European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Lord Empey Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting
Monday 20th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, last week in Committee I supported the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and others. It is only due to me being late getting to the office that my name is not on this amendment, but I support it nevertheless.

The Minister did his best in his letter. The only thing missing from it was a poetical quote; otherwise, he pretty well exhausted every lever at his disposal to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. I congratulate him on attempting to do it.

I have always felt, and have said to colleagues, that the key to what we are discussing today will evolve as we go through the rest of this year. The necessary parts of the negotiations will ensue, and we will see what happens. The Minister was kind enough to quote my widget example in his letter. It was merely to illustrate the enormous complexity and difficulties, and it does not immediately occur to me how we solve them. We spoke to the business community. Reference has been made to the letter that was sent to the Minister on 17 January. Not only is such a letter unprecedented, but I think it is worth mentioning who has signed it. It states:

“The amendments that have been laid down”—


those are the amendments we discussed in Committee—

“have the support of all the main political parties … and the broadest representation of the Northern Ireland business community. This level of common purpose and collaboration is unprecedented.”

It is.

“The intention of these amendments is not to seek subsidy or hand-out but, rather, to ensure that Northern Ireland businesses are supported and protected to continue to be able to trade unfettered, and with no additional costs”—


that is an important factor, because that goes directly to competitiveness—

“as full and valued members of the UK’s internal market.”

That was signed by the FSB, the CBI, the Dairy Council, the Freight Transport Association, Hospitality Ulster, the Institute of Directors, Manufacturing NI, the Mineral Products Association Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Chamber of Commerce and Industry, the Northern Ireland Food and Drink Association, the Northern Ireland Meat Exporters Association, the Northern Ireland Retail Consortium, Retail NI and the Ulster Farmers’ Union. To get all those bodies to sign anything with all the political parties is quite an achievement. The Minister must be very proud of what he has achieved in provoking that. But we are not simply politicking here; we are trying to speak on behalf of an entire community.

References have been made to the new Executive and how they should be engaged. We warmly welcome the fact that they are in place and, one hopes, will be able to speak on behalf of the community and get our message across. Many of us have been extremely worried over the past few years, because during these negotiations the people of Northern Ireland have effectively had no one to represent them. That has been a huge tragedy, and a lot of the mistakes that have been made have, in part, been linked to that. Despite repeated requests, there was little or no significant impact from Northern Ireland’s voice, because it was not at the table, where it was needed.

I hope that when the Minister replies he will understand that and understand the competitiveness issues involved. He has to acknowledge that, as we sit here today, there are not on the table the practical solutions that will allow unfettered access. Our anxiety is that those solutions may not be there and that in a year’s time “unfettered” will become “fettered”—that there will be differences, competitiveness issues and costs. I sincerely hope that the Minister is able to square the circle when he concludes this debate. I support the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, support the amendments. Having spoken in support of the principle last week, I shall be brief.

It is fair to say that this and the previous group of amendments are based fundamentally on a problem of trust with the Government. The Minister has given us detailed assurances as far as he is able, but the words of the Northern Ireland protocol and the assurances given by the Prime Minister do not seem to square with the facts. Understandably, therefore, it is difficult for people in business to feel comfortable that “unfettered access” means what it says. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, has indicated that there is a question over that. For example, being based in Northern Ireland, you may well have access to the Great Britain market but you may still have to fill in a customs declaration. That is a fetter and a tie, and it involves a cost. There is also the issue of at-risk goods, which may or may not cross other borders and will perhaps have to be separated out. That will involve an administrative cost and will be a problem. The Minister is fully aware that businesses in Northern Ireland—many of them small, as has been said—are facing Northern Ireland being half in and half out of both unions: half in and half out of the UK, and half in and half out of the EU. If anything is a recipe for confusion, that is it.

The point that the noble Baroness’s amendment makes is, given that in reality it looks as though there will be rules and regulations that change and that will have implications, what is required is a guarantee that businesses in Northern Ireland will be compensated or covered for that so that they will not be worse off. Many of us see a real intellectual challenge as to whether that is even practically achievable within the proposed framework. The Minister is not allowed to accept amendments to demonstrate good faith. He writes extremely detailed and genuinely constructive letters but they are not law, and that leaves us in this rather uncertain scenario.

