Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill

Lord Berkeley Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 12th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

I have listened very carefully to this debate. I was particularly interested in the comments from my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer about training people in Rwanda. I think he said there were two weeks of training. For any treaty to work, it must be between countries that are equal. My impression is that we are telling the Rwandan Government and people what to do, putting pens in their hands and making them sign without properly training them and giving them the experience to act equally to what we are looking to do ourselves. I may be wrong—perhaps the Minister can put me right.

[Lord Stewart of Dirleton (Con)]

I think the noble Lord overstates the matter. Advice and assistance are being provided to assist a country to shape its laws and culture in a way which is consistent with ours. The work Rwanda has undertaken is substantial. Work has been done in response to the decision of the Supreme Court, albeit, as my noble friend Lord Howard of Lympne pointed out, that that decision ultimately related to refoulement, which is expressly covered in the treaty.

Private International Law (Implementation of Agreements) Bill [HL]

Lord Berkeley Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments & Ping Pong (Hansard) & Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 19th November 2020 Lords Chamber

The reason why this is so important is because, if regulations are laid, the House will itself want to consider whether the subject matter of the regulations makes it inappropriate for the Government to proceed by way of delegated, rather than primary, legislation. The committees of this House—particularly the Constitution Committee and the Delegated Powers Committee—and the House itself will want to take account of those consultation responses when forming their views. Again, I thank the Minister very warmly. I hope he can confirm my understanding on these issues.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to be able to participate in this debate. I join other noble Lords in welcoming the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stewart. I am grateful for the time he spent with me and the Commons Minister Alex Chalk MP discussing what I am about to talk about. I also congratulate my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton on his birthday today.

My interest is in something called the Luxembourg Rail Protocol, which we have all agreed is an item of private international law. The protocol is sponsored, along with the Cape Town convention, by the organisation UNIDROIT—I hope I have the right pronunciation. The UK is a full member of this organisation. The purpose of this rail protocol is very similar to a successful one that has existed for the air sector for many years. It is to do with moveable equipment: the financing, recognition, protection and enforcement of creditor rights in relation to equipment that can move. I spoke briefly about this in Committee on the Trade Bill, which I shall return to, but obviously, if investors want to financially support equipment that can be moved anywhere around the world, they want to have some comfort that they know where it is and will get their due money back or whatever.

I recall, from my experience in the railway industry about 20 or 30 years ago, that there was a time when rail wagons got as far as Italy and sometimes never came back. It is not like that today, but it might be like that in other parts of the world. It is really important for UK businesses—not only those that operate or own the relevant bits of equipment but also the export business that will come. I am advised that this needs to be done before the end of the year to provide continuity.

There has been quite a lot of debate here—and in our discussions with Ministers—as to whether this needs primary or secondary legislation. Other noble Lords with much greater experience than I have been discussing it this afternoon. I originally put down an amendment in Committee on the Trade Bill, and the Minister, the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, said he was very supportive of fitting the Luxembourg Rail Protocol into UK law, but thought that the Trade Bill was not really the right place for it. He said it would be much better if it were done as a statutory instrument under the scope of this Bill, assuming that the text of this Bill allows it to happen. I know that there have been planned discussions between Ministers here and Ministers in the Department for Transport, because obviously they will have to promote some secondary legislation, but the important thing now is for the Minister, when he comes to wind up, to give the strongest assurance that the Government are empowered under this Bill—or Act, as it will be—to adopt the Luxembourg Rail Protocol through secondary legislation, and that he will do all he can to encourage the Department for Transport to get this moving so that we have a statutory instrument by the end of the year. I know there is a big queue of legislation, but it would be really good if that could happen. Given that so many Ministers have said to me that they want this to happen and that it is good for businesses—I have not heard anyone saying that it should not happen—I hope that the Minister will be able to give me the strongest assurance that he can.

[The Deputy Speaker (The Earl of Kinnoull) (Non-Afl)]

Does anybody else in the Chamber wish to speak? I call the noble Lord, Lord Mance.

