Crime and Policing Bill

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Berger

Committee stage
Thursday 27th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

If I may, I will take away those comments. I am responsible for many things in this House, including the Bill, but some of those areas fall within other ministerial departments. I am listening to what noble Lords and noble Baronesses are saying today.

Currently, through Online Safety Act duties, providers of those services are required to undertake appropriate risk assessments and, under the Act’s illegal content duties, platforms must implement robust and timely measures to prevent illegal content appearing on their services. All in-scope providers are expected to have effective systems and processes in place to ensure that the risks of their platform being used for the types of offending mentioned today are appropriately reduced.

Ofcom currently has a role that is focused on civil enforcement of duties on providers to assess and mitigate the risks posed by illegal content. Where Ofcom may bring prosecutions in some circumstances, it will do so only in relation to regulatory matters where civil enforcement is insufficient. The proposed approach is not in line with the enforcement regime under the Act at the moment, which is the responsibility of Ofcom and DSIT.

[Baroness Berger (Lab)]

My noble friend is making really important comments in this regard, but on the specific issue of Ofcom, perhaps fuelling much of the concern across the Committee are the comments we have heard from Ofcom. I refer to a briefing from the Molly Rose Foundation, which I am sure other noble Lords have received, which says that uncertainty has been “actively fuelled” by the regulator Ofcom, which has told the Molly Rose Foundation that it intends to maintain “tactical ambiguity” about how the Act applies. That is the very issue that unites us in our concern.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for that and for her contribution to the debate and the experiences she has brought. The monitoring and evaluation of the online safety regime is a responsibility of DSIT and Ofcom, and they have developed a framework to monitor the implementation of the Act and evaluate core outcomes. This monitoring and evaluation is currently tracking the effect of the online safety regime and feeding into a post-implementation review of the 2023 Act. Where there is evidence of a need to go further to keep children safe online, including from AI-enabled harms, the Government will not hesitate to act.

If the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, will allow DSIT and Ofcom to look at those matters, I will make sure that DSIT Ministers are apprised of the discussion that we have had today. It is in this Bill, which is a Home Office Bill, but it is important that DSIT Ministers reflect on what has been said. I will ensure that we try to arrange that meeting for the noble Baroness in due course.

I want also to talk about Amendments 271A and 497ZA from the noble Lord, Lord Nash, which propose that smartphone and tablet manufacturers, importers and distributors are required to ensure that any device they have is preinstalled with technology that prevents the recording and viewing of child sexual abuse material or similar material accordingly. I acknowledge the noble Lord’s very valid intention concerning child safety and protection, and to prevent the spread of child sexual abuse material online. To that end, there is a shared agreement with the Government on the need to strengthen our already world-leading online safety regime wherever necessary.

I put to the noble Lord, and to the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, on his comments in support, that if nudity detection technology could be effectively deployed at scale, there could be a significant limiting impact on the production and sharing of child sexual abuse material. I accept that, but we must get this right. Application of detection technology that detects and blocks all nudity, adult and child, but which is primarily targeted at children, would be an effective intervention. I and colleagues across government want to gather evidence about the application of such technology and its effectiveness and impact. However, our assessment is that further work is needed to understand the accuracy of such tools and how they may be implemented.

We must also consider the risks that could arise from accepting this amendment, including legitimate questions about user privacy and data security. If it helps the noble Lord, Lord Nash, we will continue to assess the effect of detection tools on the performance of mobile device so that we can see how easy it is to circumvent them, how effective they are and a range of other matters accordingly. The Government’s focus is on protective measures within the Online Safety Act, but we are actively considering the potential benefits of the technology that the noble Lord has mentioned and others like it in parallel. There will be further future government interventions but they must be proportionate and driven by evidence. At the moment, we do not have sufficient evidence to ensure that we could accept the amendment from the noble Lord, but the direction of travel is one that we would support.

Non-Crime Hate Incidents

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Berger

Monday 24th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The Metropolitan Police has said that it will still record information collected from non-crime hate incidents, which is in line with the code of practice introduced by the previous Government in 2023. Ministers decide on issues, but we have commissioned a review of the 2023 guidance which is being undertaken by former colleagues of the noble Lord at a senior level in the police: the National Police Chiefs’ Council and the College of Policing. It is important that we receive their review and then we can determine whether we agree with the recommendations. Ministers decide, but we have commissioned a review, and it is important that we allow it to report.

