Airports: Heathrow
Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts(11 years, 3 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My noble friend is quite right in his analysis of a possible solution. Indeed, that is what happens. A committee called HADACAB determines whether we need to cancel some flights in advance in order to provide capacity to do things such as keep the runway clear. In addition, in future, as a result of the Civil Aviation Act 2012, the Civil Aviation Authority will be able to set resilience conditions on the operator’s licence, but that will not be until April 2014.
Lord Davies of Oldham
I am so sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, was unable to ask this Question. That would have given me the opportunity to agree with him twice in consecutive days, which would be some kind of record as far as he and I are concerned.
As the Minister is so well briefed as to tell us what other European airports suffered delays, will he put in the Library an analysis of these problems, because north American airports, which have vastly more problems with snow than the UK, seem to keep planes flying through a great deal of it? It would be interesting to have a real, proper comparison.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the way I would explain the situation with regard to my noble friends Lord Forsyth and Lady Browning is: out of the frying pan and into the fire.
As the noble Lord will understand, the meteorological conditions in north America are very different from those at Heathrow. It is interesting to note, however, that airports such as Zurich, Geneva and Basle also experienced cancellations.
Helicopter Flights: Central London
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, when we have a disaster such as this we need to look at the technical aspects and listen to the advice from the Air Accidents Investigation Branch and the Civil Aviation Authority. As to the planning system, that is a rather different question; we have debated planning quite a lot recently in your Lordships’ House.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, one feature of the response to the crash was the speed and efficiency with which the emergency services dealt with the accident. Is the Minister aware that the fire appliance that arrived there early came from Clapham fire station, which, under the mayor’s proposals, is due for closure? Will the inquiry examine that point? Does not this crash indicate how dangerous it is to cut back on our essential emergency services?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is for the Air Accidents Investigation Branch to choose whether or not to comment on this matter. Provision of fire cover in London is a matter for the mayor under the legislation introduced by the party opposite.
Scrap Metal Dealers Bill
Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts(11 years, 3 months ago)
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The Lord Bishop of Exeter
I should briefly indicate the support of these Benches for the wise words of the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner. Small country churches and churches in urban areas, which often have small, very poor congregations, find themselves at the forefront of these metal thefts over and over again, and then they find themselves hard-pressed to get the insurance cover that they need. If these amendments go through, the development will be viewed with great alarm and great distress by many people in small churches up and down the country.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I strongly support the points put by my noble friend Lord Faulkner. I have had experience of these procedures in relation to the Commons. In 1977, I introduced an estate agents’ Bill that tried to deal with the scandal, at the time, of members of the public depositing money in the care of estate agents, and then almost as soon as that money was received, the estate agents’ offices closed down, the estate agents disappeared and the money was lost. There was widespread support for the remedy of that abuse and the House of Commons supported the Bill, apart from two Members who persisted through all stages, not against the merits of the Bill—how on earth could they do so?—but simply on the grounds that there was far too much legislation and they saw no reason why the Bill should go through. The result was that, two years later, the incoming Conservative Government took up the Bill and eventually it was passed and the abuse was remedied.
However, at the time, there was a delay of several years when, as Members of this House will recall, house purchases were taking place at a very intensive rate. Estate agents were mushrooming all over the place, although they were not the reputable ones who would not have dreamed of carrying out such a scandal, but fly-by-nights. The abuse continued for several years because of the delay in the legislation coming into force. The warning given by my noble friend about the dangers of these amendments should be heeded.
Baroness Browning
My Lords, when I became a Minister at the Home Office in 2011, metal theft was part of my portfolio of ministerial responsibilities. At the very first briefing I received on it, I was immediately seized of the fact that legislation and change needed to happen. Of course, having been a constituency MP, I was already aware of the difficulties and the serious crimes that were being committed, as Members have again outlined today.
Reference has been made to the Report stage of this Private Member’s Bill in the other place, taken forward by Richard Ottaway. Having studied it, Members will see that more than 70 amendments were tabled on one day. The reality is that, whatever our views on the way in which the other place conducts its business, had an accommodation and a promise not been given, we would not have received the Bill in this House at all.
My starting point is that this is a necessary Bill. I am enormously grateful for the support that it has received across the House, not least from the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester. He knows that I am very grateful for his support in taking this Bill forward. However, what I am about to say may sound old-fashioned, but I believe that it is important in another place and in this Chamber: I believe that if a mover of a Bill—in this case, my honourable friend Richard Ottaway MP moved the Bill in another place—and a government Minister give their word that they will do something, the honourable thing to do is to honour that pledge and I am now moving this Bill in your Lordships’ House.
Too often, politics is brought into disrepute because politicians play fast and loose with their word. A gentleman’s handshake and the word of an honourable man or woman is no longer held in esteem in this country and, passionate as I am for this Bill and as grateful as I am to the noble Lord for his support, I intend to do the honourable thing today if he chooses to move the amendment to a vote. I will keep the word of a politician and the word that has been given by a Minister. Others may choose to do as they will, but I believe that that is what I should do and that is what my political career for the past 30 years has taught me is the right thing to do.
I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Attlee for moving the amendment. Of course, a three-year review is already built into the substance of the Bill anyway, so it is not as though this will be put on the statute and left to see how it gets on. There are checks and balances here. Therefore, I ask the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, not to press this to a vote.
Airports: Capacity
Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts(11 years, 4 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, I understand that there are some difficulties with the runway orientation of Northolt airfield. I am sure that that is a factor that the Airports Commission will take into consideration.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, in his opening response the noble Earl referred to the fact that a consensus was necessary to make progress over the considerable period of time needed to expand airport capacity. Although he quoted 86% for the south-east airports, we know that Heathrow is at over 99% utilisation and has no scope at all for development. The Opposition have offered to the Government for more than a year now the opportunity to establish a consensus by joint talks. Could the noble Earl at least persuade his ministerial colleagues that these should take place, and that they would be aided by a somewhat earlier timetable for the commission’s report? Why is it having to report after the general election when the urgency of the situation is apparent to everyone?
Earl Attlee
The noble Lord makes a strong point. The Airports Commission will report with its initial findings by the end of the year. I would be delighted to talk to the noble Lord privately when we get that initial report. But it takes time to do the job properly.
Public Bodies (Abolition of the Railway Heritage Committee) Order 2013
Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts(11 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Cormack
My Lords, as president of the All-Party Parliamentary Arts and Heritage Group I would like to add one brief comment. First, I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, for what he has done. Secondly, it is self-evident that the work of this committee must carry on. It is often better to allow a group of enthusiasts, who are totally dedicated to a specific thing, to carry on rather than have it subsumed within a larger organisation. I have seen this happen with the subsuming of the Historical Manuscripts Commission, on which I sat for almost 25 years, into National Archives. Although I pay tribute to what National Archives seeks to do, the specialist knowledge and specific determination that were embodied in the commission have largely gone.
