Burma

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 18th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they plan to promote democracy and human rights in Burma, following the release of Aung San Suu Kyi.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

The Prime Minister spoke to Aung San Suu Kyi on 15 November, making clear our determination to support her efforts to promote democracy and national reconciliation. We will continue to work with our international partners and in UN bodies to press for progress. We will maintain pressure on the regime following Burma’s recent sham elections and continue to highlight its appalling human rights abuses, including the continued incarceration of more than 2,200 political prisoners.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that positive and welcome reply. I am sure that the whole House will wish to pay tribute to this brave and remarkable woman whom I had the good fortune to know as an undergraduate studying PPE at Oxford 45 years ago. Can I ask the Minister a little more about setting aside the results of the elections and pressing the Burmese authorities to hold fresh elections to ensure that the National League for Democracy can play a full part and that Aung San Suu Kyi can be leader of that party in those elections? What pressure can our Government and others place on governments in the region who have been somewhat supportive of the Burmese junta until now?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

We all share the noble Lord’s absolutely correct assessment of our sentiments. We salute this very brave woman and want the world that he described to come about, with her at the centre of it. The situation is delicate in that how investigations into these sham elections can be made is still obviously in the minds of Aung San Suu Kyi and her party. I believe that she has authorised her party to look at irregularities, but we must be guided by her approach as she is in the midst of it while we are on the sidelines.

As to the other countries that have somewhat ambiguous relations with Burma and who have not been as strongly critical as we would like against this unpleasant regime—India is the obvious example—we are in discussions with them. I am not sure that we will make much progress with Beijing which seemed to welcome the elections and thought they were okay, so there is not much progress there. Other countries are united in recognising that this was not a serious election. It was rigged and there was all sorts of evidence of irregularities. The day will come, if we can keep up this pressure, when Burma can again join the comity of nations and be a prosperous, free and open place.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, in the days before her telephone was cut off I used to be able to speak to Aung San Suu Kyi on the phone but that has not been possible for the past 10 years. Does the Minister agree that we should couple tributes to her with tributes to her late husband, Michael Aris, because when he was dying of cancer they refused him a visa to visit her, in the hope that she would leave and not come back? They were a remarkable couple, dedicating their lives to the furtherance of democracy. Will he press on regarding the question of the release of the other 2,000 political prisoners?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Most definitely yes to all those observations. We salute not only this remarkable lady and her husband, but the way in which she now comments on what must have been the appalling experience of her imprisonment over the years. As she rightly says in a remarkable interview in the Times today, revolution takes place in the mind, and her mind is a wonderful mind to be playing on this situation.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, if, after 15 years and 20 days, Aung San Suu Kyi’s release is to be a Mandela moment for Burma, will it not require the ethnic minorities and the National League for Democracy to enter into real dialogue and reconciliation with the military junta? Will it not require their reciprocity, and must we not do all we can, through the United Nations, engaging the Secretary-General directly in these negotiations, to bring that about? Can the Minister say something more about the ethnic minorities and their plight, given the information I gave him last week and the subsequent letter about the fighting in the Karen state and now the repatriation of those refugees across the border into an area where fighting is still under way?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

On the last point of the noble Lord, who follows these things very closely, we are worried about what has been happening on the border and the signs that the Royal Thai Government may have been returning refugees across the border back into Burma, or Myanmar. Our ambassador spoke to the Foreign Minister of Thailand this morning about the need to look at this situation and prevent undue suffering where these refugee pressures have been building up. As to the broader question of ethnic groups, we continually condemn the human rights abuses that ethnic groups continue to suffer. Our embassy in Rangoon regularly makes representations; we think that the elections were a missed opportunity to unite armed and non-armed ethnic groups, but I am afraid that we have to strike a pessimistic note in saying that there is little prospect of national reconciliation without their involvement and not much prospect while the generals are in charge. However, we will keep this matter very much to the fore, properly urged on by the noble Lord’s remarkably persistent concern.

[Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that now is not the time to consider weakening the EU sanctions against Burma, since nothing has fundamentally changed, as the Minister has said? Secondly, as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, said, we need to see clearly a UN-led effort to ensure that Aung San Suu Kyi gets what she wants, which is a dialogue between the genuine ethnic representatives, the military and democracy activists, such as those in the NLD. Thirdly, last week the Minister said that there was insufficient support for a commission of inquiry and therefore it was not something that the UK would press for. Will he give me an assurance that at the meeting on 22 November in the Security Council, when there will be a discussion on the protection of civilians, the UK Government will lead on this and press for a recognition that the UN special rapporteur on Burma has asked for such a commission of inquiry?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

As the noble Baroness knows, because she follows these things closely, we support the idea of a commission of inquiry, but we are anxious not to rush into it and have an early failure. We also note the view of Aung San Suu Kyi, who is slightly cautious about the pace of such an inquiry; but that there should be such an inquiry is, in principle, right and is, indeed, government policy. It is the pace and the approach that we have to watch. As for EU policy on sanctions, the EU has expressed its very serious concern about the elections and has made it clear that sanctions should be eased only in response to tangible progress, which we have not really seen yet. So there is an agreed EU position on Burma: the sanctions are tough and we are totally in support of them. On the noble Baroness’s middle point about the role of the UN, I will look further into it, but we are broadly in support of the activities that she mentioned. I shall elaborate on that in a letter to her.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

Does not the Minister agree that one thing that we could do is to increase our aid projects in Burma to non-governmental organisations and those who work for humanitarian purposes in medical and educational areas? That would be a good way to show that there is an alternative to the sort of regime that Burma has now.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I agree; indeed, the UK is one of the largest bilateral donors to Burma. We have significantly increased our humanitarian assistance from £9 million in 2007-08 to £28 million in the current year. Our aid focuses on health, basic education, rural livelihood, civil society and helping the refugees. I add as a personal observation that China is deeply involved in Myanmar, getting more involved all the time, pouring in vast sums of money for schools, infrastructure, and so on. We have a real problem considering aid—which is right—against the apparent determination of the People's Republic of China to have a massive involvement in Myanmar in every conceivable way.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I am very pleased to hear about the Prime Minister's call; that is something to be very well regarded. Can the Minister tell us whether other EU leaders have made similar calls to Aung San Suu Kyi? Can he also tell us whether there is now an EU resolve to re-engage with the ASEAN countries? After all, they value the EU-ASEAN relationship very highly, and were the countries of the European Union really to make a push on that at the moment, there might be a realistic possibility of getting more positive engagement.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I certainly hope that that will be so. It obviously makes complete sense that the EU must be extremely vigorous in such an approach. As to who has been making telephone calls to Aung San Suu Kyi, I have absolutely no idea; but I bet people have.

Council of Europe

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 18th November 2010 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That this House takes note of the work of the Council of Europe.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, we are now entering what I understand is to be a relatively short debate and I thought, as that is so, that it would be right to limit my opening remarks on the work and activities of the Council of Europe to a few key points and give maximum time to the discussion itself. I shall then cover as much as I can in the wind-up at the end.

I want to make one general observation, which is simply that the Government regard the Council of Europe in its work as making a major contribution to the stability and peace of Europe. We are proud of its provenance, the part played by our nation in its history and evolution and its qualities as a supremely effective international organisation.

I want to make one more preliminary observation and I do so with some hesitation. The Council of Europe is much misunderstood, although not by your Lordships, or those who are active and have played a leading part in it, of course. However, many outside the House and maybe some in another place as well confuse the Council of Europe with the Council of the European Union. I have heard comments in which some even seem to assume that the Council of Europe is part of the European Union. I hope that your Lordships will forgive me if I feel that I should put on the record the truth of the matter, which is that the two organisations are completely separate and serve very different purposes. The European Union is concerned with the economic and social progress of all its member states, but for over 60 years the Council of Europe has existed to promote and protect human rights, the rule of law and democracy across the whole European land.

The United Kingdom will assume the chairmanship of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe and therefore, in effect, of the Council of Europe next November—about this time next year. It is a little too early to set out what the United Kingdom chairmanship’s specific priorities and objectives will be, but I thought that it might be useful to share with your Lordships some thoughts on what, at this stage, we think the chairmanship objectives are likely to take into account. This divides into three areas.

The first area is budgetary considerations. We are looking to push down the costs of the Council of Europe, to make efficiency savings where possible and to ensure that work undertaken by the organisation is essential and relevant. Negotiations are well advanced towards agreement on a Council of Europe budget for 2011. We believe that the outcome may be a small net reduction in the total that the United Kingdom pays, relative to 2010. My honourable friend the Minister for Europe, Mr Lidington, has told the Secretary-General that the United Kingdom will be pushing for an overall reduction in the Council of Europe budget for 2012.

The second area is reform of the European Court of Human Rights, which is, of course, a central part of Council of Europe activities. The court serves a valuable purpose, but it is essential that it be reformed. It is overburdened and weighed down by a staggering backlog of over 140,000 cases. This cannot carry on. We will fully support and seek to advance the court reform process, which came out of the high-level conference at Interlaken in February 2010. We are also considering ways in which we might make the court more nimble in its operation in both the consideration and the judgment of cases brought before it.

Thirdly, the organisation and its work must continue to focus on what it does best: it must continue to protect and promote human rights, the rule of law and democracy in Europe. Therefore, the organisation’s work must reflect and contribute to these areas of strength and expertise. We oppose the Council of Europe straying into other areas of work for which other international organisations are better equipped. We also intend to maintain pressure on fellow member states to sign up and adhere to legally binding conventions and agreements to further safeguard Council of Europe standards and values in their country.

Europe is a better place for the Council of Europe and its work and those who dedicate so much time and effort to it, including Members of this House. It was born of the ashes of the Second World War and the defeat of the ghastly spectre of fascism. It has grown and flourished in an ever changing Europe. It has absorbed and welcomed into its midst almost all European countries, including those that lived under communism for many decades. By and large, it has indeed realised Winston Churchill’s dream.

I am delighted to have the opportunity to say those words about this apparently effective international organisation. Its work contributes greatly to the promotion of UK foreign policy objectives. A peaceful, stable Europe promotes security, international trade and safer travel abroad for all its citizens. I commend the Council of Europe and its work and I greatly look forward to your Lordships offering their views on its experience, needs and possibilities for the future. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, this has been an illuminating debate. I think that that is the right adjective, as it has brought out so many fascinating aspects and dimensions of the work of the Council of Europe and its various committees in ways that are not widely appreciated. I fully agree with those who made that point. I have listened to an enormous range of points and questions, some of them very big questions. I shall try to answer as many of them as I can, but I fear that I will not succeed in answering all of them. Nevertheless, I will do my best. I am particularly grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, for her final remarks, which seemed to me to be extremely profound and well aimed, about the role of the Council of Europe and the endless search to uphold human rights in all their aspects—women's rights, and so on—in the modern world, where these things are always in danger and one cannot rest; one has to keep eternal vigilance.

We started the debate with a splendidly wide-ranging and powerful speech by the former Deputy Prime Minister and fairly new attendant in your Lordships' House, whom we are very glad to see, the noble Lord, Lord Prescott. I start with a small question first, which is an easy one to answer. I will get on to the much bigger and immensely important issues that he also raised. He asked me about the Max Mosley case: will the UK contest the case brought to the European Court of Human Rights by Max Mosley? Answer: yes. A hearing is scheduled for January and it is inappropriate to comment further. That is about the best I can do on that. I promise to try to do rather better on the much bigger issues that the noble Lord raised.

The noble Lord then raised an issue that has been something of a theme throughout the whole debate, which is where the Council of Europe fits in with the activities of the EU in setting up the Fundamental Rights Agency. Several noble Lords asked whether it duplicates the work of the Council of Europe.

