Transport for Towns

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 19th February 2019 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) on securing this debate. I represent Comber and Newtownards, which are small former mill towns with textile factories and a linen industry, so I well understand to what she is referring.

We see the loss of industry to foreign fields. The vast majority of people who once walked to work now travel to work, if they can, and there is little or no infrastructure to deal with that. If someone misses a bus in my constituency, they will not get another in five minutes; it will be 45 minutes or 60 minutes. If they miss their bus, they miss their work and then they will not have a job. It is little wonder that so many use their car or taxis, as there simply is not the infrastructure in place to allow people to use public transport. Access to cars has gone up six percentage points in 10 years in Northern Ireland.

The fact of the matter is that areas with unaffordable and unreliable public transport cut off the poorest families. The right hon. Lady referred to the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, which did a survey interviewing people in neighbourhoods across the north of England and Scotland. It found:

“Transport was consistently highlighted as a significant barrier to work once the trade-off between the cost, reliability and speed of local public transport; and the prospect of low-wage, insecure work was considered.”

We did a similar survey in Northern Ireland. The travel survey for Northern Ireland found that 17% of people travelled on a bus once a week, 9% travelled by bus at least once a month, 44% said they never travelled by bus, 3% travelled on a train once a week, and 6% travelled by train at least once a month. When asked what would encourage them to use local public transport, 28% said cheaper fares and 19% said more frequent weekend services. Just under a fifth said that nothing would persuade them to use local public transport. Those are the issues.

The numbers paint a clear picture: we need much better public transport links to enable people to look further for work and to enable people to travel affordably and without having to work out if the job pays enough, given the bus fare. There is no quick fix and no short-term answer; there is only a need for funding a visionary plan. For me, any city deal should have enhanced links to towns and villages as a key component. To fail on that is to fail to unlock the potential of cities and the surrounding towns. Worse than that, we are failing to bring industrial towns and villages outside of the area up to modern-day life. That is grossly unfair and changes must be made.

Flybmi

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Monday 18th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Ms Ghani]

Absolutely. Even though the airline sector is a tricky market to be in and it obviously favours larger airlines—for example, it is a little easier for them to buy fuel than it is for smaller airlines—my hon. Friend is right to say that competition is good and we should do what we can to support not only our airports, but our regional airlines.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

My hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) was in touch with the Minister to seek reassurances about this. Flybmi has said that its decision is predominantly an economic one; it was averaging only 19 people per flight, which is not sustainable for any company or business. The public service obligation air route, the first of its kind in Northern Ireland, has been in place since 2017, and the Minister has referred to it. I am thankful for the assurance that the Government will continue to subsidise the route until 2021. Will she please outline whether provision will be made to expand that commitment for a further two years beyond that to encourage other airlines to take on the contract and the route?

[Ms Ghani]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about the PSO, but it does run for this specific period, up to 2021. He noted that the Secretary of State has spoken to the local MP, the hon. Member for East Londonderry, and made a valuable point about the number of passengers per flight, which would have had an impact on the airline’s business model.

Santander Closures and Local Communities

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Thursday 14th February 2019 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

This is an important issue for me. I thank the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) for securing the debate and thereby giving us a chance to contribute. Let me also put on the record my congratulations to Scottish National party Members for continually raising issues about bank closures. Every time they have brought such debates to Westminster Hall or the main Chamber, it has come from their constituents. I thank them for highlighting bank closures, because, in doing so, they illustrate how important the banks are, including in my constituency.

I have a real issue with banks closing branches and leaving the most vulnerable in our society without access to their cash and savings. It is all well and good to say that the number of transactions carried out at Santander branches fell by 23% over the past three years, while transactions online and on mobile phones soared by 99%, but that does not say that staff members have been pushing to get that figure up, as I am sure they have.

In the last few months, the Santander branch in Newtownards, which is the major town in my constituency, moved less than 100 yards from Conway Square in the centre of town to the High Street. It has a considerable customer base and very good connections and contacts with the commercial sector. At a Santander event at the branch before Christmas, I met a young lady who was there alongside Santander to state how well it had helped her to start her business from home. That is an example of how things can be done. I put that on the record, because Santander in Newtownards is obviously in touch with its customer base. It is not one of the three branches closing in Northern Ireland.

On bank closures, the fact that a large amount of people use internet banking tells a story, but does it say that they will cease to use their local branch? I do not believe it does. They will still use the branch for all the necessary things, but now they will have to go for miles to find new branches.

The hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Ged Killen), who has left, unfortunately, tabled early day motion 2057 on access to cash. I was more than happy to sign that early day motion, as I always am on important issues. As I have said in other debates here and in the main Chamber, I understand how important it is to have access to cash. I am one of those old-fashioned guys who likes to pay their bills by cash—perhaps that is the economy in Northern Ireland.

[David Linden]

The hon. Gentleman is doing himself down. It is not just an old person thing—not that he is old. Perhaps I should not be saying this from a security point of view, but for about 10 years, since I have been married, I have operated on a jam-jar basis where I take my money out at the beginning of the month and then I have my shopping budget and my fuel budget. I wanted to put that quaint point on the record.

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[Jim Shannon]

I do not feel old, but perhaps I am of a different generation. As always, I thank the hon. Gentleman for reminding me that such things start young, as it did with my mum and dad as well. As an Ulster Scot, as I have said in the Chamber before, and perhaps in the main Chamber, “Every pound’s a prisoner.” Well, it is to me, and it probably is to the hon. Gentleman as well.

I thank the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West for tabling the early day motion on access to cash, because it is important to have it recorded. There are 23 signatures to it so far, which indicates the deep interest in the issue.