When there are relatively small and perhaps even obscure groups doing a very good job, it is a pity to sweep them away in the name of quango-clearing. This was not a costly quango: it was a body of dedicated enthusiasts doing a good job.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I am somewhat surprised that the Minister did not think that there would be a view from the opposition Front Bench on this issue, particularly given the Government’s record in handling this matter. Speeches from both sides of the House have clearly stated the advantages of preserving volunteers and their work, the spirit that they bring to that work and their achievements, which are on record. When they swept this particular element of largely volunteer work and constructive work by communities, the Government were seeking to establish the great society.
Lord Davies of Oldham
The big society. I am not quite sure where the big society has gone in the mean time but this particular legislation, the Public Bodies Bill, was about reducing contributions to the so-called big society. It engaged in a whole plethora of activities people who were knowledgeable, committed and able to do their work well because of their enthusiasm.
Of course the Public Bodies Bill did not go through this House unscathed, and I make no apologies for the fact that the Front Bench had inevitably to identify a large number of public bodies that were being swept away. After all, basically each government department had to produce a sacrificial list for the Government to show that it was playing its part in getting rid of public bodies. We were bound to concentrate on the big issues. When this Bill was abolishing the chief coroner, for instance, we sharply debated that dimension of the Bill, and we did the same when the Agricultural Wages Board was abolished. One can understand that an organisation such as the Railway Heritage Society, which was receiving only £100,000 in support for all its work, was bound to come lower on the order of priorities as far as our general concerns for the welfare of society were concerned.
Lord Davies of Oldham
I am grateful to my noble friend, but he will forgive me if I feel that the challenges that we ought to put down today are not to former members of the Cabinet but to Ministers who speak in this House on behalf of members of the Cabinet still exercising power at present. The Minister should recognise that the contributions today have shown how necessary it was for him to make the shift that has been made regarding the original intention of abolition, and not to care little about what happens subsequently. It is quite clear that the Government have understood that necessary work needs to go on, but my noble friend Lord Faulkner has identified where they are still falling short of giving a guarantee that this work will be carried out as thoroughly as it has been done in the past. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will give some clear answers to my noble friend, because the anxieties of the House are manifest.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful for the kind words from the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester. Noble Lords supporting him seemed to be a bit more strident than the noble Lord himself. As your Lordships will be aware, I am also very keen on the preservation of our country’s transport heritage, particularly road transport vehicles. Sadly, I do not have enough time to get involved with railway preservation. However, no one should underestimate the sterling work of the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner. You can have thousands of volunteers on the ground, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, but you need the support of people such as the noble Lord to skilfully interface with central government.
In moving his amendment, the noble Lord talked about the scope of the order. The noble Lord will know that Ministers gave very careful consideration to these matters but, for the reasons outlined in my opening remarks, it was not possible to accede to his request. However, we recognise that the structure of the rail industry has changed in recent years, and indeed a number of respondents to the consultation indicated that they should be included in the scope of the designation powers.
Wider changes to the way in which the designation process operates, which would require changes to the 1996 Act, would also be beyond the scope of what can be done in relation to the RHC under the Public Bodies Act. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport will carry out a review within three years, after the designation function has transferred to the board of trustees of the Science Museum, in order to establish whether further bodies, or classes of bodies, should be included within the scope of the 1996 Act and whether the burden on bodies, as a result of the exercise of the designation function, can be reduced.
The noble Lord referred to the problem of well meaning members of the public and the benefits of having the RHC, or an equivalent, to determine these designation matters. I agree entirely. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, with whom I have never debated before, spoke about the work and the need for the designation function. He is quite right—that is why I was able to persuade my right honourable friend the Secretary of State to retain the designation function.
The noble Lord, Lord Snape, made a great speech but seemed to have missed the point that his noble friend had saved the designation function. It will carry on, as requested by my noble friend Lord Cormack. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked what the difference was between the RHC and the Science Museum Group. It is not just about the costs but about improving efficiency and effectiveness.
I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, will feel free to withdraw his amendment and that the House will agree my order.
Cycling: Infrastructure
Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, following on from the previous question, is the Minister not concerned that the accident rate for cyclists is increasing alarmingly, especially in London? Cyclists have a particular problem in coping with large roundabouts where there are no regulated lanes. Several of the deaths have occurred at such roundabouts. Why do the Government not take up the programme that the Times has launched, “Cities fit for cycling”, in which it says that in order to get dedicated cycle lanes and improve our safety record we need £100 million a year spent on cycling?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that we are paying close attention to the Times campaign for the very reasons that the noble Lord points out. This is of course a Question about the Highways Agency, which has a range of local network management schemes to make improvements where cycle routes cross the strategic route network or there are segregation problems.
Disabled Persons’ Parking Badges Bill
Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, as has been indicated by a number of speakers in the debate, we all owe a real debt to the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas of Winchester, for sponsoring this Bill and introducing it into the House. We also appreciate the accuracy with which she took us through each clause, hoping, I think, to ward off too many contributions which might stray a little far from its direct content. That is in the nature of Private Member’s Bills. This House always has a large number of noble Lords with experience in the field of any particular Private Member’s Bill. They will make their major issues part of the debate. Therefore, I hope the Minister will not be too upset by the fact that several contributions already have ranged quite widely in advocacy of the interests of the disabled. I hope, too, that I may be forgiven in that respect.
As my noble friend Lord Macdonald indicated, this Bill clearly has cross-party support. We from the opposition Front Bench wish it every success. We appreciate of course that the Bill is also derivative of the seminal work of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970, which our great friend Lord Morris of Manchester introduced at that time. He of course succeeded subsequently in developing many areas of work of great help to the disabled. I am pleased that this is my first opportunity to put that on record. I knew Alf for nearly 40 years. There was no one I held in greater respect in terms of his contribution. This issue with regard to the blue badge is a small tribute to his work. The blue badge scheme is of course of immense value to the disabled, but because of that it also incurs the tendency to a great deal of fraud and illegitimate use. That is why we welcome the fact that the Bill tightens up areas in significant ways that will aid the direct purposes of the blue badge concept—that is, service to the disabled.
I hope that the Minister is able to reassure us that there are no extra demands upon the resources of local authorities as a consequence of the Bill because we are all too well aware that our local authority budgets are greatly stretched at present. I want some reassurance on that front. Also, have the Government addressed this question of enforcement? We all recognise the very different concepts of civil enforcement and the operation of the police with regard to criminal enforcement. The police are able pretty much instantaneously to have access to the police databank on vehicles and their misuse. I am not at all sure that the enforcement officers envisaged in this Bill would have anything like that access to the resources necessary for them to carry out the role.
