Outcome of the EU Referendum

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his comments but I am afraid the situation we are in is very clear. The British people have made their decision, and we are not going to seek to do anything other than implement it.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I gently point out that this is an unelected House and that the people have spoken. Instead of identifying threats, we should cheer up and identify the huge opportunities that are now available for Britain outside the European Union. I welcome the Prime Minister’s Statement and, in particular, the express promise to work with the devolved Administrations. In meetings with the First Minister of Scotland, can it be gently pointed out to her that she campaigned across the United Kingdom on a question that was decided by the United Kingdom? There was no Scottish question on the ballot paper; it was a United Kingdom question. As such, she and everyone in the United Kingdom should now do everything they can to advance Britain’s interests and not undermine them by seeking to do side deals in Brussels, which will make it more difficult for us to get the best deal for the whole of the United Kingdom.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is right that this decision applies to the United Kingdom as a whole. I very much note the points that he makes but, as I have already stressed, in our involvement with the devolved Parliament and Assemblies we will seek to make sure that the outcome benefits everybody in all parts of the United Kingdom. We will engage in a way that is not just constructive but very positive, because that will be in the interests of the Scottish people.

EU Referendum: Voter Registration

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 12th May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen]

I understand where the noble Baroness is coming from, but there are lots of debates going on encouraging people to register and there will be debates on television and on the radio—I heard one this morning on Radio 4—so obviously that is a way of getting people to know what is going on.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Can my noble friend confirm—

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I think the House had already resolved that it was the turn of my noble friend Lord Forsyth.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Can my noble friend confirm that there are in fact 33 countries participating in the Erasmus programme and only 28 countries in the European Union?

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen]

I am afraid that I will have to write to my noble friend.

House of Lords Appointments Commission

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 21st April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I, too, very much care about the reputation of this House and that the public maintain their confidence in it. The best way for us to assure that is in the way we make our contributions to this House’s work. It is worth making a couple of points in response to the noble Baroness’s point about size and the number of appointments. Since 2010, nearly 150 Peers have left your Lordships’ House through retirement or, sadly, having passed away. Forty-four of those have been since the general election. We have to continue to refresh and renew our membership. It is an important part of our being effective as a House. On the noble Baroness’s point about appointments by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, 22% of the appointments he has made have been to the Labour Benches.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, could my noble friend explain why, when the Appointments Commission considers appointments of Cross-Bench Peers, it is required to look at issues not only of propriety, but suitability—do they have the time and necessary skills—but in the case of party appointments it is allowed to look only at propriety, not suitability? Should we not amend the terms of the Appointments Commission so that, while the political parties can still put forward names, the commission finds out whether they are prepared to give the time and have the necessary skills and experience to make a contribution to this House?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

It is very important that all Peers make a proper contribution to this House in a way that enables us to give the public confidence in the laws that Parliament makes. However, it is absolutely appropriate and proper that the party leaders are responsible for ensuring that those they nominate will make their contribution effectively, and that they are held to account for that. The process and service that HOLAC provides is important. When it makes recommendations, no Prime Minister, whether this one or any before him, has ever ignored that commission’s advice.

Student Loans: Muslim Students

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 3rd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

This proposed scheme has nothing to do with sharia law. It is about ensuring that all young people have access to university. We are very keen to try to ensure that we can provide a product that will help them to do so.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend explain exactly how this product will work?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am happy to. The takaful model will operate as a type of mutual fund. Students will apply for finance from the fund the same way that they would apply for an equivalent student loan and will enter a contract promising to repay a contribution. When they are earning above the repayment threshold, as with an equivalent student loan, they will make their contributions, which will be used to fund the education of future students. It is a type of mutual fund, which is why BIS cannot introduce it without primary legislation, as the Secretary of State does not have those powers.

European Union: United Kingdom Renegotiation

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 4th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I agree with the noble Lord’s analysis. When we get to the campaigning stage, it will be important to help people to understand that there are most definitely alternative models, but that they come with costs and disadvantages that people will need to be aware of if those are the routes they want to pursue.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the fact that our Prime Minister has had to spend months going all round Europe to secure a minor change to our benefit legislation indicates just how far we have lost the ability to determine our own affairs, which should be at the heart of the referendum campaign? Does she agree with Sir Stephen Nickell, from the Office for Budget Responsibility, that even the plan to stop access to in-work benefits would have “limited impact”? How far does she expect that plan to enable the Government to meet their target of reducing overall immigration to the tens of thousands from a net figure of 380,000? What is the Government’s estimate of the reduction in immigration that will be achieved by that benefit change?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The first thing I would say to my noble friend is that the Prime Minister has spent several months in Europe, negotiating a new deal for Britain. Some of the changes we have already made to welfare benefits and how they apply to people coming from European Union countries do not require any involvement of the European Union, so much so that we have got on and put them in place. Since the election, any European Union citizen coming to this country and who seeks a job will not be able to claim jobseeker’s allowance. If, after six months, they have not found a job, they will be required to leave. These are two of the four commitments that the Prime Minister made in our manifesto.

