Olympic Games 2012: Traffic
Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts(11 years, 9 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, I suggest that that is an extremely unwise course of action. The policing of the Olympic lanes—the Games lanes—is similar to bus lanes. If the noble Lord thinks he can use a bus lane with impunity then he can try the Olympic lanes, but it is not something that I would recommend.
Lord Davies of Oldham
I find myself agreeing with the Minister that, of course, London has to offer a welcome to visitors from all over the world to these Games. The lanes are essential to the smooth running of the Games. Of course, there is already sufficient confusion and long tailbacks have been established on some routes and the lanes are not even in action yet. We must make every effort to make things clear to the public. Would the Minister strengthen the point that he made a moment ago that no privileged access to the ZiL lanes, apart from for Olympic officials, will be permitted and certainly not for Ministers of the Crown?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I can assure the House that Ministers of the Crown do not have any privileges in regard to the use of the Games lanes, with the exception of when advised to use them by the security services, and that will apply to very few Ministers indeed.
Civil Aviation Bill
Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Davies of Oldham
“Duty to promote innovation
In carrying out its functions, the CAA must, where possible and appropriate, have regard to the need to promote innovation in the civil aviation industry.”
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, this is a probing amendment with a proposed new clause because we could not think where else to put it in the Bill. It raises a very important topic, to which I hope the Minister will respond in his customary constructive fashion by assuring the Committee that the Government have thought through this issue and, in so far as the Bill can assist in tackling it, are already doing so—unless by some remarkable occurrence, and in the unlikely expectation, the Minister accepts my proposed new clause.
We have proposed this new clause in Amendment 69A in order to probe the Government and to have a debate about one of the most significant challenges facing the aviation industry in the future and the need for the CAA to play its part. It is clear that the whole concept of the Bill is to establish a new position for the CAA and to update the provisions governing it, but one of the great challenges for the aviation industry is obvious, and that is that the British Government have subscribed to very significant and challenging carbon targets for the years leading up to 2050. We believe that aviation emissions must be included in these targets. Aviation emissions are already subject to carbon caps as a result of being included in the EU emissions trading directive, but I want to broaden the debate to consider the obligations of the industry against the whole background of carbon emissions.
In order to reduce emissions in the industry and to serve the needs of businesses and members of the public who wish to fly it is clear that there needs to be innovation in the construction of aircraft, so that we can meet what we all appreciate is a very significant demand for air travel, which no Member of the Committee expects to reduce significantly in the future. We all know the hopes that are expressed about developments such as high-speed rail—that they will lead to a reduction in short-haul flying—but that may not do much more than mitigate the increase that is likely to occur as people, in due course, want to spend their income on travel.
As for the industry, even if high-speed rail plays a part in replacing short-haul flights, nothing can take the place of long and medium-range flights. Only aircraft can provide that kind of travel in the timescale needed. We are all aware that the vast majority of vessels that carry passengers do so without regard to time: they are predominately cruise ships used for leisure, so the time constraint is not so acute. It must be several decades since the last passenger went on a vessel over a long distance to conduct business, except for those exceptional people who will never fly. The way to get about over long distances, clearly, is by air and not by sea.
Of course, the aviation industry has a major future. Another great innovation which I am sure others will bring to the Minister’s attention, if I do not, is the increase in global communications, the sophistication of conference facilities and so on. It leads to the potential obviation of people having to travel for business if they can conduct it just as well through effective long-range communication. I have to say that I participated in one of the first such ventures, which consisted of a link between the United Kingdom, Japan and the United States. Whenever Japan could hear the United States it could not hear Britain; and whenever Britain could hear Japan it could not hear the United States. The United States did not succeed in hearing anybody. It was a difficult exercise but I am talking about several decades ago. We all know how sophisticated human communication can be now. One dimension of the financial anxieties that we all have is the extraordinary speed within which very complex, staggeringly high-value financial communications are effected in fractions of a second. But conferencing of that kind will always have its limitations and people will still need to travel for face-to-face meetings.
There is a challenge to the industry. If the demand is there and the industry is the only way of meeting that demand, it has to have severe targets to reduce carbon emissions, which must mean that new aircraft engine designs and fuels will play an increasingly important part. This might seem a long way from the CAA but it sits on the European Aviation Safety Agency and has a role to play in implementing UK policy on the performance of aircraft. I would not decry the innovations that are already being introduced. Thomsons Airways, for example, operated passenger flights using a B757 aircraft that was filled with a 50% blend of EASA-specification bio-derived jet fuel. It went from Birmingham to Lanzarotte in the Canary Isles and was satisfactory. The bio component was derived from waste cooking oil. Owing to differences in the manufacture and supply process of these fuels compared with normal refining production, care was required to ensure that the fuel delivered to the aircraft was traceable and fit for use. That was ensured in this trial. Further use of biofuel is planned by this airline as wider availability of bio-derived jet fuel permits. That flight was overseen by the CAA’s flight operations inspectorate.
Biofuels are only one option. There are also likely to be developments in the use of fuel cells and hybrid electric engines. The motorcar may have blazed an interesting trail—a reduced carbon trail, I hasten to add. The car industry has done that and aircraft engines may follow. On this important issue of the development of aircraft engines, I want the Minister to say that the Bill will ensure that the CAA will play its full role in innovation. We know the great emphasis that has been placed on quiet aircraft and are aware that heavier and bigger aircraft are quieter than lighter and smaller aircraft were in the past. This is an issue beyond quietness; it is about the whole future of the development of carbon emissions.
The CAA is also the economic regulator of NATS. It has already been proven that significant improvements can be made by air traffic control to increase the efficiency of the aviation sector. Innovations in technology can allow much more efficient flight paths to be taken and other improvements such as continuous rather than stepped descents. If we can use our airspace more intelligently through technological developments so that aircraft have continuous descent approaches, therefore using a much smoother glide path and much less fuel than with the traditional stepped approach, that will be of great benefit in reducing aircraft emissions. NATS has its role to play as well.
The Minister was kind enough, before we began the Bill, to give us the opportunity to meet several informed individuals, specialists, to tell us what possibilities exist in the area. I just want the Minister to confirm that the Bill guarantees that the CAA and NATS can play their full part in technological improvements so that we can still meet the demand for aviation and ensure that the industry has a thriving future while meeting the necessary carbon targets which the Minister has embraced. I beg to move.
Lord Rotherwick
I am rather seduced by the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Davies, which produces a duty to promote innovation. I very much welcome the brief from the director of airspace policy, Mark Swan, on innovation, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, on continuous climb, and so on. Of course, that falls far short of innovation in general and business aviation. You have only to compare the UK to the US to see that we are lagging far behind. We are only a small aviation sector in general and business aviation compared to America and we need a champion to push such things.
For example, we have very few global positioning satellite approaches. They rely on a satellite, not ground-based, last century technical devices that cost a lot to administer. The answer that we are given at the moment is that it is up to the airports to ask for them, but the truth is that it is very expensive to implement. America has a GPS approach for every airport. They are wonderful. You can have dog legs on them, which means that you can fly around communities, lowering the noise, and do all sorts of things. You can have an instrument approach from both ends of your airport, not just the published plate for an NDB on one end.
More than that, the technology is now available to have WAAS approaches—wide area augmentation systems. These are ground-based devices—I believe that there are two or three in America—that up the accuracy of the GPS signal and allow the approach to be made to the accuracy that we are used to with an ILS—an instrument landing system. Again, it does away with expensive ground-based technology. They are very important. Imagine when you fly into a third world country and rely on maintenance by that country of its instrument landing systems, you are sitting in your seat wondering whether that third world country can carry that out. There is no worry if you are using a satellite-based system run by the US.
I am seduced by the duty to promote innovation but at the same time, if this is implemented or written into the Bill, it should come with a caution: “with due regard to the cost to general and business aviation”. The example is the mode S transponder that was brought in recently, for which the lower end of the industry had great difficulty grasping the need. I believe that it was necessary; there were good examples like being able to fly abroad or into certain air spaces. The industry is now beginning to grasp that and take it on. The transponder was needed but was badly sold to the industry, and it cost each and every plane owner quite a lot of money to implement the new equipment. Once again, I thank the noble Lord for his amendment; I think it is a good one.
Lord Davies of Oldham
There is no appropriate time like the present, so I will withdraw the amendment after I have given a few words of thanks, first, to those Members of the Committee who support the clear need for innovation. I also think that we needed reassurance from the Minister that the Bill provides sufficient powers and incentives to ensure that the limited part that the CAA can play in its role with regard to the industry is played as fully as possible against the very challenging objectives that we all need to meet through change, particularly those in aircraft engine design. However, I was extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, for indicating that there are other aspects of technology that could be of great significance to the industry, to which the Minister also paid due regard.
I accept entirely what my noble friend Lord Soley said about government incentives for the development of new technologies in motor cars, and the licence system is a very effective weapon in those terms. But, as I understand it, neither the vehicles that airports use for towing things around nor their emissions are in any way subject to licence. Therefore, no incentive can be placed on the industry as regards those traction engines for a fresh, new design through the way in which they are licensed. I hope that the Minister has taken on board that we need some imaginative strategies. In fact, he has taken it on board because he is going to tell me about it.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord has suggested that ground vehicles at airports are not subject to regulations. I expect that I will be writing to him to point out that even non-road vehicles have limits on their emissions. There are complex and quite tough regulations to ensure that any ground vehicle reduces its emissions as much as possible. Even a vehicle that is not an on-road vehicle is still subject to regulations on emissions. I think that my letter will go into that.
Lord Davies of Oldham
I am grateful for that reassurance but it raises an obvious question. Some airports have taken this issue very seriously already but others have not. I therefore ask the Minister not to tell me how these machines can be improved but rather what is the incentive, compulsion or challenge given to those airports which are not improving to ensure that they do so in the future. That is the nub of this issue with regard to emissions on the ground and at airports.
Without any doubt, the biggest challenge is to the aircraft manufacturing industry. As the Minister indicated in his response, we are not negligible players in these terms and already have had one or two interesting innovations in which we have shown ourselves to be world beating. With this amendment, I was merely seeking to get reassurance from the Minister that he took these issues seriously and that the Bill empowers people sufficiently to give their spur to this development in any way that they can, while always bearing in mind the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, that all new technology is more expensive than that which it replaces if it is going to do a more challenging job unless we have real breakthroughs in terms of design, which from time to time in certain areas occur. In the past, the aviation industry has not failed us in that respect, but the challenges ahead are obviously very intensive. With the Minister’s largely constructive reply, I am happy to withdraw the amendment, as this is a timely moment to do so.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I have a good deal of sympathy for the amendment of my noble friend Lord Rotherwick. Might the Minister be a little clearer on what the process will be for the fixed penalty notices? I am ashamed to tell your Lordships that I am a veteran of the fixed penalty notice system as applied by Transport for London in relation to the congestion charge. I have on a couple of occasions had to appeal against an alleged violation only for my appeals to be dismissed instantly—no doubt, rightly. I discovered that if you insist on appealing and taking your lawyer with you to the tribunal in relation to your Transport for London penalty notice for alleged non-payment of the congestion charge, you are 90% likely to get off, but if you do not take your lawyer with you, you are not. It struck me as a rather shocking revelation. I do not suggest that there is anything wrong in the process, but amateurs who go on their own to appeal or simply send in a letter of appeal to Transport for London are likely to be dismissed out of hand. However, if you turn up on the day with your lawyer, you are likely to have your appeal allowed. I hope that there will be no such vagaries in the system to be employed by the Civil Aviation Authority. Who will hear appeals from fixed penalty notices issued by the Civil Aviation Authority? What will be the expertise of those who hear them? Can I be assured that the system will be a lot better than Transport for London’s?
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I have only one brief comment to make, one which I never thought I would make in Parliament or elsewhere. Oh the joys of Opposition for the Minister to reply.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, before turning to the detail of the points made, I must emphasise the importance of the clause that the amendment would alter. My noble friend Lord Trefgarne mentioned the congestion charge. I have been caught by it but I never dared to appeal. I just paid up. That might be because I knew that I was wrong.
