Crime and Policing Bill

Lord Katz Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 2nd February 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, I would be grateful for clarification—

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Katz) (Lab)]

Order—that was an intervention.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I have not quite finished.

I understand exactly what the noble Baroness is saying. I was not a criminal judge; I do not think I ever sent a woman to prison, so I am not qualified to speak on those issues. All I am really asking the Committee to reflect on is that we are principally being asked to change the law to support those who are not guilty of offences, and because the police are not behaving as they should.

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[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords—

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

My Lords, it is Committee. Everyone can have a turn, as long as they stick to the speaking limits, so perhaps we could just take it around the Committee.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

I would just be grateful, and I will be brief, to get a clarification—

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (CB)]

Before the Government Whip sits down, could he please remind the Committee that interventions have to be brief and cannot go on into speeches? Can he also remind the Committee that those who have put their names to these amendments should be heard prior to those who have not?

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

First, there are no points of order in our self-regulating House. Secondly, the noble Baroness makes the point about interventions very ably. Thirdly, as I said, there is time for everyone in Committee to both move their amendments and speak to other amendments, so I suggest we just take it in a reasonable order. I will leave it to the Committee to decide who speaks next.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, I will be brief—I would just be grateful for a clarification. I strongly believe in women’s rights, including reproductive rights, and I do not want women in distress subjected to criminal investigation, if at all avoidable. But I am struggling to understand why Clause 191 is considered not to amend the Abortion Act, as the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, among others, asserts. I noted that the noble Baroness, Lady Foster, said it would be “toothless” if Clause 191 is agreed.

If I have understood it properly, people other than the pregnant woman concerned would still be committing a criminal offence if they gave any kind of assistance. That is why it is considered that the Abortion Act 1967 is not in fact amended. The noble Baroness, Lady Hazarika, referred to repealed abortion offences, so we seem to be relying on the fact that only the woman herself would be regarded as decriminalised. I am not generally happy about decriminalisation, such as in relation to drugs. I prefer dotting the “i”s and crossing the “t”s and having legalisation—or not.

Have I understood that correctly? Maybe it is only when we come to the Minister that I will get full clarification as to whether or not we are amending the Abortion Act 1967, which I broadly support, even though it is a compromise. I have never supported the simple but simplistic “a woman’s right to choose”, because there are other considerations. I support the Abortion Act as a compromise on a difficult subject, as I think many people do, but I seek clarification that the Abortion Act is not being amended and that we would simply decriminalise the woman concerned while supposedly leaving the rest of the Abortion Act as it is.

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[Baroness Eaton (Con)]

The noble Baroness has had one intervention, and only one is allowed.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

To be clear, the noble Baroness can take as many or as few interventions as she wishes.

[Baroness Eaton (Con)]

Well, that is not the information that was given earlier, but there we are. I think I have answered the question.

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[Baroness Eaton (Con)]

I have not finished. That was an intervention. Sorry; I have nearly finished.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I ask the noble Baroness to conclude her remarks: it is well over her 10 minutes.

[Baroness Eaton (Con)]

Yes, sorry, it is. I will just read the last paragraph. It is the interventions that have taken time.

Some of these examples may sound fanciful or seem extreme, but the worst consequences of a policy rarely announce themselves plainly at first sight; otherwise, we would always pass perfect laws, and we do not. We would be foolish not to learn from evidence in other jurisdictions. I contend that it would be far wiser to reject Clause 191 altogether. Doing so would protect women—both baby girls in the womb and the mothers who carry them.

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[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, and I respect his expertise, but I think there is a debate about how successful scans are and from what stage. We can debate that on another occasion, but there is evidence that scans can be used successfully. I will not take any more interventions, because my time is running out and I have one more amendment to go through after this.

There is evidence that first-trimester scans are generally safe, non-invasive and commonly used to confirm pregnancy, identifying due date et cetera. At the moment, the requirement is that the medical practitioner believes in good faith that the pregnancy will not exceed 10 weeks when the medicine or the first dose of a course is administered. I contend that the condition stretches the idea of belief and good faith unreasonably widely, so the medical practitioner simply accepts what they are told, perhaps by the pregnant woman who may be speaking in perfectly good faith—we have seen tragic cases of this—but is mistaken, or else that it is only after the gestational age of the baby has been reliably ascertained that the medical practitioner is in a position to believe in good faith that the pregnancy meets the conditions stated. My amendment would not change the Act.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

Would the noble Baroness come to her concluding remarks?

