Council of Europe

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Dundee]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to promote active citizenship in Europe during their current chairmanship of the Council of Europe.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, our chairmanship priorities were outlined in my Written Statement of 26 October 2011. They include, among other things, reform of the council's work on local and regional democracy, which should assist in strengthening the citizenship role in member states.

[The Earl of Dundee]

I thank my noble friend for that reply. Can he affirm that our chairmanship will seek measures to improve the co-ordination of local democracy, including among the Council of Europe's separate branches for local government, non-government organisations and the Parliamentary Assembly itself? Can he also assure us that our chairmanship will recognise and encourage experience of good practice such as city diplomacy, where different cities and centres already improve their local results by working together on similar issues and problems?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The answer to my noble friend is yes on both points. The Council of Europe can have a major role in facilitating exchanges of the sort he described, and one priority of our chairmanship is to streamline and make more efficient the Council of Europe's work in the field of democratic local governance. Also, there can be real gains for local communities where those responsible for local services and the governance of towns and cities can exchange good practice and share knowledge and experience with their counterparts in other states, and that, too, we intend to encourage in our chairmanship.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, the European Union's Europe for Citizens programme concentrates mainly on town twinning, so we should avoid duplication in the Council of Europe, but the European Union programme also deals with communicating with citizens on the work being done by the European Union. Is not there a case during our presidency for informing the citizens of the wider Europe of the valuable work being done in many fields by the Council of Europe?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes, I am sure there is. The noble Lord is quite right: the Council of Europe covers about 800 million people, which is wider than the European Union. Of course there can be a constructive interchange and the work of each body can be promoted by the other to their mutual benefit.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that the so-called democratic deficit is developing in this country and in wider Europe, perhaps to be greatly exacerbated by the eurozone crisis? Is he aware that 2013 is to be the EU year of citizens in action? In that regard, will he assure the House that citizenship education will remain part of the core curriculum, as it has been since 2002, given that there are now questions as to whether it might be taken out of the compulsory core curriculum?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I very much hope—it is a hope rather than an assurance—that all those involved in these great institutions will work in that way. This switches the commentary from the Council of Europe to the European Union, which of course is different, but we all look back to the Laeken declaration, which urged the European Union to bring itself closer to the citizenry, and the Council of Europe is of course on the same sort of track. This is an age of the empowerment of citizens and, as some people say, of empowerment of the street, sometimes with good results and sometimes with less good results. In all cases, empowerment of the citizen, responsibility of the citizen, education and bringing home the potential role of active citizenry remain absolutely vital.

[Lord Tomlinson]

Does the Minister agree that at a time when we need some good news to be given by the United Kingdom to Europe, it would be appropriate during our chairmanship to ratify the European convention on combating violence against women? I know that the consultation process finishes at the end of March, but if they really get their skates on that will be something for Dominic Grieve to announce when he comes to the Council of Europe in April.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I agree that this would be a good aim. A number of areas need further consideration before a final decision can be made on whether to sign the Council of Europe convention on preventing and combating violence against women and domestic violence. As part of this further consideration, which is on very real and important issues, I am advised that the Home Office launched a consultation in December, about two months ago, on whether to create a new offence of forced marriage. The consultation period will end on 30 March and we will then be able to make a definitive decision in line with the hopes of the noble Lord.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

Following my noble friend’s question about the crisis in the eurozone, what is the Government’s policy towards unelected Governments of so-called experts in Greece and Italy?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I think that my noble friend will be the first to recognise that we have to leave the member states of Europe, and indeed the nations and democracies of the world, to decide how best to govern themselves. From time to time they call upon experts and technocrats to make up for the deficiencies of quarrelling democrats.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, I declare an interest as an honorary vice-president of the Standing Conference of Local and Regional Authorities of Europe. Will the Minister please give an assurance that during their presidency our Government will do everything to ensure that citizenship education includes the rights of Roma, Gypsy and Traveller populations within the countries of Europe? There is terrible discrimination in Council of Europe countries against these groups.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right that discrimination against Roma and concerns for the position of Roma are very important issues. As she knows, the secretary-general of the Council of Europe convened a high-level meeting way back in October of not last year but the year before. That was after the really chilling example of the French deportations of Roma and it produced the Strasbourg declaration on the treatment of the Roma. However, I fully agree with the noble Baroness that this issue should remain at the top of the agenda, and it is one that we should examine and promote very carefully and assiduously during our chairmanship.

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, if there really is a campaign called Citizens in Action, would the noble Lord urge whoever is responsible for it to look again at the title, which, to put it mildly, has a certain ambiguity about it?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am sure that the noble Lord, with his learning and skill, could contribute to better titles and labelling for some of these programmes.

Northern Cyprus

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharkey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of the United Nations Secretary-General’s comments on the lack of progress of talks on the future of Cyprus, whether they will now consider recognising Northern Cyprus.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, the United Kingdom remains committed to supporting the UN-led process on Cyprus. Although only limited progress was achieved at the latest round of talks between the two leaders and the United Nations Secretary-General, the process has not ended. The UN Secretary-General has called for a decisive move to reach a final agreement, and will provide a report to the Security Council at the end of February.

[Lord Sharkey]

My Lords, the Minister may recall that, writing in the Times on 8 November 2010, Jack Straw said:

“It is time for the UK Government to consider formally the partition of Cyprus if the talks fail”.

The talks he referred to did fail, as did the next and latest. In the same article, Jack Straw also said that,

“the chances of a settlement would be greatly enhanced if the international community broke a taboo, and started publicly to recognise that if ‘political equality’ cannot be achieved within one state, then it could with two states—north and south”.

Does my noble friend the Minister agree with Jack Straw on this point?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

No, I do not. Jack Straw is not a member of the current Government, of course, and his comments were made in a private capacity as an MP. The guarantor power, the UK, has undertaken by treaty to prohibit any activity aimed at promoting, directly or indirectly, either the union of Cyprus with any other state or the partition of the island; so I repeat—a pretty emphatic no.

[Lord Maginnis of Drumglass]

My Lords, I beg leave to take the opportunity to pay tribute to my late and dear friend, Rauf Denktas, whose courage and leadership frustrated EOKA-B’s Akritas and Ifestos plans for ethnic cleansing. After 49 years’ discrimination against Turkish Cypriots and 38 years of successive Greek Cypriot rejections of resolutions, including the 2004 Annan plan, is it not time for the United Kingdom to cease its systematic humiliation of Turkish Cypriots?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

On the first point, our high commissioner sent a letter of condolence to the leader in the north of Cyprus and to Mr Denktas’s family. I personally associate myself with those condolences, having had an opportunity to meet him in the past. I do not think that the other language used by the noble Lord is justified. “Humiliation” does not come into it. The aim, and it is a noble aim, is to see equality of treatment and the bizonal federal ambition for a peaceful Cyprus achieved, with all citizens on an equal footing. There is no question of humiliation being involved.

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, I start by expressing our agreement with the position that the Government have expressed this afternoon. It reflects a long-term policy and desire to see equality of treatment. I agree strongly with all those propositions. Does the Minister agree that if any process was inaugurated towards recognising Northern Cyprus, it would flow in exactly the opposite direction to any prospect of achieving the objectives that he has set out?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am just trying to fathom out that question. First, I thank the noble Lord for his agreement and support for what we are all trying to do. This matter rises well above political parties and differences. As I was reminded this morning, these negotiations have been going on for 43 years. It really is time that we encouraged, by every effort possible, a resolution of these differences for the island of Cyprus. The noble Lord says the pressures go in the opposite direction to everything that we are trying to achieve, but I am not sure they do. I think the pressures, throughout the world and certainly from the United Nations Secretary-General, are that there can be some reconciliation and resolution. The main issues involved are to how to share power; the question of property, which is very sensitive; citizenship; and elections. On all these, I think it is possible for there to be progress, although I have to admit that for the moment it has been very modest.