The proper answer is that the objectives of the two bodies are different. The Fundamental Rights Agency is indeed well funded. I hope that it is attending to the necessary degrees of economy and austerity that everyone else throughout Europe and everyone throughout this kingdom is attending to; none of us can stand back from that need for economy and efficiency. The FRA assists the European Union institutions in implementing EU law and the member states with fundamental rights issues arising within EU law. That is what it does; that is its remit. The Council of Europe is the primary source for and interpreter of European human rights standards. In a sense, the FRA is intended to fill a gap in monitoring fundamental rights issues arising from the implementation of community law. That is the difference of task, which is intended to avoid duplication between the agency and the Council of Europe. I suppose that the answer is that the work of the agency is intended to add to the work carried out by the Council of Europe, and we need to ensure, by monitoring these things, that it does so and complements it. I have here some examples of this complementarity, but I do not want to go into great detail at this stage because of timing factors.

The noble Lord, Lord Prescott, referred to the essential link between the need to establish durable and robust legal frameworks on a supranational scale and the central issue of climate agreements, and the work to prevent desperately destructive climate change, in which he of course has played a major role in past years. Just as he has played a major role in the Council of Europe in the past three years, he also played a major national role in our nation’s affairs in his previous incarnation. He asked whether it is possible for the Council of Europe to play its part in establishing the necessary legal framework, which we hope lies ahead, for tackling the global climate issue, and which Copenhagen—possibly too boldly—tried to leap towards and failed. He also asked whether we can have high hopes of Cancun.

Cancun has to be seen as a stepping stone towards that still important objective of a global legally binding agreement, but we must be realistic. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, was utterly realistic. If we can get a balanced package as a further step, a further paving stone, towards a global agreement on carbon emissions, that will be a triumph. But the difficulties are there. On the one hand, a great nation like the People’s Republic of China speaks of its ambitions for a low-carbon economy. Whole cities in China, the size of London and bigger, decide to go for low carbon—just like that. But at the same time, between now and 2035, China will triple the output of its electricity from burning coal, which is working in the opposite direction.

I hardly need to tell the noble Lord this because he knows these things. They create a conflict, a challenge, of an enormous size. I do not have an answer to his question as to whether the Council of Europe can establish or help establish a robust enough legal framework to contain these conflicting pressures. All I can say is that somewhere ahead lies this ambition. It remains the ambition of HMG, but we are realistic about how far we can advance towards that at Cancun. If we can get a balanced package, that is fine.

Turning from these very central issues on which I would be delighted to dilate at far greater length if we had the time—but they lie a little outside the immediate future for the Council of Europe—my noble friend Lord Dykes spoke eloquently about the Cyprus issue, which the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, also raised. We all hope that a proper respect for human rights and legal standards can play its part in ending the agonies of that divided island.

The noble Lord, Lord Dykes, also made some kind remarks about the theme which my colleagues have tried to bring into dissertations on foreign policy about the importance of human rights and responsibilities on the one hand, and economic growth and prosperity and expansion of our trade and our interests worldwide on the other. Of course, the two are two sides of the same coin. That is what we believe in Europe, where, without the work and underpinnings of the Council of Europe and the commitment to human rights, the economies of the Europe of trade and the Europe of industry and expansion would not really exist. The same applies to the Commonwealth of 54 nations, where it is being increasingly realised that the commitment to the core principles of human rights, rule of law and good governance are the other side of the coin of high investment and expanding trade. They all go together and if you try to separate them, disaster follows.

My noble friend Lord Dundee spoke comprehensively about the work of the Council of Europe and asked about its future role and activities on the Junker report, which proposed a joint Council of Europe/European Union legal and judicial system. The question is whether it did that. My briefing says, and I think this is right, that it did not call for a joint EU/CoE legal system but for a European judicial area, which means a Europe of common legal standards. That is relevant to the profound comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, which I shall come to in a moment. My noble friend also asked about the immediate priorities in the future work of the council. The working group of the Council of Europe on reform of the European Court of Human Rights is very important and has been mentioned by several noble Lords. That is an area where we need to make a real effort when we reach the point which, as the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, reminded us, lies ahead—that of the chairmanship of the Council of Europe beginning this time next year.

The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, returned to the theme of what the different bodies as between the EU and the Council of Europe do, and even hinted at whether there might be a case for bringing the two together. I think the answer to that is no. They are separate organisations with entirely separate missions. The Council of Europe performs a unique role in the promotion and protection of human rights, democracy and the rule of law, whereas membership of the EU is crucially dependent on meeting very precise economic criteria which not all states in the wider Europe are able or willing to meet. I do not see integration lying ahead either as one of the objectives or as one of the possibilities. However, he was right that a tidying-up is always required. The WEU is coming to the end of its active life and the whole European structure, including that of the European Union, is one that I have always viewed as a constantly evolving element. I have heard the phrase “a Europe of constant struggle”. None of us should ever be too ready to say, as some have been in the past, that we have reached the final pattern for Europe, that everything is fine and we have a settlement and order that will not change. Of course it will change because events will arise and the patterns of our institutions will have to adapt at the European level, as they have to at the national level, if we are to make sense of the future and manage it for ourselves and our children.

The noble Baroness, Lady Stern, rightly reminded us that what the Council of Europe did was help to bring all those satellite countries into democracy in the most effective way. She also mentioned the pressure to get rid of the death penalty throughout Europe except for Belarus, which I totally welcome, and the valuable work done on torture prevention. The really glittering point of history is the one we all lived through, which as a younger man, frankly, I never thought I would see in my lifetime. It was when all these nations, one after the other, emerged like figures in the Beethoven opera from their caves and caverns of imprisonment into freedom. It was an amazing time in all our lives, and bliss it was in that moment to be alive.

The noble Baroness asked whether we will support the Secretary-General in his tasks ahead. I want to say a bit more about this before I sit down, but the answer is most certainly yes. My noble friend Lord Sheikh returned to the Cyprus issue among many of the profound observations he made on the work of various committees. I have said a word about that already, and I am always willing to discuss it further with him and other colleagues.

The noble Lord, Lord Low, talked about the question of apparently cutting the budget of the Conference of INGOs, and rightly argued that of course it is the NGOs that create the substratum of civil society which actually glues our nations and societies, as well as the world, together. I do not want to bring in the Commonwealth too often, but it is an amazing amalgamation of non-governmental, civil society organisations that create an extraordinary network across the world, just as the non-governmental organisations of Europe create a network that is not necessarily visible to Governments or the focus of public debate, but is invaluable none the less. He was obviously concerned that if the budget was cut, that would undermine the work of NGOs particularly concerned with the rights and status of disabled people. I will ask my ministerial colleague to look into the matter, and I am advised that the Secretary-General is reviewing these issues, although final decisions have not been made. It is an important issue and I am glad that he raised it.

The noble Baroness, Lady Symons, asked a whole range of further questions in the time available, which allowed no time at all to get every one of them down on paper. She asked whether the Committee of Ministers—which, in effect, is the key committee of the Council of Europe—explains its decisions. I hope it does, I believe it does, it should do—and it should certainly be urged to do so. She touched on the slightly broader issue of the finances of the Foreign Office and mentioned a report in the Financial Times this morning. As I understand it, the real hit for the Foreign Office was when the foreign exchange deal was undermined and the Treasury pulled off a fast one, if I may put it like that, in persuading the Foreign and Commonwealth Office—I am afraid this was under the previous Government—to abandon its foreign exchange protection. That swiped 20 to 25 per cent straight off the Foreign Office budget—and that is what led to the first talk about pulling in horns and a 10 per cent reduction in personnel. We have had to adjust to that, as the Permanent Under-Secretary, a brilliant new addition to our team in the Foreign Office, rightly was trying to explain in the Financial Times this morning.

As to the comprehensive spending review, as I told the House on Thursday, its impact in addition to that nasty blow has been fairly limited, amounting to a flat cash settlement over the next four years, or a 2.5 per cent cut in real terms over four years. This has, in turn, been offset by moving the budget of the BBC World Service to the BBC proper, and some funds of a development nature have been made available, not from DfID but via the Treasury, which has certainly helped our budget. We believe we can deliver a highly efficient, leaner but very effective, foreign policy administration, a policy leading for all departments, with the still very considerable resources that we have at our disposal.

The noble Baroness asked about the figures for the Council of Europe’s budget. The immediate figure I have is that our contribution is €24.8 million for its running costs. A more general question was about where we stand on the purposes and activities of the Council of Europe. I said at the beginning, and I say again, that we believe very strongly that it should stick to its lathe, where it has brilliant mastery of its craftsman-like skills in promoting human rights, democracy and the values which bind our societies together.

The noble Baroness, Lady Symons, is right that the United Kingdom chairmanship of the Committee of Ministers beginning next year will present us with many challenges and opportunities. There will be a major opportunity for us to place our mark on the work and future direction of the organisation and I hope that we can do so. In my opening comments I said that the Council of Europe and its work are often misunderstood and several of your Lordships echoed that point. I hope—perhaps it is too ambitious a hope—that this debate has served a little to put to rest all this confusion about the work of the Council of Europe and the European Court of Human Rights on the one hand and the EU on the other; they are different organisations.

The Council of Europe, of course, cannot work in isolation; it must work alongside all the other international organisations in Europe. However, we remain vigilant that the Council of Europe sticks to what it does best—and does very well indeed—including the prevention of unnecessary overlap and duplication with the work and activities of other international organisations, and ensuring that work is carried out efficiently without wasting resources.

I said that I would come back to the work of the Secretary-General, who faces a delicate task. The noble Baroness, Lady Stern, asked whether we will support him. Yes, we will. Genuine reform will involve some difficult decisions on programmes and organisational structures and we will continue to support him fully in his efforts to reform the Council of Europe. A well run, well structured Council of Europe will offer maximum efficiency at minimum cost, and that will be to the advantage of the whole organisation, whose credibility rises along with its efficiency. Indeed, the opposite can be said: its credibility is damaged—as with all organisations—if it is seen to be inefficient. It will also be to the advantage of the foreign policy interests of this country to have the organisation working efficiently and effectively, as it will be to the interests of the UK taxpayer, who has the right to demand optimum value for money, particularly at the present time.

The debate has provided a fruitful exchange. Many of those working for the Council of Europe have been able to explain more of what they have done and what they believe should be done in the future. To them we are extremely grateful. We are also extremely grateful to the whole delegation, both your Lordships and those in the other place. The Council of Europe—unsung, in many ways, but quietly carrying forward and upholding the tenets, standards and requirements of a civilised society—is a fine institution. We support it and we want its work to prosper in the future.

Motion agreed.

Tajikistan

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 17th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Waverley]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I declare interests as serving on the advisory board of the Central Asia and South Caucasus Association at Asia House and as chairman of the British Tajikistan All-Party Parliamentary Group.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, we value our relationship with Tajikistan and welcome recent high-level exchanges with the Tajik Government. Our priorities are to encourage democratic and other reforms that will help to underpin stability in Tajikistan and the region. We also believe that there is benefit for both sides in working more closely on issues relating to Afghanistan. Parliamentary links form an important part of our efforts to strengthen the bilateral relationship and I pay tribute to the noble Lord for the work that he does to that end.

[Viscount Waverley]

I thank the Minister very much for that response. The willingness of the United Kingdom to engage more would be appreciated by Tajikistan and so deepen the bilateral relationship. I believe that there are multiple reasons for doing so. Is the Minister aware that they include fully understanding the culture of the Tajik ethnic north of Afghanistan, the potential for extremism to destabilise internally and so reach into central Asia, the fact that this is a major drug route with 1,500 kilometres of open border with Afghanistan and, finally, economic and other sector opportunities for mutual co-operation and benefit?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I thank the noble Viscount for his constructive question. I am aware of the points that he raises. He reminds your Lordships that there is a long border between Tajikistan and Afghanistan and that many Tajik people live in north Afghanistan and play a relevant, decisive and, we hope, fully helpful part in seeking to pacify that country and meet our priorities there. He makes valuable points. Also relevant are his references to the narcotics problem, some of the cross-border trade that has been going on and some of the difficulties with the Uzbek border of the country as well.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, the distinguished Speaker and leader of the Tajik delegation now in the UK under Inter-Parliamentary Union auspices tells me that the English language is now on a par with Russian in Tajik schools. However, DfID does not see this as a proper tool of development and empowerment of ordinary people; it is in effect given low priority because DfID thinks of the British Council as the main supplier. To what extent will the Government help the Tajik Government in respect of English language teaching in schools and universities and in the training of teachers of the English language?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, who reminds us that there is an important parliamentary delegation in this country led by the respected Speaker of the Tajik Parliament. I know that the noble Lord had the opportunity to meet and converse with this delegation. He raises valid points about language training. Language training does go on; indeed, part of our defence co-operation is that we assist with language training. He is certainly correct that this is a valuable part of the support for the future and something on which we must seek to build. There are obviously priorities for DfID to look at. Indeed, DfID is looking at recurrently reviewing the whole range of its support operations, almost around the world, including those in the Caucasus and in the region that we are discussing. That does not deny for a moment, however, that language training is one of the great exports and assets that we can contribute to peace and stability in the region, which I hope will continue to be the case.