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

I will certainly bring my remarks to a conclusion. I will just briefly introduce my last amendment to Clause 191 if I may because of those interventions and, I have to confess, my loss of notes. Amendment 461K, my last amendment, proposes to—

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[Lord Farmer (Con)]

Well, they are not. Many of us have not been parliamentarians for long, and we have not been at the right schools that have debating societies. If we want to say something important for the good of the common—

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

Order. We need to return to the debate. I suggest that the noble Baroness concludes her remarks imminently so that we can carry on with the debate.

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

My Lords, my Amendment 461K agrees that the people who support this clause say that they are not trying to legalise abortions that would otherwise be illegal. If that were to happen, it would be extremely important to ensure that proper mechanisms exist for prosecuting the party culpable—that is to say, the abortion provider—so that they are not above the law or beyond the reach of the law. We should not forget that, for the most part, it is non-medical clinics that provide around 80% of abortions, with taxpayers funding the bill. Like all service providers—

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

The noble Baroness has had a lot of the Committee’s indulgence. We will take that as her finishing.

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (CB)]

My Lords, I think the noble Baroness was in danger of no longer wishing to be heard. That is where the Committee was moving. When the Whips tell us to conclude, we really should conclude.

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[Baroness Maclean of Redditch (Con)]

My Lords, I am speaking late in the debate and others have made many points. I just want to speak to the amendments in my name in this group and say a few brief words about the stand part notice from the noble Baroness, Lady Monckton, to which I am a signatory. I also support the amendments in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Bailey and Lord Jackson, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Stroud, Lady Eaton and Lady Lawlor.

I consider myself very fortunate to have never had an abortion, and I wonder how many of us in your Lordships’ House have actually had one. I want to make it clear that I do not oppose abortion altogether. No woman would choose an abortion lightly, and I fully recognise the points that have been raised about the distress of police investigations for women at that time in their lives. But we owe it to ourselves and to the women affected to be honest about the reality of what we are discussing.

In 2022, 260 abortions in England and Wales took place at or beyond 24 weeks’ gestation. These abortions must be performed in NHS hospitals. The woman is awake—she goes through actual labour, including painful contractions; she will deliver a fully formed infant via a vaginal delivery. We may wonder whether every woman going through this is fortunate enough to be in a bereavement suite with specialist care, or will she be in the next room to someone delivering a healthy baby? At 24 weeks, a baby is 12 inches long, weighing about 1.5 pounds, with a fully formed face. The NHS website tells us that at 32 weeks, an unborn baby is perfectly formed and just needs to put on weight. Once delivered, we wonder what happens to the infant. They are classified as clinical waste to be incinerated; at earlier gestations, women are advised that they can take the remains home, bury them in the garden, flush them down the toilet or place them in household rubbish.

There is no extensive research on the long-term emotional impact on women of late-term abortions, but natural human empathy tells us that this must carry significant emotional impact and distress. My heart goes out to those who are in this position because of foetal abnormalities, but I ask your Lordships whether extending this experience to any point in pregnancy, including up to full term, is truly in the interests of women and girls, many of whom are victims of reproductive coercion, domestic abuse, child rape, trafficking or modern slavery, when we have so little understanding of the long-term effects.

In fact, there is complete silence around late-term abortions. It is a taboo subject associated with complex feelings. There is hardly any information about what it actually involves or how it will impact women and their bodies. Removing any legal deterrent, as this clause does, means that we put more women in a world of scary and unsafe unknowns, and we leave our public services to pick up the pieces without any plan. These are almost certainly not women with significant resources, resilient mental health or strong support systems. We are leaving the most vulnerable at greater risk of exploitation.

I come at this, respectfully, from a totally different perspective from that of the noble Baroness, Lady Hazarika, and others, because we know that abuse often takes the form of reproductive coercion, as the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, explained in the case of Stuart Worby, and we know that this is a pattern for grooming gang victims as well. I fully accept that this is not the design or intent of the policy, but it very much is the unintended consequence. How many of us can genuinely say that we always pass perfect laws without unintended consequences? It is not the case. This situation could happen via the pills by post scheme, or by coercion or other reasons.