[Baroness Knight of Collingtree]

My Lords, I am chairman of the group for Northern Cyprus in this House and I recently led a delegation there at the invitation of that country. Since the Minister has mentioned the length of this dispute, will he also bear in mind that every one of those 43 years has meant pain and suffering? Even today, if a Turkish Northern Cyprus group should visit the south, even on a sporting occasion, it is set upon and viciously attacked. This situation goes on and on. Surely some really hard effort must be put towards ending it.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I fully agree with my noble friend. Of course, these are unacceptable conditions for any citizen. The whole aim of working for a comprehensive settlement must be to make all those kinds of treatments and suffering, and the anecdotes associated with them, a matter of the past.

[Lord Harrison]

My Lords, I renew my previous request to the Minister to ensure—

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that since the deadlock in the talks at the moment is at least half the responsibility of Mr Eroglu, it is pretty odd to be discussing the matter on the Order Paper today?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

First, I defer to the extreme knowledge of the noble Lord on this matter. It is very hard to apportion the blame. All the parties concerned say that they want to make progress. The Governments, as it were, of the countries concerned, Turkey and obviously Greece—which are not directly involved because clearly this matter must be left to the people of Cyprus to sort out—have indicated a positive attitude. We have a positive attitude, as does the United Nations, and we just have to take our opportunities as they come. At the moment, the talks of the other day have come to a halt, but the Secretary-General is pressing ahead. He has asked Alexander Downer to do more work and to create a review. If the review is positive, he has said that he would like to move towards a multilateral conference in late April. So there may be hope on this front, but I do not want to raise those hopes too high.

Hungary

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Monday 30th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the Government of Hungary and to the European Union in regard to the introduction and extent of Hungary’s new constitution.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, my honourable friend the Minister for Europe, David Lidington, has spoken to both his Hungarian counterpart, Ms Eniko Gyori, and to Commission President Barroso’s chief of staff, Johannes Laitenberger, about recent developments in Hungary. Mr Lidington outlined the UK position that we support the upholding of EU laws and encourage constructive Hungarian engagement to address any concerns raised as a result of the Commission’s analysis of recent legislative changes.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that encouraging reply. However, rather than just making technical changes to Hungarian legislation, as occurred when there was a problem with its media laws, can the European Union do something more substantial on these fundamental questions of democracy in Hungary to ensure that the principles of the European Union, and Hungary’s membership of it, are fortified rather than diluted?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I think that the intervention and the position taken by the Commission reflect some of that concern. As far as the UK is concerned, we urge the Hungarian authorities to be constructive and flexible and to honour their international obligations, as indeed we would urge any other fellow member of the European Union to do in similar circumstances.

[Baroness Bakewell]

Is the Minister aware of the degree to which the new Government in Hungary are already cracking down on free speech? The mayor of Budapest has sacked the director of the New Theatre there and appointed someone from the Jobbik party, and that same party is now challenging the country’s National Theatre. Some 70 figures in this country’s arts world have voiced their protest against such censorship. Will the Government back them?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

We certainly recognise all the concerns that the noble Baroness has put forward, and it is right that we urge change. The European Commission released its analysis of the compatibility of Hungarian legislation with the EU treaty obligations on 17 January. The acute concerns that the noble Baroness has mentioned are valid. We submit that the Commission’s approach is a sensible and constructive handling of the situation. That is our position.

[Lord Hylton]

My Lords, Hungary is also a member of the Council of Europe. Do the Government consider that the new constitution is compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights, particularly as regards freedom of conscience and freedom of association?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That is an important matter to consider and we will consider it. Obviously, a number of processes are at work here. We are dealing partly with the European Union and the Commission and partly with the track that the noble Lord has outlined and pointed to. We will focus on that as well.

[Lord Tomlinson]

Does the noble Lord, following on from the last question, recognise that we in the United Kingdom are in a unique position at present as we hold the presidency of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe? Does he share the views expressed last week in the plenary session of the Parliamentary Assembly by the Secretary-General, Mr Thorbjorn Jagland, who said that the situation in Hungary shames us all?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I certainly share the concerns, and I also share the hopes reflected in the noble Lord’s question—that in our chairmanship position we will be able to carry these concerns forward. The noble Lord is quite right to draw attention to that.

[Lord Hughes of Woodside]

My Lords, given that Hungary went through years of dictatorship under Nazi occupation and then through years of dictatorship under the Soviet regimes, would it not be surprising if the people of Hungary were not aware of that past and willing to fight very hard for their freedoms, and should we not assist them when they do?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Of course we should. Certainly speaking for myself, one of the turning points in my lifetime was when these countries, which were in effect enslaved under communism, came into freedom in the latter part of the last century. That was a wonderful thing. We played a good part in bringing it about and we must continue to fight for those freedoms. I agree with the noble Lord.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, given that there are prospects for further enlargement of the European Union—we have had much discussion about Turkey and other countries—would it not be appropriate to take a very strong line indeed with Hungary? Its Prime Minister has, in fact, played games with nationalism and democracy for quite a few years now, even before he became Prime Minister, through his party. The more clearly that the Council of Europe can give an indication that this is not acceptable for a member of the European Union, the more likely it is that other countries will look very carefully at it before deciding whether to move towards membership.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My noble friend is right that there is concern here, and it is a matter that both aspiring and current members of the European Union should closely follow and be engaged in. Hungary is a nation of many virtues and has been through many difficulties. We want it to continue and prosper as a free nation and not to be constrained by undesirable and unsavoury laws. We recognise that, and we have to work very hard on that basis.

[Lord Sewel]

My Lords, although it is right and proper to be positive and constructive in our relationship with Hungary at this difficult time, ultimately, what sanctions are available to the EU?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The sanctions are those that are available to the European Union as an organisation which requires certain standards that we adhere to very strongly—standards of behaviour, and moral, legal and social standards—throughout the European Union. That is the sanction available on that side. The Council of Europe also has powers to censure, and, indeed, challenge the continued membership of organisations within it. These are powerful pressures that need to be used in a balanced way and with the right approach. That is the situation which we are now grappling with.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords, is there not a problem here which has to be resolved? On the one hand, the people of Hungary have decided to have a Government and a new constitution that do not fit in with the rest of Europe. On the other hand, the European Union cannot possibly accept a Government of Hungary who have a constitution that is not in accordance with its views and background. How do we resolve the problem? Who is going to win in this—the electorate of Hungary or the European Union?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I do not quite see it in that sort of Manichean analysis between the European Union and Hungary. I see that there are certain objective standards of good government and free government, and the freedoms that we all fought for during all our lifetimes, and that these should be upheld. The European Union is a repository of those freedoms, as is the Council of Europe. When those standards are being departed from or flouted in any member state—indeed, we can extend this to organisations outside Europe, such as the Commonwealth—then all pressure should be brought to bear. It is not just a question of the European Union versus Hungary; it is a question of the proper rule of law, good governance, democracy and the core values and principles that we stand for and have fought for being adhered to in every possible way.

EU: Treaties

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Monday 30th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the intergovernmental treaty presently under negotiation in Brussels will eventually become part of the structure of the European Union treaties.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, I think we can all cool down now. It is the prerogative of any member state to suggest additions to the European Union treaties. Any addition, including the proposed intergovernmental treaty, would need to have the agreement of all 27 member states.