Let me say how very difficult this can be. On this occasion, an authority acted in my view entirely properly but it was of great distress to a dear neighbour of mine who is safely into her 90s. First, she found that in order to renew her badge there was a six-week period and she was late with that so the new badge was not issued in time. She got a ticket for the car parked outside her house in her reserved space because the old badge was out of date. Credit is due to those carrying out enforcement, except that they might have regarded the situation of a ratepayer of the local authority perched on a space correctly created for her with a little more understanding and consideration. Worse, she went straight to the local authority to complain about this and parked in a disabled spot. When she came out, a second ticket had appeared on her car. We need to recognise that as far as the disabled are concerned some understanding needs to be employed. I am therefore interested in this question of enforcement. We all want rigorous enforcement against those who misuse badges but we also want to make sure that the interests of those who legitimately use badges are safeguarded.
The Minister will also want to comment on the issue raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton. We recognise how limited appeals were to the Secretary of State and there is no great loss in the withdrawal of that particular aspect but we want to be reassured about the question of appeals against the withdrawal of a badge. We all know how significant a badge is to a disabled person. It would be a significant loss, which can only be justified if every conceivable angle on the issue has been considered. That is why we need some kind of consideration on the question of scope for appeals.
I also appreciated the contribution by my noble friend Lord Dubs, who pressed the case for consistency with regard to application. Life is complex enough for all of us who cope with the myriad problems of parking. For the disabled to have the additional difficulties of the complexity and uncertainty of application is something we must take very seriously. I want reassurances from the Minister that the points that my noble friend Lord Dubs made will be taken fully into account.
This has been an extraordinarily constructive debate. It has shown the House at its best in circumstances where we seek to aid a very important part of our community—the disabled—and particularly to protect them in areas where the existence of fraud in the use of badges has been a clear abuse and very much to their detriment and the effectiveness of the scheme. I very much welcome the extent to which the Bill advances the interests of the scheme and gives great help to the disabled.
Roads: Roadworks
Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am not convinced that there is the problem that the noble Lord describes. With the permit system, the contractor has to tell the local authority when the work should be completed. If it is not completed on time, the local authority can impose overrun charges. However, I will take this up with my officials and make sure that there is not an unresolved problem.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, something is wrong in the state of Denmark and on the roads of Britain, too. The noble Earl has identified the virtues of the legislation passed in 1999 and 2004. Utilities are meant to notify, and to be subject to penalties, if they do not complete the work in time. However, statistics show that road congestion due to roadworks is costing £2 billion a year. What on earth is going wrong with enforcement in this area?
Airports (Amendment) Bill [HL]
Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, like other noble Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Empey, on his persistence with regard to this issue, the skill with which he has mobilised degrees of support for it and the work that he has done in Europe. He is absolutely right that one of the crucial constraining forces regarding the development of aviation is clearly the European powers. We all recognise that aviation has to have a European dimension as well as the issue of world-wide connections.
The debate has focused to an extent on slots. Let us be clear about slots. Whatever happens to slots in terms of their role in the market and developments in aviation—the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, emphasised how rapidly aviation develops and other noble Lords also made that point—we are dealing with a rapidly changing environment. That is why we should be greatly concerned that critical decisions about aviation are being postponed until the report of Sir Howard Davies after the next general election. We have already built in a three-year delay to the report. Certainly, after the report has been considered and then debated and then action is taken, in crucial areas of aviation policy we will have had a built-in delay of several years. That is bound to cost us dear.
It is a fact that slots do not increase airport capacity. We can re-jig the usage of slots. I was going to say re-jig the ownership of slots. The interesting thing about slots is the concept of ownership. It is clear that one aspect of ownership revolves around national governments, who can intervene on the issue of the public service obligation—an interventional power already existing with the Secretary of State. It is also the case that airports own the runways and the landing stages that accommodate passengers getting onto and off aircraft. Therefore, that airlines own the slots is an interesting concept. They certainly go in for a limited amount of trading and it is their actions, through mergers and so on, that give rise to very great anxieties when it is thought that the slots that they obtain through mergers may be allocated to other traffic.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, rightly identified a concern with regard to Northern Ireland but, as we heard earlier this week during proceedings on the Bill, other parts of the United Kingdom are also concerned. The concern is that services will be reduced and not increased by competition—it is difficult to see what other forms of transport are going to increase competition in Northern Ireland—as the slots controlled by the airlines may be used for more financially remunerative packages. A slot that is transferred from the region to international traffic may significantly improve the financial advantage to the airline. That is why these issues are so significant.
The Minister has had a demanding week so I will not pile too much on him on a Friday afternoon but this debate has raised acute issues with regard to aviation serving the regions. However, it is difficult to talk about Northern Ireland and its aviation needs without adding that other regions have comparable anxieties about slots. Other regions also have very real concerns about economic development. I emphasise the fact that the regions were considerably distressed by the loss of the regional development agencies which gave them some hope of attracting employers and developing employment. We all realise that in a recession the regions of the United Kingdom need help.
Northern Ireland is a very specific case as regards aviation although I accept the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, that in terms of distance and the availability of alternative forms of transport the north of Scotland also comes within this frame. What, therefore, do the Government need to do? They must address this issue urgently, not least because the amount of activity that is going on in Europe at present requires the Government to take a stance on it. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, identified, if the European Parliament and the Commission reach a position on this issue, what happens at the Council of Ministers becomes critical. The United Kingdom is an important member of the Council of Ministers so we would expect the Minister responding today to give an indication of commitment as regards the policy to be adopted.
We all recognise that aspects of the free market with regard to air travel have produced considerable benefits. We all recognise the expansion of air travel that has occurred, as identified by the noble Lord, Lord Lexden. However, we are also aware of market failure and the necessity for the Government on occasion to act intelligently and perceptively for the good of the people. That is exactly the case which the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has identified in his Bill. I hope the Minister will appreciate that in this critical area we are getting past the stage of easily postponing decisions. Time marches on and the threat to the regions from the loss of effective links with Heathrow is mounting. Therefore, the Government need to be clear about how they are going to address this issue. If they do not accept the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Empey—I guess that he is not totally optimistic of full endorsement from the government Front Bench at this stage—they ought at least to give some clear answers to the very real issues that have been raised in this debate. The Minister will have winced at those issues at times because he recognises that even on his own Benches there are conflicting views on what needs to be done. Therefore, let us have some clarity in his response.