The noble Lord talked about the higher success rate if you bring your lawyer. It may be that the appellant brings his lawyer because he is certain that he is right, so not surprisingly he wins his case. The noble Lord also asked about the appeal process. If someone who has been issued a fixed penalty notice is unhappy about that, he can take it to court in exactly the same way as a motorist can take a matter to court—like the McCaffrey case.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I shall contribute briefly because I cannot do justice to this issue. However, I hope that the Minister will do so. I pay tribute to the enormous work of the noble Countess, Lady Mar, in this area. I had the privilege of knowing Nancy Tait who happened to be a constituent when I represented Enfield and first came into the House. For a number of years her concerns about asbestosis were brushed aside on the grounds that the evidence did not match the allegations being made and anxieties being expressed. Everyone else knew that huge potential costs were involved if asbestos had to be stripped out of buildings that were already constructed, to say nothing about not being used again for building. She was right and the doubts of the authorities were eventually overcome. The evidence was produced and we are all healthier because of that, not least our schoolchildren because one of the great uses of asbestos was in schools.
I do not know whether this issue is as significant as that but when the noble Countess, Lady Mar, came to see me when I had responsibility for the department in this House a few years ago, I asked for all the investigations and evidence that the department could make on these issues. I know that a significant amount of work was done. The one thing that I was not prepared to do was to stand before the House on behalf of the Government and reject the noble Countess’s amendments without an assurance that we had explored every dimension.
There was an element in that about which I have not heard any more. I wonder whether the noble Countess can enlighten the Committee. One of the issues was that the airline pilots, through BALPA, did not regard themselves as being excessively threatened by this problem. We all know that they have to protect their livelihoods and they have a vested interest, but equally no one goes to work thinking that they may be engaging in something that will seriously affect their health in the future or even make them dangerous if they fall ill while they are working. That was an important dimension. I do not know whether BALPA’s attitude has changed. There has been no reference to it but it would be germane to the debate.
The Countess of Mar
I think that the noble Lord might agree that being an airline pilot is quite a macho job and you do not admit that you are feeling ill until you have to. We have two pilots here. Some of the people with whom I have contact are ex-BALPA pilots and are now seriously ill—some very seriously ill. While they were members of BALPA and working they did not complain. I mentioned at Second Reading the fear that they have of reporting because of losing their jobs.
Lord Davies of Oldham
We all understand that point. The noble Countess referred to macho jobs. There are lots of tasks that are extremely dangerous and people are prepared to take them on, but a risk to their health of what is involved is a long-running dimension that this manifestation represents.
My point is obvious enough: I was assured several years ago that there was not sufficient substance in the position as established at that stage for action to be taken. The action, of course, will be dramatic. Reference has been made to the fact that the Dreamliner does not use this air system. The Dreamliner is rather an expensive aircraft to produce, as we all know, and it is in open competition with the A380, which uses the old system. We are talking about massive resources being involved. There is no easy switch. If anyone had thought at any stage that everyone’s health could have been safeguarded just with an easy technological change, that would have been done, but we are talking about something so much bigger.
Lord Empey
Does the noble Lord accept that maintenance is an issue here? The 146’s oil seals were partly responsible when they corroded, largely due to the chemicals to which they were exposed. Maintenance may not be the solution but it is certainly an issue.
Lord Davies of Oldham
It certainly is; the 146 illustrated that in graphic terms and that is why changes were made. I hope that the Minister is able today to build on experience. After all, the issue has been before the department, thanks to the work of the noble Countess, over a number of years now. I hope that he is able to give the Committee reassurances about this question of health and how it is being monitored. I do not have the slightest doubt that if we are wrong, we would all feel dreadfully culpable because significant warning signals have been sent out, and that is why the issue has to be treated with the utmost seriousness.
Lord Wigley
Does the noble Lord agree that the first step must be to get authoritative independent evidence, facts and figures on which to base decisions, and that that needs to be looked at rigorously? That is something we could all support because out of that we can then reach reasonable conclusions.
Lord Davies of Oldham
Of course. That is a major exercise and a costly one, and would have to be done with the greatest thoroughness. The department and indeed the Government would have to be convinced that the anxieties were such that they could be allayed only by that approach. It is for the Minister to indicate to us whether he thinks that we are at that stage now; we certainly were not a few years ago.
The Countess of Mar
I have no intention of expecting the airline industry to scrap all its planes immediately and replace them with the Dreamliner. I recognise that that would be hugely expensive. It is just the same story as with asbestos and, in a more minor way, with sheep dip, although the latter problem has been resolved. I am concerned that people are not reporting ill health because they are frightened—frightened of losing their jobs, in one case, or of retribution. If the CAA had the power to enforce COSHH, doing so would make the airline owners maintain their aeroplanes properly— I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, for his intervention there—and take notice when there was a complaint. Until we know how many complaints there are, we are not going to be able to solve the problem.
Lord Davies of Oldham
I hear what the noble Countess says, and I heard that case deployed at the time when we met previously on this issue. Overall, though, my experience is that, whatever risks to livelihood, people have the greatest concern about threats to their long-term health and it is therefore not the case that they conceal these issues. The issue with the asbestos problem was not that people were concealing the impact; what was not being substantiated sufficiently was cause and effect, which is exactly the issue here.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. On the first amendment tabled by the noble Countess, airline pilots and crew members are already protected in this area by Part IVA of the Employment Rights Act 1996, which was inserted by Sections 1 to 2 of the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998, both as workers who can make a protected disclosure to their employer and as individuals who can make one to the CAA. The CAA is a prescribed person for the purposes of that Act, which means that it can receive “protected disclosures” or whistleblowing from the civil aviation industry.
As for awareness of these rights, the CAA has a published statement on its website in relation to its whistleblowing policy which makes it clear that it will investigate all complaints in an appropriate manner, endeavouring to maintain confidentiality at all times.
I add for the sake of completeness that, as well as the protection afforded by the Act, the CAA has long established processes in place for incident-reporting and to safeguard confidentiality. The chief of these is the mandatory occurrence reporting scheme established in 1976. Consequently, the noble Countess’s amendment refers to protections already in place and is unnecessary.
The second amendment proposed by the noble Countess is also unnecessary. However, it also has an important and possibly unintended consequence which makes it unacceptable. The amendment would substitute the existing provision in Section 60 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982 with the wording that it proposes. This would be a backward step because it would cause the removal of the power which enables an Air Navigation Order to contain provisions,
“for safeguarding the health of persons on board aircraft”.
That power has already been used.
The duty on the Secretary of State of,
“organising, carrying out and encouraging measures for safeguarding the health of persons on board aircraft”,
now in Section 1(1A) of the 1982 Act, as inserted by Section 8(2) of the Civil Aviation Act 2006, was a widely welcomed reform. The existing Section 60 power is part of delivering that general duty. We do not want to lose that. I suspect that the noble Countess does not want to lose that either, but the effect, perhaps unintentional, of this amendment would be to remove the relevant subsection of Section 60. That is why I regard it as a backward step and why it is opposed by the Government.
There is also a second objection to this amendment. The matters listed in it are a mixture of UK legislation, European legislation and European Aviation Safety Agency technical specifications. They are already enforced by the appropriate regulators in relation to the protections that they give, including safety, technical integrity of aircraft and working conditions for those in the aviation industry.
The principal enforcement agencies are the Civil Aviation Authority and the Health and Safety Executive, and there is a memorandum of understanding, referred to by the noble Countess, between these two bodies setting out their respective responsibilities for enforcing occupational health and safety in relation to public transport aircraft while on the ground and in the air. It was drawn up by the two organisations with the aim of avoiding duplication of effort in the areas of overlapping mutual interest. There is therefore no need specifically to provide for the enforcement of these in an ANO.
The noble Countess suggested that the CAA was complacent. This is far from being the case. Successive UK Governments have investigated the matter thoroughly. The UK has an excellent safety record in aviation which we would not wish to lose by being complacent. Allegations of ill-health caused by cabin air have not been upheld by research. The main research study, published by Cranfield University in May last year, found no evidence of pollutants occurring in cabin air at levels exceeding available health and safety standards and guidelines.
However, I am well aware that the noble Countess has very strong views about the standards and guidelines. Levels observed in the flights that formed part of the study were comparable to those typically experienced in domestic settings. The department has now formally referred the published research studies to the Committee on Toxicity, the independent adviser to the Government on matters concerning the toxicity of chemicals, for it to consider the matter.
Civil Aviation Bill
Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Davies of Oldham
“( ) The CAA may also provide advice and assistance to such persons in connection with security checks performed on users of civil air services who have religious clothing requirements in order that their dignity be maintained without compromising the rigour of those security checks.”
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, the amendment is a minor part of the security issues that we are concerned about in our airports. In later amendments, we will have the opportunity to discuss the more substantial issues, but this issue is substantial to part of our community—the Sikhs—who could undergo considerable humiliation and total affront to their religious position by the action of those carrying out security.
As a nation, we are more appreciative of this issue than may be the case in many other parts of Europe, not least because we have a substantial Sikh population, but we also have a relationship with Sikhs that goes back over several centuries through the former British Empire in India. The issue raised by security is that Sikhs are not prepared to have their turban touched or in any way interfered with, because the turbaned hair is a fundamental point of observance in their religion. Obvious security difficulties attend that. After all, turbans can be very substantial headgear. Sikhs do not cut their hair and their turbans enclose substantial swathes of hair. As we know, many Sikhs are somewhat above average size in any case, so it is a substantial piece of clothing.
Under regulations that obtain under the European Community, security officers have the right to insist on scrutinising the head-dress, which means at the very least touching it and, in more obvious cases, asking for it to be unwound entirely. Some cases have caused enormous concern in the Sikh population. There was one case in Italy in which the security officer insisted on the removal of the head-dress. There was even the case of the coach to the internationally renowned golfer, Milkha Singh, who has achieved great prominence in golfing circles. The coach was subject to this challenge of the turban being touched.
We therefore cannot look at the conduct contained and outlined in European regulations as anything other than a straight affront to the Sikh population. The Indian Government watch this kind of situation with the greatest care. An Indian Minister went so far as to say that any insult to a Sikh, particularly on religious grounds, was an insult to the whole of India. Of course, he was reflecting the fact that India prides itself on its extraordinary tolerance and its capacity to operate a political system and create a society in which widely different religious groups are highly represented. One of the more obvious facts is that there are two million Muslims in India out of a population that is overwhelmingly Hindu.
We must therefore look at this issue in an international context, too. At British airports, the authorities deal with this issue—bearing in mind that they have every regard to security—by using swab tests. Beyond that, we know that there has been no development on the explosive trace detection which our airports are trialling. Swab tests are not totally satisfactory or convincingly effective, and the explosive trace detection is still a trial and not proven as yet. British citizens travelling to Europe, and Europe as a whole, are still subject to the regulations that were introduced a couple of years ago.
No Member of Parliament with a Sikh population could be anything but greatly exercised by the fact that there might be an incident at a British airport that provoked the repercussions that I have outlined and which have occurred in the past. There is a further implication that an incident might damage community relations and cause great concern among the whole of the Sikh population in the UK. There is not the slightest doubt that this is a very significant issue. The Committee will remember that this issue cropped up a number of years ago, in the 1960s, with the introduction of compulsory helmet wearing for motor cyclists. I cannot now recollect the years in which we had the debates in both Houses of Parliament, but we were able to deal with it, after considerable debate, in a sensitive manner.
I ask the Minister not to underestimate the significance of this issue. I hope he will feel that the amendment is expressed in constructive terms so that the CAA will be empowered to take effective action in this area. It may also be a clear indication of the sensitivity of the CAA and British Airports to other circumstances that we have to have great regard to because they mean so much to certain groups in our country and, of course, to whole populations elsewhere in the world. I beg to move.
Lord Rotherwick
My Lords, I rise with a little concern because I do not want to give any religious affront to anyone. However, maybe we should put this into the context of the rest of the population. It is concerning that the risk of something occurring that was an affront to one person’s religious rights might be put before the safety of a planeload of people. I remind the Minister that at certain times the rest of the population have to undergo strip searches. I unfortunately have rather a lot of prosthetic material inside me, and I am patted down from head to toe every time I go through passport control. That is an affront to my person, but I accept it as a necessity for the safety of other people.