[Lord Dykes]

Will the Minister say anything about the insecurities of some of the surrounding territories, with particular reference to the recent political disorders in Kyrgyzstan? For example, what is the position of the BBC World Service and the British mission in Kyrgyzstan?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Although the Question is not about Kyrgyzstan, which is to the north of Tajikistan, the noble Lord is certainly right that the regional issues all impinge on one another. We are still concerned about the terrible violence that went on in Kyrgyzstan back in the summer and we very much hope that the political process can now be reinforced and that a coalition can be built to bring stability to the area. I do not have at my fingertips exactly where BBC World Service activities stand, but the message of independent news delivery, ideally in acceptable languages, is very important. It is an area that concerns us and we hope that the horrible violence of the recent past will not be repeated.

[Baroness Stern]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that there has been a moratorium on the death penalty in Tajikistan since 2004? If he is, I am sure that he agrees with me that it is most welcome. Are the Government ready to give support to Tajikistan if requested in taking further these reforms, particularly in relation to reform of the court system and judicial training?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I must say frankly to the noble Baroness that I was not aware of the date of the moratorium on the death penalty, but I greatly welcome it. Indeed, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and some of my fellow Ministers have been active in carrying this message of, one hopes, the almost universal end of the death penalty to as many areas as possible. It is certainly something that we as a civilised nation believe in and we hope that that message can be spread. As to judicial training and other forms of training and technical assistance, there is a programme of help in that direction. We intend to do more, but there are limits to our resources and we must spread them as effectively as we can. These are valuable additions and we want to develop all kinds of assistance in the best way that we can.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I have a quick question. In the past there have been discussions between the United Kingdom and Tajikistan over a double taxation agreement and an agreement on provision of investment on both sides—an investment protection and promotion agreement. Do the Government have any plans to take forward discussions on those important agreements with Tajikistan?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I will certainly look into that. The general level of trade with Tajikistan, as the noble Baroness probably knows better than me, is fairly modest, but we are keen to do more on the commercial and financial side. I will look into the issue that she raised on tax arrangements and write to her if there is more news to tell.

Burma: Elections

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 11th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Cox]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the recent elections in Burma.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, the elections on 7 November were a sham. They were neither free, fair nor inclusive and they do not represent progress. We have heard reports of voter intimidation and irregularities in the results. Over 2,100 political prisoners remain in detention, including Aung San Suu Kyi. Many ethnic groups were excluded from the process. It is clear that the military is determined to maintain its grip on the country. An opportunity for national reconciliation has been missed.

[Baroness Cox]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply, with which I entirely agree. Is he aware that, while the sham nature of these elections has been widely and appropriately reported, less widely reported are some of the abuses in remote areas, such as the intimidation and arrest of Chin and Rohingya people and military offences against the Karen, which have led tens of thousands to flee into Thailand? Will Her Majesty’s Government consider some humanitarian assistance for the newly displaced and ensure that all the ethnic nationals, comprising 40 per cent of the population of Burma, are fully involved in all future discussions and dialogue?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, who is second to none in her grasp of these developments; I believe that shortly she will once again be travelling to the Chin state area to see for herself some of these very bad conditions. The broad answer is that we are monitoring the situation and looking carefully all the time at whether additional aid and support can be mobilised for these ethnic groups. Among the refugees on the Thai border there are now reports of unpleasant developments in Chin state, northern Rakhine and other areas. We are looking at these things closely. It is a little early to say whether additional international aid is required, but we stand ready to examine in close detail the points that the noble Baroness has rightly made.

[Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead]

My Lords, after the rigged and fraudulent election in Burma, is it not now time that we sent a clear signal to the military junta that it can no longer enjoy impunity for its war crimes and crimes against humanity over many years? In that respect, the United Nations special rapporteur has recommended a commission of inquiry into these crimes. The UK has supported that view. Will we therefore, in the United Nations Security Council, in the United Nations General Assembly and at the European Union next week when the election is discussed, support that view and press for a commission of inquiry?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Baroness is quite right. This is our policy, as she well knows, having administered it herself. As she also probably realises, the problem is that of gathering the appropriate international consensus. If we rush in too soon and fail to get the consensus, that will merely send a signal to the generals in Burma that the international community cannot do anything. We want to get the timing right, but the policy is exactly as the noble Baroness says. We support the idea of a commission of inquiry and the rapporteur’s proposal, but it may take quite a time to build the broad consensus that is needed to make this a success.

[Lord Avebury]

Should we not make it crystal clear to the Government of Myanmar that, if Aung San Suu Kyi is released on Saturday, that will be grossly insufficient to meet the many criticisms in the special rapporteur’s report, which is now before the General Assembly? Have the Government pressed for a UN-led dialogue on all the recommendations in that report, including for a commission of inquiry, which was mentioned by the noble Baroness? Is it in the EU recommendations to the General Assembly for discussion in December?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My noble friend is right: merely releasing Aung San Suu Kyi from her detention is only part of the story and certainly not a full response. There is a need for far greater pressure on Burma to begin to return itself to democracy. The EU has a tough sanctions policy, as my noble friend knows. We all have an agreed EU position on Burma, which the British Government are entirely consistent with and support. As to the policy at the UN, the position is as I described to the noble Baroness. It is a question of building the consensus and getting the timing right so that we and our EU colleagues can press ahead successfully and get full support for a commission of inquiry. It is no good if we rush in and find that we cannot get adequate support for it.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, on this day will the Minister recall that, in the Second World War, principal among the quarter of a million Burmese who fought alongside us or supported us as civilians were the Karen people, whom Lord Mountbatten of Burma described as our bravest allies? Will he also recall that, following what he has called sham elections, 30,000 Karen people have fled from the new upsurge of violence described by my noble friend in her question to the refugee camps along the border, where there are also 150,000 refugees? What aid and support can we give to these, our forgotten allies?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord is right. I have a slightly smaller figure of 20,000 but, really, who cares? Thousands upon thousands of desperate people have fled across the Thai-Burma border to escape clashes between troops and the ethnic Karen rebels. We are deeply concerned about the reports of this fighting, which serves only to underline the fact that flawed elections will not create the national reconciliation that noble Lords have rightly urged and called for. As to assistance for refugees, I will have to write in detail to the noble Lord. We are looking at it and thinking about the possible focusing of additional assistance, but I will supply the precise details in a letter.

Diplomacy

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 11th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, like other noble Lords, I begin by warmly congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, on initiating this interesting debate. He has enormous experience from his previous profession as one of our country’s leading diplomats. I also extend warm congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Monks, on his maiden speech. He brought to our Chamber his vast experience in matters of organised labour and unions and tactfully applied that experience to the world of diplomacy in a kind and understanding way.

I shall start my comments in the limited time available by concentrating on the people, the diplomats. I start by paying tribute to the work of all our diplomats overseas and at home and our locally engaged staff, who number about 10,000 overseas in FCO posts worldwide. A third of UK-based diplomats working overseas are in hardship posts, and this debate comes only a few days before the seventh anniversary of the Istanbul bombing on 15 November 2003 when 11 colleagues lost their lives in the service of our country. As recent events in countries such as Yemen or Iceland have shown, those working on Britain’s behalf continue to do so in the face of terrorist threats as well as of natural disasters. This creates extremely difficult conditions, as noble Lords have been good enough to recognise. The safety of all our staff is paramount, and our spending settlement, which I shall come to in some detail in a moment, will allow us to invest sufficiently in our overseas estate and in the security and safety of the staff. We continue to seek to upgrade our posts to meet modern-day threats, particularly in high security environments. We expect to complete all outstanding high- and medium-risk security projects by the end of this year, and our spending-round settlement, as I shall explain, contains adequate provision to allow us to continue this work over the next few years.

I apologise if I am putting excessive emphasis on the threat from terrorism, but it is very serious. The threat arises because terrorists are empowered with new weapons technologies, as well as emanating from other non-state groups and cells. It represents the biggest danger to the safety of our staff today. The number of posts where we assess the terrorist threat to be critical or severe has increased threefold since 2006. The nature of the terrorist threat is constantly changing and indiscriminate, as we saw in the two attacks on our staff in Yemen earlier this year. Fortunately, our security procedures worked in both cases and there were no casualties. However, it is not just Yemen, as although it is the latest place where our staff face a high threat to their personal safety, there are also acute terrorist threats posed in other locations such as Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Moreover, the threat of violent crime on top of terrorism is also serious and growing. Over recent months, several of our staff and their families have been the victims of armed robberies. Overall, our diplomatic network is operating today with much higher threats to the personal safety of its staff. It is a testament to them and their families’ resilience that staff are ready to live and work with these risks. I wanted to put that on the record right at the beginning of my remarks in closing the debate.

I turn now to our objectives, which rightly have been discussed by a number of noble Lords on both sides of the House. The Government understand that to promote and safeguard Britain’s priorities, we must have a firm picture of what we want to achieve in a very fast-changing world. We must properly resource our diplomatic effort to make this vision a reality, and have a clear understanding of our national priorities and positioning in today’s global order that goes hand in hand with our internal sense of unity and purpose inside this nation. I have no doubts about that at all.

From the outset, this Government have brought a strategic basis to our overseas relations. The National Security Council was established as a centre of decision making on all international and national security issues. It oversaw the development of the National Security Strategy and the Strategic Defence and Security Review which, taken together, cement the position of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office at the centre of delivering the Government’s international priorities. The FCO played a lead role in setting the context for the National Security Strategy through its work on the changing threats and opportunities that the UK faces, and ensuring that the capabilities and structures set out in the Strategic Defence and Security Review were fit for the purposes required. I can tell your Lordships that the FCO will be instrumental in taking forward the strategic defence and security goals of tackling threats at source, bringing all of the UK Government’s influence to bear in order to achieve our objectives both at home and overseas, and working more closely with our key allies and partners, both old and new. The FCO will give the lead that allows foreign policy to be supported by other government departments.

As we have heard in the debate from the noble Baroness, the high-level foreign policy priorities have a lasting and enduring continuity. As she rightly says, they are to safeguard Britain’s security, to build Britain’s prosperity and to provide—which we will do—full and effective consular support to British nationals around the world. Those are the overarching objectives, and within them I want to discuss various policy issues.

First, however, I turn to the spending settlement itself and how it fits in with those overarching and broad objectives. After a lot of pessimism in the press and elsewhere about cuts at the Foreign Office and so on, the settlement we have secured is an extremely good one. Like everyone else, of course, we have to take our share of the austerity package because of the overriding need to cope with the budget deficit that certain people left behind that we have to clear up. That is our problem and we have to grapple with it.

The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, seems to have got the wrong end of the stick on this matter. The net outcome is not a 24 per cent cut but a 10 per cent cut in real-terms spread over four years—2.5 per cent a year. It works out as a flat cash settlement which, given some of the difficulties that have to be faced, is not a dramatic change. It gets better than that: we have secured the restoration of the foreign currency protection mechanism and we will move the BBC’s World Service funding over to the BBC in 18 months’ to two years’ time, which will take 14 per cent off our budget expenditure straightaway.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

Will the flat cash settlement to which the Minister referred lead to a 10 per cent cut in Foreign Service personnel over the period until 2014?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I do not know where the noble Lord gets that figure from. I shall talk in a moment about personnel, but what he has said does not fit with what I am about to say.

