Lord Rotherwick
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Civil Aviation Bill
Lord Rotherwick Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, this is a probing amendment with a proposed new clause because we could not think where else to put it in the Bill. It raises a very important topic, to which I hope the Minister will respond in his customary constructive fashion by assuring the Committee that the Government have thought through this issue and, in so far as the Bill can assist in tackling it, are already doing so—unless by some remarkable occurrence, and in the unlikely expectation, the Minister accepts my proposed new clause.
We have proposed this new clause in Amendment 69A in order to probe the Government and to have a debate about one of the most significant challenges facing the aviation industry in the future and the need for the CAA to play its part. It is clear that the whole concept of the Bill is to establish a new position for the CAA and to update the provisions governing it, but one of the great challenges for the aviation industry is obvious, and that is that the British Government have subscribed to very significant and challenging carbon targets for the years leading up to 2050. We believe that aviation emissions must be included in these targets. Aviation emissions are already subject to carbon caps as a result of being included in the EU emissions trading directive, but I want to broaden the debate to consider the obligations of the industry against the whole background of carbon emissions.
In order to reduce emissions in the industry and to serve the needs of businesses and members of the public who wish to fly it is clear that there needs to be innovation in the construction of aircraft, so that we can meet what we all appreciate is a very significant demand for air travel, which no Member of the Committee expects to reduce significantly in the future. We all know the hopes that are expressed about developments such as high-speed rail—that they will lead to a reduction in short-haul flying—but that may not do much more than mitigate the increase that is likely to occur as people, in due course, want to spend their income on travel.
As for the industry, even if high-speed rail plays a part in replacing short-haul flights, nothing can take the place of long and medium-range flights. Only aircraft can provide that kind of travel in the timescale needed. We are all aware that the vast majority of vessels that carry passengers do so without regard to time: they are predominately cruise ships used for leisure, so the time constraint is not so acute. It must be several decades since the last passenger went on a vessel over a long distance to conduct business, except for those exceptional people who will never fly. The way to get about over long distances, clearly, is by air and not by sea.
Of course, the aviation industry has a major future. Another great innovation which I am sure others will bring to the Minister’s attention, if I do not, is the increase in global communications, the sophistication of conference facilities and so on. It leads to the potential obviation of people having to travel for business if they can conduct it just as well through effective long-range communication. I have to say that I participated in one of the first such ventures, which consisted of a link between the United Kingdom, Japan and the United States. Whenever Japan could hear the United States it could not hear Britain; and whenever Britain could hear Japan it could not hear the United States. The United States did not succeed in hearing anybody. It was a difficult exercise but I am talking about several decades ago. We all know how sophisticated human communication can be now. One dimension of the financial anxieties that we all have is the extraordinary speed within which very complex, staggeringly high-value financial communications are effected in fractions of a second. But conferencing of that kind will always have its limitations and people will still need to travel for face-to-face meetings.
There is a challenge to the industry. If the demand is there and the industry is the only way of meeting that demand, it has to have severe targets to reduce carbon emissions, which must mean that new aircraft engine designs and fuels will play an increasingly important part. This might seem a long way from the CAA but it sits on the European Aviation Safety Agency and has a role to play in implementing UK policy on the performance of aircraft. I would not decry the innovations that are already being introduced. Thomsons Airways, for example, operated passenger flights using a B757 aircraft that was filled with a 50% blend of EASA-specification bio-derived jet fuel. It went from Birmingham to Lanzarotte in the Canary Isles and was satisfactory. The bio component was derived from waste cooking oil. Owing to differences in the manufacture and supply process of these fuels compared with normal refining production, care was required to ensure that the fuel delivered to the aircraft was traceable and fit for use. That was ensured in this trial. Further use of biofuel is planned by this airline as wider availability of bio-derived jet fuel permits. That flight was overseen by the CAA’s flight operations inspectorate.