[Lord Liddle]

I thank the Minister for doing his best in that reply. However, with all his experience of European matters stretching over five decades in politics, would he please explain to the House how the Prime Minister can one month take Britain out of the room, claiming that the proposed treaty is a threat to our vital national interests, and then the next month appear to want to wave it through, declaring that he does not mind at all if the intergovernmental treaty, of which we will not be part, makes full use of the EU institutional machinery? Is it not true, and does the Minister not agree, that really the only way to protect Britain’s vital national interests is always to be properly at the table in the room and not walk away, and that the only reason that the Prime Minister cannot do what is right for Britain is that his main concern is what he can get away with inside a divided coalition and a divided party?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I think that the noble Lord, in his enthusiasm for these matters, is getting a bit confused. This is an intergovernmental treaty; it is not going forward inside the European Union. The British Government are anxious that there should be orderly development of the eurozone and that obviously it should not collapse into chaos. Nevertheless, as I think the noble Lord himself has written, it has “design flaws” in it—I think those were his words—and therefore there has to be caution and care about the whole way in which it is carried forward. Certainly, the UK does not want to be involved in a treaty that supports a flawed system. We want to be supportive of a design for the future which is sustainable and which brings prosperity, not division, to Europe. That is the position. What is the role of the European Union institutions? We do not want to throw sand in the machine. If some of them can usefully be used in the aim of building a better euro system, we will support them, but we are reserving our position on exactly which institutions should be used and how they should be used. Our general attitude is supportive and constructive, and we are involved, as ever, in the machinery of building a prosperous and competitive Europe and a good single market. These remain our aims and we are taking a leading position on them.

[Lord Taverne]

My Lords, is the report in the Financial Times correct that the Government are giving a measure of support—it seems somewhat conditional—to the idea that those who signed the intergovernmental treaty can use the institutions of the community, including the Court of Justice? Does this have the support of the whole Cabinet, including the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions? Secondly, in his evidence before the House of Commons Select Committee on 11 January, the Chancellor said that the Government, in December, would have preferred to sign the proposed treaty had it included safeguards to protect the proper regulation of the City. Since the new treaty now includes safeguards that prevent it applying to the single market, what prevents the Government taking further steps towards re-engagement in Europe and signing the treaty?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

There are two points there. As I said earlier, we have reserved our position as to which institutions of the EU as a whole should be usefully deployed in supporting the policing of this intergovernmental treaty. We have reserved our position on that. The report in the Times sounded a bit further forward than that and is not correct.

As to the Chancellor’s views, he has made it clear all along that a treaty that was going to reinforce a eurozone that was sustainable and which met a whole range of conditions, including full implementation of the October agreements, solving the Greek debt problem, recapitalisation of the banks and a proper liquidity structure throughout Europe, was the kind of thing that we would have supported, but that is not on the table at the moment. We will have to see how the intergovernmental treaty works, which of the existing 26 agree to it—not all of them may—and, as it proceeds, we will be supportive. But we do not want to sign up to the eurozone as it is because, as the noble Lord opposite said, and as all observers now recognise, despite their views to the contrary many years ago, the system is design-flawed.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, will the Minister say what provisions, if any, of the intergovernmental agreement on the table in Brussels today are objectionable to the British Government? Will he confirm that even were we to sign that agreement and it became an amendment to the Lisbon treaty, none of its provisions would impose obligations of a legally binding kind on the United Kingdom unless and until we join the eurozone?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord’s last words are the key to the matter. The treaty on the table is designed for the 17, although others may go along with it. It will be debated in the various Parliaments. It is designed for the 17 and involves degrees of surveillance and control that are not congenial from the British point of view; we believe that we can best proceed not by being within and making constant objections and delaying the whole process of the 17 that want to go ahead, but by being supportive from outside. That is the position, which seems perfectly sensible and constructive.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, do the Government agree with their own lawyers who have advised that it is illegal to allow the ECJ to police something that is not in the treaties—in this case, the proposed fiscal compact’s debt brake rule? Would it not be wiser to insist that the eurozone follows its own law in the hope that that brings an orderly end to the euro, with a return to national currencies at agreed initial exchange and interest rates? Is that not the only sensible way forward?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord is letting his vivid imagination roam into the future. We have not reached the situation that he describes; perhaps we never will. I have made it clear that we reserve our position on how and which institutions should be used and how they may usefully be used to police the new intergovernmental treaty. These matters are yet to be decided; the position, I repeat, is reserved.

Pakistan

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Monday 30th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmed]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the Government of Pakistan regarding the democratic process in that country.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, between 11 and 13 January my and noble friend Lady Warsi visited Pakistan, where she called on Prime Minister Gilani and Foreign Minister Rabbani Khar. She expressed the UK view that a strong, stable, constitutional democracy was in the interests of Pakistan. We are following the political situation in Pakistan closely. We want Pakistan to enjoy credible elections that respect the constitution and help ensure stability.

[Lord Ahmed]

I thank the Minister for his reply. Does he agree that it is important for any democratically elected Government to show respect for law, the courts and public opinion, and to reject corruption, nepotism and bribery? Therefore, does he also agree that it is better to work with national institutions such as the civil service and the army to modernise and reform them rather than criticising them in public? Finally, will he help the Government of Pakistan try to negotiate some sort of peace deal with the Taliban in Pakistan?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

From the British point of view, the sentiments about how democratic Governments should develop are admirable. There are certain matters inside Pakistan that it is not our business to be concerned with or to solve; they lie with the people of Pakistan. However, the general principles that the noble Lord, Lord Ahmed, outlined are the right ones. Dealings with the Taliban, too, are a matter for the Pakistan Government. There are delicate and important areas where contact with the Taliban appears to be developing internationally. This may be part of the progress and help needed to see Afghanistan get on a better path.

[Lord Hussain]

My Lords, since Pakistan has been ruled by military dictators for a long time, and the present Government are the first in 35 years to complete four years in office, the lack of democratic continuity has weakened the state institutions. How can the Minister's Government help create an environment in which the democratic process will continue uninterrupted in Pakistan?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The best way is the way which we are using: namely, playing a very forward part in assisting social, educational and institutional development in Pakistan. Pakistan is the largest recipient of United Kingdom aid: it will work out at about £446 million over the next three years to 2015. We have a huge programme of bringing more children into school—another 4 million out of the 17 million in Pakistan who still do not go to school. We are also playing a major role in other, very valuable social developments. Those are the conditions in which the better democracy that my noble friend rightly wants—and we all want—is most likely to grow.

[The Lord Bishop of Norwich]

My Lords, as we approach the first anniversary of the assassination of Shahbaz Bhatti, the Christian Minorities Minister, in Pakistan, does the Minister detect any signs of hope that Christians and other minorities will be able to play their fullest and most active part in the democratic process there?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The right reverend Prelate rightly reminds us of a particularly horrific thing; and there have been other horrific murders as well. None of them is welcome. He asks whether I am optimistic and can offer reassurance that things will improve. We will do our best to support the development of a more peaceful, balanced and democratic Pakistan in every possible way; a Pakistan that tolerates faiths and removes the stain of attacks on minorities, including horrific attacks on the Christian community such as the ones that occurred. However, it would be misleading if I stood at the Dispatch Box and sounded optimistic notes about the future, which is still very precarious for all these faiths.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, I commend the Minister for dealing with three out of four of today’s Questions in such detail. Will he confirm that he will still receive only his basic salary and not a performance bonus? Is that not an example to others?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I cannot confirm that because I do not receive a salary.

[Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville]

My Lords, does my noble friend welcome the recovery in Pakistan cricket? Does he further think that it would be a happy conclusion to the present series if we won the last test?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

In seeking a positive side of developments in Pakistan, I certainly had in my notes that its cricket was coming along quite well, but like my noble friend I rather hope that in the next round we do a little better.

EU: Disintegration

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Thursday 26th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have contingency plans for the disintegration of the European Union.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, the Government do not envisage the disintegration of the European Union. The United Kingdom remains a full member of the EU and we will continue to work hard with our many allies throughout Europe to advance our national interests, as well as those of all other EU member states.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, both Chancellor Merkel and President Van Rompuy have said that if the euro breaks up, the EU itself will follow suit. In case they are right, should we not plan to develop our trade and ties with the countries of the future, most particularly and obviously with the Commonwealth? Secondly, should we not be encouraged in this initiative by the knowledge that the EU was supposed to bring peace and prosperity to Europe, whereas in fact it has brought—

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, that is now wishful thinking. The EU has in fact brought austerity, slump and civil unrest. What is the EU for? Why do we need it at all now?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, we have to be clear-sighted about the future. In one respect the noble Lord is right: all the great growth in new consumer markets, and the areas in which we must succeed as a nation if we are to maintain—let alone increase—our living standards, tend to lie in the emerging powers of Asia, Africa and Latin America. That is where my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has emphasised all along that we must develop our commercial, economic and political clout in order to survive. In that sense the noble Lord is right. However, at the same time, Europe is our neighbourhood and our biggest market. It is full of innovation and potential for the future. There are eurozone difficulties—no one denies that—at the moment, although with the European Central Bank now issuing unlimited three-year loans to all banks in trouble, there is at least a breathing space ahead on the question of the eurozone itself.

