Immigration Bill

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Monday 10th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Sandwich (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister will not be surprised that I wanted to have a last word about colleges. We have many illustrious representatives of the universities but every time that we have this debate I think, “Why has no one mentioned the colleges?”. The proportion of foreign students in our colleges and other institutions is quite a bit higher. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, refers in the amendment to “all institutions”, so they are covered, but the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, made an important point about the sustaining of courses: if you do not have enough students, you do not have enough courses. This is happening right now. I know personally of a college in London—I am not a representative of it—that is losing staff and courses as fast as it is losing its students. I think that last year they had an 80% loss, which they are now trying to make back up again. I remind the Minister of my interest there.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con)]

My Lords, in opposing the amendment, I certainly do not do so in any spirit of being against the importance that higher education students have to this country; clearly, they are important. We have had some very passionate speeches, with which I find myself much in agreement, about the danger of speculation, rumour and perception. However, it is important that we keep the changes that are put forward in perspective, and that we look at some of the facts as well. I put down some Written Questions and had back some answers based on figures from the Office for National Statistics about student numbers from some of our important markets. The latest figures available show significant rises from China, Hong Kong and Malaysia. Admittedly there are falls from India, but that is against a background of a fall in the value of the rupee, and other countries, such as Australia, have also noticed a fall in Indian student numbers. One or two noble Lords suggested that already a drop in student numbers was feeding through. That is certainly not true of many of our important markets.

Yes, perception is important, as are overseas students, but I would like to say something specific about the health charge, because I do not think that the amount has been addressed directly. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, suggested that we were suggesting that students were making calls on the health service disproportionately. I do not think that that is being suggested. I accept that that is not remotely the case.

[Lord Patel]

Just to clarify, my Lords, I was suggesting that students do not make disproportionate claims on the NHS.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

That is certainly true but of course the charge is lower than the charge for other people, so that is going to be recognised in the proposal. The amount of the charge, at £150 per year, is significantly less than the average student would cost the health service, and I accept that that is as it should be. I think that the charge is actually lower than for other people. We need to get in perspective just how much the charge is: it is £150. I am not minimising that but, if you look at it spread over a year, and many of the students at a higher level will be here for a full year, you see that it is the cost of a Sunday newspaper each week throughout the year. It is important to keep that in perspective.

I look at the charge in terms of whether it is fair. I know what the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, suggested, but we have to look at it in the round against the other changes. Compared with the other proposals, is it not fair that students should pay a charge, a levy, as well? I think that it is, against the background of the Bill and indeed of the other people in this country who have contributed.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I was a bit puzzled by his saying that the charge is spread over a year. The whole point about this charge is that it is not spread over a year but is paid up front. Moreover, if you ask for a visa for the whole of your study period, the charge is tripled and up front.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I was specifically addressing the health charge. When I say that it is spread over the year, I mean that the benefits are spread over a whole year, and many students are here for a whole year. I appreciate that it is paid as a lump sum. On the issue of fairness, I think that it is fair, looked at across the broad sweep of the changes that are being proposed.

The other issue is whether the charge is competitive. Some noble Lords have cited the position in the United States. As I understand it, they require insurance, and the cost of that is at a much higher level. The USA is the chief market for students; more students go there, as has rightly been said, than elsewhere. I am not suggesting that we slavishly follow the USA, but, if we are going to make the point about competition, we have to look at other states and how they handle this issue. Many of them have a charge or require insurance. We have to look at it globally in that way.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I suspect that we are rapidly moving into territory where everything has been said but not everyone has said it. Given that, I wanted to respond not only to the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, but also to my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace of Tankerness, who responded a week ago to Amendment 26 from the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and my noble friend Lady Hamwee’s Amendment 80 to reassure us about the impact of the Bill. The fact is, though, that the Bill exacerbates the impact of previous policies towards overseas students. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and many other noble Lords have talked about the contribution to the UK economy and to soft power, while my noble friend Lord Phillips has talked about personal ties.

However, the hard figures already show a drop in overseas student numbers. My noble and learned friend Lord Wallace of Tankerness, and indeed the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, today, have taken comfort from the increase in Chinese students in particular in recent years, compared to Australia and France. If the riposte of the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, and my noble friend Lady Williams was not enough, the recent British Council document Education in East Asia—by the Numbers (Making Sense of the Slowdown in Outbound Student Mobility from China) shows a global slowdown in outbound Chinese student numbers. This demonstrates that we cannot stand still and that we need to increase our share of Chinese students if the numbers are not to fall. That is the very latest document from the British Council.

We cannot take the risk of alienating aspiring students from China and other emerging markets. My noble and learned friend Lord Wallace said:

“We are still an attractive proposition for people wishing to come and study”—[Official Report, 3/3/14; col. 1192]—

but he himself admitted to us that a good story is not being told and it cannot be told with the Bill as it is. No one quarrels with measures designed to prevent abuse of the immigration system, but if we do not redress the impression—indeed, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, said, the perception—that students are not welcome, we will see more severe reductions in student numbers. What better way to counter that impression than to totally exempt overseas students from the Bill?