Biofuels are only one option. There are also likely to be developments in the use of fuel cells and hybrid electric engines. The motorcar may have blazed an interesting trail—a reduced carbon trail, I hasten to add. The car industry has done that and aircraft engines may follow. On this important issue of the development of aircraft engines, I want the Minister to say that the Bill will ensure that the CAA will play its full role in innovation. We know the great emphasis that has been placed on quiet aircraft and are aware that heavier and bigger aircraft are quieter than lighter and smaller aircraft were in the past. This is an issue beyond quietness; it is about the whole future of the development of carbon emissions.
The CAA is also the economic regulator of NATS. It has already been proven that significant improvements can be made by air traffic control to increase the efficiency of the aviation sector. Innovations in technology can allow much more efficient flight paths to be taken and other improvements such as continuous rather than stepped descents. If we can use our airspace more intelligently through technological developments so that aircraft have continuous descent approaches, therefore using a much smoother glide path and much less fuel than with the traditional stepped approach, that will be of great benefit in reducing aircraft emissions. NATS has its role to play as well.
The Minister was kind enough, before we began the Bill, to give us the opportunity to meet several informed individuals, specialists, to tell us what possibilities exist in the area. I just want the Minister to confirm that the Bill guarantees that the CAA and NATS can play their full part in technological improvements so that we can still meet the demand for aviation and ensure that the industry has a thriving future while meeting the necessary carbon targets which the Minister has embraced. I beg to move.
Lord Rotherwick
I am rather seduced by the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Davies, which produces a duty to promote innovation. I very much welcome the brief from the director of airspace policy, Mark Swan, on innovation, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, on continuous climb, and so on. Of course, that falls far short of innovation in general and business aviation. You have only to compare the UK to the US to see that we are lagging far behind. We are only a small aviation sector in general and business aviation compared to America and we need a champion to push such things.
For example, we have very few global positioning satellite approaches. They rely on a satellite, not ground-based, last century technical devices that cost a lot to administer. The answer that we are given at the moment is that it is up to the airports to ask for them, but the truth is that it is very expensive to implement. America has a GPS approach for every airport. They are wonderful. You can have dog legs on them, which means that you can fly around communities, lowering the noise, and do all sorts of things. You can have an instrument approach from both ends of your airport, not just the published plate for an NDB on one end.
More than that, the technology is now available to have WAAS approaches—wide area augmentation systems. These are ground-based devices—I believe that there are two or three in America—that up the accuracy of the GPS signal and allow the approach to be made to the accuracy that we are used to with an ILS—an instrument landing system. Again, it does away with expensive ground-based technology. They are very important. Imagine when you fly into a third world country and rely on maintenance by that country of its instrument landing systems, you are sitting in your seat wondering whether that third world country can carry that out. There is no worry if you are using a satellite-based system run by the US.
I am seduced by the duty to promote innovation but at the same time, if this is implemented or written into the Bill, it should come with a caution: “with due regard to the cost to general and business aviation”. The example is the mode S transponder that was brought in recently, for which the lower end of the industry had great difficulty grasping the need. I believe that it was necessary; there were good examples like being able to fly abroad or into certain air spaces. The industry is now beginning to grasp that and take it on. The transponder was needed but was badly sold to the industry, and it cost each and every plane owner quite a lot of money to implement the new equipment. Once again, I thank the noble Lord for his amendment; I think it is a good one.
Lord Soley
I do not wish to delay the Committee for very long because my noble friend Lord Davies and the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, have covered a number of the points that I would otherwise have made.
We sometimes think, as the noble Lord has indicated, that this must always involve a cost of some sort to the airlines or other people on the sites. In fact, in the car industry there are some recent examples that might benefit the aviation industry. For example, we have a lower car tax rate, and indeed lower insurance policies, for cars that are fuel-efficient. That policy was brought in by the previous Government but is fully supported by this one. I am not sure that we could not have a policy, or that the CAA could not at least encourage one, where our modern, quieter and more fuel-efficient aircraft could have a different landing charge. Maybe that can already be done, I am not sure.
