Combined Authorities (Borrowing) Regulations 2018
Lord Jones Excerpts(5 years, 12 months ago)
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Lord Jones (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his exposition. He knows far more than I could ever know about these matters, even though long ago I served in three Administrations. Can he look at the helpful Explanatory Memorandum, at paragraph 3.3:
“The instrument does not give rise to minor or consequential effects outside England”?
I cannot cavil at that—surely it is exact. However, the Minister will know, because of his distinguished service in the National Assembly for Wales, that there are sub-regional economies that cross borders. I refer to my entry in the register of interests, and I instance the Mersey Dee Alliance in north-east Wales, Wirral, Cheshire and Ellesmere Port. It is a unique set-up, which seeks to advance the only cross-border economy in Britain. It is a successful economy, and those local authorities in north-east Wales and greater Chester want to advance matters.
I have a question for the Minister, who was a leader in the National Assembly for Wales over many years. Can he explain—if he can, after my tangential reference —why these measures are not appearing in Wales? Is he able to mention one equivalent in Wales of, say, the Mayor of Liverpool or the Mayor of Manchester?
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
My Lords, I draw Members’ attention to my interests in the register as a councillor in the borough of Kirklees in West Yorkshire and as a vice-president of the Local Government Association.
The regulation is a natural extension of the powers of the mayoral combined authorities, and in that light it is to be welcomed. The functions that will benefit from investment where the authorities choose to use the additional borrowing powers are significant and of strategic importance to the development of those combined authority areas.
I say all that because I am not criticising the fundamental issue of the borrowing powers. However, I am concerned that additional borrowing by the mayoral combined authorities will result in additional costs being passed to the constituent local authority. So will the prudential borrowing code of the constituent authorities be affected by the additional borrowing permitted under these regulations?
The direct accountability between the spending body, which is the combined authority, and the tax-raising bodies, which are the constituent local authorities, will be fairly obtuse. If these powers are extended in this way, how will local council tax payers and businesses have a clear and transparent explanation of the use of the revenues of local authorities by the combined authorities if, for instance, there is no direct benefit for that particular part of the combined authority area?
The Minister mentioned Sheffield City Region, which will be in the fortunate or unfortunate position on Friday morning of having elected a mayor who will have no powers and no resources because that agreement has yet to come to Parliament and before your Lordships’ House. It will be an interesting conundrum for the Minister and his department as to what the newly elected mayor of the Sheffield City Region—he or she—will do.
I have a final comment for the Minister. The extension of powers to the mayoral combined authorities in this way is positive, with the addendums that I have already referenced, but it begs the question as to the continuing divergence of the powers of local authorities that do not have these additional powers because they do not have combined authorities and metro mayors. That is beginning to grow. The differences are beginning to be obvious and there will be an issue that will have to be addressed by the Government in one form or another. Has the Minister any thoughts to share on that issue?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in the debate on these important borrowing powers. I welcome their participation; it is most helpful and reflects the general support we have had for the Government’s approach and the flowering of these combined authorities and mayoralties—particularly in the north and the Midlands—to seek to redress the great growth of the economy in the south and, to some extent, East Anglia. It reflects the importance that we attach to ensuring that there is strong economic development elsewhere.
First, I turn to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Jones. I thank him for his kind words and reflect on his distinguished service over a considerable period of time in Wales and, more broadly, in the Government in Westminster. He is right that these provisions are England-only, because the department is England-only, but he is also right that exciting and important things are happening in Wales and across the border between Wales and England, around the River Dee and Chester. Also, the North Wales Growth Deal looks to links with the northern powerhouse and the Borderlands Growth Deal encompasses southern Scotland as well as Northumberland and Cumbria. Working with the devolved Administrations in Edinburgh and Cardiff is very much on our agenda. I can reassure the noble Lord that I was in Wales just last Thursday, speaking to the Labour Economy Minister, Ken Skates, to discuss the Mid-Wales Growth Deal and possible links with the LEP in the Marches.
Lord Jones
Does the Minister agree that Mr Skates has made considerable advances in aiming for a better relationship between Whitehall and Cardiff?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
I certainly do. I do not want to damage his future political career at this very sensitive juncture in Wales, but that would certainly be my reflection on things. My apologies to Ken if that does not help.
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, for what she expressed as her fundamental support for what we are doing here. I accentuate that the borrowing caps have been agreed with the constituent authorities, as well as the combined authorities. I note that she raised some issues, quite rightly, about the additional borrowing and asked for reassurance about the checks that exist. First, the cap has been agreed; as she will know, the Treasury is not generally profligate in these matters. Additionally, local authorities are already subject to a prudential borrowing code and regime, which will remain the case. The monitoring officer will be watching that like a hawk to make sure that it complies with the overriding requirement that the authority is able to pay back the debt that is concluded.
The noble Baroness is right that this varies from area to area; indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, also made that point. These are bespoke deals. For example, there is a world of difference between Cambridgeshire, Peterborough and Liverpool City Region, so it is not surprising that there are differences between the areas in what is being devolved. The nature of devolution includes these electoral checks, done locally, and one has to trust that people will look after their area. It is the Government’s belief—widely shared in the House, I think—that these things should be dealt with at a level close to people’s jobs, homes and experience. That is precisely what is happening here. I note that the noble Baroness went on to talk about her positive welcome; I very much thank her for that.
The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, also generally welcomed the borrowing powers. He noted, and I agree, that sometimes these consultations result in very few people responding. The same is true, sadly, of the number of people voting in local elections, which the noble Lord and I have discussed in other environments. I know that the average turnout is always higher in the noble Lord’s elections in Lewisham, for reasons we can only speculate on, but his point was fair. We often include a health warning and say that we are disappointed by the number of people who responded. Nevertheless, it is important that we go through that consultation exercise. I suggest that if we were doing something that was entirely off beam, the number of people responding would be greater. That is the experience. Nevertheless, it is a point well made.
I thank noble Lords for their general welcome for what are important powers for these combined authorities. I am not making a party-political point here, but I note the combined authorities’ success across the board. They are working well and are generally welcomed by the people in their areas.
The noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, asked me to address future developments. We will be watching Sheffield. She is right that there are challenges there and, as noble Lords have seen, there is a challenge about the position of Yorkshire generally. We are looking at proposals that have been made relating to that. They have landed with us and we are looking at them. Obviously that is something we would want to discuss with the incoming mayor of the Sheffield City Region. It is not quite universal in Yorkshire. As the noble Baroness will know, Sheffield and Rotherham are not as warm about this as other authorities, let us say. That is what is happening there. We are aware that Leeds, for example, is the largest city without a mayoralty combined authority badge. It is important that that is put right.