As to the specific matter of the Greek debt structure and how it will be resolved in the next few days, I really could not comment. However, one obviously hopes that it will be an orderly affair.

[Lord Dykes]

My Lords, if an aspiring Tory candidate for the other place decides to deny that he is Europhobic to the local party, he will not be selected. That means, logically, that UKIP is not fit for purpose, so will it not disintegrate much quicker than the eurozone recovers from its own crisis?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am not sure that I quite get the ins and outs of all that. Generally, I hope my noble friend agrees with me that Europe is our neighbourhood but the world is our market, that we must have a balanced and sensible approach in developing good relations with a European Union which obviously requires reforming and modernising to meet the 21st century, and that we must also adjust our own nation to meet this new international landscape.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, is it not a bit thick to blame the euro for our economic troubles when the Government are doing all they can with their own economic policies to destroy our economy?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I hear the view of one very learned economist but, as he knows, I think probably better than many economists, there are many different views, and that is very healthy. All economists tend to disagree with each other on these matters. Indeed, when they agree, they are usually wrong. As an ex-economist—a renegade economist—I am afraid that I have to disagree entirely with the noble Lord. I believe that our policies are the right ones to move us out of the colossal difficulties we face not only over the eurozone but the gigantic debt mountain that we were left by the previous Government.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, on this Australia Day, will the Minister confirm that he is well aware that the ties with the Commonwealth are already very strong and that everyone believes they will continue to be so?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes, I can confirm that I am well, well, well aware of that. The Commonwealth is one of the great networks of the future and we are proud to be members of that network. Indeed, it provides a gateway to many of the great new markets that I was talking about a moment ago.

[Lord Kinnock]

My Lords, in the interests of equipping members of this noble House, can the Government arrange for the provision to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, of a sandwich board with, “The end of the world is nigh” written on one side and, “Stop the world, I want to get off” on the other? Is it not true and does the Minister agree that the United Kingdom’s best interests are in remaining a strong member of a modernising European Union in order that we can effectively deal with what the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, calls “the countries of the future”—notably those in Latin America, China and India? They really respect and take us seriously because we are participants in the EU.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I mostly agree with the noble Lord that our European membership is very valuable in promoting trade interests and access to new markets. At the same time, the bilateral links on the Commonwealth network have their part to play. Therefore, as usual, the answers lie in a number of directions, and if it is a question of sandwich boards, the glory of this House is that we tend to avoid simplicities and single answers and see that in many of these areas the answers are complex and multifaceted.

Lord Triesman: My Lords, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, our concern relates to the Government’s plans to improve cohesion with European partners. Last week, the Minister told me that my view was itself too dramatic. However, a week of discussions with other European missions has suggested to me that it was not. What preparatory discussions did the Prime Minister have with the Heads of Government to prepare them for the steps he took at the December Council? What instructions were given to our ambassadors throughout the EU to prepare other Governments for the steps that the Prime Minister took at that Council?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The details of this have been set out, particularly by my right honourable friend the Minister for Europe in front of the Lords European Union Committee the other day. I recommend that the noble Lord reads them. They are very detailed and answer his question very closely. Broadly, however, the preparations were of course there but had to be conditional on the initial drafts of what was going to be, and now is becoming, the intergovernmental agreement. It was presented in the first instance in December as a treaty for the 27. The draft of that was available only 24 hours before the actual meeting, so inevitably there had to be some last-minute reactions and adjustments, but at the end of it all it was perfectly clear that the safeguards sought by the Prime Minister were not going to be available and that haggling over an intergovernmental treaty that other members wanted to achieve rapidly would have been very disruptive. The best way was simply to say that we did not wish to be part of it, and that is what happened.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, if we are so influential in Europe, what are the Government doing to ensure that the financial framework matches the plans for 2020? At the moment, the common financial framework has not been adjusted to the 2020 planning, particularly regarding the work on the common agricultural policy, where a huge amount of funding continues to go into non-innovative processes.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Well, we are. The Government and many outside government continue to work to strengthen and reform all aspects of the European Union. The common agricultural policy is by no means set in concrete and certainly requires reform, as do infrastructure fund arrangements and many aspects of financial regulation, all of which can be improved. We are working away at those things all the time.

Falkland Islands

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, the Statement to Parliament of my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary on 10 January outlined our response. We have issued our strongest objections to the decision by the Mercosur countries to deny access to Falkland Island flagged vessels. While we do not accept that the decision has any basis in international law, our priority has been to ensure that the trade and commercial links between the Falklands and South America are not compromised by this political declaration. We have achieved this.

[Viscount Montgomery of Alamein]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that interesting reply. Does he agree that it would be desirable to restart direct discussions—not negotiations, since there is nothing to negotiate—with Argentina, since it is at Argentina’s behest that this action has been taken?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

If I might alter slightly what the noble Viscount has said, no action has been taken. Brazil, Chile and Uruguay have all agreed to continue welcoming shipping if it is flying the British Red Ensign flag, which these ships fly. If there is an intention of action, that action has not led to any results at all. As for talking to Argentina, we have said all along that we are anxious to have sensible and creative discussions that could be of assistance to Argentina itself in the longer term, so long as we respect the wishes of the Falkland Islanders, which must be paramount in accordance with international law.

[Baroness Hooper]

My Lords, what steps are being taken by our splendid ambassadors in the region to counteract the tactics of the president of Argentina’s Government in persuading Argentina’s neighbours to support its claims of sovereignty in this way? In other words, what advice is the Foreign Office giving to ambassadors on the ground to prevent other countries following suit?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I think we have been a little ahead of the game. Obviously, the intention of Argentina was, sadly, to obstruct the movement of Falkland Islands shipping. Before that could happen we secured, for a start, the full assurance of Brazil, Chile and Uruguay that they would continue to welcome shipping flying the British ensign flag and would not interfere with trade. We have every reason to believe that the same attitude will prevail in all other ports where Falkland Islands shipping may call. However, we have taken action. Our ambassadors have moved very quickly and we are, as I say, ahead of the game.

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, following the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, would the Minister agree that the best form of soft security for the Falkland Islands is very good, strong British relations with the South American neighbours of Argentina? Can he give us an update on what has happened to British relations with those countries and why this matter has come forward as it has in relation to Falkland Island flagged vessels? In particular, what has happened, since the present Government took office and since President Rousseff took office as the new president of Brazil, to the excellent relations that the British Government had with Brazil under the Labour Government and President Lula da Silva?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

As far as relations with Latin America generally are concerned, I can safely say that where excellent relations existed before they have been built on and are even more excellent now. Considerable effort has been made in renewing and expanding our relations with Latin America. My right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary was in Brazil the other day on a highly successful visit. My honourable friend Mr Jeremy Browne, the Minister of State, constantly visits Latin American countries, and visitors have come here with whom I and others have liaised very closely. We feel that we have a very good developing relationship, which includes the expansion of our embassy facilities and capabilities in the region.

There are many theories as to why agitation and tension have arisen over this matter. Many experts point to the possible discovery of commercial deposits of oil around the Falklands. It is a great pity that Argentina bowed out of the hydrocarbons declaration, which would have enabled it to benefit from these developments on the oil front. However, it decided to stand aside from this and, instead, to complain and apparently grow angry at what is happening. That may be one reason.

