When it comes to the work of your Lordships’ House and the commitment to high standards, we stand together. He has the support of the whole House. I am in no doubt that he will be an excellent Lord Speaker, and I welcome him to the role.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
My Lords, in welcoming the new Lord Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to thank the noble Lord, Lord McFall, for his time as Lord Speaker. As the House knows, my noble friend Lord True cannot be here to pay tribute, but I am sure that our sentiments are the same: that the noble Lord, Lord McFall, has been a wonderful Lord Speaker. As the noble Baroness the Lord Privy Seal said, he has presided over countless state visits and he has engaged in extensive outreach in schools. I particularly remember, as the noble Baroness the Lord Privy Seal does, his address after President Zelensky. It was such a powerful moment in this Parliament and we were all privileged to hear it. He has probably travelled around half the world in his capacity as Lord Speaker and he was of course central to the funeral of Her late Majesty and the Coronation of King Charles III. Many noble Lords will have enjoyed his podcasts and his Lord Speaker’s Lectures.
On a personal level, I thank the noble Lord very much for being such an accessible, warm and kind individual. He has been, as the noble Baroness the Lord Privy Seal alluded to, a humble servant to Parliament. I wish him and his wife some enjoyable downtime together. I am sure that he will have been using his time with our new Lord Speaker, travelling to and from Scotland, to train him on how the job is done. Thank you, John.
Now, on to the new Lord Speaker: I think he looks the part already, but he may find it quite difficult not to opine on a variety of matters. For that, as the Leader of the House says, the Government should be very glad.
Business of the House
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Baroness Smith of Basildon
That Standing Order 38(1) (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be dispensed with on Tuesday 27 January to enable Committee stage of the Crime and Policing Bill to begin before oral questions that day.
Election of Lord Speaker
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)
My Lords, on behalf of the whole House, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, on being elected our Lord Speaker. I look forward to working closely with him in his new role when he takes up the post next month. I know he will represent the House rigorously and will act robustly—as he is known to—in the role for Members across your Lordships’ House. I also pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Bull.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
Hers was a dedicated campaign and candidacy. Both candidates were an absolute credit to your Lordships’ House and I thank them. The campaign process was courteous and dignified, showing that, despite being the unelected House, we can run a good election. I also extend thanks to all the House staff involved in the election, particularly those in the Journal Office, the Hansard Society and the digital team for supporting all Members to take part and making sure that a right and proper procedure was followed.
As usual, time will be made available for the House to pay tribute to my noble friend Lord McFall when he leaves the Woolsack, and I have promised him, under pain of retaliation, that we will not be paying tribute to him today and pre-empting the tributes we will pay later, but I know that the whole House will want to thank him for what has been really sterling service to the House for so many years. Thank you.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I entirely endorse everything the Leader of the House has said on our behalf. I congratulate my noble friend Lord Forsyth—and he is my friend. However, I remember that, when I first became a Minister in your Lordships’ House, it fell to my noble friend to ask the first Question. I was very pleased and went up to him and said, “I’m glad it’s you asking a Question” and he said, “Yes, yes, good”. And, my Lords, he asked me a right bastard of a Question! I am sorry: that may not be parliamentary language. He asked me a really difficult Question. I said to him afterwards, “So what’s going on?” He gave me that seraphic smile and said, “Well, you did very well”.
I only tell that story to show that I know my noble friend, as the Leader of the House said, is rigorous in his scrutiny. He was as rigorous in his scrutiny of us on our side when we were in Government as he is here. He is a great parliamentarian and will be a wonderful servant of your Lordships’ House in his new role, I have no doubt.
Like the Leader, I would like to pay a most sincere tribute to—if I may say—my noble friend Lady Bull, who conducted herself with her habitual decorum and charm. I hope she will take from this election a sense of the respect and affection in which she is held. The Cross Benches are a vital part of this House, and long may that remain.
