Mid Staffordshire Foundation Trust Inquiry

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Wednesday 6th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)]

My Lords—

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, will the Minister make it clear that brief interventions are required? Otherwise not everyone will be heard.

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord has taken the words out of my mouth.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

As my noble friend said, Robert Francis certainly recommended a statutory duty of candour, and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State will give full consideration to that. So far, he has said that he will work through all 290 recommendations in the report, and that the Government aim to give an initial response within a month. Precisely what the timeframe will be on all these elements, I cannot say. As my noble friend will know, in the interim we created legally binding rules that require the NHS Commissioning Board to insert a contractual duty of candour into the NHS standard contract in 2013-14. That means that NHS hospitals will be required contractually to tell patients when they have been significantly harmed by a patient-safety incident during their care. Otherwise, I take my noble friend’s point on board.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, the Statement says:

“every carer, every member of staff will be given the opportunity to say whether they would recommend their hospital to their friends or family. This will be published … where a significant proportion of patients or staff raise serious concerns about what is happening in a hospital immediate inspection will result and suspension of the hospital board may well follow”.

That is a very radical proposal. My question is very simple: will a member of staff making such a report have their name published, or will their contribution be anonymous? If it is not anonymous, this system will not work.

Business of the House

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Thursday 31st January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, would we not have a more informed debate if a Government Minister was able to answer a question that I and, I am sure, others have repeatedly put in Written Questions and elsewhere: what precisely in terms of numbers is the coalition commitment to establishing the party strengths in this House on the basis of the last general result? What does that mean in terms of numbers for each of the three parties? Although the Leader of the House dealt with the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, very effectively in parliamentary terms, he did not actually answer the question, which was a valid one. If the Government are committed to their repeatedly stated objective of reflecting the last election results, surely we are entitled to know precisely in numbers, including the total number, what that would occasion. If we do not know the numbers, it is very difficult to have an informed debate.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, perhaps I could just add that I have tabled a whole series of Questions to the Chairman of Committees on this matter of availability of resources to the House against the number of Peers to be created. Perhaps the Government might take note of the answers that I am receiving, because clearly the figures do not add up.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I can see that the noble Lord is looking forward to this debate next week. If I may follow up on the question asked by my noble friend Lord Grocott, at the moment the number of Conservative Peers is anything up to about 39% or 40% of the Peers in this House who carry a political label. Therefore the Conservative Party already has a higher proportion of Peers than of the votes cast at the last election. The noble Lord needs to clarify exactly what the Government are committing themselves to.

House of Lords: Working Practices

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Thursday 1st November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, I begin by thanking Nicola Newson in the Library for her excellent paper and the Labour group of Peers for giving up without dissent its political debating slot in favour of a debate on House business. In taking that decision, the group reflected opinion across the House on the need for a carefully introduced programme of modernisation. I also take heart from the minutes of the Procedure Committee of 2 July, where in reply to a question from me, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, said that, given the House’s current uncertainty around Lords reform, he would not seek to take forward any recommendations until there was greater clarity about the future of the House. We now have that greater clarity.

I concentrate my remarks on recommendation 3, which deals with Leader of the House Questions and those paragraphs which relate to what is described as the Back-Bench business committee. Recommendation 3 expresses a real problem: we have no mechanism for raising concerns over House business during sittings of the House. During exchanges between the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, and the Leader of the House on 19 July on the use of Written Ministerial Statements, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, said that the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, knows that the House,

“does not have points of order and that if he needs to raise a question, it has to be on a relevant Motion. It is a gross discourtesy to the Lord Speaker for the noble Lord not to have put down a PNQ … It is also a discourtesy to the House for him to break the rules in this way”.—[Official Report, 19/7/12; col. 344.]

Well, we do not want points of order; we do not want another Commons chamber; we do not have sitting time to allow for debates on procedural wrangles. We need a procedure that allows the House to vent its concerns on House matters. That is the background to recommendation 3.

I turn now to the Goodlad proposals for a Back-Bench business committee, which should be more appropriately described as the Back-Bench debates committee. The problem with these recommendations, of which there are seven, are the words “Back-Bench business committee”, which suggests a Commons-type model for control over Back-Bench business. Not so; the Goodlad proposals would be confined to selecting subjects that are important, timely and of interest to Members and the public. Members would have to make their case for a debate to an open committee comprising 12 members but the committee would not follow closely the Commons model.