There are other examples of that type such as the ground operations that are carried out. A number of airports have now got around to doing things like bringing in more environmentally friendly ground operations generally, particularly regarding vehicles. They were a bit slow on the uptake but now they are doing that quite fast. There ought to be awareness of encouraging that—possibly even financially, as I have indicated. I am not talking about government subsidy per se but a recognition that there may be a benefit to bringing in a more efficient system. The examples that the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, has just given of being able to fly around the community might be enormously beneficial.
We ought to be quite creative in trying to find ways of encouraging the people who are operating from an airport to carry out their operations in a more environmentally friendly way. That is possible and we ought to look creatively not just at methods that might increase costs but at methods that might also decrease them for some of the operators.
Lord Rotherwick
Lord Rotherwick
My Lords, I remind the Committee of my past declared interests. Clause 102 amends the Regulatory Enforcement and Sanctions Act 2008. It amends Schedule 5 to that Act to add the CAA to the list of 27 designated regulators, and amends Schedule 7 to that same Act to add to the list of 45 regulatory provisions contained therein a 46th line regarding Sections 7, 61, 71, 71A and 86 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982. The effect of this is to bring each of those provisions of the Civil Aviation Act within the scope of the order-making powers of the Secretary of State, and the Welsh Ministers in Wales, under Section 36 of RESA. These are subordinated legislation-making powers. It must be assumed that the Government would not take the time of Parliament to vest powers in the Secretary of State that he had no immediate intention of exercising. However, the Bill gives us no clues as to what the effect of these powers may be, so what is it that lurks behind these powers?
Perhaps the Government’s Explanatory Notes to the Bill will lighten the darkness. Yet they do not. In respect of Clause 102, the notes merely say:
“Clause 102 amends Part 3 of RESA 2008 … to add the CAA to the list of designated regulators in Schedule 5 to that Act. This enables an order to be made so as to give the CAA access to a range of civil sanctions provided for by Part 3 of RESA 2008, which could be used in relation to the enforcement of breaches of civil aviation law. These sanctions would sit alongside the existing sanctions available to the CAA and would provide it with an alternative to relying on criminal prosecutions”.
All we have learnt so far is that these would be new sanctions and would sit alongside existing sanctions. If we infer that existing sanctions are inadequate, we must therefore assume that once these new sanctions are in place they will be used to secure some policy objective, presumably an improvement in compliance that cannot be secured through existing powers.
The exercise of new powers will clearly have an impact on those on whom they are exercised and will, presumably, bring a benefit that will exceed the cost of exercising those new powers. Let us look to the Government’s analysis of costs and benefits for this policy, identified in the impact assessment as “Policy Option 2b”. No luck there; it tells us that no monetised benefits have been quantified because they would flow from the implementation of the regulations, so the cost-benefit analysis will be done in support of the regulations. As to non-monetised benefits, page 88 of the document says that the main one,
“is the potential for increased compliance with certain areas of aviation regulation and therefore better protection of passengers and a more level playing field for businesses”.
It says nothing about general and business aviation, and one wonders what the implication will be on that. So we remain in the dark about what these powers are intended to achieve, the market or compliance failings that they are intended to address, the cost of introducing and exercising them and the impact that they might have on those to whom they will be applied. I refer explicitly to the GBA.
Again, we are left unenlightened. It is all very well for the cost-benefit analysis to hide behind the excuse that all will be made clear when regulations are brought forward—I am sure it will all be made clear when the person finds themselves in the dock, but there we are—but that is not good enough. If the powers are to be taken, there must be a reason; and if there is a reason, it should be made clear now so that Parliament can decide whether the powers are needed. No doubt others will scrutinise the impact of the extensions of the powers to include Sections 7, 71, 71A and 86 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982.
My concern, and that of the GBA sector, is about the effect on Section 61 of the Civil Aviation Act. Section 61 is a headline provision covering the Air Navigation Order, which is a huge and complex document of some 500 pages, detailing the thousands of legal requirements for technical and operational matters such as aircraft airworthiness, equipment to be carried, pilot and aircraft licensing, rules of the air and so on. When the Secretary of State exercises his powers under this clause, he will empower the CAA to issue fixed-penalty notices for the alleged breach of the ANO, in the same way as the DVLA does for alleged vehicle offences.