Those who support this clause present it as a feminist fight for women’s rights, and accuse those of us on the other side of the debate of ignoring the suffering of women. They tell us this radical law change is necessary because dozens of women are facing life in prison under a Victorian law. But almost every part of this claim is questionable. The law in question, the Offences against the Person Act 1861, may be old, but it is still the basis of our laws today against GBH and manslaughter, and nobody would suggest that they are obsolete. The idea that women are facing life in prison is also fanciful. The one high-profile conviction in recent years under the Offences against the Person Act resulted in a short prison sentence that was suspended on appeal. As for the numbers, the groups who are campaigning for this tell us that six women have been prosecuted over the past three years. Given that there are now almost 300,000 abortions a year, it is hard to see why this justifies such a significant change. Of course, it is regrettable if there are women who have been wrongly investigated, but that is a police matter. We do not disapply other laws simply because people are sometimes wrongly investigated. It is critical that we make the distinction between babies who would and would not be viable outside the womb; that is why we have the 24-week limit.

The Member in another place who tabled Clause 191, Tonia Antoniazzi, is on record as saying in an interview that she was comfortable with women being able to abort at 37 weeks without committing an offence. Are people really comfortable with passing a law that means a woman could abort at full term for any reason without committing an offence, as would be the effect of this clause?

Many have spoken about the dangers of telemedicine, so I will not expand on that, but we discussed that in the assisted dying debate. Under that Bill, two doctors would at least have to make sure that the person applying for an assisted death was actually terminally ill by examining relevant records. But the pills by post scheme permits women to obtain abortion pills with no reliable way of ascertaining whether they are under the limit before which it is legal and safe to take pills or even pregnant at all.

I turn briefly to my Amendments 459B and 461G. While I sincerely hope that this Committee will support the stand part notice from the noble Baroness, Lady Monckton, in case it does not, I have tabled Amendment 459B to introduce a sunset clause requiring the Secretary of State to renew the legislation after each of the first three years. The related Amendment 502A is to make the regulations in proposed new subsection (3) subject to the affirmative procedure. In so doing, it encourages awareness and scrutiny of the provision and provides an opportunity to reverse the effects of Clause 191, should the consequences be as I fear.

I have also tabled Amendment 461G, which would require an annual report concerning abortion drugs that have been obtained illegally, maybe online, which I worry will become more likely under Clause 191. Of course, this need not relate solely to women considering an abortion themselves—it might relate to third parties or traffickers who obtain pills illegally to coerce an abortion or cover up abuse. It establishes ongoing transparency and oversight concerning what I fear will increasingly become a matter of public health and a safeguarding concern.

I should mention that I was unable to table any amendments to require the Government to collect numbers of pills by post that are issued or to require that this is captured on women’s medical records because those issues are not in the scope of the Bill. I would be grateful, therefore, if the Minister would look at those issues because I think they are very important.

There is a genuine worry that with the numbers of abortions rising and young women turning to that option more frequently, the future consequences for their reproductive health are simply unknown. We have many noble Lords in this House who practise medicine, yet we could see women coming to them and not disclosing that they have taken pills by post in the past. The cases that have led to the clamour for decriminalisation up to birth have resulted from pills by post and the inability to ensure that safeguards are maintained. Taking these pills outside the 10-week gestational limit is a dangerous course of action. The Department for Health and Social Care consultation found that the risks of this would include an ongoing viable pregnancy, reduced efficacy of abortions and death. I hope the House will consider my amendments as additional safeguards for women and girls, and I commend them to the House.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

My Lords, I am afraid it is clear that there are still a number of Back-Benchers who wish to speak on these amendments as well as the Front-Benchers, so I now propose to adjourn the debate on Amendment 455, move to dinner break business and then resume the debate on the Bill. I advise your Lordships’ House that notice has been taken of those who are here for the debate on Amendment 455, so when we resume, we will be able to continue the debate in an orderly fashion.

House resumed. Committee to begin again not before 8.22 pm.

