Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill

Debate between Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Committee stage
Monday 22nd January 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to take part in this first day of Committee on the Bill. As it is my first time speaking in Committee, I declare my technology interests as set out in the register, not least as an adviser to Boston Limited. In moving Amendment 15, I will also speak to Amendment 24, and I am very interested in the other amendments in this group.

Much of the discussions so far rest on the most important point of all when it comes to legislating. It reminds me of many of the discussions that we had in this very Room last year on the Financial Services and Markets Bill, as it was then, about accountability, the role of the Secretary of State and the role of the regulators. Much of this Bill as drafted, if not a pendulum, simultaneously swings significant powers to the regulator, and indeed to the Secretary of State. But the question that needs continually to come up in our deliberations in Committee and beyond is where Parliament is in this process. We hear every day how the physical building itself is crumbling, in need of desperate repair and in need of a decant, but, when it comes to this Bill, Parliament has already disappeared.

There is a massive need for accountability in many of the Bill’s clauses. Clause 19 is just one example, which is why my Amendment 15 seeks to take out a chunk of it to help in this process. Later in Committee, we will hear other amendments on parliamentary accountability. It is not only essential but, as has already been mentioned, goes to the heart of a trend that is happening across legislation, in different spheres, where huge powers are being given to our economic regulators without the right level of accountability.

What we saw as one of the major outputs of FSMA 2023, as it now is, was a new parliamentary committee: the financial services and markets committee. In many ways, you can see this as a process that may happen repetitively, but positively so, across a number of areas if this approach to legislation is perpetuated across those areas when it comes to competition. I look forward to my noble friend the Minister’s response to my Amendment 15 on that issue.

I move on to Amendment 24, which concerns a very different but critical area. It seeks to amend Clause 20, which makes brief mention of the accessibility of the information pertaining to these digital activities but is silent on the accessibility of the digital activities themselves. Does my noble friend the Minister agree that we need more on the face of the Bill when it comes to accessibility? With more services—critical parts of our lives—moving on to these digital platforms, it is essential that they are accessible to all users.

I use the term “user” deliberately because, as we have heard in previous debates, there is a great need for clarity around this legislation. “User” is used—indeed, peppered—throughout the legislation. This is right in that “user” is a term of art that would be understood across the country; however, it does not appear in the title of the Bill, which is at least interesting. We must ensure that all users or consumers are able to access all these digital platforms and services fully. Let us take banking as an example. It is far more difficult to get face-to-face banking services and access to cash, so much more is moved online. However, if those services are not accessible, what use are they to people who have been physically excluded and are now being financially and digitally excluded in the digital space?

When it comes to sporting events, mention has been made of sport in our debates on earlier amendments. I think everyone in the Committee would agree that VAR has not demonstrated technology at its brightest and best in the sporting context. I wonder whether, if we completely turned referees into bots, there would be questions about the visual acuity of the bot on the decisions that it similarly made when it went against our team. If we are to have so many ticketing services for sporting, musical and cultural events available largely, if not exclusively, online—and if, at the front end of that process, there is the all-too-familiar CAPTCHA, which we must go through to prove that we are not yet a bot—what will happen if that is not accessible? We will not get tickets.

I put it to my noble friend the Minister that there needs to be more in Clause 20 and other parts of the Bill around the accessibility of those digital services, activities and platforms. If we could fully embrace the concept of “inclusive by design”, this would evaporate as an issue. I beg to move.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, this is quite a group of amendments. Clearly, it will take a bit of time to work our way through all of them. It is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, who is so knowledgeable about digital aspects—I thought that he would slip stuff about the digital aspects of sport into his introduction.

I am in curate’s egg country, as far as the two amendments in the name of the noble Lord are concerned. I am not quite sure about Amendment 15, but I look forward to the Minister’s response. I think Amendment 24 is absolutely spot on and really important. I hope that the noble Lord succeeds in putting it into the Bill, eventually.

I will start by speaking to Amendments 21, 28 and 55 on interoperability, Amendment 30 on copyright and Amendment 20 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. I will refer to Amendment 32 in the name of the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, but I will not speak on it for too long, because I do not want to steal his thunder. If possible, I will also speak to the amendments in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and the noble Lord, Lord Vaizey, on leveraging. They are crucial if the Bill is to be truly effective.