What I have said means two things. First, we are reversing the previous Government’s disastrous decision to abandon the foreign exchange protection which wiped overnight 10 per cent off FCO budgets—it was an appalling decision. We now have a major boost, with the restoration of that mechanism freeing us from exchange rate gyrations. I hope that the shadow Secretary of State in the other place, who was a Treasury Minister at the time of that terrible decision, now welcomes what we have done to put it right.

Secondly, the BBC World Service move will enhance its independence—I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, about that—and it gives the BBC, at the same time, a flat-rate licence fee. The objectives will still be set by the Foreign Secretary and his approval will be required for any language service closures. The BBC has given solid guarantees that it will safeguard the World Service and I am quite sure that will be done. Your Lordships raised worries about this issue, but the position is absolutely secured.

That is the story of our comprehensive spending review outcome and it does not match some of the gloom that has been perpetrated all around. Indeed, there is still more good news to come because, in addition, our budget is being reinforced by new funding from the Treasury—I emphasise from the Treasury—which recognises the increased development work that we are now promoting in line with OECD rules. It does not come from DfID; we are not draining funds from the increased DfID budget, which is very large. It is a subvention which for us, on our scale of expenditure, is of a very pleasant kind, to match the increased development work which is undertaken in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

Several noble Lords raised the issue of posts, closures and postings around the country. In the coming weeks we will take strategic decisions on how to live within the settlement I have described. They will not lead to the kind of conclusion the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, has suggested. Our decisions—including on what we do, what activity we stop or scale back and whether our network of posts adequately meets the new realities—will be taken; none has been taken yet. I concede that this might mean closing some subordinate posts and consolidating in some capitals. Equally, in emerging markets or countries critical to UK security, it might mean opening new posts. We need a global diplomatic network to help bring the UK economy back to long-term health. The skills and expertise of our staff are vital to delivering active diplomacy. The settlement will allow us to invest in our staff, create a renewed focus on international policy and high-priority languages, and ensure that our diplomats are economic ambassadors for Britain, as all your Lordships wish them to be. The noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, asked for total staff figures. There are approximately 4,500 UK staff working at home and abroad, and 10,000 local staff, all overseas.

I turn to the other theme which ran through your Lordships’ debate: soft power; that is, the capability required to match the hard-power resources that we have to maintain as a nation. We have provided the means to resource properly our diplomatic work. However, that was not the only part of the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay. He also called on the Government to ensure that our diplomacy would be active. We will certainly be so in the security, conflict prevention and peacekeeping fields. If we accept, as I certainly do, the notion that our prosperity provides the foundation for our power, we must seize the openings available to us. This means developing much deeper links with key centres of influence such as Japan, South Korea, Malaysia, South Africa, Brazil, Turkey, the Gulf States and particularly, as the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister have made clear several times, China and India.

China may be the new giant market, and one must not forget that Japan is often seen as our best and most reliable friend in Asia, but perhaps the best gateway to the great new markets of the world is the network that is the modern Commonwealth, as my noble friend Lord Sheikh rightly pointed to. Today’s Commonwealth embraces at least six of the world’s fastest growing economies and markets, providing access to emerging powers where wealth is accumulating and purchasing power soaring. Stretching across continents and faiths, and covering almost 2 billion citizens, it is a soft-power network par excellence which Britain needs to serve our interests in, and give us access to, the new global landscape—obviously, that is a matter of great interest to me personally.

Deepening our links with these countries will have multiple benefits for British citizens. We accept that diplomacy is no longer just a government-to-government business. We must and will engage all sectors of society as well as multilateral and regional bodies. Links forged through trade, education—my noble friend Lord Bates pointed to scholarships—culture, sport, science and an active global diplomatic network will help not only to secure our economic future but to guarantee our future peace and stability.

Where combined EU action works best, we will use it to the full—the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, made a very good point here. We see the European External Action Service as a useful additional tool for our common purposes in key areas, lightening and assisting our nationally resourced activities. My noble friend Lady Falkner made the same point.

Both the British Council and BBC World Service—on which I have touched already—will remain fundamentally important parts of Britain’s presence in the world.

All parts of the FCO family will have to contribute to the cuts in public spending. I am quite clear that they will have to face budget restraints. Details have already been published. The British Council plays an important role in helping spread the UK's culture and values, and its charitable status and ability to raise a significant part of its budget through commercial and full-cost recovery activities give it independence from HMG’s policies. I was enormously impressed the other day in Kuala Lumpur to see how the British Council runs its programmes, including intercultural dialogue and promoting the UK's creative and knowledge economy, which supports our foreign policy objectives. The settlement that we have secured protects that fully.

In the face of great uncertainties and novel challenges, we need to deploy this nation's talents and resources with new agility and skill.

[Lord Patel of Blackburn]

The Minister has not commented on the issue of the hajj.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I can give the noble Lord a comment on the hajj and will certainly do so, but it will take the last of my precious minutes.

When the hajj delegation was first conceived, local Saudi medical facilities were not of a standard that we would like to see. Since then, this situation has changed significantly. In the light of that, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office conducted an objective review of the delegation's medical element. The number of people treated for minor ailments was 5,967 in 2007, 2,965 in 2008 and 254 in 2009. I hope that helps my noble friend.

We will pave the way into emerging markets to ensure Britain’s prosperity and our security. We will deepen our engagement with the rising powers and wealth centres and the great new markets of the modern and transforming world. We will steadily uphold our belief in human rights, political freedom, open trade and poverty reduction wherever we can. To reply to the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, I see no conflict between that commitment and the commitment to our access into markets and our new commercial drive.

People say that the age of the Atlantic and the West is passing, but our own age certainly is not so far as the UK is concerned. On the contrary, I see huge new possibilities for this nation as the pattern of world power and wealth shifts. We will move forward on to this new stage by working more closely with our partners across the world, because that is good for our own national interest and for all our citizens. I am confident that the spending settlement set out for the four years ahead enables our diplomatic community, despite all the challenges it faces, to play a full and highly effective part in this national strategy. I believe that we can have a resourced and active diplomacy of the sort that the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, has wisely called for and we can do it with great effect.

China: Liu Xiaobo

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 10th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister discussed the full range of our interests during his visit, reflecting the many-sided dialogues that we have with the Chinese Government. His discussions included human rights. No subjects were off limits.

[Lord Rennard]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Does he agree that all countries that are free and democratic should not hold back from exercising their right to freedom of speech by publicly supporting the award of the Nobel Peace Prize to Liu Xiaobo and demanding his immediate release, the release of his wife from house detention and that his lawyer be permitted to attend Oslo to receive the prize on his behalf? Does the Minister agree that the best way of ensuring that countries can exercise their right to freedom of speech on these issues is by working together with a single strong voice to demand greater respect for human rights in China so that its Government cannot prevent other people from speaking out on these issues, extracting trade concessions at the expense of the human rights of their own people?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

We work together with our EU partners in the various dialogues and will continue to do so. As for individual cases, I say to my noble friend that there is a time and a place. It may be that the handling of some of these perfectly valid cases is better done away from the glare of publicity, particularly when heads of state are exchanging views.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

In view of the Minister’s first reply, will he confirm that the subject of China’s use of the death penalty was one of the subjects that Mr Cameron raised on this occasion, as indeed he did in 2007? Is the Minister aware that Amnesty International still says that it is impossible to calculate the number of executions that are carried out in China because it is a state secret, but the number runs into thousands?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

So far as I understand it, all human rights issues were discussed, and that would certainly include the one that the noble Lord has mentioned. We welcome reports that a forthcoming revision of Chinese criminal law may reduce the scope of the death penalty by 10 to 15 non-violent crimes. In our language, of course, that would not necessarily be enough but it is something to welcome, and we hope that China will continue to limit the scope and application of the death penalty.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that, while he is right that there is a place and time for delicate discussions, China does itself no favours in barring other people who are not related to this particular instance from travelling? I raise the plight of Mo Shaoping and He Weifang, legal scholars who were due to come to London for a legal conference, who have no visas for Norway and were not in any sense going to draw attention to the Nobel prize; they have been barred from coming to a conference here, although they are entirely legitimate and innocent. We must defend the right of people to travel and to mix with the rest of the world, while at the same time being sensitive towards China.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My noble friend puts it extremely well. I have a long list here of individuals whose particular problems have arisen and whose instances have been raised by our ambassador and our representatives at different times. We will continue to press for an enlargement of freedoms and human rights with the Chinese, but there are different ways of doing it and my noble friend is right: some are best done publicly while some are best done in a more sensitive way.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, perhaps I may ask two questions. First, have the Prime Minister or any member of his entourage met any Chinese dissidents in the past few days while they were in China? Secondly, does the Minister agree that members of the public who are interested in human rights in China might look at the human rights overview on the FCO website? That is exactly what I did today, and I was interested to see that the latest update was that Prime Minister Gordon Brown has discussed human rights with China’s Premier and that Foreign Secretary David Miliband has spoken to his counterpart on the same subject. Does the Minister think that that really is prioritising human rights in China?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I do not know whether the noble Baroness slipped into a time warp; it sounds as though the website did. I will look into that. When I glanced at the site this morning I thought that I saw a more up-to-date version, but strange things happen in the cyberworld of the internet. It may be that the noble Baroness was misled by the machinery of the FCO’s website. I will examine it to see what went wrong.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, the first question was on meeting dissidents.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I do not have any information on meeting dissidents. The visit is continuing and I do not know what the rest of the programme will involve. However, I will write to the noble Baroness when I have precise information on that, as opposed to the other official-level meetings about which we have already heard.

[Lord Tebbit]

Is my noble friend aware that if we seek to impose our views excessively on other sovereign states we may set a precedent for some of them to impose their views on us, and that many states, particularly those which observe Sharia law, might have some fairly strong comments to make about the state of our society in this country?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

In answer to my noble friend, I saw a Matt cartoon this morning suggesting there might be Chinese concerns about overcrowding on railway carriages in the United Kingdom. So there is always room for two-way commentary on how other people live. However, the point is that our commentaries are about our own standards and they are put forward in a spirit of friendship and support. As the Prime Minister made absolutely clear, we are not in the business of going round lecturing and hectoring other great nations and great powers about how they should organise their affairs. But we can give friendly advice, and friendly advice is usually quite welcome.

Piracy: Operation Atalanta (EUC Report)

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 10th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, I think that the Government have already indicated in their response that they welcome the committee’s report on the counterpiracy operations by the EU off the coast of Somalia and its support for our efforts to tackle piracy. I would go further than that. Listening to this debate, I feel proud to be a Member of your Lordships’ House. The report has promoted an enormous range of very valuable thoughts. I possibly disagree with my noble friend Lord Hamilton, who seemed to be having a bit of a bad day with this report. I recognise that no report is perfect and no report can produce a whole string of solutions—nor is my speech going to produce such a string of solutions to the colossal problems that we face, which go far deeper than the phenomenon of piracy itself.

The report contains extremely valuable insights and promotes a debate such as the one we have had this afternoon, which in turn will hold the Government to account, as it is intended to, and sharpen and focus our policies as we grapple with this problem. I want to leave no doubt at all that we take the menace of Somali piracy extremely seriously and believe that it is vital to play a leading role in the international efforts to counter this threat. The situation is full of dangers and I hope that there is no suggestion of any complacency, despite the fact that there have been successes and solid advances, which I shall enumerate in my speech.

The efforts so far have been achieved not only militarily, through our command of the EU counterpiracy operations and our contribution to other naval operations in the area, but also by the strong political leadership that this country has provided within the Contact Group on Piracy off the Coast of Somalia, whose co-ordinating efforts from Northwood and Bahrain have been referred to. The UK has substantial economic interests in protecting freedom of navigation on the seas in this area, as throughout the world. My noble friend Lord Selkirk and the noble Lord, Lord Brett, are quite right that this problem could directly affect the maritime flows of oil and other crucial commodities, which provide a network that in a sense is just as important as the cybernetwork that people are coming to realise is the other vital latticework and web holding together our entire global prosperity.