Environmental Targets (Public Authorities) Bill [HL]

Lord Katz Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 13th June 2025 Lords Chamber

His Majesty’s Official Opposition believe that we must be careful not to impose obligations that exceed the remit and capability of the bodies in question. Our shared commitment to environmental improvement must be matched by pragmatism and clarity of purpose. We must look to build on the frameworks we already have in place and strengthen them where necessary, but avoid burdening public bodies in ways that may hinder rather than help our collective goals.

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Katz) (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, on his Private Member’s Bill, and thank him and all noble Lords who took part in the debate on Amendment 1. I look forward to hearing the noble Lord’s remarks shortly. He rightly highlights through his Bill, and his contributions so far during its passage through your Lordships’ House, the intertwined issues of environmental decline and climate change, on which this House must continue to engage.

As my noble friend Lady Hayman of Ullock has noted, the intention of the Bill to drive and strengthen public authority action towards meeting national, environmental and climate targets and objectives is important. Of this the Government are in no doubt. Encouraging nature’s recovery is a key priority, fundamental to the Government’s approach to economic growth. However, at the risk of repeating my noble friend’s comments at Second Reading, there are already measures in place seeking to realise this Bill’s ambition.

For example, we expect that the Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act’s biodiversity duty, strengthened through the Environment Act, will ensure public authorities make conservation and enhancement of biodiversity a core part of the delivery of their functions. Local nature recovery strategies will set the strategic priorities for nature recovery in an area and identify the best locations for land management actions to deliver those priorities. These are progressing well, and we expect most or all to be published this year or shortly after, covering the length and breadth of England.

On climate adaptations, England’s third national adaptation programme, NAP3, summarises the collective actions the Government are taking to address risks and opportunities from climate change and to ensure that adaptation is incorporated into government programmes. Recently, through the Water (Special Measures) Act, this Government introduced a requirement on Ofwat to have regard to the need to contribute to achieving targets in the Environment Act 2021 and the Climate Change Act 2008 when carrying out its functions. We intend to strengthen the statutory purposes of protected landscapes, our most iconic and inspiring places, to give them a clear mandate to recover nature and to widen the public’s access to it.

This Government are firmly committed to working collaboratively to improve the natural environment. As we have already heard in noble Lords’ contributions this afternoon, the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs wasted no time in announcing a rapid review of the statutory environmental improvement plan, and we will publish a revised EIP this year. This revised plan will focus on cleaning up our waterways, reducing waste across the economy, planting millions more trees, improving air quality and halting the decline in species by 2030. To answer the question posed by my noble friend Lady Young of Old Scone on wider alignment, there are already measures in place to realise the Bill’s ambitions through this collection of actions.

Further, on net zero, the Government will deliver an updated plan that sets out the policy package to the end of carbon budget 6 in 2037 for all sectors by October 2025. This will outline the policies and proposals needed to deliver carbon budgets 4 to 6 and our nationally determined contribution commitments on a pathway to net zero.

The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, effectively proposes the removal of climate adaptation from the remit of this Bill. I agree with my noble friend Lady Young of Old Scone and the noble Earl, Lord Russell, that the noble Lord’s speech seemed more focused on net-zero targets than climate adaptation, which is the focus of his amendment.

Climate adaptation is essential for supporting our natural environment and biodiversity, as the Bill from the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, recognises, as well as protecting our communities and economy. Climate change is now an inevitable part of our present and future, posing many challenges with severe impacts on our lives, health and prosperity. It is therefore essential that we continue to adapt to climate change, not only for the environment’s sake but to reduce its significant economic and growth impacts. As my noble friend Lady Hayman of Ullock made clear at Second Reading, this Government are fully committed to addressing net zero and the role that climate change plays, as summarised in NAP3.

I will briefly address the points the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, made about net zero. The British people deserve lower-cost, clean and secure power—we are all in agreement on that—and the good jobs that will come along with that. Certainly, it is the role of all Governments to protect us from the long-term threats we face in energy security. The economic case, the national security case and the environmental case all point in the same direction, which is our clean green energy mission that will protect the country from exposure to unstable international markets and give greater security and stability to both family and national finances in terms of energy costs. We will achieve this through delivering clean power by 2030 and accelerating to net zero. Our mission will bring energy security, protect bill payers, create good jobs and help protect future generations from the costs of climate breakdown.