[Lord Wright of Richmond]

My Lords, can the noble Lord tell the House what discussions we have had with our European Union colleagues, particularly our Spanish and Portuguese allies, to enlist their support with their Latin American friends to oppose this ban?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

We keep in constant touch with all our EU colleagues on this matter and have had considerable understanding and support. Inevitably, there are different perspectives but the general acceptance is that in international law the Falkland Islands people have the right to have their wishes respected and that any development in the future must be guided by those wishes. If they wish that to change, it will change; if they do not wish it to change, it will not change.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

Will my noble friend tell the House whether the reports are accurate that almost all the ships that are now banned from visiting Mercosur ports while flying the Falklands ensign are owned by Spanish shipping companies? In light of that, are we having discussions with the Spanish about the commercial damage which is clearly being done to them through this ban? Are we having discussions with Chile, as President Kirchner has asked the Chilean Government to ban commercial flights to the Falkland Islands?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

We have had discussions with Chile of a thoroughly positive nature. It is one of the countries that has agreed to accept ships flying the British Red Ensign. I cannot comment on the ownership of some of these ships. I have seen rumours in the media but I have no further information on that matter.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, while jaw-jaw is better than war-war, as Churchill said—the great man died 47 years ago today—there is no doubt that the world is extremely dangerous. We have seen the events of the Arab spring and in Libya and tensions in the Falklands. Will the Government look at their reduction in defence spending bearing in mind these very serious risks?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The question of our capability and abilities to meet the world’s tensions are under constant review. Some of these involve military and others soft power deployments. However, the noble Lord is absolutely right that dangers are springing up. Later this afternoon this House will have to deal with another one that he did not mention—that is, the situation in the Strait of Hormuz.

Iran

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, I should like to repeat the Answer to an Urgent Question in another place.

“Mr Speaker, yesterday I attended the European Union Foreign Affairs Council in Brussels, where member states agreed a new and unprecedented set of sanctions against Iran. These include a phased oil embargo, a partial asset freeze of the Central Bank of Iran, measures against Iran’s petrochemical sector and a ban on Iranian transactions involving gold. This is a major increase in the peaceful, legitimate pressure on Iran to return to negotiations over its nuclear programme. It follows the financial measures that the United Kingdom imposed on 21 November and the widening of EU measures on 1 December.

Sanctions measures, often close to those of the European Union, have been adopted by the United States, Canada, South Korea, Norway, Switzerland and Japan. These are in addition to the sanctions imposed by the United Nations Security Council itself. The Australian Foreign Minister has already announced this morning, at our joint press conference, that his country will replicate these new EU sanctions, and we will urge other nations around the world to do the same.

Iran is in defiance of six UN Security Council resolutions that call on it to suspend its uranium enrichment programme and to enter into negotiations. Its recent decision to enrich uranium to 20 per cent at an underground site at Qom demonstrates the urgent need to intensify diplomatic pressure on Iran to return to negotiations. This is a programme that can have no plausible civilian use and which Iran tried to keep secret. The International Atomic Energy Agency has expressed serious concerns about the possible military dimensions of Iran’s nuclear programme, most recently in a report last November, and Iran is now in breach of 11 resolutions of the IAEA board of governors.

Sanctions are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. Our objective remains a diplomatic solution that gives the world confidence that Iran’s nuclear programme is for purely peaceful purposes. We are ready to talk at any point if Iran puts aside its preconditions and returns to negotiations. Iranian Vice-President Rahimi was reported as saying in December:

‘If sanctions are adopted against Iranian oil, not a drop of oil will pass through the Strait of Hormuz’.

However, it must be borne in mind that 95 per cent of Iran’s oil exports, representing over 80 per cent of its foreign trade earnings, transits the Strait of Hormuz. It is very much against Iran’s interests to seek to close the strait to oil exports.

Britain maintains a constant presence in the region as part of our enduring contribution to Gulf security. The Royal Navy has been conducting such patrols since 1980. At the weekend, HMS ‘Argyll’ and a French vessel joined a US carrier group transiting through the Strait of Hormuz. This was a routine movement but it underlined the unwavering international commitment to maintaining rights of passage under international law. Any attempt by Iran to block the strait would be both illegal and unsuccessful.

We call on Iran to answer the questions raised by the International Atomic Energy Agency; to adhere to UN Security Council resolutions; to suspend its enrichment programme; and to return to the negotiations that are the only way of reaching a peaceful and long-term settlement to its dispute with the international community”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, that was a formidable list of questions. I will seek to answer them all as best I can. If I leave any out, I know that the noble Baroness will understand and we can correspond later.

The first question on which she rightly focused is how much international and global support there is for this programme. Clearly, if embargoes are undermined by other countries continuing to trade, this weakens the situation. We must be realistic. The agreements are with the list of countries that I read out and with the EU in a very united form. However, the big consumers of Iranian oil tend to be in Asia, particularly China and Japan. How much support can we expect from them? The Japanese have indicated that on a phased basis they would be able certainly not to increase any imports from Iran and possibly to run them down. Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao has indicated—indeed, within my hearing in Abu Dhabi last week—his country’s strong opposition to Iran acquiring nuclear weapons.

From that it ought to follow that China will be realistic about not increasing and maybe reducing its imports of oil from Iran. Statistics indicate that China has already run down its imports to some extent, and we will have to see how that develops, but very clear messages have been conveyed to the People’s Republic of China that as a responsible world power and a member of the WTO—and in its own view and those of others, a burgeoning superpower—it has to behave in a constructive and responsible way, in line with its own wishes to prevent Iran becoming a nuclear power.

Other countries involved are big customers of Iran, including India, from which I do not think there have been any indications so far on this matter. There are also smaller customers such as Sri Lanka. However, the big customers are the two countries I have mentioned, and their reaction has been as I outlined in my previous few comments.

The Russian position has been shifting, but I am not sure that I can comment on the detailed proposals made on 18 January to which the noble Baroness referred. I shall certainly examine that further, but if pressure is going to be effective in bringing Iran back to the negotiating table, the full support of the Russians is clearly also required. We are working on that as hard as we can.

Public opinion in Iran is very hard to assess. We all read reports of great differences of view in high circles in Iran between the mullahs and Mr Ahmadinejad, but it is hard to assess these things. My own judgment, which I think is shared, is that generally Iran feels that it has a right to develop a nuclear capability and will press ahead. It will take a lot of pressure, which is now being mounted, to bring Iran back to the negotiating table to discuss how its actions can be confined to civil nuclear power, in accordance with the IEA regulations rather than in defiance of them.

The noble Baroness asked about our defence capability. HMS “Argyll”, as my right honourable friend said, moved to the area at the weekend. The naval presence in the Gulf has been continuous for a long time and is contributing to security. Your Lordships can rest assured that all necessary contributions to the forces, which include a major American force and French ships, will be entirely what is required to meet the situation—the situation being the threat from Iranian Ministers that they would attempt, if they could, to block the Strait of Hormuz. That would be an illegal act blocking an international trade round, and will be prevented and resisted.

Oil-consuming countries face problems because some have been fairly reliant on Iranian oil. That is less so in Europe, as I have indicated, although Greece has a heavy reliance, and it is for that reason in particular that this embargo on oil is being phased in over a number of months up to 1 July, rather than being brought in instantaneously. Iran therefore has these problems. Italy is importing Iranian oil as a repayment for previous exports, and that too will have to be phased in. Japan will also need a phasing-in operation, although it is not exactly clear at what pace that will happen.