Brexit: Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration

Lord Berkeley Excerpts

Monday 14th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. I see the latest exchange of letters between the EU and the Prime Minister, and the advice from the Attorney-General as just window dressing—aspirational, but having very little meaning. I compare it to a vision of Neville Chamberlain coming back from meeting Hitler, saying, “Peace in our time”. It was peace in our time, but it just delayed things for a bit longer. This is what we have now—just delaying things for a few more years. Today and on other days we have discussed endlessly the question of Northern Ireland and southern Ireland and where the frontier is. If we have a different single market and customs union between us here and the Republic, we will have a frontier somewhere. It may be in the Irish Sea; it may be between Northern Ireland and the south. But it will be somewhere, unless we somehow integrate. We should be told, if we are not having a hard border, what are we going to have? It is pretty fundamental.

What did the public actually vote for in the referendum? To leave the EU. It seems that the Prime Minister and her Cabinet have since added several red lines that are very unhelpful to the economy and people’s understanding of what may happen. I do not think it is what the people voted for in the referendum. To give a couple of examples, there is a continuing obsession with immigration, and an inability to separate asylum seekers—enormous numbers, coming in the shape of 20 people in one boat—from the hundreds of thousands who come from other parts of the EU to work here, very hard and very well, most of them sending money home to help wherever they come from. The NHS, agriculture and the hospitality industries spring to mind. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, talked a lot about the agricultural sector. But considering that something like 90% of the workers in slaughterhouses come from Bulgaria, who will replace them? Who will pick our fruit and veg? I think Michael Gove, speaking at the Oxford Farming Conference last week, said that it will be all right because everything will be automated. I am not sure how you pick raspberries with an automatic machine—maybe somebody can—but we need these people. Unless we are going to instruct unemployed people here to do particular jobs, we are lost. I lived in Romania in the communist era in the 1970s, and watched the way local people were forced to do jobs. If they wanted to live somewhere—to have a flat—they had to work. It was not pleasant, because the people who did not work did not have anywhere to live and sat begging in the streets. I suspect that the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, is calling some of us on this side Marxists or communists. I am not one of those, but we should be free to choose what job we have. But we have to encourage people to come here, work, and work hard.

My second example is the single market and the customs union, about which many noble Lords have spoken. Queues will form at frontiers, not just at Dover but in other places and on the island of Ireland. We have all been working on it and have seen what has happened. There will be queues because there are controls, and you cannot do anything about the controls—it is not only about customs and so on, but also about controls such as the phytosanitary ones. Then there is the consequence of big and small companies leaving the UK because they cannot get their goods in and out. We all read about the motor manufacturers, but SMEs are equally important. I have a friend in Cornwall who runs a company with eight employees who has already moved to the Netherlands because he cannot cope with the problems that are likely to happen after Brexit.

Very briefly, and as mentioned by my noble friend Lord Liddle, the third example is competition and state aid, which are very important. I know that maybe the leader of the Labour Party thinks we want to abolish state aid rules so that he can give lots of government grants to his friends, but the Tory party has got there first, giving a £13 million contract to a new ferry service to go from Ramsgate to Ostend without seeking competitive tenders or saying what it is for. We all need the state aid legislation and I hope it will continue.

Where does this lead us? Many noble Lords have spoken about this but Parliament has to honour the wishes of the people in the referendum two and a half years ago. Would Parliament do that five or 10 years ahead? I do not know but surely in a parliamentary democracy it is for the Members of Parliament to make the final decision. It seems that the only solution, if we are to increase our prosperity and retain jobs and business, is for the Members of Parliament to make a decision themselves. Why should they not do that on a free vote? I am sure that those who have been in the House of Commons will tell me that is completely impossible but why should they not? They are quite sensible people—most of them, anyway—and probably much better at making a decision than the general population.

I hope that we will see sense. I will fully support my noble friend’s amendment tonight but let us remember that while we have been in Europe for 40 years for many reasons, the most important thing is to have preserved and retained peace. We must continue to do so.

Scotland: Transport Policing

Lord Berkeley Excerpts

Tuesday 18th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right. The expertise within British Transport Police is specific to transport issues and related concerns. It cannot easily be accommodated into general policing.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Minister and other speakers on the progress that has been made, but will the noble Lord tell the House whether the pensions rights and obligations of the existing BTP staff will be protected in whatever shape or form the end result occurs?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

That is a vital question and the answer is yes, they will be fully protected.