I remember when First Trust, a local bank, hired a special adviser to get people out the front of the bank au fait with online banking—the hon. Member for Angus (Kirstene Hair) referred to the online banking issue. Within six months, the news was out that the branch was closing due to an uptake in specialist online banking. Hon. Members can draw their own conclusions about how and why that happened. That was the third bank to close in the main town of Newtownards and the sixth to close in my constituency of Strangford; I have had a lot of bank closures. That is why every time SNP Members have raised issues with bank closures, I have wanted to make sure that I was in there fighting for my constituency as well. As I say, over time we have had a number of banks close.

I am really quite intrigued by what the Library briefing information that we have received says, statistically and factually. Page 3 of the briefing says:

“The only region or country of the UK in which the number of bank and building society branches increased between 2010 and 2018 was Northern Ireland”.

There must have been a lot of other constituencies getting lots of banks, because I was losing them all while they were getting them all. I am not quite sure if the statistics are correct—no, I am sure they are. I am not saying they are not true; I would not say that for one second. The briefing continues on page 3:

“Northern Ireland has 405 branches, 21.6 per 100,000 residents—the highest rate of any region or country in the UK.”

That prompts the question of what is happening in my constituency in Newtownards? Why have seven bank branches closed over the past number of years, including Danske Bank, Bank of Ireland, First Trust, and Ulster Bank?

According to Which?, the consumer group, nearly two thirds of the UK’s bank branch network has been lost over the past 30 years. The number of bank and building society branches stood at 20,583 in 1988, according to our own parliamentary records, but an up-to-date analysis by Which? of current account providers suggests that that figure has dwindled to 7,586.

I understand, again from the Library information, that three Santander branches will close in Northern Ireland: in Antrim, in Ballymoney, and on Newtownards Road in Belfast. Those branches are not in my constituency, but this year Santander is due to close 140 branches in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the reason given is that there has been a marked decrease in the number of transactions. I must say that I do all my banking in the bank or on the phone, and by physical means—using banknotes—on most occasions. That is not simply to keep business in our local branches, although that plays a part. It is also because—honestly—I do not fully trust online banking security. The hon. Member for Glasgow East referred to this issue at the very beginning of the debate and I agree with him, and some of my constituents do not trust it either.

[Brendan O'Hara]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way, and no one can doubt how hard he fights for his Strangford constituents. To justify the closure of its branch in Helensburgh, Santander’s review said that 59% of its customers have used online banking, mobile banking or telephone banking, which means, by its own calculation, 41% of its customers have not. My constituents are predominantly elderly and they are being completely left in the lurch by this branch closure in our town. That is why on Saturday I will be outside the Santander branch in Helensburgh collecting names on a parliamentary petition asking Santander to reverse this deeply harmful decision.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, and I commend him for his industry and for the fact that he will be there on Saturday. He will have no bother getting the signatures for that petition; I have no doubt about that whatsoever. However, I hope that Santander is listening to what he says, because that situation clearly illustrates to me that his bank needs to be there and the customers want it to be there, and we are all here for the same purpose. That is the critical issue for me and for others who are here in Westminster Hall today.

I often think that if the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority can allow my staff members’ names and addresses to be released by accident, or whatever way it happened, what chance does our money have of withstanding banking attacks? That did happen—it was an oversight, it was a mistake, but it still happened. Honestly, that is why I just have this wee doubt about online banking and other things.

[Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP)]

I thank the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) for giving way; I usually get his constituency the wrong way round. After some of the scandals that we have had with TSB and others locking their customers out of their online banking, is it not the case that for all this digital innovation we are nowhere close to it being reliable?

[Jim Shannon]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. In my first year and a half here in Parliament, there were a number of banking breakdowns—one would say—within the Ulster Bank. It happened not once, but twice, and perhaps even three times. Honestly, customers could not access their accounts by any means and it was absolutely ridiculous.

I am coming to an end, Mr Davies; I am very conscious of the time. Santander will retain a network of 614 UK branches, with its customers also having the option to bank using more than 11,000 post office sites across the UK. It is very important to have the post office. I have to say that the post offices in my constituency have been geared up to fill some of the gaps—in Ballynahinch, Killyleagh, Portaferry, Kircubbin and in Newtownards town—where there are post offices. Credit unions have also filled some of the gaps; it has been incredibly important to have the credit unions, as well.

I still have a real fear that this consolidation of banks to cities further isolates rural communities and adds to people’s sense of being alone, with no one to talk to and no one to help, and I believe that we are further isolating an older generation, which cannot be acceptable. That is the critical fact for me. I look to the Minister, as I always do, for a comprehensive response to the issues that we are all bringing collectively to his attention today.

I conclude by saying that I believe we must put in place a minimum expectation of service provision for customers, and if we do not ask the financial institutions to step up and step in, the service provision will continue to dwindle, jobs will be lost and the only winners will be the shareholders and those who get the dividends. I believe that reform must take place and that banks must fulfil obligations to people, and not simply to profit margins.

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[Jim Shannon]

I should have mentioned in my earlier contribution that ATMs in Northern Ireland have been targeted by criminals and thieves. We have the largest number of ATM break-ins and thefts across the whole of Northern Ireland, and the Police Service of Northern Ireland has set up a taskforce to take that on. It is happening with regularity. The people who run the ATMs then say to themselves, “Why should we bother putting an ATM there at all if it’s going to be broken or stolen from?”

[Albert Owen]

That is a very strong point, but I think the banks themselves are ripping people off if they are not giving money. Cashzone machines are charging 95p per transaction. Often they are in poorer communities. The Which? research I referred to earlier highlights that almost two thirds of bank closures have been in the poorest areas of our country—those with an average household income of less than £26,000—so the closures affect our poorer constituents.