The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, spoke with passion and knowledge about the importance of engaging every level of society—local authorities, businesses, individuals and other stakeholder groups—in our mission to tackle climate adaptation and pursue net zero. Defra and DESNZ are working on a public participation strategy. The noble Baroness made some well-observed comments about the importance of engagement at all levels of society and I will take that back to colleagues in both departments.

In conclusion, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, for bringing this Bill to the House and enabling this debate, and I look forward to hearing his comments.

[Lord Krebs (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register—in particular, as the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Epsom, has already mentioned, that I chair the independent advisory group on sustainability for the Drax Group.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, for meeting me to discuss the Bill and the noble Lord, Lord Katz, for discussing it with me just a couple of days ago. I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. It was heartening to hear support for the Bill from all sides of the House, although there were some voices of scepticism. It is important to recognise that the environment and climate are not partisan issues; they are things that affect future generations. We are concerned about it for the future of our children, grandchildren and future generations in general. I thank the noble Earl, Lord Effingham, for his kind words about me personally.

When I read Amendment 1 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Epsom, its purpose was not clear to me. As others have said, including the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone and Lady Coffey, the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and the Minister, it removes the adaptation element of the environmental recovery objective by deleting lines seven and eight of Clause 1. It also removes the environmental recovery objective itself by deleting lines nine to 11. As others have pointed out, without this objective, the rest of the Bill would make no sense, as it is all about how the listed public authorities deliver the environmental recovery objective. I was therefore tempted to conclude that the noble Lord intended it as a wrecking amendment. However, I now understand that the amendment is based on scepticism about achieving the targets in the Environment Act and, particularly, the net-zero target of the Climate Change Act.

In other words, the amendment is not directed at my Bill, but at these two Acts of Parliament. I could rebut in detail the arguments made about net zero by the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, but because I believe the amendment is out of scope, I prefer not to engage in the detail. I suggest that if the noble Lord objects to the net-zero target passed by the previous Conservative Government, it would be more appropriate to try to change that Act rather than this Bill.

It is therefore perhaps worth restating what this Bill is about, and some of these points have already been made. It introduces an objective for the many public authorities, regulators, land managers, infrastructure providers, planning authorities and so on to contribute to the specific targets in the Environment Act and the Climate Change Act. As the noble Earl, Lord Russell, said, these public authorities are the bodies that make the daily decisions that affect the state of our environment, our resilience to climate change and our greenhouse gas footprint. In fact, the truth is that, without the contributions of these public authorities, there is no hope of meeting the targets—a point made by a number of noble Lords.

I will briefly allude to local authorities, since they were mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, and the noble Lord, Lord Jamieson, among others. It is worth noting that, in spite of what has been said, on Wednesday this week the LGA published its position on my Bill, in which it said it is in principle in favour of a statutory climate duty. There you have it: the LGA, which represents local authorities, supports the intention of this Bill.

The Minister has said that the Government are not going accept the Bill, although they agree with the principles in it. However, I point out that the Government have recently said that they will

“clarify how the environmental improvement plan will be delivered, including the role of government departments and bodies, environmental NGOs, businesses, farmers, landowners/managers, local government and the public”.

This Bill should be a godsend. It provides the clarity that the Government is seeking on how to deliver the environmental improvement plan.

Furthermore, two recent reports, commissioned by Defra, also point in the same direction as my Bill. The interim Cunliffe report, on the water sector, concludes that

“the sector needs a clearer and more consistent long-term direction—one that aligns environmental ambition, the provision of water supply and wastewater removal, and the expectations of customers … We believe the legislative framework that underpins the sector must be revisited”,

which is what this Bill is in part doing. The report goes on to mention resilience and adaptation.

The Corry review of the regulatory system in Defra states that the system is now

“inefficient and difficult for customers to navigate. It needs to work in a fundamentally different way, to become a system focused on delivering positive outcomes for nature and the environment and to be an aid not an impediment to sustainable growth”.

So there you have it. The Government’s own plans for the environmental improvement plan and the two reviews that Defra, commissioned by Cunliffe and Corry, all point in the same direction as my Bill: make the regulatory regime simpler, clearer and more effective. At the same time, ensure that public authorities are helping to deliver the specific legally binding targets for nature and climate.