Civil Liability Bill [HL]

Lord Berkeley Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 12th June 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Berkeley]

2A: Clause 1, page 1, line 17, leave out second “the person” and insert “that person”

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

Amendment 2A is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Young of Norwood Green who, sadly, cannot be here today. It is the result of a lot of discussion in Committee about how to avoid what is otherwise a very useful Bill having an adverse effect on vulnerable road users, who could be defined as cyclists, pedestrians, motor cyclists—those who can sometimes suffer most from injuries such as this. I am also grateful to the Minister for agreeing to see us a few weeks ago, when we had a useful discussion.

We were able to table this amendment only yesterday because we struggled to come up with wording that does not affect the main Bill but that protects vulnerable road users and allows them to continue, if they need to, to get legal aid under the present arrangements, rather than increasing the minimum figure to £5,000. We concluded that, as the Minister and many other noble Lords have said, this Bill is about whiplash and nothing else. As I understand it—I hope the Minister will confirm this when she responds—it is only about whiplash and nothing to do with any other kind of legal aid claim that might be needed for other issues, road traffic or otherwise.

I had a long discussion with the clerks on this issue, as well, and it seemed to me that what was needed was something that would exclude vulnerable road users from the particular issue we are talking about—raising the legal aid limit—if they suffer whiplash. One might ask how a pedestrian or a cyclist is going to suffer whiplash if they are not in a car, but they probably could, for whatever reason, if they are hit by a car.

We then looked at Clause 1(3) and I, as a non-lawyer, started to get a bit confused as to who the phrase “the person” referred to. Is it the person who suffered injury, or the person who might be alleged to have caused the injury? It seemed to me that there is a reasonably elegant solution—which I am sure my legal friends will say does not work—that clarifies what is meant by “the person” in subsection (3). If the amendment were accepted, it would be clear that:

“For the purposes of this Part a person suffers a whiplash injury because of driver negligence if … when the person suffers the injury”,


that person,

“is using a motor vehicle other than a motor cycle on a road or other public place”.

I think that this is quite an elegant solution, providing an exception to this Bill for vulnerable road users who are not in cars, and who therefore would not be included.

I hope that that short explanation is helpful. I look forward to other comments and in the meantime, I beg to move.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, I have listened carefully to the noble Lord and appreciate the change he would like to make. In our view, however, the existing clause already makes it sufficiently clear that the person who suffers a whiplash injury because of driver negligence is the person who is either using the motor vehicle or who is a passenger in the motor vehicle at the time of the accident. The amendment therefore seems to add no practical difference to the construction of the clause.

In relation to vulnerable road users, I reassure the House that the clauses of the Bill relating to whiplash do not extend to cyclists, passers-by or pedestrians outside the vehicle or vehicles involved in the accident. However, I am aware that such road users remain captured by the Government’s non-Bill measure to increase the small-claims limit for road-traffic-accident-related claims to £5,000. We will deal with this issue in more detail a little later today, but I can say that we are sympathetic to the arguments made in relation to vulnerable road users and will continue to consider the matter. For the reasons that I have set out, I urge the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that explanation. One of the reasons for tabling the amendment was to probe her response. I will read it very carefully but in the meantime I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 2A withdrawn.

Civil Liability Bill [HL]

Lord Berkeley Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 10th May 2018 Lords Chamber

I am not sure what “limits” refers to there, because the subsection appears to create tariffs rather than limits. I am not sure what it is intended the court should do when confronted by a claimant who has suffered a whiplash injury which attracts the tariff award but who also places before the court a number of other minor injuries that fall outside the definition. There are serious problems here and I have sympathy with the drafters.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I return to the issue of employee exemption, which several noble Lords have mentioned in this debate. I have a lot of sympathy with it. In my Amendment 23, I shall be seeking some kind of exemption for vulnerable road users. My worry in these amendments is the definition of who is driving in the course of their employment. My understanding is that under the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act, you are covered if you are driving to work in your car and you are employed. The car does not have to be owned by your employer; it can be hired or your own. You are at work and, therefore, covered by the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act. I assume it is the same for Uber drivers, truck drivers and anyone in between.