Immigration Bill

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts

Monday 10th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con)]

My Lords, it is a great privilege to take part in this debate. The Bill has many valuable features but there are also, as has been exemplified in this debate, some very valid and genuine concerns. As has been said, the debate was ably and fairly set out by my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach.

It is important to put the Bill in its context. This country has become more vibrant, more diverse, stronger and better because of immigration. That was exemplified recently by the 2012 Olympics. Looking at the Olympic ambassadors, our troops, our spectators and certainly our competitors, you could see that they were from many different races, religions, traditions and backgrounds.

I agree with the points made by many noble Lords about the importance of asylum. Over the years under different Governments we have been a haven for refugees and asylum seekers, from Uganda and recently from Syria, and we have also looked at special cases—for example, the Gurkhas. It is also important to say that this Bill is not the full picture. Quite rightly, it looks at how we control immigration but there are other important aspects. Just last Friday we dealt with a Bill—admittedly it is a Private Member’s Bill but it has had unanimous support from all quarters in the Commons and the Lords—making it easier for some troops to qualify successfully as immigrants in this country. That is the other important facet or the other side of the coin. I also look forward to the modern slavery Bill, when we will see provisions for tackling some of the abuses in relation to people who seek to settle in this country. That is another important part of the picture.

I look at this Bill in two senses: we have to ask whether it is potentially fair and potentially effective. Some parts of the Bill fulfil both criteria. On removal or deportation, if we can aim for a quicker, more streamlined but fair system—noble Lords have made the point about the need for speed—that will be good. Similarly, it will be good if we have a streamlined, fair and effective system for appeals. Also, provided that there is provision for the destruction of some of the materials in appropriate circumstances, the provisions on biometric information will bring our system into the 21st century. Other countries have biometric testing and I see no objection per se in that provided that it is properly controlled and fair. Tougher provisions on sham marriages and civil partnerships would, again, be welcomed. If they are sham and inappropriate marriages or civil partnerships, we need to act. I also welcome tougher powers against illegal or unfit immigration advisory bodies and organisations. These provisions are to be greeted with acclaim.

I have some concerns about the health service charge in relation to students—a point that has cropped up repeatedly. However, again, I think that a health service charge properly administered and at an appropriate low level is fair and reasonable. It is practised by other European countries. Of course, it is paid up-front; it is not paid when somebody goes to the doctor—it is certainly not paid to the doctor because they are exempt. I do not think that it is paid at the hospital door; I think that it is a provision that is made when somebody makes an application. Therefore, once paid, it should not act as a deterrent from going to a hospital. Certainly, we will need to look at that to make sure that it is fair. I have concerns in relation to international students, both in that area and more widely.

Something that has not been discussed at great length but, again, is important so that we can assess the effect of immigration and whether people are returning home is proper exit controls. That provision was widely welcomed in the Commons across all parties. It is something that we need to do, it is relatively easily done and it should not hold things up. Most people leave by plane, so we will get a full and proper picture if that check can be done at exit—something that has not been effectively done until now.

That brings me to two areas of the Bill which cause me concern and which I think will need proper scrutiny as it goes through Committee. The first relates to the services section of the legislation, if I can call it that, in relation to driving licences, bank accounts and particularly accommodation. There are some problems here regarding fairness and effectiveness. It may be unfair both on the person doing the checking and on the person being checked, and it may also be unfair to people who are not being checked and who are going to be hit as collateral damage. The DVLA and the banks have the capacity—they are large enough—to be able to create a small bureaucracy to deal with this, although I ask my noble friend to say in response, if he can, what documents are going to be looked at. I have concerns about this. If we do not have ID cards in this country—and this is not a plea to have them; there are great concerns about them—how can people demonstrate that they are nationals of the UK or that they have a right to be here? As has been said, many people do not have a passport so, short of that, what documents are going to be needed? I can see the argument that we do not want to encourage people who are here illegally to be able to set up a bank account or obtain a driving licence.

I have greater concerns in relation to landlords and landladies. Some of these will be people who have got a small house where they are letting out rooms. It is extremely unfair to put them in a position where they have to police the immigration service and check what these documents are. Will the Minister say how this is going to be dealt with? Short of ID cards—which I do not want—I cannot see how you can have an effective system in those circumstances.

The danger is—and this point has been made by other noble Lords—that there could be indirect and unintentional discrimination. The tenancy example is perhaps the most serious one. People will go for tenants who they think have a right to be here. Alternatively, some of the most vulnerable in our society who do not have passports but who are nationals will suffer collaterally as well. This area causes me concern. There is potential for indirect discrimination and I should like to probe further as to how this is going to work.

However, my greatest concern is something that has been touched on by other Members of your Lordships’ House. It relates to the deprivation of nationality, particularly where the person has no other nationality. If they have dual nationality then clearly it is not so serious, but if the deprivation of nationality leaves them stateless, then I have serious concerns both about fairness and efficacy. It seems neither fair not effective. If they are in this country there is nowhere we can legally deport them to if they are stateless. Britain has a proud history of fairness and I believe my country to be better than this proposal.

There is much to welcome in this Bill, but there is much to scrutinise as well. I look forward to doing so as the legislation proceeds. I trust we shall be able to improve this Bill.