Like others, I accept the strictures that there should be no tributes to the Lord Speaker today. I regret, however, that I will not be present on the day assigned for tributes, for personal reasons. Therefore, I hope noble Lords will forgive me if I take 30 seconds to express my deepest sense of friendship, affection and gratitude for his service as Lord Speaker, as chair of the commission and in so many other ways. I worked with him as both Leader of the House and Leader of the Opposition, and he treated me in the same way on both occasions. He is a consummate servant of the House, in often not easy circumstances, and some of that may come out in the tributes, along with, in particular and as we all know, his love for and dedication to his wife. He is an outstanding servant of the House and will continue to be so for the rest of the month. I hope he will accept my apologies that I will not be present on the assigned day but will know that these brief words are no less deeply and sincerely meant.
Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill
Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts(3 weeks, 6 days ago)
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The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Scott of Needham Market) (LD)
My Lords, after the Leader of the House has spoken, I will call the noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin, who is taking part remotely.
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)
My Lords, before other noble Lords contribute, I thought it would assist the House if I said a few words about the procedure and timings for this debate and the Government’s position.
Turning first to procedure, I remind colleagues that this debate should be focused on the narrow subject of the Motion—that is, the time available to debate the Bill. The purpose of the Motion before us is to allow the House to express a view on the time needed. It is not an opportunity to reopen and continue debate on the substance of the Bill and what it does and does not do. So far, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, said, we have had two days of Second Reading and many hours of Committee, and there are a further 10 Fridays scheduled for debate. I would also urge noble Lords not to repeat arguments and to keep comments brief so that this debate can conclude in good time.
Secondly, on timings, colleagues will be mindful that the House is due to sit again at 10 am tomorrow morning further to consider amendments to the Bill. Noble Lords will need to come to a decision this evening on the Motion of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. In light of tomorrow’s sitting time, I hope that the House will not sit too late. If necessary, the Chief Whip or I may return to the Dispatch Box to advise colleagues if it looks as if proceedings are not coming to a timely conclusion.
On the Government’s position on the Bill, as we have said before, the Government are neutral on this issue. This is not a Government Bill but a Private Member’s Bill. Noble Lords are considering whether, in light of the additional Fridays already provided, additional time beyond the usual sitting Friday times should be made available. I know that the House is interested in how the Government will respond to this question if the Motion is passed. I hope that noble Lords will also understand that I am not going to give any commitments at this stage. We will listen to the debate and, if the Motion is agreed, to the views of the House.
If the Motion is agreed, we will have early discussions with colleagues in the usual channels, the House authorities and my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer on the next steps. In considering those next steps, I am clear that the Bill should not take away time available for government legislation. I am sure that we are all very mindful of the impact on the staff of the House and the Members involved in discussions and debates on the Bill. I hope that this is helpful, prior to the consideration of this specific debate on the timings of the discussions to take place.
Lord Shinkwin (Con) [V]
My Lords, I cannot be present in person today because of the snow and the increased risk of fracture should I slip. I am grateful for the opportunity to speak remotely and briefly on the Motion before us. The Motion implies that, despite our already having been generous with our time to an unprecedented degree, as the allocation of so many Fridays between now and 24 April demonstrates, it would somehow be unreasonable not to allocate yet more time.
I suggest that the Motion overlooks the reason why we have had to spend so much time to date considering amendments, for surely, as with any Bill, we can only ever work with what we have been given—in this case, by the other place. The volume of amendments and the time taken to consider them therefore reflect the quality, or lack thereof, of the Bill that was sent to us.
I wonder if we really appreciate the deep gratitude of those who, unlike us, are not privileged, perhaps because they feel vulnerable because of disability or old age, and do not have a voice, so depend on us to consider their concerns. It is surely to our credit that that is exactly what we are doing. We should surely be heartened by how much it is appreciated that we take our duty to scrutinise so seriously. We are simply doing our job without fear or favour as Parliament’s revising Chamber.