At present UK aviation, especially the GBA sector, operates in what is described as an open reporting safety culture. The vast majority of pilots, aircraft operators and engineers take their legal responsibilities for flight safety and airworthiness very seriously. For example, it is not uncommon to hear pilots telephoning the traffic control tower of an airport to confess and apologise where they believe they may have inadvertently infringed controlled airspace. We have a successful scheme for reporting a near miss, and another for voluntarily reporting general safety occurrences. This valuable safety culture might well be undone under the proposed regime, where it will be possible for the CAA to automatically issue fixed penalties in such cases, where at present it uses its powers of prosecution selectively to achieve a strategic safety outcome.
If the penalties were to be imposed as an administrative commonplace, without a full legal process, that would fundamentally change the relationship between the CAA and pilots, operators and service providers such as engineers, who would fear bias and the use of penalties as a revenue-raising exercise. Moreover, the introduction of fixed-penalty procedures, as against the present prosecution powers, would shift the burden of proof. The recipient of an unexpected penalty notice would be faced with the alternative of paying up, presumably at a reduced charge, which may be provided under Clause 102 if the CAA follows the parking-ticket process, or of challenging the ticket in the courts. By including Section 61 in Clause 102 of the Bill, we run the risk that our open reporting culture might be fatally damaged. This would work against the interests of increased flight safety.
The CAA has adequate penalties and powers of prosecution at its disposal, which it uses wisely and sparingly. No case has been made to the GBA community, and no consultation undertaken, where the evidence to back this change has been laid out. Indeed, we have not heard that the CAA has asked for these powers. Perhaps the Minister could say something about that.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I will be delighted to write to all Members of the Committee explaining the Government’s intent on that issue.
Lord Rotherwick
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his full reply. He went a long way to try to answer all my questions. He still did not answer the question about whether the CAA asked for this.
Lord Rotherwick
That helps a lot: I now know who to hold responsible. I must point out that within the limited scope of the Bill, which pays hardly even any lip service to general and business aviation, in the one area where we are mentioned, we find ourselves caught on the stick, the discipline area; there are no carrots around. I know that my noble friend is a very generous Minister and I hope that there will be some carrots, having had the stick first.
I am grateful that he will write to my noble friend Lord Trefgarne about the consultation. In past consultations, general and business aviation has not always been represented. I would be most grateful if my noble friend feels able to go as far as to say that that will be the case this time: that there will be general and business aviation members of the consultation and, most importantly, that we are not treated like commercial pilots. We do not earn our living from our licence, we are private pilots who do our best to abide by the rules.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I assure my noble friend that the GBA community will be included in any consultation.
Lord Rotherwick
My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister bending over backwards on all my questions. I will read everything with consideration and I hope that we might have the letter before Report stage, which, after all, will be at the end of the summer, in order to make a decision as to whether to come back to this issue again. In the light of that, though, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
The Countess of Mar
My Lords, I am pleased to see this clause in the Bill. Some years ago, research was conducted on airline pilots who had been exposed to organophosphates. I am sorry but I have a problem with my voice. It was impossible for the CAA to give any details whatever to the researchers and it caused huge difficulties. This will relieve that difficulty, so I am very pleased to see it.
Lord Rotherwick
My Lords, I have great sympathy with my noble friend Lord Trefgarne’s opposition to the clause. I would be very interested to hear what the Minister has to say because I think that my noble friend’s concerns are those of many similar pilots.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I would oppose my noble friend Lord Trefgarne’s intention. I believe that Clause 104 should remain part of the Bill. My noble friend said that his pilot’s licence was properly suspended for medical conditions. I currently have the same problem with my HGV licence because my blood pressure is too high—but the Summer Recess is coming soon.
My noble friend was concerned that it might be possible to identify a pilot’s condition because of those small cohorts. It is more likely that medical research would be into large cohorts, such as all pilots with condition X or all class 1 medical certificate holders. Should a smaller cohort be of interest, the data controller would normally look to seek consent first.