As the noble Lord, Lord Davies, said, we looked at the Sikh population’s concerns about motorcycles and a solution was found, but motorcycle safety issues relate mainly to the driver of the motorcycle. The safety concerns here are about the whole aircraft and the passengers in it. To repeat myself, I do not wish to cause affront to any religious person, but in this context we all have to undergo certain unpleasant procedures, and unfortunately everyone has to suffer in the same way.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am sure that the Commission is in a listening mode, because otherwise it could be storing up problems for itself in future.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that response, which was encouraging. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, will recognise that, given the advanced years of many of us, we have great difficulty going through airport security without the implied suggestion that we have a submachine gun in our belt. When our belt has been taken off, the gun must be somewhere else. Having had a hip replacement a few years ago, I go through agonies at airport control. We all have to pay that price. I do not think that any of us doubt that airport security is of the greatest significance, and we all realise that some privations are attendant on it. However, some practices need to be looked at very carefully.
The Minister is assiduous in writing to us when he feels that he has not made a point absolutely explicit in a reply. I do not think that he needs to write to us on the question asked by my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis. Privacy will not solve the problem. The issue is not that something is being done in public; it is that someone is touching the turban. Therefore, if the same security process is followed in private as in public, the offence will be exactly the same.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I absolutely accept the point about touching the turban, but there may be some other perfectly reasonable reason why a passenger does not want to be searched in public. They may want to explain a medical condition, for instance, that it would be too embarrassing to discuss in public, but as soon as they went into a private room they would be able to explain the circumstances and have a thorough search.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, of course I know that the practice occurs; it is essential where people have enormous sensitivities that ought to be respected. However, the amendment is about Sikhs. I am merely indicating that for a Sikh, an offence conducted in private is no less an offence than if it were done in the public arena. Therefore, the issue is how we maintain our security and check the Sikh population effectively when they travel, without giving extreme offence by touching the turban.
I am grateful that the Minister indicated that we are making progress on tests that will obviate the need to touch the turban, so I hope that the problem will soon be resolved. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Davies of Oldham
“Risk-based aviation security regime
(1) The Secretary of State may direct the operators of airport areas to implement an outcomes-focused, risk-based aviation security regime to govern the exercise of their functions in relation to aviation security.
(2) When making directions under this section, the Secretary of State must by order set out the framework for the introduction of the outcomes-focused, risk-based aviation security regime.
(3) An order under this section must be approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.”
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I shall also speak to Amendment 75, which is linked with this amendment. We have begun our discussions on the outcomes-focused, risk-based scheme, and I hope that, during the Minister’s reply to this amendment, he will be kind enough to explain sufficiently what this term implies to satisfy the Committee and ensure that all Members are fully aware of what is envisaged. As my noble friend indicated when speaking to the previous amendment, we are not entirely satisfied about replacing what after all has borne the test of time in airport security in this country, with one or two obviously notable exceptions. We are not clear about the principles behind the scheme and we would be grateful if the Minister would elaborate on them.
Our concerns are born of the fact that this concept was added to the Bill quite late. It occasioned anxieties in the Transport Committee of the other place because the concept had not been subject to any serious pre-legislative scrutiny. Moreover, as others have said, it has been somewhat sprung on the industry, which I know is mixed in its response. I think the Minister will be pressed to say whether there is tremendous enthusiasm for this development, although he may be able to point to the progress that is being made. Suffice it to say that there did not appear to be a great deal of consultation about the scheme before it appeared in the Bill.
The scheme has one conspicuous merit for the Government; as the noble Lord neatly put it, it transfers the costs to the user. That is an interesting concept; an airline is using security and should bear the costs. What the industry might be doing is picking up the costs that are transferred from the department and therefore helping the department’s budget in the wake of the Chancellor’s cuts, detailed last year. The absence of consultation, the fact that the concept was added late and the fact that it needs considerable elaboration and definition are all points to which I am sure the Minister will set his mind.
Earl Attlee
I welcome these amendments, which enable us to consider an outcomes-focused, risk-based regime. I hope in responding to them to be able to allay the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham. However, I am not convinced that the amendment is related to the previous one, which concerned the important matter of DfT staff being looked after on transfer. They are separate issues.
The DfT has consulted on proposals to modernise the regulatory regime for aviation security. They are designed to promote innovation and efficiency, to ensure the best possible passenger experience and to bring the regime into line with better-regulation principles. The Government’s priority at all times is to ensure high levels of aviation security in the UK. We simply cannot afford a failure.
The proposed new approach is intended to give operators greater flexibility and responsibility to design security processes that deliver specified security outcomes, with greater emphasis placed on the needs of their passengers. A similar approach has been taken in aviation safety regulation.
Modernisation would be achieved by introducing the use of security management systems, or SeMS, by industry and a regulatory regime that is more outcomes-focused and risk-based—the so-called OFRB. SeMS is a systematic approach to managing and embedding security in the day-to-day activities of an organisation. We are starting with a series of pilots in which industry operators will develop the SeMS approach and, in so doing, create an enhanced internal security culture. Once these pilots have been concluded and we are satisfied that the SeMS framework is sufficiently robust, we shall look to roll it out generally across the industry. This will provide a sound basis for the design and development of the OFRB regime.
The proposed reforms represent a significant change in the approach to the regulation of aviation security both for the industry and the regulator. We have therefore decided to take an incremental approach to reform to ensure that the UK’s high level of aviation security is maintained at all times. This incremental approach also aligns well with the Government’s intention to embed in industry a culture of continuous improvement of the UK’s aviation security regime, as has been the case for aviation safety.
Many organisations have commented that the full benefits of OFRB—in particular, flexibility for operators in the design of security processes—require changes to the highly prescriptive European legislation, which specifies common basic standards for aviation security. We will use the SeMS pilots to build the evidence base necessary to engage with our European partners and to make the case for change. This will take some time.
I say in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, that the move to OFRB will not be a single big change but a continuing one—it will not be sprung on stakeholders. This is also necessary because some 1,000 industry entities in the UK are directed to implement aviation security measures, and it would not be feasible or sensible for them all to move to OFRB at once.
The Secretary of State intends to take forward the reformed approach to aviation security regulation under powers in Part 2 of the Aviation Security Act 1982 by giving directions to industry operators, such as airports. In passing Part 2 of the 1982 Act, Parliament has granted the Secretary of State a power to give directions to industry for the purpose of protecting civil aviation against acts of violence. Successive Transport Secretaries, irrespective of party, have made aviation security directions that they consider necessary to protect the security of civil aviation. The Secretary of State’s direction-making powers set out in Part 2 of the 1982 Act do not require the approval of Parliament before they can come into force.
Introducing a new layer of legislative approval for the introduction of an OFRB aviation security regime could risk damaging our ability to respond swiftly to implement necessary changes to aviation security in the face of continuing and evolving threats. These amendments would mean that if the response to a new threat affected the framework of the outcomes-focused, risk-based regime, an order would be required that would be subject to the approval of both Houses. This would inevitably take time, even with the most efficient business managers in charge of Parliament’s agenda. Your Lordships will know that it is sometimes necessary to make changes very quickly to respond to new threats, in some cases within a matter of hours.
For example, swift action, including an immediate ban on liquids, had to be taken in response to the liquid bomb plot. The plot was uncovered during the Summer Recess, and if it had been necessary to recall Parliament and have these matters debated by both Houses, it would have been impossible to respond effectively. I am sure that your Lordships will recall the printer bomb plot in October 2010, when it was necessary to place emergency restrictions on air cargo. If my right honourable friend the former Secretary of State had not been able to act quickly to ban certain consignments, we could have been left exposed to similar attacks.
Noble Lords will have seen the Written Ministerial Statement made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State on the 26 June about the reform of the aviation security regulatory regime and the Government’s response to the preceding consultation. I can assure your Lordships that the Government will continue to keep Parliament informed as we develop, pilot and implement the new regime over the coming years. However, I hope the Committee will agree that Amendments 54 and 75 would not only be impractical but could have a damaging impact on our ability to keep passengers secure. Therefore, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw or not to move the amendments.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I have a bone of contention with the Minister. I am not prepared to accept what he said about the new measures necessary to deal with the threat of the liquid bombs. Clearly effective action was taken and we all know the constraints. I can even remember the size of the cardboard box that Heathrow kindly provided for me to ensure that the baggage that I was taking to the cabin could be measured accurately. It was the least precise device that I have ever seen. Nevertheless, you cannot expect technology to appear at every point in an airport. I am not prepared to have that emergency response to a clearly individual, defined threat compared with a whole schematic change to the concept of airport security.
After all, it is the Minister who is dressing up the scheme in excellent technical language. It is he who has to take responsibility for the fact that the scheme arrived on the scene somewhat late and was not subject to scrutiny before it appeared in the legislation. It is the Minister who has to bear the responsibility for the fact that the most apparent thing to the industry about the scheme was that the costs were being transferred. We all know the driver for that, so he will not mind if there is an element of suspicion in the Committee that the issue that drives the scheme is the transfer of costs rather than the more successful implementation of a security regime.
Earl Attlee
I would not want to leave the noble Lord upset. However, first, I remind the Committee that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State retains responsibility for aviation security. None of this changes that. In addition, I would like to remind the Committee of one thing. If we were to adopt the noble Lord’s amendment, it could have unintended consequences. We might think that it would be fine; but when we wanted to change something quickly, we would come up against that most ancient law, the law of unintended consequences. We need to be extremely cautious, therefore, before we think about tying the hands of the Secretary of State and removing that flexibility that she has to give the necessary directions in respect of aviation security.
Lord Davies of Oldham
I would be the last person to want to see a reduction in the Secretary of State’s powers in this very important area, and I am not suggesting that Parliament will set out to destroy the security scheme for the aviation industry. Responsible Members of Parliament would do no such thing, of course. What we are looking for is a clearer evaluation than that presently to hand of the merits of this approach, apart from cost savings for the department. The industry will accept this grudgingly, because the costs are put upon it. It may be entirely proper that it should bear the cost. However, one would have thought that this would be presented to the industry with greater consultation than it has had.
As for Parliament, it is clear that we are all taking a great deal from the Minister on faith. I have no doubt that the concept is excellent, if it is ever clearly explained to me. However, the Minister has not taken the opportunity on this occasion to explain its merits over what we have at the present time. If he had said, “Of course, I can’t do that, because that would imply that I am giving some comparative analysis that would give information to hostile elements”, I would probably have taken that in my stride, but he did not say that.
Earl Attlee
Certainly not—that would be a weak argument. I can suggest, however, that if the noble Lord would like, I can organise a briefing between him and the officials who are handling this issue. We can go into it in greater detail and ensure that both of us are happy about it.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, the Minister is generous with letters that whizz round after Committee proceedings, and he is always generous in his replies, although they do not always meet the exact points. I am probably obliged to take him up on his offer of what will be an enormously illuminating occasion. However, I am not clear whether it will be of any use to other Members of the Committee, or to other Members of either House of Parliament, to know that the opposition spokesman will be a bit wiser in a few days than he is at present. The noble Lord might think that that suffices, but I do not. However, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Davies of Oldham
“( ) greenhouse gas emissions resulting from both domestic flights and flights to European Union Member States, with greenhouse gas emissions for an equivalent journey via rail or coach.”
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I will also speak to Amendments 57 and 60 in this group. The amendments seek to enhance the principle that the Minister accepted in earlier discussions in Committee of the advantages of the openness and transparency of the CAA, and the fact that because it is in a position to garner critical information the nation would benefit significantly if that information were distributed widely.
The first amendment in the group asks the CAA to publish information comparing greenhouse gas emissions resulting from domestic and EU flights with equivalent journeys by other transport means. The public are becoming increasingly aware of their climate change obligations. As the Minister knows, a whole range of activities by other departments makes it incumbent on them or their agencies accurately to identify to the nation the nature of greenhouse gas emissions. The issue runs across government policy. It is one to which the Government in principle subscribe, and we are proud of the fact that we initiated it in government some years ago.