We are looking more broadly at devolution now that we have, or will have shortly, eight combined authorities with the biggest cities, although not exclusively large cities, because Cambridge and Peterborough are somewhat different and we have a particular arrangement with Cornwall, where there is no mayoralty but there is a devolution deal. We are looking at that. In the fullness of time I expect to bring that back to the House for discussion. With that, I beg to move.
Housing and Planning Act 2016 (Banning Order Offences) Regulations 2017
Lord Jones Excerpts(6 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Jones (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his exposition and I support the draft regulations, which are surely an improvement. He had a distinguished tenure in the Welsh Assembly—indeed, he had a leader’s role. He clearly stated that the regulations relate entirely to England but, given his considerable Welsh insights, can he in passing indicate whether there are similar and effective arrangements in Wales or, at least, arrangements that are the equal of those in England?
Baroness Grender (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation of the banning orders. This is one part of the Housing and Planning Act 2016 where we agreed with the Benches opposite, regarding the need to introduce measures to address rogue landlords. Where we parted company—although we would still like to pursue the argument—was about the need to ensure that if there were a register or database of rogue landlords, it should be transparent and made available to prospective tenants. There is still a danger of the attitude that tenants in the UK are second-class citizens. The Government are introducing lots of measures on this issue and we on these Benches are delighted with them. I am personally delighted—following my Private Member’s Bill—that the banning of letting fees is now in a draft government Bill. Nevertheless, a growing number of people are tenants. Some should not be in the private rented sector at all but on a social rent, while others need to be advocates for themselves and strong consumers. The best way for them to do that is to have as much information as possible. If the register of rogue landlords is simply held as a DCLG database and not made available to tenants, we think that that would be a missed opportunity.
By 2021, nearly one in four people will be renting, and a quarter of those will be families with children. The Minister rightly talked about how many responsible landlords there are. Indeed, there are many responsible tenants. Just under 80% of tenants pay their rent on time and in full. That is why I am delighted to support the Creditworthiness Assessment Bill proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Bird, which is about trying to even up attitudes about private lending to tenants. These tenants are having real difficulty, and there is a significant gap in the way they are treated by the private sector.
In both the consultation and the Government’s response some opposition was expressed about immigration issues in terms of the banning orders. I ask the Minister to look at that again. As there is a danger that the attitude of landlords will be that non-UK nationals are a risk, non-UK nationals could be pushed into the properties of more unscrupulous landlords. One of the case studies in the consultation presented a terrible scenario where there were 40 beds in a set of properties. Quite rightly, the Government described that as an unacceptable form of accommodation. With immigration banning orders, there is a danger that people will be pushed into even worse accommodation. We all know some of the stories. We have heard about people renting sheds in back gardens and that sort of thing. Although we support the principle, is there something else that can be done so that they are not driven into a kind of underworld?
In the consultation case studies I was also struck by the issue of electrical safety. Will the Minister update us on that? There is a reference to gas safety, but we are still waiting for the mandatory electrical safety checks that we discussed. The working group on electrical safety checks concluded in 2016 that such checks should be mandatory, but we are still waiting for them to be introduced. I would have thought that this moment and these regulations would be a perfect moment to include them. As the Minister will be well aware, 70 people are killed in the UK through contact with electricity every year, while carbon monoxide poisoning, gas leaks, fires and explosions are responsible for 18 deaths. We believe that mandatory electrical checks are extremely urgent, and I am sure the Minister will agree.
I conclude with enforcement. We often debate on these Benches how local authorities can enforce the rules given their reduced resources—we all agree, across the House, that local authorities have had their resources reduced. As banning orders such as these come in, there is other legislation already in place that is not being fulfilled. Why not? Because the resources to enforce it at local authority level are so reduced. That brings me back, again, to this issue about the transparency of the register. If local authorities are so underresourced that they cannot enforce this, surely the Government need to change their mind and allow tenants to have access to the information about who the rogue landlords are in their area, so they do not have to rely on the local authority for enforcement every step of the way. The Government changed their mind on letting fees, which was the right thing to do for the growing number of people who are renting. It would be great if the Government could also change their mind on this issue.
Homelessness
Lord Jones Excerpts(6 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, first, this is not a problem unique to the United Kingdom.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
Secondly, there is only one country in the EU that does not face mounting numbers of rough sleepers and homelessness, and that is Finland. We have been careful to ensure that we have Finnish assistance on the advisory committee we are using. We are looking at this issue in a broad sense. It has not suddenly happened but it has increased over a period of time. Yes, it is a serious problem, as I have said on many occasions. We are committing resources to it and the noble Lord will be aware of our target of halving rough sleeping by 2022 and eliminating it by 2027.
Housing and Planning Act 2016 (Permission in Principle etc) (Miscellaneous Amendments) (England) Regulations 2017
Lord Jones Excerpts(7 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Shipley (LD)
My Lords, I have two brief questions for the Minister. The first relates to the definition of housing-led development that the Government are currently using. We debated this during the passing of the Bill and, as I understand it, permission in principle can be obtained only in relation to housing-led development. However, questions were posed at the time regarding what happens when the housing element of a development is much smaller than the development as a whole, which may have commercial development at its heart and the housing element is consequential. In other words, can permission in principle be granted for housing on a site where less than half of the total development planned is for housing? A clear definition would be helpful.
The second matter is not so much a question as a request for the Minister to consider producing for the general public a plain-English guide to planning law. There are complexities around the Neighbourhood Planning Bill, which goes to Report on Thursday, and the changes it makes to the Housing and Planning Act, under which these regulations are being made. If one looks at, for example, permitted development regulations, permission in principle regulations and, probably in future, pre-commencement conditions, the question arises of whether there are any plans to consolidate all of them. Perhaps more importantly, it should be made easy for the general public, particularly those who are producing neighbourhood plans, to understand the statutory position of many of these policies in relation to themselves. In other words, it should be written in language that people can understand.