We need to look for solutions. We have heard a few ideas about financial hubs, for example. I seriously put to the Government the proposition of using Crown post offices, because we need to look for solutions. They are closing down these buildings, which they often own and which often lie empty for some time, as in Holyhead in my constituency. Such buildings could be used as financial hubs.

I am sure my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) will be very happy that I agree with our Labour party policy to re-establish a Post Office bank—a people’s bank—and to have regional banks so that regional business can benefit. We need to go beyond just blaming the banks; we need to have a proper Government policy and framework.

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[John Glen]

I am anxious not to make my response completely about credit unions, but the 146 credit unions that exist have a whole range of governance models and levels of confidence about the future. I do not think it is my role to dictate how they change, but I am trying to find a model—there are many in Northern Ireland, as the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) will know—that can be used as a viable alternative.

I want to move on and make a little progress if I may. I said I would respond to the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock).

[Jim Shannon]

Will the Minister give way?

[John Glen]

I hope the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, but I want to focus on the thoughtful point made by the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness. He referred to his time as an adviser in the Department for Work and Pensions, and to joined-up Government and the Post Office card. It is true that universal credit will have to be paid into bank accounts, but basic bank accounts, which do not involve any fees, are available. Those a viable and accessible alternative. I am happy to take up any further points he wants to make about that, and to learn from his experience in government.

Sport in the UK

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Monday 4th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate. I am going to do something completely different from all the other speakers and speak about country sports and shooting. That is the subject that I want to put on record in Hansard.

As well as supporting those sports, I am a dedicated conservationist. Back home on the family farm, I am always thinking of new ways to conserve the habitat. I have planted over 3,500 trees, and dug two duck ponds. There is a purpose in that, to be honest, and we also maintain the hedgerows. Not only does that maintain the natural habitat but it encourages new habitats. In the past few years, we have seen the return of the yellowhammer, a bird that is much sought after in the UK, and birds of prey.

Surprisingly, shooting is worth £2 billion to the UK economy and supports the equivalent of 74,000 jobs. In these uncertain times, it is a sector that is proving its popularity and it is important to participants. It is estimated that shooters spend £2.5 billion each year on goods and services, and shoot providers spend around £250 million each year on conservation. People who participate in shooting manage 10 times more land for conservation than the country’s nature reserves. Undoubtedly, for many people, country sports play an integral part in society.

In Northern Ireland, we excel at many sports, but at two in particular: boxing and shooting. I am never sure why that is—perhaps it is because they are contact sports, but perhaps it is for other reasons. I am proud of the shooting sports in the UK and of the benefits that they bring for individual discipline as well as for group participation and team building. Shooting is not only a hobby but a necessity for many jobs. It is also a competitive sport for the shooters from the UK who take part in a variety of domestic and international competitions. At least 600,000 people in the UK shoot live quarry, clay pigeons or targets every year, including some 280,000 people who take part in clay pigeon shooting and 168,000 people who take part in small or full bore rifle shooting. They are a tremendous group of people who enjoy the sport and the community of being involved in the sport together. I often feel that many people do not give the sport the respect that it deserves. My local shooting club, at Carrowdore in my constituency, hosts a charitable event called the Swaziland cup, where amateurs and professionals come together to win the cups and raise hundreds of pounds for the children of Swaziland. The club also hosts the little choir when people come for an afternoon of safe fun and good food. I have never won the Swaziland cup, but maybe next year I will.

There is so much good being done by the shooting community and the sport is a way of keeping body and mind healthy and together. I recently read an article that listed some of the benefits. For example, it builds core strength. The Minister said earlier that sports can make us physically fitter and more mentally alert. Shooting builds core strength and helps us to build our centre. Adjusting our body weight to the balls of our feet and remaining still in our shooting stance is great exercise for our core muscles, which support proper posture. Arm strength, mental processing and efficient problem-solving are major components of shooting. It encompasses all the things the Minister referred to, including adrenaline, mental focus, stamina, running through stages, carrying heavy gear and often navigating over uneven terrain with challenging props. Practical shooting requires fitness and stamina to run between arrays, to focus on our front sight, to think about our trigger press and to control our breathing. Stress relief and a vision training mindset are all things that the Minister referred to in her introduction, and they can all be achieved through participating in shooting sports.

Shooting is certainly a sport at which we can excel. Northern Ireland does well in it, as do Scotland, Wales, England and the Isle of Man, when given the opportunity. I want to use this opportunity to express my disappointment that shooting was not included in Birmingham 2022 as an essential part of the Commonwealth games. Shooting is a great sport, whether out in the countryside or at a range, and we must send the message to the Commonwealth committee that its inclusion is vital to the integrity of the Commonwealth games.

Equitable Life

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Thursday 31st January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) for setting the scene, and the hon. Member for Leeds North East (Fabian Hamilton), who is not in his place, for his help in bringing this matter to the House for consideration. It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster). He usually sweeps up on the Government side of the Chamber and I often do the same on the Opposition side, but we often agree. And here we are again agreeing on an issue that he is interested in as the Member for Torbay, and that I am interested in as the Member for Strangford.

We all know the background to this story because we have spoken about it many times, but that does not take away one bit from the fact that, as the hon. Member for Harrow East said, it is as shocking today as it was back then. Like other hon. Members, I believe that we should honour the obligation and the pledge. The hon. Gentleman said that very clearly in his introduction. Well, I will tell the House something: I am also here to ask my Minister, of my Government, to honour that pledge. We look to the Minister for the satisfaction that our constituents need, and that is why each and every Member here is present today.