Civil Aviation Bill
Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Davies of Oldham
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, Amendment 2 seeks to amend the government amendment which the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, has commended to the House. I commend his work to the House, too, because he has responded to the pressure exerted in Committee about the failure of the Bill to address significantly the role of aviation and the regulated airports in relation to the environment. Environmental issues are high on the nation’s agenda and the contribution of aviation in this regard is of considerable concern. The Opposition have sought to work constructively to improve the Bill and I am grateful to the Minister for his attempts to do so.
I do not shy away from the fact that, were his amendments carried, they would represent an improvement to the Bill, but not significant enough an improvement for the issue concerned. After all, the Government constantly seek to bask in their green credentials, but in recent months, tensions have been exposed as they wrestle with the practicalities of the green agenda. The nation is conscious of the fact that a certain amount of backsliding has been going on. That showed itself in the support offered to home insulation and in the clash between Ministers in the Department of Energy and Climate Change when the Secretary of State was effectively forced to correct the position adopted by a junior Minister on the issue of wind farms.
Of course, on the issue of aviation, we are all too aware of dither and delay. We all know that the most significant issue of all facing the Government is the future of airports in the south-east and how they are meant to cope with the demand predictions of the future. This issue—I refer in particular to the graphic case of London Heathrow—has been kicked into the long grass of a post-election report. Sir Howard Davies is not to produce his analysis of what needs to be done until after the next general election.
The Bill had its origins under the previous Administration and under that Administration it was clearly indicated that there would be significant concern about aviation as regards the environment and that the Bill would set out to make provisions to meet the necessary responsibilities. We were to expect clarity in the Bill, yet we seem to have the same evasion in the Bill as we have seen with regard to other crucial areas of policy.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, my noble friend has moved Amendment 1 and the noble Lord, Lord Davies, has moved Amendment 2. Amendment 2 may have some merit to it but I am having some difficulty in connecting his speech to the amendment.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I was coming to that. The noble Lord has anticipated my very next sentence. It was necessary to identify the context because that explains why, on a consensual Bill, on which we have sought to work with the Government to improve the Bill and on which we recognise the efforts of the Government represented in Amendment 1, there is still a crucial area of difference. The government amendment is expressed in terms of the desirability of each holder of a licence. Power does not seek to emphasise desirability; power seeks to define will: what the Government want to see happen, not what they would like to see happen, as if in some way they can rely on a general response of good will. Of course, in many areas they can, but this is an area of crucial aviation policy with regard to airports. Our amendment to the government amendment says that, in place of a fairly wishy-washy concept of desiring that things should happen, there should be an obligation.
That issue is clear enough, and important enough, for us to press this issue despite the good will of the Minister and the efforts to respond. The response is too mealy-mouthed to achieve the objectives that this Bill should achieve with regard to the protection and improvement of the environment. It will become clear during the proceedings today that on many aspects of the Bill we agree with a great deal of what the Government are doing. However, in this area, the government amendment does not stand the test. That is why I have tabled this amendment. I beg to move.
Earl Cathcart
My Lords, I am by and large happy with the government amendments in this group and will talk particularly to Amendments 1 and 7. The wording is not precisely what we asked for, but my noble friend Lord Attlee has clearly listened to the arguments expressed in Committee, on all sides, and has gone a long way to addressing these concerns.
I will say something on Amendments 2 and 8 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Davies. I share his concern that “desirability” is rather limp—I think the noble Lord used the word “wishy-washy”. I would much rather have seen the word “duty” in there, as I feel we all have a duty to the environment in whatever we do and the aviation industry should be no exception. I would like to have seen the licence holder having a duty, using the words of the government amendment,
“to take reasonable measures to reduce, control or mitigate the adverse environmental effects of the airport”.
However, that is not where we are. The Government have used the word “desirability” in their amendment, for the reason given by my noble friend Lord Attlee, and I do not suppose that they are inclined to accept any amendment to that.
Is the Government’s amendment fit for the purpose that we argued for in Committee? I believe that it is. Although there is no mention that the licence holder should have a duty to have regard to the impact of airports on local communities, which is something that I argued for in Committee, I believe that these amendments will deal with the impact of airports on the environment. Importantly, these amendments will provide the CAA with the flexibility it needs to allow regulated airports to invest in sensible measures to reduce the environmental impact of their operations, without fear of legal challenge from an airline, whose main preoccupation, in this regard, is simply to minimise airport charges. That was the kernel of the argument in Committee, and my noble friend Lord Attlee has addressed it. I welcome these government amendments as they stand, and I thank the Minister and his team for listening and responding.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, for his measured and eloquent explanation of the purpose and effect of his amendments in this group. The noble Lord touched on London airports and I am grateful for his wise decision to adhere to the subject of the Bill in his various amendments and resist the temptation to table an amendment about Heathrow airport. However, I have some difficulty with his amendments.
I urge noble Lords to consider the merits of the amendments that the Government have tabled to address the specific concern of the impact of the airport economic regulatory regime on the environment. Amendments 2 and 8 seek to amend the Government’s amendments, which themselves add an environmental supplementary duty for the CAA and the Secretary of State in respect of their airport economic regulatory functions. The Government have broadly proposed a duty such that the CAA and the Secretary of State have regard to,
“the desirability of each holder of a licence … being able to take reasonable measures to reduce, control or mitigate the adverse environmental effects”.
In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Soley, if he reads my initial comments I think it will answer the question that he was posing. If it does not and there is more I can add, I will obviously write to noble Lords but I am confident in my position.
The amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, seek to change the wording slightly so that the CAA and the Secretary of State must have regard to the “need to secure that” a licence holder is,
“able to take reasonable measures to reduce, control or mitigate the adverse environmental effects”.
I am grateful to the noble Lords for tabling these amendments as it provides the opportunity to acknowledge the importance of allowing appropriate investment at airports to mitigate their environmental impacts and those of activities associated with them, where to do so furthers the interests of passengers and freight owners in the provision of airport operation services.
It is crucial that airport operators, whether or not they are subject to economic regulation, should be able to invest in appropriate environmental measures. This is, without doubt, something this Government support. There was a concern frequently raised in the House of Commons, as well as in Grand Committee. However, it is crucial that obligations should not be put on some airports but not on others, depending on their economic regulatory status. Our position is that a licensed airport operator should not be unable to recover through the regulatory settlement costs arising from undertaking environmental investment where an unregulated competitive airport would choose to incur similar costs for similar purposes. After all, the overall aim of economic regulation is often cited as delivering the outcomes that would occur in a competitive market.