Interoperability is the means by which websites interoperate, as part of the fundamental web architecture. Current problems arise when SMS players make browser changers and interfere with open web data, such as header bidding, which is used for interoperability among websites. Quality of service and experience can be misused for the benefit of the platforms; they can degrade the interoperability of different systems or make video or audio quality either higher or lower for the benefit of their own apps and products.

At Second Reading, my noble friend Lord Fox reminded us that Professor Furman, in evidence in Committee in the Commons, said that intervention on interoperability is a vital remedy. My noble friend went on to say that interfering with interoperability in all its forms should be policed by the CMA, which should be

“proactive with respect to promoting international standards and aiming to create that interoperability: for a start, by focusing on open access and operational transparency, working for standards that allow unrestricted participation and favouring the technologies and protocols that prevent a single person or group amending or reversing transactions executed and recorded”.—[Official Report, 5/12/23; col. 1396.]

At my noble friend’s request, the Minister, the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, followed up with a letter on the subject on 7 December. He said:

“Standards are crucial to building the UK’s economic prosperity, safeguarding the UK’s national security, and protecting the UK’s norms and values. The Government strongly supports a multi-stakeholder approach to the development of technical standards, and it will be important that the CMA engages with this process where appropriate. The UK’s Plan for Digital Regulation, published in 2021, confirms the importance of considering standards as a complement or alternative to traditional regulation”.


It is good to see the Minister’s approach, but it is clear that there should be a stronger and more explicit reference to the promotion of interoperability in digital markets. The Bill introduces an interoperability requirement under Clause 20(3)(e) but, as it stands, this is very vague. Interoperability should be defined and the purpose of the requirement should be outlined; namely, to promote competition and innovation, so that content creators can provide their services across the world without interference and avoid platform dependency.

I move to Amendment 30. Breach of copyright online is a widespread problem. The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, referred to the whole IP issue, which is increasing in the digital world, but the current conduct requirements are not wide enough. There should be a simple obligation on those using others’ copyright to request the use of that material. As the NMA says, the opacity of large language models is a major stumbling block when it comes to enforcing rights and ensuring consumer safety. AI developers should be compelled to make information about systems more readily available and accessible. Generative outputs should include clear and prominent attributions, which flag the original sources of the output. This is notable in the EU’s proposed AI Act.

This would allow citizens to understand whether the outputs are based on reliable information, apart from anything else.

If publishers are not fairly compensated for the use of the content by generative AI systems in particular—I look towards the noble Lord, Lord Black, at this point—and lose audiences to them, it will harm publisher sustainability and see less money invested in quality journalism. In turn, less trusted content will be available to train and update AI systems, harming innovation and increasing the chance that these systems produce unreliable results.

Electronic Trade Documents Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Consideration of Commons amendments
Wednesday 19th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I add my thanks to the Minister for moving these amendments from the Commons. He has shown remarkable consistency with the words of his honourable friend Mr Scully in the Commons—I think word for word it is what he said, so that is excellent. I see other members of the committee here; I am only sorry that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, is not here to see the final process and see this legislation go forward.

I welcome these amendments, because it means that the legislation will cover the whole United Kingdom, and that the exception power in Clause 5 will operate across the UK. Could the Minister say whether anything is in contemplation under Clause 5 to be excepted in using that power across the UK?

I very much agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, said about a plan for implementation. This is a much more important Bill than it appears at first sight, and we should really speed it on its way in implementation terms.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to support the amendments as set out. In doing so, I declare my technology interests as set out in the register.

This is the most important Bill that no one has ever heard of. It demonstrates what we can do when we combine the potential of these new technologies with the great good fortune of common law that we have in this country. I particularly support the comments made by the noble Lords, Lord Bassam and Lord Clement-Jones, about the Government’s plan for implementation. Although it is obviously critical that we get Royal Assent to this Bill as soon as possible, that is really where the work begins. As my noble friend the Minister knows, the Bill is rightly permissive in nature; it cannot be that, having done all the work through both Houses of Parliament, the Bill is then just left on the shelf. There needs to be an active plan for implementation, communicating to all the sectors and all the organisations, institutions and brilliant businesses in this space to seize the opportunity that comes from electronic trade documents. Does my noble friend the Minister agree— and will he fill out some more detail on what that implementation plan is?