We must be realistic, as many noble Lords were this afternoon, including my noble and gallant friend Lord Inge and the noble Lord, Lord Sewel: there are no quick fixes and it will be a very long haul. I am very grateful for the broad support for Operation Atalanta that the noble Lord, Lord Brett, on behalf of the Opposition offered this evening. To use a phrase that I am afraid has slight political connotations, we are all in this one together. We must work resolutely together to maximise the contribution and do more.

It must be remembered that Operation Atalanta was set up with two tasks in mind. One was to protect World Food Programme vessels delivering food aid to displaced persons in Somalia, as well as protecting shipping assisting the African Union Mission in Somalia, AMISOM. These escorts have helped the delivery of more than 500,000 metric tonnes of food to Somalia, feeding on average more than 1.35 million Somalis each day. Atalanta has also ensured a continuous flow of supplies to the African Union Mission for Somalia. I should say to my noble friend Lord Avebury, who raised this matter, that the plan is to enlarge AMISOM to 8,000 and then 12,000 personnel. We will then be able to contemplate a much more ambitious programme on land. So far none of the ships in that continuous flow of supplies has been hijacked while being supported by Operation Atalanta. We must not talk about winning, success and victory, but we can talk about a most satisfactory degree of containment of the situation and a genuine advance from an otherwise deteriorating pattern.

The second task of Atalanta is, of course, to deter and disrupt attacks on vulnerable shipping in the region. Working closely with the other international operations, the EU naval force has had significant success in deterring and disrupting pirate activity in the critical Gulf of Aden trade artery. I have been asked at several stages whether things are getting better or worse. Activities and disruption in the Gulf of Aden are down this year, but activities and disruption in the much larger area off Somalia in the Indian Ocean are somewhat up. Overall, the balance is slightly down in terms of numbers of incidents, although more people have, I am afraid, been involved.

The reference to EU-NAVFOR looking out for shipping that is vulnerable is deliberate. Most of the 20,000 merchant ships that go through the Gulf of Aden each year need little or no protection. Ships with high freeboard, travelling at reasonable speed, with lookouts deployed properly and with physical barriers erected against pirate boarding, should be safe from attack. The military operations have made it clear from the start that the first line of defence against pirates is adherence to common-sense self-defence measures. That should be obvious. It is a pity that it is not more obvious to some ship operators.

The big industry associations have been critical allies in getting this message across—and we have to get it across. It is thanks to their close work with EU-NAVFOR and with the other military operations that we have industry-agreed best management practice for all ships active in the region between Suez and India. I pay tribute to all the seafarers and companies that stick closely to these guidelines and therefore reduce the risk both to themselves and to the military. I also share the frustration of the military at the numbers—it may be as high as one in five, or 20 per cent—that still consider compliance with these measures as optional. It is staggering, frankly, that some ships go through this area without even bothering to post lookouts and that the first notice that the military get of a hijack is to hear the words, “There is a pirate on the bridge”, by when, of course, it is very nearly too late. We are there to support the shipping industry, but we need its support, too.

My noble friend Lord Hamilton said that brisk retaliation by armed private security on ships, opening fire at approaching pirates, would be the answer. There are problems with that. The British Chamber of Shipping is cautious about that on the grounds of jurisdiction and the escalation of violence and so on. Of course, there is the question of vessel protection detachments, which I shall come to in a moment and to which I think my noble and gallant friend Lord Inge was referring, but there are difficulties that realistically and carefully one must face. If there are to be armed personnel on ships, put there by the military through these various methods, they have to be properly trained and advised, as my noble and gallant friend Lord Inge rightly said.

Operation Atalanta has delivered substantial success—I do use that word—in its efforts. Through its direct military efforts, but also through its innovative approach in co-ordinating closely with industry and Governments, it has substantially reduced the risk of successful hijack in the Gulf of Aden. It has pioneered the use of the internationally recognised transit corridor and its partnership with industry associations, about which several noble Lords asked, has pushed hard the need for compliance with that best management practice. EU-NAVFOR has also worked with Egypt and the Suez Canal Authority to pass on information on best management practice to all ships going through the canal. It is noteworthy that every recent successful hijack in the Gulf of Aden has been the result, not surprisingly, of non-compliance shipping.

Successfully combating this piracy infection in the wider Indian Ocean is a much more demanding task. There are 1.5 million square miles to cover—an area larger than the Mediterranean—and ensuring the same protection as in the Gulf of Aden would require hundreds of warships, which no country has today. However, the volume of trade is, of course, much lower and the practical and effective approach being taken by EU-NAVFOR in monitoring pirate action groups and disrupting their efforts has delivered positive results. To date, more than 60 pirate attacks have been successfully disrupted as a result of EU operations. The Government commend these proactive efforts most highly.

I have suggested that, to do much more, the operation needs more assets; indeed, several of your Lordships have reinforced that obvious point. The commanders have said that they have sufficient assets to achieve their mandate, narrowly drawn, but quite rightly they want to do more. The Government have supported actively, including through our leadership in the contact group, the need for specific additional assets. Top of this list has been aerial surveillance assets, about which several of your Lordships made comments, but the Government are also trying to help to provide more oil tankers, more helicopter-capable warships and a greater use of military vessel protection detachments, as I mentioned.

Let me deal with some of these issues more specifically, as noble Lords did in their speeches. On aerial surveillance, France, Germany, Spain, Luxembourg and Sweden are already providing maritime patrol aircraft coverage, but much more would certainly be welcome. The UK, it is true, is no longer able to provide support in this area, but we have been engaged in discussion with partners to provide more and to help in support with basing over this enormous area. I would like to single out the generous support of the Government of Japan, who in addition to sending warships have also deployed three maritime patrol aircraft, which make a vital contribution, supplying data to all the multinational operations. I was asked by my noble friends Lord Selkirk and Lord Avebury about UAVs. The UK has none of these. There are some in the coalition, but I cannot comment on details for security reasons.

The UK is providing oil tanker support, a point that the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, raised, and we are discussing with partners whether they can do more, maximising the time that warships can stay on station. The Government are grateful in particular for the provision by the Government of Saudi Arabia of a tanker. Helicopter-capable ships are also essential, as helicopters are usually the first means of response and deterrence. I cite as an example the deployment by the Netherlands of a landing ship rather than a frigate, which has made a substantial contribution.

I want to enlarge on what I said about vessel protection detachments. This means putting marine or other military personnel aboard a vulnerable vessel. They can help to ensure its security without the need for a frigate in close proximity, which, of course, can then free up the frigate for wider counterpiracy duties. There is a growing list of partners keen and willing to make their contribution in this way, in the most part partners who are unable to send warships. The use of VPDs both broadens the coalition and makes best use of the warships deployed—I think that that was the point that my noble and gallant friend Lord Inge rightly and perceptively made.

Several of your Lordships mentioned the insurance industry, which is obviously important as well. There has been constant dialogue, through the contact group, with the insurance industry and the Government welcome the announcement at the working group meeting on 21 October—only the other day—by representatives of the insurance industry that they will require higher premiums for vehicles that are not seen to be complying with best management practice. We look forward to hearing a lot more about the impact of this development in practice, but it clearly makes sense, as it begins to introduce into the whole insurance pattern incentives to get real and to organise properly and in compliance with best management practice, rather than floating through serenely in a cavalier manner. That must be an advance.

In its report, the committee highlighted the fact that the World Food Programme’s use of small slow ships contravened the advice given to the shipping industry—a point that the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, and others raised. The programme has a dilemma: it wishes to maximise the food that it delivers, but the bigger, better and more modern the ships it has to charter, the more money goes on the ships rather than on the food. It is wrong, though, for military support to be unduly skewed to the protection of these deliveries if they can be done by other, better means. Negotiations are going on between the military operations, the United Nations and the World Food Programme to do better. I welcome the fact that these discussions include, once again, the greater use of vessel protection detachments. I am also pleased by discussions with other multinational and national operations to enable them to share the burden of these duties and therefore enable EU-NAVFOR to pursue its much wider mandate. Indeed, I welcome the fact that convoys have now been carried out by Russian ships, with NATO interests helping in this area, too, again reinforcing the impressive nature, almost unmatched in recent times, maybe even in wartime, of the co-ordination going on between the different navies and naval detachments of the world.

I turn to the legal issues that were raised by several noble Lords. I make it clear that the UK will always prosecute pirates wherever there is a chance of success and I know that that is also the intent of the EU-NAVFOR naval commanders. We are grateful for the support of industry in helping to provide the witnesses who are essential to prosecute these cases. On a point that the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, raised, the UK and the EU are also providing technical and financial support to Kenya, the Seychelles, Somalia and soon, I hope, others, in order to support work in developing courts and prisons to accept more pirates. I suppose that in the longer term one would look to places that are relatively calm, such as Somaliland—in contrast to Somalia—for developments of that kind.

Mr Ban Ki-Moon, Secretary-General of the United Nations, has talked about some international facilities such as courts and prisons for dealing with pirates. Negotiations on an EU handover agreement with Mauritius, which the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, asked about, are now at an advanced stage and I expect renewed discussions to begin with Tanzania shortly. Of course there is a question over whether these countries have the capacity for these things—some concerns were expressed in Kenya—but nevertheless prosecutions have been carried out. I think that some are going on while I stand here. There are currently over 130 pirates in prison, of whom to date 54 have been successfully prosecuted and convicted, following the handover from counterpiracy operations. The eight pirates detained by HMS Cumberland in November 2008—that is a couple of years ago—are now serving 20 years in Kenyan prisons for piracy. That is a deterrent.

I turn to the other major theme of the debate, spoken about perceptively by many of your Lordships, which is embraced in the words “root causes”. There is wide acceptance that piracy off Somalia will not be stopped until the problems of lawlessness and instability within Somalia are addressed, a point correctly made by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, my noble friend Lord Avebury, the noble Lord, Lord Williams, and the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich. Foreign Office and DfID ministerial colleagues are working with African leaders and Foreign Ministers to ensure that a long-term solution for Somalia is found. That is, naturally, what one would say, but of course it embraces a huge challenge. It is important not just to stop piracy—that is not all that we are talking about—but to curb the much wider threats that emanate from Somalia towards British interests. Most notably, that includes terrorism—al-Qaeda-related, no doubt—but also includes the trafficking of people, weapons and drugs, and threatening the destabilisation of the wider region.

As the noble Lord, Lord Williams, said in a very interesting contribution, al-Shabaab may well be benefiting from that. Certainly, al-Shabaab and al-Qaeda appear to have links. Then again, such is the complexity of the Somali situation that al-Shabaab may actually be working against the pirates. There was one report that they have cleared out the port of Eyl—for the benefit of Hansard, that is spelt E Y L—which was a pirate nest and from which the pirates have now fled. It is a complicated situation, but what can definitely be said is that many of these evil developments, including terrorism, are flourishing in that unsettled area.

Finding solutions inside Somalia and in the region is therefore essential. The UK has played an important role in mapping a way forward through its leadership of the contact group working group on capability development. The contact group has agreed a needs assessment report, assembled by a UK-led team, making clear the key priorities for action. This is the outline of the plan for which many noble Lords today have rightly called. The Government also welcome the results of the Mauritius regional ministerial meeting on maritime security on 7 October, which agreed a strategy and action plan broadly consistent with the contact group assessment. Inside Somalia, it will be important to continue the work to support the development of good governance through the transitional federal Government.

I know that the time limit is being pointed to, but there have been so many fascinating points that it would be impertinent not to refer to some of them. I move into the final phase by saying that it is obviously important to support economic development in coastal regions and to support community and religious leaders in continuing to speak out against the pirates, saying that what they are doing not only is morally wrong, obviously, but is distorting and destroying the economies of many coastal areas and delaying the establishment of law and order. The regional action plan agreed recently includes a request to the Intergovernmental Authority on Development to take forward work inside Somalia to address piracy at its roots. This is correct and welcome.