Therefore, it is my belief that environmental investment that is in passengers’ interests in the provision of airport operation services should be capable of being included in an airports regulatory settlement. In answer to the detailed question asked by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester, I would prefer to write to him, but I suspect that my answer will hinge on the point that this part of the Bill is concerned with the regulation of airports, not of airlines and aircraft. If noble Lords want to check up, they should carefully read my letter. In answer to the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Hudnall, we believe that the government amendments are clear. I hope that noble Lords will agree that Amendment 1 goes to the heart of their concerns and that these further changes are unnecessary. I therefore hope that the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, will be willing to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I apologise to the House if I was rather long-winded in the introduction, but as I was slow to start, I therefore hope to be succinct to finish. The debate has clarified, even if I did not succeed in doing so, exactly the issue at stake. Let me make it absolutely clear that we are not asking for the CAA, as an economic regulator, to have any other powers that other economic regulators, such as Ofwat or Ofgas, enjoy. We are merely pressing the Government to show proper concern for the environment. I praised the Minister for the extent to which he has moved down that path, but I am as dissatisfied as other Members of the House with the word desirability because, in legislative terms, that does not look like an expression of the will to get things done. There is no point in enjoining the CAA to do things, encouraging it to do so or hoping that it will; it is a serious body with serious functions to carry out, and it will do what is established in statute for it to do. We need to be precise about—
Earl Attlee
The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, is very insistent and persuasive. He is clearly convinced that his amendments will improve the Bill. My Bill team manager will probably kill me, but I can accept Amendment 2 and Amendment 8, which is consequential on Amendment 2. Both these amendments amend Amendment 1, but I would like to make it clear that only Amendment 8 is consequential.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, is nothing if not persistent in his position with regard to GBA. We of course listened very carefully to what he had to say in Committee. I must say that it is an interesting situation where the Minister is not prepared to countenance amendments which would have given the responsibility to the CAA, but he will accept amendments that would take it a notch higher to the Secretary of State. I imagine that the Minister will have a rejoinder to that.
It would help the House if we were given a perspective on the dimensions of GBA and its impact on airports. The only figure that we have had quoted this afternoon in terms of capacity was when the Minister adumbrated that Heathrow is very close to 98% or 99% capacity, a figure that chills all of us when we think about the demands on the airport. I do not know what percentage of that is GBA and I would be grateful if the Minister, when he discusses this, would give us some perspective on this issue.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Rotherwick for tabling these amendments and I admire his dedication to general aviation. General and business aviation are both important parts of the broader aviation industry. My noble friend is entirely free to regroup his amendments, but I have to apologise to the House if I do not quite manage to match my remarks to his amendments, although I am confident that, taken together, my remarks will cover most of my noble friend’s points.
I understand that the intention of my noble friend is to provide for a general and business aviation champion at the Department for Transport. However, having carefully considered the impact of these amendments, I cannot accept them as I do not believe that they deliver this intention.
As your Lordships are aware, the clear focus of Chapter 1 is on the economic regulation of a few major airports, presently Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted. At these large international airports there is very little general and business aviation activity. The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, asked me for some numbers so it may be helpful to illustrate this with data from the Civil Aviation Authority. In June of this year, general aviation represented less than 1% of total aircraft movements at Heathrow; at Gatwick, less than 2%; Stansted had more, at 8%. The overwhelming majority of flights from these three airports are commercial air transport. Furthermore, when we consider the relatively small number of people involved in a general aviation flight, as opposed to a commercial flight, the actual percentage in terms of people affected is far smaller.
That is not to say that general aviation should be ignored. I ask noble Lords to consider Clause 69, which defines “air transport service” as,
“a service for the carriage by air of passengers or cargo”.
Thus, business aviation, and indeed most flights with multiple occupants using a regulated airport, are already covered in the Bill. As such, there is no need to make a specific reference to general and business aviation.
Although I appreciate my noble friend’s desire to see the interests of general and business aviation represented, we must look at the broader picture. Heathrow is the busiest airport in Europe. Gatwick and Stansted together account for a third of aircraft movements in the whole of the London area. These are immensely busy airports. Realistically, we must prioritise the tens of thousands of commercial airliners landing at these airports every month. As your Lordships will appreciate, it has always been a clear policy aim of this Bill to put passengers and cargo owners first in the regulation of our major airports. The Bill delivers this through clear and concise duties, focused on passengers and owners of cargo, for both the Secretary of State and the CAA. The amendments proposed here would ultimately undermine this aim while, as I have demonstrated, delivering limited benefit to those it focuses on.
My noble friend Lord Rotherwick asked about EC resolution 2008/2134. The Government welcome the resolution and are broadly supportive. Moreover, in its present form the resolution represents a high-level direction of policy. We await concrete proposals from the Commission and are keen to see movement soon. At present the resolution is not legally binding and as a caveat I must add that many of its recommendations are not directly appropriate to the UK because the vast majority of our airfields are in private ownership, as I am sure my noble friend recognises. However, this is not the right vehicle to address these concerns.
My noble friend’s Amendment 6 concerns a change to the Secretary of State’s duties. I must point out that the Secretary of State has comparatively few functions in Part 1 of this Bill. As your Lordships are aware, this is very much a conscious decision of the Government to remove central government involvement from the regulatory process. The Secretary of State’s role is limited to just three distinct functions to which these duties apply: first, some of the Secretary of State’s regulation-making powers in Chapters 1 and 3 of the Bill; secondly, the issuing of guidance to the CAA which the CAA must have regard to; and finally, notifying the CAA of the international obligations of the United Kingdom.
I acknowledge the intent of Amendment 11 in obliging the preparation and publishing of a statement of policy, but the limited nature of the Secretary of State’s role means that requisite consultation before the exercise of certain powers should meet this point. A statutory requirement in this context would be disproportionate.
I am sure that if my noble friend had had more time he would have sought equivalent amendments to the CAA’s general duties. Clearly, amending the Secretary of State’s duties without making corresponding amendments to the CAA’s duties could create undesirable consequences; for example, there may be conflicts where the Secretary of State issues guidance to the CAA.
Regardless of whether or not the amendments achieve what my noble friend intends them to achieve, I reiterate the Government’s position that this is not the right vehicle to address my noble friend’s concerns. For all airports where demand is higher than capacity for finite take-off and landing slots, this is generally reflected in the landing fees charged. In a competitive market, an airport operator is likely to prefer to receive flights with large numbers of passengers over those with fewer passengers where this enhances its profits. This is a further policy reason not to pay special regard to general and business aviation.
However, the Government recognise the valuable contribution of the general and business aviation sector. The CAA’s Strategic Review of General Aviation in 2006 estimated its contribution to the UK economy at £1.4 billion per annum. I know that my noble friend is very concerned about the retention of small airfields. I recently fulfilled an undertaking to meet with my right honourable friend the Minister of State for Transport about this important issue, and I impressed upon him the need to ensure that at some point in the future we do not wake up and find that we have too few airfields and that they are difficult to replace.