The noble Baroness mentioned contingency plans. We certainly have contingency plans, both at the financial level and in relation to the flow of oil and other energy supplies. Indeed, there are contingency plans in relation to the whole physical matter of closing the Strait of Hormuz. Should that be attempted, I believe it would be frustrated; but if it were to be attempted, there are other means of getting oil out of the Gulf area. There are the pipelines west to the Red Sea from Yanbu, and coming on stream—I do not think it is yet fully technically commissioned, but it is nearly ready—is the Fujairah pipeline, which crosses the corner of United Arab Emirates and bypasses the strait altogether. That can carry 1.9 million to 2.1 million barrels a day. So there are ways of moving oil—not at the volume that is going through the strait at present, which is about 17 per cent of the world's daily oil supplies, but many contingencies can be developed, and we are certainly participating in them at this stage.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that Iran is not currently in breach of its NPT obligations in seeking to enrich uranium up to 20 per cent? Does he therefore accept that a return to negotiations, including the offer on the table of Iran maintaining a civil nuclear capability under a heavy IAEA inspection regime to ensure that no weaponisation occurs, is what we should be aiming for? Does he agree with US Defense Secretary Leon Panetta’s comments last month that an Israeli attack could consume the Middle East in a confrontation and a conflict that we would surely regret? What discussions are we having with the Israeli Government to the effect that any action they might take will embroil them and the rest of the region in a wider conflagration that they may deeply regret?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

To answer my noble friend’s last question first, it has been the constant position of Her Majesty's Government that we would like Israel to come out fully and join the non-proliferation treaty if, as is widely alleged, it has nuclear weapons. We have not been given any firm facts on that, but it is an important aspect. As to Israeli action, that is constantly debated. Again, we have not been hesitant in making clear that action by Israel against Iran would lead to very dangerous developments. We take a very strong view that that is not the way forward and is at all costs to be avoided. That is the position vis-à-vis Israel.

My noble friend is absolutely right that one of Iran’s claimed excuses, shall we say, for pushing ahead—one of its reasons for defying IAEA resolutions and UN resolutions, as it has—is that it should have nuclear weapons because it says that Israel has a nuclear weapon. That reality must be faced. My noble friend is not entirely right in saying that Iran is not in defiance of resolutions; it is; it has broken resolutions in the past. I hope that I did not misinterpret what she said on that. This is the problem: we have a regime in Tehran that cannot be trusted and has been declaring that it was co-operating and collaborating with NPT and IAEA resolutions when it was not, as has been revealed by various alarming discoveries along the way.

[Baroness Afshar]

My Lords—

[Lord Gilbert]

My Lords, should we not all calm down a little about this? The Iranians think that they have total justification for possessing nuclear weapons. For the life of me, I cannot see any case against their having a nuclear weapon. Who on earth are they going to use it against? If anyone says Israel, you cannot imagine a more suicidal act for a country to perform than to launch a nuclear weapon against Israel. That would mean the total incineration of Iran. We ought to realise that with the Iranians we are dealing with people who deal in braggadocio, who say things they do not mean that sound great on television for local consumption. We should calm down—let them get on with it and waste their money.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord is pointing to what one would regard as a certain reality: people should not behave in a suicidal fashion. One hopes that he is right. Similarly, one hopes that what might be called black swan events and catastrophes do not suddenly develop, almost accidentally, out of the situation. The fact remains that it is very dangerous. The proliferation of nuclear weapons would not stop at Iran if it goes full tilt in that direction. There have been indications from a leading Saudi spokesman in the past few days that, should this kind of development occur, Saudi Arabia would have to consider its position on nuclear weapons, and proliferation would proceed. The noble Lord says that proliferation does not matter because somehow mutually assured destruction and mutual deterrents will prevail. He could be right but he could be disastrously wrong.

[Noble Lords]

My Lords—

[Baroness Afshar]

I declare an interest as someone who was born in Iran and still works very closely with Iranian academics. My worry is that in Iran views are very divided about nuclear weapons, but the moment there is a threat of sanctions and a threat against Iran, it is likely that even among those who are absolutely opposed—I work with the resistance movement—a great many would back the Government. The fear of Israel is very real, and the idea that there is one law for Israel and one for Iran is absolutely understood by Iranians. The idea that Britain will bring its Army or Navy will be seen as armed defence of Israel. That would undermine any negotiations on the table. It would be very much better if negotiations were conducted perhaps a bit more quietly and with less threat. As an academic, I know that we are suffering enormously because brilliant Iranian students who want to do postgraduate work in this country cannot do so. As someone who came to this country as a student I can tell you that sometimes we turn good.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Baroness speaks with a lot of experience and understanding in her analysis of the psychology of the Iranian policy-makers and the Iranian Government, which, as she rightly said, is a divided house in itself. All kinds of internal conflicts are going on inside Iran. As to the question of getting back to negotiation, that is something that we all want. The aim of this policy, as my right honourable friend in the other place has made clear this afternoon, is to bring Iran back to the negotiating table, and to do so in ways that will then lead to a sensible discussion of its nuclear programme and recognising its rights, if conducted properly and in accordance with NPT and IAEA resolutions and requirements, to have civil nuclear power. That is recognised, but negotiation there must be. Bringing Iran back to the table is the task. So far, doing that by saying, “Please come back”, and through the normal diplomatic niceties has proved totally inadequate. That is why we have come to the point when the pressure must be increased and the Iranians must be brought back to the table. Any suggestion that instead they will grow more violent and take action to close international waterways must be totally rejected and opposed.

[The Marquess of Lothian]

My Lords, will my noble friend tell the House what active consideration is being given by the Government to the proposal made this week by Prince Turki al-Faisal of Saudi Arabia that the international community should pursue the concept of a totally nuclear-weapon-free zone, properly policed, that would include both Iran and Israel?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

This is an idea, an aim and an ambition that the Government fully share. The idea of a WMD or nuclear-weapon-free zone in the Middle East is one to which we certainly subscribe, and this must be a longer-term aim. How we get from here to there is, of course, the problem. Prince Turki al-Faisal is an extremely wise and perceptive commentator and certainly I read very closely everything he had to say on the matter. That would be the ideal. How we would get from here to there would certainly include how we deal with the situation not only in Iran but also in Israel.

[Lord Luce]

My Lords, I fully support these robust sanctions. Will the Minister not agree that there seems to be an ineluctable slide towards conflict, which could erupt from an incident of any kind? Iran is a very important country with a remarkable history. Is there not a very strong case for telling the Iranians that we should resume negotiations not only on nuclear issues but on much broader matters of mutual concern in the region, and on bilateral relations?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

This kind of approach would be very good, if we could get Iran to recognise that it must conform to the IAEA requirements and if we could have some trust and reassurance that it is not moving surreptitiously to the full weaponisation of its nuclear programme. If that assurance was there and if Iran was prepared to talk, we could certainly develop closer relations with what, after all, is a very great country that deserves respect—although it forfeits it by some of its actions—for its history and prominence in the region, and we could move in that direction. However, to get Iran even to come to the table on that basis has so far proved impossible.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I regret to say that I very much agreed with the Minister when he rightly said that whichever part of the Iranian Government one looks at believes that Iran has the right to develop nuclear weapons. The problem with that is that it does not stop with the conflict with Israel; it drips into the conflict right across the Gulf, including, as he said, Saudi Arabia. Perhaps I may ask him about the short-term issue of access to oil. Can he tell us anything about Saudi Arabia’s undertaking to make up the shortfall in any Iranian crude, and whether its undertaking to try to hold the international price at $100 a barrel has been dealt with officially by Her Majesty's Government and that of Saudi Arabia?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

We cannot yet to talk in terms of undertakings, but there have been indications. Obviously it is up to Saudi Arabia and other major oil producers in the region, such as Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates, to undertake to make up the shortfall. The indications are that this will be possible but we are not yet at the stage where I can say that undertakings have been officially agreed; they have not.