Electronic Trade Documents Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Lords Special Public Bill Committee
Monday 20th February 2023 Other Business

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, I thank everyone involved in getting the Bill to this stage, not least Professor Green and her team at the Law Commission, our clerks and team here in the House and everyone who has been involved. As a committee, we benefited hugely from the expert and excellent chairmanship of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, with all his legal experience in this space, not the least of which was an interesting case, which he recounted to the committee, involving a large consignment leaving the port of Bordeaux. All the committee members’ ears pricked up at that point, only to prick down, if ears can do so, when it turned out that the consignment was grain, rather than any product from the right or left bank of the Gironde that may perhaps have been of more interest.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, set out the point absolutely clearly: that the Bill demonstrates what we can do when we combine common law with our new technologies. It is right that we conceive of blockchain, distributed ledger technology, AI, machine learning and all the new technologies as tools. They are incredibly powerful and may be incredibly positive, but they are still tools that we humans have to determine how to deploy.

The Electronic Trade Documents Bill is a trade-enabling, trade-empowering Bill, through the potential of electronic trade documents. In reality, however, it is at its heart a new technologies Bill—new technologies in combination with English common law, brought to bear in the area of international trade in this instance.

As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, pointed out, the most important stage is after Royal Assent, when the hugest sales job must, rightly, be done on the Bill to get traders in this country, banks and other people involved in the international trade business, like insurers, to very much get behind and use electronic trade documents. Rightly, the Bill is permissive rather than mandatory. That is quite correct, but it means that this sales job must be done.

Secondly, this sales job must be done, rightly, through His Majesty’s Government in all the international fora —through bilaterals, trilaterals and all means—to demonstrate to other nation states the benefit of incorporating MLETR into their domestic legislation. To put it plainly, what purpose would the UK passing the Bill have if other nations have not taken MLETR into their legislation and enabled that international trade, which can be done in seconds rather than days?

As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, perfectly pointed out, the benefit to the environment and net zero should not be missed in any sense here. Currently, in trade, it may take seven to 10 days for a bill of lading document to be transferred to enable a shipment to move. This was illustrated so clearly during Covid, when the planes were grounded at London Heathrow with the trade documents on board and the ships queued up outside the Port of Singapore, unable to move for want of that physical document, which is so painfully papery. The Bill perfectly addresses that, enabling not only settlement in seconds but all that carbon, which would have been wasted in flights and timing, being wiped away through the implementation of the Bill.

Can my noble friend the Minister therefore say whether he will ensure that there is real cross-department and cross-Whitehall consideration not just of what we have learned through the Electronic Trade Documents Bill process but of how we can look to every possibility, in every potential context, to combine common law with the new technologies available, for the benefit of citizen and state alike?

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I was struck by the Minister saying that today’s stand part debates are an opportunity to show our workings. He is admirably qualified to be a Science Minister on that basis.

I add my thanks to the Law Commission, to our witnesses for both their oral and written evidence, to the clerks and staff on the committee in particular and, overwhelmingly, to our chair, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, who has guided us so carefully and successfully through the thickets of the MLETR and the common law. I very much hope that the Minister and the House authorities more generally will take note of our chair’s comments on the procedure and the serendipity of the fact that we had time successfully to get the evidence and so on. If we had not had the intervening period of Christmas, this would have been extremely difficult.

I fully endorse—as opposed to indorse—what the chair said about the hard part being the practical application and adoption of the Bill. He mentioned the letter from Barclays, which is worth a little consideration because it is very encouraging. It came in rather late, but it expresses quite an appetite from its customers for the Bill, which bodes well:

“Our customers want trade to be simpler, faster and more digital, enabling them to complete trade deals in hours and days rather than weeks and months … The security and compliance of trade will also be strengthened through the proposals in the ETD Bill … The proposals in the ETD Bill will also result in a significant reduction of the estimated 25 billion paper documents generated and couriered around the world each year”—


the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, made this point. That net-zero aspect is extremely important in all of this. The letter says,

“Overall, we are confident that the … Bill will be a positive boost to UK trading”.


On implementation, the Barclays letter picks up the point about the new trade digitisation task force. It would be useful if the Minister could give us a little more information about that, if he has any, particularly in relation to some of the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, on the duty or opportunity for the taskforce to encourage the adoption of new technologies, which will of course be absolutely crucial. The letter, again, stresses the need for UK leadership, so the trade digitisation task force will clearly have an international engagement duty. It would be useful if the Minister could unpack that a little so that we know that the Law Commission’s work, which we carried on, will bear fruit in due course.

We very much hope to see that the Bill has all the advantages set out in that Barclays letter.