To be absolutely blunt—I think that the Chancellor’s interview with the Financial Times last week made this clear—the hardliners are in charge. What is being practised is a hard Brexit and Northern Ireland is almost like a nut in a nutcracker. Many people feel that Northern Ireland is not the Government’s top priority in “getting Brexit done”: there is a worry that it is expendable.

The Minister needs to understand that behind these amendments is a genuine concern—even a fear—that all the assurances being given will be very difficult to square with the realities of the Brexit we will get, in terms of both how we withdraw and the future agreement. There needs to be a real and positive recognition that Northern Ireland cannot be left to be squeezed in between all that. If the United Kingdom means anything and if the commitments mean anything, Northern Ireland deserves those assurances, which is why these amendments have been tabled.

Northern Ireland Executive Formation

Lord Empey Excerpts

Thursday 16th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My noble friend is right to raise this issue. He will recall, as I am sure other noble Lords will, that the legislation we took forward before Christmas was taken forward by this House and this Government. It was not dependent on the outcome of a new Executive. As a consequence, it will continue to the timetable that we set. I believe—again, I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Hain, for his work on this—that the compensation for victims should be in place no later than May this year. That is something to be welcomed by all in the newly reformed Executive, I hope.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, I say as one who participated in the establishment of these institutions that they should never have been collapsed in the first place, but I am glad to see them returned.

However, I draw the House’s attention to the part of the Statement that says that this deal was accepted by the main parties

“as a basis to re-enter devolved Government.”

That is not true. This is not an agreement. It is a government Statement and a Statement of the British and Irish Governments collectively. It was shoved into our hands at 8.30 pm last Thursday. We had never seen a number of the matters contained in it before. Our participation in the Executive is based exclusively on our rights under the Northern Ireland Act 1998, whereby our position in the Assembly is related to our electoral support. We have taken on the health portfolio, which I have drawn to the House’s attention on many occasions because it is in such a terrible state. I hope that we will succeed in that endeavour but I want to make it clear that, for instance, we have never seen the legacy proposals and this business of 100 days before—and we do not accept the legacy proposals. We never have. We have argued against them since Stormont House in 2014.

However, there are many good things in the Government’s Statement. There is potential. But do not create the impression that everybody accepts everything that is in this paper—we do not. It would be unfortunate if we clouded people’s thinking into believing that that is the case.

Nevertheless, we are there because we want to solve the problems that I and others have brought to the House’s attention time and again, such as the disgraceful state of affairs in our health service and many of our other public services. We will play as positive a role as possible but we will not be tied down to a Statement by two Governments containing provisions of which we had no knowledge and over which we had no say.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

In many respects, the noble Lord echoes the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong: this is at a delicate stage and we have to see how it will grow into a new, fully fledged, functioning Executive addressing each of these matters. I am pleased in one respect, in the light of the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that the health portfolio is now held by his party. I suspect that the incoming Minister, Robin Swann, will be getting letters from his friend, the noble Lord, which he can look forward to as much as I did.

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Lord Empey Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard continued) & Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 14th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Eames (CB)]

My Lords, I have added my name to those proposing these amendments. There must be times when your Lordships’ House feels, “Northern Ireland comes again with a special pleading for special treatment”; were I to come from elsewhere in the United Kingdom, I would have great sympathy with that view. On this occasion I want simply to put two realities to this debate and appeal to the Minister, who has often, if not always, listened with sympathy to the voices from Northern Ireland.

The first reality is that the business community of Northern Ireland has been suffocated by the uncertainty over the Brexit debate, which has been the result as much of its geographical position as of political factors. That uncertainty is now manifested in the debate we had earlier today on the protocol. We are left wondering as a community what unseen consequences could come from the sort of debates that will take place on future trade agreements once we leave the European Union.