In conclusion, I am reminded of a wonderfully wise Scottish saying from the 16th century, which I believe this Bill shows has stood the test of time: “You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear”. Our procedures are being followed appropriately and reasonably. If any Bill is so poorly drafted and so unsafe, surely the question is not so much whether the Bill deserves more time, but whether yet more time could transform it.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I suggest that noble Lords do not interrupt other noble Lords when they are speaking.
Baroness Jay of Paddington (Lab)
I do not back away from the phrase “heavily criticised”. I cannot believe that anybody in this House who has at least absorbed some of the media coverage of these debates has not accepted that there has been no general agreement about the positions that have been taken, and more importantly, about the way in which some of those positions have been argued. There are, of course, enormous divisions of opinion, as there have always been, but in this House, they have been—
Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)
Before the noble and learned Lord makes his decision whether to press his Motion, I simply wanted to ask the Leader of the House whether, if this Motion is passed, she believes that a new form of procedure has then been created by this House. It will no longer really be a Private Member’s Bill. We will have a situation where, as a Back-Bencher, the noble and learned Lord will have demonstrated that it is possible to take control of the scheduling of business in this House. As there have been a lot of very positive contributions both from the noble and the learned Lord and from others in response to this Motion and a desire for this House to change the way in which it is dealing with this Bill, would it be better for him to withdraw the Motion rather than create a new situation?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
The noble Baroness asks me to respond. I do not know if she was here at the beginning, when I first commented, but I was very clear that the House will be making a decision on what it thinks. If the House makes a decision that it wishes to have extra time, then it will be a matter for discussion in the usual channels to see if that is available. That is not a new procedure. I was also very clear that it is not open to the Government to provide government time for this Bill; this is a Private Member’s Bill. But the usual channels, both government and opposition, and all parties, will listen to what the House has to say and reflect on that.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
My Lords, I agree with every single word the Leader said. I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Retirement and Participation Committee
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Baroness Smith of Basildon
That: (1) It is desirable that a Select Committee be appointed to consider and make recommendations on— (a) a retirement age, and (b) a participation requirement, for members of the House of Lords. (2) In relation to these issues the Committee shall consider and report to the House on— (a) the impact of a retirement age on the House and, in particular, its size and functioning, (b) the impact of a participation requirement on the House and, in particular, its membership and functioning, and (c) options for the implementation of a retirement age and participation requirement including without primary legislation and that these options should include transitional measures, where appropriate. (3) The Committee do report by 31 July 2026.
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)
My Lords, in July I informed the House of my intention to set up a formal mechanism by which the House could consider the issues in the Government’s manifesto regarding retirement from the House and participation in our proceedings. The debates on these matters formed a significant part of our discussion on the hereditary Peers Bill and led to many noble Lords from all parties beating a path to my door, and to those of other noble Lords, with some constructive—and at times creative—suggestions for reform of the House.
In listening to that debate and those representations, I have formed the view that the House should be given the opportunity to take some ownership of how these issues could be taken forward. Following discussion and debate, I propose that a Select Committee be set up to make recommendations on retirement and participation, and to consider what steps can be taken on these measures without primary legislation and what would require primary legislation. The Motion gives effect to the commitment I made to your Lordships’ House, and I am pleased to inform the House that this has been agreed in the usual channels. I hope that this is self-explanatory, but I would like to stress three points that may be helpful.
First, the committee is time-limited. As many noble Lords noted during the debate and since, Lords reform has a rather long and impressive history of making progress quite slowly. I have therefore sought to give the committee a tight but realistic timeline for its work.
Secondly, the committee will consider the impact of these measures not only on the size of this House, but also how it functions. For example, the committee could consider the cliff edge of retirement provisions as well as other impacts.