Lord Jones (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his helpful, clear and brief exposition. I note that he is a compatriot with a truly Welsh title. I have a brief question on Regulation 4—“Consequential amendment to the Planning (Hazardous Substances) Act 1990”—in the knowledge that successive Governments have been encouraging the use of brownfield sites. There must be a relevance to that aspect of policy and this item. What is the consequence of this regulation for builders, local authority housing committees and housing associations? How have the Government reached conclusions affecting the use of brownfield sites? I note the helpful reference to Regulation 4 in the Explanatory Note and the mention of a “hazardous substances authority”. Can the Minister—during the debate, by letter or with help from officials—say what this authority is, who is chairing it and what sort of people sit on it? It is relevant in terms of a genuine debate.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)
My Lords, I start my remarks with my usual declarations and refer Members to my entry in the register of interests. I should specifically mention that I am a local councillor in the London Borough of Lewisham and a vice-president of the Local Government Association.
The Government are slowly—actually, very slowly—bringing forward regulations under the Housing and Planning Act. We are now coming up to the first anniversary of Royal Assent, and I recall all the fuss, hoo-hah and pressure we had to get the Bill on to the statute book. When Members argued that we should spend a bit more time getting the regulations sorted out, we were told, “No, no, we have to get this on the statute book now. It must happen”. Here we are, nearly a year later, and one or two regulations are coming forward. That is no way to legislate. It has caused worry and confusion and is not the way to do things. Having said that, I am very pleased that the Government have dropped some parts of the Act. That is good, and long may it continue—there are one or two things we want to see the end of fairly shortly and all power to the noble Lord’s elbow on that—but it is not a great way to make legislation.
The SI deals with permission in principle. It is designed to separate planning decision-making on “in principle” issues—for example, locations—from the more technical detail, to give up-front certainty to developers before they get into the more technical and, some might say, costly matters. Equally, one could suggest that residents are concerned that this is just a way to bypass local people in the planning process so they have less influence. Of course, that is not very localist.
Turning to the specifics of the statutory instrument, I have one or two questions for the Minister, but I shall not be detaining the Grand Committee for very long. Regulation 2 provides that a local authority application for permission in principle should not be exempt information. Perhaps the Minister can say a little more about that, and whether the Government have any plans to increase transparency there. That would be useful. Regulation 3 concerns non-material amendments; perhaps he can say a little more about that. Regulation 4, to which my noble friend Lord Jones referred, talks about hazardous substances with regard to any permission in principle granted to land in the vicinity. Can we have more information about what that means in practice? How will the Government decide what is in the vicinity? What does that mean? It is a bit like asking how long is a piece of string. What sort of testing regime will there be of harmful impacts of hazardous substances on land, water supply or animal life? We need to know a bit more about what will be carried out.
Finally, Regulation 5 is about triggering and terminating events of an application for registration of a village green. As the Minister will know, Section 87 of the Localism Act 2011 is still a very new piece of legislation which was put on the statute book by the coalition Government and deals with assets of community value. It allows village greens to be designated and therefore prevents them being sold off for development. Effectively, the regulation could put a stop to all that. What is the point of putting something on the statute book in 2011 to give communities this right and then, six years later, creating a mechanism whereby that right can be lost? That does not seem very localist either. I should like to hear more from the Minister about that. What was the point of putting it on the statute book in the first place if we are now to take that right away with no warning to local people?
Those are my questions. I have no further points to make on the effect of the regulations. I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Self-build and Custom Housebuilding (Time for Compliance and Fees) Regulations 2016
Lord Jones Excerpts(7 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)
My Lords, I will start my brief remarks by making my usual declarations that I am an elected councillor in the London Borough of Lewisham and a vice-president of the Local Government Association. I fully support the regulations before us today. They are a welcome boost to increasing the amount of self-build and custom-built homes in the UK. We have a number of self-build plots in Lewisham and I support them. I like the idea of new homes and innovation and it is very good if people are able to build properties themselves if they want to. Being able to double the number of plots and houses available would be very positive.
A week or two ago, we had a very interesting debate on housing. More generally, I hope we now all accept the need to increase the number of houses built for various tenures. It irritates me when people sometimes suggest that it is councils that hold back planning permission for property generally. In fact, we often agree permission for housing and then nothing happens. I hope that, in agreeing these regulations today, and looking for more plots, the Minister will also take a wider look at the whole question of planning and what we can do about plots of land with multiple permissions but on which nothing ever happens. Perhaps we can make some of those plots available for someone else to build more self-build houses. The real problem we need to look at is building more houses of different types. However, these regulations are very good and I am happy to support them.
Lord Jones (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, for the clear and resonant tones in which he spoke to the instrument. These were, no doubt, honed in the Wales Assembly—where he had a distinguished role and no little success—and a Welsh university.
My first brief question, with which, perhaps, his officials can help, is: how much self-building has occurred in previous years in England? Is there a record of self-builds for England in a recent year? Secondly, what sort of fees are paid individually on a self-build in England in a reasonably modest location? Is it possible for him to respond to those two questions? My third question, which I suspect he will not be able to advance on, is regarding any details concerning Wales.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for participating in this debate and for the support that they have given to these regulations. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for his support and that of the Official Opposition in the House of Lords. I recognise that his borough of Lewisham is doing some innovative work in this area, as are other London boroughs and other areas in England. I will respond to the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and the noble Lord, Lord Jones. I thank the latter very much for his kind remarks about my honing of skills in the National Assembly for Wales, of which I have very fond memories. I met with the First Minister in the House of Lords yesterday. We were in danger of being in our anecdotage discussing the National Assembly last night, but that is another issue.
Self-builds in England are currently running at about 10,000 a year. They have been somewhat higher than that—it varies from year to year. As I have indicated, our aim is to double that figure by 2020. In the whole of the United Kingdom, they are running at about 12,000 a year. On continental Europe, the figures are much higher. About 7% to 10% of our housing completions are self-build. At the other end of the scale, about 80% of housing completions in Austria are self-build. In Sweden, it is around 63%; in Germany and France, about 60%; in the Netherlands it is also high. We are very different from continental Europe. There is a desire on the part of people in this country to design and build their own home, partly no doubt engendered by television programmes such as “Grand Designs” with Kevin McCloud. One of the side effects of this is it will improve the design of the houses that we have. If people are designing their own homes, they will be keen for that design to contribute to the general ambience and be of a high standard. I do not have an average cost for self-build—that will vary enormously from area to area and from house to house—but it is competitive with normal build, which is obviously in response to the desire people have to build their own home.