The most obvious issue for people when it comes to transport modes is price. It may be that the very wealthy never bother about relative prices, but I assure the noble Lord that, particularly in these days of economic stringency, large numbers of our fellow citizens look at price first when they travel. That is why low-cost airlines have done so well in recent years. It is also why long-distance coach travel has expanded. Another increasingly important consideration is the cost of their travel in terms of the increased damage to the environment. This information may not be acted on by huge numbers of people in the first years that it is given, but we know that a substantial proportion of the population is clamouring for the information at present. We also know that as anxieties about climate change increase, the public’s need for information to make them fully aware of greenhouse gas emissions will be of surpassing importance. The first amendment therefore relates to information that is not massively difficult for the Government to collect and distribute. We think that it would be very useful to people when choosing travel modes.
Amendment 57 relates to an issue that we have already debated. There is no doubt that people first choose their flight and airline. However, airports differ substantially in how easy it is to park a car, how passengers are processed, and the facilities available, and these issues count for a great deal more than when mass flying first came along. People then were grateful just for the fact that the aircraft was parked in the right place and that they had arrived at the right airport to catch it. The Government have emphasised that they are eager to see competition between airports. Indeed, we have even discussed whether we will see the Government encouraging competition between terminals, an interesting proposition that we considered during our last session in Committee. This side was not entirely convinced about it. If there is going to be competition between airports, people will need to be able to make accurate judgments about the efficacy of airports and the services they offer.
Lord Soley
Does my noble friend agree that if we have competition for airports, we should also have it for train and coach stations? Should we have the same information made available about them?
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I would be a great enthusiast for that. Whatever anxieties people might have about airports, only a small percentage of the population travels by air on a daily basis, while a large number make journeys by train every day. The only thing I would say to my noble friend is that I am not at liberty to introduce rail into the Bill, so he will have to be patient until we can tackle the rail industry with the same forthright approach that has been brought to aviation.
The last amendment in the group relates to the question of air transport services and their impact on greenhouse gas emissions. We know that airports have made considerable strides in reducing their emissions. There was a time when one could well have formed the impression that the largest aircraft taxiing on a runway was unlikely to create as much emissions as the gear being used to tow it to its bay. Sundry vehicles could be seen sauntering around airports, many of them of somewhat archaic design and certainly capable of spouting noxious fumes. We know that airports have already addressed these issues, so why should we not have the information that allows us to appreciate those achievements and thus encourage them to do even better? I beg to move.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I thought that the Minister’s response did justice to an excellent debate, and I congratulate him on the constructive way in which he identified our concerns and the nation’s concerns about the issues and the way in which they need to be tackled. I will certainly bear in mind the fact that he considers that I have addressed the amendment to the wrong part of the Bill. That is easily corrected and I am therefore very grateful for the information.
My noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis is right about the question of information, but he must know that the premise behind economics and intelligent rational economic decision-taking is perfect information. We all know that perfect information is extremely difficult to get on almost any economic choice but what is clear is that the more information that is available to the individual, the more rational their choice can prove to be. That is the thinking behind the amendments and, as the Minister indicated, it is government thinking in crucial areas with regard to transport. We have no doubt that when it comes to emissions, transport has competitors, but it is one of the more significant areas of economic activity that present a threat to the environment. I was greatly encouraged by his response.
I was grateful, too, to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester for his endorsement of the amendments. His amendment, like mine, will suffer from not being in the right place or from not quite tuning with the Minister’s preferences, but he has occasioned an illustration of how the Government are tackling this matter. I hope that this also betokens an unremitting requirement upon aviation to be clear about its emissions and the strategy that it is adopting to reduce them.
In response to my noble friend Lord Soley, the reason why we put the other transport forms into the amendment is obvious enough: this is an aviation Bill but we thought that we would incur a calumny and be criticised for being desperately partial if we addressed ourselves to the demands upon aviation with no indication at all of our anxieties about other forms of transport—not least because there are areas such as high-speed rail and improved rail services that are directly competitive with air in a way that was not the case 20 to 25 years ago.
The great friend of mine, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, who is sadly no longer with us, enjoyed the privilege of being my predecessor as Captain of the Yeomen of the Guard. I always said that I could never fill his boots, and that was literally so because I could not get them on. He had many extraordinary attributes but there was one in particular that I always admired: on the final afternoon before every Recess he would depart from this place, particularly in the summer, wearing the right kind of gear, and announce to everyone that he was catching the TGV to Avignon, where he had a home. I was always in complete envy of him for that journey, particularly because it was by train and would not have been possible a decade or so previously. There is no doubt that the TGV to Avignon is competitive with services from Paris to Avignon or to Marseilles by air. That is why we need a comparison, and not least a fair one, because we ought to be able to guarantee that the various transport modes are measured in ways that allow the consumer to make an accurate choice.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, the Minister is certainly correct in saying that the extension of the ATOL scheme contained in the Bill has won the support of both sides in the other House. We also indicated at Second Reading how much we approved of this extension of the ATOL scheme. We thoroughly endorse the main objective which the Minister is seeking to achieve and are delighted to see it in the Bill. I take it that the categories that are extended will receive the ATOL certificate in the same way as all others that are part of the scheme, so that consumers will know they are contained within the scheme under the new arrangements of Amendments 63A and 63B. I am making that assumption—if the Minister nods his assent, I am reassured on that front. That is excellent news.
On the other question, I understand the point that there is no attempt to greatly extend the boundary of the scheme while seeking to preserve protection in those specific cases. I hope that that boundary is easily maintained, because that is what is being put in the legislation. We all know that there are two categories of disappointed people. There are those who did not participate in the ATOL scheme and were never therefore covered, who are utterly dismayed when things go badly wrong. There is no event in one’s normal life much worse than a holiday going badly wrong. However, if anything, it is worse to think that you are covered when you are not. As long as there is clarity at the boundary about that, I am entirely satisfied with the amendments and am delighted to see them being proposed.
Earl Attlee
I thank the noble Lord for his support for my amendments. I beg to move.
Transport: Road Traffic
Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord makes an important point about what we can achieve with technology. It is particularly important for the Highways Agency to be able to measure where congestion is and then to use its variable message signs to advise motorists to seek another route. In addition, although satnav navigation systems are in their infancy, we are starting to get the full benefit from them.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, is the Minister aware that during this past year the Mayor of London has pursued a smoothing traffic flow priority, which prioritises motorists over safety? Is he further aware that pedestrian deaths are up by 33% during this period and cyclist deaths by more than 21%? I express the hope that, in answering this question, the Minister’s brief will be more secure than it was last week when he answered a question of mine on fares to and from the Scilly Isles.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am confident about the accuracy of this brief, but regret that during our discussions last Monday I stated that the return fare on the “Scillonian III” for Scilly Isles residents was £20.50. However, this is in fact the single fare and there may be other qualifications. I am very sorry about this, since it made my position appear stronger than it really was, to the detriment of the noble Lord’s.
The noble Lord asked me detailed questions about the management of traffic in London. He will appreciate that that is a matter for the mayor. It is disappointing that overall fatalities have increased slightly, the reasons for which we have not yet examined fully.
Civil Aviation Bill
Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, as the Committee will recognise, we are anxious about Clause 9 and the two succeeding clauses, which relate to the very issue that we discussed under the previous amendment. This gives us a chance to explore much more fully the kind of issues that were opened up by the probing amendment a few moments ago. It may be looked on as something of a blunderbuss to fire at the Minister at this stage, particularly when he was so generous in his response to a question that I asked earlier in the House today. However, the blunderbuss is there simply because, like the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, we are not quite sure what the implications of the Bill as it is drafted are. Therefore, we want as full and wide a debate as possible about an extremely important area.
The first question that the Minister needs to answer is: where is the demand for this provision of inter-terminal competition from the industry? All submissions that noble Lords will have received on this issue are, for a very good reason, critical of and hostile to the proposal that the Government have put forward. Airports require substantial investment. They need the confidence of investors in the resources that they intend to utilise. However, here there seems to be a proposal that the authority could promote competition between terminals when the whole structure of an airport’s finances is on the basis that such competition does not exist and, for very good reasons, ought not to exist. I shall elaborate on those reasons in a moment. However, what is more, the Bill says that if a decision is taken on this, it will be done through secondary legislation. We all know the limitations of secondary legislation in debating the fundamental principles of how an airport is to operate.
The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, referred to the one airport that most us know has inter-terminal competition at present, namely JFK International Airport. He was quite mild in his assessment of the position there. Many other people are pretty critical of just how expensive that airport is, its lack of efficiency and the competition between terminals. It has the features to which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin referred—a wide expanse of differentiation between terminals and a large number of them. However, that still does not mean that many of us, and much of informed opinion, cannot see the advantages that have been derived there from such competition. Representations from the industry show that it is extremely critical of this proposal. The Minister used the phrase “future-proofing” as the reason for this potential development, but the trouble with that is that it might cause disruption, consternation and anxiety here and now against a most uncertain future. When airports have made their representations on this issue, they have been pretty forthright about the disadvantages.
First, they foresee the potential for a substantial increase in operating costs because the economies of scale that airports are able to realise in their present arrangements through their ability to optimise capacity across all their terminals will be lost. That would be a substantial disadvantage to passengers. Secondly, inter-terminal competition is conceivable only where there is significant spare capacity. If one target for this is London Heathrow, “spare capacity” is just about the most inapplicable concept one could think of. The Minister should tell us where he thinks there is a large airport with more than one terminal that has sufficient spare capacity to be able to adapt to this situation. Where there is any spare capacity, the airport operator has an element of freedom to deal with the exigencies of particular situations. The Minister will have to explain the rationale behind Clause 9.
Moreover, the Minister will be all too well aware that airlines have very different needs. The reason an airport has different arrangements in its terminals is because it seeks to cater for the range of different needs of the various airlines. It will want to be in a competitive position so as to attract airlines through these differences. It is clear that no-frills operators have different needs from those who operate a full service on long-haul scheduled carriers. A single operator can accommodate these differences. I shall give one example. One of the terminals at Manchester airport is set up for holiday traffic. Because of the nature of the arrivals and departures of those flights, Manchester has made specific provision in the terminal to cope with it.
It must be recognised, of course, that difficulties can arise when airlines move. They have the freedom to do so and they exploit it to move to different airports. Gatwick made representations to the Committee and the Government indicating that when Delta, a large airline, quit Gatwick, that had a significant effect on its traffic and accordingly it had to make considerable changes. To adapt terminals to accommodate all sorts of traffic would be expensive. It would run counter to the investment that has already been made in our major airports.
There are other anxieties about the Government’s proposals. Obviously, when planning is carried out for airport development, it will not be easy to put forward proposals which envisage the possibility of a substantial section of the airport—one of its terminals—being sold off and therefore being subject to a different strategy from that in which people have invested. It also affects the airport in dealing with its suppliers. Airports can strike deals with significant suppliers of the very large amount of commerce which is transacted within them. Under the proposal which is envisaged here, these arrangements could be severely disrupted. One terminal would potentially deal with one group of suppliers and another could deal with another group of suppliers.
We do not feel that the Government have taken on board the industry’s anxieties about a piece of future-proofing which appears to be of potential benefit to the Government in terms of legislative time but has very little to do with the actual operation of airports. The Government are clearly not able to identify it as a demand within the industry. It would cause severe difficulties. There have been difficulties just on the relatively minor, if still important, issues of airlines choosing under the free market, as they are entirely entitled to do, to change their requirements and move to another airport. The concept of competition between terminals takes us a massive stage further.
The Minister indicated in the debate on Amendment 17 that he thought that it was unnecessary, and that the clause provided an opportunity for action when it is needed. I am not at all clear that a case has been made for action in terms of competition between individual terminals. I cannot see just where the demand is coming from at this stage. However, I am aware of airports’ anxieties about losing a great deal from the arrangements, and the fact that that the arrangements might prove largely unworkable.
Again, I apologise to the Committee for the fact that our amendments are not more precise on these issues, but this a pretty general problem. That is why we thought that it would be advantageous for us to speak against the clause standing part in Committee, in order that voice could given to the general issues which are raised by Clause 9 and the immediately subsequent clauses.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions but I am afraid that I must oppose the amendment and support the Question that these important clauses stand part of the Bill.
Inter-terminal competition may be some time off and the Bill makes no provisions about timing. However, it is important that we future-proof the legislation. The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, talked about disruption and consternation. Clearly, this would not be in the interests of passengers, and the CAA would therefore not allow such competition because it would be in conflict with its primary duty to the passengers and owners of cargo.