Thirdly, the Motion specifically asks the committee to look at non-legislative solutions, as well as those that will require primary legislation. This will allow the House to move forward with consensual and pragmatic reform in good time. I look forward to hearing the committee’s recommendations. I beg to move.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I do not think that this is the occasion for a lengthy intervention, but I would like to make it clear to the House that this has been discussed in usual channels, as the Leader said. These are matters that potentially touch upon hundreds of our Members, and the consensual and pragmatic approach that she has spoken about is one that will commend itself to the House generally. The Opposition will give full support to the Select Committee in its work.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I am not sure that there is much more to say, but I am grateful to the noble Lord for the way that the usual channels across the House have conducted these discussions. I do not suppose that we will get everybody agreeing with everything all the time, but if there is a willingness to make progress, we can do so, and I am grateful for the support on that.
G20 and Ukraine
Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts(2 months, 1 week ago)
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Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
I too welcome the Statement. On Ukraine, the Leader knows of our continuing support of the Government’s efforts. I know that our Ukrainian colleagues value greatly the cross-party support in both Houses—other than some weakness from one party, so perfectly displayed in the courts in recent days. However, all three main parties here are working together. This does not prevent my Benches from pressing the Government to go further, deeper and faster in some areas—indeed, there is a duty to do so. We have been a constructive opposition since the beginning of the conflict.
It is why we press for wider sanctions, more harmful measures against the Russian war economy and a real focus on ensuring that loopholes are closed and sanctions are not circumvented. It is why we make the case as strong as we can that Russian assets, frozen for some time, need to be fully utilised after seizure, for Ukraine to use to defend itself. I cannot imagine a circumstance in which we believe that these assets should be returned to Putin’s regime, so we need to release them now for Ukraine. We have been told, on a number of occasions, that we can act only as part of either the G7 or wider forums, and yet another one has passed without clarity, so I hope the Leader can update us on when we will be able to see concrete action.
Regarding the current developments with the US, it is becoming what I might call yo-yo diplomacy; it is quite hard to grasp the White House’s intent at any given time. Russia’s response to the fairly positive and sensible moves by the Secretary of State in Geneva, as well as the UK and the coalition of the willing partners—that the Trump plan has been undermined by Kyiv and the Europeans—is directed exclusively at Trump himself. We support the Prime Minister in his efforts. We should not need to say this, but we have to: the future of Ukraine is for Ukraine to decide. Anything else is appeasement.
Ursula von der Leyen was right to say that a settlement cannot be imposed on Ukrainians and there cannot be a unilateral carving up of a sovereign European nation. The concern is that it would be a bilateral carve-up, with the White House as the other party. Our Government are doing their best with the coalition of the willing to ensure that this is not the case in our support for Ukraine, and we back up the Government 100%.
The two lines on Sudan in the Statement are welcome but insufficient. The world’s worst humanitarian catastrophe warranted only one mention in one sentence in the G20 communiqué. That is unacceptable. The world’s worst humanitarian crisis is actively facilitated by G20 members and the UK as the UN penholder. Last week in the House, I raised the need for urgent action to prevent what might be horrors on top of those we have witnessed in El Fasher; they could be in El Obeid and Tawila. I hope that the Leader can update the House on what concrete actions we, as the UN penholder, are taking. We need to spend every hour securing a country-wide arms embargo, designated safe spaces for children and mothers, no-drone zones and concrete action against the RSF, which cynically says it supports peace, and the SAF and NCP, which have ridiculed it.
Last week I called for the Prime Minister’s direct involvement with Heads of State. I hope that there was more that the Prime Minister did at the G20 than what the communiqué and his Statement indicate. If the Leader can update me, I will be very grateful.
Finally, the Prime Minister proudly reported that the UK will host the first presidency of the G20 in the coming year, for the first time since 2009. This is most welcome. However, I hope that, when it comes, we will be able to scale up our development partnership opportunity. I have reread the UK’s 2009 G20 communiqué and I was heartened that we had inserted, in paragraph 26, that we reaffirmed the objective of meeting our ODA pledges. The Budget today confirms what many of us feared: that the Government will miss the ODA target for every year of their Administration. Indeed, we now have the lowest level of ODA in 50 years, since ODA statistics were calculated. The 15% reduction in the Global Fund budget from the UK is an illustration of the fear that, on the development partnership, on seeking global economic opportunity for those who are most vulnerable and at threat, the UK Government are making us smaller on the international stage.