During the debate, the Minister and other noble Lords referred to a number of existing initiatives: for example, the biodiversity duty that the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, mentioned; the local nature recovery strategies that a number of noble Lords referred to; the devolution framework, which has been implicit, although not specifically referred to; and the protected landscapes targets and outcomes framework, referred to by the noble Earl, Lord Effingham, among others. These initiatives are, without doubt, important, but they could be enhanced by specific guidance on timelines for meeting the targets in the two Acts. The biodiversity duty, for instance, has the rather weak guidance:

“Consider what you can do to conserve and enhance biodiversity. Agree policies and specific objectives based on your consideration. Act to deliver your policies and achieve your objectives”.


There is no link to the Environment Act or the Climate Change Act, so we could strengthen the guidance for those duties.

To summarise, my three asks of the Government in the future, would be—

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[The Earl of Effingham (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 2, tabled by my noble friend Lord Trenchard, seeks to remove Great British Nuclear, now re-named Great British Energy-Nuclear, from the scope of this Bill. In adding this amendment, my noble friend recognises the unique role of nuclear energy in our national energy strategy. He cautions against implementing duplicative regulatory burdens that could hinder the progress of a key part of the nation’s energy infrastructure.

Nuclear power is already one of the most tightly regulated industries in the UK, subject to the most stringent environmental and safety standards. The existing framework ensures that nuclear development aligns with our broader environmental goals without the need for additional oversight. Imposing further targets through this Bill may simply add another layer of unnecessary obligations, delaying projects that are critical to our energy security and His Majesty’s Government’s net-zero ambitions.

We must confront the reality that nuclear energy is different from other forms of power generation. The upfront costs are substantial, the lead times are long, investors and operators need stability and clarity, not shifting regulatory sands that might deter investment. If we are serious about expanding nuclear capacity, as His Majesty’s Government say they are, we must avoid measures that might make those projects even more challenging to deliver.

We do not believe that this amendment weakens our commitment to the environment. On the contrary, it recognises that nuclear energy is already a low-carbon, reliable baseload power source that will be indispensable as we transition from fossil fuels. By exempting Great British Nuclear from the Bill, we are not rolling back environmental safeguards but ensuring that nuclear can fulfil its vital role to society without the risk of being impacted by well-intentioned but ultimately unnecessary additional regulation.

We urge your Lordships’ House to carefully consider the amendment. A laser focus on delivering clean, secure and affordable energy, which is already highly regulated by experts, will pay dividends for future generations of this country.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, for his amendment. He made some points about the new formation of Great British Energy-Nuclear. I am afraid that some of the detail that he asked for regarding the corporate structure of that body is a little beyond my bailiwick, so I undertake to write to him with more detail.

However, let me reassure the noble Viscount that Great British Energy-Nuclear, as it is now called, will continue to drive forward the UK small modular reactor programme as part of this Government’s commitment to net zero and mission to make the UK a clean energy superpower. I agree with the comments made by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, in relation to the amendment and its contribution to the Bill, and I have already spoken at some length in my comments on the previous amendment about the Government’s commitment to making the UK a clean energy superpower.

After the spending review this week and the commitments that we have made not just to the SMR programme but to Sizewell C, we can be in no doubt that this is the biggest nuclear rollout for a generation, and we see nuclear as very much a part of creating that clean energy superpower. For the sake of brevity, I will leave my comments at that.

[Lord Krebs (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, for bringing forward this amendment and all noble Lords who have taken part in this very short debate. I will not speak at length, because I can make my point very briefly.

At Second Reading, I pointed out that there are two classic objections to the proposals in my Bill: on the one hand, they are unnecessary; on the other, they are too burdensome. Both cannot be true at the same time. Yet it seemed to me that in the debate we have just had, the point was made that the nuclear industry, of which I am in full support, is very tightly regulated, therefore, this additional layer of regulation is unnecessary. On the other hand, we heard that this additional layer of regulation would be too burdensome and impose duties on the nuclear industry that would discourage investment. Both simply cannot be true. If it is doing it anyway, it cannot be burdensome; if it is not doing it anyway, maybe it needs a bit of extra burden.