Let me gently break the issue down one more time, in the hope that the reality of the situation will provoke a greater scale of action some 20 years later. Let us remember that the Equitable Life victims are typically retired nurses, teachers, civil servants, factory workers, shop workers and small business owners who had no choice but to set up a personal pension. Before I was elected to this place in 2010, I was a Member of the Legislative Assembly in Northern Ireland, and one issue that came to my attention then was that of the Equitable Life policyholders, especially as there are dozens in my Strangford constituency. Unfortunately, some of them have passed on, so they never had the satisfaction of seeing this being addressed. I am here to uphold the policies of the people who are still living and to express some disquiet about those who have not had that satisfaction. With all our busyness as Assembly Members and MPs, I tried to address this matter along with many other Members, because this is not just Jim Shannon; this is everybody together—Members of all parties, on both sides of the Chamber—recognising that a wrong has to be righted.

There are people who have worked hard and worked away to secure their retirement, but to date almost 1 million pension savers have received less than a quarter—some 22%—of the losses they incurred when the Equitable Life Assurance Society nearly collapsed. Just before I was elected to this place in 2010, I was contacted by people in my constituency who had been stung by the Equitable Life scandal, and they all pointed to the fact that the parliamentary ombudsman clearly concluded in 2008 that the victims’ loss was directly attributable to a decade of serious, serial regulatory maladministration. In fact, just last year the Treasury admitted that it was culpable for the scandal. That is the story, so we look again to the Minister for his response.

In 2010, I can well remember the Government accepting that victims’ losses amounted to £4.3 billion, and I was disappointed at the allocation of £1.5 billion for compensation—a decision that was justified on the basis of the perilous state of the public finances, as other Members have mentioned. I was a member of the APPG that secured a small victory in 2010 with the passage of the Equitable Life (Payments) Act 2010 and the establishment of a scheme to pay limited compensation to qualifying Equitable Life members. But this payment was not enough, and the people who are missing out are the most vulnerable. The compensation amounted to only 22.4% of the relative losses of 895,000 traced pension savers. This was the sum left after compensating the people with annuities who had already retired. Ensuring that this large cohort of pension savers receive the unpaid balance of the full 100% of their relative losses would cost £2.6 billion. May I suggest that, when our finances are better, this small figure should be considered in order to bring the situation to a conclusion?

In the 2013 Budget, a cohort of 9,200 with-profits annuitants who took out contracts before 1992 received only £5,000 each, or £10,000 if they were eligible for pension credit. I stand today to support the call for these victims, who are the oldest and most vulnerable, to be afforded the same treatment as their younger counterparts, who bought their annuities later. We have a duty to deliver this. It would cost an estimated £100 million and could be funded today from the unspent £140 million in the Treasury’s coffers from the current scheme. If the money is there, let us do what is right. It seems like simple mathematics to me.

I am well known as someone who does not advocate borrowing like there is no tomorrow. I have a bit of Ulster Scots in me—every pound’s a prisoner. We are very careful in what we do, and that was instilled in me by my mum and dad.

[Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP)]

Only the good book.

[Jim Shannon]

Absolutely. Joking aside, the mathematics are plain. I understand that it is my children and grandchildren who will be paying off our debts for their whole lives, and I am supportive of efforts to reduce the deficit, although this cannot be done at the expense of those who are vulnerable and ill. More focus should be put on the higher rate tax bracket, but that is a debate for another day.

We have brought down the deficit and are no longer in a position of a financial crisis. I thank the Government for that because they worked hard to make it happen, and we support them—well done. Therefore, there could well be a time when we can do what is right by every person affected by the maladministration.

A briefing provided to me has outlined the fact that Equitable Life victims were pushed to one side as a direct consequence of the timing of the 2008 financial crisis, which saw the UK’s banking corporations bailed out while hard-working and responsible pension savers took the hit. Now that the Government have sold their interest in Lloyds and are reducing their stake in RBS, it would be fitting to use a small portion of the money recouped to finally settle the acknowledged debt to Equitable Life victims. There is a clear cross-party consensus, from right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber who have a real heart for their constituents—for Equitable Life members who have policies that need to be delivered. It is so important that we honour that pledge, but to be able to do this we must be able to retain the necessary information.

Like other Members, I ask the City Minister to guarantee that Her Majesty’s Treasury and other relevant agencies will retain indefinitely the necessary data—addresses, policy numbers and amounts paid—to make the further future repayments that we are calling for. If he were to provide this assurance on the Floor of the House, it would provide a great deal of comfort to Equitable Life victims that there is hope for the future. I say very gently to everyone here that our duty is to deliver for our constituents. We are in this House because they voted for us, and we are here today to put forward their case. It is a collective decision of all Members present to request that these things happen.

Time has beaten me but I must stress one last time, on behalf of the Democratic Unionist party, that these people are victims. We have outlined wrongdoings and maladministration, and have paid out a small amount of money that is due. If we are in the position to do more, we must ensure that we do. But, more importantly, we must send the message that we are actually willing to do that; that it what it is really all about.

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[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the right hon. Lady for her point of order. I am afraid that I was not here to hear what the Leader of the House said. It is not for the Chair to rule on possible discrepancies, if there are any, between statements from one Minister or another. However, she has put her concern on the record. The Treasury Bench will have heard her concerns. There is obviously the opportunity at business questions next week to raise this, but in the meantime if further clarification is required I am sure that the right hon. Lady will know that there are various ways in which she can raise that in the course of next week.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was here for business questions and I had the opportunity to hear the response from the Leader of the House. Perhaps my hearing is not as good as everybody else’s, but I heard her say that it would take place the next day. That was the assurance, which was similar to what the Prime Minister said. Perhaps I heard her wrong, but I can say genuinely that I heard her confirm that, and I want to put that on the record.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

The hon. Gentleman has put his finger on the different interpretations that have been made of what the Leader of the House said. However, as I say, those on the Treasury Bench will have heard that there is perhaps a little confusion about exactly the position, and that it might be wise to clarify that before too long.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I feel sure that the House will want to hear the Strangford Zebedee. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) has been bouncing up and down on virtually every question; I do not want him to feel socially excluded.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

They always wish to hear the Strangford perspective on life, but that is by the bye.