There are several reasons to keep the clause part of the Bill, by no means the least of which is that the Government are seeking to enact this change because it was recommended by your Lordships’ Select Committee on Science and Technology in 2007 and this is the first legislative opportunity that successive Governments have had to give effect to your Lordships’ recommendation.
I shall turn to the specific points raised by my noble friend so that I can give him the reassurance that he seeks. First, he has suggested to me—certainly in private; I cannot remember whether he has said this publicly—that the CAA may sell on medical records. I make it very clear that this is not the intention of the legislation and that the CAA has no plans to do this. There is also perhaps the prospect of the CAA requiring even more medical data from pilots and flight crew, because it might be useful for the purposes of later medical research. The CAA cannot ask for more medical information than it needs to consider an application for a medical certificate. The CAA has no intention or wish to ask for extra medical information and no mechanism under which to do so without obtaining individual informed consent. The CAA abides by the data protection principle of keeping the minimal data required for the purpose of medical fitness assessments. If an applicant were asked to provide medical information that appeared to have no relevance to their licence application, it could be expected that they would challenge the need for it.
Clause 104 does not provide the CAA with any further powers to collect medical information. Those powers are already there as part of the CAA’s licensing obligation under the Air Navigation Order. The CAA has no intention to expand the scope of the medical information that it requires of applicants, and this provision would not allow for that. The clause is there solely to permit the CAA to disclose the medical information that it already collects for medical research purposes, subject to the strict safeguards contained in Clause 104(3).
The Committee will note that the CAA does not set out to collect medical data but acquires such data from people wishing to be licensed as pilots, navigators and so on because it has to make a judgment on whether those people are medically fit enough to be licensed. We also think that making this change is a good thing to do. The Civil Aviation Authority receives medical information relating to flight crew and air traffic controllers in the course of its licensing functions. Clause 104 provides for the CAA to be able to disclose this medical information to medical researchers by amending Section 23 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982, subject to the strict safeguards included in the Bill. This information could be used for important medical research into the major functional and incapacitation risks to those individuals—for example, the risks of heart problems. We believe that an increased understanding of the main health risks may in turn lead to an improved understanding of the risk to public safety, which is vital in the aviation industry.
The types of important research envisaged here include the analysis of the electrocardiogram tracings of pilots over an extended period to determine whether small anomalies—that is, differences—seen in the tracings translate to heart problems later in their careers. Given the important benefits of this research, we consider that the provision represents a proportionate response to the legitimate aims pursued. I also remind the Committee that this proposal was supported in public consultation on the Bill, where the vast majority of respondents agreed with making anonymised medical data available for ethically approved research. It is of course vital that in doing this we include strong and effective safeguards to protect individuals’ privacy. The Government are committed to ensuring that medical research will not compromise the rights of individuals to have their confidential medical information protected. I have already answered one of my noble friend’s very good questions, which was about small cohorts.
Individuals’ rights under the Data Protection Act 1998 and Article 8 of the ECHR will be fully respected. The CAA will act as the data controller at all times. We have included strong safeguards in the clause to protect those individuals. First, medical information must be anonymised by the CAA before it is released to medical researchers. Secondly, the disclosure must be for medical research purposes approved by a research ethics committee. Thirdly, the CAA must consider that the research is likely to improve the understanding of health risks to those individuals required to provide medical information to them. Fourthly, the CAA must consider that it would be difficult or expensive to take the steps required by existing legislation to enable disclosure of all the information that is to be disclosed—for example, where the research cohort is particularly large. As the information disclosed by the CAA would be anonymised, any published research would also be in anonymous form. These cumulative safeguards will ensure the appropriate balance between enabling important medical research and protecting privacy rights. I therefore hope that my noble friend will feel able to withdraw his opposition to the clause standing part of the Bill.
Lord Berkeley
Could the Minister explain what Clause 105(5) means in practice? It refers to,
“power to apply certain provisions to Crown aircraft”.