In truth, when we look at what the Government’s website says about GBE-N, we see that it says that it will deliver the Government’s long-term nuclear energy programme and support the UK’s energy security and contribute to our net-zero targets—so tick the box, job done. It is already contributing to net zero.

One of the other tasks that GBE-N will have, alongside the competition to build up to three SMRs, is, along with Rolls-Royce, to choose the sites where the SMRs are to be built. Those choices will have environmental implications. It seems to me perfectly reasonable, when those choices are made, that they should reflect the targets in the Environment Act. If they were clearly going to be detrimental to the target of reversing the decline in species diversity by 2030, it would be reasonable for GBE-N and Rolls-Royce to be asked to think again.

So, although I have heard an argument for removing GBE-N from the list of public authorities, I am not convinced by it—although I will take it away and think about it further. In the meantime, I very much hope that the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, will withdraw his amendment.

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We believe that the issues raised in this amendment merit close and thoughtful consideration about the role of arm’s-length bodies in helping us to meet our legally binding environmental targets. We hope that all Benches in your Lordships’ House will carefully consider whether the trust’s significant environmental responsibilities can be reflected within the broader framework of this Bill.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Evans, for his amendment to include the Canal & River Trust in the list of authorities in Clause 2(2). I also pay some tribute to his creative way of raising concerns about the stewardship of the Canal & River Trust, such as the removal of litter bins and other associated issues relating to its environmental responsibilities. I will certainly bring his comments to the attention of my colleague, Minister Hardy, who has responsibility for the Canal & River Trust in the department.

The Canal & River Trust is an invaluable organisation with which Defra and other government departments work closely. The Government will continue to collaborate with the trust to ensure that its efforts are best directed and realised, to improve and protect the natural environment for the public. For the sake of brevity and the progress of business, I will leave it at that.

[Lord Krebs (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Rainow, for raising this question and all those who took part in this short debate. I have the good fortune to live in central Oxford, very close to the Oxford Canal. Indeed, when I set off this morning, I did my usual 10-minute walk down the canal towpath from my house to Oxford station. The canal in Oxford, together with its canal banks, forms a wonderful corridor for wildlife, leading right into the city centre. I often see a heron fishing on one of the weirs and occasionally glimpse the iridescent blue of a kingfisher flying past. In the winter, I see groups of goosander that have migrated south for the winter from Scotland or Scandinavia.

I am lucky. Unlike in the examples cited by the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Rainow, in my neighbourhood the canal towpath is well maintained and litter free. I very much wish that were true of the rest of the canal network. In fact, my only complaint about the canal in Oxford is a rather different one: a number of residential canal boats—already referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Evans—are allowed to burn dirty solid fuel, which would not be allowed in other residences. I wish the Government would do something about this. After all, one of the six key targets in the Environment Act is to cut exposure to the most harmful air pollutant to human health, PM2.5. The canal boats could be a good starting point for reducing that pollution exposure.

In principle, I think it would be very good to add the Canal & River Trust to the list. However, this is now above my pay grade because I do not fully understand the position of the CRT. As the noble Earl, Lord Russell, said, and I looked it up myself, it is a registered charity and therefore governed by the Charity Commission and not subject to the same regulations as public authorities. I assume it would have to change its charitable objects in order to comply with the intention of this Bill, so I would like to take it away and understand it. In the meantime, I very much hope that the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Rainow, will see fit to withdraw his amendment, recognising that it has had a very sympathetic hearing from all around the House.

Before I sit down, I once again thank all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate this afternoon. I have not mentioned the Wildlife and Countryside Link and Green Alliance, which were very helpful in preparing the material for this Bill. I particularly thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, for agreeing to continue the discussion of how the ideas in the Bill can be taken forward.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Young of Old Scone and Lady Parminter, have already mentioned that there are two routes ahead of us. We all agree with the intention of the Bill, plus or minus some points. I take the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Epsom, and the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, and we all agree in general with the principle of improving our environment. The two routes that the Government have are either to accept that there will be piecemeal chipping away as Bills come forward and people try to achieve amendments, which is inefficient and time-consuming, or they could do it at one fell swoop very simply by accepting the Bill that I have proposed.