It is difficult to accept an exemption that would cover all those things, whether you are self-employed or employed by a company or by somebody else. It would be fine if one could find a definition, but there are so many loopholes nowadays in driving and road safety law. I have had many discussions with Ministers over the years about whether road safety and driving legislation should be led by the rules of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act. In other words, you are at work all the time. That applies to drivers’ hours, driving safety and everything else. I worry about the definition of driving when in the course of employment, and I have a lot of sympathy with anyone trying to find a definition.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

My Lords, I intervene briefly, having put my name to the noble Earl’s amendments. I am not sure that the noble Lord, Lord Trevethin and Oaksey, quite followed the idea behind this, which is that psychological injuries are specifically identified at various places in this clause but minor injuries are not. The purpose of the amendments is therefore to remove psychological injuries as a specific category and reinsert them further down, through Amendment 22, with minor injuries, so that we sweep up everything concerned with a whiplash unless it is a serious injury, such as a fracture of a leg, which is clearly a different issue. However, the issue is picked up by the reinsertion by Amendment 22 of the words “minor injuries”, such as a bruised knee.

Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2016 (Consequential Provisions) Order 2017

Lord Berkeley Excerpts

Wednesday 10th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Adams of Craigielea]

My Lords, I shall not go over all the things that we have already gone through. I have grave concerns about this issue—I had concerns about a single police force in Scotland—but I do not think that this is how the Government in Scotland look at it. We have seen this approach from this Government from the beginning. They suck powers up from local government and they suck powers down from the UK. This is all about getting independence by the back door. The noble Lord is absolutely right when he says that it is the thin edge of the wedge. Every time we pass legislation in this House with consequences for Edinburgh, they will jump on it and suck it up. It really is incumbent on the Minister to see that they do not cut the borders between England and Scotland and between Scotland and Northern Ireland, creating a Scotland-only enclave and taking all the powers to themselves.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall be brief. In preparation for the debate two years ago, I checked with officials and Ministers in the Department for Transport here, first, whether they approved of this proposal and, secondly, whether they had been consulted. The answer was no in both cases. They did not know that it was happening. They shrugged their shoulders and said, “Well, the Government have decided to do it”, and the Labour Party at that time went along with it. That is why we had a debate two years ago and it is why we divided the House at half past eleven at night. We nearly won but not quite. However, we were right, and nearly everybody who has spoken tonight has confirmed that.

I want to make two points. As one noble Lord said, the BTP is funded in England and Wales by the operators and Network Rail. As we all know, Network Rail is now owned by the Government. So who is funding the BTP in Scotland, and what about Virgin Trains, which goes up the east and west coasts? Does it fund the police until it gets to Gretna or Berwick, and who is funding it beyond there? This affects the franchises. There is a problem with the franchise on the east coast main line at the moment.

Finally, I turn to Article 6 of the draft order. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, said, it allows the British Transport Police to cross territories. The British Transport Police from England may be able to go north into Scotland, but the order does not say anything about the Scottish police being able to chase people south of the border. Does that mean that they will have to get off at a station at around that point? I do not think that there is a station at Gretna any longer, but does it mean that they will have to get off at a station somewhere around there? If the British Transport Police is mentioned in this order as being allowed to go north to arrest people or whatever, I need an answer from the Minister on what will happen with regard to police going in the other direction. How will the Scottish transport police, or whatever they are to be called, be able to operate south of the border without them being mentioned in a new Article 6(d) in the order as being allowed to work extraterritorially? This situation seems extraordinary, and I look forward to the Minister’s answer.

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

My Lords, this debate has inevitably centred on Scotland and the British Transport Police, but civilian police forces such as the British Transport Police—I emphasise “civilian” police forces—were created for a particular reason. There are at least two other such police forces. The Ministry of Defence Police—not the “Redcaps”—and the Civil Nuclear Constabulary were similarly created for a particular reason.

Having lived for most of my life in the borderlands in the north of England on the opposite side to Scotland, I am very aware of those three civilian police forces, and I am interested in the Government’s reaction. If they concede on the British Transport Police but do not follow the sensible suggestions of my noble friend Lord Foulkes, what will happen to the Civil Nuclear Constabulary? I declare an interest as a former director of Sellafield. I shall be a bit circumspect in what I say about the Civil Nuclear Constabulary, but we should bear in mind even now the transport of material from Dounreay and other sites in Scotland to Sellafield. All those trains are accompanied by armed members of the Civil Nuclear Constabulary, just as every defence establishment in Scotland is policed by the Ministry of Defence Police, a GB body. So, when we talk about this order, I am interested in what happens to the other comparable civilian police forces.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

Again, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has anticipated what I will say shortly. Perhaps noble Lords will allow me to make some progress on the broader position.