For example, where in the Commons there was originally a requirement that the committee’s members be elected without reference to party group proportions, the Goodlad proposals do not even require elections at all. Whereas in the Commons it was proposed that any enhanced committee would ultimately secure greater control over government business, Goodlad refused to go down that route. Whereas the business determined by the Commons committee has precedence over government business, apart from in exceptional circumstances, Goodlad again refused that approach. Finally, the hours of the House given over to Back-Bench business in the Lords are far fewer than in the Commons. It therefore follows that the proposed committee’s influence would be commensurately less.

I have concentrated my remarks on a very narrow but important part of the Goodlad agenda. My concern is to secure for Members greater influence over what we discuss. While recognising the need for the Government to secure their business, we would be a more democratic House if we were to make these small changes proposed in the Goodlad report. I appeal to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, to move by stealth through a piloted process of reform.

House of Lords: Reform

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 8th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman]

My Lords—

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords—

[Lord Giddens]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the by-elections were never supposed to occur because the Labour Party in 2001 promised that it would come forward with proper, elected reform that did not in the event take place. The existence of the by-elections may still be a spur for further reform.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

With two-thirds of the House of Commons voting in favour of an elected House, why will the Government not table a Motion for a referendum to be held at the time of the next general election, in the knowledge that when that comes to a vote in the House of Commons the Labour Benches would be required to support it because it is in our election manifesto; and Liberal Democrat MPs, along with Conservative supporters of an elected House, would also feel obliged to? The country would then decide and would lock in Parliament to a yes or no decision.

[Lord Strathclyde]

The Deputy Prime Minister looked at many options, including having discussions with the leader of the Labour Party. However, it was decided that moving forward would not be fruitful.

Arrangement of Business

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Thursday 26th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, I promised I would come back to the House after a short debate after Questions to explain how we would deal with the debate on the Motion tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Richard, on Monday. Those of us who were here will have realised that the House wished to sit not just on Monday but on Tuesday so as to complete the debate without going into the small hours of Tuesday morning. I am delighted to inform the House that we will sit as normal on Monday at 2.30 pm. After Questions the debate will begin and after a named speaker the debate and the House will adjourn, which I hope will mean that we do not need to sit into the small hours of Tuesday morning. The House will meet at 10 am on Tuesday morning and we shall complete the business in time for Prorogation to take place at 1.30 pm. I know the House is extremely thinly attended at the moment, but I hope that it will feel that this is an entirely sensible way to go and that it will be pleased that we have given plenty of time for this debate to be completed.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Does that mean that there will be advice on the amount of time Members can take during the debate?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I am happy to give advice or for the Chief Whips to give advice on a rough timetable so that we can complete it by, say, 11 pm or midnight on Monday. Of course, any guidelines will be advisory and not mandatory, and that is how it should be. I think there was an impression this morning that I was somehow trying to stop debate on this subject. I am really not; I am very happy for there to be full debate on it.

Trusts (Capital and Income) Bill [HL]

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Wednesday 28th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader of the House misunderstood what was said on the BBC this morning. It was said that the Joint Committee of both Houses is recommending and that the Government accept the recommendation. Given the huge amount of work that the Joint Committee has done, surely it would be logical for the Leader of the House to agree that there should be time to consider the recommendations before the publication of a Bill, which may be amended because of the recommendations, is announced in the Queen’s Speech. That leads inexorably to a view that the report ought to be debated widely prior to Prorogation.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, if the report is to be published on 23 April and the Leader of the House tells us that we should have time to read and consider it, can we be assured that the House will meet during the week beginning 30 April for four days, or does the Leader of the House have something else in mind for that week?

Health and Social Care Bill

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, the Leader of the House has given us a proper and guarded answer to quite a difficult question. However, does he not agree that this encapsulates the kind of problem which needs to be resolved before we have a directly elected second Chamber? It goes to the heart of one of the issues that has been accepted as the norm by both Houses for many decades but which would undoubtedly be challenged time and again in the event of a directly elected House. I do not expect the noble Lord to give an immediate answer now—he will give a guarded response—but can I try to be helpful and suggest that this is the kind of issue which the committee of my noble friend Lord Richard should look at, and that that may involve an extension of the period of time the committee needs to consider it? But it is clearly issues like this—alongside, in relation to an Oral Question taken earlier, issues like the impact of a referendum in Scotland—which need to be considered by the Joint Committee before we proceed any further.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, before the House approves the Motion, perhaps I may ask the noble Earl, Lord Howe, a question about the risk register appeal, because we now have some dates that change the debate. I understand that the Report stage is to begin on 8 February and that it is expected to complete by somewhere around the middle of February.