[Baroness Berger (Lab)]

My Lords, over the past two years, we have seen levels of antisemitism reach new highs, and while some antisemitic hate speech reaches the criminal threshold, it can also be sub-criminal. Does the Minister agree with me and organisations such as the Antisemitism Policy Trust that documenting such incidents is central to building an intelligence picture of hate hotspots and that a simple renaming of these incidents to “intelligence reports” would help a great deal?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

It is an important use of non-crime hate incidents. As I said earlier, there have been 82,490 race hate crimes, 7,164 religious hate crimes and a range of other offences falling within that. One reason why it is helpful is that it guides where other government resources can go, such as the £70.9 million available to protect faith communities, including, regarding the issue that my noble friend mentioned, the £18 million to the Jewish community protective security grant. It has an important function, but we have to assess it in the light of the use of police time, which is what this review is about. However, my noble friend’s point was very well made, as was that of the noble Baroness, that it helps secure an intelligence picture.

Manchester Terrorism Attack

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Berger

Wednesday 15th October 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. I am starting from the basis that protest is legitimate—and that can be protest on a range of issues. People can march and protest and make their point known. However, there are thresholds beyond which harassment, criminal incitement or physical incitement to activity are criminally sanctioned. The police have made arrests and will continue to do so on a range of issues, if people cross that threshold.

What we are looking at, which I hope will assist the noble Baroness, is that at the moment the police have powers to stop, reroute and time marches that are going through or appearing in areas where there could be additional heightened tension. We know what those examples could be—but at the moment the police can do that on a one-off basis. What we are saying in the legislation that we are potentially bringing forward is that, if that continues over a period of time, the police will have additional powers to look at putting in steps to protect the community. That is important, and we shall try to do that at some pace.

The noble Baroness mentioned individuals who might be seeking to radicalise others or cause others to take action of a criminal nature. There is a threshold to that in legislation, currently, and if that threshold is crossed, individuals can be taken to court for those offences.

As a side issue to that, the Government are establishing further an antisemitism working group to provide advice to the Government on antisemitism generally. We are working closely with the government adviser on antisemitism to look at the most effective methods to tackle antisemitism, and we want to ensure that we continue to challenge extremism and, if people go over that criminal threshold, they are brought to account.

That may not satisfy the noble Baroness today, but I hope that she will recognise that the prime objective of this Government is to ensure that people can live their lives in peace, free from intimidation, harassment and religious persecution. That is for any faith, but particularly in this circumstance today for those of the Jewish faith.

[Baroness Berger (Lab)]

My Lords, my eight year-old daughter already has to go into and out of her Jewish school every day with a heavy security presence. There are security guards on the door and there are security doors in and out. She asked me if we should stop going to synagogue following the horrors of the Manchester attack. In the wake of this event—and I have listened to all the contributions—I think the ultimate priority of our Government must be to ensure that people of all faiths, including the British Jewish community, can worship and practice our religion without fear of being murdered on British soil. In that spirit, can my noble friend confirm when the Government are planning to publish an extremism strategy, what references it will have to previous publications, including the Shawcross, Khan and Walney reviews, and when they are planning to publish a hate crime action plan?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I hope my noble friend will accept that I find it very sad to hear her initial comments relating to her daughter. No child should have to go to school to be faced with people who are protecting her from those who are trying to kill her or her family. That is a deeply disturbing comment that my noble friend has made, but I understand why she has made it. It deeply saddens me that that is the society we have come to in certain parts of the United Kingdom.

I cannot give my noble friend specific answers on her points because it might sound glib if I say “shortly”, which is what I would say. I will certainly ensure that energy is put into the publication of further information to widen the response of government. I hope that further announcements will be made soon to ensure the protection of the Jewish community, particularly given the concerns that she has raised. As I have mentioned, we will be bringing forward a range of measures shortly, which were trailed by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary in the Statement earlier this week.

Music Festivals: Hate Speech

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Berger

Thursday 3rd July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I say to the noble Lord that Glastonbury is a splendid, multicultural festival, celebrating the best in British and international music, and is a showcase. He will know that the organisers of Glastonbury and Emily Eavis, who is now the main organiser, on behalf of her father who founded the festival, have also issued a statement condemning the comments that were made by the individual and are now being investigated by Avon and Somerset Police. So, we can have a good festival, but we can still have within it an appalling potential act which needs to be investigated. I still think, and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Culture still thinks, that it is important that we ask serious questions of the BBC about how it managed that incident when it was clear that it would potentially lead to the type of incident that the noble Lord, Lord Bellingham, has raised in the House today.