The vast majority of general and business aviation activity takes place from small airfields across the country. Chapter 1 of this Bill will not regulate the activities of these aerodromes unless they become dominant, which we believe to be extremely unlikely. I value the intentions behind these amendments, but I believe that they are not the most appropriate method of expressing them. I therefore ask that my noble friend considers withdrawing his amendment.
Lord Davies of Oldham
Lord Davies of Oldham
“( ) A licence must include an obligation on licence holders to procure and publish annual surveys of passenger satisfaction, including but not limited to—
(a) baggage handling services, and(b) arrangements for delays to affected air passengers.”
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, in moving Amendment 17 I shall also speak to the other three amendments in this group, which broadly encompasses the issues of passenger welfare. Amendment 17 would ensure that a licence includes an obligation on the licence holder to publish annual surveys on passenger satisfaction. This would be of considerable advantage to the industry: it would encourage improved performance at airports, and it would certainly give members of the travelling public some information on the relative performance of airports. It would therefore give a basis for what we all would want to see: improvement in passenger welfare at significant airports.
We have not the slightest doubt that there is considerable pressure from the public to improve welfare at airports. That is why the Select Committee on Transport in the other place emphasised that licences should be structured so as to address passenger satisfaction. One dimension of the issue which I am sure will occasion no surprise at all for regular air travellers is the issue of satisfaction with baggage handling. We all know the distress which is caused when baggage goes astray. I remember the time that I arrived in southern Africa and discovered that my baggage had been taken off the aircraft in Kenya, just a little way away. It contained everything that I intended to employ on the trip apart from my travelling clothes. The embarrassment was considerable. Of course, we know endless stories of the difficulties that passengers have had with baggage.
There needs to be a stimulus to improve performance. A requirement on the airport to indentify its efforts in these respects is important. It is not just a question of lost baggage—we all know the inordinate delay that can also occur. Experienced travellers always allow a certain amount of additional time for the retrieval of baggage. However, when one goes to a really efficient airport which delivers the baggage almost as soon as one can get to the retrieval hall, there is a distinct comparison with those airports that seem to have endless waits before the baggage appears.
I believe that improvement is going on in our major airports. On one occasion I came back from China via Paris because I could not get a direct flight to London. I arrived at London Stansted to find that my baggage was waiting virtually as I stepped off the aircraft and went into the hall. That is such a rare experience that I felt obliged to write to the authorities at Stansted to congratulate them on that achievement and to express the hope that it would be repeated on all future occasions—some luck.
These amendments are designed to improve what we all recognise needs to be improved with the handling of airports. The other dimension of which we are all too well aware is that airports have to take some responsibility for stranded passengers. We all recall—mercifully, the memory is ebbing away a little as each month goes by—almost two years ago when for a considerable time Heathrow had thousands of passengers stranded without any help or support of any kind and through no immediate fault of the airport in terms of the climatic conditions. However, it was subsequently identified that the problems lay with the treatment of the aircraft on the ground and the de-icing aspect. We know that there has been heavy investment to improve the situation following that event and that Heathrow should be congratulated on taking that action.
We need to keep up a standard of expectation that reduces the consequences of delay on passengers who otherwise, as has happened in the past, are left in the most unpleasant circumstances and bereft of any indication of what they are meant to do or how they should cope with their circumstances. Even if they could take action themselves, they have no information on which to work.
For all those reasons, passenger welfare is an important part of this Bill. Our amendments are designed to strengthen the Bill in respect of that important feature. I beg to move.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his amusing and thorough explanation of the reasons behind his amendments. I absolutely agree with him that the issue of lost baggage is extremely important. He observed that some airports are better than others.
If your Lordships will bear with me, I should like, first, to speak to Amendments 17, 18 and 19 to Clause 18, on licence conditions, and, secondly, to Amendment 57 to Clause 83, on the provision of information for the benefit of passengers and cargo owners. I can appreciate why the noble Lord wishes to discuss these amendments in a group as they all concern the undoubtedly important matter of passenger welfare but I also believe that there is good reason for speaking to them individually so that particular aspects of the amendments may be considered in full.
I am aware that amendments similar to Amendments 17, 18 and 19 were debated in the other place and I am grateful to have the opportunity to return to them today. I do not think that it can be denied that this Bill already recognises the importance of passengers and their interests. Indeed, this is enshrined in the primary duty which states that the CAA must carry out its functions in a manner which it considers will further the interests of users of air transport services in the provision of airport operation services.
As users of air transport services, passengers will clearly be at the heart of the CAA’s considerations. There can be no doubt that passengers desire and deserve efficient baggage handling services when they travel by air or that, when faced with delays, they are not left without advice and help where appropriate.
The experience of recent years has also demonstrated how vital it is that all airports prepare effectively for potential disruption. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, talked about the disruption from snow a couple of years ago. When I visited Gatwick and saw the lines of gleaming snow-clearing machinery and they told me how quickly they could clear the runways, I was quite confident that the last winter would be a mild one—and that is what happened.
What is clear is that the aviation sector as a whole needs to have effective means to deal with passenger welfare during disruption of services. However, one key purpose of the Bill is to provide the CAA as an independent regulator with the discretion and flexibility to deliver targeted and proportionate licences, containing conditions which it considers requisite after undertaking appropriate consultation. So while I can very much understand and empathise with the sentiment behind noble Lords’ amendments, I am unable to recommend putting them into the Bill.
These three amendments seek to include a requirement in Clause 18 that the CAA should be required to include specified matters in licence conditions. Under the clause, the CAA is empowered to impose licence conditions consistent with its Clause 1 duties, which go beyond matters related to the abuse of substantial market power. Therefore, the CAA will have the power to include licence conditions addressing the matters raised in these amendments when to do so furthers the interests of passengers and freight owners in the provision of airport operation services. Obviously, losing baggage clearly comes into that. However, what should be included in a licence will always be fact specific and will change over time. Therefore, I do not believe that introducing provisions as to express conditions would be appropriate.
Clause 18 provides the CAA with flexibility regarding if and how licence conditions should be included. If we were to use this Bill to set in stone certain points in licences, this would constrain the regulator’s freedom to decide what priority should be afforded to different passenger concerns and what costs should be allowed for the delivery of competing consumer priorities. I do not think it appropriate that government should determine what present and future passengers are most concerned about or what obligations should be included by the CAA in specific licences. Moreover, a prescriptive approach in the Bill is likely to make it more difficult for the regulator to adapt its approach to the changing needs and concerns of passengers. If we were to accept these amendments, this would oblige the CAA to give greater weight to these factors than other matters that might become equally or more important to passengers in future.