The noble Lord said that different airlines have different needs. He is, of course, quite right. Some airlines want to run a premium service and others want to be no-frills. However, the CAA will have to strike the balance between those differing requirements as well as replicate the effect of competition.
The Bill does not, in general, require inter-terminal competition but does accommodate the possibility. Promoting competition between terminals under the Bill would not happen if the cost implications of doing so meant that it would not benefit the passengers, again under the CAA’s primary duty. In the circumstances postulated, there is no question that the CAA would seek to require inter-terminal competition. If, however, an airport chose, say, to lease a terminal to a third party, the Bill would remain in service, and I will come back to that in a moment.
Clause 10 empowers the CAA to determine, by applying the criteria set out in Clause 9, including in cases where one or more separate entities have some form of management control over that area. Clause 11 contains provisions for the publication of operator determinations made under Clause 10 by the CAA. Clause 12 empowers the CAA to make operator determination in advance, on the basis of circumstances that may not yet have arisen.
The amendments to Clause 12 seek to remove the CAA’s powers to carry out an advance operator determination. However, before I get on to why the amendments are not desirable, I wish to reassure your Lordships on why “standard” operator determinations under Clauses 9, 10 and 11 are a necessary part of the legislation. These clauses are important for regulatory certainty, enabling a person to know whether they are the operator of an airport area for the purposes of Part 1. Otherwise, in difficult cases it will be uncertain who the operator is and who is not, and therefore who is and who is not subject to economic regulation. This means that they cannot be clear as to their legal obligations, and neither they nor their financial backers can know with certainty whether they will be subject to economic regulation.
The clause is not focused solely on the possible future scenario where intra-airport competition can be introduced. For example, it could apply where a whole airport was leased and some management functions were split between lessor and lessee. However, noble Lords have rightly pointed out that these clauses are important for ensuring that the Bill allows for the regulatory regime to work in a scenario where there are multiple operators of different airport areas at one airport—in other words, where there is inter-terminal competition. Inter-terminal competition is more likely to lead to more complex ownership arrangements.
I have already mentioned that it was a recommendation of the Competition Commission in its BAA Airports Market Investigation report of 2008 to allow for the regulatory regime to function where inter-terminal competition is present. The present legislation, the Airports Act 1986, does not allow for this possibility. If we, the Government, had not made these provisions, no doubt noble Lords would suggest that we should have done so, praying in aid the Competition Commission’s recommendations. It is important to note that these clauses do not empower the CAA to introduce inter-terminal competition; they merely ensure that if inter-terminal competition becomes a reality, the regulatory regime can accommodate the scenario.
Clause 10 empowers the CAA to make binding operator determinations on the basis of the circumstances at the time the determination is made. However, this is considered insufficient where a person wants to know whether they will comprise the “operator” in the event that they take some control over an airport area. Against this background, to allow for greater regulatory and commercial certainty, Clause 12 empowers the CAA to make advance determinations—that is, determinations on the basis of circumstances that have not yet arisen. This would include a determination that, if a lease were executed with specified terms, the lessee would or would not comprise the operator.
The first amendment would deprive the CAA of the power to make an advance operator determination. The Government cannot agree to this because it would increase regulatory uncertainty and possibly stultify commercial transactions. I therefore urge noble Lords to withdraw their opposition to the clauses.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, the Minister made the best fist that he could of a fairly weak argument. Of course, I recognise the merits of the clauses, in that he made it clear that it is important to define the operator and to know whom we are talking about. Who could possibly gainsay that proposition?
In objecting to the clause, I am not objecting to the sense that lies behind the elements within the clause to which the Minister addressed some of his remarks. I indicated that in opposing the clause I recognised this to be a fairly blunderbuss approach and that we have not refined our opposition in amendments—something that we may do in due course, perhaps on Report. However, I say to the Minister that in this general debate anxieties have been expressed across the Committee, and he has not allayed those anxieties at all, apart from—
Lord Trefgarne
I am afraid that the noble Lord is mistaken. The Minister has very much allayed my anxieties about this matter. I see these clauses as facilitating competition between terminals at a particular airport. What is the matter with that? When the operator comes to choose the terminal from which he wishes to operate, he will select the one that offers him the best deal—maybe it has the best duty-free shops or is the cheapest—and these benefits will be passed on to the passengers. I am very much in favour of these clauses and I hope that the noble Lord will not press the question of whether they should stand part of the Bill.
Lord Davies of Oldham
I am delighted that the noble Lord had his anxieties allayed. They are obviously not as acute as those on this side of the Committee. In particular, if the noble Lord is all in favour of inter-terminal competition, perhaps he will ask the Minister to identify just where this is a raging success that we would want to encourage. The only specific example that we have so far is subject to considerable criticism. As the noble Lord indicated, airport operators are accurately defined in the legislation; I will not gainsay the necessity of that. None of them speaks well of future-proofing what they regard as a disadvantageous element of the Bill, which will introduce the possibility of inter-terminal competition. In particular, by putting it in the Bill in the way that they have, the Government limit parliamentary debate to secondary legislation. We know the limitations of that.
However, I seek to identify that this concept is a significant departure from how any British airport is run at present, and from how any successful airport is run elsewhere. Unless the Minister produces some evidence of how competition works to the benefit of the passenger—which he signally failed to do in his earlier contribution—the Committee will recognise that, far from my anxieties being allayed, they are more pronounced. Of course, I recognise that objecting to a clause standing part—or three clauses in this case, which is the first time that I have engaged in such an extensive operation—is something from which I shall have to resile fairly promptly. However, I do so to air a significant aspect of this debate. I say to the Minister that we are so dissatisfied with the response at this stage that he must assume that we will take this issue further on Report.
Earl Attlee
I am curious about the noble Lord’s attitude to the Competition Commission’s recommendation that we should provide for inter-terminal competition. Does he support that view or not?
Lord Davies of Oldham
Of course, I recognise the role of the Competition Commission and we applaud a great deal of its work. However, when it makes recommendations, one must also consider the industry’s likely response to the proposal that is being put forward. All I say is that the noble Earl has not identified any aspect of British industry that considers this to be an intelligent and sensible development. Nor is he able to identify any example from elsewhere in the world where this form of competition has redounded to the benefit of the consumer.
Lord Trefgarne
With the noble Lord’s permission, I will cite an example. Many years ago, I landed my aeroplane at Miami International Airport. I had not chosen the terminal at which to land. I negotiated with three different terminals over the radio, found the cheapest and in I went—very good, too.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, that is a very good illustration. If the noble Lord had also indicated that hurricanes were raging at the time and he was able to put down with the help of the airport, I have no doubt that we would all regard that as an extreme benefit.
However, airports always adjust to emergencies, so if the noble Lord is saying that as the pilot of a private plane he can see stupendous advantages in inter-terminal competition, how many people do I have to count in order to introduce into legislation a very significant development? Is it is the number of people who own and fly private aircraft? Our consideration of government legislation ought to be undertaken on a wider perspective than that and the Government’s defence of it ought to be a jolly sight wider too. But, of course, I shall withdraw my opposition to the clause standing part.
Lord Davies of Oldham
“( ) A licence must include an obligation on licence holders to procure and publish annual surveys of passenger satisfaction, including but not limited to—
(a) baggage handling services, and(b) arrangements for delays to affected air passengers.”
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 25 and 26 in this group. Amendment 24 is fairly straightforward. We should remember that a principle of the Bill is ensuring customer satisfaction and the welfare of passengers. We seek through the amendments in this group to make the possibility of those satisfactions greater by ensuring that there is an annual survey of passenger satisfaction that would include baggage-handling services, which we recognise are outside the control of the airport operator because they are under private contract, and arrangements after delays to air passengers.
All forms of transport can produce their irritations and even the most trouble-free journey can attract criticism. However, dissatisfaction with air transport hits the headlines from time to time—regular travellers, given their experience, probably feel that it does not hit the headlines often enough. Amendment 24 would require the airport authorities to carry out regular surveys in order better to inform them on the nature of consumer dissatisfaction. The surveys would cover all delays and the arrangements made as a consequence, because there is no doubt that delay is an all-too-common feature of air travel and causes a great deal of disturbance to passengers.
There are commendable parts of the Bill and the Minister appreciates that we are broadly in favour of it. As we indicated on Second Reading, we accept its principles. One of the principles is the value of open data and publishing information that will advance the service provided by airports. There is no doubt that information about delays and the experience of the services offered at airports can do two things: improve the performance of the airport that is subject to criticism through these reports and inform the passenger of comparative performance. Given that airports can be competitive in terms of the services that they operate and the airlines that fly from them, this information for passengers should be welcomed.
I put forward these principles in the knowledge that other Members of the Committee are likely to be well disposed towards something more than just freedom of information requests and consider that accurate information on performance should be volunteered to the general public. We all know that when things go wrong, they often go very badly wrong indeed. In its pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill, the Select Committee on Transport in the other place said that, where possible, airport licences should be structured to address key areas of passenger satisfaction. The surveys that are carried out demonstrate, in the main, a positive attitude to the flight experience, because people are successful in getting from one point to another. Not many people do that on a daily basis, although I have no doubt that a few benighted souls are forced to depend on air travel to that extent. However, levels of satisfaction show less than optimum agreement on baggage handling, which can often prove to be a massive irritation, and on delays at border control, which is a substantial issue.
I am conscious that in the other place it was indicated that the Bill cannot impact directly on government policy on immigration control and the Home Office’s operational control of UKBA. I respect that limitation. However, we cannot discuss issues about airport delays without making reference to the obvious fact that security considerations often prove to be the source of some of the most irksome delays. Therefore, when the Minister replies, I hope that he will not just fall back on the point that I have already conceded—that this legislation can deal with them directly—but that he will appreciate, when considering the issue of the welfare of passengers and the satisfaction that they derive from their flights, because problems occur because there has not been sufficient anticipation of the demands made of the border force, because there are insufficient officers on duty, or because a decision is taken, for security reasons, that every single passenger, whatever their category, should be subject to exactly the same controls. We are bound to acknowledge that this is of concern to us. We all have the welfare of the industry at heart, but this is a subject of very considerable anxiety among passengers.
I have discussed this issue externally in order to get a slightly more objective view, rather than just being critical of the arrangements in the United Kingdom. I have friends who regularly experience the delights of entering the United States of America—delights that often translate into great appreciation of the country once they are there but scarcely describe the experience they often encounter at US airports. British people enter as aliens, of course, and are subject to what often looks like a somewhat arbitrary operation on the part of the American authorities. Huge queues develop and it is not unusual for people disgorged from aircraft to have to wait for several hours in queues for entry into the country. I take it that we seek to make representations on behalf of British citizens when these problems arise, so we ought to pay the same due consideration with regard to flights into Britain.
Amendment 25 would require,
“the holder of a licence to develop passenger welfare plans”.
This was a recommendation made by the Transport Committee following its pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill. We pay tribute to the fact that the Civil Aviation Authority has made some constructive moves in this direction. It has established a consumer panel to act as a critical friend. We certainly would like to buttress the position of the Transport Committee, which is that the consumer panel ought to focus on the welfare of passengers. The panel was established recently and, as I say, its purpose is to act as a critical friend. It provides a consumer perspective on all aspects of the CAA’s work, which is very welcome, and in particular it is meant to concentrate on the passenger experience and the enforcement of consumer protection legislation. The panel members are looked to to provide a source of challenge to the Civil Aviation Authority on how to identify consumer interests and to ensure that they are reflected in the authority’s work. However, in this legislation the Government have not included passenger welfare plans as part of a licence for airports. They simply claim that the CAA will draw up licences to cover such welfare.
Earl Attlee
We will see what happens in the next reshuffle.
My honourable friend the Immigration Minister is reviewing what additional data may be published by the Home Office and shared with port operators. Meanwhile, the border force has responded to recent problems in a number of ways. It is tackling short-term peaks with a pool of trained staff, working with airports and airlines to ensure that they provide more accurate passenger manifests and flight schedules so that the border force can flexibly deploy staff at the right times and places, creating a new central control room for the border force at Heathrow that uses mobile teams for rapid deployment, and implementing new rostering and shift patterns. The border force is also working with Gatwick and Heathrow airports to improve passenger flows, using more specific measures such as e-gates and other biometric checks.