On a more general point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, he will know that we are bringing forward a housing White Paper this autumn that will address some of the issues we need to address to build more houses in this country. He will know that the Prime Minister is making this a high priority for the Government, which has already been indicated by the commitment of resources and the recent announcement by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, Sajid Javid, of £3 billion for housebuilding, £1 billion of which could be directed in this area. Therefore we have committed resources to this and we regard it as important.
Once again, I thank noble Lords for their support and I commend these draft regulations to the Committee.
Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (Wales) Regulations 2013
Lord Jones Excerpts(11 years, 2 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)
My Lords, these regulations were laid before the House on 19 December 2012. They form part of a package of statutory instruments that will enable local authorities in Wales to enforce bus lane and some moving traffic offences. Similar civil enforcement provisions under the Traffic Management Act are already in force in Wales in respect of parking contraventions. The package of legislation will enable enforcement in Wales to be carried out by civil enforcement officers acting on behalf of local authorities, in addition to police officers and traffic wardens.
By way of some background, Part 6 of the Traffic Management Act 2004 provides power to the “appropriate national authority” to make regulations for the civil enforcement by local authorities of parking and waiting restrictions, bus lanes and some moving traffic offences. In Wales the appropriate national authority is Welsh Ministers. The Act also confers powers on the Lord Chancellor to make regulations dealing with the notification and enforcement of penalty charges, representations to the enforcement authority, appeals to an independent adjudicator by those on whom penalties are imposed, and the appointment of adjudicators. Section 89 of the 2004 Act provides the Lord Chancellor with express powers to make different provisions for Wales.
The regulations before the Committee set out procedures whereby persons upon whom civil penalties have been imposed for parking, bus lane or certain moving traffic contraventions in areas where civil enforcement applies, or persons whose vehicles have been immobilised on account of such contraventions, can make representations to the relevant enforcement authority against the imposition of the penalties in particular cases and can appeal to an independent adjudicator if their representations are rejected by the local authority in Wales.
Lord Jones
I will be brief. Does the noble Baroness have any intention, in the course of these proceedings, to give the Committee any statistics on the number of appeals and representations under the regime that is to be replaced by new legislation?
Baroness Randerson
It is not my intention to do so. As I will make clear later when responding to the questions and comments of noble Lords, it is very difficult to know the extent to which this will spread throughout Wales, because it will be a devolved issue and not one for your Lordships’ House.
I will return to what I was saying in introducing the regulations. Persons who have received penalties can make representations to the relevant enforcement authority against the imposition of the penalties in particular cases and can appeal to an independent adjudicator if their representations are rejected by the local authority in Wales. The regulations set out the grounds for making representations and for appealing, and the schedule contains rules for the conduct of proceedings before adjudicators.
Using their executive powers in the Traffic Management Act 2004, Welsh Ministers propose to expand the range of offences for which civil enforcement may be used by local authorities in Wales to include bus lane contraventions and some moving traffic offences; for example, restrictions applying to cycle lanes, left or right turns and box junctions. These specific regulations are necessary to ensure that persons on whom civil penalties have been imposed in Wales can make representations against the imposition of the penalties and can appeal to an independent adjudicator if their representations are rejected by the local authority in Wales.
The regulations should be read in conjunction with a further set of regulations, the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (General Provisions) (Wales) Regulations 2013. Assuming that the regulations before the Committee today are approved, these regulations will be made by both the Lord Chancellor and Welsh Ministers and laid before both Parliament and the Assembly, subject to annulment. A copy of the proposed regulations is attached as an annexe to the Explanatory Memorandum.
The general provisions regulations must be signed by both the Lord Chancellor and Welsh Ministers. They provide detail in relation to the service of penalty charge notices and the immobilisation of vehicles. They also prescribe requirements in relation to the use of income generated from penalty charge notices and deal with the appointment of adjudicators by enforcement authorities.
Welsh Ministers will need to make several sets of regulations in addition to both these sets of regulations, subject only to Assembly procedure, to complete the package of legislation. The first of these, the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) Removed Vehicles (Wales) Regulations 2013, deals with the appeal process where a vehicle owner does not agree that a vehicle should have been removed and/or disposed of by the local authority in Wales.
The regulations dealing with appeals against removed vehicles were laid in draft before the Assembly on 19 December and are subject to a resolution of the Assembly before being made. A further set of regulations subject to annulment in the Assembly is expected to be laid in due course. The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Approved Devices) (Wales) Order 2013 will deal with technical specifications for devices used by local authorities in Wales to capture road traffic contraventions; for example, camera enforcement. My department continues to work closely with the Welsh Government on the delivery of the overall package.
In the interests of simplifying this area, the opportunity is being taken to consolidate the law. Provisions relating to civil enforcement of parking, bus lanes and moving traffic offences are being consolidated throughout the package of statutory instruments.
Under the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007, parking adjudicators are a “listed tribunal” which is required to be consulted on these regulations. We have therefore consulted the Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council on the draft regulations and the council has confirmed that it is content.
The regulations before your Lordships today are entirely in line with the division of responsibilities between the Lord Chancellor and Welsh Ministers for civil enforcement provided for in the Traffic Management Act 2004. The regulations have been considered by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which has determined that the special attention of the House need not be drawn to them. They have been considered also by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, which has approved them without comment.
The Government’s role in bringing the regulations forward demonstrates our commitment to observing devolution arrangements and, where appropriate, to collaborating with the Welsh Government to enable them to deliver their commitments in Wales. I beg to move.
Lord Wigley
I understand fully that it took about four months to receive comments from the consultees and then three years to digest what came back. If it is taking that long, surely interests such as those of shopkeepers should be taken on board. If bus lanes have an impact on anyone, it is on shopkeepers. There can be serious problems for people who need to stop and pick up their purchases.
Let me pick up the point about finance. We are told that this is self-financing. Do we therefore assume that those involved are keeping some of the money arising from the fines that are imposed? If so, who gets the money? Is it the local authority or the National Assembly? If the money is not adequate for the costs of running the new system, who pays the difference? Is it the local authority? Who pays for the appeals, for which no doubt there will be a cost? At a time when there is a tremendous squeeze on local authorities, I would have thought that the last thing they want is additional costs.
We are told that Welsh Ministers can extend the range of contraventions and are involved in the mechanics in a pretty fundamental way. Therefore, at an appropriate time—I realise that this goes beyond the scope of what we are debating today—should we not consider transferring this matter lock, stock and barrel, so that it can be handled in Cardiff without taking up our time in this Chamber?