I shall talk briefly about tackling financial flows, where the money goes and so on. I am afraid that the money disappears into lavish living—a Mercedes, new weapons, drugs and all sorts of other things—but we are working closely with international partners, as well as supporting the work of Interpol, Europol, the UN Office on Drugs and Crime and the Financial Action Task Force towards the tracing and recovery of the illicit gains of piracy. We are also working with regional partners to develop effective anti-money-laundering legislation and action to enhance our ability to prosecute the financiers of piracy.

The UK pays no ransom—that is absolutely against UK government policy—and we strongly counsel third parties against doing so. Obviously, though, if they are foreigners or non-British nationals, we do not have any direct influence.

The Government agree with the committee’s report of the continuing high value of Operation Atalanta. The Foreign Secretary has agreed with his European counterparts that, subject to scrutiny requirements of both Houses, the operation should be extended for a further two years, with Northwood continuing to act as the operation HQ and the UK continuing to provide the commander. The Government hope that this can shortly be agreed. The task ahead is tough. This is a serious danger globally and to our national interest and we intend to pursue it with all possible vigour.

India: Commonwealth Games

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Tuesday 9th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the assurance given by the Government of India that special funds for the support of Dalits and other scheduled castes were not used to finance the Commonwealth Games.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, I can assure the noble and right reverend Lord that we have been monitoring this situation carefully. Following earlier reassurances from Delhi that the Commonwealth Games were self-funding, the Indian Home Minister has subsequently acknowledged that some moneys earmarked for Dalits and scheduled castes were in fact used to contribute to Commonwealth Games infrastructure projects and that, in his view, this was both wrong and inconsistent with Indian Planning Commission guidelines. I understand that the Indian Government are now seeking to find ways of returning the sums involved to the scheduled castes plan and have appointed a task force to revise guidelines and their application.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

I thank the Minister for his reply, and I am particularly grateful that he has made the House aware that the assurance previously given by the Indian Government was in fact unfounded. In the light of that recognition, will Her Majesty’s Government monitor the situation and perhaps also raise the question that, as has been widely reported, a similar diversion of funds has taken place in a range of states?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I will certainly follow the advice of the noble and right reverend Lord. I do not have any details on the other allegations but I will look into them. He might be interested to know that the sum diverted was £94 million. We are monitoring the situation very closely, and the British high commissioner is in discussion with the Indian National Commission for Minorities about these and other issues.

[Lord Grenfell]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on the Dalits. Now that the Delhi state government have finally acknowledged this diversion of funds which should have gone to projects such as schools, healthcare centres and, most importantly, the eradication of the demeaning manual scavenging which is the means of livelihood for so many of the Dalits, does the Minister—who I know has long been a great champion of the Commonwealth—agree that the Secretary-General of the Commonwealth should ensure that the lessons to be learnt from this very unfortunate incident should be placed on the agenda of the next Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting in Perth, Australia, next October so that there can be a full discussion of whether it is correct and sensible for a country which has more than half its population living in absolute poverty and is a recipient of development aid to be seeking to host an enormous event at such colossal cost?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I certainly recognise the validity of the noble Lord’s introduction of the Commonwealth into this issue, and I think that the Commonwealth has a very valuable role to play. However, I am not so sure whether it is a question of drawing it to the attention of the Secretary-General and the Heads of Government Meeting or of drawing it to the attention of the Eminent Persons Group which is now looking at ways in which the Commonwealth monitoring and policing of human rights generally can be greatly upgraded. I suspect, on reflection, that it might be best to put it before the EPG. Either way, the concern of the Commonwealth in upholding, monitoring and strengthening human rights through all its member states, including the world power which India is, is very important indeed.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, would the Minister agree with Manmohan Singh, the Prime Minister of India, who has said that the caste system is a blot on humanity? Is it not the case that the way to end things such as manual scavenging, which has rightly been referred to, is by the promotion of education for Dalit people? Can the Minister say what access to education is being given to the Dalit people, especially in areas such as information technology, as a result of support being given by Her Majesty's Government?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am not sure I can say what has followed as a result of intervention by Her Majesty's Government, but one has to bear in mind that India is a sovereign, great and respected nation. Indeed, as I said just now, it is a world power. We must leave it to the Indian authorities to recognise pressures from outside, which certainly include pressures from us, and to respond accordingly. Generally, our high commissioner is in constant contact on these matters. The concerns of this House and the other place are constantly placed before our Indian friends, but in the end, we are friends, not lecturers, and we must have a good relationship with this great nation that is emerging as a major force in the world.

[Lord Avebury]

My Lords, now that the diversion of these funds from the special Scheduled Caste Sub Plan to the infrastructure of the Commonwealth Games has been acknowledged, will my noble friend ask New Delhi what is its response to the demands by the National Campaign on Dalit Human Rights including, particularly, the demand for an audit of the funds diverted by the Comptroller and Auditor-General of India?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes, we will certainly ask for that information to be put forward. I possibly did not fully answer my noble friend Lord Grenfell who implied that India was perhaps not the best place to hold the Commonwealth Games. The Government would disagree with him about that. There were some undoubted hiccups, but in the end the Commonwealth Games went ahead very successfully, helped cement relationships and carried forward the value of the Commonwealth network, which is the one of the most powerful platforms of the 21st century for the entire globe.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, is to be congratulated for his persistence in pursuing this question in the way that he has. Is the Minister aware of whether any money from DfID was involved in this unfortunate use of funds that should have gone to the Dalits? I wonder whether the Indian high commissioner has been asked into the Foreign Office to ascertain whether any DfID money has been involved and, indeed, whether he is satisfied that DfID money will be used for the purposes for which the British Government provide aid to India and not for other purposes, as was the case in this instance.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes, we are aware of the situation, which is that no money from DfID has been involved in this situation or, indeed, has been given to the provincial Government of Delhi, although obviously DfID money goes to the federal Government, which is a different matter. No money at all is involved in this issue. As for discussions with the Indian high commissioner, we all see him from time to time and hold very fruitful discussions with him. I am not sure when he was last in the Foreign Office, but the noble Baroness can be assured that we are in constant contact.

[Lord Hylton]

My Lords, can the Minister tell the House whether there was a proportion of Dalits in the Indian national team in these games, given that they are India’s largest single minority?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

No, I am afraid I cannot tell the noble Lord that. The composition of the Indian competing teams is a matter for the Indian Government, and we must leave it to them to have a proper proportion and proper balance. I believe they recognise the validity of world concerns about the caste system, which is a part of yesterday’s world, as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, said, but we must leave it to them to choose who they have as competitors in their team for the Commonwealth Games and other events.

Foreign and Commonwealth Office: Educational Allowances

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Monday 1st November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the total cost of educational allowances paid to Foreign and Commonwealth Office and associated departmental officials in the last 12 months for which figures are available; and whether they intend to amend the cap on those allowances.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, we contribute only towards the education costs of children of staff who are required to work in posts overseas. These officials pay UK tax wherever they work and are entitled to have their children educated at public expense. In 2009-10, we spent £13.3 million on children educated in the UK and £11.5 million on children at schools overseas. The ceiling on the amount that parents can claim towards boarding schools is reviewed annually and was reduced in September this year.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Is it not true that excellent quality, state boarding-school education is available in the United Kingdom at an average price of around £9,000 per annum, plus a £3,500 contribution towards tuition by the state as against public school fees of between £22,000 and £30,000 a year? Why cannot the Foreign Office save tens of millions of pounds by capping the amount of money that a Foreign Office official can claim to the level of state boarding-school fees?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. It is true that state boarding-school places are excellent, but unfortunately it is not true that they are available. Diplomats with children who need to be educated when they go abroad to places where they cannot take their children—I have a list of 48 countries to which children are not allowed to be taken—need to find places quickly. However, they find that they are not at the top of the queue for the 5,000 boarding places available in state schools in this country. I appreciate very much the point that the noble Lord makes but it does not add up if you are trying to find a place for your child.

[Lord Deben]

Does my noble friend agree that it is a very important part of keeping the best people in the Foreign Service that we provide this service for their young children, as without it we would not have the quality people whom we expect? It is about time that people stopped sniping at the Foreign Service on this issue.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am grateful to my noble friend for that support. He is absolutely right but I shall correct him on one thing, if I may. It involves not only senior staff as 75 per cent of the children helped are of parents with quite junior salaries. The Foreign Office sends junior people to very difficult posts and they may have young children who need to be educated.

[Lord Wright of Richmond]

My Lords, I declare two interests. First, I was a beneficiary of these allowances for a large part of my career. Secondly, 19 years ago I gave evidence to the noble Lord, Lord Sheldon, and the Public Accounts Committee in support of these allowances, so I am somewhat biased. Does the Minister agree that the continuation of these allowances is essential as members of the Diplomatic Service are often posted abroad with very little notice and such allowances are necessary for the uninterrupted education of their children? Does he also agree that they are very much in line with those given by practically all international companies, and so are essential if recruitment and retention in the Diplomatic Service is to be preserved?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I agree with the noble Lord, who obviously speaks with enormous authority on this subject. I would just add, referring back to my Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, that we are looking at ways of bringing the cost of this operation down. However, the basic requirement is that these children are educated; we do not want only childless diplomats. Therefore, we have had to make the provision that the noble Lord has just described. I believe that it should continue and that it is essential for an effective diplomatic effort by this country.

[Lord Harrison]

Further to his first Answer, will the Minister say in simple pounds, shillings and pence what is the annual maximum tax-free contribution that can be made to the education at a secondary school of a child of a Foreign Office official? Secondly, will he rebut in their entirety articles in the Daily Mail and the Telegraph suggesting that this Government will abolish the continuity of education allowances which are so important to our Armed Forces and, indeed, the Foreign Office?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

There is no suggestion, as I made clear, that these allowances will be discontinued for the Diplomatic Service. I cannot comment on other branches of the Crown service or other public services because that is another question for which a rather different set of arrangements apply. The figures for which the noble Lord asks are that the ceiling for junior boarders in the current year is £7,239 per term and £8,236 for senior boarders, which is a reduction of £100 since last September. The figures are considerably lower for those attending as day pupils.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

Will my noble friend comment on whether, given the large sums involved and these rather austere financial times, there are any efforts to have negotiations with DfID and the Ministry of Defence for a collective purchase agreement at a limited number of schools so that the costs might be constrained in that way?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That is a very valuable thought. As far as Foreign and Commonwealth Office is concerned, the numbers are rather small. We are talking about a maximum of 2,000 children, of which only 500 are being educated in the United Kingdom. Given the circumstances of where these children go—whether to be near their grandparents or to where an available space is found—it is very difficult to concentrate on a single discount operation. This is slightly outside the question, but I believe that the Armed Forces are large enough to have a kind of discount arrangement, but we do not have the numbers or the weight to engineer that kind of system for the Foreign Office.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, if the cap were to be reduced from over £25,000 per annum to the £13,000 to £14,000 that I am suggesting, surely that would create the demand in the state boarding school sector that the Minister said in his first reply is missing?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, the difficulty that the noble Lord must appreciate is that although there are state boarding-school places, and perhaps there ought to more, they tend to be filled up very rapidly with children with real boarding needs from domestic households and families. Diplomats inevitably come along at the last minute, because postings sometimes have to be on an emergency basis, and they find that those places are filled. If the sums were reduced to the levels that the noble Lord is talking about, parents who are already on fairly modest salaries and are paying a contribution to meet the total requirements of the school where their children are being educated would simply not be able to afford it and the children would not be educated. We have to face it: if we want good diplomacy, we have to allow the children to be educated.

Afghanistan

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 27th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House I will now repeat a Statement made earlier today by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary on Afghanistan. The Statement is as follows:

“Mr Speaker, with permission, I will report to the House the Government’s assessment of progress towards UK objectives in Afghanistan. This is the first of the quarterly reports that the Prime Minister announced in his Statement to the House on 14 June.