[Noble Lords]

March.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The appeal on the risk register will be held in a tribunal on 5 and 6 March, and therefore there might be an opportunity for Members to raise the issue of the decisions of the tribunal, depending on the dates that the Government actually set for the Report stage. Would he care to comment on that? Further, if there is not too much flexibility, has the noble Earl considered what the Companion says on the admissibility of amendments tabled at Third Reading:

“The principal purposes of amendments on third reading are … to clarify any remaining uncertainties”?

The risk register may well raise issues that constitute “remaining uncertainties”. Can we have an assurance that if it is not possible to raise them on Report, there will be some flexibility at Third Reading under the heading in the Companion that I have just read out to ensure that we can have a debate on any issue arising out of the tribunal’s decisions? I am sorry to have to raise the matter in this way, but this is an opportunity to do so.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords, perhaps I may ask a question of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. I ask him as the Leader of the whole House—which I know he is very mindful and respectful of—and not just as the leader of a government coalition party. Whenever we deal with a social security Bill—apart from turning negative regulations into affirmative regulations—that almost inevitably involves expenditure, either increasing it or reducing it. That may also apply to health Bills and transport Bills. If, on any choosing of the Speaker and one of the noble Lord’s right honourable friends at the other end in a position of authority, the claim can be made that that is financial privilege—this is before the Speaker has even ruled on it, so clearly there is a government view so far as I can tell; I stand to be corrected—and if any Bill involving any element of expenditure, including on welfare, pensions, health and education, can at the fiat of the House of Commons be ruled as money and therefore privilege, then, taking the noble Lord’s statement that this House is a part-time House, it will become a very part-time House indeed because we might as well go home.

House of Lords: Reform

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

I agree with my noble friend on the question of taxation, and indeed with my honourable friend Mark Harper, the Minister in the House of Commons. However, I am not sure that that is a very useful comparison. After all, it would require a Peer living in London to turn up every single day, and one of the strengths of this House is that it is part-time and people choose to come when they feel that they have something of value to contribute.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, how do the Government’s proposals for reform fit in with rumours in the House of Commons that the Government are about to pack the House of Lords with an additional 50—perhaps even more than 50—coalition Peers? Where are they going to sit, where are they going to park and where are they going to have their offices?

European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Republic of Korea Free Trade Agreement) Order 2011

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Wednesday 11th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Trumpington]

My Lords, may I support the noble Lord, Lord Barnett? I have just put down a Question to that very effect, but unfortunately it must wait a month before it can be heard in this House. I strongly support the point that the current arrangements are a total failure and should revert. Any suicide bomber who wishes to attack this place certainly could do so without somebody looking at the bottom of their car. Please will the Leader do something about it today?

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, before we go down this route, could we just remember that we have a duty to secure the security of this institution? Difficult decisions have had to be taken and we should be very careful about rescinding them.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, I am well aware, as are most Members of the House, that this week there have been some difficulties in entering the car park. I know that Black Rod has received many representations—I expect that, even after today, he will continue to receive many further representations—and I urge noble Lords who believe that they can suggest improvements commensurate with providing the security of the House, as the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, has pointed out, to do so as early as possible.

I will have discussions with the Chairman of Committees and members of the relevant committees that made these decisions to see whether the review can be speeded up. I understand the difficulties that have taken place.

[Lord Laming]

My Lords, as a member of two committees that were involved in making this decision for this experimental time, I was not aware of any pressure coming from any outside source. The decision was taken sincerely and clearly within this House by the membership of this House. Should it be thought sensible, I am very happy to review the matter, but let us learn from the experience and see whether we can approach this in a spirit that is intended to make it as constructive and as safe as possible.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Perhaps I may slot into the minds of Members what could be a long-term solution. It is for us to reclaim our underground car park across the road, which we own, and build a tunnel which links the House to that car park.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I am sure this has already occurred to any would-be terrorist, but what do the security arrangements of the House do about the river and the boats that go up and down it? My friend hired one of those boats the other day and was free to take suitcases on and off as she wished. If we cannot do anything about that, why do we carry on making entrance to this place more complicated and inconvenient?