Lord Jones
My Lords, I will be brief. I am grateful to the Minister for her considerate introduction to the regulations. However, do we have no statistics whatever from 2010 or 2011 on the number of immobilisations or appeals? Has the Welsh Local Government Association made no representations to the Government or to the Welsh Assembly Government? Is there an estimate of the amount of work that we are passing to local government in Wales? Do we have any insight into what the four constabularies have put on record about this change? It would be helpful for the Committee to know the scale of the work that we are passing on. That seems to be a foundation question.
Baroness Gale
My Lords, I thank the Minister for bringing these important regulations before us today. We welcome them, as they are what the Welsh Government have requested and have been working on for some time. The package gives powers to local authorities effectively to manage traffic, which will help to reduce delays and tackle congestion. I am aware that the Welsh Government have worked closely with local authorities, the British Parking Association, the police, the UK Government and their legal services in preparing the regulations, which will complement and consolidate the powers that local authorities were given on 31 March 2008 to take civil enforcement action against parking contraventions.
It is important to note that these powers will not stop the police from taking action where necessary, although the main rationale for the changes is that the police are not able to make the enforcement of bus lanes and road traffic contraventions priorities for action. I can give the example of Cardiff where there are bus lanes which, of course, only buses should be using. However, Cardiff Council is unable to take action against other vehicles using those lanes because they do not have the enforcement powers to do so. The Welsh Government believe that these regulations will help improve the punctuality and appeal of local bus services because if the bus lanes are clear, the buses can get to their destinations a lot more quickly. The Welsh Government think that this will help to further the sustainability of bus services, which we know are so important to many of our communities in Wales.
This is a key part of the Welsh Government’s economic and social objectives and is consistent with their national transport plan which was published in December 2011. However, it is important that these powers are used appropriately and that the public can trust the decisions made by enforcement officers. The enforcement of the bus lane and road traffic contraventions will be based on evidence captured on camera and other approved recording equipment and devices. Another set of regulations will be brought forward to deal with those, as the Minister has explained.
The Welsh Government are in discussions with the Vehicle Certification Agency on the terms of the technical service agreement to certify on behalf of Welsh Ministers that the cameras and associated equipment used to enforce parking restrictions in bus lanes and certain road traffic contraventions are fit for purpose. It is important that local authorities are accountable for their decisions and that residents know how the money raised from fines is used, a point made earlier by other noble Lords.
In terms of accountability, the local authorities using these powers will be required to send copies of their income and expenditure accounts to Welsh Ministers as part of an annual report about their enforcement activities. This will highlight the impact on journey times along key routes. It is also important that the appeal system and the independent adjudicator are set up, which is what we are dealing with today. The regulations specify the procedure for making representations and ensure that people given a penalty charge will be able to see the evidence against them and are given the opportunity to challenge it. For example, they may not have owned the vehicle at the time the penalty was incurred.
Following the results of the consultation, the regulations stipulate that local authorities must be responsible for handling representations themselves rather than the responsibility being contracted out. That is to be welcomed as it ensures that people will know that they can go directly to their council, thus maintaining a direct and transparent link. It is planned that the regulations will be backed up by statutory operational guidance that will provide more detailed advice on the use of the new powers. It is important that that guidance is well publicised. The Welsh Government are planning to work closely with local authorities, the British Parking Association and others to prepare the guidance, which they plan to publish this year.
These are sensible regulations that should make a difference to road travel in Wales, especially in town centres and other busy areas. In supporting these plans, I understand that the Welsh Government are anxious to go ahead with implementation at the earliest opportunity. Can the Minister tell us when the regulations will be put before the House of Commons, as I understand that no date has as yet been fixed? Will she also agree to use her influence to ensure that there are no further delays in order to enable the Welsh Government and local authorities to move forward quickly on the implementation of these regulations? In the mean time, I thank the Minister for placing these regulations before us, and of course we fully support them.
Baroness Randerson
I assure the noble Lord that I will deal with that as a matter of urgency after this debate finishes.
Lord Jones
When the noble Baroness looks at that, will she see if there are any statistics?
Baroness Randerson
I will respond to noble Lords in general afterwards on any issues that arise from this debate.
Finally, when I write about the statistics, noble Lords should bear in mind that we do not know how many local authorities are going to opt in to this scheme, so it is difficult to talk about the statistics.
The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, asked when the debate in the House of Commons would be. It will be on 12 February. As the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, said, it may not be a cause for great excitement. I am a citizen of Cardiff. The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, gave a very good example of Cardiff lacking the power to take action on bus lanes. I remember the South Wales Echo featuring a heated debate as to whether Cardiff Council should have the power to enforce parking restrictions. It was probably one of the most heated local debates within the Welsh capital city in many years. It is important to remember that these issues may seem to us relatively minor, but they are of considerable importance not only to local residents but to bus companies, commuters and, of course, the democratically elected councils that run our cities and towns and try to make sure that we have an effective and efficient transport system. I commend the regulations to noble Lords.
Parliamentary Constituencies and Assembly Electoral Regions (Wales) (Amendment) Order 2011
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Lord Wigley
As I was saying before we were interrupted, a question remains about the mechanics for sorting out any changes in Wales and whether the Boundary Commission is going to do this itself. Will decisions about National Assembly constituencies be taken solely in Wales or debated in a forum at Westminster? What will the timescale be for this? There needs to be some clarification, because from the media reports in Wales it is clear that there is considerable uncertainty about this. I personally regard 30 Westminster seats for Wales as ridiculous, particularly if they have to be the same size, but that is an issue for another piece of legislation. None the less, that impinges on what we are debating today, as other noble Lords have mentioned, and I hope that the Minister might be in a position to give some clarification. If he is not, perhaps he could find a vehicle by which we could be informed of the Government’s thinking on this matter.
Lord Jones
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his exposition and the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, for hers and for the information that she gave to your Lordships. I heard the Minister’s stentorian Scottish brogue as he outlined his Welsh intentions, so I drew the appropriate conclusions.
As the draft SI says, the Boundary Commission for Wales has submitted to the Lord President of the Council, Mr Clegg, reports recommending alterations to the boundaries of the parliamentary constituencies into which Wales is divided and of the constituencies of the National Assembly for Wales. Paragraph 4.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum to the order states baldly that,
“the Assembly constituencies will no longer be the same as the parliamentary constituencies”.