I emphasise again that whatever reservations noble Lords may have about this approach, we must recognise and respect the agenda of the Scottish Parliament. That is part of the ongoing Smith agreement. However, let me turn to the matter that has most exercised the noble Lords here today—

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords—

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

Perhaps the noble Lord will allow me to make some progress. I may have time to give way to him later.

[Lord Berkeley]

I want to ask the Minister about what he has just said before he moves on to the next point. He mentioned that under Article 6(b) the British Transport Police will be able to go north of the border. But will he respond to my question? Will Scottish police be allowed to go south of the border or will they be seen as foreigners and so not allowed in?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord has again pre-empted what I am about to say. To be very clear, the purpose of the order is to ensure that criminals can be pursued in either direction. It seeks to equalise the ability of the transport police to function in both jurisdictions, and it delivers that.

I come back to the remarks made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness. The functions of the British Transport Police in Scotland will be a devolved matter. However, in the previous debate, the noble and learned Lord went on to say that that is slightly different from saying that British Transport Police itself will be devolved. It is, therefore, a matter of some interpretation. We have heard a number of points thus far from noble Lords on why that interpretation does not meet the test of good policing within the wider infrastructure of the United Kingdom.

Recent press reports of morale in the Scottish division of the British Transport Police show that up to two-thirds of officers are unsure whether they will transfer to Police Scotland following the merger, and only one-third of officers have declared that they definitely intend to do so. That should give pause for thought and concern. It is also worth stressing that, importantly, British Transport Police has, throughout its history, been a success. Since 2005, it has reduced crime on Scotland’s rail network by 56%, an achievement that compares favourably with an overall reduction of crime in Scotland of 38%. That is no mean feat and certainly worthy of praise. We should recognise that here.

The ultimate test of the merger under discussion is whether it makes the policing of Scotland’s railways better. As a former Member of the European Parliament, I recall how important it was that, before substantive changes were made to legislation, serious impact assessments were undertaken to ensure that the outcome would be delivered by the means chosen. That important element is missing from some of the discussions being put forward. I say that as a member of the travelling public and in recognition of the concerns that have been expressed by a number of the agencies and bodies cited this evening.

Before I conclude, I will touch on some of the substantive points made. I begin with the confusion that may have arisen around what will happen next. We need to put at the fore of our minds that this involves police officers who have delivered for the betterment of our country. The merger is not due to any failing of theirs and at no point should it be recognised as such. Nor is it a failing of British Transport Police in any element of its operation.

Some of the issues raised tonight need to be dealt with in great detail, but I will touch on what the noble Lord, Lord Clark of Windermere, said. He talked about the inclusion of the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the Ministry of Defence Police. It is important to stress that the Smith commission did not at any point intend to devolve these aspects. Therefore, although they are touched on in the order, at no point will these functions be onward devolved to the Police Scotland operation. That is particularly important.

To make this move work, a joint programme board has been created. That board is particularly focused upon where the points of friction rest and how they can be addressed going forward. I will come back to its role in delivering the outcomes that noble Lords here today would like to see.

The noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, touched upon one of the most fundamental questions—terrorism—and how we can assure there is no diminution in our preparedness, our scope, our ability to operate and our attention to the issues before us. There are pre-existing protocols between Police Scotland and the various agencies and constabularies south of the border. These will continue to deliver against that outcome. It is important, however, that they are tested to make sure that they are fit for purpose in that regard.

This is not only about Scotland—it is important to stress that. The British Transport Police covers the whole of our country, not only one part of it. Further, we have to recognise that the threats to our country are not specific to one nation or region but, rather, in many instances are a threat to us all. We must recognise, therefore, that there will be responsible agencies which will take these matters forward.

Let me touch on where we can make serious progress. To address the challenges of the onward devolution of the policing of the railways in Scotland, the two Governments have established a joint programme board. The board is currently working to achieve an orderly transfer and to provide affected officers and staff with clarity at the earliest opportunity. The board has sought to address the findings of the recent report on devolution conducted by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary in Scotland, which has been cited by a number of noble Lords today. Its principal purpose is to ensure that each of those issues is addressed head on.

Therefore, minded as I am of the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and other noble Lords, following this debate I will secure a meeting with the UK Government co-chair of the joint programme board. At that meeting I will take the salient points from this debate and put them before it. I will ask the board to produce a report, which I anticipate will form the basis of a formal discussion between the Government of the United Kingdom and the Government of Scotland. Thereafter I will write to the noble Lord with the result of that discussion and place a copy of that in the House. The next meeting takes place on 30 January 2018.