The second reality is what I call the reality of reassurance. That reassurance can come only when we listen on the one hand to the repeated assurances of the Prime Minister that we will leave Europe as a United Kingdom. If that is followed up, I beg to suggest that the reality we face from the uncertainty surrounding the business community in Northern Ireland is that, when we leave as a United Kingdom, there will definitely be problems unique to Northern Ireland. If he can assure those of us who support these amendments that the Government will at least listen and not just give us trite phrases or slogans to live with, and that very definite attention will be given to the particular sensitivities of doing business in Northern Ireland post Brexit, many of our fears will be answered.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, I will speak to this group of amendments, so forensically and comprehensively addressed by the noble Lord, Lord Hain. The underlying problem that many of us have with it is the following. I served as a Trade Minister for a number of years, and I was able to set up InterTradeIreland, the body designed to promote trade between north and south, and which still exists. It has not been as successful as I would have liked; nevertheless, there is still huge potential there to grow trade. However, our problem is what we are told, not only by the Prime Minister but by the Government more generally, as against our experience with the reality of doing business across boundaries and between different economic units.

Whether we like it or not, from 2 October of last year, when the Prime Minister produced the first phase of his proposals with the European Union, it was obvious that Northern Ireland would be in a different regulatory environment, and once that was conceded, the customs environment was added to it. While there are reassuring words and undertakings, people like me and the businesses that have been referred to cannot just reconcile the aspiration to have free movement without any inhibitions or difficulties and the practical realities of being engaged between the European Union single market and an economy no longer in the single market. We are therefore in this kind of hybrid, of which there is no current example that I am aware of, and where there is the potential, as time passes, for the gap to grow.

We start off the negotiations early next month in the transition period with exactly the same regulatory environment that we have all become used to—there are no differences. That distinguishes the United Kingdom in its negotiation with the European Union from other examples, whether Canada, Mercosur or whatever. We have exactly the same regulatory environment as the rest of the European Union. However, the Prime Minister and others have said that they see things changing over time. The single market, which was invented by this country, is a noble idea, but to retain the integrity of that single market, the consumer protection requirements and standards must be verified in some way.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

In response to that, of course it will be our exclusive view in that negotiation to determine our own position as we respond to that. Again, it rests with us to try to move that in the direction in which we wish it to go.

Again, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hain, for being so candid; I welcome that candour, as I always have. In winding up, I say that we need to be able to send the message to Northern Ireland that, through this process, there will be a deep dialogue with each of the affected parties and we will not place any prescriptive elements that will impact on their ability to determine the future that rests before them in terms of how their businesses will work. They need to have very frank discussions with the Government and ensure that, through each stage in that negotiation, there is transparency so that nobody is left behind or surprised, and the reality remains transparent for all to appreciate. I do not believe that it will be straightforward. It is important to emphasise that the protocol itself sets out very clear decisions, but there are still decisions which must be taken by the joint committee of the UK and the EU and which will have to be worked through as we go forward. There is no point in my trying to pretend that that will not be a challenging position.

The important thing to stress is that we are guided by certain principles that rest on the question of unfettered access. I was struck by the word “unfettered”; it is almost a Victorian term. Where did the notion of “unfettered” come from? What on earth is a fetter? It is a shackle, a thing that is linked around your ankles to stop you escaping. We are looking for a situation in which trade can continue in the customs area that the UK sits within, but which also recognises a democratic element in Northern Ireland, to ensure that it is content with the way this matter progresses in the Province of Ulster, and that businesses are content, too. With the newfound Assembly and Executive, this situation will ensure that Northern Ireland has a voice to register this content or discontent and that there is at no point a democratic deficit in Northern Ireland over what the protocol seeks to deliver or, ultimately, what Northern Ireland wants for itself. That will be important as a very strong check on where we go next.

[Lord Empey]

I apologise for interrupting the Minister. The Joint Committee has the capacity to widen the scope of its activities and what matters may be included. That disturbs a number of us, because what we see today could change. I do not think that any of us particularly want to get involved in votes, if that is avoidable. In consulting his colleagues over the next few days, will the Minister see whether some expression could be included which would effectively reassure people? A lot of the angst that we all feel would then dissipate. The last thing we want is to have any confrontations between the Houses, but this is heavy-duty stuff. The ability of the Joint Committee to expand its areas of operation and what is included, and not included, is a very big step over which we would have no veto or control. That is driving a lot of the uncertainty which we all feel here tonight.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