In some respects, it is not an exaggeration to say that in stating that fact in these papers, some history is being made. There is to be a disjoint between the boundaries of the Assembly and of the mother of Parliaments where Wales is concerned. I do not see in the Explanatory Memorandum or in the draft order any explanation as to the intent of the Government with regard to the parliamentary boundaries.
I am not qualified to pronounce upon details concerning Brecon and Radnor, Rhymney, Ogmore, Cardiff, Merthyr Tydfil, the vale and Penarth, but I presume that the consultations were scrupulous and that, in terms of these being ward boundaries for the Assembly, things went reasonably well. The order mentions parliamentary boundaries, and although the Minister mentioned them he does not appear to know about the extreme disquiet about the details of the proposed boundaries, which mean that there will be 10 fewer Members of Parliament in Wales. To cut away 10 parliamentary seats from Wales is unjust; Wales’s MPs now are serving their constituents extremely well, and MPs of all parties have never worked so hard, so effectively and so visibly. Their constituents get a fine service, and MPs make their offices and staff readily available throughout Wales to give that excellent service. That service is of more than high quality, and I regret the coalition’s decision to expunge 10 seats. The reasons for this are not given in the draft or the Explanatory Memorandum.
This is a historic blunder, against the grain of public opinion. Are Westminster MPs expected to wither on the vine in the years ahead? Why does the coalition hugely increase, by over 100, the membership of an overcrowded House of Lords when it proposes to cut severely the number of MPs? Ten parliamentary seats are to go in Wales in the coalition’s approach. Even at this late stage, I would hope that Downing Street will decide that it is going too far and will dump such a measure. It seems that we will have more and more Barons and Baronesses and fewer MPs in Wales, but we are not told in the papers before this Committee the reasons why. I do not think that this is the time to denude Wales of its Westminster champions—champions of reform, of the underprivileged and, increasingly, of the unemployed.
There is a birthright here, a parliamentary birthright, and the Government of the day are taking much of it away from the people of Wales. The Government promulgate the merits of what you may call community and yet are hacking away at an established value and historic provision in Wales. So far we have not heard why the Government intend this.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, first, I thank all noble Lords who took part in this debate. I think it is fair to say that there is very little contention over the detail of the order, and indeed I think that was the response to the recommendations of the Boundary Commission for Wales when it produced its preliminary findings. As I indicated in my opening remarks, we are not aware of anyone objecting to these provisions.
Perhaps I may start with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Jones. The reason why there is nothing about the reduction in the number of Members of Parliament in Wales in either the order or the Explanatory Memorandum is that that is not what the order is about. It is about boundaries which will be relevant to the Welsh Assembly. I say to the noble Lord that I certainly am aware of the furore that this has caused. It was not for nothing that I dealt with the relevant parts in the amendments both in Committee and on Report when the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill went through your Lordships’ House.
Lord Jones
The Minister is helpful and kindly, notwithstanding his brief, but the draft order contains the words “Representation of the People, Wales” and “Parliamentary Constituencies”. There it is. There is no answer from the Government as to why Wales must suffer this huge penalty. One hopes that one day a Minister who represents the coalition will tell us why.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, as I explained to the noble Lord’s noble friend Lord Rowlands, the words “Parliamentary Constituencies” appear in the order because they are in the name of the order being amended by this order. However, the detail of the order affects only boundaries for constituencies for the Welsh Assembly and the regions for which additional Members are elected.
I absolutely share the noble Lord’s view; I would hate to see Welsh MPs wither on the vine. As someone who believes in the integrity of our United Kingdom, I hope that for generations to come there will be Members of Parliament from Wales, Scotland, England and Northern Ireland. If the noble Lord is looking for an explanation, the reason why I am not going to rehearse all the arguments that we had in the Chamber during the Committee and Report stages of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill is that in these elections Members will be elected by equal numbers in Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland. That was the goal of the provisions in the 2011 legislation.
Lord Jones
The noble and learned Lord knows that Scotland has taken a hit but he has not given the reason why Wales should take a hit.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
The reason is that, following the proposals by the Boundary Commission for Scotland, the Boundary Commission for Wales, the Boundary Commission for Northern Ireland and the Boundary Commission for England, there will roughly be equality, within 5 per cent, in the number of electors per constituency. That does not exist at the moment, and the intention is to achieve that equality so that a vote in Cardiff has the same value as a vote in Coleraine, Edinburgh and Manchester. The intention is to ensure that throughout our United Kingdom votes are of equal value, and nothing in that minimises or detracts from the value of a vote in Wales.
We have been through the arguments and I do not think that we are going to advance much further. I suspect that this argument is going to come around again when the Boundary Commission for Wales publishes its provisional proposals for the Westminster seats. As I indicated to the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, I was aware of the interview with the First Minister in today’s Western Mail. I think that it was also on WalesOnline. Very early in my remarks in moving the order, I said that the Explanatory Memorandum says, as a matter of legal explanation of what the order is about, that these changes will come into effect for the election to the Assembly in 2016. However, I did say that that was subject to the commitment given by the Secretary of State for Wales to look carefully at the implications of having different boundaries for Assembly constituencies and parliamentary constituencies in Wales.
If the noble Baroness had not done so, I would have quoted the reply that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales gave in the House of Commons back in May, when she gave that commitment seriously to consider the implications. However, I assure noble Lords here today that nothing will be done without full and proper consultation. It would have been improper if, having brought forward the recommendations on these interim changes, we had not moved to implement them. I think that it would have been very presumptuous on our part not to have done so, given that we knew that the Boundary Commission for Wales had the proposals under consideration when we passed the 2011 legislation.
Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill
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Lord Jones
I am glad to follow my noble friend Lady Gale because she has huge insight into Wales and its workings. My noble friend Lord Howarth of Newport quoted the poet RS Thomas. I wondered then how he would have responded had this Bill come before him. I think that the Nobel-nominated genius would have responded with a grimace and a frown and with sharp, thunderous, angry denunciations. That leads to what the genius of the south, RS Thomas’s cousin Dylan, might have done. Had he encountered this measure, he would, after a glass or two, have presented a laughter-filled satire of English arrogance.