Will the Chancellor outline the possible negative effects that reducing the deficit could and would have on the defence budget in the next three years?

[Mr Hammond]

The Government have made a commitment to maintain the real-terms value of the defence budget at 2% of our GDP, increasing defence spending in real terms in every year. We have no intention of changing that commitment to UK defence.

Balanced Budget Rule

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd January 2019 Westminster Hall

[Lee Rowley]

I could not concur more with my hon. Friend, as I will address in my next paragraph. Putting this into context, about 8% of all current Government spending is diverted towards debt servicing. In 2015, that made interest payments the joint fourth largest proportion of spending by the UK after health and welfare, and on a par with defence. Spending on education, the police and transport pales in comparison with the budget allocated to debt interest. That budget could be used, as my hon. Friend has just outlined, for myriad other more socially useful activities, such as paying for a hospital to be built every four days, or for approximately 2,500 nurses, police or teachers to be hired every day throughout the year. For those of us with a more centre-right political outlook, the £45 billion spent on interest costs in 2015 could even have been used to reduce the size of the state through tax cuts, perhaps as large as 8% or 9% in the standard rate of income tax. If the populace actually knew that such a significant chunk of the taxes they paid every year was being used to pay for spending chalked up 20, 30 or 50 years ago, would they be content doing the same or worse for their children, given the sacrifices and opportunity costs involved?

We know what the problem is, so why do we not just do something about it? Why do we need a legislative solution for this issue? The problem is that we as a country are not that good at stopping adding to our debt. Our Labour friends—who have temporarily deserted the Chamber—have a tendency to spend money without a huge amount of regard for the implications. My party usually ends up having to clean up the mess. Even on my side, there are not insignificant number of people who cannot resist the temptation to spend when it comes down to it.

Our parliamentary system and representative democracy are excellent at pushing the cause of individual spending requirements, many of which, I do not contest, are no doubt noble. Yet there are few people who will exercise proper restraint or promote proper fiscal responsibility to ensure that all of these myriad pots of money are truly paid for. It is always tomorrow’s problem. Mañana, mañana, as they say. The numbers show just that: over the last century, the United Kingdom has consistently increased its national debt and its deficit spending. Both in absolute terms and as a proportion of GDP, the UK’s debt burden has grown significantly since the turn of the 20th century. The recent political consensus in the UK demonstrated a clear disregard—if we are honest—for the consequences of deficit spending.

Prior to the second world war, deficit spending tended to be closely correlated with war and national defence. In more than half the years between 1900 and 1939, the UK ran an absolute surplus, including during much of the late 1920s, during economic crisis. Since 1945, however, the achievement of a surplus in the UK’s national spending has been relatively rare. Only 13 out of 71 years saw the deficit being reduced, and on only two separate occasions—the late 1980s and the late 1990s—has the UK run surpluses for more than a couple of years at a time.

If all that sounds like one long criticism, it is not intended that way. It is just a statement of fact. Whether poverty or plenty, feast or famine, there is one almost universal constant: the Government spend more than they take in. That is not unique to the United Kingdom, but a feature of western democracy: red ink reigns supreme. The main variable in western liberal democracies is whether they overspend by a little or a lot. France has never run a Government surplus as a proportion of GDP since the 1970s, nor has Italy. The United States has managed to do so only once since 1960. Even Canada, one of the more enlightened in tackling public debt, has only managed to run surpluses in less than one third of financial years since the 1970s. The Maastricht protocol on excessive debt procedure says that countries should not exceed a 3% borrowing ceiling. Just think on that for a moment: there is a protocol that automatically sets an expectation of overspending—just that it is not excessive. And we wonder why debt has significantly increased in most western democracies over the past 30 years. There is an urgent requirement, over the long term, to address this inherent deficit bias in democracies.

The idea that we need to take more drastic legislative solutions is not that new; it is just that we have never properly applied it to national spending before. Sure, the Government have their charter of budget responsibility and an equivalent office creating the data and watching what is happening. Yet the charter requires people only to identify that they are changing policy. It does not really hold people to account or limit them.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

On changing policy, I am very aware of where we are at this moment in time. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that a post-Brexit economy will provide an incredible opportunity to expand and invest, that the Government must be prepared to invest in our own people, and that if we must borrow to do so, it must be done in a reasonable and controlled fashion? As he has said, we must be prepared to back our own people. I hope that the Minister will respond positively and say that he will ensure that there will be Government investment in our businesses. That is very important.

[Lee Rowley]

I completely agree that we have a big job to do after Brexit, in terms of ensuring that our infrastructure works and that our country is well prepared for the future and has the necessary flexibility to take the opportunities that will come our way in the coming decades. If, from a Government perspective, we need to spend in order to do that, we should do so. I am not here to disregard Government spending—it is a force for good. However, it has to be done properly, it must have a clear outcome and we have to pay for it.

Cashless Transactions

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd January 2019 Westminster Hall

[Matt Warman (Boston and Skegness) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered cashless transactions.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship in a debate that is already better attended than I had suspected it might be, Mr Gray. It used to be said that cash is king, but in reality that is no longer the case. Politicians used to talk of the pound in your pocket, but today just three out of 10 transactions use cash, whether coins or notes; in 2008, it was six out of 10. The Access to Cash report sponsored by, but independent of, LINK, estimates that just one in 10 transactions will use cash by 2033. I do not intend to call for that to be slowed down, but rather to be sped up. Although 98% of adults in the UK have a debit card and the opportunity to use a cashless or digital transaction, some 46% of them still do not like the idea of a cashless economy, even though there is clear evidence that the vast majority of people would be better off in a cashless world.