As always, the noble Lord brings an interesting perspective to this. I appreciate the fear that the Joint Committee may extend beyond its rails and somehow move into different areas. Within that Joint Committee is the United Kingdom itself, and the purpose there is to hold to account the United Kingdom as it seeks to engage directly with the wider EU. I note underlying that, however, the more important point: the question of reassurance. I hope that the words I can use will give some reassurance today. Equally, I think we will come back to this matter next week when the House will demand of me further reassurance. It is important that I am able to put clearly before this House, and as it echoes beyond this House into Northern Ireland, these reassurances: it has not been overlooked; the newly established Executive will have a strong voice in what goes on, going forward; and the business community can expect to be significantly engaged with each element of the question of unfettered access, to make sure that this is in no way an attempt by the Government to hoodwink either the people or the businesses of Northern Ireland.

If I may conclude, the important point is that I believe we are in common agreement that unfettered access is required. We have the assurance of the Prime Minister and we ultimately have—

Historical Institutional Abuse (Northern Ireland) Bill [HL]

Lord Empey Excerpts

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 31st October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, I associate myself with my noble friend Lord Hain and indicate that the Opposition entirely agree with the Government on this Bill. It was, after all, a government Bill—the very first introduced in the House of Lords. We will do nothing at all to obstruct its passage either in this House or in the other place. To the contrary, we wish the Minister and his colleagues well in trying to get this legislation on to the statute book before the general election, because there are literally hundreds of people in Northern Ireland waiting on the Government’s decision on this matter.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, I understand and agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, has said. Perhaps the Minister could get across to his colleagues and the business managers in the other place the degree of anguish that would be caused by a failure to deliver this legislation, given that everybody in both Houses and in every party, both here and in Northern Ireland, supports it—a situation that is very rare. Such a failure cannot be explained away. We know that there is time next week—there will be two sitting days in the other place—and I cannot imagine that it is not possible to achieve this. I urge the Minister to make that point strongly to the Government.

Given the nature of the victims of this abuse and given that inquiries are also taking place in England, it behoves us all to show an example—to show that we are serious about it and that we intend to alleviate the suffering. I think that people would find it inconceivable that we would be incapable of delivering this legislation.

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, I endorse what has been said without repeating the multiplicity of words. It will not be understood if this Bill does not reach the statute book. It is incredible that here we have something that unites everyone, yet we now find that we are struggling to get it to its last point. That will not be understood at all, and I find it incredible that we are even questioning whether that might arise.

Northern Ireland Budget Bill

Lord Empey Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 31st October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, there is no question that this process is any substitute for proper scrutiny. In normal circumstances, this budget would have gone to departmental committees of Stormont, it would have been scrutinised, and Assembly Members would have made decisions based on their priorities and what they felt was in the best interests of their constituents. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, has just said, there is no alternative to dealing with it in this way today. However, a number of things need to be highlighted.

First, on the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, both today and yesterday, I can say to him that, after the proceedings here I took myself down to the other place. It was clear, during a Statement made by the Leader of the other place to the Commons, that Members were getting information from the Front Bench that was out of date; it had been superseded by the proceedings in here that had not been transmitted to the Members there. There was overwhelming support in the other place for dealing with the Bill. I got the impression that the Leader of the House had listened to Members there and that perhaps something could be done. If it is not done, it will be the greatest kick in the teeth that this Parliament could possibly deliver to a group of victims. I sincerely hope that we will be able to dispatch the Bill later today and get it down to the other place for its deliberations.

My noble friend Lord Lexden raised a number of issues in his contribution. It goes back to the debate earlier this year when we were looking at the question of the RHI and the scheme that was to be in place. The Minister will be aware that I moved amendments, which I withdrew only on the basis of the undertakings that he gave to the House at that stage. That centred around the report and the scheme that was to be put in place to provide compensation for those who had in good faith availed themselves of the scheme but found themselves penalised effectively at the end of the process by having made economic decisions based on an anticipated income. They had sought loans from banks to do other things on the basis of that, and then discovered that their whole economic and business plans were completely frustrated when the scheme was arbitrarily changed part-way through.

The Minister will also have to be aware that similar schemes have now been introduced in the Republic of Ireland, and the scheme has gone on here in Britain unabated.