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their strong support for Ukraine. The noble Lord, Lord True, thanked me for repeating the Statement but I did not repeat it because I was sure that noble Lords had read it.
Comments from both noble Lords indicate the importance of unity in this House and across Parliament and parties, and the strong message that sends that we are united in our support for Ukraine. Lots of comments have been made about us reasserting our support for the sovereignty of Ukraine, which are comments we have all made time and again, and will continue to do so. If anything, as time moves on, our resolve is even stronger because of the suffering of the Ukrainian people. The sovereignty of Ukraine is a matter for Ukraine, and that cannot be repeated often enough.
However, it is not just about our support for Ukraine. We send a very strong message that Ukraine’s fight is our fight. It is hard to talk about winning or losing a war in which so many on both sides have died and suffered, but if Russia was to succeed, our security, and that of other countries across Europe, is compromised. Our fight is also the fight of the Ukrainian people, and we work together.
The Prime Minister met the coalition of the willing in London, and they met virtually yesterday; 36 countries are now signed up to the coalition of the willing and that is a very strong message to Russia and Ukraine about the strength of feeling for the just and lasting peace that is required. The noble Lord, Lord True, also made the point that it is no good trying to find a temporary sticking plaster or solution and to have to come back to this point two, three or even 10 years’ later. It has to be something that can last.
Noble Lords asked about the progress of the coalition of the willing in terms of military action. As the Prime Minister said yesterday, a lot of this is around the capability, co-ordination and command structure across the coalition. That is important; it is not just saying, “We have capability—it is there to help you”. It is working out how that works in practice, and that is what the coalition is about. The noble Lord asked about funding; I thought for one moment he was going to divert into a party-political rant about the Budget. I think today’s point is more sombre and serious; we can have that when we have our debate on the Budget. He knows, as we have said time and again, that the strategic defence review is very important to us and we look to that as we move forward with funding.
Both noble Lords asked for updates on the plan. If I understood correctly—I apologise if I am wrong—the noble Lord, Lord True, said that we should rule out the plan completely. It is for the Ukrainians to comment on what is there. There are clearly parts of the 28-point plan that were totally unacceptable and could not be accepted by Ukraine. If it says they cannot be accepted, we support it. It is right that it makes that decision. However, there are other points within the plan that it thinks it can work with and discuss further with the Americans. It is very fast-moving.
I think that during the Statement yesterday, one MP said, “Oh, there’s a deal been done. Can we try to confirm that?” No, the deal has not been done. There are ongoing discussions, and it is important that we give the Ukrainians every support we can in having those discussions on what they need. But we would never move away from supporting them, or from them deciding on their sovereignty. That is one of the most important things.
I cannot give a running commentary on where this has got to: it would be wrong to do so. We all know what diplomacy is like, and there will be lots of discussions ongoing over several days, perhaps longer. But we have to put our support, our faith and our trust in the Ukrainians, because of the suffering they have endured. The Russian community has suffered as well, yet President Putin is clearly responsible. The liability lies with President Putin. It is important we recognise that, and say to both Russia and Ukraine that that is where the responsibility and the liability lies.
I will try to answer the points that were made. Questions were asked about the sanctions. This is constantly monitored, looking at the impact of sanctions and the frozen Russian assets. Where we are coming from is that, while this war continues, sanctions continue, and we will continue to freeze assets. We are working closely with the EU Commission and our G7 counterparts to make progress.
The noble Lord, Lord True, has asked me about this before, and I cannot give him any more updates. Those discussions are making progress. I would hope to be able to come to the House at some point and say where we have got to on that. I think that we are making progress on how assets can be used, but he will understand that the impact of that will come if we work together to get to that point. That is part of the discussions that are constantly under review to make sure we can move forward.