The noble Lords, Lord Crickhowell and Lord Roberts, both shrewdly emphasised the qualities of shrewdness in terms of representation here in Westminster as opposed to numbers. I heard the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, instance his argument by reference to James Callaghan, a man of great quality. I studied Leonard James Callaghan in his use of power for many years, and I thought that it was seated not simply in his great quality but in his absolute certainty that he would always be followed by many Welsh Members of Parliament. That was part of his capacity. I have studied these debates for, perhaps, over two weeks and I have noticed the numbers and the power of Scottish Peers. I concluded—shrewdly, I think—that the Scots people, that great nation, negotiated themselves into our union and that that great brute, Henry VIII, the founder of the English state, annexed Wales without any public consultation whatsoever.
The coalition is off course. It puts more and more Peers into your Lordships’ House yet it legislates to take many Members of Parliament out of the Commons, which does not seem logical. Instead of two Bills, we have one which is disparate and disjointed. It is not good enough. I believe that it is wrong for the coalition to debit 25 per cent of MPs in Wales. That cannot be right; it is unjust. We are talking of something approaching a parliamentary birthright. That is how the Welsh people see their representation here in Westminster. They always have and they would not be pleased if this Bill progresses. I believe Wales to be a very mature democracy. Wales likes its parliamentary politics. It is proud of its political heritage and it gives so much to the body politic here in Britain.
I am not the only noble Lord to say that Britain has gained so much from the Welsh constituencies; our great Mr David Lloyd George, who founded our welfare state; the mighty Mr Bevan—we all know what he contributed to Britain and to Wales; Mr Ness Edwards, who was very much a representative of the Welsh mining constituencies; Mr James Griffiths, a passionate man from the west who gave us national insurance Acts. Here are risks for the future, yet the coalition seems blind to them. Wales deserves better than this. It is a careless measure with more than a hint of a Heath Robinson disjoint.
Welsh people rate their Members of Parliament. They use them and their services with gusto. Now is not the time to denude the Principality of its favoured defenders. The MPs in Wales do a magnificent job of responding to their constituents’ concerns. They deploy their staff most effectively. I would say that is the case with all Members of Parliament, whatever their party, in Wales. The service that they give now is instant, devoted and very effective. The measures in the Bill are not a reform; a reform is an advance. These measures are a negative, not a positive—deleterious, in effect. I am not the first to pose the questions, but where was the pre-legislative scrutiny? Where is public consultation? Where is the consideration of our geography and its peculiarities or of our economic and social history?
What is proposed is unjust and we now know that, in the immediate years ahead, there will be economic and social changes of the greatest seriousness. There is the imminent impact of major cuts in local government services. There has been too much legislation, by all Governments—ill considered and careless legislation. The history of our modern Parliaments is littered with examples of hurried, ill judged legislation and for these reasons, I support the amendment.
National Assembly for Wales (Representation of the People) (Amendment) Order 2010
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Lord Jones
The National Assembly for Wales is a real success. It is striking out on its own trajectory. It is barely 10 years old, but it has done so much and has grown in stature. To cut the number of parliamentary constituencies in Wales by 25 per cent is something of a folly. No doubt we can return to this matter another time, but it cannot be right.
I acknowledge the erudite introduction by the Minister, and I also thank my noble friend Lady Gale for her observations from the Dispatch Box. If anybody knows about elections in Wales, it is my noble friend, for she has a magnificent record of general election campaigning in Wales. The statistics indicate that hers were always the best results for the Labour Party throughout Britain. My noble friend is very surefooted in the matters delineated in the order. Yes, it is a tidying-up measure and not controversial. I support it. Surely it will be passed.
It is good to see the parity given to both languages in this order. The Government cannot be too careful on matters concerning language in Wales. Language is now at the forefront of consideration in public life in Wales, and I think that it will remain so. I am glad that the order has comprehended that.
The schedule helpfully presents Form CK, Form CK1 and Form CL. In the Explanatory Memorandum is a splendidly deadpan sentence under the heading, “Territorial Extent and Application”. It states:
“The Order extends to the whole of the United Kingdom but applies only in relation to the election to the National Assembly for Wales”.
I think Sir Humphrey lives; it is a delicious catch-all. Constitutional change always fetches up example after example of such glorious lines as that. What fun the civil servants must have had; how enjoyable the draftsmen must have found it. Sir Humphrey lives and, without a doubt, devolved government presents for all of us here in your Lordships' House a perpetual learning curve.
In the schedule, the mock constituency ballot paper and the mock regional ballot paper are very helpful. There is an interesting coincidence where Sarah Gale is concerned. I am looking again at surnames—there is no relation of course. I very much agree with my noble friend that there are no genuine Welsh names, and I would not be the first in this debate to point that out. It cannot be right. My noble friend was right in his mischievous and humorous way to tell us of that fact.
In the 1997 Parliament in another place, the then Madam Speaker appointed me as the chairman of a new committee, the Political Parties Committee. The committee was to settle upon the description of a political party’s name—the words describing the party. It was also to settle upon the logo that that party could adopt. It is interesting now to see the ballot papers proposed. All the political parties in Great Britain, and some that one never knew existed, came forward with their logo and their self-descriptions. I had been on the Intelligence and Security Committee, appointed by the Prime Minister, for some 11 years, but I learnt more about the Communist Party of Great Britain from its description of itself than I ever did from being a member of that committee.
Lord German
My Lords, perhaps I may make a short intervention in support of my noble friend Lord Roberts of Llandudno on the issue of the regional ballot paper. It will give me the opportunity also to answer one of the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, about the coincidence of elections. It is incidental to the order, but I cannot resist the opportunity of answering that point.
There is a long and noble tradition in our electoral system of people being able to vote for people. If I have to look at the wall of a polling station to find out who will be elected if I put my vote against a party’s name, it is not quite the same as having the name there on the ballot paper. I understand the point about numbers, but only four people can be elected from the regional lists for any constituency in Wales. If the top four names for each of the parties are given, people will be able to say, “If I am voting for this party, I am voting for these four people in this order”. It will be quite clearly laid out on the ballot paper. I therefore ask my noble friend the Minister to consider this matter and see whether it chimes with political parties and the Electoral Commission for the elections next year.
On the coincidence of elections, we now have four elections in Wales: a European election, a National Assembly election, local council elections and elections for the other place. After the Bill passes, as we assume it will, there will be two five-year terms, for the European elections and the elections to the other place, and two four-year terms, for local authority and National Assembly elections. The National Assembly has previously moved elections for local government so that they do not coincide. The one, obvious way out of this difficulty whereby elections might clash on any number of occasions in the future—just as local elections and National Assembly elections would have clashed in the past—is to make all elections have five-year terms. We have two elections with fixed terms, European and Westminster; it seems that we should do the same for National Assembly and local elections.