[Baroness Berger (Lab)]

My Lords, here we have an artist who gleefully spouted hate speech and incited violence, the largest festival organiser in the country who gave him a platform and a public service broadcaster that has yet again showed scant regard for the Jewish community, which has totally lost trust in the BBC. Does my noble friend the Minister have confidence in the senior leadership of the BBC to properly grip this issue, to implement material changes and to make sure that this does not happen again?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

My noble friend goes right to the heart of the Question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Bellingham. Individuals from any community, in this case the Jewish community, have the right to enjoy their lives without intimidation, threat or harassment, or indeed calls for death to be implemented on sections of a community. There is a role for peaceful protest and for argument about who and what happens in the Palestine-Israeli situation; that is perfectly legitimate. It is not legitimate to move that into harassment, intimidation or death threats.

With regard to the BBC, as I have mentioned, my right honourable friend is in active negotiation and discussion with the chair of the BBC. I am sure she will make further statements. Indeed, this very morning at DCMS Questions in the House of Commons, she answered further questions on this. There are certainly lessons to be learned, but I reassure my noble friend that members of the Jewish community, and indeed members of any community who face harassment and intimidation, deserve the support of the law, which is why Avon and Somerset Police are currently investigating to see whether that criminal threshold has been crossed.

Counter Terrorism Policing: Arrests

Debate between Lord Hanson of Flint and Baroness Berger

Wednesday 7th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord and can reassure him that not just British citizens but any citizens in the UK who face threats from a regime such as Iran will have the protection of our security services. It is extremely important that we do that. The noble Lord has raised the issue of the Charity Commission before, and I share his concerns around Iranian-aligned centres in the UK and the malign influence that they have on our society and on individuals. The Charity Commission is undertaking inquiries into both the Islamic Centre of England and the Al-Tawheed Charitable Trust, and we in the Home Office are tracking closely the progress of those investigations. The Charity Commission has said that it takes this matter very seriously. I know that it is examining robustly evidence of wrongdoing and making referrals to other agencies where appropriate. Following the noble Lord’s intervention, I will again put down a marker with the Charity Commission and ask about further progress. But, essentially, I hope he accepts that the case is made, the commission is on the case, we share that concern and I hope we will get speedy resolutions.

[Baroness Berger (Lab)]

My Lords, I echo many of the calls that have been made to thank our police and security services for the hard work they have undertaken, and in particular the work they did over the weekend. As has been alluded to, last year the head of MI5 said that, since 2022, the UK had faced at least 20 plots backed by Iran, which represented potentially lethal threats to British citizens—UK residents as well as Iranians living here. The arrests over the weekend suggest that more plots can now be added to that score. I echo the calls from many noble Lords across the House, including my noble friend Lord Cryer, for proscription of the IRGC. Perhaps I might press the Minister once more on proscription. I listened very closely to what he said and we look forward to the report that has just been concluded by Jonathan Hall KC. When do the Government expect to respond to that review, and will my noble friend share with the House whether he expects that in the review there will be recommendations specifically on the proscription of the IRGC? If not, what process could lead from the review to the ultimate proscription of the IRGC?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend, whom I welcome to the House: this is the first time I have had the opportunity to answer a question from her since she joined.

It is important that we keep these matters under review. As I said in response to earlier questions, we are doing that. As a result of the incidents on 3 May, the security services and the police are making further assessments, and we are updating as a result of those incidents to ensure that we can make an up-to-date assessment. We will update the House as soon as we can on the outcome of those assessments. As I have said already, this is an ongoing investigation and until the end of the investigation we cannot take specific action accordingly.

I do say, and have said, that the proscription status of any organisation is now being examined by Jonathan Hall KC. That examination is taking place because, in the past, many of the threats were from organised groups or individuals; they were not state-backed terrorist threats. Therefore, we specifically asked Jonathan Hall KC to advise the Government on how we approach proscription for organisations that might be linked directly to a state. That review is due shortly, we intend to publish it shortly and we intend to try, if possible, to publish the Government’s response at the same time. I hope that the noble Baroness will be as patient as she can be, because we will be taking action on resolving how we deal with state threats. Having commissioned Jonathan Hall KC, we want to have the results of his deliberations and to respond to them, because they will help advise the Government on the best course of action.