There is also a problem of matching the quality of oil concerned. As the noble Baroness knows, although the Iranian oil that Greece, for instance, has been heavily reliant on is slightly sour, the make-up oil from Saudi Arabia would be considerably sourer and would carry a much heavier sulphur content as well, so there would be difficulties for refiners. The usual complexities that arise when one moves oil flows around inside the oil market would occur, of the kind that I have just described. Therefore, I cannot say that there is a neat package of additional oil supplies ready to come into place. One has to realise that the Iranian oil does not necessarily disappear; it will not stop being produced and will probably continue to enter the market, although one imagines at a certain discount in relation to the major customers such as China.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

My Lords, the effect of sanctions may be to cause opinion in Iran to coalesce behind the Government, the risk to which noble Lords’ attention has been drawn by an expert. Will the Government do everything they can as imaginatively as possible to make clear that we have no quarrel with the Iranian people and that the quarrel is purely with the regime? Will the Government also urge their European partners to avoid unnecessary irritants in relations with Turkey, a country which has enormous experience of peaceful coexistence with Iran and a country whose expertise and experience is extremely important to us at this difficult time?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I give a most emphatic yes to both those propositions. Indeed, in relation to the second one, it is very important that we work very closely with Turkey, which has indicated very clearly that the idea of Iran becoming a fully weaponised nuclear power is extremely unwelcome to it and that it will combine with the necessary actions and strategies to prevent that. At present, the main strategy is pressure through sanctions, but there are other tracks of diplomacy to develop as well. One can pursue more than one track in these matters, but this is the one that we are now engaged on, which we hope will bring results.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I endorse very strongly what the noble Lord, Lord Luce, said. Looking at the practicalities of the immediate threat, can my noble friend assure the House that there are adequate minesweeping capacities should the Strait of Hormuz be blocked by the Iranians?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My noble friend asks for assurances. I can give him assurances that all the necessary deployments and efforts will be made to achieve that. We are advised that it can be assured that any mines that are planted, for instance, by night or surreptitiously, will be very swiftly removed. There is the conviction that there can be no sustained blocking of the Strait of Hormuz and that any attempt to do so will be defeated. That is what I can tell my noble friend. To go beyond that to say that everything is perfect, nothing will be challenged and that there will be no difficulties would, of course, sound incredible, and I do not intend to give that assurance.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, the Minister said that there are no firm facts that Israel has nuclear armaments. Are there any firm facts that Iran has nuclear armaments? Has the European Union applied any sanctions against Israel? If not, why not?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord is raising the broader issue that we have touched on in these discussions and in many debates about the position of Israel and the position of Iran. On the second point, we are pretty sure that Iran is still short of achieving nuclear weapons, but we are also fairly well advised by the IAEA and other bodies that it is on the path to doing so. As far as the Israeli situation is concerned, I was stating the official position. Obviously, it is common talk that Israel possesses these weapons, but it has not officially asserted or confirmed that it does. Therefore, in terms of international facts—and I must use my words carefully—it cannot be asserted without question that it has nuclear weapons. That is the unsatisfactory position at present, and it is one from which we would all like to move. Of course, in the longer term, a middle-eastern nuclear-free zone would take us in that direction, but how we get there is the issue before us now and before all diplomats in the free world.

[Lord Clinton-Davis]

Is it not obvious, as the Minister said, that doing nothing and saying nothing is not an option at the moment? Is it not vital that Britain’s voice must be heard and that the Government are doing exactly that? Is there any indication of the Iranian Government acceding to the reasonable international pressure which is being employed at present? If not, is there any possibility of that in the future?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

We clearly hope so. That is the aim of the policy. At the moment it does not look like that. It may be in the next few days that, as has happened in the more distant past, the Iranian authorities will come forward and say, “Yes, let’s return to the negotiating table”. They may add all sorts of impossible conditions and qualifications that make that difficult, or they may see sense and, in the interests of the Iranian people—with whom we have certainly have no quarrel; I should have made that clear in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Kerr—they will begin discussions in a sensible, calm way on how we prevent the whole nuclear proliferation pattern running away into a horror story in the future for the Middle East.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, there is a very detailed calculation going on at the moment in the United States and elsewhere about the difference between the very bad impact of Iran having nuclear weapons, and about proliferation and so on, the impact of attacks on her nuclear system and what it is believed will be the short-term effects of these. Does the Minister agree that that is a very dangerous calculation, because the one absolute certainty is that when you embark on war, you have no idea where that will lead?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right. As Prince Turki, who we have already mentioned, said the other day, wars lead to more wars. Once we were in a pattern of violence and conflict—which might be reached by accident, which is a very terrifying prospect—there is no telling where the consequences would go. I think Prince Turki said that one consequence would be retaliation not just against the western powers but the entire Gulf state community and indeed all those who were deemed to have had any association with those who had done the attacking. Who knows where the consequences would lead? What we do know is that if we get to the point of violence, this policy will have failed and a new one will be required. That is something we are determined to avoid.

Somalia: Piracy

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 11th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what naval contribution the United Kingdom will make towards, and what advice they will give to British-registered vessels on, combating piracy near Somalia after the current monsoon season.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, the Government continue to provide support to the multinational naval operations off the coast of Somalia. For example, we provide the operational commander and headquarters for the European Union’s counterpiracy operation and we will provide a ship to the combined maritime forces throughout 2012 for counterpiracy tasking as part of the forces’ wider operation. The Government urge all shipping transiting the high-risk area to comply with the industry’s best management practice. The Department for Transport has also published interim guidance on the use of armed guards in exceptional circumstances to defend against pirate attacks.

[Lord Naseby]

Is my noble friend aware that despite the welcome news that he has given today the situation remains extremely worrying as the geographical area of the ocean covered by the pirates gets ever wider? Is my noble friend further aware that already 10 per cent of shipping is being rerouted around the Cape at a cost of £3 billion and it is forecast that that may rise to 30 per cent? Against that, should we not confront the pirates in two further ways: one by deploying UAV aircraft to pinpoint exactly where the mother ships are that support the pirates; and, having pinpointed them, surely the naval operations should go on the front foot and sink them rather than just react to situations?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My noble friend is quite right that this is a very serious situation spreading of course not only to the Gulf of Aden area, but out into the Indian Ocean and the west of Africa. He perhaps would accept that the statistics show—maybe because of diversion of shipping but for other reasons as well—that successful attacks fell dramatically last year. There were 127 attacks in 2010, 47 of which were successful, and by 2011 there were more attacks—150—but only 25 were successful. The success rate for the pirates in achieving their ugly objectives has been much reduced. Nevertheless, my noble friend is absolutely right that very firm action is required. The matter of UAVs is under consideration but there are difficulties, even for UAVs, in covering such an enormous area. We are talking about somewhere twice the size of Europe. On the question of vigorous action when these pirates are encountered, the Government believe that interim guidance is a strong first step, as initiated by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, in his discussions on these matters in Australia a few months ago. The details laid down are definitely an advance in dealing with pirates in a most vigorous manner, and rightly so.

[Lord Boyce]

I welcome the Minister’s comment that the Royal Navy will be providing a ship to support the anti-piracy operations off Somalia. The Minister will also be aware that the Navy has been unable to meet its full-time commitments for a duty ship over the past few months. Noting such other contingencies coming up, such as the potential closure of the Hormuz Strait by Iran, will the Government now recognise that they have cut back too far on the size of the destroyer and frigate force?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, the noble and gallant Lord will not be surprised at my answer that these matters are kept under constant review. We need to deploy in the most effective manner the forces that our resources allow us to deploy, and we will continue to examine all needs and priorities in that light.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, I am very glad that I gave way to the noble and gallant Lord because I thoroughly agreed with his intervention. If we are half-serious about dealing with this menace, should not the first and indispensable step be to cut off the flow of funds to the pirates? Every week literally millions of pounds are passed to the pirates from ship owners and particularly from underwriters. The largest share of this probably comes from underwriters in the City of London. The means used to pass the funds may be unconventional but the payments are perfectly legal. If we were to criminalise the payments and use the existing apparatus of criminal assets seizure legislation and money-laundering legislation to interdict them, would that not be a very substantial step in the direction of dealing with the problem?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I say to the noble Lord that actually the first step is to deal with the conditions on land that give rise to the piracy operation by sea; that is where we start. However, he is quite right that the flow of cash and finance is a very important part of this. We are working with Interpol and with the UN Office on Drugs and Crime to see whether we can be more effective in tracing the patterns of finance. It is not easy but it is certainly an area where we should concentrate.