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I remind the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that he has a very authoritative voice on this subject, but he is effectively speaking in a gap which we have created for him, so perhaps he could draw his remarks to a swift conclusion.

[Lord Empey]

I will just say to the Minister, regarding the mitigation that was raised, that I put an amendment into the Act which required a report to be made by 1 December. Given that Parliament will not be sitting on 1 December, can the Minister tell us when that report will be published and what effect the gap of the election will have in regard to the process of ensuring that those mitigation measures are put in place? Otherwise, very significant hardship will be inflicted on many thousands of people. I would be grateful if the Minister could do that in his response.

Northern Ireland (Extension of Period for Executive Formation) (No. 2) Regulations 2019

Lord Empey Excerpts

Thursday 31st October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, since my name has been mentioned, although not in the usual derogatory way, I shall speak briefly. I do not think any party is more enthusiastic than mine about the restoration of the Northern Ireland Assembly. I have read what the Secretary of State said: that there are a few minor issues that need resolution. That begs the question: if they are so minor, why are they not resolved? We have been here so often. It gives me no pleasure to stand here and say these things; that is not where I am politically and it is not where my party is on this issue. We want to be in there, not only because we have a responsibility to be there but to deliver for the people of Northern Ireland. Whatever these one or two minor issues might be—I say clearly that we have not heard about them yet—let us hear what they are and have a resolution. Unfortunately, it will not happen before the election.

The noble Lord, Lord Bruce, is right: the parties will be challenged, and rightly so, about why we have not got a Northern Ireland Assembly up and functioning. I suspect I will be involved in some way in the election, and I am happy to take that on the chin and give an explanation of why we are where we are. I will do it with some regret.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, feels deprived because he has not been addressed in a derogatory fashion. We can easily fix that, if he feels the need.

I must say to the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, that I have heard the phrase “minor matters” before. I do not think they are minor because the headline issue is not the issue. RHI was a disaster but I accept and agree that it was not “the” issue. There were underlying issues that cannot easily be put into a Civil Service box that we can tick. There are relationship issues; there is the bigger picture of Brexit; there is the political situation in the Republic of Ireland, where some parties have a role to play; and there is the whole prospect of having to take difficult economic decisions, which will not necessarily be popular with certain elements of the parties’ supporters. Therefore, I do not think it correct to say that there are only a few issues left—believe me, parties in Northern Ireland can manufacture issues. If we could turn that into an economic engine, we would be a very wealthy part of the country, because there would be no difficulty whatever in finding more issues on which to have grievances.

On paper, that is how it looks from the outside, but I suspect that it would not be the actual position when push came to shove. That is why I have continuously argued in this place that the process being used is the wrong one. We have been here before. Sometimes effort is needed to tease out the real issues that lie behind the headline ones. I think the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, knows what I am getting at and agrees. This question has come up several times today, whether on the subject of health or something else, but I think we shall have to start differentiating between issues where people’s lives are at stake—and potentially being lost—and those where people’s quality of life is permanently altered through non-action by agencies of the state.

I am a long-term devolutionist. I believe in it and have supported and worked for it, so I am in no rush to see powers brought back here. However, I would argue that there is an emergency when people’s lives are being threatened and affected dramatically. This Parliament has a role to play in that and a responsibility to take it seriously. Obviously, when we come back, the issue will still have to be addressed. Whether it will be possible to get an agreement to establish an Assembly by 13 January, I do not know. I hope it will be but I suspect it will not, and we will then be faced with the dilemma of whether to continue with the existing arrangements, via an election, and see whether it can be kick-started again. However, I maintain that, in parallel with that, we will still have to address the fact that there are issues—in particular, on health—that require action, and the people cannot keep waiting.

We have discussed money. There have been increases but everybody knows that inflation in the health service is far higher than inflation in the general economy, and that is the trap that we have been in. There is no ability to plan the workforce, and that is a contributory factor because we have only 12-month budget cycles. The point that was made about the Barnett consequentials was a very good one. Technically, if money is given to health here, Northern Ireland gets a Barnett consequential, but that does not mean that it is spent on health. That decision is taken by the Executive, who might distribute it to different departments. The Civil Service is confronted with the same dilemma. That a Minister of the Crown has to stand up here and tell the House that he, as a Minister of the Crown, cannot instruct a civil servant just illustrates the impossibility and hopelessness of the position that we find ourselves in.