Procedure of the House (Proposal 1)

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Tuesday 8th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, I go back to the contributions of the noble Lords, Lord Wakeham, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, because they raised two very important issues. They pointed to the need for the Front Bench to retain the role that it currently has. I will argue quite simply that it is impossible for the Front Bench to carry out that role. That has always been my position. In the correspondence that I had with about 500 Members four years ago, when 300 or so Members replied and gave their views on the matter, an overwhelming majority of those who responded said that they were in favour of changing the role of the Lord Speaker. It was clear that there was considerable concern about the role of the Front Bench—Labour was in government at the time—in carrying out that responsibility.

The noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, both referred to the need to intervene earlier, but therein lies the problem, because the Front Bench cannot intervene earlier without appearing to be political.

[A noble Lord]

Rubbish!

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The noble Lord opposite says, “Rubbish!”, but some of us, including the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, watch what is happening on the government Front Bench during Question Time. The noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, very effectively seeks to have some influence on what is going on in the Chamber and often talks among her colleagues on the Front Bench as to who should be called. We are pointed to by Ministers on the government Front Bench, almost inviting us or identifying us to intervene during the course of the debate.

[Lord Grenfell]

This may be a hypothetical question, but it comes to my mind. When the noble Lord says that it should not be in the gift of the Leader of the House because of the political implications, would we now be granting those powers to the Woolsack if we still had a Lord Chancellor—because he was a political figure, too?

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

We do not have a Lord Chancellor; we now have an independent Lord Speaker. I am arguing that we should take that role away from the political and give it to the independent Chair of our proceedings, thereby enabling early intervention in a House which, during Question Time, is often unruly, and which has led to public criticism when people see adults on television standing screaming, shouting and bawling at each other across the Floor of the House. Anyone in this House who can claim that that is a dignified spectacle misunderstands what is expected of this House.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

My Lords, I am absolutely staggered that any Member of this House who has served in the other place—or the House of Commons, I am pretty agnostic on what we call it—should be advocating greater authority for our Speaker. I fear that I do not remember the halcyon days of the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd. I remember her authority being constantly challenged on totally bogus points of order. You have only to pick up a Hansard from yesterday, which will be like any other Hansard from the House of Commons. It will show that after every Question Time, people leap to their feet with points of order which are not points of order. They are people who missed out on Questions—they have not managed to get in, so they ask their question anyway—or they bring up some constituency matter that happens to concern them. That is all completely bogus. The authority of the Speaker is constantly challenged in the House of Commons, and it will be challenged here if we give authority to our Lord Speaker. We do not want to go down that path; it is a very retrograde step. We should learn from the House of Commons and stay with a system that works very satisfactorily as it is.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

I should thank my noble friend Lord Stoddart—if I may refer to him as that—and the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, for what they said about the minority parties and independents in your Lordships’ House. I would comment further, however, by saying to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, and others who feel that we behave extremely badly at Question Time, and that this does not do us any good with the public, that I think that the public see a substantial difference between Questions in your Lordships’ House and Questions, particularly Prime Minister’s Questions, in the House of Commons. The members of the public who I talk to always say how well behaved your Lordships’ House is in comparison to the other place.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Perhaps I may just refer to this myth about the distinction between the two Houses and ask the noble Lord whether he appreciates that in the Commons people do not stand and bawl at each other across the Floor of the House.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

No, they do not. I would suggest that Members go to the Public Gallery in the Commons and see what goes on there. This is one of the only Houses in the world where Members bawl at each other to be heard on the Floor of the House.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

I simply cannot agree with the noble Lord. As someone who tries to get in on Questions quite a lot—only because I am interested in a subject which is quite topical at the moment—I would have thought that when noble Lords get up who have not spoken and do not speak very much, the courtesy in your Lordships’ House is definitely there, to hear the new person, to give them a chance and so on. So I think that this aspect of our bad behaviour—and I speak also as someone who gives way a lot, and I am very happy to go on doing it—is exaggerated.

I am not sure that this Motion on the Order Paper really helps us. As I understand it, the Lord Speaker would simply choose a group, whether the Conservatives, the Cross Benches, Labour or the Bishops—though we normally give way to Bishops in any case. Time would be taken because it would go to the leader of the chosen group to decide who was going to speak. I am not sure that, as drafted, this takes us forward at all.

Finally, I would ask the Leader of the House, if he is going to speak, if he could clarify a doubt which the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, mentioned, and which is in the minds of many of us when we decide whether we are trying to get in at Question Time. Are the Government one group, and does each speaker from the Government count as a question asked by the Government, or are we in fact dealing with the Liberal Democrat party and the Conservative Party, and therefore do they each get a shot at Questions as the groups revolve around the Chamber?