I stress again that there are two further Scotland Act orders pertaining to the British Transport Police. I will report back before these orders are laid.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Berkeley Excerpts

Wednesday 28th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, said that we must be alongside but not inside the EU, but the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, whom I welcome to her new position, stated absolutely clearly that there will be no single market for the UK and no customs union. I should like to explore a few of the consequences of that from the transport point of view.

Let us look at the frontiers—at Dover and the Channel Tunnel, as well as Holyhead and so on. About 15,000 trucks a day go through Dover and the Channel Tunnel together, and about 400,000 a year on the Holyhead route. In the future, with this new arrangement, we will have to look at tariffs on goods, the customs arrangements, immigration and, of course, the security that happens at the moment. Some things may be able to be done electronically, but at the moment that does not work very well for immigration. HM Revenue and Customs has stated that it is not confident it can deliver any new electronic system on time. As my noble friend Lord Adonis said, the traffic jams on the M20 and the M2 will go somewhere north of London. Where is all this going to go?

A couple of weeks ago, I was in Switzerland talking to people about logistics. Everybody knows that the Swiss model is half in, half out, and that they have transit arrangements for rail and road freight through Switzerland, but if you want to import goods into Switzerland you have to go through the customs and tariff procedure, which involves very long queues at the frontiers. That is what we will have. No matter how we solve this, the fact remains that the costs of transport are going to go up pretty dramatically. The other question is: where are we going to get the truck drivers from? Around 80% of the drivers that come across the channel are non-UK, EU citizens.

There is a similar question on the railways. Will manufacturing companies in this country be able to sell their equipment on the continent, and vice versa? Will they operate to the same standards, as they do at the moment after us struggling for about 20 years? It is going to be quite a challenge.

Having listened to much of the debate, I have heard a lot of messages about Brexit, job losses, lack of credibility and the economies of many sectors—we have heard about them all. Can the Minister say which sectors, if any, support a Brexit in which we do not have a single market, to which about 45% of our exports currently go, or the ability to recruit, welcome and keep the many people we need, as we have heard tonight, to keep these industries going? Which sectors will grow after Mrs May’s hard Brexit and her obsession with immigration?

I conclude by supporting what my noble friend Lord Soley said about the need for peace and the politics of Europe. I lived in Romania for several years in the 1970s when there was a communist regime. I saw the real pain of people who did not have liberty. The one thing we have brought and that we have encouraged is the free movement of people within the EU to travel, to work, to have relationships or whatever. It has contributed to the peace and understanding that we have, and I hope we can continue it. Surely we ought to be doing this and not separating ourselves out by even more barriers. I support a cross-party agreement to ensure that we retain some or all of these benefits, and I certainly support the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Adonis.

Smith Commission Principles: Railway Policing

Lord Berkeley Excerpts

Monday 18th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister respond to the question from my noble friend Lord Faulkner about the BTP’s evidence to the Public Audit Committee that if this split happens, regardless of the safety and other implications which we have all spoken about previously, there will be extra costs for the British and Welsh Governments for the British Transport Police activities in those countries? If the Scottish Government implement this, will they compensate England and Wales for the extra costs that will be imposed?

[Lord Dunlop]

I do not think we can be specific on the costs until we know what the structure will be. However, as I said, in the detailed discussions on the implementation plans the UK Government will work very closely with the Scottish Government to ensure that, whatever arrangements are put in place, they do not cause detriment to the other parts of the UK.

Scotland’s Fiscal Framework

Lord Berkeley Excerpts

Wednesday 24th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dunlop]

I thank my noble friend but I cannot commit to what he asks. We have already moved a Motion to consider on Report the Bill in the same order in which we considered it in Committee, which was precisely to allow time for this agreement to be reached and published, and to allow your Lordships’ House to scrutinise it.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, in answer to a previous question the Minister rather proudly announced that 50% of the revenue under the new arrangement would come from the Scottish taxpayer. Does that mean that the rest of the revenue will come as a subsidy from the UK Government?

[Lord Dunlop]

No. It has always been the case—right from the start of these discussions—that a block grant would continue. However, we are providing for more of the budget to be financed from the tax revenues raised in Scotland.