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, we, of course, support this statutory instrument and, again, we support it reluctantly. This is the fourth occasion this week that Northern Ireland business has been discussed in this Chamber; this and, indeed, the last item to be discussed this afternoon, are all about the fact that there is no Government in Northern Ireland.

Looking at Scotland and Wales, which have their devolved Governments and assemblies, it is difficult to imagine what outcry there would be in the United Kingdom if democracy were suddenly to disappear from Edinburgh and Cardiff as it has from Belfast. We obviously cannot carry on like this, yet there is a chance—a window of about three or four weeks in January—when all this could change. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has said, it is not really about this or that issue, but more about a lack of confidence and trust between parties in Northern Ireland, and possibly between parties in government.

I agree that the general election could concentrate minds; the issue could itself become an election issue. Whether we can resolve it is another matter, but it will be discussed. Nothing will happen in relation to talks, because of the election and because of Christmas. I just hope that the parties will get together once the Christmas holiday is over, perhaps in a different way with some fresh thinking. As we have argued persistently from this side of the Chamber—it has been argued elsewhere as well—perhaps this could happen with an independent interlocutor; perhaps with a different sort of process; perhaps with the involvement of Prime Ministers, whoever they might be come the end of the year.

Something different has to happen, because we do not want a Minister to come to that Dispatch Box in January and say, “No, it hasn’t worked again”, which would mean that we would have to extend by another three months until Easter. That just cannot carry on. All of us in this place hope and pray that there will be success in those talks. In the meantime, we support the Government.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019: Section 3(5)

Lord Empey Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc.) Act 2019 almost overcomes the reality of where we are. The Government have said repeatedly that they have a process and that their number one priority is to restore the Executive. However, the reality is that there is no process. Ad hoc meetings take place at regular intervals with regular intensity, but there is no proper process. If it is left to this ad hocery, one obstacle after another will arise and we will never get anywhere. No pressure will be applied. It is always, “Oh, we can’t do it because of Brexit”, “We can’t do it because of this”, and “We can’t do it because of that”.

The Assembly met last Monday, but I have to say that it did not cover itself in glory. It was a most depressing, aggressive, nasty meeting and it is as well that the proceedings ended when they did and that there was no second attempt the following day because more harm would have been done had it persisted in the way that it was going.

Initially, I was opposed to the ideas put forward on both Benches opposite about some form of interlocutor being identified to assist the process, but the time has come to revisit that. But it needs to be done within a structure and I have to say to the Minister that his department has got itself into a rut over the last 10 to 15 years. We were told when the Minister came into the department three years ago that we were going to think outside the box. Well the box has proved to be much stronger and less able to be escaped from than we thought. We have not thought outside the box: we are still in a rut.

One of the reports that I asked to be included was on the mitigation of welfare reform. That report is due to be received on or before 1 December. However, if events in the other place, whether today or tomorrow, overtake that, will the Minister identify what will be done if we are in the middle of a general election before 1 December? Those mitigation measures would need to be addressed well in advance of the end of the financial year. I would be most grateful if he could help us in that direction.

I have secured a small Private Member’s Bill on health. The objective is very simple. Out of a population of 1.8 million, apart from there being over 280,000 people waiting for a first appointment with a consultant, of those 280,000 people, 109,000 are waiting in excess of 12 months. The Nuffield Trust and Professor Deirdre Heenan produced a report a few weeks ago. The chances of an individual being on a waiting list for over a year in Northern Ireland for a first appointment with a consultant is one in 16. There is a one in 16 chance of being on a waiting list for over a year in Northern Ireland. The equivalent figure in England is one in 48,000, so you are 3,000 times more likely to be on a waiting list for over a year in Northern Ireland than in England.

As a Parliament, we have an obligation to protect our citizens which supersedes parties and all issues. I believe that we are allowing citizens to be harmed by the failure to resolve this particular issue. A number of noble Lords in this House know more about medicine, both physical and mental, than I do, but the one thing that any citizen knows is that delay can be fatal—literally. People are waiting, even for some basic operations, for three or four years, and that is to say nothing of the mental health issues that we have.