The other changes covered by the draft proposal set out in the documents address the remaining issues by introducing a sense of fairness that people in this country feel is needed. They are about ensuring that people are not able to take out before they have put in. My noble friend mentioned evidence that was given by Sir Stephen Nickell of the OBR about the effect on immigration. The value of these welfare payments to an average family is about £6,000, so people coming to this country get £6,000 immediately. This is quite a strong incentive for some. While I might not be able to provide a figure from this Dispatch Box today as to how many might be affected if this were no longer available, I am sure it would affect some people.

Strathclyde Review

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Wednesday 13th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, at this hour even I can think of very few original things to say, but I congratulate my noble friend Lord Strathclyde on an excellent report, which provides a basis for going forward. I suggest to the Prime Minister that he invites him to take over from Sir John Chilcot, in order to finish Sir John’s report. I apologise that I had to leave the Chamber for a meeting and missed the maiden speech by the noble Lord, Lord Darling. I look forward to reading it. We all owe him a great debt, especially now that oil prices are down to $32 a barrel in Scotland, and I look forward to seeing his contributions.

Let us be frank about this: it is unfortunate that we are having to discuss this in the context of the tax credits regulations of 26 October. That was not the Government’s finest hour—let us be fair about that. I tried on several occasions through Ministers to get information on the impact of the regulations on families, who would lose and how much would they lose, and in the end I had to rely on the Institute for Fiscal Studies. The consequences, had those regulations been implemented, would have been disastrous for many vulnerable families up and down the country, and I certainly did not come into politics to do that, and nor, I believe, did the Chancellor or many of the MPs who voted for them. The facts of the matter were that the stushie in this place drew people’s attention to how savage and immediate the impact would be and to the consequences for the poorest families and for the Conservative Party and the Government because the political consequences would have been very severe. I therefore say to the noble Baronesses, Lady Manzoor, Lady Meacher and Lady Hollis, thank you so much for what you have done to help the Conservative Party in the country.

I would have supported the Motion moved by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwark. Indeed, my noble friend the Leader of the House almost invited us to do so, if you look at column 979 of Hansard for 26 October. That would not have been a fatal Motion, but nor were other Motions, other than that moved by the Liberal party, fatal Motions.

My noble friend the Leader advised us that if we voted for those Motions,

“It would have the practical effect of preventing the implementation of a policy that will deliver £4.4 billion of savings to the Exchequer next year—a central plank of the Government’s fiscal policy as well as its welfare policy. It is a step that would challenge the primacy of the other place on financial matters”.—[Official Report, 26/10/15; col. 979.]

Actually, the impact was to make the Government think again. No one in this House suggested that the policy should not be implemented. The argument was that it should be phased in over a period of time, but the Chancellor chose to abandon it altogether.

I am not sure whether I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, for starting to quote things that I have said in her speeches, but I did indeed say that if the Motion moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, had not been passed by the House, the tax credit changes would immediately have become law and the Government would not have had an opportunity to think again and make the necessary changes. Indeed, the key point is that if the Chancellor really felt that the primacy of the House of Commons had been challenged, it was up to him to table exactly the same Motion again the following day. He could have done that. He chose not to do so because, as my noble friend pointed out, she had been to see him and had told him of the feelings in the party and in the House and he had undertaken to think about it again. That is what I thought we all came here to do. I thought that is why we are all here at this hour of the night—to try to encourage the Government to think again if they have got it wrong.

The response from those around the Prime Minister and from the Prime Minister himself was a tad ungrateful. It was as if the captain of a ship which had been driven on to the rocks by the first mate after being safely rescued responded by inviting his crew to begin scuttling the lifeboat. That was the effect. It may have been unwise to vote for the Motion moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, which was not fatal, but it was certainly not out of order. As has been pointed out by a number of people in the course of this debate, the report of the Joint Committee on Conventions, which was approved by both Houses of Parliament, makes the position crystal clear.

The effect of our intervention was to give the Commons time to see the impact of their proposals, and I do not believe—perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, can help me—that had the Chancellor of the Exchequer brought the proposal back a second time this House would have rejected it for a second time.