There can be no doubt that passengers want efficient baggage-handling services when they travel by air. The experience of recent years has also demonstrated how vital it is that airports prepare effectively for potential disruption. It is clear that the aviation sector as a whole needs to have effective means of dealing with passenger welfare during disruption of services. While I can therefore understand and agree with the sentiment behind these amendments and what noble Lords have said, I cannot recommend accepting them into the Bill. The text of the Bill already provides the most effective means of protecting passenger interests in relation to the matters raised.
Clause 18 and the licensing regime as a whole will give the CAA the flexibility to tailor licence conditions to the specific circumstances facing individual airports with substantial market power. This flexibility is an important means of minimising the distortions associated with regulatory intervention and ensuring that action taken by the CAA is proportionate. However, we also believe that giving the independent expert regulator flexibility and discretion in deciding the content of the licence is the most effective way to protect the interests of present and future passengers. If Parliament chooses to use this legislation to hard-code certain points in licences, it would constrain the regulator’s freedom to decide what priority should be afforded to different passenger concerns and what costs should be allowed for the delivery of competing consumer priorities. As the Minister of State said in Committee in the House of Commons, amendments such as these would make the licence system unbalanced because passengers care about a whole range of different issues. Moreover, a prescriptive approach in the Bill is likely to make it more difficult for the regulator to adapt its approach to the changing concerns of passengers. In 2005, who would have thought that volcanic ash would have been a major problem later on?
If we were to adopt these amendments, they would oblige the CAA to give greater weight to these factors than other matters that might become equally or more important to passengers in the future. This danger was recognised by the noble Lord, Lord Soley. Your Lordships can be very confident that the CAA will already use the new licensing powers proposed in the Bill to focus on, for example, operational resilience and passenger welfare in the event of extreme disruption—not least because of the CAA’s Clause 1 duties, as the noble Lord, Lord Davies, recognised. And why it would it not do so?
As we have discussed in Committee, in response to a request for advice from the Secretary of State, the CAA published an indicative licence in January to assist Parliament in its scrutiny of the Bill, and a copy has been sent to the House of Commons Library. At the request of the Department for Transport, the draft licence includes provisions on operational resilience. The proposals in condition 7 would require the licence holder to operate the airport efficiently and use its best endeavours to minimise detriment to passengers arising from disruption. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, mentioned disruption due to winter. When I visited Gatwick Airport before the most recent winter and saw all the new equipment in place, I was absolutely confident that the winter would be very mild.
It would also require the airport to draw up, consult on and gain the CAA’s approval for an annual resilience plan setting out how it would secure compliance with its obligations under the condition. The licence holder will then be obliged to comply with the commitments it has made in its resilience plan. The CAA sought initial views from industry in drafting the indicative licence. However, since Parliament has not yet concluded its consideration of the Bill, the CAA has not yet started to consult on proposed licence conditions for each airport that will be subject to regulation.
If the system proposed in the Bill is implemented, the CAA will consider the extent to which it is necessary or expedient to include conditions in a licence for operational resilience and other matters such as passenger welfare. The CAA expects that activities that might be expected to be part of the new licence regime would include taking into account other obligations on service quality standards, and the success of codes of conduct and voluntary arrangements being adopted by industry. Against this background we believe that putting specific requirements in the Bill on issues such as baggage handling and operational resilience could prove to be a disproportionate response that would place an unnecessary restriction on the CAA’s flexibility to develop proportionate and effective ways to address passenger concerns—and might even lead it to address the wrong ones.
In summary, the Bill provides the CAA—the body with the relevant operational expertise—after appropriate consultation, with the flexibility to determine appropriate and effective licence conditions. The amendments in this group could undermine our goal of giving the specialist regulator a flexible toolkit to protect the passenger. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who introduced significant points, to which the Minister paid due regard—about as much regard as he paid to the points that I made in my opening speech. If through the amendments in this group I had sought to introduce microscopic instructions to the CAA on what it ought to do that would limit its capacity to fulfil its duties, I would quite understand the thrust of the Minister’s response. However, the first of the three amendments to which I addressed my remarks requires publication of an annual survey. This is not desperately specific but merely indicates that it would be a very good idea if the licence holder—the airport authority—gave some account to the general public of the effectiveness of its operation.
The second amendment suggests that the licence holder should develop passenger welfare plans. That is not specific; it merely indicates that it should be incumbent on the licence holder to fulfil the obligation that apparently underpins the Bill, which is to provide a better service to passengers. The third amendment merely suggests that support is necessary and should be provided for stranded passengers at airports. There is no Member of this Committee—including the Minister—who does not agree that action must be taken in this area. The Minister went so far as to indicate that strenuous efforts had been made to ensure that the numbers of such stranded passengers would decrease. I am not sure that Gatwick has the equipment to affect the climate and make our winters milder, but I know exactly what he meant. It now has the equipment to keep aircraft manoeuvring and able to fly, whereas over the winter that caused so much distress the airports did not have that.
We are merely asking for provision to be made for stranded passengers—an objective that the Minister says he shares—and I cannot think that the actions of the Civil Aviation Authority are cabined, confined or constrained by including these amendments in the provision on how the licence is granted. However, at this stage, I accept that the Minister is not as warm about these amendments as he is about the forecast for future winters, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Davies of Oldham
“( ) provisions requiring the holder of a licence to prevent users of air transport services buying preferential access to check-in and security processes on an outbound journey and immigration control and baggage reclaim processes on an inbound journey.”
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, it is my approach today to produce completely uncontroversial amendments, and I am sure that this will be the least controversial. I am not entirely confident that the Minister will accept it but I know that the sentiments behind it will be shared by all Members of the Committee.
The subject of concern tackled by the amendment is obvious enough, such are the difficulties at our airports at certain times. Heathrow, being the largest and dealing with the largest number of passengers, inevitably has the longest passenger queues, which are the bugbear of people entering the country. The proposal is that, if some people pay enough, they can bypass the restrictions. Surely that is so contrary to the main principle on which the coalition works—that we are all in this together—that not a single Member of the Committee will beseech the Minister to accept the proposition.
It is proposed that substantial amounts of money can be garnered by the airport by offering preferential opportunities to those who are prepared to pay. It is suggested that £1,800 will enable passengers to avoid the queues. Heathrow is thus offering a back-door service for wealthy air passengers. This does not appear in any of the normal communications to passengers but is offered discreetly to the well favoured. Wealthy air passengers can pay £1,800 to bypass the passport check queues.
I have already indicated to noble Lords that I recognise the limitations of the Bill with regard to the UK border force but this provision relates directly to the way in which passport checks are operated. Whereas some people endure queues of up to three hours because passport control desks may be understaffed, or because the pressures and anxieties surrounding the security position justifiably lead to more intensive scrutiny of passengers coming in, rich passengers can get through in minutes.
Border staff may be taken away from their regular duties to process this arrangement for the privileged, which is a VIP offering that Heathrow sought to keep secret. The airport should not pursue such strategies. It should come to an end. However, the best way of guaranteeing that neither Heathrow nor any other airport contemplates this heinous practice is to put it in legislation. I beg to move.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, while I am sympathetic to the noble Lord’s wish to ensure that there is no corruption through people buying their way through the airport, there are some people whom I would wish to have preferential treatment—for example, members of the Royal Family and the heads of state of other nations. How does the noble Lord think they should be accommodated if the restrictions that he proposes are put in place?
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I do not think that the issue of payment is likely to arise with members of the Royal Family or diplomatic staff because the arrangements for how they should be treated are agreed with the airport authorities. That is very different from saying that you can enhance the value of your ticket with extra money to get through the queue quickly. That is the practice to which I object. I am not saying that the Royal Family fit into that category. I imagine that it is also not the case for diplomats. We also have control over the process of entry to the country for air crews, but we do not expect them to take their turn in the queue because we recognise that special arrangements should be made for them. I do not want to exclude some special arrangements; I object to a scheme that enables those who are wealthy enough to purchase privilege.
Lord Berkeley
I suppose my noble friend is thinking in particular about those bankers who are now all over the press for possibly having committed criminal acts to fiddle the LIBOR. They are probably the only people who could afford to spend an extra £2,000 or so to save five or 10 minutes—or maybe several hours—coming into the country. There is just one thing that I would add to this. There is some benefit in having famous people who are prepared to speak out going through the same process as everyone else. Occasionally, they get so fed up that they go to the media and complain about it. I suspect that part of the reason why things are getting better at immigration in airports is that one or two people have had the guts to speak out and say, “This is iniquitous”. If these people were tempted to jump the queue by paying £1,000 or £2,000, we would lose that. My noble friend has made a very strong argument for having this in legislation on the basis that people should not pay extra for special treatment.
Lord Trefgarne
Perhaps the noble Lord will tell us how he proposes that disabled people should be handled. They often have special provision at airports, which is necessary and very proper.
Lord Davies of Oldham
On the latter category, we are shortly to debate the arrangements for the disabled, and I hope to provide reassurance. I accept what the noble Lord is saying; of course there are special arrangements for the disabled. We all know why it is necessary for the law to be strengthened in that area, and I shall be proposing an amendment to deal with that matter.
The situation that I have identified is not concerned with people going through different routes according to their ticket, but the question of how one goes through the state’s immigration controls. The contention that you are less of a security risk because you are wealthy is dubious. After all, I seem to remember Bin Laden did not come from a totally impecunious family. It is not the case that those who have a great deal of money are better security risks. Why on earth should everyone else, for the necessary security of the nation, be obliged to suffer some of the privations that occur from time to time? I fail to understand how one can market a package that guarantees that one is whisked through security.
Lord Berkeley
Does my noble friend agree that the key to the amendment is the word, “buying”. There is nothing to stop the provision of different queues for first-class passengers or others at check-in or security. The question is: have they paid extra to go through that facility rather than for the facilities on the flight?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am aware that a similarly worded amendment was tabled in Committee in the House of Commons, but that related to Clause 83, on provision of:
“Information for the benefit of users of air transport services”.
The stated aim of that amendment was to close a perceived gap in the information that will be published under that clause on what passengers can expect to experience when departing or arriving at an airport, especially in relation to how long they should expect to wait to have their passport checked. The Government supported the broad intention of that amendment. Giving consumers more information on the quality of service provided by airports and airlines will help to maximise the benefits that markets deliver to passengers. However, the Minister of State ultimately resisted the amendment on the basis that the Bill already enables the CAA to require the collection and publication of information on check-in, baggage handling and security queues. He further explained that the UK border force, the authority responsible for border controls relating to arriving and departing passengers and goods, is responsible to Ministers and Parliament, and said that this is a more effective and appropriate means to hold the UK border force to account than giving the CAA power to oversee its activities.
The amendment today goes further than the previous one by seeking to prevent users from buying preferential access to check-in, security, immigration control and baggage reclaim processes. In considering the amendment, the Committee should note the distinction between check-in and baggage reclaim processes, and aviation security and border-control processes—the latter being subject to exacting standards enshrined in legislation. For example, airports are required, pursuant to international standards and EU and domestic regulatory requirements, to ensure that all passengers undergo security screening to specified levels. This is subject to monitoring and enforcement through security inspections and tests by the regulator. Legislation also requires full travel document checks to be conducted on all passengers, including all British citizens, arriving at the UK border. As the Minister of State made clear in the House of Commons, the security of our borders and the checks that need to be undertaken to protect us from those who would enter our country to do us harm are treated with paramount importance.
I am aware that the BAA runs a VIP suite scheme at Heathrow. The UK border force does not charge BAA or the VIPs any money for the provision of this service, nor does the BAA cover any border force costs. I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, with full details of the number of years that these arrangements have been in place. As long as standards of security and immigration are maintained at all times and in respect of all passengers, the Government do not wish to prevent the market offering access to these services, which are tailored to the needs of passengers. However, there is no question of reduced security, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Davies.
Your Lordships will no doubt be aware that a number of airlines offer faster check-in services to premium travellers who are willing to pay a premium for the service. The Government do not wish to prevent passengers benefiting from such products. If the concern is that the purchase of preferential access to check-in or baggage control processes would be an impediment to competition, the Bill already provides the CAA with the necessary powers to address that.