The Minister will know that we debated transport to the Scilly Isles a week or two ago. I heard that Prince Charles visited there last week with great success. However, there was thick fog and the only plane that was allowed to fly was his. I hope that it was safe— I am sure that it was—but in terms of safety of navigation it is odd that only one plane was allowed to fly. Was everybody else banned or did they not have the right equipment? Maybe this is irrelevant to the clause but what is special about “Crown aircraft”?
Lord Rotherwick
It may help if I jump in. I suspect that planes landing in the Scilly Isles were under CAT—Civil Air Transport. In certain situations, a private plane can be landed under VFR when a public plane cannot under IFR. I only suggest that that might be the case
Earl Attlee
My Lords, if the aircraft was being operated under the terms of the Civil Aviation Act, it is a matter for the CAA to regulate and investigate. It is not a matter for me to comment on. If it was an aircraft of the Ministry of Defence, it is not covered by the Civil Aviation Act.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, I support Amendment 71, as moved by the noble Countess, Lady Mar, and I support her in regard to Amendment 72. I pay tribute to the phenomenal work that she has undertaken over an extended period on conditions associated with organophosphates. I regret that I cannot bring to this Committee the direct experience of flying that other noble colleagues have but, during my incarnation in another place, I have certainly had far too much experience of exposure to organophosphates in other walks of life. Some noble Lords may be aware of the work undertaken by Mrs Enfys Chapman, who was for a time a constituent of mine and had the need to dig into the tragic consequences of OP dips. I had constituents who were chronically affected by organophosphates: two sheep farmers who were almost certainly crippled by the effects of OP sheep dip. A relative of my wife was also afflicted.
For those reasons, I have no doubt whatever that those open to ill health caused by such substances in the course of their work must be protected by law. It is surely our responsibility to ensure that the law is stringent enough, and properly applied, that there is: adequate identification of these cases when they arise; that there is clarity with regard to who has the responsibility for following up; that a statistical analysis is undertaken; and that, where necessary, regulations are tightened to ensure that people in cabins and passengers in aircraft are not put in danger because of the effects of these substances.
I draw to the Committee’s attention some statistics that are relevant to air crew contamination. The noble Countess has referred to Susan Michaelis who, in a PhD thesis, undertook an extensive health survey of 146 UK BAE pilots. That snapshot showed that: 88% were aware of cabin air contamination; 63% reported symptoms consistent with cabin air contamination, some immediate and some long term; 44% reported immediate short-term effects consistent with cabin air contamination, representing flight safety hazards; and 32% reported medium to long-term effects, again consistent with air cabin contamination and representing a flight safety hazard. Thirteen per cent were chronically impaired and no longer able to fly, which was in fact higher than pilot medical statistics for disqualification globally for all reasons, not just those consistent with air cabin contamination. There is a strong temporal relationship between the adverse effects reported and the contaminated air environment. Those data are the most authoritative that we have and surely should be considered.
I hope that the Minister will accept the amendments but, at the very least, is he willing to accept those figures? If he does not accept them, is he in a position to gainsay the argument? If other figures exist, they should surely come to light. I hope that he can tell the Committee that his department has rigorously examined the evidence put forward by Susan Michaelis in her PhD thesis. At the very least, I hope that the Minister will set up some independent investigation into the reporting system of events that may have adverse health effects on those in aircraft cabins, and clarify who is responsible for applying the regulations. Will he undertake to review the statistical information available, from all sources, to ensure that this issue is most assuredly not swept under the carpet?
Lord Rotherwick
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Countess, Lady Mar, and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, on tabling the amendment. It is most important, and the compelling evidence that we have heard is evidence I have heard about for a long time and, indeed, read in books. If I am right, the aircraft referred to is the one that the royal flight uses and is mainly used for Ministers. If someone said to me that a Minister has faded or gone bonkers, the next question should be: how many times have they flown on the royal flight? We all get into the commercial aeroplanes that we are talking about, so this is something that affects us. Of the Cranfield test, it was suggested—alleged—to me that it was suspect because the aircraft that they had on test were ones given to them by the airlines, not picked at random but, it was alleged, safe aircraft given for tests. One of the unofficial research teams referred to in some books found that, of its swab tests on a range of aircraft, the majority had contamination when the swab tests came off seats.