I appeal to the Minister to think outside the box and persuade his right honourable friend in the other place that, on humanitarian grounds—not political grounds—we need to get a Minister involved in health. That requires the power to be taken back here. It would instantaneously go back to Stormont on the formation of the Executive, so there is nothing to be lost. I know that a Minister will not solve the problems overnight, but we cannot have any manpower planning when we are working on a hand-to-mouth budget. That has to be done over time. We are thousands of nurses and hundreds of consultants short. All of these problems can in part be assisted by having somebody there to take decisions, but we cannot leave this at it stands to a Permanent Secretary, however capable—and we are fortunate that we have a capable Permanent Secretary in that department.

I appeal to the Minister to ensure that he and his colleagues revisit this issue not only about getting proper talks in a structured format but also to look at the damage that has been done to the population by some of the health statistics that I have drawn noble Lords’ attention to.

Historical Institutional Abuse (Northern Ireland) Bill [HL]

Lord Empey Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 28th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that I have been a frequent critic of Northern Ireland legislation coming to this House under accelerated passage, given that, in some cases, we knew a year in advance that it needed to be done at a particular time. However, like other speakers, I believe that there is an opportunity here not only for the use of that process, but to ensure, as pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Hain, who is not in his place, that this legislation does not get caught up in any possible wash-up or changed and therefore lost. Our minds must be focused on the victims and their families, who would be dealt a cruel card if, having come to this stage, it was all snatched away again at the very last minute. I hope that, using the usual channels, it will be possible for the Minister and his right honourable friend in the other place to ensure that this legislation is dealt with. I believe that is the wish of the House and I am certain that it is the wish of all the political parties in Northern Ireland, and in this House.

Sadly, Sir Tony died earlier this year and has not seen the rollout of his recommendations. That is a shame but, to support the point just made by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, I have absolutely no doubt about the role of some the institutions that were involved and the need for them to take some responsibility. They and their insurers should not be allowed simply to get away in the smoke with the taxpayer taking up all the liability. I believe that the Minister and the Secretary of State have got that message.

It is sad that Stormont is not in a position to deal with this, but there we are. Parliament now has a responsibility to fill the vacuum and ensure that this is done. There are very few occasions when there is unanimity at home in Northern Ireland. Indeed, by the look of things around here, there is very little opportunity for unanimity here as well. However, the fact remains that this is an opportunity for that to happen. Let us make it happen and do something for the victims. Let them feel that they have been heard at last, and that the system is for once working for them, not against them. I support the Second Reading of the Bill.

Irish Border: Checks and Customs Arrangements

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Tuesday 1st October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord raises a point that we must be very clear in answering. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has been very clear: there will be no infrastructure, no checks and no controls at the border, and we will be in full conformity with our obligations under the law. With regard to the comments that have been floating around today regarding the dialogue with the EU, it will be easier to have a proper discussion on this issue when those documents are in the public domain, as they will be, to facilitate that very discussion and the interrogation by the Members of this House.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, we are having a debate tomorrow on the European Union. Not only do we not have a non-paper; we do not have any paper. It is very difficult to negotiate, suggest or judge if you have absolutely nothing in front of you. I appeal to the Minister to implore his colleagues that if we have a general debate tomorrow, at some point immediately thereafter—whether next week or whenever—we actually put down proposals in black and white that this House can debate and, hopefully, share with the other place. We are running around in circles and arguing over language, one thing is contradicting the other, and this merely adds to and builds up the uncertainty that is so corrosive to not only our economic but our political existence.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, it is important to stress that this House is not itself negotiating: the UK Government are negotiating with the EU. It is important in that negotiation itself to respect the conditions of the negotiation. Equally, it will be vital for this House and the other place to fully examine that which emerges from those negotiations, as it is right and proper to do.