In summary, aviation security and immigration processes at UK airports must comply with exacting standards that are enshrined in legislation. There is no scope for passengers to pay to avoid these processes. The Government believe that the amendment goes too far in attempting to prevent the market offering access to these and other services that are tailored to the specific needs of users. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord will consider withdrawing the amendment.
Lord Davies of Oldham
I am grateful to the Minister for his response, although I still believe that he is failing to recognise the context in which we find ourselves. That answer might have sufficed a decade ago, but as he knows only too well, we are operating a very stringent security regime at our airports. We all know the privations that occur from time to time. We know that people have to queue for hours on end because of the necessary requirements. The Government say that it is about security and the market has the right to provide preferential treatment for some. It seems to me that the concept of security is an obligation for every citizen. I do not see why there are favoured circumstances for a few, nor do I think it is conducive to the implementation of the security requirements if people believe that there is an inherent unfairness. The noble Earl made no reference whatever to that. Of course I recognise that no payment has been made by the airport to the Home Office with regard to this. However, if people are being transferred from heavily pressed desks to facilitate entry for those who have paid a premium, one should not be at all surprised that the difficulties occurring at airports are growing acutely. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, but the Minister may come to rue the day.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, this is a minor and technical amendment and as such I do not expect it to be controversial. It seeks to make the drafting in sub-paragraph (2)(a) of paragraph 22 of Schedule 2 consistent with the rest of that paragraph. It corrects the omission of the words “information or evidence” from the phrase “matter, information or evidence”. This phrase can be found elsewhere in paragraph 22. So this amendment makes sub-paragraph (2)(a) consistent with the other provisions in paragraph 22 of Schedule 2, which delineates the circumstances in which the Competition Commission may allow new matters, information or evidence to be adduced in appeals brought before it. Paragraph 22 of Schedule 2 generally prohibits the Competition Commission from considering any matter, information or evidence in an appeal that was not in the appeal before the Civil Aviation Authority.
However, in common with other appellate jurisdictions, there are limited circumstances where, in the interests of justice, this general rule needs to be capable of being displaced. It is necessary for the power to displace this rule so as to be co-extensive with the scope of the general prohibition. I beg to move.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I agree with the Minister. Try as I might, I can find nothing controversial in his amendment.
Lord Empey
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 74. Members will, I am sure, recall that we had a debate in this Room in November last year on transport links between the regions and London. Subsequently, in December last year, I tabled a Private Member’s Bill, the Airports (Amendment) Bill, which was given a Second Reading in the House on 16 March.
The amendment’s fundamental aim is to deal with the situation whereby the regions of the United Kingdom do not have guaranteed air access to our principal airport at Heathrow. As your Lordships are aware, the issue of landing slots is controversial, with their ownership in some cases disputed. What is not disputed is that, particularly as far as Heathrow is concerned, airlines have the use of the slots and even put the value attached to them on their balance sheets.
There is no doubt that there has been a significant improvement in air access between the Greater London area and many of the regions, which is to be welcomed. However, the reality is that, while a number of airports have tried to expand their portfolio of destinations, Heathrow is currently the principal hub airport for the United Kingdom. As a consequence, when we consider the amount of money that the Government have put into regional policy, as well as the considerable resources which continue to be put in by the European Union—indeed, in many cases providing funds for infrastructure at airports to promote links between the regions and our national hub airport—it seems an anomaly that the Government have no powers to intervene to ensure that air access exists between the national hub airport and the regions.
That is a serious weakness. Things are changing that quickly in the airline industry. To take an example from my own city, Belfast, Members will be aware that British Airways took over British Midland Airways Ltd recently. A lot of controversy was created because people said that that could theoretically put the principal route between Belfast City Airport and Heathrow under threat. People argued that, as the slots are more valuable to airlines for international routes than domestic routes, there would be a long-term temptation to switch to those sorts of routes.
There was a second development a few weeks ago when Aer Lingus, which runs three flights per day between Belfast International Airport and Heathrow, decided to move to Belfast City Airport. That means that all the Heathrow to Belfast routes are now going from the one airport. If that was not enough, Etihad Airways put in a bid for a percentage of Aer Lingus and only two weeks ago Michael O’Leary said that he wanted to buy the whole of Aer Lingus. When we look at the profile of Etihad Airways and of Mr O’Leary, I am not confident that we could see a guarantee of our air access to Heathrow.
There is a major European Union dimension to this. As the Minister knows, I have been to Brussels twice in the past few months pursuing issues there because, by coincidence, they are looking at the same issue. In December of last year, the Commission produced draft regulations of the Parliament and the Council on common rules for the allocation of slots at European Union airports. They are looking at this and a number of issues at the same time.
If that were not sufficient, the European Parliament has produced an own-initiative report which was passed by the Parliament in May of this year, paragraph 23 of which says that it,
“considers it essential for regional airports to have access to hubs”.
That is exactly what I am trying to achieve through these amendments, because there is a serious weakness. It cannot be right that, as a nation, we invest heavily in trying to develop the commerce and tourism of our regions and at the same time leave in question one of the principal points of access, particularly for an area like mine where there is not the alternative of a train or of road. There is only travel by ferry or air. If you are trying to develop a region to be commercially attractive, it needs air access to the main hub.
Air access is entirely at the mercy of the airlines. The Minister has repeatedly said that the Government are not able to intervene. That is not satisfactory. It puts regions at risk. I have quoted one example of the significant changes in my own region in the past few weeks. That fills people with concern and creates doubt. Doubt creates a potential obstacle to investment, which we do not want to see.
I understand that the Minister has to have regard to the European dimension, which is critical. I visited the European Union two weeks ago and went to the office of Commissioner Kallas, who is responsible for transport, and discussed issues there, and on a number of occasions with Members of the European Parliament because they are engaged in a co-decision process. We happen to have a legislative vehicle passing through at the moment and they, by coincidence, are doing the same thing and looking at slots. There seems to be a unique opportunity to do something to ensure that the regions will not be left out in the cold.
I know that these are difficult issues. You are effectively interfering in the natural competition process, in so far as these slots are attributed by value and if you interfere with them you affect their value. That is why I met with people in Brussels who have specific responsibility for competition issues as well. All of these things we have to deal with. While there are perfectly good connections, and under EU Council Regulation 95/93 a public service obligation can be given to assist transport between one region and another should there be market failure, there is no provision to link a specific city to a specific airport, which is precisely what we need in our case. While there is no market failure at the moment, and I hope that no market failure will ever occur, the fact remains that a principal instrument of government policy—the promotion and economic welfare of the regions, which is also held as a common view by the European Union—is now entirely at the whim of whatever commercial operation happens to be going on within or between airlines. That is not a satisfactory situation, which is why I tabled Amendment 46.
Amendment 74 deals with the point that introducing my proposals would be against European Union regulations. Amendment 74 merely points out that the powers would reside with the Secretary of State but could not be implemented until they became compliant with European Union regulations. That, in essence, is what I am trying to achieve: that the regions are guaranteed access to the principal hub airport at Heathrow, and that we become compliant with European Union regulations, where Parliament has already expressed that it is essential for regions to have access to hubs. As for its part in the co-decision process, I hope that over the next year or so in Brussels we will be able to make the arguments that will make us compliant with European Union regulations. I beg to move.
Lord Davies of Oldham
Briefly, I have considerable sympathy with the case put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Empey. We appreciate that Belfast and Northern Ireland have a particular interest in air travel. I also draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that Scotland, and Edinburgh in particular, is also concerned about the reduction in services that may be attendant on commercial transactions on slots.
I recognise that this is a difficult issue for the Minister, particularly as we are divided on much of the guidance on what government aviation policy is in the round. This dimension of it therefore explores an area on which the Government are likely to say that we could come back next month, or perhaps the month after. Unfortunately, time and tide wait for no man and neither does legislation, because the Minister has to try to get his legislation through. Here is a clear case of where it would be helpful to have a clear view on government policy.
I am sure that the Minister will do his best on this amendment. I have no doubt that it is quite critical in the development of aviation policy. I therefore very much look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say.
Civil Aviation Bill
Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Jenkin of Roding
Certainly, the question of paying for it would have to be considered in some detail. The great advantage of the Foster + Partners proposal as put forward is that they recognise that this would be financed not by the taxpayer but by investment which they would attract perhaps from around the world. There should be a great deal of investment interest in a project of this kind. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, is absolutely right, of course, that when this goes to the IPC or its successor, this is precisely the sort of thing that would need to be demonstrated, along with all the other things that the planning system requires. If, however, the Department for Transport is unable to meet the proponents of such a scheme, it will start with not one but two hands behind its back. That is why I have pressed my noble friend to say that in the context of the HS2 consultation he will meet the people concerned, and I very much hope that his officials will feel that it is appropriate for him to do so.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, the Minister’s worst nightmare must have been fulfilled from this opening debate—namely, because the Committee has, quite appropriately, addressed itself to what the amendment says about surface transport, and of course that then gives a wide range of exciting prospects on how we could improve surface transport. I will put my three penn’orth in if I may. Manchester Airport is very eager that the metro should be part of its facilities. It is some distance away at present. The airport is certainly prepared to face a proportion of the costs. We have heard the anxieties and proposals for the necessary improvement to surface transport to our airports expressed in very cogent terms. The danger is that that will open up a very wide-ranging discussion, as we have heard.
The Minister may have the obvious consolation, which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, and I identified, that most of these issues cannot possibly be covered by an extension to the remit of the CAA. We are largely talking about transport projects of the greatest significance, linking our major centres of population to our airports through improvements, which are certainly necessary to all the London airports. Apart from Birmingham, which already boasts excellent rail communication and has great expectations for HS2, all airports recognise that the ease with which people can arrive at them is absolutely critical to the experience and choice of travelling by air. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, indicated, I doubt that this substantial range of transport issues is meant to be laid at the door of the CAA. I imagine that the Minister, while commenting constructively, as I hope he will, in response to Members of the Committee on ideas for improving connections, will say that this is not a matter with which we can directly charge the CAA.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, as we have heard today, surface transport access is a very important concern for our major airports—not just regulated ones but non-regulated airports, too. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Bradshaw for enabling us to debate this topic today.
My noble friend is certainly correct to say that without good transport access, it will not be possible for our airports to maintain their strong position compared to their European counterparts, and that we must ensure that people using our airports have access to a range of options for getting to and from them. That is why the Government have put a heavy emphasis on the importance of high-quality public transport to our airports. It is one of the reasons why Thameslink will deliver considerable improvements to access at Gatwick. It is why HS2 and Crossrail will, in the future, deliver important improvements at Heathrow, and it is why the upgrade of London Underground will further enhance access to Heathrow.
My noble friend Lord Bradshaw touched on the problems of the Gatwick Express. When I visited Gatwick Airport, the management certainly made that point to me very strongly.
Your Lordships will also be aware that the Government are seeking to invest in improving access to non-regulated airports through regional growth funding, including, for example, by upgrading junction 10A of the M1 near Luton and through realigning and tunnelling a section of the A45 to facilitate the extension of Birmingham Airport’s runway. The Government recognise the vital contributions that regional airports make to local economies and that regional connectivity is important, as explained by my noble friend Lord Bradshaw.
The amendments seek to expand the scope of CAA’s primary duty for its airport economic regulation functions to meet this point. Specifically, the primary duty is expanded by putting the provision of surface access links on an equal footing with airport operation services. Given the importance of surface access, I sympathise with the thinking behind this amendment. It is important that regulated airports can invest in surface transport access in so far as their unregulated counterparts would be able to do so.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I am assured that it does, so that is fine. No doubt my noble friend will explain that.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, given that the Bill has been through the other place without this debate being advanced there to any degree, we are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, for his introduction of these amendments. I will be very interested in the Minister’s response. We can all see that the primary responsibility of the CAA in respect of regulated airports means that any aspect of general aviation may be pretty low in its priorities, although some aspects of business aviation have other advantages to the country. However, I must counter some of the rosier views of general aviation with an obvious point. The last time that private flying came to the attention of the general public was in the case of the individual who went up in his private aircraft each night to avoid a day on British soil counting against him and affecting his tax returns. So there is another side to private aviation.