We have all had the awareness when we come off a plane that we frequently travel on: “Gosh, I was tired on that flight. I’m not normally that tired”. That is a real problem. If the Minister does not accept the amendment, my only advice for noble Lords about planes that take their cabin air, their bleed air, off the engines, off the compressor, is to fly on a Boeing 787, the Dreamliner. It is the first aircraft that does not use the ghastly system that causes the problem; it uses a specialist air system totally independent of the engine.
I hope that the Government will come forward to address this elephant in the room; it affects us all when we go on aircraft.
Lord Empey
My Lords, I do not know whether the amendments before us will be the right vehicle, but they draw attention to a problem that definitely exists. As someone with a family member who is a commercial airline pilot, I am very conscious of the risks involved. It is often pointed out that pilots and air crew are at greater risk of receiving higher levels of radiation because they fly without any protection at very high levels for prolonged periods—indeed, throughout their working lives—and that that makes a difference. Here, there is undoubtedly a problem but the solution is not as immediately obvious. For instance, on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, about the Dreamliner and its new system, many of the huge fleets of existing aircraft have the basic bleed air system so this is not easy to resolve. Mention has been made of the BAe 146, which is a very nice aircraft to fly in and, in particular, to land in, but there have been incidents where aircraft have suffered a large ingress of vapour to the cabin, visible to the passengers. This is not a figment of someone’s imagination; it actually happens. Although it is true to say that pilots on flight decks generally have an independent air supply from that of the people in the main cabin, it is sourced from the same place.
The question is: do we need international action? Let us face it, there are a very small number of aircraft manufacturers in the world and probably an even smaller number of aircraft engine manufacturers. Basically, there needs to be international action by Governments to deal with this issue, whether through an action in this Bill, through action by the Government taken via international organisations or through discussions with the industry. As the Minister pointed out, we are still number two in the world on aerospace, which is a very important industry to this country. I would think that adequate information is bound to be available within the United Kingdom from the manufacturers of engines and aircraft or parts of aircraft generally, and I cannot see any reason why we cannot pursue this issue through that route.
We are in a worldwide competitive market, and no individual airline will be in a position to put its head above the parapet without putting itself out of business. Therefore, we need not only national or European action but international action to deal with this. I guess that we all fly in aircraft that are differently flagged. We could be in an American aircraft, a British aircraft or an aircraft from Abu Dhabi. This is an international issue that needs international action. I do not think that we will resolve it simply by domestic means alone, albeit that we can set an example, and I have no doubt that that is the purpose behind the amendments. I think that the proposers would accept, though, that this needs an international response.
I hope that the Minister will allude to that and say whether he would be prepared to undertake on behalf of the Government to contact our European partners and some of our major manufacturers. We have medical expertise in this country that should be able to identify the significance of the problem. I think that the noble Countess said that you will not find if you do not look, which is a very telling point. Yes, I do not want to see our industry crippled competitively against others but, at the same time, if long-term damage is done to pilots and other air crew as a result of this contamination, that is a matter where we as a Parliament have a duty of care to people in the community who work in that environment, just as the noble Countess identified those people who worked in our agricultural sector and were exposed to vast quantities of contamination.
I recall the time years ago when people said that Sellafield was not a threat in the Irish Sea. We were told that the levels of contamination were perfectly safe. The levels of what people think is safe are now about one-thousandth of what they were 30 years ago. We are all in territory where we know that something is not right but we are not necessarily sure of the solution. There are many examples where substances entering our systems can do long-term damage if people are exposed to them for long periods of time.
I have an open mind on whether this is the right route but I hope that the Minister, on behalf of the Government, at least will address the fundamental and underlying point behind the amendments.