The so-called poverty premium costs each of our constituents hundreds of pounds a year. Those hit hardest by using cash and sticking to the tried-and-tested methods are disabled people who live in medium-size market towns, where it is estimated to cost over £500 a year not to take advantage of the better tariffs and so forth available online. There is a huge premium on people who are not taking full advantage of the latest digital technology and contactless cards.

There are 2.2 million people who say that they rely day to day on cash. Only 2.5% of those in higher income groups say they do, compared with 15% of those earning under £10,000 a year. There is a clear sense that the greater number of people relying on cash in their everyday life would benefit most from not using it so much. That is why I am calling on the Minister to speed up the Government’s bid to increase the use of the cashless economy, which has not yet yielded the results that we might want to see.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for bringing this issue to Westminster Hall; I am very aware of it in my rural constituency. Does he agree that it is essential that we ensure the viability of cash transactions due to continuing cyber-security issues? This is especially true in the case of rural areas such as my constituency of Strangford, where people cannot rely on the availability of digital means at all times. In other words, cash is king in my constituency and it cannot be ignored.

[Matt Warman]

The hon. Gentleman is currently right, but we will all be better off if we hasten the transition, so that people do not have to rely on cash and all of our constituents can use more secure and efficient digital means, whether they live in rural areas such as my constituency and his, or in big cities.

[Matt Warman]

I completely agree. Much of this is about trust. It is true, as I said, that 46% of people do not trust a cashless society, whether that involves crypto-currencies—although I suspect most of those 46% are not wholly familiar with every detail of that—or simply contactless cards. Part of this is about regulation; much of it is about trust.

It is worth examining in a small amount of detail why people want to continue to use cash. About 20% say it makes them feel more in control, 16% say it helps them with budgeting, and 3% want to hide their guilty pleasures—perhaps we had best not dwell on those. Some 5% do not trust online transactions at all, and 3% just do not trust the banks. That is a real issue if this trend is to be mitigated for vulnerable groups where needed and if the broader society is to take advantage of cashless transactions.

Countries such as Sweden already have twice the level of cashless transactions as we have in the UK, and their authorities have taken conscious action to slow down the pace of cashless-ising, to ensure that vulnerable groups are not left behind. It is also reported that 4,000 people in Sweden have had chips inserted under their skin, so that they do not even have to use cards—I am not sure that I would go quite that far, although I know the Minister might want to consider it as a personal experiment.

We are at risk of ending up with two cultures: those who embrace a wholly digital way of living, and those who do not. There has been an 8.5% decline in the use of ATMs in London, but just a 2% decline in Northern Ireland and a 2.9% decline in my area of the east midlands. There are very different views on what is important for people and on the pace of change.

It is instructive to look at what people use cash for. Figures from the LINK report show that just 13% of people pay their rent in cash—disproportionately those on lower incomes. Some 85% said that they use cash to pay for taxis, which is a particularly instructive example. That is obviously a nationwide figure rather than a conversation about London taxis, on which we could perhaps spend many hours. Taxis are a particularly interesting example because the giving of cash to a driver makes them more vulnerable to theft and to being a target for crime. It also means that they are responsible for ensuring that they have change, so they have to carry a float even before they have taken any cash. It is of course true to say that it would be naive in today’s society to get into a cab outside London and expect the driver to take a card transaction. This is a complex landscape.

Some four out of five people say that they pay their gardener—if they have one—in cash. I am sure that neither the Minister nor I wish to cast aspersions on gardeners, but there is a suspicion that there are parts of the economy where cash is used to avoid the taxation that I know he is very eager to collect at every possible opportunity. There are a whole host of reasons to promote cashless transactions, whether it is ensuring that people are at less risk of the crime that goes with cash or that businesses are at less risk of the increasingly expensive costs of handling cash.

[Jim Shannon]

I am mindful that in my constituency of Strangford, where we have a fishing sector, there is a tradition of boat owners paying their crewmen in cash. There has been a reduction in the number of banks across the whole of the Ards peninsula. Seasonal workers are also paid in cash. I put forward to the hon. Gentleman that one size does not fit all and that there are exceptions. We need to be aware of that, as does the Minister.

[Matt Warman]

I agree. In a sense, I make the same point that I made before, which is that currently there are a large number of exceptions and it would actually be in the interests of the many seasonal, low-paid and often zero-hours contract workers in my constituency to be paid digitally, because they would be less at risk of crime and the businesses that they work for would have less of the handling costs associated with cash. We are already at the point where the declining ATM network that those people rely on is struggling to make a viable business case to those who use it with such diminishing enthusiasm.

Grassroots Football Funding: Wembley Stadium

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd January 2019 Westminster Hall

[Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the future of Wembley Stadium and the funding of grass roots football.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. Football, as we know, is our national sport. We invented the modern game and have the most popular league in the world, viewed by millions around the globe. I grew up playing and watching the game, and while I still play and watch when I can, I also have an interest in ensuring that our national sport can be enjoyed and participated in by as many people as possible at all levels.

Members will recall last year’s controversial proposals to sell Wembley Stadium to the American businessman, Shahid Khan. At the time, the Prime Minister rather dismissively told me that the proposed sale was a private matter. I have to say that I consider the sale of the national football team’s stadium—the home of the FA cup final and countless other important matches—to be a matter of some considerable public interest.