So what is the problem that we are trying to solve here? In his report, my noble friend Lord Strathclyde points out that there were two Motions on SIs on consecutive days. Just because two buses come along at once does not mean to say that you have to change the entire bus route. The second Motion was defeated; it failed because your Lordships chose to vote accordingly. It is true that on very rare occasions the House has voted against SI Motions but, according to my noble friend’s own report, there have been 55 occasions when the House has refused to vote through Motions of that kind, so those five have to be seen in that context.

I accept of course, that something has to be done about the use of statutory instruments and secondary legislation, and option 3 probably has within it the means of a way forward. What I do not accept is that this should be done by primary legislation. The conduct of Parliament is a matter for Parliament, not the Executive. The Executive is accountable to Parliament, not the other way round. I believe that we need to have a Joint Committee to review those procedures and agree them. The joy of my noble friend’s report is that it illustrates how wide the context is in which this needs to be looked at in terms of the Standing Orders of both Houses.

I say to my noble friend the Leader of the House that despite Mr Corbyn’s best efforts, we will be in opposition one day. My noble friend Lord Strathclyde says in his foreword that the Lords must,

“complement the work of the Commons and not … block its will—too often”.

We have never blocked the will of the House of Commons. He says:

“It would be regrettable if the Lords simply became a highly politicised ‘House of Opposition’”.

Quite so, but it would be equally regrettable if the Executive were to drift towards treating Parliament as an irritating inconvenience and limited its ability to ask the Government to think again.

House of Lords: Strathclyde Review

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 3rd December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

They did, my Lords. My noble friend is looking at them while consulting widely—both Members of the other place as well as here. When he reaches his conclusions, I am confident that we will have an opportunity to consider them carefully and decide next steps at that time.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that, had this House passed the secondary legislation on tax credits, it would have had the immediate force of law and prevented the Chancellor of the Exchequer abandoning his proposals in his Autumn Statement?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend raises an interesting point. It is interesting because it allows me to say two things. It demonstrates what this House did: it withheld its approval from a Motion that had already been voted on three times and decided in the other House. The key thing about the review that my noble friend is doing is not what the views of this House were but how it decided to express them and the route by which it chose to do so.

Devolution: England

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, it is the turn of the Conservative Benches. I think it is worth me alerting the Labour Benches to the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, is trying to get in as well.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, could my noble friend explain the implications for public services in England and expenditure of the Smith commission proposals for a no-detriment principle?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend will not be surprised if I cannot answer that question.

House of Lords: Government Review

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Wednesday 28th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, on Monday this House withheld its approval from a financial measure—that is what happened. The measure had been approved three times by the other place. That has never happened before. Monday was a significant day for this House and the events on Monday justify the review. It is a government review about how elected Governments can secure their business when an established convention has been put in doubt. The noble Baroness made reference to a constitutional convention. What the Government have done by asking my noble friend to lead this review is to simply look at the issues arising from the events on Monday. It is limited and it is focused. My noble friend will have at his disposal a panel of experts and, as he said himself today, he will talk to other political parties. Ultimately, we are trying to ensure that elected Governments can be confident that they can secure their business, when that business has had the support of the elected other place.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend ask my noble friend Lord Strathclyde to extend the scope of his review to include the procedures of the House of Commons, so that the House of Commons is properly able to scrutinise business? A particular issue is the use of the automatic guillotine, which results in large tracts of legislation coming to this House which have not even been considered by the House of Commons. This was a manifesto commitment, in the election before last, of the Conservative Party.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I would much rather that my noble friend concentrated on the very serious issue arising from the unprecedented step taken on Monday by your Lordships’ House. It is a significant issue and we need to look at it and concentrate on it. We must do so swiftly and get ourselves back on to an even keel.

House of Lords: Appointments

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 22nd October 2015 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will require the appointments commission to vet political nominations to the House of Lords using the same criteria as currently applied to crossbench Peers and thus consider suitability as well as propriety.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, the House of Lords Appointments Commission was established to make recommendations for non-party peerages, using an established set of criteria, and to vet all those nominated as life Peers for propriety. It remains for the leaders of political parties to account for their nominations.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Why?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I like my noble friend’s style this morning. Because it is for the leaders of political parties to come forward with their own nominations, mindful of the needs of this House, and to ensure that the people they put forward will make a contribution to this House and that this House will perform its responsibilities effectively. But it is not appropriate for the House of Lords Appointments Commission to look at the suitability of those nominations. We should not underestimate the role of the House of Lords Appointments Commission in looking at propriety. One of the things it considers is past conduct of nominees and it would certainly look at whether there was anything there that might bring the House of Lords into disrepute. So its role in this matter is actually quite extensive.