I would also seek to reassure noble Lords that they can be confident that the CAA would use the new licensing powers under the Bill to focus on matters such as operational resilience and passenger welfare in the event of extreme disruption. At the request of the Department for Transport, the CAA in January this year published an indicative licence which includes provisions on operational resilience. The proposals contained in condition 7 of this indicative licence would require the licence holder to operate the airport efficiently and to use its best endeavours to minimise detriment to passengers arising from disruption. It would also require the airport to draw up, consult on, and gain the CAA’s approval for an annual resilience plan, setting out how it will secure compliance with its obligations under the condition. The licence holder is then obliged to comply with commitments it has made in its resilience plan. In drafting this indicative licence, the CAA sought initial views from industry. Once the Bill is enacted, the CAA will begin to consult on proposed licence conditions for each airport that will be subject to regulation. This process will involve consideration of the extent to which it is necessary or expedient to include conditions in the licence regarding operational resilience and other matters such as passenger welfare.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I am grateful for that full answer. In fact, I did not actually raise the issue of border control, but the Minister is absolutely right to say that one of the anxieties of passengers is the difficulties that occur when there are hold-ups at immigration. Of course, we all subscribe to the position and understand entirely that border control has an important task to fulfil in safeguarding the people of this country, and we obviously wish it well in that role, nor should anything seek to inhibit the efficiency with which the border force carries it out.
However, I was concerned to identify the issue of delay simply because I feared that the Minister would do what he has done in his well informed manner—namely, talk in fairly general terms of what is to be done and what is going on. I am grateful to him for his indication of activity, particularly on the part of the CAA; however, I must say that there is a difference between what these amendments seek in terms of information for passengers and influence on their interests being taken seriously. That contrasts with what the CAA currently has—a consumer panel that does not look as if it addresses effectively the need for information flows that meet the kind of anxieties and difficulties that passengers face.
I hear what the Minister says about improvements, although it brought a slightly wry smile to this side of the House when he mentioned Gatwick’s ability to clear runways. The problems at Heathrow had been that aircraft could not be de-iced and taken out of their parking bays. The runways were not the issue there. None of us can anticipate the weather or the extent of the difficulties it may present. That indicates why it is necessary to be specific about passengers’ anxieties. These amendments set out to identify such areas against a background whereby passenger welfare needs to be emphasised in the responsibilities of the CAA.
However, the Minister could not have given a fuller and more considered reply and I therefore beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Davies of Oldham
“( ) The CAA may also provide advice and assistance to such persons in connection with security checks performed on users of civil air services who have religious clothing requirements in order that their dignity be maintained without compromising the rigour of those security checks.”
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I can move this amendment with some brevity. We have discussed the issue before, and I think that I can anticipate that the Government will have a constructive response. The issue is well known. For Sikhs in this country, security at airports can prove a great embarrassment if there is a request for them to have their turbans examined or if interference occurs with their headwear. It is not just Sikhs who have this anxiety, but we are more conscious of the Sikh position because of their numbers in this country, and because we had some practice on the issue of how to adjust the law to the particular religious position of Sikhs when we debated the compulsory wearing of motorcycle helmets back in the 1960s. The issue is serious. It was particularly serious because it appeared that the European Community regulations insisted that airports should conduct the kind of search that was causing real difficulty. I understand that there may have been some advancement on that front with regard to technology in relation to the searching of headgear. I am merely presenting this amendment to give the Minister an opportunity to give some reassurance.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I fully agree with the noble Lord that we all want to ensure that passengers are treated with respect and dignity at all points during their journey through the airport, irrespective of creed. I hope that I can reassure noble Lords by explaining that what this amendment is designed to achieve is already covered by the Bill.
Airports are required by European and domestic rules to undertake security checks on all passengers and it is the responsibility of airports to ensure that their customers are treated with respect and dignity. Clause 80 of the Bill inserts new Sections 21H and 21I into the Aviation Security Act 1982. New Section 21I requires the CAA to provide such aviation security advice and assistance to the persons listed in subsection (3) of that new section, including, for example, the,
“managers of aerodromes in the United Kingdom”,
as the CAA considers appropriate.
In giving such advice and assistance the CAA has to have regard to the purposes to which Part 2 of the Aviation Security Act 1982 applies—which, broadly, are the protection of civil aviation against acts of violence. Therefore, if the CAA considered it appropriate, having regard to the purposes to which Part 2 of the Aviation Security Act 1982 applies, it could provide advice and assistance about maintaining the dignity of passengers wearing religious clothing when subject to security checks. I know that some passengers may worry about security checks and feel uncomfortable at being subjected to security searches. That may be a problem more generally as well.
However, noble Lords will understand that such searches are essential if security is to be maintained in the face of a real and continuing threat from terrorist groups that seek to do us harm. In his opening comments the noble Lord recognised that problem.
Noble Lords will know, I am sure, that each passenger departing from a UK airport undergoes standard security processes irrespective of their age, gender or ethnic background. These checks ensure that they are not carrying articles prohibited from the security-restricted area or on to the aircraft.
Security staff are trained to recognise that some passengers may have particular concerns about being searched, particularly about searches of some religious clothing, for example those from the Sikh community who wear turbans. A problem emerged in April 2010 when new EU rules came into force on headgear searches which required a physical hand search to be carried out in relation to turbans. Physical contact with the turban causes hurt and offence to Sikhs. My right honourable friend the former Secretary of State for Transport acted swiftly and advised airports to continue with the method used prior to April 2010, which mainly involved hand-held metal detectors, while consideration was given to how best to resolve the concerns expressed by the Sikh community.
After intensive work, a pilot project was put together in a very short time and with the assistance of members of the Sikh community. At the 31 UK airports participating in the trial, through which approximately 93% of all passengers travel, security staff use explosive-trace detection equipment combined with hand-held metal detection equipment to screen the headgear of those passengers and staff that either activate the walk-through metal detector or are chosen at random for a security search.
The UK has submitted three reports on the trial to the European Commission and has made various presentations explaining our test methodology and trial results. This method of searching headgear will continue to be used at participating UK airports as a continuing EC-approved trial while the necessary changes to EC regulation are made.
Progress has been made, which I hope will reassure the noble Lord, and I expect that that progress will continue. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord, after raising this very important issue, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Davies of Oldham
“Risk-based aviation security regime
(1) The Secretary of State may direct the operators of airport areas to implement an outcomes-focused, risk-based aviation security regime to govern the exercise of their functions in relation to aviation security.
(2) When making directions under this section, the Secretary of State must by order set out the framework for the introduction of the outcomes-focused, risk-based aviation security regime.