As for Sudan, I understand that it was extensively discussed, although that probably is not reflected in the Statement at all. The suffering there is probably the worst humanitarian disaster that the world is seeing. It is hard to imagine, in so much of this, the suffering that people of Sudan are going through, and the lack of hope people must have. We fully support the work of the Quad in trying to make progress to reach some kind of agreement to end the suffering there, and the famine that ensues as well. That was extensively discussed, and was, I think, very much in the forefront of minds there.
The noble Lord also asked about international aid and assistance—ODA. May I say to him that in 2009 we had had 12 years of a Labour Government? The economy was in a better place, and the world was in a different place as well, so it does not surprise me that we were in a much better place on this issue in 2009. Our commitment to return to where we want to be, to return to how things were, remains. Our commitment has not ended, but that is not going to happen as quickly as I know he would like, or as quickly as others would like as well.
The noble Lord also asked for more information about the coalition of the willing. I would say that this is one of the most significant moves by the Government —to bring countries together, jointly leading that coalition of the willing to support Ukraine. The Defence Secretary is also bringing together 50 nations under the Ukraine Defense Contact Group. We are looking at the full range of European military capabilities. President Zelensky, who talks regularly with the Prime Minister, can be in no doubt that he has not just our sympathy and support but our total backing, and that that is not going to fail him.
Lord Dubs (Lab)
My Lords, the Prime Minister is to be congratulated on the key part he has played in the coalition of the willing. I think his efforts have helped to kill the idea of appeasement, which was in the air a week or two ago. The stench of 1938 has been eradicated, and that is a good thing—but I wonder whether I could ask my noble friend a question. Could she say a bit more about what is being done to help in the reconstruction of Ukraine? It will cost a lot of money, but I think it is important that we get our policies in place, so that a quick reconstruction of that country can be brought into being.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I thank my noble friend for his comments about the Prime Minister’s commitment. I think that, if you ever hear him speak, or see him and President Zelensky together, you know there is a bond there, and also that he feels this emotionally as well as practically in how we support Ukraine.
On the issue of reconstruction and moving forward in Ukraine, the first prerequisite is that we have a fair and lasting peace. While the Ukrainians are still facing drones and bombs, it really is not possible to make much progress on that. However, in terms of plans, one of the areas is the use of frozen Russian assets, which should be used to rebuild Kyiv and the rest of Ukraine after this war ends. But in the day-to-day lives of people at the moment, we can just imagine all the pressures, going through all the things we go through in our everyday lives, in a country facing bombs and other attacks. If we look at photographs and see films of the consequences of those attacks, we see how much harder life is for people there. So, yes, plans are being made, but they have to be against the backdrop of that peace, because otherwise the work will be lost and more will be destroyed.
Baroness Ludford (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Leader of the House for answering questions on the Statement. I fully agree with everything that has been said, especially by my noble friend Lord Purvis. Although I am in an opposition party, I also agree with the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, that the Prime Minister has been doing a splendid job on the external front, particularly in co-leading the coalition of the willing. I will not say anything about his domestic travails, as I do not want to spoil the harmony. He has been extremely stalwart. I heard what the Minister said, and I think it does come through that he feels this emotionally, not just intellectually. He is quite right.
It has been heartening, in my role as a member of the European Affairs Committee, meeting counterparts from European Parliaments in the last few months. I recall meeting Finnish colleagues and people from the French Senate, yesterday, and today, some of the delegation from the Lithuanian Parliament. That we are able to say, to note and to express the cross-party solidity of views and support for Ukraine is obviously welcome to them, and it is gratifying to be able to express that.