[The Lord Bishop of Gloucester]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the work of the Mission to Seafarers, the world's largest provider of port-based humanitarian and welfare services for seafarers and their families, which has provided assistance to victims of piracy, especially in the region around Somalia? Will he consider engaging with the Mission to Seafarers to develop a model of support for families of hostage victims?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Yes, I say to the right reverend Prelate that that seems an excellent initiative and idea, and something that we will certainly consider most carefully.

[Lord Chidgey]

Will my noble friend reflect on the fact that in the past two years since 2009 there has been a sevenfold increase in the number of piracy incidents that have taken place off east Africa, according to the IMO; that there are some 2,300 crewmen being kept hostage at the moment, according to NAVFOR; and that the ransoms paid out in the past two years went up from $80 million to $135 million? In that regard, what will be the contribution of our Government to the conference on Somalia in London at the end of the month, and, more importantly, to the maritime security conference that will take place in Dubai next week?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My noble friend is absolutely right; these are two very important conferences. He was correct to mention the latter one, but I particularly emphasise his point about the conference on Somalia that has been organised for London on 23 February. It is a major initiative that will bring together all parties concerned not just with piracy but with the issues of what to do with the failed state condition we face in Mogadishu at the moment. The conference will be well attended and I believe that it will be extremely effective in focusing on the problems of the area, of which the piracy element is a very important part.

[Lord Tomlinson]

Will the Minister tell us something about what would be the greatest deterrent to piracy: namely, bringing pirates to justice? Deterring pirates is one thing but bringing them to justice is by far the most effective deterrent. Will he tell us whether the success rate in that matches the successes reflected in the earlier statistics he mentioned?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

A considerable amount is being done but I concede that it is not enough. The aims have been to develop prison transfer facilities in the Seychelles, where progress is being made; and also in Kenya, which has taken the brunt of the problems of dealing with captured pirates and bringing them to justice. We are working with the Seychelles to upgrade all operations, with both financial and technical support. We are working with the Kenyans and with Somaliland, which are willing to develop both custody facilities and judicial facilities. All these things are going on and are a very important part of the overall aim of defeating the piracy infection.

EU: December Council Meeting

Lord Howell of Guildford Excerpts

Wednesday 11th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Soley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what, if any, changes they envisage in the United Kingdom’s relationship with the rest of the European Union following the summit meeting of 8–9 December 2011.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, Britain remains a full member of the European Union and will continue to work hard with our many allies in Europe to advance our national interests as well as those of all other EU member states. Nothing arising from the December Council meeting alters that.

[Lord Soley]

I am grateful for that reply but, intentionally or unintentionally, at the December meeting the Prime Minister gave the very strong impression that Britain could never accept the concept of the ever closer union spelt out in a variety of treaties signed by the United Kingdom over many years. Will the Government give a clear answer, not least for that section of the Government led by the Prime Minister, as to whether we are on board for ever closer union, or do we reject that concept?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I think that most people looking at the 21st century have found the concept of ever closer union implying more and more centralisation as, frankly, yesterday’s stuff. This is not the way in which the European Union will strengthen its cohesion and flexibility in the face of the new international landscape. While certainly the events of the December Council struck a particular view in regard to the safeguarding of Britain’s interests in the light of the plans which are now going forward and in which we are participating for the new fiscal union and possible fiscal union treaty if one emerges, I do not think that there is anything very revolutionary or new about recognising in the debate on the reform and development of the European Union that ever closer union as a simple integrationist concept is out of date.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, I ask this question for future reference. Surely it is the case—perhaps the Minister could confirm it—that the central aim of Her Majesty’s Government in Europe is to make sure that we have no friends there whatsoever.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am afraid that that is upside-down thinking, because the enlightened view in Europe is that we should move towards the reform of the European Union in all aspects. Everyone agrees that maybe the time has come to revise its great purposes in the 20th century. I was fascinated by a remark made the other day by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, who I hope will speak in a moment on this issue. He rightly said that the old arguments for Europe will no longer do. We are in a new situation in which many intelligent people throughout the European Union realise that new approaches are needed. I am sorry that the noble Lord is not one of them.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the concept of ever closer union in the treaties was about an ever closer union of the peoples of Europe? Nothing that this coalition Government are doing would prevent a closer relationship between the peoples of Europe, but that does not imply the Governments of Europe for ever being bound in ever closer unions. On the financial transaction tax that France has agreed to pursue unilaterally, our understanding is that the German Government are reluctant to proceed unilaterally. Are we having conversations with the Germans on the effects of the tax should it be implemented more widely?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My noble friend is absolutely right about the first point. The peoples of Europe, the communities of Europe and the interests of Europe are binding more and more closely together in the internet age and in the age of the information revolution, but the question of how this resolves at governmental level is obviously much more complex. She is absolutely right about that. As far as the financial transactions tax is concerned—the so-called Tobin tax—Her Majesty’s Government’s view is that if this was a universal tax, the chances of which are frankly pretty remote, it would begin to make sense to apply it, but that if it was merely going to be for the European Union or even for selected countries in the European Union, it would not make much sense at all. That seems to be a view that increasingly the Germans are sharing.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, if what the noble Lord says is true, that everyone throughout the European Union agrees that there are better arguments for the future, why were we left isolated on 8 and 9 December? Why did nobody agree with us then?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The precise issue was that the safeguards against additional incursions into financial interests, of which this country holds a very large proportion in Europe, were not going to be agreed. This led my right honourable friend the Prime Minister reluctantly to say that he could not agree to the kind of treaty being proposed. The other 26 countries are looking at it—as are we, in participating in the current operations and examination—and are finding out whether it works for them. I am not sure that in the end either the 26 or even possibly all 17 countries will be really prepared to go along with every detail of the treaty so far. However, a new draft has been produced that already begins to adjust somewhat to the concerns that my right honourable friend voiced and that other countries have expressed as well.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, was the European Union not supposed to bring peace and—

[Lord Campbell of Alloway]

Is the noble Lord aware that this question of ever closer union could not be agreed at the Messina conference and could not be interpreted in the Rome treaty? As a result, a compromise amendment was made that the Court of Justice could deal with the matter, which is where we are today. We are now in the twist of a federal demand that we should remove, with other people, our residual sovereignty for imposed financial restriction, to which I personally object.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Of course, the European Court of Justice is applicable and is an instrument of the European Union treaties. Ad hoc arrangements and other co-operation arrangements that are not within the treaties would not be covered by the European Court of Justice. I was interested to see in the draft of the fiscal union treaty that is now circulating that the proposition that the ECJ should have precedence over national laws has been removed. I appreciate that my noble friend’s long-term considerations go much deeper, but it may be that here and now some of the concerns that he has expressed are being recognised.

[Lord Liddle]

Will the Minister bear with us as we continue with an old argument? Will he confirm that it is the clear policy of the Foreign Secretary and the coalition that there will be no attempt to repatriate powers from the European Union during this Parliament? Will he confirm that that is the Government’s policy and, if it is, how does he justify the Foreign Secretary permitting civil servants in his department to work with the new All-Party Group for European Reform to explore what powers might be repatriated? How is this Conservative initiative consistent with the policy of the coalition?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I do not want to play with words but I understood that in all parties, including the noble Lord’s party, and in the think tank with which he is closely associated, clear and forward-looking minds were looking at ways of rebalancing powers between Brussels and the member states as a whole—not just between Brussels and this country but between the European Commission, the European Council, the European institutions and the nation states. Again, there seems to be a very enlightened argument—of which I thought he was part, although he seems not to be so at the moment—that certain powers, particularly social powers and other detailed regulatory powers, would be far better administered close to the recipients, those in need of social care and those on the workshop floor, than by central organisations in Brussels. This is a sensible way forward and I am very glad that our officials are studying it closely.