(3) An order under this section must be approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.”
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 67. I started off with the terrible prejudice that I express whenever some Orwellian concept swings into view with initials that I have never put together before and I am not quite sure that I will remember what they are, let alone succeed in remembering the concept to which they relate. That I now understand outcomes-focused, risk-based security is largely due to the fact that the Minister was kind enough to organise a meeting with officials who have responsibility for the scheme. We found both their presentation and the answers to our questions helpful and reassuring. It was an inspired move on the part of the Minister to do that in circumstances where otherwise a plethora of amendments would have been tabled to express our anxieties.
However, the main anxiety still remains. This is a significant change in the way in which the security of our airports is to be organised and, as security is of surpassing importance, it is right that we should be reassured in every respect with regard to it. Our amendments reflect our concern that the Secretary of State is directly involved in the implementation of this scheme. We want the order to be approved by resolution of each House of Parliament because Parliament needs full understanding and reassurance about the nature of the new security regime which will operate at airports.
We are particularly concerned that we have time to make an assessment of the effectiveness of the regime. We are concerned that there should be safeguards in regard to this initiative because we cannot think of a responsibility of the industry that is greater than security. This is a very significant change. My noble friend Lord Rosser has already pressed the Minister, with some success, on the expertise that is available in the Department of Transport. That expertise is now to be transferred. We have some assurances on that process but we need assurances about the introduction of the whole scheme. Parliament will clearly need to be involved. I should be grateful for the Minister’s response to my comments.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I can assure the House that I have never detected any prejudice in the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham.
Your Lordships will recall that during a debate in Grand Committee on 4 July I offered noble Lords a briefing on the Government’s plans in this area. That briefing took place on 11 October, and I hope that noble Lords found it informative. It is much better to be briefed by the experts in the subject rather than to be briefed by the Minister whose duty it is to articulate the policy behind the subject and, most importantly, to accept collective responsibility for that policy. The Government’s priority at all times is to ensure high levels of aviation security in the UK. The proposed new approach is intended to give operators greater flexibility and responsibility to design security processes that deliver specified security outcomes, with greater emphasis placed on the needs of the passengers. It is consistency of outcome that is important, not consistency of process.
A similar approach has been taken in aviation safety regulation. Modernisation would be achieved by introducing the use of security management systems—SeMS—by industry and a regulatory regime that is more outcome-focused and risk-based, the so-called OFRB. SeMS is a systematic approach to managing security aimed at embedding security in the day-to-day activities of the organisation. Therefore, in the summer we started a pilot at London City Airport in which the operator will develop the SeMS approach and in so doing create an enhanced internal security culture. Once this and further pilots have been concluded and we are satisfied that the SeMS framework is sufficiently robust we shall look to roll it out generally across the industry. This will provide a sound basis for the design and development of the OFRB regime.
The proposed reforms represent a significant change in the approach to the regulation of aviation security both for the industry and the regulator. We have therefore decided to take an incremental approach to reform to ensure that the UK’s high level of aviation security is ensured at all times. This incremental approach also aligns well with the Government’s intention to embed in industry a culture of continuous improvement of the UK’s aviation security regime, as has been the case for aviation safety. Industry has expressed strong support for moving away from the current highly centralised and prescriptive regime, but recognises that the proposed reforms will take some time to develop and implement.
On 26 June, the DfT published its response to a consultation on reforming the regulatory regime for aviation security. Responses to the consultation brought out that the move to a full OFRB regime needs to be undertaken gradually. Industry will need time to adjust to the new oversight approach rather than the current direct-and-inspect method of regulation. Many organisations have commented that the full benefits of OFRB, in particular flexibility for operators in the design of security processes, require changes to the highly prescriptive European legislation which specifies the common basic standards for aviation security. We will be using the SeMS pilots to build the evidence base necessary to engage with our European partners and to make the case for change.
Accordingly, the move to OFRB will not be a single big change but a continuing one. This is also necessary as there are some 1,000 industry entities in the UK that are directed to implement aviation security measures, and it would not be feasible, or sensible, for them all to move to OFRB at once. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Davies, that Parliament needs to be clear about what is happening. I can assure your Lordships that the Government will continue to keep Parliament informed as we develop, pilot and implement the new regime over the coming years. I hope that the House will support the aims of this reform and be assured that the Government are taking an evolutionary approach in order to ensure that the high levels of aviation security are maintained at all times. I am sure that that is what the House would want. With that comfort, I hope that the noble Lord will be able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I very much respect the Minister’s expression of caution on how the new scheme is to be rolled out. I quite understand that it will be done in a slow rollout, as the success of one section can be built on by the next. This matter is of great concern to Parliament, but I am not sure of the process by which Members will be able to appraise the issue. We all know the difficulties surrounding security matters—after all, security leads to some very significant institutions in the state, and we all appreciate that limited knowledge is made available. Parliament has to be reassured about this because the scheme is of such importance. Of course I shall withdraw the amendment but I warn the Minister that Ministers and the officials concerned will have their work cut out to present the issues in a way that enables parliamentarians to form an effective judgment on the success of the development. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, I strongly support the remarks of my noble friend Lady Mar. I admire the campaign that she has been running and will no doubt continue to run until it achieves success. In giving that support, I have questions for the Minister. In Committee, the Minister suggested that very little evidence had been brought to his eyes supporting the contentions that have been made in this matter. Will he tell the House how many representations that he has had since Committee stage? Will he accept that significant representations have been made and that those should be considered?
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, we began our deliberations today with the Minister making a response which greatly cheered the Opposition. I was going to return that sentiment by indicating how much I appreciated this government amendment. However, the Minister’s life, of course, never runs smooth. Questions have been addressed to him about the role of the CAA in an important area and he must address his mind to them.
Having accepted that he must tackle those issues in his reply, the Opposition very much welcome the government amendment. We had substantive discussions in Committee about these issues. The Minister said that he would take the issues away and come back with some proposal. This is an excellent proposal, which will guarantee that the efficiency of the CAA will be subject to scrutiny and—more than scrutiny—to prompting, whether it be from the Secretary of State, or the Secretary of State after prompting from Members of the Cross Benches in this House.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it may be helpful to the House if I respond to the noble Countess’s point about cabin air quality. First, I have full confidence in the advice that officials have given me, and everything that they have done has been in accordance with my intent. However, I agree that it was unfortunate that official letters from officials were not personally addressed to the addressees. I accept that point.
The noble Countess and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, will recognise that they have raised issues slightly wide of the amendment. However, I will write to them. I have already answered Questions for Written Answer on the health and safety issue, but I will gladly repeat that information in a letter to the noble Countess.