May I press the Minister about the use of the frozen Russian assets? I realise that discussions are ongoing, but could she give us any hint of where the current sticking point is? It is reported in the press that Belgium apparently wants guarantees. I may be out of date, but I think Belgium wants guarantees about its position, because most of these assets are located—in so far as anything is located anywhere these days—in Belgium. But is it that? Is it legal? Is it political? Can she give us any kind of time horizon? People are very impatient, and want to see these assets used for the benefit of Ukraine.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I thank the noble Baroness for her comments. She talks about domestic travails, but this is nothing compared with what the people of Ukraine are facing at the moment, and I would not want to trivialise that in any way. As she said, it is important that, across all Parliaments in different countries, it is not just the politicians and the representatives; it goes down to the people of this country. Some friends of mine feel that their lives have been enriched by being hosts to a Ukrainian family, who left Ukraine and want to return when they can. Because the politicians have been united, we have been able to lead our country on that as well.
The noble Baroness asked for further information on where the sticking point is. I cannot go into those discussions, and I think that she will understand why. Let me just say that we will ensure that everything we do on this—we want to make progress as quickly as we can—will be in line with international law and be financially and legally responsible. She will know— I am sure she has been involved in similar discussions before—that it is the case that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. That is why it is important to keep on pressing the point in order to get some progress as quickly as possible. She is absolutely right: we can focus on using the interest on those assets, but we have to look further than that for the long-term future of Ukraine.
The Lord Bishop of Leeds
My Lords, one of the principles that we apply in many debates is that we should not talk about people without them being present. Can the Minister confirm that we will continue to resist the carve-up of an independent country by two major powers? That means that we have to put pressure on the United States to see this not just as an object of interest but as something that has to involve the Ukrainians at every step.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I would hope that I have already been completely clear on that point. These are matters for Ukraine; it is not for other countries to seek to divide, or make decisions on behalf of, a sovereign country. Ukraine is a sovereign country and it has our support and backing in making its own decisions and having its own negotiations.
Baroness Lawlor (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for responding to the Statement. I will press a her little on how the arrangements for the coalition of the willing will work. The noble Baroness mentioned the three Cs —capability, co-ordination and command structure—but can she say more about how the UK will be involved in determining how its support, potential peacekeeping forces and other resources may be used?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
There is not much more I can say because these discussions are continually ongoing. The Prime Minister, when he answered questions on the Statement in the House of Commons yesterday, made clear the huge amount of ongoing military work and how that will operate in practice. These are operational matters that will have to be worked through with all the other countries, to see what part they can play. These are military plans that will be put into effect when they are needed.
Viscount Stansgate (Lab)
My Lords, I welcome the chance to discuss the Statement. This is an extremely difficult time for Ukraine—heaven knows that what they have had to live through over the past three and a half years has been difficult enough. It is also a test for the coalition of the willing. I join my noble friend Lord Dubs in paying tribute to the work that the Prime Minister has done in this regard. As this potential peace process unfolds, at what stage does my noble friend the Leader of the House understand it is envisaged that Russia and President Putin would be welcomed back into the G7, which would become the G8 again? That might be a difficult part of the process.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I think my noble friend is getting a little ahead of where discussions are at the moment. While these discussions are ongoing, the most I can say is that our support for Ukraine remains absolutely ironclad—there is no dispute or ambiguity about that. The person responsible for the illegal invasion of Ukraine is Putin; the responsibility cannot be laid at any place other than his door. He can deliver peace immediately just by withdrawing from Ukraine. Until these matters are resolved, we are getting a bit ahead of ourselves.
Lord Verdirame (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I refer to my interest in the register as pro bono counsel for Ukraine in international legal proceedings. I too pay tribute to the Government for their work and support for Ukraine. I would like some clarity on point 9 of the European counterproposal, which states:
“NATO fighter jets will be stationed in Poland”.
We do not want Russia to read this as NATO proposing that NATO fighter jets will not be stationed in places that might be seen as more controversial to the north-east of Poland, such as the Baltic states or Finland. We must be particularly careful because the 1990 Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany contained a provision that said that there would not be foreign troops in what was then East Germany. Russia maintains, to date, that by that provision we had agreed not to station or deploy NATO troops east of the Oder-Neisse. Can the noble Baroness the Leader of the House assure us that NATO will continue to deploy fighter jets in the Baltic states or in Finland, if those countries so wish?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
That is a decision for NATO to take, but I see no change in the current arrangements. The noble Lord mentioned the plan. The ongoing discussions have not yet been agreed, and when they are, the plan will become clearer. No change has been made to NATO’s current position, and the discussions are ongoing.