I am very guarded about this but I have some sympathy with the points that the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, put forward. He may have over-egged the pudding with all three amendments. I will be most interested in the Minister’s response to Amendment 3. It merely asks that these interests are promoted and safeguarded, which seems a fairly minimal requirement.
Lord Berkeley
I am grateful to the noble Earl for that explanation. I have a couple of very simple and quick questions. I assume that when he says there is an issue about being subject to price control, he is talking about baggage handling, car parking and things like that rather than the price of slots, which I think he said is outside everything. I would be grateful for his confirmation of that.
Lord Davies of Oldham
The Minister will, no doubt, give an answer to that in just a moment. I am grateful to him for these amendments. As he said, there was considerable anxiety in the other place when discussing the concept of the dominant market. I am still trying to get my head round the position in respect of baggage at Heathrow being a dominant market, but will take the Minister’s word for that. I certainly accept the other extreme he put forward: all the airports in the south-east. We appreciate that, with these amendments, the Minister has helped to reassure us over the anxieties that were expressed in the other place. We all appreciate that it is not easy to get to this definition and that considerable efforts have been made. At first, I thought the cross-reference to the European Commission looked a bit like overkill, but the Minister is making sure he has belt and braces with regard to this, in response to the challenges that were made in the other place. I am quite sure my colleagues there will join me in thanking him for these amendments and accepting that they go a considerable way to allaying past anxieties and help the Bill.
Earl Attlee
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, is right that it is not the price of slots. The price of slots has an economic value, but it is not regulated.
Transport: Isles of Scilly Ferry Link
Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, wondered how far my brief would stretch. Unfortunately, it does not stretch as far as the condition of the Merchant Navy.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, surely the Minister has already recognised that the viability of the service depends on the tourist trade and that the people who live on the Scilly Isles—on very low incomes—are paying the tourist price for the vessels, namely £90. As my noble friend indicated, that is more than four times the amount that you would expect to pay to make a similar journey in Scotland. Is it not time that the Government looked at this very seriously? There are clear potential threats to the existing services, which in any case do not meet the islanders’ need.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am confident that there will be a service in the short term. The noble Lord asked about the cost of a ticket for the ferry. I understand that a day return is £35 and a period return costs £85 to £95. However a Scilly Isles resident’s return is £20.50, so they do get a discount.
European Rail Market: EUC Report
Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts(11 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, first, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain, the chairman of the committee, on this report and acknowledge the enormous amount of work she has been involved in in producing this significant document. Proof of the success of this work is the extent to which she has been backed by noble Lords from her committee who have made such telling contributions today. I shall refer to those in detail in a moment.
Ordinarily, these debates tend to revolve around the participation of committee members as they see the conclusion of their work and want to see the Government’s response. The distinguishing feature of this debate is that there also have been contributions from noble Lords who are not members of the committee but who have made significant points which I hope the Minister has taken on board. In my short contribution, I want to dwell on one or two of those points in order to clarify the issues for the Minister and, therefore, aid him in his response to the committee’s proposals.
If I have one criticism of the report, it is probably in its title. It looks more like a statement of aspiration than a potential achievement. The report identifies two things. The first is that completion is a long way away when we do not have full implementation of the first stage with regard to the Commission. Secondly, it concentrates on the specific British dimension of this work—the Channel Tunnel—and is far from satisfied with the present arrangements as regards that significant enterprise. Of course, we all engage with the committee in its broad objective. There is a huge advantage and benefit for the country if we can extend cross-border rail travel. In terms of travellers’ convenience and the broad environmental issues, we all know the potential advantages of rail over aircraft. That underpins the aspiration behind the report.
The Minister will recognise that committee members identified that the government response is somewhat lacklustre. It is particularly lacklustre on the most trenchant part of the committee’s report, in paragraph 136, which says:
“In the long-term, we support direct governance of the Channel Tunnel by the UK and French national regulators”.
That is the objective for our part of completing a dimension of our contribution to the single market. I should be grateful if the Minister would address himself to those points, although whether he accepts that the treaty of Canterbury can be revised in such a dramatic form is an interesting question.
What has been identified in the debate are the frustrations born of the existing structure for the Channel Tunnel, to which my noble friend Lord Faulkner referred, along with the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, in mentioning the issue of access charges, and my noble friend Lord Berkeley with his particular expertise, in discussing the direct operations of the Channel Tunnel.
The other dimension also needs to be taken fully on board. It was my noble friend Lord Faulkner who dwelt most significantly on these matters. I refer to how limited the development of the single market is in so many countries in Europe, even those with railway systems that we all applaud. We should approach the European position with a little degree of modesty. After all, there are some excellent rail systems in Europe, and it is the case that the British system compares ill in some crucial aspects. On the one highly significant feature—the report demonstrates that the concern is about the customer—the passenger in Britain pays 30% higher fares than in many European rail systems. So we ought not to think that we can easily lecture other systems on improvement in circumstances where our own house is not entirely in order. It is very likely that we will be discussing these issues against the backdrop of ever-increasing fares in the British system.
There is one other dimension on which the Minister will need to tread with some degree of care. Of course, we all recognise the necessary emphasis in Britain on border controls to preserve the protection of the public, but it is also the case that the border controls at present work in such a way as to produce the maximum irksomeness for the average passenger without, from what one can see, very significantly enhancing the security dimension.
These are factors that should concern us. Tribute has already been paid to the noble Lord, Lord Roper, with regard to the European Union Committee over many years. From that work, we know that the reports of this House are taken seriously in Brussels. But on rail we will need to force the issue in a very sharp way indeed as it is clear that there is an awful backlog to catch up on. We must expect a more positive response from Europe, but that above all means that we must have government support and a government initiative that is clear on its objectives and determined to ensure that, even if we cannot complete the European rail market in the immediate future, we can take many more significant strides than we have done in recent years.
Civil Aviation Bill
Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts(11 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his clear exposition of the contents of this important Bill. He will know that we, on this side of the House, are familiar and indeed, supportive, of its broad structure. That is not surprising since, as the Minister indicated, the Bill was under preparation by Labour Ministers not so very long ago.
That does not mean that, while accepting the broad principles underpinning the Bill, we do not find much of the detail disappointing. Of course, we will seek to reflect that disappointment in a constructive way in Committee, in our amendments. The Bill, after all, was driven through the Commons with almost no concessions to our Front Bench team’s well argued criticisms and constructive amendments, and not all the Government’s arguments against those amendments were wholly convincing.
My noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis reminds us that the Bill also needs to be put in some context. Of course, I welcome it, as one of the first positive signs from the department of constructive work on the aviation industry, after we have, for two years, seen the Government tread water in circumstances where the industry has been making its demands very clear.
Those demands, as the Minister indicated, are impressive and insistent, because this is an industry that expands and grows, of which we should be proud and solicitous to its needs. Yet, we still await the broader context in which to view this Bill in terms of the Government’s future aviation policy.
Usually when I make these points, the Minister treats me to a “not just yet” response that suggests I should bide my time. Today he did not even do that; I got nothing from him on when aviation policy will be made manifest. Perhaps when he winds up the debate he will have some words of solace for those of us who are still extremely anxious about what the Government may propose.
As the Minister said, the Bill sets out to modernise the regulatory framework for civil aviation. We endorse the broad thrust of the reforms to the economic regulation of airports and to the legislative framework of the Civil Aviation Authority. We support many of these changes, improvements and reforms. The Bill seeks to make the Civil Aviation Authority more effective and, as the Minister emphasised, more accountable. That is to be commended. We also support in broad terms the transfer to the CAA of certain aviation security functions from the Department for Transport. However, we have anxieties in this area. I am sure that they will be shared by noble Lords when we discuss them in detail, and may even be voiced today at Second Reading.
We also approve of the strengthening of the Secretary of State’s powers so that holidays sold by airlines—an increasing feature of the holiday trade—can be included in the ATOL scheme, with its greater consumer protection. Again, we have one or two questions that we will address in detail, but it is a most welcome development. We will seek to ensure that the Minister fulfils his claim that the Bill will put the consumer, the passenger and the user at the centre of arrangements for governing the industry.
However, the problem is that the Bill seeks to implement these changes in ways of which we are strongly critical. In particular, the Government’s backsliding on the policies necessary to moderate climate change is already evident in key areas of the economy, and aviation is no exception. The Bill gave an opportunity to the Government at least to show an earnest intention on these issues, but it is inadequate. We look forward to lively debates in Committee. The Bill weakens the terms of proposed environmental obligations and sends the wrong signals to the industry. There is no longer a clear duty on the Civil Aviation Authority in its crucial role of economic regulation to have regard to compliance in airports’ operations with environmental and planning law.
Airports are major economic activities. We address a lot of our attention to one of the world’s great airports that is by far the most significant one in the UK: London Heathrow. However, other airports are very significant economic enterprises in their areas, and there are consequences from their considerable economic activity. That is why environmental concerns about their operations have been well articulated by the public for many years, particularly in the case of Heathrow, which has the disadvantage of being our largest airport and yet located within the confines of the M25 in an area of very considerable population density. Yet the Bill limits the legislative pressure on the Civil Aviation Authority, and thus the airports, so that investment in improving environmental performance may be reduced. Our amendments in the Commons were rejected by the Government in Committee and on Report. When I say “the Government”, I mean the full coalition Government—the Liberal Democrats participated as fully in this rejection as the Conservatives —and the Minister, therefore, is bound to expect that he will be strongly challenged by us in Committee. We shall table amendments to impose a duty on the CAA to ensure that aviation plays its part in meeting the UK’s carbon reduction targets.
The Minister emphasised that improved passenger welfare is a very important objective in the Bill. We have only to cast our minds back to the suffering of stranded passengers in the winter of 2010-11 to recognise how little consideration was given to passengers at that time. We do not consider that the provisions in the Bill meet the necessary requirements and we shall seek to strengthen the obligations of the airports and the CAA. The House of Commons Select Committee on Transport expressed strong concerns about passenger welfare and we agree that the Bill should guarantee that airport licences will be so structured as to address fully key areas of passenger satisfaction, including baggage handling, which is problematic enough, and the even thornier issue of immigration. Recent Government proposals on strengthening immigration controls have significant implications for busy airports, as we have all found out in the past 12 months. We shall explore the transfer of responsibility for security from the department to the CAA. We are concerned that the proposals are motivated more by reducing departmental expenditure than efficiency in action. The House will be concerned about how effective are those proposals. The airlines, of course, are concerned about the likely costs of this transfer, and we are worried about reduced efficiency when highly qualified and experienced staff are subjected to major change in their employment conditions and the organisation for which they work. The morale of staff is an important issue so far as security is concerned and the Government must recognise that they cannot just flick a switch in this area and expect this particular light to come on readily. They must reassure us that they are approaching this issue with the greatest amount of care and consultation.
The House of Commons Select Committee on Transport also recommended that the CAA should be brought within the remit of the National Audit Office—after all, the Minister has expressed that the objective of the Bill is to make the CAA more accountable—but the Government in Committee and on Report in the Commons were singularly unconvincing in their arguments on the issue of this important financial control over an expanding CAA. We remain utterly unconvinced by their arguments. Of course, we shall have the opportunity of examining this important case in Committee.
The Bill affords us a significant opportunity to cause the Government to think again about the important changes to the role of the Civil Aviation Authority. Of course, we agree entirely that the Civil Aviation Authority was overdue for reform in a rapidly changing industry and that, in this changing environment, it is essential that it is fit for purpose. That is why so much preparatory work was done under the previous Administration. However, the Bill introduced by the Government—the Bill before the House today—has obvious departures from the thinking that was present in its early stages. We shall seek to harness the informed opinion available on all sides of this House to effect necessary changes.
Airports: Heathrow
Lord Davies of Oldham Excerpts(11 years, 11 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, we are not dithering about a third runway at Heathrow. Coalition policy is that there will not be a third runway at Heathrow.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, the Minister may or may not be dithering about Heathrow, but the Government have certainly dithered on the aviation Bill when environmental issues have cropped up in relation to airports. Will he take note of the fact that we will use the opportunities provided by the aviation Bill to examine thoroughly the Government’s position on these important environmental matters? I am very pleased today to see how many people, right across the House, are concerned.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I can assure the House that I shall listen very carefully to noble Lords’ input on the aviation Bill as it passes through the House.