Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill

Debate between Lord Lucas and Baroness Sheehan

Committee stage
Wednesday 7th February 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, for tabling this amendment, to which I have added my name, as I did to a similar amendment that she tabled to the Financial Services and Markets Bill. I apologise to the Committee for not being available to speak at Second Reading.

I put my name to this amendment because votes reporting is an important issue of openness and transparency that underpins good stewardship and good governance, without which the road to net zero and our nature goals becomes that much more chaotic. At this point I should declare my interest as a director of Peers for the Planet.

As things currently stand, at AGMs investment managers vote on behalf of the pension funds they manage on issues that pension savers may have concerns about. Some, if not most, savers would prefer to know what their money is signed up to, and they cannot easily find out what their money is supporting, nor can pension schemes. This is because there is zero meaningful onus on investment managers to report their actions in a full, timely and easily digestible format, and that is important as the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, highlighted. The outcome is that pension schemes do not have the information to inform their savers, and it is for this reason that the amendment has support from the Association of Member Nominated Trustees, which has £1 trillion of assets under management.

In the US, it is mandatory. There, voting at AGMs is a key tool in ensuring good corporate governance, good long-term investor returns and good economic outcomes more broadly. What assessment have the Government made of America’s way of including people in decisions made in their name about their money? Why is it that in a relatively light-touch regime that is doable, but here it is not? Why is it that UK investment managers can comply with US rules when they operate in the US but find it too burdensome to do it here? The Government say that they see the need for action, but we see no action year after year. This amendment would enable pension schemes and ultimately pension savers more effectively to hold their investment managers to account for action on climate and nature, as well as on other matters.

I fully support the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, in what she is aiming to do, and I add the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, who has put her name to the amendment. She asked me to convey her apologies to the Committee for not being present; she is not feeling well enough to have stayed to the current late hour.

I hope that once we hear from the Labour Party we will be able to say that the amendment has cross-party support.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I very much support this amendment. We are a capitalist society, and capitalism relies on a return on capital being provided to the people who provide the capital. In that sense, our capital has become very concentrated in institutional hands. Decisions are taken by a cadre of fund managers, of whom I used to be one—well-paid people who thoroughly approve of people in industries being well paid, particularly senior managers. More and more of the profits of industry are diverted to the people running them and to the people running the investments in them, and the amount getting through to the individual investor becomes limited.

What is the force in any other direction? What is the motivation for people running a company to do more than please their fund managers? They do not have to have the interest of the individual owners at the end of this. In the end, this results in bad decisions being taken on the allocation of capital and on the flow of money within a corporation. These will not be in the interests of paying the pensions of the people whose money is invested in these companies.

Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill

Debate between Lord Lucas and Baroness Sheehan

Committee stage
Monday 22nd May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I very much support the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. My amendment is directed at commercial premises. When I stand on the top of the Downs above Eastbourne and look down, I see several hundred acres of white commercial roofs and associated car parks, and there is, I think, one building in that lot which has solar panels on. The reasons for this are entirely structural; they are to do with the difficulties of negotiating between the people using the building, the people who own it and the people who want to handle the electricity that is generated.

I supported the carrot in the Energy Bill—the local energy proposals—to try to get things going and give people a decent price for the energy they are generating. However, we cannot leave commercial spaces untouched if we are to take solar seriously. It is ridiculous to cover farmland with solar panels when industrial roofs and car parks are going uncovered. A carrot having been proposed in the Energy Bill, this is my proposal for a stick. This is something to enable local authorities to get things moving, and to give local landlords and building occupiers a real incentive to come on board a scheme.

After all, these premises are the places where electricity is used in the middle of a sunny day, so they ought to have solar panels to supply directly the energy they need for freezers, charging visiting cars or whatever else. They are the big energy users in the middle of the day, and they ought to have solar panels, and we ought to be pushing that.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

My Lords, I should declare my interest as a director of Peers for the Planet. I shall address the two amendments in my name. I strongly support the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, but, in the interests of time, I shall limit my remarks on them.

Residential and commercial buildings together contribute about 25% of the UK’s greenhouse gas emissions, and figures from the Climate Change Committee tell us that the UK has more than 2.5 million homes and another 1.9 million other buildings—offices, hospitals, shops, et cetera. The majority of those are heated by gas boilers, which also provide hot water, and the bulk of the rest use petroleum.

The Climate Change Committee also tells us that we cannot reach net zero if we continue to use gas for heat, so changing how we heat our homes and buildings is essential to reach net zero. Ending our reliance on gas can also help to reduce the cost of living through lower energy bills—something that should give us all pause for thought during debates on the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill, and I know it has already been mentioned by several speakers. When we add to that the estimated quarter of a million extra jobs that will be needed, relevance to the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill just increases.

The Government should be given credit for introducing the future homes standard, which aims to ensure that new homes built before 2025 will produce 75% to 80% less carbon emissions than homes built under the current building regulations. The heat and buildings strategy states that from 2025 gas boilers will be banned from all new buildings and from 2035 boilers will start to be phased out from existing buildings. As far as we know, that is still the Government’s plan.

The question then is: what will replace gas boilers? My Amendments 504GJK and 504GJL are asking the Government to apply a bit of scientific rigour to answer that question and to be guided by objective evidence as we take these momentous decisions on major changes to our infrastructure that will be with us for the next several generations.

The facts are that there are plans for a hydrogen village pilot. There has already been a heat pump pilot, albeit nearly all air source, which is different and has been shown to be 40% less energy efficient than ground source heat pumps. There have also been various central plant district heating demonstrator projects. That is all excellent, and to be applauded, but there is no plan to pilot networked ground source heat pumps, and that is a gaping gap. A demonstrator pilot is sorely needed, because although networked heat pumps have plenty in common with individual heat pumps and with district heating, and often get lumped in with one or the other, the reality is that networked heat pumps is a very different approach and need to be assessed and evaluated on its own merits.

What is it? A ground source heat pump—which I shall refer to as a GSHP—network works by installing shared network pipework containing water for multiple homes to connect to, as opposed to each home needing the space for its individual ground source heat pump. The under-street network absorbs heat from the ground at a near constant year-round 10 degrees centigrade, and applies it to each home’s heat pump, where it is condensed and increased to the heat required for space heating and hot water. It is worth noting here that in most homes, the heat pump unit will be smaller than a gas boiler.

In a GSHP network, the infrastructure is owned and paid for by a third party, with each home paying an annual fixed network fee. The best way to think about a GSHP network is that the infrastructure reflects the gas grids we currently have, which are owned by utilities, and we would in the same way pay to connect to a heat network. Ground source heat pump networks have the potential to reach parts that other heating solutions cannot.