Making progress in Afghanistan is the top foreign policy priority for the Government, linked closely of course to our foreign and development policy towards Pakistan. It is right, therefore, that Parliament is able to scrutinise the mission in Afghanistan in detail. From the beginning of the new Government we have given full attention to Afghanistan in the National Security Council. We have ensured that government departments and Ministers are working together at the highest level and that the necessary resources are being devoted to this difficult task. We have doubled the operational allowance for our troops, sharply increased our development aid and rebalanced the deployment of our forces in Helmand.

In addition to these reports and regular updates by Ministers, we will also make more information available to the House in the form of Written Ministerial Statements each month from November. I will make a further Statement when the investigation into the tragic death of Linda Norgrove is complete.

Members on all sides will join me in expressing gratitude to our courageous Armed Forces. They are the finest any nation could hope to have. We should also remember the families of the 341 men and women who have given their lives and the many who have been wounded. For nine years thousands of Britons have served in Afghanistan in both civilian and military roles in extraordinarily difficult circumstances, and we owe them a great deal.

It remains vital to our national security that Afghanistan be able to maintain its own security and to prevent al-Qaeda from returning. NATO’s strategy is to protect the civilian population, support more effective government at every level and build up the Afghan national security forces as rapidly as is possible. It also requires the Afghan Government to meet the commitments on governance and security that it made at the Kabul conference in July this year. My report today will cover all these areas. It represents the combined assessment of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Ministry of Defence and the Department for International Development, and the next quarterly report will be delivered by the Secretary of State for Defence in the new year.

On security, we assess that steady progress is being made across Afghanistan and specifically in Helmand and Kandahar provinces. International forces now number 130,000, while the Afghan national security forces will reach 260,000 by the end of the year, exceeding their target for 2010. Afghan and ISAF forces have checked the momentum of the insurgency and the area under the control of the Government of Afghanistan is increasing. However, the situation remains extremely challenging. One of the effects of increased military activity is that the number of security incidents, particularly those involving direct fire, has increased sharply. We should not underestimate the highly difficult task our forces continue to face.

ISAF’s military effort is currently focused on Kandahar. Afghan and international forces continue to clear the insurgency out of areas adjacent to the provincial capital. Afghan security forces are taking an increased role in planning and executing the current phase of these operations and make up well over half of the forces involved. In the coming weeks, operations will focus on holding the ground that has been gained and providing a secure environment for local Afghan governance to develop.

In Helmand province, UK forces continue to train the Afghan national security forces and conduct security operations against the insurgency. As my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence announced on 14 October, we are increasing the number of UK troops directly involved in the training and development of the Afghan national security forces by over 320. This increase is part of the rebalancing of UK forces in the province and has been made possible by the handover of security responsibility for Kajaki, Musa Qala and Sangin to our US allies, in order to concentrate British forces in the key population areas of central Helmand.

On 17 October, units of the 3rd Brigade of the Afghan National Army’s 215 Corps launched a significant operation to secure settlements near Gereshk. This operation is building on the success of previous Afghan national security force operations which have cleared the insurgency out of former havens in central Helmand over the course of the summer. Planning and implementation is being led by the Afghans with British mentors from 1st Battalion Irish Guards providing support. For the first time, engineering, artillery, countering improvised explosive devices and reconnaissance are being conducted by the Afghan National Army itself.

US Marines, which now form the majority of the ISAF forces in Helmand, continue the hard fought struggle against the insurgency in Sangin, while in Marjah they have continued to carry out operations alongside the Afghan National Army and Police.

The Government are confident that we have the right military strategy in place and the right number of troops in Afghanistan. However, we must expect levels of violence to remain high, and even increase, as Afghan and ISAF forces tackle the insurgency. The murders by insurgents of the governor of Kunduz province and a district governor in Nangarhar province remind us of the violence that still exists, even in the more secure areas of the country.

The Prime Minister will attend the NATO summit in Lisbon on 19 November, when we expect NATO to agree the process of transferring lead responsibility for security across Afghanistan to the Afghan security forces by the end of 2014. It will be a phased transition, with the Afghan security forces gradually taking the lead, as they have in Kabul, in jointly selected districts and provinces as the conditions on the ground are met. British forces will be drawn down from combat operations by 2015.

On governance, we assess that the Government of Afghanistan are making some progress on their Kabul conference commitments. The human rights support unit in the ministry of justice has been opened. The Afghan national security adviser has approved a revised national security policy. The Government are finalising a 100-day report which will highlight progress and areas where further action is needed. But more still needs to be done, some of it more quickly.

Last month’s parliamentary elections passed without serious security incident. However, the independent electoral commission has confirmed that more than 1 million votes, almost a quarter of the total, were disqualified on grounds of irregularities and fraud. The Electoral Complaints Commission will investigate allegations against candidates and disqualify those found to have committed fraud before final results are issued. This is an important process to build Afghans’ confidence in their country’s institutions.

On 7 October, the High Peace Council was inaugurated, fulfilling a key request of the Afghan Consultative Peace Jirga in June. It marks an important milestone for the Afghan peace and reintegration programme. It is for the Afghan people to shape a political settlement which reflects the needs, culture and aspirations of all the Afghan people. The UK will support a settlement which gives Afghanistan stability and security, is representative, gives no one group disproportionate influence, upholds human rights and the rule of law, and is in accordance with Afghanistan’s constitutional framework. The UK will work with individuals and groups who genuinely share these aims and who accept the conditions laid down by President Karzai’s Government. Insurgents must renounce al-Qaeda, give up armed struggle and work within the Afghan constitutional framework. We consider on its merits any request for the UK to play a role in support of this Afghan-led process. At the same time, ISAF will continue to exert intensifying pressure on the insurgency throughout the country.

Corruption continues to be a serious problem in Afghanistan and there has been only modest progress in anti-corruption efforts. In the past year, the Criminal Justice Task Force convicted 440 people, including serious narcotics dealers and corrupt officials. New mining regulations have been introduced to increase transparency and accountability. The UK is helping the Afghan Government to strengthen accountability and prevent corruption through financial management reforms and to build institutions with the ability to tackle corruption and enforce the rule of law. We are pressing for the anti-corruption monitoring and evaluation committee, which has been appointed, to start work as soon as possible.

In early September, Afghanistan’s central bank was forced to intervene to stabilise the Kabul Bank after allegations of corruption. The Afghan authorities must now work with the IMF to conduct a proper audit and take any necessary action. Weaknesses in the banking regulatory system must be addressed if Afghanistan is to maintain domestic and foreign public confidence.

The Afghan economy grew last year by a rapid 22.5 per cent, and tax revenues have risen sixfold in six years. The IMF predicts that the Government of Afghanistan will be able to cover non-security running costs by 2015 and all running costs by 2023.

The House will recall that, on 21 July, the Secretary of State for International Development announced a £200-million increase in UK funding for Afghanistan to stabilise insecure areas, stimulate the economy and improve essential services. Early progress is being made at the ministry of interior, where the new Minister is keen to develop a more capable and accountable police force which will help sustain the transition of security responsibilities to the Afghan Government.

The deployment of British Armed Forces abroad is one of the gravest responsibilities of government, along with that of protecting the security of Britain’s citizens and territory. In Afghanistan, the two go hand in hand. The Government understand how important it is to retain public confidence in our mission and to ensure democratic scrutiny of it. We will continue to provide regular and frank assessments to the House. Above all, we will do our utmost to ensure that NATO’s strategy in Afghanistan is seen through with rigour and determination and that the extraordinary efforts of so many thousands of our Armed Forces serve to enhance the national security of the United Kingdom”.

That completes the Statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has posed a series of extremely well informed and penetrating questions. The words that I seized on in her contribution were that I might have a chance to think about some of them, because instant replies might not be perfect. I will, though, attempt to answer in detail a number of the important points that she has made.

I shall not take those points in order; instead, I shall deal straight away with what I believe to be the central consideration in the devolution of Afghanistan society—the position of women in it. Indeed, this applies to many of the broader political issues and struggles that the world faces today, particularly in central Asia and the Middle East. I agree with her that the position of women is central. Our officials are working closely with the Afghan authorities all the time about this matter. I have some figures here. Some 100 women were involved in the earlier peace jirga. During the election, 402 women stood as candidates, which is quite a lot; 68 seats were guaranteed for women, and one seat was won by a woman despite not being guaranteed. So, things are happening, but we have a long way to go. We are miles from seeing the proper civilised position of men and women in a modern society. We are just not there yet; a huge amount of work lies ahead. I agree with the noble Baroness that it is, above all, by the measure of that that one can decide whether there is success in seeing Afghanistan, which is a noble country that must be able to play a part in the civilised comity of nations, go forward in the right way. That issue is central.

I return to corruption, the various issues about money flying around and recent comments about bags of gold and so on. The key requirement with that sort of issue is transparency and knowing, if money is to be transmitted in this rather primitive way, that it is at least going to good causes and not to evil and secret causes. Transparency should bring those things out.

On the overall corruption situation, though, I cannot be all that cheerful. Tremendous pledges were made at the Kabul conference, to which I referred, about the need for reducing and eliminating corruption, but on the Afghan side, frankly, not much progress has yet been made. The so-called “high office of oversight”, a sort of Afghan anticorruption commission, was set up, but in our view it needs to play a stronger co-ordinating role than it does. On our side, we helped to fund the major crimes task force, which was set up last November, a year ago, and that has had some success and has got some prosecutions and convictions. That is a sign of advance. Then there is the Monitoring and Evaluation Committee which has now been set up, but that, too, needs to get started and really get going. Until these things are operating really effectively, we cannot be at all complacent about the corruption situation.

More generally, perhaps I should have begun by saying that I very strongly welcome the support from not only the noble Baroness, who is deeply experienced in these matters, but her party, for the general trend of what we are trying to do in Afghanistan. This proves that we are in this as a nation and determined to see these matters through.

She asked whether I am confident about the timetable to ensure that there will be no combat troops by 2015. We are confident that things are going the right way, that progress is being made and that this is a realistic timetable. We think that that can be done. There may be training units left in Afghanistan after 2015, but we are absolutely convinced that it makes sense and is strategically correct that by 2015 there will be the withdrawal of all combat troops. We think that that schedule makes a great deal of sense and fits into the whole pattern of the gradual transfer of security and general administration to the Afghan people and the Afghan security and police forces.

As to costs, I can confirm that the £200 million announced by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for International Development is completely insulated from the cuts. The noble Baroness wanted that assurance and she can have it. Regarding, the cost of the 320 additional support personnel for training and so on, I believe that that cost is separate from the £200 million and will not eat into it. I give her the assurance now and hope that I will not have to eat my words. She is quite right to say that if we start deducting those sorts of salaries and costs, it would rapidly erode the commitment. So I am giving her the assurance that the cost is separate.

She asked a number of questions about the election outcome and the results. I am not sure that I can be as helpful about those. We have been dealing with issues of fraud and we think that overall they do not invalidate the election—although I must confess that the figure of 1 million votes being fraudulent or irregular is formidable. However, we still think that the elections were held in challenging circumstances, although obviously, because of the invalidation of so many votes, the elections were not perfect. Despite all the logistical and security difficulties, it is right that the Afghans have exercised their right to have a say in the future of their country. Exactly how these results are going to come out, provisionally or finally, I cannot tell. So far as I know, no interpretation has been made by psephological wizards in the Foreign Office as to how it will all work out; therefore, I cannot be as helpful to her on that matter.

I hope that I have covered all the questions that she asked. Later on, I shall go over very carefully what she said and if there is any gap in my answers, I will certainly seek to fill it.

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[Lord Howell of Guildford]

On the second point, I beg the noble Baroness's indulgence. Did she ask whether there were serious discussions with the Taliban? I see that she is nodding. Whether discussions should open with the Taliban is a matter for the Afghan authorities. President Karzai has said very clearly that he would contemplate these discussions on certain conditions, which are pretty obvious. He wants to talk to people who are not determined to carry on killing and promoting violence, but who are anxious to see the creation and build-up of a stable and non-violent Afghanistan. If these sorts of conditions are met and sensible discussions can take place, they will. We definitely take the view that it is for the Afghan Government and people to decide how to conduct those sorts of talks. In short, this is an Afghan process. If we are asked to play a role in the process, we will consider it on its merits. I hope that that clarifies the matter.