Lord Sentamu (CB)
My Lords, I too join the chorus congratulating the Prime Minister on what he has done. The coalition of the willing—although the phrase has an echo of George Bush Jr—started with three nations and its membership is now up to 36. That is not a simple achievement. The Leader of the House has done something wonderful, and I thank her too for answering our questions. If I were Ukrainian, I would feel that, in 1994, we gave up our nuclear weapons in exchange for a security guarantee by the United States, the United Kingdom and Russia, but when one of them went into Crimea, the other two did nothing. It requires a lot of belief that, despite Ukrainians having been betrayed before, we are now trying to fix it. Therefore, my thoughts are those of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds: are we going to stop and resist whatever happens, so that Ukraine will not be betrayed again? Having given up its weapons, we are now demanding that the country gives up bits of its land.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I fear I am in danger of repeating myself, but if it needs restating, I will do so. We have been absolutely clear that decisions on sovereignty are a matter for Ukraine. Clearly, there are points in the first iteration of President Trump’s 28-point plan that are unacceptable to Ukraine. Ukraine has asked for support with ongoing negotiations. The Prime Minister regularly talks to President Zelensky, and there is no doubt that the support of the Prime Minister and the coalition of the willing—which, as the noble and right reverend Lord said, is now made up of 36 nations—is behind Ukraine. On the one hand, there is the absolute moral principle about the sovereignty of a nation; on the other, there is the recognition that, if Russia were to get its way with Ukraine, we do not know where we would be next. It is a matter of security for the UK and for Europe. I do not know how much more I can emphasise this: it is for Ukraine to make decisions for its own sovereignty, and we will support Ukraine.
Palestinian Refugees
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)
We will hear from the Liberal Democrat Benches.
Baroness Janke (LD)
My Lords, in light of President Trump’s comments about the removal of Palestinians from Gaza, do the Government believe that the Palestinians should be given the right to return to their homes there, and what action are the Government taking about the forceable removal of Palestinians and displacement within the Gaza Strip and the Occupied Territories?
Clerk of the Parliaments
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)
My Lords, on 24 July, I informed your Lordships’ House of Simon Burton’s intention to retire from the office of Clerk of the Parliaments with effect from 1 April 2026. The recruitment process for his successor has now concluded. The unanimous recommendation of the interview board was that Chloe Kilcoyne Mawson should succeed Simon as Clerk of the Parliaments. Her appointment follows an open and external competition which attracted a wide field of high-calibre candidates. A number of internal and external applicants were interviewed by a board consisting of myself, the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition, the leader of the Liberal Democrats, the Convener of the Cross Benches and Dame Elizabeth Gardiner, former First Parliamentary Counsel. I am sure that everyone will join me in congratulating Chloe on her appointment, and we very much look forward to working with her in her new role.
Business of the House
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Baroness Smith of Basildon
Further to the resolution of the House of 25 July 2024, that for the remainder of the current Session Standing Order 9(5) (Hereditary peers: by-elections) be amended as follows: leave out “eighteen” and insert “36”.
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)
My Lords, I have a sense of déjà vu in moving this Motion today, so I will say few words about why it appears on the Order Paper.
Last July, following helpful and constructive discussions in the usual channels, the House agreed to suspend hereditary Peers by-elections for 18 months. Those 18 months have now passed, and if we were to do nothing, they would have to restart. We have all listened to the discussions that we have had recently, and the usual channels have agreed that is not desirable to restart those by-elections and that the suspension of the by-elections should continue until the end of this Session. This Motion therefore extends the suspension until the spring, when we expect this Session to end. Having listened to the debates we have had recently on this and related issues, I hope this Motion reflects the will of the House and that Members will be prepared to accept it. I beg to move.