The deal did not go through in the end, but we need to talk about the consequences. The sale falling through has left a hole where the grassroots strategy was. The main justification put forward by the Football Association for the deal was that it would have enabled the release of hundreds of millions of pounds to fund grassroots football. Although I was a little bit sceptical about the deal and what it would mean in the long term, because sale and lease-back agreements often do not work well in the long run, it was beyond doubt that it would have enabled significant investment in grassroots football. It is important for us to discuss how to replace that funding.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

One of the greatest footballers who ever graced the football field in this world, certainly in my lifetime, was Geordie Best. Pelé, another of the greatest footballers in the world, said that his favourite footballer was George Best. Geordie Best was a product of local academies, played his football in the back streets of Belfast and became a world star. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that those are the sort of people we want to encourage?

[Justin Madders]

As a Manchester United fan, I would say that, if we can encourage more George Bests, I will certainly be very pleased to see that. I will talk a little more about how we can encourage more youngsters to participate a little later.

Football in this country is in a very strong position. The premier league is the envy of the world. Most of the world’s top players come here, and England’s youth teams have enjoyed unprecedented levels of success in recent years. Whether those kids who have enjoyed great success with the national team recently get to play at the highest level remains to be seen. We should be concerned about the declining number of home-grown players, such as George Best, coming through the leagues, although I am sure someone with that talent would still make it today.

About 35% of players who started games in the premier league last season were English, on average. That represented a huge reduction on the 69% of English players who started games in the inaugural season of the premier league in 1992-93. There are huge questions about how professional clubs operate and about how our younger players can hope to get a chance against the huge influx of imported superstars, and I also sometimes wonder about the effect of giving a 17-year-old who has never played for the first team 10 grand a week—what does that do to their chances?—but that is probably outside the scope of today’s debate.

What we can do today is discuss how to improve the game below elite level. One in six grassroots matches were cancelled last year, and I recall my own kid’s games getting repeatedly cancelled over the winter period, although I do not think it was a particularly extraordinarily bad winter. Cancellations have a detrimental effect on both an individual’s and a team’s development, and we need to encourage that development. There are of course plenty of distractions and reasons why kids may find something else to do rather than play football, but we should do what we can to support it by encouraging a little bit more of the wealth that flows through the game to trickle down to the grassroots. We cannot expect the superstars of tomorrow to emerge if we are not prepared to invest in them.

One thing we can and, in my view, must do is improve the standard of facilities for younger players of all abilities, and for everyone involved in grassroots football. We should not tolerate second-rate facilities in our national sport. We know the pressure local authorities are under to balance the books and how there is little left for discretionary spending on improving sporting facilities. Pitches are often in poor condition, with poor drainage and areas of the pitch that are more mud than grass. Many pitches have little or no changing facilities connected with them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mims Davies]

I thank my hon. Friend for that point. As we head towards the spending review, our Department is consistently urged to hold conversations with the Treasury.

The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston raised issues relating to volunteers. I echo his love for the game. People in our communities give so much to the grassroots, and that should be encouraged because of what it gives to our children and to the game as a whole. My father-in-law did exactly that as a football ref in Wales for many years, and he also organised games for homeless youngsters. It is important that we recognise the volunteering that takes place up and down the country. It is absolutely vital. Football is not just a business; it has a responsibility to the grassroots, as we all do.

I absolutely hear the message regarding the safeguards for Wembley ticket pricing, future purchase and controls. I will come on to some of those issues further into my speech, but as we heard earlier Wembley is iconic in terms of what it means to football and to us as the public. It is important that we have a national stadium that is able to host the biggest sporting events; Wembley has delivered that over many years, and we want it to continue to do so. UEFA’s decision to hold seven matches, including the semi-finals and finals of next year’s European championship, is proof that Wembley remains a top-class venue, hosting some of the world’s biggest and most important sporting events. If we are to bid for any future major sporting tournaments—Members might know what I am alluding to—we will need to make sure that we have the right stadium for World cup finals, one that resonates with the rest of the world. That is essential.

Last year, when the FA said that it was considering selling Wembley Stadium as a means of generating extra funds to re-invest in the grassroots, the Government were, naturally and rightly, keen to listen. Nobody would argue that a sport with more than 2 million regular participants could fail to be further helped by the promise of such additional funding. However, at the same time we recognised that Wembley has a special place in the heart of football fans. When listening to the proposal, the Government’s prime consideration as a public funder of the stadium was to protect the public interest, as is absolutely right. Going back to the hon. Gentleman’s point, custodianship of it would be absolutely important in any future new arrangement, no matter who owned Wembley stadium. The stadium should always be protected for future needs. The fact that the FA executive was considering the sale of its most prized asset raised more than a few eyebrows. In its response, the executive was clear in its view that the sale would free up funds to help provide greater financial support, which it felt was needed to help the sport from the bottom up.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the Minister for her response to the debate secured by the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders). Does she not feel, as some of us do, that we should not sell our national stadium and that it should be retained because of its importance? What we could do—I believe the hon. Gentleman referred to this—is take a revenue from transfer fees. That would create some money that could then be used for the grassroots football we want to see. There are ways of achieving things without having to sell the national jewels.

[Mims Davies]

I absolutely see the point that the hon. Gentleman is making. Ultimately, we have a stake in the matter and we will very much be keeping it on the radar. We are not in the place he suggests at the moment, but I will continue to make the case I have made so far in my speech. Whatever the FA does, we have a stake in ensuring that it is absolutely right for football as a whole.

We have heard some of the headline statistics. Only one in three grass pitches is of adequate quality and one in six matches is, sadly, called off due to pitch quality. England has only half as many 3G pitches as Germany. Where there is an opportunity to see more coming into the game, it is absolutely right to take it. We should look at the active lives survey and recognise that what has been cancelled this season may impact on the opportunities our youngsters have to participate. The statistics are a harsh reminder that, despite the unrivalled success of our domestic football at the elite level—we cannot forget the premier league, which is the wealthiest and most globally popular league—there is still a way to go in ensuring that we replicate that consistent success in what we provide at the grassroots level. We must and will provide playing opportunities across our towns and cities so that current and future generations can enjoy football.