The £200 million is a DfID programme for the development of a better Afghanistan. It is separate from the military commitments that we are determined to maintain in order to ensure that our troops have the best possible equipment at all times. These are separate matters. The DfID money is for the development and prosperity that we hope in due course to see in Afghanistan. I reiterate the point that the economy is beginning to grow at a very remarkable rate. This is a very encouraging sign amid the continuing difficulties.

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[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I wholly agree with the noble Lord: that must be right. The squeeze is on al-Qaeda in Afghanistan. It has had to move elsewhere and is more dispersed. The process is continuing and to abandon it now by withdrawing would be a regrettable and deplorable act.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, I will pick up on the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, about negotiations with the Taliban. My noble friend's response was somewhat at variance with the Statement, which clearly says that the UK will support a settlement for Afghanistan that meets six qualifying objectives: whether it is representative, upholds human rights and so on. The emphasis is on the UK supporting a settlement. Can my noble friend reassure us that if we are expected to support a settlement, some of the preconditions, such as upholding human rights and giving no one disproportionate influence, will be part of our endorsement of a settlement? It concerns me that we may say that these things need to happen for us to support the settlement, but then allow the Taliban to disregard the High Peace Council and these statements entirely.

My other question concerns media reports that ISAF and NATO are turning to the Russians for logistical support and assistance in Afghanistan. Can my noble friend tell us more about the accuracy of the statements, because this could have a rather perverse outcome on the ground, given Russia's previous history there?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I will tell my noble friend a bit more about the Russians in a moment. First, I will deal with the other question. I do not think that anything that I said is inconsistent with the Statement. I made it clear and repeat, first, that we regard this as an Afghan process and, secondly, that President Karzai has said that he is willing to reach out to all his countrymen, which I suppose must include a moderate Taliban, provided that they meet certain conditions. That obviously means cutting ties with al-Qaeda, ending violence and pursuing their aims peacefully within Afghanistan’s constitutional framework. We will support the President in that. I do not think that there is anything inconsistent in that view. However, the process is in the hands of the Afghan people and one hopes that it will lead to positive results in that some, and perhaps all, of these conditions will be met. However, we shall have to see.

I turn to the Russian position and the rather interesting things that have been said recently about that. First, my noble friend will know that the Russians have already been helping quite substantially. There is nothing new about Russian involvement and assistance in this matter. Perhaps I may give her the details. Russia already provides considerable support to the ISAF mission in Afghanistan, including additional helicopters and basic material supplies for the ISAF forces. The NATO Secretary-General has said that NATO is now in discussions with Russia on increasing that support. A decision on how Russia wishes to do this is obviously a matter for it. I agree with my noble friend that, when one thinks about the historical baggage and the irony of past situations, this is an unfamiliar, new situation. However, when I read about it, it struck me that it confirms that what the world is trying to do in Afghanistan is to eliminate a tremendous danger of instability arising from the al-Qaeda operations, which would affect everyone. Instability and failure in Afghanistan would be just as much a threat to Russia—and, indeed, to China and the great rising powers of Asia—as to Europe and America. Therefore, I was heartened by this support. Provided that it is of the right kind, that we learn the best lessons from it and that we learn from the Russians what lessons they have discovered from their own failures in the past, I think that it is a positive development.

[Lord Rowlands]

My Lords—

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[Lord Rowlands]

My Lords, can the Minister elaborate a bit further on the statement that the area under the control of the Government in Kabul is increasing? Can he tell us in how many provinces today it can really be said that the Kabul Government’s writ is running and that there is some kind of effective Kabul Government?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I believe that the answer is 14 provinces.

[Lord Wright of Richmond]

My Lords, is the Minister able to tell the House anything about progress or otherwise on controlling the poppy crop?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I cannot say very much, except that the earlier setbacks have to some extent been corrected and I believe that we are making progress. I should like to be able to give the noble Lord a far more detailed reply but I am not in a position to do so at the moment. I shall therefore do it in writing or at some other opportunity.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that the northern tribes in Afghanistan are getting extremely nervous about the talks with the Taliban? That of course means that the Pashtuns are being brought into the peace process and they are the people against whom, not very long ago, the northern people were involved in a very serious civil war, supported by the West.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

It is a yes and no sort of answer. It is certainly true that Taliban extremists have relations with, in particular, the Pathan or Pashtun tribes, but my noble friend must remember that the Afghan security forces consist of 43 per cent Pashtun and 42 per Tajik, who have been at odds in the past but are now working together. Therefore, while inevitably the position of the Pashtun and their readiness to work with the rest of Afghanistan to see a stable state emerge will always be the problem—and has been for 100 or 150 years; there is nothing new about this—the fact is that at the moment many Pashtun are working very well with the Tajiks and the northerners. If it comes to discussions with any kind of Taliban adherents, they will obviously be the ones who are more ready to be integrated and to discuss a positive future and who are less extreme than the inevitable wild small percentage who will want to go on killing to the last.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, on talks with the Taliban, there is a very delicate balance to be struck as regards preconditions. Although it is understandable that certain basic preconditions should be laid down, in talks of this kind it is essential to understand that the way to win commitment is in the process of the talks themselves. If you set too big an agenda of preconditions, that will become an obstacle to the process getting off the ground. It is a matter of how you generate the process to produce the commitment that you seek. On the Russian assistance that is now being provided, experience over recent years has, I am afraid, given a good deal of indication, if not evidence, that the Russian methods of operation in military matters are not always quite the same as ours in the commitment to win hearts and minds. Can the noble Lord provide firm reassurances that anything that the Russians do will not become counterproductive in this context?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, I can certainly assure the noble Lord on that. We would watch that very carefully indeed. It is difficult to separate the history from the view of post-Soviet Russia today. Russia is our friend, with whom we seek to have good relations, but the invasion of Afghanistan was a very brutal affair. Although some techniques used by the Russians were apparently rather good on the ground, there were brutalities as well. That is why many of the mothers of Russian soldiers demanded that their sons came home and got out of Afghanistan, which led to many other consequences.

On the negotiations and how they are handled, the noble Lord speaks with great experience of such situations. It is absolutely right that we have to achieve a balancing act in any negotiations of this kind as we come out of the violent phase and into the peace phase. My noble friend behind me has reminded us of the concerns of the northern peoples, particularly the Tajiks, and of the ancient jealousies between the different groups. All those things have to be balanced in any talks with the Taliban if they come about and if President Karzai is able to fulfil his willingness to reach out to all his countrymen, as he says.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the Statement and for the regularity of Statements to come. Does he agree that the Statement said not one word about the regional dimension of the Afghan problem and that that dimension—the attitude of the neighbours of Afghanistan—will become increasingly important as we move towards 2015? The willingness of the neighbours to commit themselves in binding legal obligations not to interfere will be one part of securing a future Afghanistan that is not prey to its neighbours, whether Iran, Pakistan, Uzbekistan or the other neighbours. Could he say something on that aspect and whether he agrees that, in future reports on Afghanistan, it would be helpful if the Government could say something about the effort that they are putting in to building up a structure around Afghanistan in which a post-NATO Afghanistan could live in tranquillity?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, I must agree with the experienced noble Lord about the regional significance. On how you get that into a Statement on the regular reports on Afghanistan, I am not so sure. I can certainly say, here and now, that we recognise that the region has an important role to play in supporting Afghanistan and in facing all sorts of major challenges, including combating extremism, terrorism, illegal migration, narcotics and many other things. We welcome the fact that Afghanistan is actively seeking to support its bilateral relations in the region; indeed, regional co-operation was a major theme of the London and Kabul conferences. I cannot for a moment disagree with the noble Lord’s point that this is part of the jigsaw. We must have effective regional support. The problems that are encountered across the Durand line—the Pashtun do not even recognise some of the international boundaries—the problems that Pakistan, which we need to give all the help that we can, has faced and the continuing malign policies of Iran are all very much part of the situation and all need to be examined. I will suggest to my right honourable friends that they elaborate on that in future Statements, although it would make these Statements even longer than they are already.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

My Lords, does my noble friend recognise that the Statement that he has made is very grave? The whole House has listened in a suitably sombre atmosphere to the account of the situation after—where are we now?—nine years, after 341 of our soldiers have died and a considerable number have been very seriously injured, and in which we have faced what in military terms might be described as a good deal of mission creep. We went to expel al-Qaeda and make sure that Afghanistan never again became a base for terrorism on a global scale. We have now picked up some enormously worthwhile objectives: the end of corruption in Afghanistan; full human rights for women in Afghanistan; the end of the drug trade, if possible; and proper electoral practices being fully observed. As one reads across that list, one realises the challenges that we now face. As the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said, certain neighbours are not interested in ISAF and NATO succeeding in their current ventures—the activities of Iran come into question. Against that background, are not the Government, supported by the Opposition, absolutely right that, as time is not on our side, we must get maximum momentum now for Afghanisation of the programme to get properly established at the earliest possible date?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am absolutely sure that that assessment is expert, well informed and right. It is our desire and intention to maintain momentum on a number of fronts. My noble friend talks about mission creep. In a sense, the narrow and single objective to start with after 9/11, which was that somehow al-Qaeda was to be crushed and Osama bin Laden captured from his hiding place, has widened into a much bigger issue. Of course, the context has widened as well. We have seen the growth of jihadist, extremist Islam; we have seen it spread into other countries. We have seen difficulties in neighbouring countries. We have seen the rise of obduracy in Iran. All those matters have unfolded while we are struggling. That merely confirms that in the 21st century, if we want a civilised, global and stable society, we will face many such struggles in future. They will not be over quickly; they will take a long time.

[Viscount Slim]

My Lords, I welcome what the Minister said and I was very heartened by what the noble Baroness said. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, is quite right: there is a big tribal problem in this area. However, if the Minister cared to go to Quetta and had a cup of coffee in one of the many cafes there—as he well knows, it is a Taliban rest camp—he would find that the cafe talk of the Taliban and al-Qaeda is, “These chaps talk about a surge. These chaps then talk about leaving. We’ve won”. That is very dangerous when we are talking about discussions with the Taliban or al-Qaeda. Is it not wise to get them on two knees—or certainly one—before we have those talks? We have examples in the Lebanon and in Gaza of what happens: Hezbollah and Hamas have got closely, cunningly integrated in government, cabinet, parliament and the workings of the city and the surrounding countryside. Their influence is immense. This will be the aim of the Taliban and al-Qaeda if they get their hands in any way on the Afghan Government, weak and corrupt as they are. This happy talk about, “Let’s all get round the table”, is very dangerous for ISAF, NATO and Britain. I would like to see full confidence that ISAF, Britain, America and the other countries are going to sort these chaps out—that we are going to win and only then will we talk. With everyone opening their arms and saying “Come and talk”, we are walking straight into a great problem for five to 10 years in the future.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I cannot for a moment question the wisdom and experience behind that either, except to say that one talks about winning and then, as we learnt in Iraq, one needs to talk about how the win is secured. As the former President Bush found in his famous observations, to win in the short term is something that can apparently be done on the surface. However, a win in the long term means that as we are, we hope, a civilised 21st-century globe, the nations within it— including our own—cannot afford to have a poisoning influence at the centre of things. Whether we like it or not, while we must be as forceful as possible in the military suppression of the violence and extremism, there will, in the end, have to be a state created in which those who may have been involved with or even inclined to support the violence and rebellion of insurgents in the first place have to start playing their role as proper citizens. They will have to be included, so I half accept what the noble Viscount says, but the obvious strategy is to press ahead with what we are doing. We are confident that we are making progress. Beyond that progress lies the possibility of politics and of social, civic and economic development. Then we will have a world in which Afghanistan will no longer be the appalling headache that it is now.