Report Pursuant to Sections 3(1), 3(6), 3(7), 3(8), 3(9) and 3(10) the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019

Lord Empey Excerpts

Monday 9th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, if we needed any evidence of the importance of the arrival of the noble Lord, Lord Caine, in a position in which he can address your Lordships and turn his mind, in a public way, to our important issues, the speech that has just been delivered confirms what I believe many of us have long believed—his ability and knowledge of a wide range of subjects. Someone coming to these Benches with his many years of experience in Northern Ireland is a wonderful asset that we will warmly welcome across all these Benches and on all sides. The role of adviser is very important and he has not only given us commitment but done so with discretion, with dignity and without turning the focus on to himself rather than the Ministers he has been privileged to serve.

Just to illustrate my point, there is a small quotation in today’s Sun—if it is here it must be true—attributed to Mr Dominic Cummings of this parish, where he says, allegedly:

“I don’t care if Northern Ireland falls into the f***ing sea”.


The melodic prose of that comment lends some credibility to the possibility that he might have said something like it, but no such comments were ever or will ever be made by the noble Lord, Lord Caine, who has conducted his business and kept relations with all sides in our troubled Province. Having a strongly committed unionist on these Benches is most welcome. I wish him every success in your Lordships’ House and have little doubt that he will distinguish himself now that he is able and free to talk.

Turning to the business on the Order Paper, there is one small matter on which I would like clarification from the Minister, which was also mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Caine: the definition of a victim. Neither that report nor the one relating to the Armed Forces covenant appears to be mentioned on the Order Paper. I am not quite clear why.

We have just touched on the Executive formation. I said that if my dates were inaccurate I would happily correct them; yes, it was probably 5 August instead of 5 July, but it is the same difference, because the talks have not had the momentum required.

On donations, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Barker. I have come to the conclusion that there is not a consensus in Northern Ireland on the dates for these donations. I believe that the 2014 date should be applied and made that comment when the legislation was going through in the summer.

As a former Higher Education Minister in Northern Ireland I am very conscious of the potential, having visited the Magee campus of Ulster University in Londonderry and with the city deals coming forward for that local authority area. Given the shortages in our health service, there is also great potential, particularly concerning the proposed graduate medical school, to combine a number of policies and not leave things purely to the universities. I accept that universities are independent, but only in so far as it is the public who in large measure pay for them. There is a huge social, economic and political issue here and we should pursue it rigorously.

On the issue of the abortion law review, I am conscious that on Friday there were huge demonstrations in Belfast which had very little time to get organised and build momentum. I know that a lot of people are very concerned at the haphazard way in which this has been done. There are no regulations in place on 22 October, no matter what anybody says. While people will argue, “Well, the medical profession will do this and that”, why should we have to rely on them? We are a legislature. If we have something to say, we should say it and do it, instead of this back-to-front process that has been adopted, which, I have to say, has annoyed and deeply upset many very sincere people. I hope we will return to that and that we will be able to get in place something in law that is just, proper and democratically endorsed by the people it affects most. That has been sadly lacking.

I remain strongly opposed to the proposals on legacy that came out of Stormont House. The proposal for a historical investigations unit will be a torture chamber, particularly for former members of the security services, for at least a decade and will enable republicans to set up a whole industry of people who will take legal action, make claims and try to rewrite history in the process. It is a profoundly bad idea and I sincerely hope that those who invented and support it will withdraw their support.

On historical institutional abuse, I strongly support the fact that people are trying hard to get this done, but, as we have pointed out in this House many times before, people have been moving on in age and it is becoming an increasing challenge. I hope that every effort will be made to move as fast as possible.

The report on the definition of a victim, which is not mentioned on the Order Paper today, does not even cover two sides of paper. On such an important issue, this is almost an insult to Parliament. It is so critical and so controversial, and to say that handing the thing back over to the Executive is the way forward is absolute nonsense—it is only a way of avoiding it. That is what I fear is happening and I deeply regret it.

In conclusion I will address the victims’ pensions, which were mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Hain. Can the Minister give an absolutely categorical assurance to the House tonight that under no circumstances will a person who was injured by their own hand and their own actions be eligible for any payment from the state as a result of this activity? That has got the reappointed victims commissioner into serious trouble and has caused victims great distress over what has happened to them. I sincerely hope that we get a clear, unambiguous confirmation tonight that this will not happen. Whenever you see in a report mentions of working parties and looking at other examples around the world, it begins to make people nervous. I sincerely hope that the Minister can give us an assurance that does lack not any clarity whatever.