British Bioethanol Industry

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 16th January 2019 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) for securing the debate. He and I have a long friendship in this House: we both came here in 2010; we are both Leicester City football supporters—the last two matches have not been good for us, but we hope for better days, and we are still seventh in the league, which at the end of the day is not too bad—and, I am pleased to say, he raises many issues on which I fully and wholeheartedly support him, as I do on this occasion.

Over the years, many Members have endeavoured to pursue and promote this issue, including the hon. Gentleman. I thank them for those endeavours. We have a new Minister responsible for the subject in the Chamber, which I hope is a chance for a positive response. As other Members have done in their contributions and interventions, perhaps she will plot a way forward that can deliver what we have discussed.

I declare an interest as a member of the Ulster Farmers Union, a sister body of the National Farmers Union. I will make some short comments from the point of view of the farmers union. I am keen to see how we can all benefit from the promotion of the bioethanol industry sector across the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, because if we all pursue the policy, we should all get the benefit.

E10 is a type of petrol that contains up to 10% bioethanol. At the moment, E5 is commonplace on UK forecourts, and it contains up to 5% renewable bioethanol. E10 and even higher grades of bioethanol blends are commonplace in other countries around the world, such as E25 in Brazil—Members might have seen correspondence on that in the papers recently.

E10 legislation would increase demand for UK-derived feed wheat through the increased production of bioethanol. That would decrease the surplus in exportable feed wheat and, in turn, increase the amount of the co-product DDGS, or distillers’ dried grains with solubles, received by the livestock sector as high-protein, high-quality feed. At full capacity, the bioethanol industry in the UK would utilise about 2 million tonnes of feed wheat, with about 50% of that intake returned as DDGS. That provides the opportunity to create 1 million tonnes of UK-derived, high-protein animal feed while offering more protection to arable and livestock farmers from the perils of global commodity markets.

When we look at the intricate detail of the proposition, there is a real possibility of deriving benefit in many sectors, and in many ways, from the development of bioethanol. It seems to me that it needs serious consideration. We therefore look to the Minister for a wholesome and full response.

I was heartened by the work of my local council and its recycling endeavours. As an easy-to-grasp illustration of what it had done, for example, it equated its work on increasing recycling and lessening waste to the number of cars taken off the road—it put it in simple language. The UK-wide introduction of E10 would be the equivalent of removing 700,000 cars from the roads, or 3 million tonnes of CO₂. The information provided to me states that the roll-out of E10 would be the fastest and most effective way for the UK to reach its climate change targets, especially as E10 can be used in hybrid electric cars.

Successive Governments have encouraged people to purchase diesel vehicles, and now they tell them not to, so perhaps we have here a method of addressing that. I emphasise to the Minister and other hon. Members taking part in the debate that we need to spread the job opportunities that could come off the back of this industry across the whole of the United Kingdom. We need to encourage the farming sector, too, which has a key role to play. Will the Minister tell us what incentives, strategies or plans are in place to encourage farmers to look more at the bioethanol industry?

Ethanol reduces greenhouse gases emissions by up to 90% compared with conventional fossil fuels. Indeed, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change called for a threefold increase in the use of biofuels in transport by 2030. That briefing went on to note that, at the COP24 summit, renewable ethanol was reported to be the largest contributor to progress in the transport sector, but I believe more can be done.

To conclude, I agree with the hon. Member for Scunthorpe. More needs to be done to understand how best to better use resources to live up to the environmental pledge that we have made, and how to make better use of those resources to benefit us all. It is all about benefiting us all, as well as climate change and addressing those issues. We should be pushing forward with great urgency. I thank the hon. Gentleman again for bringing this issue to the Floor of the House. The debate is much needed and much appreciated, and I look to the Minister to ascertain whether the matter will be acted on in the way that those in the debate wish it to be.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ms Ghani]

That meeting is in place with the Teesside massive, as I am referencing them now. I completely understand the frustration about not having a date, but we need to make sure that we get this absolutely right. A meeting is a place and that can be raised directly with the Minister.

It is not agreed that there is conclusive evidence to show that switching from E5 to E10 will have a significant impact on air quality but I would like to assure Members that, as with all policy on low-carbon fuels, we will continue to assess our policies and support against the ambitious targets we have set to improve air quality and reduce carbon emissions.

If we were to mandate E10, it could give suppliers an opportunity to meet those carbon budget targets in a more cost-effective way. That is why the Department has consistently made clear its desire to work with industry in considering an E10 roll-out. The Government are mindful that rolling out E10 is a huge change to the UK petrol market. If such a roll-out were not managed well, it could impact on motorists across the UK. It is important that we prioritise consumer acceptance and ensure the vehicle fleet, consumers and retailers are ready. As was raised throughout the debate, that is a big responsibility for Government to undertake. We need to make sure that everybody is ready and any decision we make is not rushed.

I would like to thank everyone who contributed to the debate for taking the time to further inform our thinking on E10. I must not forget the intervention made by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon).

[Jim Shannon]

It was a speech, actually.

[Ms Ghani]

Forgive me. I know that the hon. Gentleman has spoken very positively about the bioponics of E10. The bioponics will be accounted for in our response to the consultation when it is published.

I thank everyone for contributing to the debate. The use of biofuels is and will remain a challenging policy area. However, this must never stop us from finding the right balance between maximising the contribution that low-carbon fuels can make to reducing greenhouse gas emissions and taking into account the interests of consumers.