Lord Rotherwick
“Automatic direction finding equipment
In paragraph 4 of Schedule 5 to the Air Navigation Order 2009, paragraph (a) of Scale F is repealed.”
Lord Rotherwick
My Lords, as an instrument-rated private pilot I have been aware for some time that the carriage of an obsolete radio navigation system is still mandated by the Air Navigation Order. Technology moves on: automatic direction-finding, or ADF, equipment was developed in the middle of the last century and in the last two decades has been overtaken by more modern satellite-based and computer-controlled systems, such as GPS. Indeed, it is possible to purchase wristwatches with better navigational functions than those provided by ADF.
I have to revalidate my IR rating once a year, and to do this I fly in a plane with steam-driven instruments. I apologise to my noble friend Lord Trefgarne, whose plane had nothing but steam-driven instruments. Once a year, using this equipment I have to do an NDB.
The one thing that is interesting about an NDB, apart from the fact that it points roughly in the direction of the beacon that you are trying to track, is that in a thunderstorm it can be reliably trusted to point toward the thunderstorm and not the airport. It can do many other things. One will notice that at Oxford when landing on a one line procedure, as the plane crosses a railway track prior to landing, the needle of the NDB will deviate towards the train running across the track if one is so lucky as to fly over it. In short, it is not a particularly reliable instrument but it has served well over many years. However, there are better systems now.
Ground-based non-directional beacons, NDBs, are rapidly disappearing in the United States. About 100 a year go out and there are virtually none left. The associated automatic direction finding, ADF, equipment, mounted in an aircraft remains a legal requirement for instrument flight in controlled airspace, although some limited exemptions are in place. That absurdity makes some flights in modern aircraft that are not fitted with ADF of dubious legality. It is a grey area, despite having absolutely no implications for the safe and expeditious conduct of those flights, or indeed finding the solution for the navigation.
Noble Lords will be as fearful as many owners and operators of light aircraft that when the Government’s Clause 102 comes in, the CAA may be issuing fixed penalty notices like confetti to those who breach the ANO requirement. I am therefore proposing a simple new clause to repeal the relevant requirement in the Air Navigation Order 2009. I have put this point to the Government in the past and while accepting their suggestions and issuing guidance suggesting alternative navigational aids that might be acceptable as alternatives, the legal requirement remains. I understand that primary legislation is required to bring about the change and put the question beyond doubt. Indeed, that was the real reason I am told that nothing has come forward to date. They have been waiting for primary legislation.
This is the first suitable legislative vehicle to present itself, so I move my new clause confident that it will find favour with my noble friend the Minister. I accept that my drafting may not be up to the requirements of parliamentary counsel and am very happy to take advice from my noble friend who may wish to table a more elegantly drafted new clause on Report. In the mean time, I beg to move.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I have some sympathy with my noble friend. He knows that very well. On the other hand, the regulations to which he refers and which he seeks to amend by virtue of this amendment are devised and overseen by considerable experts in this area. It would be a mistake to impose a requirement on the CAA by means of this amendment at this time. These matters should be left to the experts who are within the Civil Aviation Authority and the National Air Traffic Services. They are not all dinosaurs; they are very senior, distinguished, respectable and intelligent people. I am happy to leave it to them and I hope that my noble friend will feel so persuaded.
Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, just before my noble friend withdraws his amendment, perhaps I may point out that automatic direction finding equipment operating on the medium wave is very useful when it is not being used for navigational purposes—for example, for listening to the test match. The noble Lord may or may not use that in consideration.
Lord Rotherwick
I am very grateful for the kind words of my noble friend the Minister and for his offer, which of course I should like to take up. I do not think that there is more to be said than that. I also thank my noble friend Lord Trefgarne who seems to be a little concerned about my amendment. I hope that his noble Dove, which is now out at grass, and its wonderful array of steam driven instruments were being used for the right reason and that he was not listening to the test match as he was making an instrument approach. I know that he has not been in a cockpit for some time but if he would like to come and see a new cockpit, I would be delighted to take him along, although it might come as a shock. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.