These are personal views. I am testing them on this House so that people might consider them as a way out of the confusion created by having two sets of elections occurring at different intervals. Those of your Lordships who are good at mathematics will know that, if you have two fives and two fours, the fives and the fours will eventually clash. If it is logical to have fixed-term Parliaments for Europe and for the other place, it might be logical also for the National Assembly and local councils. If the logic is that fixed terms give you more time to make your programme of government work, that logic can be applied also to the National Assembly and local government.
National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Housing and Local Government) Order 2010
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Lord Elystan-Morgan
My Lords, I will detain the Grand Committee for only a very few moments. I, too, join everybody else in congratulating the Minister on his first foray into Welsh affairs in this Committee. I wish him every happiness and every success for the future. I agree very much with the precept that was articulated by the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands. We are not here to consider the basic merits of these devolved matters; we are here to say whether the procedures of devolution set out so clearly in Part 3 of the 2006 Act are properly adhered to. I say that because, like more than one Member of this Committee, I have heard it argued here over the past two or three years that there seems to be some onus of proof on whoever seeks to justify a measure of this nature to show that it has a fundamental benefit for the people of Wales. That is not what devolution is about. If we were to apply such a test, we would be going contrary to the principles set out in the 2006 Act in Parts 3 and 4.
I wholeheartedly support the measures. Indeed, having said that we should not consider them, I would say that they have every merit. In this respect, if ever there was a devolvable issue in relation to Welsh matters it must be in relation to housing or local government. We are dealing with a situation in which there are so many distinctive Welsh nuances that it cries out for devolution. The executive devolution took place a long time ago, soon after 1964, when the Welsh Office was set up. It is only right and proper that there should be primary legislative devolution to attach itself to that.
I take the point made by more than one Member of the Committee that nothing that we do here on these LCOs creates one word of legislation. All that we do is give a passport for legislation to take place in another place. We peg out an area and say to the Welsh Assembly that, now that it has asked for it, within that defined area it can build a legislative edifice. I am not sure how many Measures have come directly from LCOs; I suspect that it is about a dozen, with about half a dozen from other sources.
I have only one other thing to add. I thank whoever was responsible for the Explanatory Memorandum. It is one of the very best that I have read in relation to any legislation, but particularly in relation to these matters.
Lord Jones
My Lords, I support this order and wish the Wales Assembly well when it receives, operates and exploits it. Housing is the basic provision for any family life and I have no doubt that the Wales Assembly will always bear that in mind. The sum total of happiness will be advanced somewhat by the fact that these powers are coming nearer home for the people of Wales. The order will be operated by an Assembly that really believes in it.
I was glad to hear the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, make his speech. He will not mind my saying that it was a Methodist speech, perhaps in more than three parts just slightly so. I always listen with great interest to the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy. Nobody has served Wales longer than he has or with more dedication. He has great experience, which one hears in his observations on a matter such as this. I congratulate the noble and learned Lord the Minister on his appointment to his office. I saw his entry to the other place, I saw him leave it and I have seen him come back. He has made a strong beginning. I also offer most sincere congratulations to my noble friend on the Front Bench. Nobody knows Wales better than she. She knows Wales like the back of her hand and has served it with great compassion, conscientiousness and commitment. We will all wish her well on the Front Bench in her duties.
After the last general election in Wales, I took the trouble to go to the opening of the Wales Assembly by our sovereign Her Majesty the Queen. She was accompanied by the Consort, the Duke, and by the heir, the Prince of Wales—and he by the Duchess of Cornwall. Having been present in the Chamber looking down on the Royal Family, facing the Government of Wales and the Assembly, I thought that I was seeing some history. The conclusion that I draw from that moment is that the Welsh Assembly is for ever. It is an Assembly of stability and great potential. In any consideration of the order, one has the understanding of where it is going and how it will be best used to the advantage of the people of Wales.
It occurred to me that, having been present at that historic moment for the nation of Wales, I could not see how there would not be more legislative powers in time. I could see the status of the Assembly growing by the year. I could see its importance always advancing and it having more authority and power to raise more moneys, with its standing always growing. I saw the process as irreversible, but I asked myself, “Did the Assembly need to have more Members?”. I then asked myself, “Would this Parliament have fewer Members?”. I do not wish to debate that issue now—nor should I—but I suspect that our nation, Wales, is on track and that the British nation will see something approaching federalism in the decades ahead, whether that should be or not.
None of us, I suggest to the Committee, should be in ignorance of the consequences of what we are doing when we pass these orders for Wales. There is a consequence over and above the use of the order. I sometimes wonder whether Parliaments fully comprehend the consequences of the legislation that they make.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, this has been a positive and constructive debate. I start by thanking all the noble Lords and the noble Baroness for their kind words of welcome and congratulation. I consider it a privilege to be able to engage with noble Lords and, indeed, to re-establish some friendships and acquaintances from my time in the other place, particularly with the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands. Exactly 27 years ago this week—I am an anorak in this sort of thing—I served along with the noble Lord on my first Standing Committee in another place, which was considering the Petroleum Royalties (Relief) Bill. It certainly means a lot to me to be here and to engage with him again.
The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, suggested that I would, over time, get to realise that Welsh politics is different from Scottish politics. The learning curve has been very steep indeed but I had already appreciated that, although I am sure that there is still much more to learn. In fact, with the happy situation of belonging to a federal party along with my noble friends here, we have learnt from one another over a number of years how the body politic functions in different parts of our United Kingdom. I join the noble Lord, Lord Jones, in congratulating the noble Baroness on assuming Front-Bench duties. I rather suspect that there will be a number of occasions when we will be facing each other across the Dispatch Box, either in Grand Committee or in the Chamber, and I very much look forward to those encounters.
I welcome the fact that there has been broad agreement and support for the order. Perhaps I might respond to a number of the points raised. First, the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, made a point about the timing of the laying of the order. She asked why my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary had apparently changed his position. We could always go into forensic detail about what happened when in the weeks of February and March. My understanding is that the order could have been laid before Parliament before the wash-up. It does not necessarily help us today to speculate on why that did not happen. The point is that, after a bit of a troubled history when another order fell foul of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, we have an order today that has commanded support.